Saddam, Bush and Iraq: Your thoughts now?

[wonderfly]

The other thread where we were discussing the capture of Saddam was closed, because some people got a little testy in their responses towards one another. So I'd like to try this again, as the capture of Saddam has really brought up the whole Iraq conflict again, bringing it to the forefront in lot's of peoples minds. So I figured I'd start this thread with the question: Now that Saddam's been captured, what are your thoughts on the Iraq situation as it stands now?

Possible questions to be explored:

1. Does Saddam's capture mean the terrorist attacks will start to dwindle and fade?

2. Will Saddam's capture lead us to finding WMD's?

3. Do you feel more optimistic about the conflict in Iraq then you did 6 months ago?

4. Does this guarentee Bush's reelection?

5. Was Howard Dean correct when he said that Saddam's capture had failed to make America safer?

6. Were we correct to display those pictures of Saddam on the news? The pics of the doctor's examining his rugged face, and searching through his hair for lice? I read an editorial today that said when the U.S. Govt. released those photo's to the media, they angered the Arab world by humilating Saddam. :rolleyes:

I'll answer that final one: if the Arab world get's angered over revealing a tyranical despot to be nothing more than a diseased coward, then the Arab world really needs to rethink it's outlook on life.

There's another thread dealing with "what should Saddam's punishment be?" and so I'd like to avoid that topic here, if you don't mind.

Also, please refrain from turning this into another "Capatalism vs. Communism" debate, (that's sorta the new unwritten rule around here, isn't it?) and those of you with opposing view points: please refrain from referring to others as certain body parts....

[wonderfly]

I'll start by posting my main man's talking point's memo. :) It's from a Special Sunday Night broadcast of his show that he did. Pay special attention to the last paragraph of his memo, as I think it's a relevant question to ask.


A Great Day for America

Monday, December 15, 2003
By Bill O'Reilly


Hi, I'm Bill O'Reilly. Thank you for watching us tonight.

A great day for America. That is the subject of this evening's Talking Points Memo.

In the end they found him in the dirt, which is poetic justice for sure, Saddam Hussein hiding like a worm and surrendering meekly, because above all, the man is a coward.

Most Americans see this as a great victory. Some, however, are disappointed because the actual bolster to the Bush administration, at least in the short run.

However, violence will continue inside Iraq, as it is driven by terror and hatred for the west, and the capture of Saddam will not make that go away.

But this is a great Christmas present for the USA. Another tyrant bites the dust, and the world is a better place.

It's interesting to see countries like France, Russia and a few others, states that want America to fail in the Middle East give half hearted congratulations. "Talking Points" isn't buying it, we know the score here. The worse things go for America, the better the French government for example, likes it.

The capture of Saddam hopefully will clear up a number of important issues. Did he have weapons of mass destruction? If so, where are they? Did he bribe foreign leaders to support him, and which ones gave him arms in violation of the embargo? Which terrorist groups did he directly support with money and safe harbor, and what did he know about al Qaeda?

It is vital Saddam tell the truth about those questions and every measure, every measure should be taken to ensure that he does. After he tells U.S. intelligence what he knows, Saddam should be returned to Iraq to be tried for crimes against humanity. Let them deal with him. If they cannot or will not, then send him to the world court in The Hague.

I suspect Saddam will cut a deal: no execution in return for full disclosure. I would make that deal. The important thing is this guy never tastes freedom again. Killing him should not be such a great priority for the USA. If the Iraqis want to kill them, that's their deal.

Finally Talking Points asks all Americans to be honest with themselves. Are you happy today? Are you glad Saddam has been caught and America has achieved another great victory? If not, that says a lot about you.

And that's The Memo."

This next memo was from Monday night, and it clarifies some of his positions even more. It also explores some of the political ramifications some more.

President Bush Scores Big

Tuesday, December 16, 2003
By Bill O'Reilly


"Hi, I'm Bill O'Reilly. Thank you for watching us tonight.

President Bush scores big, that is the subject of this evening's Talking Points Memo. Somebody up there must be looking out for Mr. Bush. The capture of Saddam has given the president a big wind at his back. And he capitalized today by holding a news conference and introducing his re-election theme.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I will never forget the lessons of September 11, 2001. Terrorists attacked us. They killed thousands of our fellow citizens. And it can happen again. And therefore, I will deal with threats, threats that are emerging and real. We gave Saddam Hussein plenty of time to heed the demands of the world. And he chose defiance.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'REILLY: Over the months to come, you can expect the president to hammer that theme home over and over. He will avoid answering specific questions on WMDs and other controversies and concentrate on the security issue. Of course, many things could happen in the next 11 months, but if the Bush administration keeps the economy going and stabilizes Iraq, it will be hard to beat.

Now last night in a special edition of The Factor, I laid out four things Saddam must tell the USA now that he's in custody. What happened to the weapons of mass destruction he used on the Kurds and Iranians? Did the terrorist Abu Nidal, whom Saddam had murdered, train 9/11 terrorist Mohammed Atta in Baghdad as the British press is reporting? Did Saddam bribe some world leaders to violate the embargo and support him in the United Nations? And which terrorist groups did Saddam train and fund? We will deal with some of those questions coming up on this broadcast.

While many pundits are focusing up on the upcoming trial of Saddam, I say it's not that important. Reasonable people know he was a killer and he will be found guilty. However, the secrets he knows about Europe, Russia, terrorists, and the Arab world can reshape the war on terror.

Talking Points has long believed that some nations want the United States to suffer the attack of terrorists. Saddam knows which nations those are. He also knows how corrupt the United Nations is. And he knows who he bribed.

Some of those things are vital to the USA because the loyal opposition continues to believe the U.N. should be running Iraq and [that] countries like France and Germany are not wrong for opposing America.

So I hope the Bush administration takes as long as necessary to sweat the information out of Saddam. This is a defining moment in history. We have to know what he knows.

And that's The Memo."

[Zach Logan]

My opinions are unchanged damnit!http://forums.toonzone.net/images/smilies/tongue.gif

1. Does Saddam's capture mean the terrorist attacks will start to dwindle and fade?No, they will increase, Bush himself said so!

2. Will Saddam's capture lead us to finding WMD's?NO! THERE ARE NO ****ING WEAPONS OF MASS DISTRUCTION, get over it, Bush lied.

3. Do you feel more optimistic about the conflict in Iraq then you did 6 months ago?Nope, I feel exactly the same, it is pointless and we are allowing hundreds of our soldiers to be killed.

4. Does this guarentee Bush's reelection?Not at all, I infact wrote a two page editorial on why it is far from it. This country thinks Saddam Hussein is important, but by the time the 2004 election roles around we will forget it. To quote The Daily Show..."Finally! "After nine months of searching, we finally found the guy...who had nothing to do with September 11th!"


5. Was Howard Dean correct when he said that Saddam's capture had failed to make America safer?
Of course he was, Saddam Hussein never threatened AMERICA. Saddams capture didnt mean anything in fact, he has been out of power and living in a hole for 9 months, how did he threaten anyone?

6. Were we correct to display those pictures of Saddam on the news? The pics of the doctor's examining his rugged face, and searching through his hair for lice? I read an editorial today that said when the U.S. Govt. released those photo's to the media, they angered the Arab world by humilating Saddam. I don't know, I don't really think so, but I don't really care

[Delthayre]

I, by and by, largely agree with Zach, although I would more emphatically oppose the displaying of the examination pictures and videos.

The only thing I would like to add is this quote from an Iraqi expatriate living in New Zealand, "Saddam's been dead for nine months already. I want to hear that it's safe to go home."

[Chris Wood]

Saddam, Bush and Iraq: You're thoughts now?

Aiiigghhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[zmanjz]

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[Borg4of3]

I'm in one of those rare moods in which I'm actually really excited to post, so I'll be a little impatient and ignore the other posts and just type up my responses. Sorry :p

(6)I read a great article in the Stars and Stripes that detailed the reasonings and hope behind question number 6 (was it right to show those images of Saddam). In the past, dictators have rarely been captured alive, either escaping and never facing justice, or dying by their own hand or by a firing squad of angry citizens. This is one of those rare cases in which a man of such horrid reputation was captured and will face the consequences. In a move that expressed two very powerful messages, Saddam's capture and medical examination was shown. The first message was that Saddam was just a man, not a demigod, not a devil, just a human being who did these horrible things. Those Iraqis that did everything but worship him see that this is the creature that they've been fighting for. This isn't their hero; he isn't worth dying for. The second message was a sign of democracy stood for. We didn't kill him. We're going to try to turn him over to the Iraqis. We're treating him humanely. We're the good guys.

(1) Hopefully, if these messages are interpreted and absorbed by those fighting for their beliefs, they'll realize that this man and the old Iraq is not a cause worth fighting for. While admittedly a bit on the optimistic side, I believe the attacks will start to lessen.

(2) *shrugs*

(3) Soldiers have done good out there, and the military leaders who led them knew what they were doing. I have been and still am optimistic about the conflict. Casualties are, relatively, few on both sides, and the troops and Iraqis are being taken care of, despite the extended stay.

(4) I watched an episode of the first season of The West Wing, in which, if I remember correctly, the Chief of Staff scolded the Deputy Chief of Staff for thinking about a proposed rescue mission in political terms, and he was right to scold such thoughts. The political consequences are secondary to the realistic and direct consequences of what has transpired.

(5) I agree with Zach and others who say that Iraq never really posed a threat to America. I'm for this war on a humanist front. We went in this thinking that Iraq was a threat, and it, months afterwards, has thusfar turned out it wasn't. Even the elite Republican Guard was a joke. The WMD are nowhere to be found. But we still did good for the country, and that's what I'm proud of. America is no more safer nor less safer, but at least Iraq can say its free of Saddam, an act the first Decapitation Strikes accomplished, and this capture has maintained.

[FavreFactor]

It was huge for our country to catch Saddam. We now are in control but we are still going to keep bombing. I think thats smart because it wasnt just Saddam who did everthing it was some other people too and if they want to do that kind of stuff to us then we are going to keep on bombing. Great speach by the President also.

[Nightflower]

Aiiigghhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know the feeling. :P

Pardon me for sounding cynical, but experience seems to have taught me that some people are dead set in their political opinions and nothing that happens in the world seems to change them.

[tigerrunner]

As of right now, I'm happy they caught Saddam (it's nice to see the Bush adnministration do at least something right), but I realize, no matter how hard the Bush Admin. tries to cover it up, there were no weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq. Furthermore, Saddam had NOTHING to do with 9/11, or any terrorist atacks against the states. The President needs to stop trying to fool people and fess up about this fact. Osama and Saddam are two different people, two different agendas. Another reason i'm glad that they caught Saddam is that they'll finally prove that there were no weapons of mass destruction, probably in his War Crimes trial, where that's what he'll be prosecuted for. Of course, he'll still be found guilty, but whatever.

If Bush wins reelection, I'm moving to Canada. I seriously cannot stand him wasting money on pointless wars.

*secretly wonders if Bush will accuse Syria of holding weapons of mass destruction and go to war with them in 2004*

[Zach Logan]

As of right now, I'm happy they caught Saddam (it's nice to see the Bush adnministration do at least something right), but I realize, no matter how hard the Bush Admin. tries to cover it up, there were no weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq. Furthermore, Saddam had NOTHING to do with 9/11, or any terrorist atacks against the states. The President needs to stop trying to fool people and fess up about this fact. Osama and Saddam are two different people, two different agendas. Another reason i'm glad that they caught Saddam is that they'll finally prove that there were no weapons of mass destruction, probably in his War Crimes trial, where that's what he'll be prosecuted for. Of course, he'll still be found guilty, but whatever.

If Bush wins reelection, I'm moving to Canada. I seriously cannot stand him wasting money on pointless wars.

*secretly wonders if Bush will accuse Syria of holding weapons of mass destruction and go to war with them in 2004*You took the words right out of my mouth. I completly agree with everything you have said, and I would also move to Canada if he won again...

[Avery]

You took the words right out of my mouth. I completly agree with everything you have said, and I would also move to Canada if he won again...

Ditto with Canada. I'm looking for good animation school, and if he get's re-elected, Toronto School of Art will shoot to the top of this list.

[Chris Wood]

I know the feeling. :P

Pardon me for sounding cynical, but experience seems to have taught me that some people are dead set in their political opinions and nothing that happens in the world seems to change them.

Er, political recalcitrance is also distressing, but it's the grammar here that drives me up the wall.

[wonderfly]

Er, political recalcitrance is also distressing, but it's the grammar here that drives me up the wall.


Oh, I see...it should read "Your thoughts now?" correct? Geez, can't a guy make mistakes every once in a while? Can someone please change the title so we don't send Desslar into any more convulsions? :)