Affirmative Action

[BrendaBat]

The recent Supreme Court decision got me thinking about this subject. While I’ve heard some good arguments for Affirmative Action (i.e. diversity, opportunities for minorities and women, etc) I’m still opposed to it.
I think that Affirmative Action gives off the false impression that white and Asian people have it easy and minorities need handouts in order to compete with them. I’m all for promoting diversity in major universities, but there has to be a better way to do it.

However, I do agree with giving extra points to people who are at a real disadvantage (like poverty), I just don’t think that having dark skin is as much of a handicap today as it was a few decades ago.
So, how to you guys feel about this issue?

[Catlover]

I'm compleatly against affirmative action. It tells those who can get AA that they're not as good as the other guy who got into college or got a job without the help of AA.

[Psilon]

I agree with Brenda,
the economic situation should be taken into account.

[Drachentöter]

I'm with Brenda and Psilon in saying that economic status should be the highest, if not the only, consideration in giving out aid to students.

It happens to be that most hispanic and black students with an average GPA have less money than a white student with similar grades. So, I don't think affirmative action is totally wrong because it is giving certain demographics an opportunity to "catch up" with others. But white students with the credentials and potential should definitely not be denied.

I admit to being biased, because affirmative action may turn out to be an important factor when I apply for college.

[RKillian]

I am very much against all forms of hypocrisy, and therefore opposed to the equal-but-special treatment that affirmative action currently seems to represent.

[Zechs]

I'm for it untill they can find a better way to be fair. Sadly there are still people who will hire or let you into to college because of race. So untill there is a way to be fair to all races AA should stay.

[TimTwoFace]

I feel that anyone that had the brains to get into a university should be able to. That should be the only measuring stick used in deciding who gets in and who doesn't - grades. Skin colour shouldn't matter, nationality shouldn't matter, if they're a local or internation student shouldn't matter, economic status shouldn't matter. Anyone that has good enough grades to be accepted into a university or college should be given every opportunity to get in. Beyond that, it's a first-apply, first-serve basis.

There should be programs in place to assist those in need of financial help, though. That I do agree with. Schools are so very expenisve nowadays, and there are a lot of people out there that can't get in unless they get some assistance.

-Tim

[BrendaBat]

It happens to be that most hispanic and black students with an average GPA have less money than a white student with similar grades.
However, being black or hispanic doesn't automatically doom someone to a life of poverty. And being white doesn't garuntee financial security. If a person is poor then they should get financial help for their education, regardless of their race.

The points system that was struck down gave an automatic 20 points to black or hispanic applicants. I can't help but wonder if a person would only get 10 points for being half-white. Or if I could get some points because my cousins are half-mexican...
Y'know, maybe this Affirmative Action thing isn't so bad after all (j/k) :p

[cross blues]

AA is almost racism against white people. Therefore, as a white person, I am against it. How can people be expected to look past race when there is something like AA pushing it in their faces every day? A person is allowed to file a civil suit if he/she feels denied an opportunity because of his/her race, so what is the point of AA? Fixing public schools to insure everyone has a quality education would solve the problem. AA is like a wad of gum on a leaky pipe.

[Shnay]

I've expressed my opinions on this matter a number of times in different threads, so here's the abridged version:

I'm in favor of it for the time being, but I think it could definitely use a good deal of reform. It's an unfair solution by nature, one that will sometimes work as a disadvantage to many, but I haven't heard a superior proposal that addresses the problems affirmitive action does.

And that's all you'll hear from me about it in this thread.

[The Landstander]

However, I do agree with giving extra points to people who are at a real disadvantage (like poverty), I just don’t think that having dark skin is as much of a handicap today as it was a few decades ago.I think you nailed it right there. Affirmative Action should be based on economic situation, not on race.

...yep.

[supermonkey]

I presently support the concept of creating opportunities, that include race as well as other factors, for individuals. I don't support quotas. This has been debated to death, so that's all I've got to say.

[Catlover]

AA is almost racism against white people. Therefore, as a white person, I am against it. How can people be expected to look past race when there is something like AA pushing it in their faces every day? A person is allowed to file a civil suit if he/she feels denied an opportunity because of his/her race, so what is the point of AA? Fixing public schools to insure everyone has a quality education would solve the problem. AA is like a wad of gum on a leaky pipe.

What you just said is something I was afraid too comment on in my post, but I'd just like to add that I compleaty aggre with what you just said.

If your for AA, your also for racism.

[Tienshin]

If your for AA, your also for racism.

You are clearly a logic expert, thats the most ridiculous assertion.

Anyhow, the system should be reworked to help people based economic status. Not race. The idea has good intentions, but its clear that more and more people are against it, even many minorities. However to further diversity many schools look to have a cross section of society represented in their enrollment, which inherently is going to produce some type of quota.

[Nightflower]

The recent Supreme Court decision got me thinking about this subject. While I’ve heard some good arguments for Affirmative Action (i.e. diversity, opportunities for minorities and women, etc) I’m still opposed to it.
I think that Affirmative Action gives off the false impression that white and Asian people have it easy and minorities need handouts in order to compete with them. I’m all for promoting diversity in major universities, but there has to be a better way to do it.

However, I do agree with giving extra points to people who are at a real disadvantage (like poverty), I just don’t think that having dark skin is as much of a handicap today as it was a few decades ago.
So, how to you guys feel about this issue?
I didn't know Affirmative Action didn't apply to Asians. Aren't they minorities too? (Not that I'm saying I'm for it, I'm just curious)

[EinBebop]

I didn't know Affirmative Action didn't apply to Asians. Aren't they minorities too? (Not that I'm saying I'm for it, I'm just curious)Affirmative action is set up to help "underrepresented minorities" in the college system; Asian Americans are considered, if anything, to be overrepresented.

This was one of the big arguments against affirmative action back in the late 80's, but a quick google search will show you that there is definitely some division on this issue today. Some groups feel that they are untouched by this affirmative action on college campuses, but benefit from such programs out in the real world, and any kind of repeal made on college campuses would be more likely to make it to the job market.

In the most recent Supreme Court case, which we talked about somewhat briefly in the Supreme Court (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=79747&highlight=supreme+court) thread awhile back, opinions were filed by Asian groups on both sides of the issue.One group insisted affirmative action was being used as a tool to keep the numbers of Asian Americans in universities down.

The issue is coming up again in California, as there well be a proposition on the recall ballot to ban "using race, ethnicity, color or national origin to classify current or prospective students, contractors or employees in public education, contracting or employment operations." The articles I've read make it appear that the organized Asian community in California is against this proposition.

[Drachentöter]

If your for AA, your also for racism.

Well, that's a quick and easy generalization.

The motivation behind AA isn't racism. They're trying to INTEGRATE and DIVERSIFY college campuses. That's the opposite of racism with entails segregation and a race of "lower-class" people.

I know it's not fair to a generation that didn't do anything to African Americans or Hispanics. That's why I believe in a reform for affirmative action. Those wtih acceptable grades but low economic status should recieve economical aid. Most likely, the students recieving the aid will overwhelmingly be minorities anyway because they are generally disadvantaged.

First-come, first-serve isn't necessarily the best policy. Some students can be rejected at one college and accepted into another. They have several chances at succeeding. Some students have one shot and if they don't get in then and there, they don't get in at all.

[Shnay]

Remember: caucasions still control the government, and still have the most voting power by far. If it's truly "racist against white people" the law will change.

[EinBebop]

If it's truly "racist against white people" the law will change.All of that voting power does no good once judicial activism comes into play. Look up information on California proposition 187 sometime.

[BrendaBat]

Origionally posted by VortexInfinite:
The motivation behind AA isn't racism. They're trying to INTEGRATE and DIVERSIFY college campuses. That's the opposite of racism with entails segregation and a race of "lower-class" people.
The diversity issue brings up another question. At the end of the school year, a black friend of mine got a bunch of brochures from colleges that advertised the fact that the vast majority (if not all) of the students are African American. Should Affirmative Action apply to those schools? Aren't they depriving their students of a diverse learning environment by giving black applicants an advantage over other applicants?

[RKillian]

Where did the term "caucasian" come from anyhow?

I don't see what was really wrong with "white people" (or "black people" for that matter) as it's just a very generalized cursory description. Does your shirt or car get offended because you refer to it with a color?

[Tienshin]

Where did the term "caucasian" come from anyhow?

I don't see what was really wrong with "white people" (or "black people" for that matter) as it's just a very generalized cursory description. Does your shirt or car get offended because you refer to it with a color?


If I recall correctly, and this is simplistic so dont quote me

Caucasion derivative of Caucazoid. Black/Negro derivative of Negroid. Asian/mongol derivative of Mongoloid

[Zach Logan]

I am a complete libral democrat on EVERY issue besides this one. I am completly against affermative action unless it was created only to benifit those in economic need.

[Shnay]

All of that voting power does no good once judicial activism comes into play. Look up information on California proposition 187 sometime.

I know all about prop 187. And, while the people's voting power was overridden, it was overridden by a court system that is still controlled by whites. To think that a predominantly white government would install a purposely racist system against white people is ridiculous. Yes, there are problems with the system, but it's not the government system of "racism" that so many claim it to be.

I said at the beginning that I didn't want to be a part of this conversation again, but I guess I blew that. So, on that note, this will be the last you hear from me on the subject. Pinky swear.

[okendri]

The diversity issue brings up another question. At the end of the school year, a black friend of mine got a bunch of brochures from colleges that advertised the fact that the vast majority (if not all) of the students are African American. Should Affirmative Action apply to those schools? Aren't they depriving their students of a diverse learning environment by giving black applicants an advantage over other applicants?

Some of the HBCs do practice some form of AA by giving diversity scholarship to non-black applicants. Maybe not a scale as other schools, but it is an attempt to diversify their campuses.

[EinBebop]

I know all about prop 187. And, while the people's voting power was overridden, it was overridden by a court system that is still controlled by whites. To think that a predominantly white government would install a purposely racist system against white people is ridiculous. Yes, there are problems with the system, but it's not the government system of "racism" that so many claim it to be.Sorry to hear you won't be around to debate this further. I will say that I believe that many of the supporters of affirmative action have good intentions. To that end, it is not a "purposely" racist system. It's a system whose cause and effect are so cloudy that many people aren't sure what to think of it. And as far as who controls the court system, and what their motivations are, that's a whole new thread. :)

I just remembered a story my debate teacher told... he was trying to relate to us a point on debating, and told us about one of his debate students that argued against affirmative action at a meet. :) When his turn came around, he agreed with everything his opponent said: Affirmative action was great, and had worked very well. So well, in fact, that it had accomplished it's purpose and was no longer needed anymore! His opponent lost badly and the two almost came to blows backstage. :D

[Catlover]

You are clearly a logic expert, thats the most ridiculous assertion.

No need to insult me. No, it's not a "ridiculous assertion".

The motivation behind AA isn't racism. They're trying to INTEGRATE and DIVERSIFY college campuses. That's the opposite of racism with entails segregation and a race of "lower-class" people.

I know that the motivation isn't raceisim, but thats what it's mutated into.

[Tienshin]

No need to insult me. No, it's not a "ridiculous assertion".




Yes it is. And I am not trying to insult you. You are trying to draw a linear conclusion from a totally separate idea and tie it to another different idea altogether. And that my friend is not fair debate, that is simply taking the high road. And the "high road" as all debaters will tell you is an assertion that can not be debated against, because to speak against it means you support the very idea that you would like to debate. So in your case if I say I support AA then obviously I am a racist. Or to try another example it would be very much like me saying:

If you don't like the prophet Daniel, then you hate the Bible, and therefore you hate God.

Its linear, but does it make sense. No it doesn't.

[Drachentöter]

The diversity issue brings up another question. At the end of the school year, a black friend of mine got a bunch of brochures from colleges that advertised the fact that the vast majority (if not all) of the students are African American. Should Affirmative Action apply to those schools? Aren't they depriving their students of a diverse learning environment by giving black applicants an advantage over other applicants?

Yes, if the student body is overwhelmingly black, they are depriving their students of a diverse learning environment and they are most likely perpetuating racism. I'm not one of those who believes white people deserve to be a minority because they dominated or are currently dominating.

However, at the moment, colleges are overwhelmingly white. At least, that's the impression I'm getting. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I know many would like to "forget race" and say that everyone is equal, but I don't think that can be done until we get more representation from all races in government. We are stll dealing with racism today. Against muslims because of recent events, against hispanics because of illegal immigration, against asians because of negative stereotypes, and in the south some whites still believe in white supremacy over blacks.

No, in order to "forget race" we have to get everyone on equal footing. Otherwise we'd be quitting the game before it finished. Until then, I think a small (and I stress small) amount of affirmative action should be permitted.

[Zechs]

AA was made beacuse people in the past thought it was ok to hire on race alone,so many minorties got the raw end of the deal because they wern't born white. So to nagate this the gorvment made AA. Sadly AA is still needed because there are still some morons out there who think it's ok to hire by race. So until we are all treated as equal AA should stay.

[RKillian]

However, at the moment, colleges are overwhelmingly white. At least, that's the impression I'm getting. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

A large part of that is the negative culture pervading black communities. Yes, I have to say rappers. There are other groups, but they're the only ones I can prove without government statistics. Have you ever heard someone be criticised for "acting white"? I don't know why people have to be ridiculed for trying to be successful.

I mean, yknow, alot of white people have gotten fed up with their conditions and worked their butts off to improve them. Sure, there are poor white people and rich black people. And so on for other groups of people. To say otherwise would be stupid.

The problem, with both sides, is that people in general just don't want to do anything for themselves. Career welfarers, for example, know that handout is guaranteed. So why bother doing anything? If your requirements in college are lower, why bother to learn or study that extra bit? You see where this leads, and it's to the dumbing down of education followed by a decrease in the standard of living.

I know many would like to "forget race" and say that everyone is equal, but I don't think that can be done until we get more representation from all races in government. We are stll dealing with racism today.

Against muslims because of recent events

I think its more against people who look Arab actually. Just like we pick tall people in basketball and watch fat people for heart disease. It's a simple visual recognition. And, yknow, after all the suicide bombings, I would figure, even if I was Muslim myself, that they deserved closer scrutiny for awhile.

against hispanics because of illegal immigration

No, it's because of illegal immigration and the fact that a very large majority of them are Hispanic. Some people are also sick of having Spanish used more than English in American schools too. I think that everyone should learn the right language if you plan to live in the country. I'm sure the tax free beneficiaries in Puerto Rico really work on the eldery folks in Florida too.

against asians because of negative stereotypes

I've never heard a negative stereotype about Asians. Koreans really do eat dogs and cats. Unless you're referring to people who are "offended" when people suppose they might know kungfu?

Person 1: That's cool you can defend yourself. I wish I knew kungfu!
Person 2: Racist! :::backflips and jump kicks him:::

and in the south some whites still believe in white supremacy over blacks.

It's not this way in the north eastern US.

The "worst" I could say is people here think Mike Tyson, Allen Iverson and most rappers are retarded. And the reason is explained earlier (destruction of youth's ambition). For the record, they also think white losers (Bill Clinton, the Enron execs, Dave Karesh, etc) are retarded for the same reason.

So I don't know about the deep south. Is it really that bad, like segregation bad?

No, in order to "forget race" we have to get everyone on equal footing. Otherwise we'd be quitting the game before it finished. Until then, I think a small (and I stress small) amount of affirmative action should be permitted.

That's about as dubious as Communism's mandate that the state eventually wither away. I don't have a much better solution than yelling "Everyone, get your act together already!" though.

[Drachentöter]

A large part of that is the negative culture pervading black communities. Yes, I have to say rappers. There are other groups, but they're the only ones I can prove without government statistics. Have you ever heard someone be criticised for "acting white"? I don't know why people have to be ridiculed for trying to be successful.

I mean, yknow, alot of white people have gotten fed up with their conditions and worked their butts off to improve them. Sure, there are poor white people and rich black people. And so on for other groups of people. To say otherwise would be stupid.

There are plenty of black people who want to shed the negative stereotype and get into college. Many times they are held back by poor neighborhoods and that same "negative culture" you indicate. Getting more African Americans into college would solve that problem. But white people are not the only ones who work hard and are successful, though I doubt that's what you were trying to convey.

The problem, with both sides, is that people in general just don't want to do anything for themselves. Career welfarers, for example, know that handout is guaranteed. So why bother doing anything? If your requirements in college are lower, why bother to learn or study that extra bit? You see where this leads, and it's to the dumbing down of education followed by a decrease in the standard of living.

Certainly you can't be satisifed on a welfare check if you're intent on something other than survival. Affirmative action does not "dumb down" people, since it's still extremely competitive to get in. A white kid with a 4.0 will be considered over a black kid with a 2.0, since there are so many black kids with 4.0s to consider anyway.

I think its more against people who look Arab actually. Just like we pick tall people in basketball and watch fat people for heart disease. It's a simple visual recognition. And, yknow, after all the suicide bombings, I would figure, even if I was Muslim myself, that they deserved closer scrutiny for awhile.

Uh, no, nobody deserves to be "scrutinized" because someone of their race gave them a bad name. I don't assume all Germans are anit-Semitics and megalomaniacs. I don't assume all men from Arkansas cheat on their wives or that everyone from Texas says "nucular" and is devoutly Christian. And I don't assume all arab-looking people are terrorists. It's nothing like picking a basketball player or studying a fat person, because terrorism is not a physical trait. You can not tell the heart of a man from looking at his face.

No, it's because of illegal immigration and the fact that a very large majority of them are Hispanic. Some people are also sick of having Spanish used more than English in American schools too. I think that everyone should learn the right language if you plan to live in the country. I'm sure the tax free beneficiaries in Puerto Rico really work on the eldery folks in Florida too.

I said illegal immigration. I wasn't aware Spanish was used more than English, in fact, I doubt it. There is no way that public schools would force American kids to be taught in Spanish, it's ridiculous. They could be taught Spanish in a Spanish CLASS which I think is a great idea, but all public schools teach their base classes in English, if I'm not mistaken.

I've never heard a negative stereotype about Asians. Koreans really do eat dogs and cats. Unless you're referring to people who are "offended" when people suppose they might know kungfu?

Person 1: That's cool you can defend yourself. I wish I knew kungfu!
Person 2: Racist! :::backflips and jump kicks him:::

There's a negative streotype about any race. Maybe some Koreans eat dogs and cats, but not all asians do. Not all asians are bad drivers. Not all asians are into perverse hentai. And "positive" sterotypes hurt too. You can't place the burden of "astounding martial artist" and "super asian-brain" on a person without getting to know them.

It's not this way in the north eastern US.

The "worst" I could say is people here think Mike Tyson, Allen Iverson and most rappers are retarded. And the reason is explained earlier (destruction of youth's ambition). For the record, they also think white losers (Bill Clinton, the Enron execs, Dave Karesh, etc) are retarded for the same reason.

So I don't know about the deep south. Is it really that bad, like segregation bad?

In Georgia, a school had a "whites only" prom. Police brutality does affect several minorities, including black people. Plenty of people still openly avoid and badmouth blacks.

That's about as dubious as Communism's mandate that the state eventually wither away. I don't have a much better solution than yelling "Everyone, get your act together already!" though.

There is plenty of room for improvement and we're headed in the right direction. My generation is learning not to discriminate, further generations will become used to integrated society and I hope that soon enough, race CAN be forgotten. Just not right now.

[Clayface]

I'm against "affirmative action" as its defined right now. I'm not going to say much more than that, because I've already had this conversation ad nauseum in this thread (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=64039). Read through the whole thing and you'll get some idea of where I stand (or, if you're lazy, at least read through the last page, where I get to the point).

[Damien]

Against it.

[wonderfly]

I didn't know Affirmative Action didn't apply to Asians. Aren't they minorities too? (Not that I'm saying I'm for it, I'm just curious)

Good point, which exposes the stereotyping of minorities. Asians are stereotyped as smart, so they don't need AA. Black and Hispanics are considered "dumb" so they need AA.

Other than hating those absurd steroetypes, I'd say I'm undecided about the whole thing: Yeah, we may have needed AA in the past for some things, but in this day and age, do we still need it? I say one solution that makes a nice compromise is this: we continue it for another 10 years, (or so, surely in the next few years society will progress that AA isn't needed) and then end it FOREVER.