Teek
11-07-2003, 02:57 AM
Okay, here I go. I’ve posted a lot in the Big O threads and at the encouragement of Sampo (it’s your fault for expressing interest ;)) I have made a new thread to discuss the true meaning behind the show, if in the end it even has one…
Here is my attempt at using most everything in the series to form some possible questions/theories as to WHAT the hell was actually going on… I would really like your guys feedback on these because you guys can think of things I can't! This will be our area to discuss the whole show and bits we may have missed along the way. We can use this thread also during the rerun of the entire series to hash out new ideas when we rewatch the episodes.
For your sake and my sake I think I will post these ideas of mine in chunks. Since I know if I post some long ass thing people will just ignore it and I will feel cheated. ;) I think my first couple will just be to get some ideas out there, things I’ve been thinking about and would like feedback on.
The Big O companion book stated the “event” happened in 2018. Another date found in the series was the Expo ‘04 marker when Roger and Dorothy found the Archetype underground. These are the only firms official dates we have been given about the series. Those specific years and that it has been "40" years since the last event.
The possible questions about these dates are…
1. When was the Paradigm “holoroom” constructed? Was this room created to house the remains of NYC OR was it created to mimic the remains of NYC OR was it meant to just mimic NYC and it got more and more destroyed after every rese?
2. The listing of 2018, does this point to the date of the “event” in the minds of Roger and company? Meaning in 2018 was there some form of huge battle involving Big’s that resulted in NYC being destroyed, submerged and turned into a desert? After that event was everyone inserted into the Paradigm room and did they have most of the memories wiped? Or was the Big fight something from a previous run of Paradigm before it was reset again? Is it possible NYC was destroyed and a mass memory loss happened? Then everyone was placed into the Paradigm room? The citizens then lived out the last days of the rise and use of Big’s over and over again?
3. If Angel is the director of a TV show all these dates and theories are moot. You can easily say all the events that transpired were set in place to happen and it is possible all the flashes of memory Roger had of Big O in action were false and placed into him. Going not quite as far one could say Angel was present at the original event and she decided for some reason to create a fake world in which to watch people live out their lives and be entertained by “Megadeuses of the week”… One important consideration for the TV show angle is the creation of the Dorothy dolls. The creation of toys for the show seems to point to there being an actual audience for the show outside of Angel. Here’s something else to consider though, if it is a TV show, WHY would Angel have to film a younger version of herself along with a version of Vera? If the director has the ability to fully control everyone, does Angel not have control over her own memories? Was the filming for the sake of Angel or for the sake of the audience? Nowhere else in the series was the idea of it as a TV show as explicit as there underground. Only for Angel was an actual soundstage and camera used. Did Angel not have the ability to create memories for herself? Was the quick shot of her in episode 26 present at the filming so she would remember it later when she lost her memory? Why did an actual soundstage have to be created and used?
4. How does age play into characters in the city? We had several confusing scenarios play out:
A. Gordon aged, and the rest of Paradigm aged. Roger appears to have not aged. This seems to be due to the fact Gordon used the previous Roger as a donor for his tomato program. Was this done willingly by Roger or was Gordon forced to clone Roger after he died in Big O (see episode 26 flashback)? It was stated Roger was one of the tomatoes that was successful, so that appears to account for why Roger seems to be the same age again as what he was when he died the first time around. It just so happened the clone and memory implantation happened the right number of years ago after the event, perhaps by design. What about the robots? The two humanoid ones we’ve seen may have aged. The senator appears to have aged, he stated his body wasn’t what it once was and had aged like a humans would. Big Ear may have aged, but then he may have always looked like an undercover Jewish guy in a bar… Angel did not age, I will address that later.
B. We also have Dastun, who aged but also faced a younger version of himself. What is more puzzling is movie poster on the theater said Dan Dastun himself was starring in the movie the younger version of himself was trying to see. Where the younger Dan comes from is anyone’s guess. Here’s something interesting though, if this resembles the end of the previous loop, maybe the young boy ISN’T named Dan Dastun? After losing his memory perhaps he sees the movie poster and decides to use that name to refer to himself? What happens though if Dan Dastun continues on into the new loop? Does that mean there are two Dan Dastun’s now? But perhaps without the memory wipe the kid remains who is and doesn’t take on the name of Dastun? I think his presence is actually something important to consider in the whole TV show aspect. Why is this boy there? Was the older Dastun supposed to die at some point but by quitting the military police did he avoid dying this time? Were there other older citizens who suddenly had younger versions of themselves pre-event popping up? That was never addressed so the presence of the two young kids remains a bizarre mystery.
Here’s another thing I had considered after watching Winter Night Phantom. We assume the things Dastun sees are memory fragments. Do we know for sure though? What about this crazy idea, what if he is somehow seeing the actions of that young kid and girl in that theater at his present point in time? That would mean that kid is NOT actually him, just some kid who he thinks is him. Then later in the series he sees the kid and the girl seeing the movie again and he gets that paranoid feeling. Main problem with that is the question of why Dan would be seeing some vision/memory of an event that is currently ongoing. At no point in the series that I know of has that happened. Plus the version of Winter Night Phantom the kid and girl sees is bizarre in that it depicts a flying approach of Paradigm and is obviously NOT a French film. That is one of the truly bizarre unanswered questions in the series.
Here’s some other ideas I’ve posited, mainly from the various threads and hints established in the series. When considering these you must understand that the assumption is these things were based on actual memories, and weren’t just implanted into the characters to make the TV show good…
1: Beck – Beck proved very knowledge when it came to Megadeus creation and use. He knew Roger was the Domineus of Big O, he knew Big O’s final stage attack and he knew how to use Dorothy’s memories to activate Big Fau. Several interesting theories on his background can play out. Was Beck one of he developers of the Big series? Was Beck one of the pilots alongside Roger? Was Beck an enemy of the military police and Roger in a previous loop? One would figure if Beck were a pilot, he would have had a lot better luck piloting the various Megadeuses he used. And he also always had others draw up and build them in the series, a designer you figure could do that himself. Perhaps Beck couldn't pilot a Big because like Alan, he would get "Ye Guilty" as well? Maybe that lead to Beck having "Big" envy, trying to compensate by having other megadeuses built for him?
2. Angel – The greatest enigma of the series is Angel. She used multiple names and was a cast off from Paradigm with the Union even though she was not a rotten tomato. How did she arrive at the Union? Vera seemed to think she belonged there. Did Angel stumble out into the desert one day under the assumption she had been cast out? Angel bears two scars on her back. These scars could be the place actual wings had been removed from her body OR they could be the interface area for the Paradigm holo-room. Notice one other person who would have had those same scars. Alex Rosewater. When Alex merged with Big Fau it was in that exact same area and pattern where Angel had her scars. Here are a couple theories many have stated regarding Angel:
A: Angel is the supreme director of the Big O show. She decided for some reason to create or save the city of Paradigm, either preserving NYC and its people, or creating it from scratch for her and/or the audiences’ enjoyment. At some point in time she filmed a younger version of herself with a woman who looked like Vera. At some point Angel decided to insert herself into the show. It does not appear to be the first time. She showed up as a member of the Military Police in Roger the Wanderer, that scene also showed in the control room so we should assume it was something that happened in the past that was filmed. Upon hearing Roger she decided it was time for the show to end and for the search for memories to be gotten past. Why would this move Angel to insert herself into the show again? If she regained the director’s chair did that mean she regained all her memories? Why would that move her to rejoin Roger and Dorothy inside the show?
B: Angel is a true fallen angel and is or is the pawn of Lucifer. Lucifer is known as several things, including “the fallen angel” and it is also the name for the planet Venus when appearing as the morning star. You can probably see the connection already. Evil little Angel has created an f’d up TV show for the masses to watch. All the while enjoying the pain and suffering of those she resets over and over again and perhaps falling in love with the leading man. Angel cried though, maybe she was a reluctant director of people stuck in purgatory? Though why purgatory looked like the holodeck is anyone’s guess… Perhaps Angel was cast out of heaven during the last days, and was to watch over the last survivors until they got it right? Then when Roger made his declaration Angel cried, either out of sadness or happiness and the reset cycle ended in a sense.
The scars can also come into play here, Big Fau merged with Alex, and Angel may have merged with Venus in the same way. If Angel is some sort of demonic being why would she need to interface with Venus in such a manner? Why would it leave marks unless she were human in some way?
C: Angel is an unwitting director who was placed into that position against her own will. This goes back to the interface scars. Perhaps Angel when she worked for the military police also piloted a Big? Merging with it right before the end of the last memory reset? By giving herself to it completely she lost her memory and was cast out from Paradigm. She also then became capable of controlling the Paradigm holo-room. The problem with this theory comes from the fact Angel never appears to have aged. If she was a memory from a previous reset and not a tomato, perhaps by merging she froze herself in time, that way she would be prepared to control the room whenever the time came? Gordon himself said he didn’t clone her and I doubt scars would develop on a clone in the same manner the donor had. If Angel was preserved from before the previous wipe this also may go to explain the TV show aspect that was introduced. Imagine this, Angel loses her memory, wanders around Paradigm for awhile unsure who she is. She eventually leaves the city to go to the location of the Union. There she gets integrated into their group, thinking their goal makes sense. When Angel later goes underground, she does not see the ghosts Roger saw when he went there before. Last time Roger was there he also imagined his mother until Dorothy woke him up. What did Roger desire then? Some comforting place where he could be with a mother figure? What is interesting to consider is Roger was a tomato, he didn’t have a mother. So does that mean Roger’s mind made up a mother figure, the mother looked creepily like a mannequin, didn’t it? Now consider Angel, she is down there desperately searching for memories, anything that she can find to reassure herself. If she has been selected to control the world, what better way to get her into that role than to portray it as a TV show? It’s messed up but consider this, the underground appears to be an area where the true reality of the Paradigm room begins to shine through. Ghosts are seen and paranoid delusions are felt. When Angel and Gordon later left the soundstage it disappeared as one of the rooms constructs. Perhaps it was never meant to be there anyway? It was only placed there to break Angel’s will and get her to push the next cycle reset through. Perhaps this is where Big Venus comes in. It sets itself out to crush the will of a chosen citizen because it can not do the reset by itself, it has to have a human do it.
That’s long I know, and I doubt many people will read the whole thing. I know a lot of people will say I rambled, I figure I did. Just at least skim over the thing and see if you have any new thoughts pop into your head. In later posts I’m going to try and discuss other characters including Roger, Dorothy & her father, Schwarxvald and the Rosewaters. I will also try and share my thoughts on all the Big’s and the Megadeuses and how the religious overtones of them all seem to point to something more grander than a TV show. After I get all that out of the way, I think I will try and write down the conclusion I have come to as to what exactly happened to the people of Paradigm.
Here’s one more zinger for you to consider. What if Paradigm is real, and it is the actual remains of NYC on our very Earth? When Big Venus appeared it began to create an alternate reality for itself in the fashion of a holo-room. When the pieces of Paradigm disappeared they weren’t actually disappearing, they were instead being replaced by the creation of Big Venus. The Adult Swim website also said something similar, that Angel and Gordon went to another dimension, the question though is if that is their interpretation or if that was something they got from the writers.
Here is my attempt at using most everything in the series to form some possible questions/theories as to WHAT the hell was actually going on… I would really like your guys feedback on these because you guys can think of things I can't! This will be our area to discuss the whole show and bits we may have missed along the way. We can use this thread also during the rerun of the entire series to hash out new ideas when we rewatch the episodes.
For your sake and my sake I think I will post these ideas of mine in chunks. Since I know if I post some long ass thing people will just ignore it and I will feel cheated. ;) I think my first couple will just be to get some ideas out there, things I’ve been thinking about and would like feedback on.
The Big O companion book stated the “event” happened in 2018. Another date found in the series was the Expo ‘04 marker when Roger and Dorothy found the Archetype underground. These are the only firms official dates we have been given about the series. Those specific years and that it has been "40" years since the last event.
The possible questions about these dates are…
1. When was the Paradigm “holoroom” constructed? Was this room created to house the remains of NYC OR was it created to mimic the remains of NYC OR was it meant to just mimic NYC and it got more and more destroyed after every rese?
2. The listing of 2018, does this point to the date of the “event” in the minds of Roger and company? Meaning in 2018 was there some form of huge battle involving Big’s that resulted in NYC being destroyed, submerged and turned into a desert? After that event was everyone inserted into the Paradigm room and did they have most of the memories wiped? Or was the Big fight something from a previous run of Paradigm before it was reset again? Is it possible NYC was destroyed and a mass memory loss happened? Then everyone was placed into the Paradigm room? The citizens then lived out the last days of the rise and use of Big’s over and over again?
3. If Angel is the director of a TV show all these dates and theories are moot. You can easily say all the events that transpired were set in place to happen and it is possible all the flashes of memory Roger had of Big O in action were false and placed into him. Going not quite as far one could say Angel was present at the original event and she decided for some reason to create a fake world in which to watch people live out their lives and be entertained by “Megadeuses of the week”… One important consideration for the TV show angle is the creation of the Dorothy dolls. The creation of toys for the show seems to point to there being an actual audience for the show outside of Angel. Here’s something else to consider though, if it is a TV show, WHY would Angel have to film a younger version of herself along with a version of Vera? If the director has the ability to fully control everyone, does Angel not have control over her own memories? Was the filming for the sake of Angel or for the sake of the audience? Nowhere else in the series was the idea of it as a TV show as explicit as there underground. Only for Angel was an actual soundstage and camera used. Did Angel not have the ability to create memories for herself? Was the quick shot of her in episode 26 present at the filming so she would remember it later when she lost her memory? Why did an actual soundstage have to be created and used?
4. How does age play into characters in the city? We had several confusing scenarios play out:
A. Gordon aged, and the rest of Paradigm aged. Roger appears to have not aged. This seems to be due to the fact Gordon used the previous Roger as a donor for his tomato program. Was this done willingly by Roger or was Gordon forced to clone Roger after he died in Big O (see episode 26 flashback)? It was stated Roger was one of the tomatoes that was successful, so that appears to account for why Roger seems to be the same age again as what he was when he died the first time around. It just so happened the clone and memory implantation happened the right number of years ago after the event, perhaps by design. What about the robots? The two humanoid ones we’ve seen may have aged. The senator appears to have aged, he stated his body wasn’t what it once was and had aged like a humans would. Big Ear may have aged, but then he may have always looked like an undercover Jewish guy in a bar… Angel did not age, I will address that later.
B. We also have Dastun, who aged but also faced a younger version of himself. What is more puzzling is movie poster on the theater said Dan Dastun himself was starring in the movie the younger version of himself was trying to see. Where the younger Dan comes from is anyone’s guess. Here’s something interesting though, if this resembles the end of the previous loop, maybe the young boy ISN’T named Dan Dastun? After losing his memory perhaps he sees the movie poster and decides to use that name to refer to himself? What happens though if Dan Dastun continues on into the new loop? Does that mean there are two Dan Dastun’s now? But perhaps without the memory wipe the kid remains who is and doesn’t take on the name of Dastun? I think his presence is actually something important to consider in the whole TV show aspect. Why is this boy there? Was the older Dastun supposed to die at some point but by quitting the military police did he avoid dying this time? Were there other older citizens who suddenly had younger versions of themselves pre-event popping up? That was never addressed so the presence of the two young kids remains a bizarre mystery.
Here’s another thing I had considered after watching Winter Night Phantom. We assume the things Dastun sees are memory fragments. Do we know for sure though? What about this crazy idea, what if he is somehow seeing the actions of that young kid and girl in that theater at his present point in time? That would mean that kid is NOT actually him, just some kid who he thinks is him. Then later in the series he sees the kid and the girl seeing the movie again and he gets that paranoid feeling. Main problem with that is the question of why Dan would be seeing some vision/memory of an event that is currently ongoing. At no point in the series that I know of has that happened. Plus the version of Winter Night Phantom the kid and girl sees is bizarre in that it depicts a flying approach of Paradigm and is obviously NOT a French film. That is one of the truly bizarre unanswered questions in the series.
Here’s some other ideas I’ve posited, mainly from the various threads and hints established in the series. When considering these you must understand that the assumption is these things were based on actual memories, and weren’t just implanted into the characters to make the TV show good…
1: Beck – Beck proved very knowledge when it came to Megadeus creation and use. He knew Roger was the Domineus of Big O, he knew Big O’s final stage attack and he knew how to use Dorothy’s memories to activate Big Fau. Several interesting theories on his background can play out. Was Beck one of he developers of the Big series? Was Beck one of the pilots alongside Roger? Was Beck an enemy of the military police and Roger in a previous loop? One would figure if Beck were a pilot, he would have had a lot better luck piloting the various Megadeuses he used. And he also always had others draw up and build them in the series, a designer you figure could do that himself. Perhaps Beck couldn't pilot a Big because like Alan, he would get "Ye Guilty" as well? Maybe that lead to Beck having "Big" envy, trying to compensate by having other megadeuses built for him?
2. Angel – The greatest enigma of the series is Angel. She used multiple names and was a cast off from Paradigm with the Union even though she was not a rotten tomato. How did she arrive at the Union? Vera seemed to think she belonged there. Did Angel stumble out into the desert one day under the assumption she had been cast out? Angel bears two scars on her back. These scars could be the place actual wings had been removed from her body OR they could be the interface area for the Paradigm holo-room. Notice one other person who would have had those same scars. Alex Rosewater. When Alex merged with Big Fau it was in that exact same area and pattern where Angel had her scars. Here are a couple theories many have stated regarding Angel:
A: Angel is the supreme director of the Big O show. She decided for some reason to create or save the city of Paradigm, either preserving NYC and its people, or creating it from scratch for her and/or the audiences’ enjoyment. At some point in time she filmed a younger version of herself with a woman who looked like Vera. At some point Angel decided to insert herself into the show. It does not appear to be the first time. She showed up as a member of the Military Police in Roger the Wanderer, that scene also showed in the control room so we should assume it was something that happened in the past that was filmed. Upon hearing Roger she decided it was time for the show to end and for the search for memories to be gotten past. Why would this move Angel to insert herself into the show again? If she regained the director’s chair did that mean she regained all her memories? Why would that move her to rejoin Roger and Dorothy inside the show?
B: Angel is a true fallen angel and is or is the pawn of Lucifer. Lucifer is known as several things, including “the fallen angel” and it is also the name for the planet Venus when appearing as the morning star. You can probably see the connection already. Evil little Angel has created an f’d up TV show for the masses to watch. All the while enjoying the pain and suffering of those she resets over and over again and perhaps falling in love with the leading man. Angel cried though, maybe she was a reluctant director of people stuck in purgatory? Though why purgatory looked like the holodeck is anyone’s guess… Perhaps Angel was cast out of heaven during the last days, and was to watch over the last survivors until they got it right? Then when Roger made his declaration Angel cried, either out of sadness or happiness and the reset cycle ended in a sense.
The scars can also come into play here, Big Fau merged with Alex, and Angel may have merged with Venus in the same way. If Angel is some sort of demonic being why would she need to interface with Venus in such a manner? Why would it leave marks unless she were human in some way?
C: Angel is an unwitting director who was placed into that position against her own will. This goes back to the interface scars. Perhaps Angel when she worked for the military police also piloted a Big? Merging with it right before the end of the last memory reset? By giving herself to it completely she lost her memory and was cast out from Paradigm. She also then became capable of controlling the Paradigm holo-room. The problem with this theory comes from the fact Angel never appears to have aged. If she was a memory from a previous reset and not a tomato, perhaps by merging she froze herself in time, that way she would be prepared to control the room whenever the time came? Gordon himself said he didn’t clone her and I doubt scars would develop on a clone in the same manner the donor had. If Angel was preserved from before the previous wipe this also may go to explain the TV show aspect that was introduced. Imagine this, Angel loses her memory, wanders around Paradigm for awhile unsure who she is. She eventually leaves the city to go to the location of the Union. There she gets integrated into their group, thinking their goal makes sense. When Angel later goes underground, she does not see the ghosts Roger saw when he went there before. Last time Roger was there he also imagined his mother until Dorothy woke him up. What did Roger desire then? Some comforting place where he could be with a mother figure? What is interesting to consider is Roger was a tomato, he didn’t have a mother. So does that mean Roger’s mind made up a mother figure, the mother looked creepily like a mannequin, didn’t it? Now consider Angel, she is down there desperately searching for memories, anything that she can find to reassure herself. If she has been selected to control the world, what better way to get her into that role than to portray it as a TV show? It’s messed up but consider this, the underground appears to be an area where the true reality of the Paradigm room begins to shine through. Ghosts are seen and paranoid delusions are felt. When Angel and Gordon later left the soundstage it disappeared as one of the rooms constructs. Perhaps it was never meant to be there anyway? It was only placed there to break Angel’s will and get her to push the next cycle reset through. Perhaps this is where Big Venus comes in. It sets itself out to crush the will of a chosen citizen because it can not do the reset by itself, it has to have a human do it.
That’s long I know, and I doubt many people will read the whole thing. I know a lot of people will say I rambled, I figure I did. Just at least skim over the thing and see if you have any new thoughts pop into your head. In later posts I’m going to try and discuss other characters including Roger, Dorothy & her father, Schwarxvald and the Rosewaters. I will also try and share my thoughts on all the Big’s and the Megadeuses and how the religious overtones of them all seem to point to something more grander than a TV show. After I get all that out of the way, I think I will try and write down the conclusion I have come to as to what exactly happened to the people of Paradigm.
Here’s one more zinger for you to consider. What if Paradigm is real, and it is the actual remains of NYC on our very Earth? When Big Venus appeared it began to create an alternate reality for itself in the fashion of a holo-room. When the pieces of Paradigm disappeared they weren’t actually disappearing, they were instead being replaced by the creation of Big Venus. The Adult Swim website also said something similar, that Angel and Gordon went to another dimension, the question though is if that is their interpretation or if that was something they got from the writers.