The Dialogues To Come - Gundam 00 Discussion, Speculation & Info (SPOILERS)

[Taekmkm]

'Oh, well, it would probably be in the form of a military dictatorship because, you know, that's the only kind of government that could supress dissention with any possible success while still carrying on the plan to...'

'Yeaaaah you're losing me but go on, what's your end game here?'

'To get people into space.'

'... Yeah we're done here.'

What? Aeolia's plan is not military dictatorship, nor getting people into space. They're already in space. This isn't like Char doing whatever because "People's souls are dragged down by gravity" or some repeated crap.

These people are funding Celestial Being for other reasons. Like a secret society of the elite. I doubt a single person, judging from Wang and Alexandro's actions, actually want what you're describing. They're also not in it for money, but power, technology, and other things. For example, it's not too easy to anex a middle-eastern country unless you say send a few Gundams to battle in it, then "rescue" it like Alexandro did. Or be part of the Solar Furnace war long enough to backdoor sell the GN Drives to the very military they're fighting for their own gain.

It's very believable if human nature of wanting more is their motivation, not some hokey peace that Aeolia pretends to spout.

[Unwardil]

Originally Posted by Taekmkm

What? Aeolia's plan is not military dictatorship, nor getting people into space. They're already in space. This isn't like Char doing whatever because "People's souls are dragged down by gravity" or some repeated crap.

These people are funding Celestial Being for other reasons. Like a secret society of the elite. I doubt a single person, judging from Wang and Alexandro's actions, actually want what you're describing. They're also not in it for money, but power, technology, and other things. For example, it's not too easy to anex a middle-eastern country unless you say send a few Gundams to battle in it, then "rescue" it like Alexandro did. Or be part of the Solar Furnace war long enough to backdoor sell the GN Drives to the very military they're fighting for their own gain.

It's very believable if human nature of wanting more is their motivation, not some hokey peace that Aeolia pretends to spout.

No... No... LISTEN DAMNIT!

Celestial being is the off shoot of the plot hole. The Plot hole is Aeolia himself. HE is the very old one. HE is the one who never would have been able to project his conspiracy so far into the future because HE is the one who would never have been able to convince people of the validity of his plan for 2 minutes let alone for 120 years.

Aeolia created the Co-ordina- Newtyp- Enablers... Whatever they call them, the people who don't age and can link with VEDA but there are FAR TOO FEW OF THEM to have been able to keep the whole thing going as long as it has, not to mention the fact that they would have needed accomplices in the regular world, A LOT OF THEM.

All those accomplices need funding, and they need a lot of money to pay other people to get stuff done. All this stuff leaves traces which in turn need to be erased by still more people who require upkeep and yada yada yada. It's not feasible on a financial level, let alone the fact that no one AT THE INITIAL STAGES would ever IF THEY HAD A BRAIN IN THIER HEAD ever be convinced of the validity of the project.

And yes, if Aeolia Shenberg believes that military intervention can bring peace, if he truely believes that, then he is talking about setting up a military autocracy. That is the implication of celestial being, it is the ultimate form of might makes right.

[Taekmkm]

But he never believed in peace, that's what I'm trying to say. United =/= peace. The Empire in Star Wars was united, but it sure as hell wasn't peace.

You mean the Innovades? There's a LOT more than you think there are, and they have VEDA's access. I ask again, do you realize how powerful that thing is? That thing alone is the reason why Ribbons has so much power over the world.

And I'm just going to spoil this because I don't think it's ever mentioned in the show itself.

Ribbons kills off Celestial Being's illuminati council thing. He's got the funding of the 3 governments under VEDA's bargaining now. Essentially, the only Celestial Being is Setsuna's crew.

[Unwardil]

No, I know, I'm like 7 episodes from the end now.

What none of it addresses is the fact that if Shenberg's idea first came into being over 120 years before the events of 00 ever take place... How in the hell did he ever get it to work to the point where celestial being ever got off the ground?

And Shenberg only made the one Innovator, Ribbons made all the rest of them, presumably after Shenberg was dead because he is a subversion of the original plan all by himself.

So what we know to be likely is that Ribbons is as old as the plan.

We also know that Aeolia Shenberg didn't actually die but pulled a Walt Disney on everyone.

It follows that at the time of Aeolia's freezing, Ribbons was still pretending as if he was going along with the plan.

All three of those follow logically?

Now, first off let's consider what would be nessecary to build a quantum computer of such enourmous power that even 120 years after it's construction, it still makes all other machines look obsolete? There's plot hole number 1 already because that computer would have had to have been built by engineers. A lot of them. Keeping them silent would mean either paying them a whole spit pile of money or having them off-ed, probably both. Who do you get to off them, how do you keep them from sharing thier findings for vast amounts of personal profit in the mean time? The conspiracy grows ten fold.

All these people need also to be kept silent and they must either be motivated by personal gain or idiology. I already explained how the idiology thing isn't going to fly with rationally minded people but then there's the issue again of the 120 years going by.

I mean, do you know how long 120 years is in the scientific world? It's a huge span of time.

Now, I know the show addresses the disapearance of notable scientists at the time 120 years ago but how do you get from 120 years ago to the present without an awful lot of unknowable stuff happening in the mean time? You can't predict what you're not having an effect on unless again, in those 120 years Aeolia is also steering world events from beyond the grave and how do you logically justify THAT?!

[Taekmkm]

If we're including what is a modern take on our world with space elevators, there's a far lot more things going on that I can understand was glossed over the Shenberg scientists gone missing.

"We just made a super computer!"

"Um, we just solved the world's energy problem."

Obviously this isn't how it goes, but I'm illustrating how minimized everything else must've been when the elevators were being set up. In that sense, offing (although I doubt it) people unrelated to the Space Elevator project is highly possible of not being noticed, when funding, cooperation, merchandise, etc. was based around the thing.

The constant upgrades to VEDA over time I figure is Ribbon's doing.

Isn't Tiera different, though?

[Mr. Anime]

Unwardil, the second to last episode of the series will answer your problem of what Aeolia hoped to accomplish and HOW he ment to do it.

[airfighter]

The end of the show should clear up a few things, though after going over the last few pages I can't help but conclude that the main factor here is suspension of disbelief. If you don't have enough, then this debate could easily go on even after the 00 movie comes out.

[Unwardil]

Originally Posted by airfighter

The end of the show should clear up a few things, though after going over the last few pages I can't help but conclude that the main factor here is suspension of disbelief. If you don't have enough, then this debate could easily go on even after the 00 movie comes out.

Well, then in that case, I'd just say 00 shoots it's self in the foot a bit when it grounds all the other aspects of the show (Less the actually titular gundams and mobile suits of course) in pretty solid probability.

You know, things like vibro weapons causing everyone to cover thier ears, stray fire taking out buildings oh, and of course the oribital elevator purge which was a wickedly fun scene btw, those whole couple of episodes involving the second orbital laser are easilly my favorites so far, but because it takes all these aspects into consideration it actually makes it harder to suspend disbelief on the whole Aeolia thing.

Meh, as I say, it does enough other things well that once that's no longer a major part of the show I love it.


Edit:

Well, now I've seen the whole thing and... No, that didn't make the plan any less ridiculous... more vague perhaps, though the version I was watching seemed to actually skip entirely over the explination so, don't know if that was intentional or not...

But from what I can deduce, not only did Aeolia want to erradicate conflict but... Build a mothership to send humanity out to the stars and communicate with aliens as well as forcing a new stage of human evolution...

So going by those assumptions...

Aeolia is not only more deluded than the most radical of Scientologists but he severly lacks any understanding about how evolution works, or indeed, how life it's self works. Also, what research was he basing the idea that constant exposure to GN particles would trigger genetic alterations that would be beneficial and not fatal, to the extent he was able to predict this metamorphosis over 100 years after his own death?

NO ONE IS SEEING THE MASSIVE PLOT HOLE HERE?

And also...

If his goals were just to make a secret space ship and a new form of humanity... Why did he even need stage 1 and 2 of his insane plan at all? What was the point of the military interventions and the governmental unification, what purpose does it serve to the end goal? NOTHING!

All this I could forgive of course if it weren't for the very central idea that Aeolia Shenberg was supposed to be some kind of super genius which is how he made the money in the frst place to put his insane plan into action... Which he's clearly NOT due to the fact that he is so monstrously deluded.

[GWOtaku]

So they're apparently remaking Dynames for the movie. Some of the sketches in the movie trailer depict a "Dynames Repair" model that uses a GN condenser.

My inner fan is pleased, although I do wonder if this is less of a practical decision and more of an acknowledgment that Dynames was awesome. I'm curious to see the how it's used.

[HellCat]

I still say Feldt should get it. That or Setsuna. Either way she gets to ride a Gundam.

[Gatomon41]

Originally Posted by HellCat

I still say Feldt should get it. That or Setsuna. Either way she gets to ride a Gundam.

Must...resist...joke

[Tommypezmaster]

I rather like the English additiation to Gundame 00.

[Jacob T. Paschal]

Originally Posted by HellCat

I still say Feldt should get it. That or Setsuna. Either way she gets to ride a Gundam.

I think it would be terribly fitting if Feldt got to pilot this suit, considering her connection to Neil, and her parents being meisters...

[Will Sturnick]

Originally Posted by Unwardil

All this I could forgive of course if it weren't for the very central idea that Aeolia Shenberg was supposed to be some kind of super genius which is how he made the money in the frst place to put his insane plan into action... Which he's clearly NOT due to the fact that he is so monstrously deluded.

A firm grip on reality and intelligence don't necessarily go hand in hand. You don't have to be sane to be smart.

[Jacob T. Paschal]

Originally Posted by Will Sturnick

A firm grip on reality and intelligence don't necessarily go hand in hand. You don't have to be sane to be smart.

Aina's brother agrees...

[Unwardil]

Originally Posted by Jacob T. Paschal

Aina's brother agrees...

Yeeeees and what happened to Ginias?

He goes totally insane with power and tries to kill everyone, second of all, he was working with scientists who were being paid by a government organisation, thus, they were already ideologically motivated and Ginias was not the one to do it, he was to a certain extent, a product of that.

Totally Different.

[Taekmkm]

Also, classic case of "Nyah nyah nyah nyah it ain't the Big Zam!" by the Zabi family (and their metrosexual manservant, too.)

[WingZeroAL]

Originally Posted by GWOtaku

So they're apparently remaking Dynames for the movie. Some of the sketches in the movie trailer depict a "Dynames Repair" model that uses a GN condenser.

My inner fan is pleased, although I do wonder if this is less of a practical decision and more of an acknowledgment that Dynames was awesome. I'm curious to see the how it's used.

Cool, I approve. Maybe it will have enough "new" to justify a new model kit purchase. I still think its particle backpack, if that is what it is, looks like a gun's handle.

[HellCat]

Originally Posted by Gatomon41

Must...resist...joke

Already made it.

[garfield15]

From this week's Gintama



Now I'm sure that's a 00 reference but for the life of me, I can't figure out what mecha that's supposed to be. It looks like a cross between the Nirvash and a Pokemon