C&C - "Big O" Season One - Week Three + [7/22 - 7/29] [Archive]

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SSJPabs

07-22-2003, 12:17 AM

I took the liberty of starting the week 3 thread and of taking DianaGohan's suggestion and adding Monday's episode.

7/21 - "Beck Comes Back" [9]
7/22 - "Winter Night Phantom" [10]
7/23 - "Daemon Seed" [11]
7/24 - "Enemy is Another Big!" [12]
7/28 - "R-D" [13]

DianaGohan

07-22-2003, 12:21 AM

Since there seems to be no one here doing the talkback, I used rule of engagement to my advantage and posted this weeks talkback. Talk here for the 4 Big O Episodes of this week, and the final Season One Episode Next Week. Here's The Schedule:

7/22 - "Beck Comes Back" [9]
7/23 - "Winter Night" [10]
7/24 - "Daemonseed" [11]
7/25 - "Enemy Is Another Big " [12]

7/29 - "R-D" [13]

So here it is. Come and talkback.

Jaguar

07-22-2003, 12:25 AM

I like this episode. As a matter of fact, I love this episode.
Yes, even Roger's patience eventually wears thin after a while.
Yes, Beck is an annoying twitbasket with a side of shrimp.
Yes, Roger...is painting?
That question about Dorothy and Roger falling in love...made me laugh.
*sings* Sometimes I feel so all allooonnneee.....

We have come to terms

SNS

07-22-2003, 12:27 AM

Now we need a mod to merge the topics...

redneckgoliath

07-22-2003, 12:28 AM

could someone explain Francis' secret to me?

Animation Otaku

07-22-2003, 12:29 AM

This was the first episode of Big O I caught during the Toonami run, and I really like it. Beck is somewhat strange, but I like that about him. Dorothy and Roger's feelings for each other is strange. But I find it odd that Beck would be able to set up Roger so easily. Doesn't he have a good reputation?

DianaGohan

07-22-2003, 12:29 AM

Well, it happen again. Another one of those "happen at basically the same time" double review thread posts. I don't know how that's happen to me... 5 times already! Oh well, I don't really care this time. It will all depend on which thread gets picked. BTW, you should of put next week's Monday's Big O episode in this talkback as well, since it's the last new Big O, and when they're only one or two days of the next week, they usually go on this week's thread.

SSJPabs

07-22-2003, 12:29 AM

"Beck Comes Back" [9]

Beck Gould breaks out of prison and wastes no time going back to his old kidnapping tricks, along the way he makes Roger Smith and R. Dorothy's lives difficult and lives to regret it.

I really like Beck as a villain, he's just this side of over the top and since we don't see him to often I don't have time to get sick of him. Besides it's good to see a "normal" criminal in Paradigm who is Roger's nemesis. Again liked the Roger/Dorothy interplay especially when she got Mind-Controlled which was pretty strange. The magnet attracting Dorothy gave me a chuckle and though the Beck Victory Deluxe couldn't beat the Prototype Megadeus let alone the Big O, it's funny seeing Beck go from confident to terrified panic.

My score? A!

Aurochs

07-22-2003, 12:30 AM

So am I having some bizarre form of deja vu, or was that opening monologue about Paradigm City recycled from an earlier episode? (I think Roger the Negotiator, but I'm not sure)

SNS

07-22-2003, 12:31 AM

So is DianaGohan's topic going to merged with this one?

Tallaid

07-22-2003, 12:32 AM

I liked this episode, a little more comedic than i was expecting but it still was interesting. I didn't expect to see Roger lose his cool like that. I just hope Beck's gone for good, i never thought he made a good villain. Overall a solid episode
-A

Umino

07-22-2003, 12:32 AM

Awsome episode, Beck was SO funny. After looking at the manga couterpart of this episode, I have to say the anime was better. In the manga the plot was about a fake Big O (Victory Deluxe) destroying the city, rather than Beck kidnapping some rich guy's son. Also Beck's girlfriend (Yam) don'st appear in the anime ethier. She's pretty cute too, the only problem I have with her is that she hangs all over Beck. Eck. Also Beck Henchmen don't seem to have names in the anime ethier.

Black Dude-Tom
Fish Lipped Dude-Kun

EDIT: Am I the only one who thinks Beck was inspired by Lupin III?

Jaguar

07-22-2003, 12:33 AM

Yep...any minute now, these two threads shall be one...

Any minute now....

...
...Any minute now....

....Any minute now...

...
Any...aw, forget it.

Aurochs

07-22-2003, 12:33 AM

The mods are MIA.

RedBoot

07-22-2003, 12:34 AM

I love this episode. In fact, I consider it the third best episode in the first season.

I just love Beck. He's kinda like the Joker, only much more pathetic. Still, he isn't a pushover, as shown here with his plan to control Dorothy. Also, the scene here where he laughs so hard he claps with his feet is one of the funniest parts in this series. Add in that he has one of my favorite english VAs, and he's one of this series's best villains (of course, there's really only two reoccurring villains, but Beck is still good).

One thing I've always wondered about is Wise's son...it seems to me that he met the woman after the Event, and they had their son...I guess the "secret" was that Wise didn't want people to know he was born out of wedlock. But then why does Roger ask whether the boy is actually Wise's son? I suppose it's possible that the woman was already pregnant when the Event happened, and to protect the boy, Wise claimed that he was the boy's father...I dunno.

Anyway, Roger really needs to work on his painting skills.

Tomorrow's episode is possibly the best episode of the series...I have trouble deciding if tomorrow's is the best, or if episode 13 is the best...anyway, anyone who's been waiting for a Datsun focused ep should watch tomorrow.

Hades

07-22-2003, 12:34 AM

So am I having some bizarre form of deja vu, or was that opening monologue about Paradigm City recycled from an earlier episode? (I think Roger the Negotiator, but I'm not sure)
yes, i believe it is the same monologue from episode 1.

i always enjoied this episode, especially the wacky Beck. holding his nose when he made ransom calls, kicking his feet together and his goatee made him look even better.

Dark

07-22-2003, 12:35 AM

wow. That went from just OK to awesome about halfway through. I guess this is where the story starts ramping up for the end... wow. "I told you it was a hard question" :eek: Fight scenes were not so hot tonight, pretty predictable but the Dorothy plot more than made up for it. Shame about the car, though.

helen855244

07-22-2003, 12:36 AM

one brother + one sister + very intimate relations = incest!

Arxane

07-22-2003, 12:36 AM

could someone explain Francis' secret to me?

I believe that Francis was an illegitmate child...he wasn't the man's son, but the son of someone his wife slept with before the memories were lost.

Sheamon

07-22-2003, 12:36 AM

Episode 9: Beck Comes Back
Well, there's good news and bad news about tonight's ep. The bad news is that I'd say outside of episode 3 this is the worst episode in the series (although as you'll see by my grade that doesn't make it bad in regards to other anime...). I really can't stand Beck, as I mentioned in my reviews for the first 2 episodes. For a show that's so serious he just seems out of place. Although I will admit the scene when Roger broke into their hideout was hilarious with their reactions and the brick hitting his assistant in the face. And someone already mentioned this I will too, can someone explain the thing with Mr. Wise to me? Roger said he's not his real son, but the way Mr. Wise talked about things it seemed like he is. This episode pretty much redeems itself with Dorothy (big surprise there :p) as usual, so its not a waste of an episode on any level. The final scene is priceless :D

And the good news? Of the four remaining episodes, 3 of them are my top 3 of the series (and for most other people as well) and the fourth while not on that level, is still quite good. We start with my favorite episode tomorrow night.

Grade: B

DianaGohan

07-22-2003, 12:40 AM

Still Kinda Pissed about the double review thread, but I'll still do the Big O Episode Review of "Beck Comes Back".

Wow, Beck makes everything fun...nier. He and his two goons make a pretty good comedy trio (notice one of them had Lupin's voice... which I'm sure was noted already) espically when they were trying to run away from a fight with the Megadus. Intresting how even with such comedic players, there was a bunch of the regular drama to this episode, such as Roger getting involved with the Wise family and Mr. Wise's son being kidnapped by Beck. Note how Roger said the same thing in the beginning like he did in episode one (about what happen 40 years ago) and how it ties into how Wise's son was born. Also intresting was Dorothy in this episode. Not only did she have her usual great interaction with Roger, but to see her manage to break free of Beck's control device (but not after a very nicley done seen of her nearly squeezing Roger to death) and then ask him what would happen if neither of them had their memories and met each other and if it was possible they would fall in love ("I told you it would not be an easy question). Also symbolic was how Roger choose to keep Dorothy's memories and risk her being controlled again and his painting of the Andriod (looks like Roger... isn't a great artist). All in all, a very nicely done episode that I give an A to.

Now if someone could just merge the threads, I would be really happy.

John Miles

07-22-2003, 12:41 AM

redneckgoliath

07-22-2003, 12:47 AM

I believe that Francis was an illegitmate child...he wasn't the man's son, but the son of someone his wife slept with before the memories were lost.
Thank you for the explanation.

Sheamon

07-22-2003, 12:48 AM

This show would be so much better without the robot fights.

I was really enjoying tonight's episode, up until the robot fight, which bored the hell out of me. It's been like that for me with pretty much every episode of this series I've caught so far: the first half of the story or so is decent to good, with an annoying, boring robot fight that takes up most of the last half. This show would be so much better if they would've just ditched the robot fighting and had Roger fight hand-to-hand with the bad guys, like Batman: The Animated Series.

C'mon, in tonight's ep it didn't take anywhere close to most of the second half (it was only 2 or 3 minutes), the same with Missing Cat as well. Infact episode 12 is really the only episode where the fight takes up close to half the show. Its more like 1/4 to 1/5 and while yes, I think most of us would like it better if they downplayed it more, it isn't ruining the show. I actually liked tonight's battle more than usual because it adds to the comedy of the episode since Beck Victory Deluxe is so overmatched by Big O :p

Oh well, you should enjoy the final episode atleast.

SSJPabs

07-22-2003, 12:49 AM

Something I've always wondered... why did the woman in the painting look like Angel? Realtive? Or just something to mess with our heads?

KingDead

07-22-2003, 12:50 AM

Anyway, Roger really needs to work on his painting skills.

No, man, that's style.

RedBoot

07-22-2003, 12:54 AM

Something I've always wondered... why did the woman in the painting look like Angel? Realtive? Or just something to mess with our heads?

Good question. As far as I know, it's never explained...though the resemblance may have something to do with why Dorothy wanted to be painted, since she seems to be a bit jealous of Angel...

livingfruitvirus

07-22-2003, 01:00 AM

we arrived too late. that doesn't happen often. :eek:

http://www.itty-bitties.com/azu_over.jpg

RedBoot

07-22-2003, 01:04 AM

we arrived too late. that doesn't happen often. :eek:

http://www.itty-bitties.com/azu_over.jpg

Hee hee. Azumanga Daioh is funny.

SSJPabs

07-22-2003, 01:10 AM

Sorry, I waited until the show started and had been going for a few minutes. Don't worry, there's always season 2.

The threads have been merged.... it's... a bit confusing... :eek::confused:

The Landstander

07-22-2003, 01:21 AM

...

:sweat:

Sorry, I had computer problems....all is well now, apparently. So...commense the comments and criticism.

So...um...don't feel like a long review....good episode, cool to see Beck return, and a neat little Dorothy breaking out of being an android moment.

Oh, reading through the thread, I'm with John Miles. I've learned to...."deal" with the robot fights, but they still do absolutely nothing for me. I mean, it would've been a lot cooler if there was some sort of fight between Beck and Roger themselves, instead of some big robot thingy.

Mynd Hed

07-22-2003, 03:38 AM

of course, there's really only two reoccurring villains

Three: Beck, Schwartzwald, and Alex Rosewater. And that's only if you don't count Angel as a villain, which she very well may turn out to be: she does "team up" with Roger on occasion, but she's also working for the enemy and shows no indication that she'll switch sides any time soon.

ClockStomper

07-22-2003, 03:40 AM

I think Dorothy DID rip up Angel's card in episode 3 after watching this episode.

Anyway, I'm tired so I'll sum it up quickly: Good episode, and the robot fight was regulated to a few minutes, so it's getting better. I loved the Dorothy/Roger scenes, their interaction makes the show what it is. A-

*Wonders why people are obsessed with being the ones who post the talkback*

RedBoot

07-22-2003, 03:48 AM

Three: Beck, Schwartzwald, and Alex Rosewater. And that's only if you don't count Angel as a villain, which she very well may turn out to be: she does "team up" with Roger on occasion, but she's also working for the enemy and shows no indication that she'll switch sides any time soon.

I was thinking about adding Rosewater. But, he hasn't really come into direct conflict with Roger, at least not in the way that Beck and Schwartzy have. I guess he counts, though.

As for Angel, there's no way to really place her. There's signs that place her on Roger's side. There's signs that place her on Rosewater's side. There's signs that place her on another side altogether. The second intro classifies her as "?" Which is quite appropriate.

Sampo

07-22-2003, 04:41 AM

I think Dorothy DID rip up Angel's card in episode 3 after watching this episode.
...

Yup you are right. We didn't actually see Dorothy rip up the card, but it was implied. I think it went something like Dorothy was playing the Blues on the piano, Roger asked why she was playing that tune, Dorothy said something like "I just felt like it", then there is a clip of the torn up card in the trash :)

Anyway, this episode gives another example of how the events that occured 40 years ago can have on Paradigm City. People who lost their memories sought comfort from one and another... sometimes leading to awkward situations when the truth finally surfaces. Well in this case it turned out deadly :(

Odd thing I didn't understand about this episode:
Beck frames Roger, that's a given. But why the heck is Roger so paranoid that he might be arrested at that crime scene? Dastun and Roger seem to be on good terms, so wouldn't Dastun believed that Beck framed him? Gah so instead of calmly going to Dastun and explaining things (heck, Roger's employer could help him out with details) he jumps out the window, lands into his moving car, and then does a quick paint job to avoid the Military Police. I thought that action sequence was fun to watch but it didn't make much sense why it had to happen..

Two favorite scenes:

Dorothy's BIG hug!

Beck's giant robot doing a little footstomp dance with its arms raised while it crushed that building. Then the look on Beck's face as Big O makes its apperance. I thought that looked funny :)

Wounded_Dragon

07-22-2003, 04:47 AM

Big O *is* Roger. At least, he's an integral aspect of his personality. Roger's normally a calm, collected professional, even when getting shot at. However, when he jumps into Big O, his personality shifts ever so slightly. He still has that professionalism, but his cockiness/heroism/boldness go up a notch. It almost makes him seem schizophrenic...which might explain his slightly warped painting of Dorothy (yes, I know the difference between schizophrenia and dissociative identity disorder).

Dorothy/Roger...what can I say, I love the way these two interact. This is one of the few episodes from Toonami that I have a mostly clear recollection of. The angry protectiveness of Dorothy Roger exhibits. Dorothy's shorting out the controller. Roger getting her to safety and 'avenging' her. The trust he had that it was her that shorted the controller and not the cheap fuses. The awkwardness coming from him after she told him her second question and her calm "I told you it was a difficult question."

I'm a little surprised at the ease with which Roger was framed. Not just with Roger falling for the trap, but Dan for falling for it as well. Some old friend...

Beck and co....gotta go with Roger on this one: stupid punks.

And remember...nothing says *-*-*slap like getting the smack down from a giant robot.

SSJPabs

07-22-2003, 04:54 AM

Dan is by this time suspecting that Roger is piloting the old 'deus, and he'd like nothing better than to stop the wholesale destruction of the city that Roger causes, particularly in the upcoming episodes. Roger couldn't afford to be captured and taken downtown before he was cleared or released. Beck wasn't going to wait around for him, and he didn't want to give Beck the satisfaction of beating him at anything.

Looking forward to seeing the uncut verison of tomorrow's episode.

Sampo

07-22-2003, 05:13 AM

Near the end of this episode, Roger finishes his painting of Dorothy by brushing in her eyes. Anyone want to take a shot at what this could symbolize?

Wounded_Dragon

07-22-2003, 05:45 AM

Near the end of this episode, Roger finishes his painting of Dorothy by brushing in her eyes. Anyone want to take a shot at what this could symbolize?

Her having a soul.

Karl Olson

07-22-2003, 05:50 AM

on the filling the eyes thing: It could be symbolic of Dorothy's humanity.

on Beck Comes Back: Funniest fight of the whole. I just love seeing it get it's head blown clear off. Further still, the whole setup angle was well done. I'd make light of Roger's painting skils, but I'm one to talk (http://www.karlrolson.com/bigooil.jpg).

Tomarrow, the best episode of Big O ever IMO, and in all of it's wonderfully uncut glory. The ending gets me every time.

Yal

07-22-2003, 07:36 AM

Delthayre

07-22-2003, 10:25 AM

"Beck Comes Back" was a rather good episode, and it demonstrated why The Big O could be considered a great series. It's versatile in it's storytelling, thus far we have seen comedy and varied drama together in an unforced and effective way. I'll grant that the sequence with the Griffin in the middle strained my ability to suspend disbelief, but that's trivial in the grand scheme. I found the explanation and demonstration Roger's actual negotiating work in this episode impressive and I liked it's portrayal. The characterization of Roger in the episode was particularly strong and well played by Blum.

One intersting note for me is that while Dorothy was mind-controlled (so to speak) by Beck, the, "character overcomes mind control through will," element was actually believable. Dorothy as a unique being has developed a great deal since the beginning, enough that I was able to actual buy into a usually unconvincing cliche. And even if you don't, Norman provides a nice alternative answer for it at the end (cheap fuses shorted out by a superior system). Finally, the fight between the Beck Victory Deluxe and Big O at the end was, so far as I am concerned, one of the more engaging of the series (although I haven't seen the fight of episode 12, which I believe will outdo it). The exaggerated and cartoonish sound effects that accompanied the Victory Deluxe gave the whole thing a strange, yet charming atmosphere. All in all, an excellent episode.

herbkir

07-22-2003, 11:18 AM

Anybody know what local time Big O airs in Denver? I'm going to be in Denver on business Mon. when #13, the RD episode, runs and would like to know if AS runs there on Central, Mountain or Pacific time. (^_*)

Arde

07-22-2003, 11:55 AM

This show would be so much better without the robot fights.

I was really enjoying tonight's episode, up until the robot fight, which bored the hell out of me. It's been like that for me with pretty much every episode of this series I've caught so far: the first half of the story or so is decent to good, with an annoying, boring robot fight that takes up most of the last half. This show would be so much better if they would've just ditched the robot fighting and had Roger fight hand-to-hand with the bad guys, like Batman: The Animated Series.
If you don't get it now, then you won't get it also till the end.
Big O is in its core a mecha show-no sense or shame in hiding it.
But what makes it different from the rest of the regurgitated mecha genre is the fact it's so thick coated with many different elements (noir, detective stories, religious bits, etc) that it's hard to accept it as one.
But believe me, once you accept Big O as a mecha series, it's gonna be an eye opener.
Remember! The robot fights aren't some horribly tacked scenes in the series, it's the essence and true core of the series.

pabcool

07-22-2003, 11:57 AM

"Big O"

Another great episode. While Beck was very annoying here, I enjoyed the plot thoroughly. Dorothy was priceless. Nothing more to say here.

I give "Beck Comes Back" a VERY strong B+.

SSJPabs

07-22-2003, 12:07 PM

Bladesong26

07-22-2003, 12:30 PM

Fabulous episode. The power came back on in my house just minutes after it started, so (hopefully) I didn't miss much.
I actually enjoy Beck's character quite a bit. He's a great whacked-out contrast to Roger's usual cool, collected demeanor. I also think it's that wackiness that infuriated Roger even more. Don't mess with the man's android/ward/possible love interest!
You know, this episode really brought home the strength of Lia Sargent's performance. Since she delivers all of Dorothy's lines in that robotic monotone, any of the emotion behind them is entirely up to interpretation. Dorothy's second question could have been anything from a declaration of love to just a question about human behavior. It's very fascinating.
And Dorothy and Roger's interaction in this episode give me the opportunity to ask something that's bothered me since Kikaider's run, which series didn't really address either.
Why would you program a robot to have romantic/sexual inclinations and feelings? They serve a clear and obvious purpose in organic beings, but that purpose doesn't exist in a robot. Saddling an android with those kind of feelings is immensely cruel in my mind, since they won't ever have an outlet.
Just a thought...

Beat

07-22-2003, 12:32 PM

Dorthy is a great improvement on the usual "dreary-eyed girl" cliche, started by Rei from EVA. Dorthy has something those people don't. A personality.

Good ep. (RUN AWAY!!)

randomguy

07-22-2003, 12:39 PM

Dorthy is a great improvement on the usual "dreary-eyed girl" cliche, started by Rei from EVA. Dorthy has something those people don't. A personality.

Good ep. (RUN AWAY!!)

Exactly. I remember catching the first episode and thinking "Oh boy, another angsty mystery girl." How pleasantly surprised I was as the series continued.

Arde

07-22-2003, 12:47 PM

Arde.... in the manga the Big O isn't even used in every story. I like the show, a lot but it might work out better if the Big O didn't wear a skirt when it fights :p Those little curves at it's waist and it's feet really annoy me. Oh well, I like the robot as a whole and the show's great.Let's just consider that as *cough*stylized*cough*....hurmm...

That's what we always say to stuffs like those (kikaider, Lupin, HM, Reign), no?

And Dorothy and Roger's interaction in this episode give me the opportunity to ask something that's bothered me since Kikaider's run, which series didn't really address either.
Why would you program a robot to have romantic/sexual inclinations and feelings? They serve a clear and obvious purpose in organic beings, but that purpose doesn't exist in a robot. Saddling an android with those kind of feelings is immensely cruel in my mind, since they won't ever have an outlet. Actually, this was somewhat touched on in Kikaider by the bat-vampire android that took Mitsuko hostage. Check the ep again and you'll see what I mean.

CaptainRed

07-22-2003, 12:51 PM

So much to love in this episode. Bring Back My Ghost was coated in vintage noir, but this one was left soaking overnight in it. Escaped criminal with a score to settle, characters that actually grow facial hair, plenty of Roger/Dorothy quips flying back and forth, and lots of intercharacterdevelopment between them. The car getting wrecked(:(), someone actually getting hit by the debris from a dramatic entry, Big O taking damage... maybe I should just settle for pasting an episode summary here for all the stuff I liked.

Actually liked Beck, and his scheming working well from a distance, but falling apart when it came to a fight on more level ground.

Something odd I noticed- that statuette Roger uses in his lesson on negotiations bears an odd resemblance to Dorothy, especially as it first appears(from the back). The hat basically nails her hair, then it looks like her coat with her arms coming down in front of her, and then her dress below that. Can't quite work out how the statuette's real hands work in with the image, and object the Dorothy image has sitting on one of the unaccounted for hands I can't quite make out either. It looks like it might be some kind of a humanoid shape, with a halo or something. Or not. Just figured out that that is the figure's fourth hand, and that I was mixing in the piece of wall just below it that is showing through roger's arm with it. Dorothy observation stands... with no guesses as to how the hands fit in.

Can anyone tell what the real statuette actually is?

But I find it odd that Beck would be able to set up Roger so easily. Doesn't he have a good reputation?

He does have a good reputation, but a good reputation doesn't equal infallibility. As Roger said in the first (two) episode(s), negotiation requires good faith on both sides. That good faith occasionally gets him into trouble, it seems.

one brother + one sister + very intimate relations = incest!

I'm also a bit surprised that a whole city forgetting their parentage didn't relax some of the stigma around Francis's circumstance, although I guess this is a Japanese story, set in New York or not.

I'm also leaning towards the "unjust truth" being incest, whatever Mr. Wise and Mary's prior relationship had been. The "out of wedlock" problem would be a fairly simple one to solve(quick marraige when she finds she's pregnant, then just kind of hush things for a little while. Heck the comparative stigma would be very low), but one of discovered incest is far stickier.

Just rewatched the episode(again), and noticed how really nice the interaction between Roger and Norman was at the end. Interesting to see emotions and sentimentality seeping into both Roger and Dorothy in their own ways. Norman, used to the old Roger, gives a very logical and pragmatic course of action, and then promptly takes it back(seeming to chalk it up as a lapse in judgement) when Roger gives his sentimental response.

This could get interesting, considering these developments in Roger, and what Yal mentioned(executioner's detatchment).

This show would be so much better without the robot fights.

On one or two of the fights, I'd agree with you, but I actually have enjoyed the vast majority of them, including the one in last night's episode. The story wasn't truncated nor otherwised forced to suffer at the expense of the fight(largely in part thanks to the lack of an extended repeated boot up sequence). In some acts, they are integral to the story("Underground Terror"), and others, logically necessary("Beck Comes Back"(he is sprung by the Beck Victory Deluxe, so it kinda had to be brought back again)). The only act coming to mind right now that really shouldn't have had a giant robot fight is "A Legacy of Amadeus"(Yeah, the thing with Instro's hands had to be done some way, but the giant robot fight seemed... tacked on).

Odd thing I didn't understand about this episode:
Beck frames Roger, that's a given. But why the heck is Roger so paranoid that he might be arrested at that crime scene? Dastun and Roger seem to be on good terms, so wouldn't Dastun believed that Beck framed him? Gah so instead of calmly going to Dastun and explaining things (heck, Roger's employer could help him out with details) he jumps out the window, lands into his moving car, and then does a quick paint job to avoid the Military Police. I thought that action sequence was fun to watch but it didn't make much sense why it had to happen..

Being arrested and released takes time. Roger and Dastun aren't on the best of terms(thus the "bottle polished off a few days ago" bit), and Roger doesn't want to make Dastun's life easier at any kind of expense to himself. Dastun might have believed Roger(outside chance, says I), and Roger's employer might have corroborated his story, but again that would have take a good deal more time than Roger was willing to spend.

Wounded Dragon wondered why Dastun fell for the frame job so easily— As said, he and Roger aren't on the friendliest of terms, and as was shown in "Bring Back My Ghost", Dastun is very into the honor of the Military Police. If there was enough evidence to take Roger into custody, Dastun wouldn't(and didn't) hold back.

It made perfect sense to me. Watch some classic noir, or read some crime novels. PIs don't like getting arrested.

I'd make light of Roger's painting skils, but I'm one to talk (http://www.karlrolson.com/bigooil.jpg).

I have to congratulate you on having the courage to post any such artistic endeavor to a forum like this. :¬)

Apart from Roger, I liked the rest of the picture... except, ironically enough, Dorothy's eye. Better than I could probably do either way. :¬)

And in response to something from last week's talkback...

While we're on the subject of little details, again Roger pays his respects to the dead by arranging them just so and praying over them. Since he already wears black and his white shirt has, surprise, a white collar...
Whoa! I just had a blinding flash of obvious symbolism there. Hmmm...that makes the religious subtext LOTS easier to understand. Or at the very least, explains why Roger is the Big O's pilot. Thanks for pointing that out. :)

I think what you caught onto was a red herring. I've seen a lot of symbolism pointing to heaven and hell, angels and devils, and ghosts and wraiths, but none to any kind of officers of a church. Roger wears black and white, in a home of black, white, and muted colors. Outside the domes those are the only colors you see.(as contrasted with the vibrant colors inside the domes, and especially the higher up you go in Paradigm's offices) Note that Roger has no crosses or anything of the kind, and as I recall hasn't run across any in person(Eugene surrounded himself with them, and brought Dorothy into that room, but Roger never went in there).

Roger follows a code of chivalry(though his house admittance rule, and some of his jokes seem rather rakish). I think his arrangement of their bodies was out of a respect held in that code.

Big O is cast in the name of God, not God Himself. One who wields an executioner's weapon need not be a priest.

"I warned you it was a tough question" might be the line of the series. :¬)

(Also good was: "Granted, when it comes to holding a pose you beat everyone hands down.")

Leaving some stuff out... believe it or not. I think the above should be enough for one post(if by "one" you mean "three")

*honk*
Cappy "Thanks DianaGohan for mentioning that was Lupin's voice... as it was bothering me until I saw that" Red

KaidoYuji8Adam

07-22-2003, 01:04 PM

Wow. I'm VERY glad I watched Big O this time around.
What an excellent show.

I never got to see the episode which is on tonight. However, it sounds wonderful!
So, the way everyone is talking about it, is it really bloody or something? I'm thinking this because everyone is saying "I can't wait to see this episode in its uncut glory"

Big O is the BEST!

SSJPabs

07-22-2003, 01:31 PM

A lot of those religious questions are dealt with in the final set of episodes, particularly tonights and tomorrow's.

Sheamon

07-22-2003, 01:57 PM

Dorthy is a great improvement on the usual "dreary-eyed girl" cliche, started by Rei from EVA. Dorthy has something those people don't. A personality.

Excuse me? Rei didn't start that. I'm not sure who was the first anime character of that type, but Tokiko Mima(my avatar) is just one example of a character just like that who existed before Evangelion. -_-

Beat

07-22-2003, 02:00 PM

Excuse me? Rei didn't start that. I'm not sure who was the first anime character of that type, but Tokiko Mima(my avatar) is just one example of a character just like that who existed before Evangelion. -_-

Rei was the most popular, not the first. Dorthy's still better.

Bladesong26

07-22-2003, 02:21 PM

Actually, this was somewhat touched on in Kikaider by the bat-vampire android that took Mitsuko hostage. Check the ep again and you'll see what I mean.
That episode is when the issue is first addressed, true, but the question does not receive a satisfactory answer in my mind. I don't buy "it gives androids the full range of human expression." That ignores an awful lot of scientific knowledge, Darwin's theories for one. Anyway...

A red herring, CaptainRed? I dunno, it's possible. I guess what my insight was is this: If we think of the Big O as wielding God-like power, then it would make sense for a priest (one who has the authority to act in the name of God) or character with the trappings of that office to pilot the Big O. That's really all there was to that thought.

Michael

07-22-2003, 02:29 PM

good epsiode i thought :)

Was confused first time i saw it about the kid thing, than after thinking it made sense that it wasnt his duh lol

Tapout

07-22-2003, 03:16 PM

Wow. This was the first episode I actually got into. The rest have been ok, but this was great. I'm with the crowd who likes Beck. For some reason guys who act like morons are a lot funnier to me than they probably should be. Also liked the fact that one of Beck's goons really looked like the Joker.

Last point: Am I the only one who can't stop thinking of the First Angel from Eva every time Big O's arm-thing goes back? It was really there tonight, with it grabbing the thing's head and crushing it like that.

RedBoot

07-22-2003, 04:03 PM

I never got to see the episode which is on tonight. However, it sounds wonderful!
So, the way everyone is talking about it, is it really bloody or something? I'm thinking this because everyone is saying "I can't wait to see this episode in its uncut glory"

I's not horribly bloody, but it was one of the most edited episodes of the Toonami run (IIRC eps 8, 10, 11, and 13 were edited the most). There was one entire scene that was cut, it's only 20 seconds long or so but it's a fairly emotional scene.

It is a great episode. The plot is just very well done. I don't want to spoil any of it, but be sure and pay attention. The ending of the episode hints at something, and if you watch closely, you'll be able to figure out what it's trying to tell you.

I've seen tonight's episode around 15 times, and every time I've been utterly amazed by the end of the episode.

KaidoYuji8Adam

07-22-2003, 05:43 PM

I's not horribly bloody, but it was one of the most edited episodes of the Toonami run (IIRC eps 8, 10, 11, and 13 were edited the most). There was one entire scene that was cut, it's only 20 seconds long or so but it's a fairly emotional scene.

It is a great episode. The plot is just very well done. I don't want to spoil any of it, but be sure and pay attention. The ending of the episode hints at something, and if you watch closely, you'll be able to figure out what it's trying to tell you.

I've seen tonight's episode around 15 times, and every time I've been utterly amazed by the end of the episode.

Yay I can't wait.

Yeah, I also think of Evangelion when I see the Big O's arm go back. And the noise it makes...Eva...gah

Chrono1995

07-22-2003, 06:36 PM

Unfortunately, I missed last night's episode, but seeing as I've watched it quite a few times - it's no real big deal. I guess I'll catch it if it reruns.

Tonight's episode, along with "R-D" and "Enemy Is Another Big", is one of my favorite in the entire series. I'm so glad it's being aired uncut. I don't know if this episode will be rated TV-PG or TV-14 (although I'm certain "R-D" will be TV-14), but as I recall this episode dealt heavily with death and some religious imagery, not to mention the usual smoking and drinking.

And yes, the ending will get to you. I won't say anymore.

Tienshin

07-22-2003, 07:05 PM

And yes, the ending will get to you. I won't say anymore.

Definitely, I have been looking forward to this episode all day.

Wounded_Dragon

07-22-2003, 07:06 PM

PearlRose86

07-22-2003, 08:01 PM

A little late, but nonetheless, my comment's on last night's episode.

As mentioned on the first or second page, I also thought that the girl in the portrait on the mantle, which was later explained to be Mary, *was* Angel or a relative of Angel's. And I'm betting on the illegitmate child theory.

Dorothy amazed me, as usual, with her wit... I loved the "I told you it was a hard question" quote at the end of the episode. Dorothy's character continues to amaze me, and I just *love* Lia Stargent's preformance to pieces.

I also really like Roger Smith's development, and finally seeing his patience pushed to the limit. (His painting too. 'Dorothy', in abstract! Nice comment about the 'eyes' too.)

Beck may be a quirky/silly villian, but I really liked the mecha fight between him and Roger at the end.

And now, only 4 hours until the highly-anticipated "Winter Night Phantom"! (On the East Coast, that is.)

-Maggie

Anyone00

07-22-2003, 08:27 PM

Good ep. like all the rest.

As for the younger Wise, I always figured the woman the older Wise was with was already pregnant when they met after the event and hence the kid isn't his(like Dorothy noted). Wise is the head of a large company (with a certain parent company of coarse), so if the younger Wise was found out not to really be the elder Wise's (biological) son after all the years of everyone else thought he was the younger Wise's claim on the company could be disputed and the running of the company might end up in the hands of someone else.

As for Angel...
...I figure she is Dan's Niece. Watch tonight’s ep.

G1Ravage

07-22-2003, 08:32 PM

As for Angel...
...I figure she is Dan's Niece. Watch tonight’s ep.

WHAT?? You mean Dastun's???? How do you figure??

:eek:

Anyone00

07-22-2003, 08:40 PM

WHAT?? You mean Dastun's???? How do you figure??

:eek:

Yes, Dan Dastun.

Just watch tonight’s ep. (particularly the end), and watch the last ep. of season one(and take note what Angel is holding at the end of that ep.).

Karl Olson

07-22-2003, 09:20 PM

I have to congratulate you on having the courage to post any such artistic endeavor to a forum like this. :¬)

Apart from Roger, I liked the rest of the picture... except, ironically enough, Dorothy's eye. Better than I could probably do either way. :¬)

Well, using oil paint for that subject wasn't probably the best idea either, though I didn't do much better with latex paint (http://www.karlrolson.com/bigolatex.jpg). Thanks for the kind words though.

Nia

07-22-2003, 09:46 PM

I like the flashbacks of Dorothy in the red dress. I gotta find out more about that. This is just my 2nd episode viewed, so the monologue at the beginning helped me. I'm just not used to an action sequence with giant robots interrupting an otherwise cool plot. Shoot me if you must, but when it happens it's like Cowboy Bebop meeting the Transformers. Weird...but strangely addictive...can't...stop...w-watching...now...

Ferquin

07-22-2003, 10:09 PM

Yes, Dan Dastun.

Just watch tonight’s ep. (particularly the end), and watch the last ep. of season one(and take note what Angel is holding at the end of that ep.).

I doubt just 'cause she's holding a balloon makes Angel related to Dastun.

On a related note, remember the little flashback of Dastun watching the movie as a kid with that girl? I'm pretty sure that that girl was the woman that headed that terrorist group whom Daston shot at the end of "Winter Night Phantom".

I kinda think that the balloon thing is just more odd symbolism thrown into the series. Angel being Dastun's niece is a little farfetched. I still think she's related to that girl in the painting or is a clone of her. I mean, how do we know there's no cloning or duplicating going on, especially with RD and Dorothy in the final act. Maybe the original Dorothy Wainwright wasn't really dead and she became RD, being in that box underground the whole time. Wainwright was pretty old and maybe all these kids with the barcode eyes were all frozen someplace. That would explain why Roger's so young even though the Amnesia hit forty years ago.

Mynd Hed

07-22-2003, 11:51 PM

I'm also leaning towards the "unjust truth" being incest, whatever Mr. Wise and Mary's prior relationship had been. The "out of wedlock" problem would be a fairly simple one to solve(quick marraige when she finds she's pregnant, then just kind of hush things for a little while. Heck the comparative stigma would be very low), but one of discovered incest is far stickier.

I dunno about that, I do agree that an incest taboo would almost certainly be more shameful than an illegitimacy taboo, however A.) young Wise was forty years old, meaning he was conceived BEFORE the mass amnesia hit, and B.) there was the whole deal with young Wise and old Wise having different color eyes, which implies that old Wise was not young Wise's biological father.

Why would you program a robot to have romantic/sexual inclinations and feelings? They serve a clear and obvious purpose in organic beings, but that purpose doesn't exist in a robot. Saddling an android with those kind of feelings is immensely cruel in my mind, since they won't ever have an outlet.
Just a thought...

Well, Dorothy was programmed to be, as nearly as possible, a copy of her "father's" dead daughter. So he might have programmed the potential for such feelings into her in order to more closely approximate the "real" Dorothy Waynewright, without really thinking ahead to the logical consequences of such an act.

That said, on to my...

Act IX: Beck Comes Back Episode Review

First, the bad: I just plain don't like Beck as a villain. He's a little too wimpy, a little too wacky, and when you get right down to it he's really just a random thug (albeit an occasionally clever random thug) without much in the way of backstory or interesting motivation (unlike, say, Schwartzwald). Also-- and I hate to say this, since I nearly always LOVE the mecha fights in Big O-- but the one in this episode seemed kind of pointless. You can make the argument that "Beck Victory Deluxe broke him out of prison so they had to have it come back," but really, I think they could've contrived a better way to get Beck out of prison that wouldn't have to lead to such a one-sided fight at the end of the episode.
However, as (nearly) always in Big O, the mecha and action in this episode were just a thin layer of candy coating around a very good character-driven story. Especially interesting to me was the interaction between Roger and Dorothy. First, we get to see just how protective Roger really is of Dorothy: we saw a little of this in Missing Cat, but it was unclear in that episode whether Roger was so pissed at Eugene because of the kidnapping of Dorothy, the murder of Perro's parents, or both. In this episode, it becomes crystal clear: anybody who messes with Dorothy is going to have to deal with a VERY pissed off negotiator.
The first really obvious hint of Dorothy's feelings toward Roger at the end of the episode was nice, too-- and don't worry, Dorothy fans, this won't be the last.
I liked how this episode offered up two issues that each had two very different but equally plausible explanations. First, the obvious one: Beck's mind control device shorting out. Did Dorothy cause that to happen through her own strength of will, or did it simply short out due to cheap, faulty circuitry? Those who, like Roger, are hopeless romantics can believe that it was Dorothy who did it. On the other hand, those who, like Norman, are pragmatists, can believe the pragmatic explanation, and neither one will ever be proven right or wrong. This is a really nice symbol for the question of free will in general: we observe that humans are capable of making unpredictable choices. The romantics out there believe that these choices are the result of free will, while the pragmatists believe that they are the product of genetics and upbringing, the natural and inevitable result of natural forces interacting with one another, and that free will is an illusion caused by the complexity of those interactions. In all likelihood, neither point of view will ever be proven right or wrong. A masterful bit of symbolism there.
Second, another "open question" that I really just noticed today. When Dorothy is crushing Roger to death, she stammers, "Roger... I love you." Now, the first few times I watched this episode, I assumed that Beck made her say this with his mind control device: it would fit in perfectly with his sick sense of humor, after all. But this time, I thought of an alternate explanation: what if Beck didn't bother to put her vocal functions under his control? After all, as long as she's doing what he wants and killing Roger, what does he care what she SAYS? In which case, Dorothy, believing that Roger will very shortly be dead, is confessing her feelings to him while she still can.
Now, as I said, there's no real way to prove one way or the other which explanation is the correct one. And if you asked her, Dorothy would probably reply with a caustic comment strongly implying that it was all the mind control device... but would it be the truth? (-: Just something to think about.

Overall Grade: B+

Mr_Millions

07-23-2003, 12:09 AM

It's too bad the Military Police does't have Professor Farnsworth's translator. It come in handy for catching evil French terrorists.

Infinity Blade

07-23-2003, 12:24 AM

Ah, I love "Winter Night Phantom"...

One thing though; doesn't Dastun's comment about that guy in episode 4 being "German" COMPLETELY contradict this episode? Since I don't have the first DVD, was this a dub flub, or did the Japanese version make this mistake too?

...

As well, does anyone else LOVE the pose Big O makes in this episode when it shoots its eye beams in this episode? XP I don't know why, I just find that really amusing...

RedBoot

07-23-2003, 12:26 AM

As well, does anyone else LOVE the pose Big O makes in this episode when it shoots its eye beams in this episode? XP I don't know why, I just find that really amusing...

Yup, with his arms pointing forward...kinda funny.

Anyway, as I've said, I love this one. I'm looking forward to seeing how everyone else interprets the ending.

Aurochs

07-23-2003, 12:30 AM

I missed the last five minutes of this episode. It cut off when the military police officer (Don't remember his name) noticed the balloon van, and it came back on during Roger's ending soliloquy, right before it ended. Can someone give me a synopsis of that period in the episode?

Chrono1995

07-23-2003, 12:34 AM

*SPOILERS AHEAD*

Big O - episode 10 - "Winter Night Phantom"

This episode moved at a slower pace, but what a story it told. I loved the way this one was written with the re-occuring flashbacks, the little touches of information, and the trademark noir-style storytelling.

To be perfectly honest, this episode is probably the most compelling episode of Big O. This episode shows how adult this show is without gore and profanity.

I can sum this episode up in one word: Wow. I also can't describe it in words.

Starting with this episode, the main focus of the storyline slowly comes into view, with the statements about mankind's current condition and the fact that foreigners are very rare. But now I'm whipping up some very religiously-based theories, probably even moreso than Evangelion.

Two questions for you:
1. Why did Angel look so stern when Rosewater made that comment about foreigners?
2. Is that girl in the theater at the very end the same one Dastun shot? What does that final shot mean?

Mr_Millions

07-23-2003, 12:34 AM

Anyway, as I've said, I love this one. I'm looking forward to seeing how everyone else interprets the ending.

I had forgotten the ending from its Toonami run. All I know is that it gave me chills. It's like an episode of Twilight Zone. That brings me to the question: is there anything written that acknowloges Twilight Zone as partial inspiration for Big O?

Infinity Blade

07-23-2003, 12:34 AM

I'm looking forward to seeing how everyone else interprets the ending.

I would give my interpretation...

...but I'm frankly never sure HOW exactly to interpret the ending. @@;

RedBoot

07-23-2003, 12:37 AM

1. Why did Angel look so stern when Rosewater made that comment about foreigners?

That's the very basis for one of my theories.

That Angel is possibly a foreigner. It seems that she works for Rosewater, but as we've seen, she's very unpredictable. The way she looked made me think that she was a bit annoyed with his comment. She may actually be in some sort of anti-Paradigm group, maybe even one related to the one from tonight's episode. There's more evidence in ep13 that supports this.

Hades

07-23-2003, 12:38 AM

1. Why did Angel look so stern when Rosewater made that comment about foreigners?

it could be that Angel is a foreigner. Roger said that the only people who regret the loss of memories are the very old, everyone else learns to get along without memories. Angel has been trying to get memory fragments in order to make money, but it could also be because she is from another country, possibly the one that caused the amnesia in the first place. this is all speculation though.

Anyone00

07-23-2003, 12:41 AM

Ferquin, I know the entire Angel relation thing is probably a case of 2+2=5, but that's just what I figure.

Isn't a fair assumption from that final scene that the Woman in this ep. is Dan's sister that could have became separated from him when the amnesia hit?

Animation Otaku

07-23-2003, 12:41 AM

That's the very basis for one of my theories.

That Angel is possibly a foreigner. It seems that she works for Rosewater, but as we've seen, she's very unpredictable. The way she looked made me think that she was a bit annoyed with his comment. She may actually be in some sort of anti-Paradigm group, maybe even one related to the one from tonight's episode. There's more evidence in ep13 that supports this.

I could definitely see that being the case. Especially with the way that she is constantly helping out Roger Smith. I would guess that she's probably part of a group that is just as corrupt as Paradigm, if that is the case. After all, she certainly seems that way.

Sheamon

07-23-2003, 12:44 AM

Episode 10: Winter Night Phantom
Best episode of the series in my view, this episode is somewhat of a departure from what we usually see in the series. Dorothy and Norman don't appear at all, Roger's role is diminished considerably and outside of the final episode, the Big O fight is the shortest of the entire series. But thats what makes this show so good. That it can keep a large variety of storylines under the umbrella of this mysterious city. As great as Dorothy is, she isn't missed one bit because Dastun fills in the gap. At last gets his proper development, pretty much rounding out the character development we need to be content with each of the main characters (outside of Norman of course who hopefully will get his in season 2). Why else is this episode so great? Its great at eliciting an emotional response, much like the Missing Cat episode. Dastun finally meets the mystery woman thats been plauging his dreams for as long as he can remember and he has to uphold his duty despite that and kill her. Adding to that is the possibility that this is his own sister he's killing, as implied by Roger's "Not to mention..." line and the final scene. The one thing is that she doesn't look old enough to be his sister, since she didn't appear to be that much younger than him in the flashback. Thats fine by me. Thats keeps it ambigious. Which is just one of the reasons why this show has so much appeal. Hopefully this is something they will NOT address in the second season as its handled perfectly here. Nothing more needs to be said. I can't help but mention that this episode is exactly like one of my favorite movies, 12 Monkeys, perhaps thats why I love it so much. The main character has a dream of his childhood of an incident with a man in an airport only ending up to be that very man (I won't go in anymore detail to avoid spoiling people).

One final thing. Anyone notice the Instro cameo? Forgot about that :p

Grade: A+

Tomorrow we get to see the most ridiculous edit in the history of Cartoon Network restored. Bask in all the glory of it and be shocked at why they would cut such a tame thing.

Duke

07-23-2003, 12:44 AM

TAICHI!!!!

...

Taichi's dead... :( :( :( :( Poor Taichi...

Tonight's Giant-Robot-of-the-Day looks like something I can buy at a Family Dollar. That amuses me to no end.

RedBoot

07-23-2003, 12:45 AM

I had forgotten the ending from its Toonami run. All I know is that it gave me chills. It's like an episode of Twilight Zone. That brings me to the question: is there anything written that acknowloges Twilight Zone as partial inspiration for Big O?

I've never seen it said that the Twilight Zone is one of Big O's inspirations, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Anyway, I'll give my interpretation of the ending.

The woman from the movie, the one in Dastun's flashbacks, was his mother. She was an active anti-Paradigm activist, and as the episode said, she was jailed along with many of her colleagues. At the end of the episode, Roger mentions that there was no record of her having a daughter, much less a...and he trails off. I think he was going to say there was no record of her having a son either. Dastun was the boy watching the film at the end, and the girl with him was his sister, who was the woman he shot at the end. They both had the dreams from when they saw the movie, and it was in their memories. Of course, there's some other issues to consider, such as why Dastun doesn't remember he had a sister, or where she had been since then, but I don't know those answers for sure. Dastun is probably in his 50s, and I figure he saw the movie before the Event happened. After the Event occured, he probably forgot who his family was, which would explain why he has a different last name and doesn't know who his mother or sister are.

Anyway, that theory may be a bit shaky, but that's what I got from it.

Chrono1995

07-23-2003, 12:47 AM

About "Winter Night Phantom"...

I think the girl in the episode is the daughter of the actress. Early in Dastun's life, he watched the film that keep re-occuring in the episode with her, which explains the final shot of the balloon and the girl holding Dastun's arm in the theater. Dastun may have been in a childhood relationship with the girl, and that is likely the case. So therefore, the girl was shot by the man she loved, re-enacting the final scene in the film.

On the other hand, it's also possible that the girl is his sister, since Dastun once stated he doesn't remember his family.

That's how you dumb the ending down. And it's still confusing. I give up.

Aculeatus

07-23-2003, 12:47 AM

Adding to that theory about Angel...

The Phantom (who was a foreigner) was always seen holding on to the red balloons, which seemed to imply being a foreigner. At the end of episode 13, you see Angel watching the three Megadueses rising from the sea, also holding red balloons. I definately think that Angel is a foreigner.

Anyway, I haven't seen this episode in a long time, and I really found the last scene in the episode interesting, since...

EPISODE 14 SPOILERS

You see the exact same scene through Roger's eyes when he has the hallucinations of Paradigm City before the Event

KingDead

07-23-2003, 01:04 AM

About "Winter Night Phantom"...

I think the girl in the episode is the daughter of the actress. Early in Dastun's life, he watched the film that keep re-occuring in the episode with her, which explains the final shot of the balloon and the girl holding Dastun's arm in the theater. Dastun may have been in a childhood relationship with the girl, and that is likely the case. So therefore, the girl was shot by the man she loved, re-enacting the final scene in the film.

Yeah, that's what I thought too. It's interesting that they both lived to fill their respective roles in the movie (I'm farily sure there was a cop in that movie). And it makes it even more interesting if they saw the movie before the wave of amnesia, and the memory of the movie subconsciously influenced them.

Aurochs

07-23-2003, 01:05 AM

Not to be rude, but...

I missed the last five minutes of this episode. It cut off when the military police officer (Don't remember his name) noticed the balloon van, and it came back on during Roger's ending soliloquy, right before it ended. Can someone give me a synopsis of that period in the episode?

Chrono1995

07-23-2003, 01:15 AM

Not to be rude, but...

I'll try my best. Roger shows up in Big O and fights the robot while Dastun goes to a port and finds the van abandoned. He draws his gun and then notices the locks to one of the piers has been unlocked. He walks out onto the pier, and as he does snow begins to fall, and notices that it's the girl he's been chasing after. They exchange words (I forget what) and then Dastun notices something in the girls hand...a detonator. Roger also notices that the robot he's fighting is a walking bomb.

The girl holds up the detonator, and Dastun raises his gun. He tells her to stop, but her finger tightens on the trigger. Dastun fires and the robot shuts down, leaving Roger to throw it up high in the sky with Big O and destroy it using his Chromebuster.

From here, the scene plays out exactly as it did in the film Dastun kept remembering. The girl says they were only doing their duty and notices both she and Dastun are crying. She then says "You're so sweet" in French, and then it cuts to where you came back in.

Aurochs

07-23-2003, 01:25 AM

I'll try my best. Roger shows up in Big O and fights the robot while Dastun goes to a port and finds the van abandoned. He draws his gun and then notices the locks to one of the piers has been unlocked. He walks out onto the pier, and as he does snow begins to fall, and notices that it's the girl he's been chasing after. They exchange words (I forget what) and then Dastun notices something in the girls hand...a detonator. Roger also notices that the robot he's fighting is a walking bomb.

The girl holds up the detonator, and Dastun raises his gun. He tells her to stop, but her finger tightens on the trigger. Dastun fires and the robot shuts down, leaving Roger to throw it up high in the sky with Big O and destroy it using his Chromebuster.

From here, the scene plays out exactly as it did in the film Dastun kept remembering. The girl says they were only doing their duty and notices both she and Dastun are crying. She then says "You're so sweet" in French, and then it cuts to where you came back in.

Cool, thanks.

redneckgoliath

07-23-2003, 02:25 AM

what were those subtitles at the end, I couldn't quite make them out

sl4

07-23-2003, 02:28 AM

what were those subtitles at the end, I couldn't quite make them out

It said "You're so sweet."

redneckgoliath

07-23-2003, 02:47 AM

It said "You're so sweet."
Thank you. You're so sweet.
Hey Hey, you see you see, I made a joke, a jok...oh forget it.

SSJPabs

07-23-2003, 03:33 AM

Sampo

07-23-2003, 04:13 AM

Note the subtitles for the movie itself (not the japanese that are placed over the screen) are in English. Further evidence on just where Paradigm city is located? Somewhere English is the dominant language?

I haven't seen the Japanese version of Big O, so I am not sure if they were originally placed there. But normally for a dub, if there are Japanese characters on the screen they stick the English translation right above em.

Of course during the scenes of Dastun's office you can easily see that the Japanese characters on his name plate located on his desk are superimposed with English. Sooo I can be wrong :)

Mynd Hed

07-23-2003, 04:22 AM

One thing though; doesn't Dastun's comment about that guy in episode 4 being "German" COMPLETELY contradict this episode? Since I don't have the first DVD, was this a dub flub, or did the Japanese version make this mistake too?

It's not necessarily a mistake. Obviously general information about the way the world was pre-Cataclysm is a little spotty. Clearly they realize that at one time there were different cultures and languages, and both of Schwarzwald's names (his "real" name is Michael Seebach) are Germanic in origin. It's more than possible that he is over forty, and thus was named before the Cataclysm (as to how he'd know his name, what with the amnesia and all, there's no reason why he wouldn't have his wallet and ID on him during the Cataclysm). I don't find it too farfetched to think that they might have more detailed knowledge of German language and culture than French, and thus might connect Seebach's name with a language once spoken in a country called Germany, but not recognize the words Balloon Girl speaks are from a language once spoken in a country called France, or even know that France or the French language exist at all.
But to answer your question, the reference to Seebach being German was in the subtitle as well as the dub, although it was worded slightly differently.

That said, it's high time for my...

Episode X: Winter Night Phantom Review

Another personal favorite of mine. Dan Dastun, a perfectly functional and likable but more or less one-sided character up until this point, gets some very welcome development and screen time.
Just about everything in this episode is perfect. It was wonderful to see Roger and Dastun interact in a less... guarded situation, where neither one of them had any particular ax to grind quite yet, just two friends talking over a bottle of wine in front of a fire. Some great character interaction there, and a nice bookend to their scene in the first episode, which got very tense at points.
We get another nice look at the politics of Paradigm City, and the iron fist of the man in the big chair. Alex Rosewater is becoming a scarier and scarier dude, isn't he?
Perhaps best of all, we get our first hint of what the world outside Paradigm City has become-- and it's not a particularly happy hint, is it?
Angel's little cameo was nice, although certainly open to interpretation. I know I'm usually the one to spin a long convoluted theory about everything, but I'm going to take a pass on this one-- I don't think the scraps of info they've given us about Angel are really enough to go on yet. I'm just going to wait on the second season to see what's up with her.
So how about that opening scene in the church, huh? As I recall, that was one of the more heavily edited sequences on the Toonami run-- check out Kyle Pope's edit list if you're interested. Great scene in any case: I really wish they'd included the hymn they were singing in the soundtrack, they only included the instrumental version of that song unfortunately. Anybody happen to know if that was Latin, French, Japanese, garbled English, or just gibberish? I'd be really interested in knowing what exactly they were singing: Big O's one of those series where any little detail might be important.
The mecha fight was kind of an afterthought, but that's okay-- the real climax of the episode comes when Dastun fires that gun. It was a wonderful scene all around, it follows the most important rule of storytelling: it shows us Dastun's character instead of just telling us about it.

Overall Grade: A-

Tomorrow's Episode: We're winding down to the end, aren't we? Tomorrow we have what I consider to have been THE most horrendously censored episode in the Toonami run. The plot is a little silly, but we get a very fun "villain," a couple very nice incidental characters, two EXCELLENT religious references, and some more great Roger / Dorothy interaction... bet you Dorothy fans need it after Big O's only Dorothy-free episode. After that, we'll have only two more episodes in The Big O's original thirteen-episode run... hope you kids are enjoying yourselves, because the last two will end the first season with a bang. I promise. (-:

Sampo

07-23-2003, 04:46 AM

First of I want to say, Hey Redboot nice avatar :)

Hmm k, impressions about this episode of Big O.

In my opinon, this is one of the episodes that did NOT need Big O to pop in to save the day. I love the big megadeus. But it appeares that once Dastun shot that lady with the detonator, the big robot deactivated and shut down. Of course those poor peeps in the ferris wheel would be dead... But this is Dan Dastun's time to shine, we do not need Big O' rusty butt blocking it :D

Hmm how to interpret the ending... <Sampo's brain explodes> Err ok after reading the great posts on this forum, I am glad to say that I NEVER considered that lady could be Dan's sister. I always thought that she was a lost lover. With the sibling explaination, that would give the ending much more meaning.

Favorite scenes:

Big O making that pose while firing his eye lasers at that giant bomb bot.

Dan and the lady in pink face off. Dan with his gun and woman with her detonator. They both believe that they were doing the right thing, but one of them had to pull the trigger before the other did...

SSJPabs

07-23-2003, 05:32 AM

Sampo, yes that's true and I'm quite familiar with that. Since I wasn't home tonight I taped the episode.

Looking back on the tape it seems that the subtitles are part of the movie that Dastun is watching (he's watching a foreign film with an English sub) and the Japanese text is superimposed on the screen like a subtitle put there so the Japanese viewer would understand what the mysterious phrase means. The color and brightness of the Japanese text itself is different than the English words as well, so I think Dastun is only seeing the English words.

Just how old ARE Roger and Dastun? Roger is under 40, but is Dastun older? He seems about the same age as Roger and I'm sure we've all known those 20 year old guys who are clearly going bald already...

CaptainRed

07-23-2003, 07:21 AM

Hmm... this one wasn't as striking to me as others have been. Kind of on the "Bring Back My Ghost" plain— I like it, but it doesn't knock me from my seat.

I'll go into it more later, I think... and make a longer post.

Did some research on names in the show, and found out some things I should have been able to realize just by lookiing.(or from memory, for that matter):

Michael(Seebach aka Schwartzwald) = Who is like God
Dorothy = Gift of God
Amadeus = Love of God
Dan = He judged(Daniel is "God is my judge")
Pero = Serbian or Croatian pet form of Peter(which in turn means "stone")
Roger = Great spear
Norman = North man(Viking)

First five Ican see some sense in... but the last two stump me. Thought it was interesting anyway.

*honk*
Cappy "responding later" Red

Ferquin

07-23-2003, 07:29 AM

I haven't seen the Japanese version of Big O, so I am not sure if they were originally placed there. But normally for a dub, if there are Japanese characters on the screen they stick the English translation right above em.

Of course during the scenes of Dastun's office you can easily see that the Japanese characters on his name plate located on his desk are superimposed with English. Sooo I can be wrong :)

I watched the DVDs and it's not superimposed. They just used a really crappy font when they drew the desk.

If I remember correctly, the English subtitle is there for us (i.e. it's superimposed by Bandai). When Japanese watch a foreign film, they subtitle it in Japanese, just as we subtitle anime in English.

PearlRose86

07-23-2003, 08:38 AM

No, Dorothy :(, but lots of Datsun :), and one really, really amazing episode.

I really liked this episode, it was different from the usual style, and it worked. In a hurry, so I won't repeat all my thoughts, (which have pretty much been covered already -- the sister thing... etc.) but an excellent ep. Geez, I love this series. I can't *believe* I refused to watch it when it was on Toonami, long ago.

And a final note,

TAICHI!!!!

...

Taichi's dead... :( :( :( :( Poor Taichi...

And he's got a kid, too... ^^ I was wondering if I was the only one to notice that or not. :anime:

-Maggie

Delthayre

07-23-2003, 09:47 AM

"Winter Night Phantom" was another strong episode. It wasn't quite as emotionally effecting as some previous episodes, save for the ending sequence, but it offers up quite a few clues about the underlying mystery of the event and makes us start to wonder about the motivations and plans of Paradigm Industries. And I must say, I loved the way they tied the scene from the film into the episode. Notably, the film is from France, birthplace of film Noir. This is another very strong episode.

Note 1: Many people speculate that Paradigm City was originally New York City, and I'm apt to agree.

Note 2: Although generally ignorant of foreigner, at least some people in Paradigm city are aware of Germans and some (Roger at least) have at least a cursory knowledge of German. This is suggested not only by Schwarzwald, but by the note on Mr. Giseng's dossier in "A Legacy of Amadeus" indicating that he is of German origin (yay for the pause button).

Note 3: On Mr. Giseng's dossier, all height and weight information are in the customary system of the United States rather than the metric system used by the rest of the world.

Proteus3

07-23-2003, 11:26 AM

Note 1: Many people speculate that Paradigm City was originally New York City, and I'm apt to agree.

I think Paradigm City is a combination of many large cities, sort of like the city in the Cowboy Bebop movie. In the first episode, you see Roger walking down a street, and you see a huge, fallen watchtower that is reminiscent of Big Ben in London. New York City is another influence for the show, but I wouldn't say it is just based on NYC alone.

SSJPabs

07-23-2003, 11:56 AM

Never the less it IS our world in the future and so the city has to be located SOMEWHERE. The thing that does irk me a little bit about Big-O and other anime do it FAR more, is a German connection (not that its done badly it's just done so often!)

Mynd Hed

07-23-2003, 12:12 PM

I think Paradigm City is a combination of many large cities, sort of like the city in the Cowboy Bebop movie. In the first episode, you see Roger walking down a street, and you see a huge, fallen watchtower that is reminiscent of Big Ben in London. New York City is another influence for the show, but I wouldn't say it is just based on NYC alone.

Mutiple episodes have characters making references in the dialogue to landmarks (the Hudson River in Bring Back My Ghost and the JFK International Airport in Act XIII: R.D.) that can only be found in New York City, not London or any other city. Paradigm City isn't a fictional futuristic city that's based on many present-day cities but analogous to none. It's the fictional futuristic version of New York City. The city in the Cowboy Bebop movie is on Mars: it's obviously fictional. Paradigm City, on the other hand, is on Earth, so there's no reason why it can't be a city we already know about in the far future, and there are some compelling reasons why it MUST be.

Pero = Serbian or Croatian pet form of Peter(which in turn means "stone")

Actually I think that it's supposed be spelled "Perro," in which case it would be a joke name: naming a cat with the Spanish word for "dog." Of course, none of the characters pronounce it with the rolling "r" the way you're supposed to with the Spanish "rr," but I don't know that the original Japanese VAs would know to do that, and so the English VAs probably didn't get the joke and therefore didn't bother to correct it. In the subtitles, the name is spelled "Pero" with a single R, but I don't know how much that means-- go to a DBZ web site sometime and check out all the different English spelling variation on Vegeta's name, for example.
I don't know why I'm so gung-ho for this theory, I guess I just think naming a cat "Dog" is a cute idea. (-:

PowerZord

07-23-2003, 01:13 PM

I liked this week episodes. More mystery and action to the show

Tapout

07-23-2003, 01:20 PM

Well, as it seems all I can do is whine about things in this show, I've got another one. Why is it that they have no memory of French, or that France ever existed, yet everyone still knows English?

The one thing I did like about this episode: The JFK homage with the kid saluting at his father's funeral. That was a nice touch.

RedBoot

07-23-2003, 01:47 PM

The one thing I did like about this episode: The JFK homage with the kid saluting at his father's funeral. That was a nice touch.

Yeah, that was a nice scene. It was also cut out of the Toonami version, which is one of the stranger of the cuts...not as strange as some of the cuts that Toonami made to tonight's episode, not to mention one of the cuts made to episode 12 that actually contained what I felt to be a very important plot point...

First of I want to say, Hey Redboot nice avatar

Yup...this AS run has gotten me obsessed with Big O all over again...:p

Bladesong26

07-23-2003, 01:50 PM

Mynd Hed, I would assume that the hymn was in Latin, since that's the usual language of the church, but strangely I couldn't pick out any of the words, so maybe not.

Well, um. *scratches head* I feel almost blasphemous for saying this, but this episode didn't do much for me. I felt that the sudden emphasis on Dastun was off-putting; he hasn't had much screen time before this and what little there has been hasn't really made me care about the character much at all. In the previous ten episodes, the writers have failed to give me any reason to have an emotional attachment to the character and so this episode almost seemed like a desperate attempt to give Dastun some development before things really start kicking. It was just...odd.
And I unfortunately saw the end coming as soon as Dastun and the girl hit the dock and it started to snow. I felt a little cheated because I knew what was going to happen. It was kind of a let-down, since the show usually doesn't do that.
Judging by the rest of your threads, the ending just totally flew over my head. The most I got out of it was that Sibyl's daughter had known Dastun as a child and that she was carrying out her mother's revenge for reasons that weren't (annoyingly) ever given. That's all I got.
I mean, there were still some beautiful moments. Music was especially nice in this episode and well as the symbolic visuals. I guess there were just too many holes to keep the continuity going in my mind.

SSJPabs

07-23-2003, 03:01 PM

Ferquin

07-23-2003, 03:24 PM

Duke

07-23-2003, 03:25 PM

Everyone knows English because Paradigm City is PROBABLY New York City.

Then how is it everyone knows Japanese in the original version? :p

sl4

07-23-2003, 03:28 PM

How is it that they lost all their memory, but they could still speak English, or Japanese, or ANY language, for that matter?

ClockStomper

07-23-2003, 03:32 PM

You have to remember that some paper documents and video cassetes and the like survived the event (flood?) so, of all cultures, wouldn't the Germans be the most well known (remember the whole Nazi thing? there's probably more WWII history documents/media out there than anything else in america, so of all the other cultures out there, wouldn't germany be the most likley?)

I loved Winter Night Phantom, very Bebop esque. The robot fight was unessessary, and if Big O had lazer vision the whole time, Roger could have used the same trick every time before and could have ended the fight in 2 seconds.

Well, um. *scratches head* I feel almost blasphemous for saying this, but this episode didn't do much for me. I felt that the sudden emphasis on Dastun was off-putting; he hasn't had much screen time before this and what little there has been hasn't really made me care about the character much at all. In the previous ten episodes, the writers have failed to give me any reason to have an emotional attachment to the character and so this episode almost seemed like a desperate attempt to give Dastun some development before things really start kicking. It was just...odd.

So I supose every non-Batman episode of B:TAS is the same way? So it's wrong to take an episode to focus on Gordon, Robin, Bullock or any of the rogues gallery? So "Robin's Reckoning" is a "desperate attempt"? Sorry, I can't get on that logic train, it looks like it's headed for a firey crash.

How is it that they lost all their memory, but they could still speak English, or Japanese, or ANY language, for that matter?

If they lost ALL memory, they would have immeadietly suffocated to death, not knowing how to breathe.

So, considering that people knew how to walk and brethe, it's safe to say it wasn't a coma-inducing memory loss, rather a selective memory loss.

My pet theory is that humans angered god, so tey were wiped out, save for one scity. Their memories of human history and technology were erased to give them a blank slate to restart from.

As for the English/Japanese conundrum, that comes with the falicy that dubs are "versions" and not simply translations. When you watch the dub for .Hack or Digimon, it's clear the kids are japanese with all the refrences to japanese suburbs and landmarks. You can't assume they're americans. So, you have to assume that what we, the audience, hear is simply a translation and not the actual language being spoken by the characters.

The reverse is true when watching Big O in japanese. You have to assume what you're hearing is a translation and the characters are speaking english.

Chrono1995

07-23-2003, 03:36 PM

Judging by the rest of your threads, the ending just totally flew over my head. The most I got out of it was that Sibyl's daughter had known Dastun as a child and that she was carrying out her mother's revenge for reasons that weren't (annoyingly) ever given. That's all I got.
I mean, there were still some beautiful moments. Music was especially nice in this episode and well as the symbolic visuals. I guess there were just too many holes to keep the continuity going in my mind.

You're supposed to interpret the rest. One of the reasons I love this show is because it doesn't hand the plot to you on a silver platter.

However, I do agree with you about Sibyl's daughter.

G1Ravage

07-23-2003, 03:40 PM

Then how is it everyone knows Japanese in the original version? :p

That's just so the Japanese viewers can understand what's going on.

Like in the Gundam series, everything you see from computer readouts to signs on walls....they're all in English. I don't recall ever seeing Japanese prominent in any episode of a Gundam series, unless it's a subtitle appearing on the screen to help viewers understand something, like all the Japanese letters naming the Gundams and their pilots in G Gundam.

So in Big O, everything in the city is in English, but the characters speak Japanese just so the Japanese viewers at home can enjoy the story.

And I believe that sign on Dastun's desk was always in English. Bandai's not in the business of "superimposing" like FUNi is.

SSJPabs

07-23-2003, 04:53 PM

Why does everyone speak English? English is becoming the closest thing to an International Language that our world has (and that's directly related to the United States' Economic dominance and Globalization but I digress...) So everyone speaking English in the future is not as far fetched as it would be otherwise, even if it is their second language. In anime this does provide for various pieces of "Engrish" like New Yark.

I think the biggest thing I ever got a kick out of was when Rai-Dei held up a little card to Vash, on it was the Japanese for "To the Death" or something and Vash said something like "Can you say that in English I don't read Japanese." When I watch it subbed, I find the irony in that quite funny.

Bladesong26

07-23-2003, 05:19 PM

So I supose every non-Batman episode of B:TAS is the same way? So it's wrong to take an episode to focus on Gordon, Robin, Bullock or any of the rogues gallery? So "Robin's Reckoning" is a "desperate attempt"? Sorry, I can't get on that logic train, it looks like it's headed for a firey crash.

I never said it was wrong or bad to focus on a secondary character. I just feel that the writers have to give the viewer an emotional investment in a character if they're going to give him or her the responsibility of carrying an entire episode. From what I had seen up to "Phantom" I had no attachment to Datsun's character. His primary function in the episodes seemed to be either Roger's reluctant informant or helpless, angry by-stander as Big O destroyed yet another few blocks of the city. Mind you, I didn't see the first half of BBMG which had a lot to do with the Military Police, so maybe that's the missing link.
Or heck, I dunno. Maybe I just don't jive on his character.
And for the record, I love B:TAS. "Robin's Reckoning" is a fav episode. :)

CaptainRed

07-23-2003, 06:32 PM

Everything I missed before...
Mutiple episodes have characters making references in the dialogue to landmarks (the Hudson River in Bring Back My Ghost and the JFK International Airport in Act XIII: R.D.) that can only be found in New York City, not London or any other city. Paradigm City isn't a fictional futuristic city that's based on many present-day cities but analogous to none. It's the fictional futuristic version of New York City. The city in the Cowboy Bebop movie is on Mars: it's obviously fictional. Paradigm City, on the other hand, is on Earth, so there's no reason why it can't be a city we already know about in the far future, and there are some compelling reasons why it MUST be.

Add to those examples St. Patrick's Cathedral from last night's episode.(Got blown up)

Actually I think that it's supposed be spelled "Perro," in which case it would be a joke name: naming a cat with the Spanish word for "dog." Of course, none of the characters pronounce it with the rolling "r" the way you're supposed to with the Spanish "rr," but I don't know that the original Japanese VAs would know to do that, and so the English VAs probably didn't get the joke and therefore didn't bother to correct it. In the subtitles, the name is spelled "Pero" with a single R, but I don't know how much that means-- go to a DBZ web site sometime and check out all the different English spelling variation on Vegeta's name, for example.
I don't know why I'm so gung-ho for this theory, I guess I just think naming a cat "Dog" is a cute idea. (-:

Could be. Would be funny. :¬) But the credits for the episode also spelled his name with only one "r"... that's what I went on. Either way it says something interesting about the minds of the writers. :¬)

Why would you program a robot to have romantic/sexual inclinations and feelings? They serve a clear and obvious purpose in organic beings, but that purpose doesn't exist in a robot. Saddling an android with those kind of feelings is immensely cruel in my mind, since they won't ever have an outlet.
Just a thought...
That episode is when the issue is first addressed, true, but the question does not receive a satisfactory answer in my mind. I don't buy "it gives androids the full range of human expression." That ignores an awful lot of scientific knowledge, Darwin's theories for one. Anyway...
Well, Dorothy was programmed to be, as nearly as possible, a copy of her "father's" dead daughter. So he might have programmed the potential for such feelings into her in order to more closely approximate the "real" Dorothy Waynewright, without really thinking ahead to the logical consequences of such an act.

I'm with Mynd Hed. Like Instro, Dorothy is a copy-droid, meant to revive, more or less, a pre-existing person. Individuals are the sum total of all their memories and experiences, and impulses and emotions. As for outlets... well, they may occasionally get outlets(a la Kikaider), but tragic elements of nature are a part of the human make up as well. Andoids cannot have children. Humans eventually die. It is the android tragedy to never know what it is to have children, and it is the Human tragedy that despite the larger base of possible experiences, they all have a transient element to them, as the human's time to do all those experiences is limited. Androids(in Big O, at least) seem to make that one trade off for the ability to have enough time to do everything else.

Geh. I need a chocolate sundae after that.

A red herring, CaptainRed? I dunno, it's possible. I guess what my insight was is this: If we think of the Big O as wielding God-like power, then it would make sense for a priest (one who has the authority to act in the name of God) or character with the trappings of that office to pilot the Big O. That's really all there was to that thought.

Sorry if I was a bit overzealous with that one. Just got a bit too into my interpretation, I guess. :¬}

I dunno about that, I do agree that an incest taboo would almost certainly be more shameful than an illegitimacy taboo, however A.) young Wise was forty years old, meaning he was conceived BEFORE the mass amnesia hit, and B.) there was the whole deal with young Wise and old Wise having different color eyes, which implies that old Wise was not young Wise's biological father.
As for the younger Wise, I always figured the woman the older Wise was with was already pregnant when they met after the event and hence the kid isn't his(like Dorothy noted). Wise is the head of a large company (with a certain parent company of coarse), so if the younger Wise was found out not to really be the elder Wise's (biological) son after all the years of everyone else thought he was the younger Wise's claim on the company could be disputed and the running of the company might end up in the hands of someone else.

If he was conceived very soon after the Event, it would be possible. Nevertheless, Anyone00's explanation has me pretty well convinced. It's the closest non-Wise parentage theory to being air tight. Especially after the Gordon/Alex Rosewater bit last night.

Well, using oil paint for that subject wasn't probably the best idea either, though I didn't do much better with latex paint (http://www.karlrolson.com/bigolatex.jpg). Thanks for the kind words though.

Welcome. :¬)

I actually really love the background of this one. Great use of perspective. Dorothy seems to either have her head band too far forward, or have too much hair behind it.

Then again, if you wanted perfection you would've just taken a scan and superimposed it. Good stuff. :¬)

Well, as it seems all I can do is whine about things in this show, I've got another one. Why is it that they have no memory of French, or that France ever existed, yet everyone still knows English?
How is it that they lost all their memory, but they could still speak English, or Japanese, or ANY language, for that matter?

Second part first- From what I understand of amnesia... err, let me start this way: From what I understand of the brain, information about language, oral and written, is stored in a different location than memory(of all kinds). Further, from what I know of amnesia, it doesn't generally impare one's ability to perform basic functions(walk, talk, eat, etc.) Now I'm not sure how second languages are stored when they're learned as adults. That still leaves the people who learned second languages as children(possibly).

Taking the idea, for argument, that Paradigm city is definatively New York City, an overwhelming majority of the population speaks English, and only English. Those that also speak other languages don't have much use for them, in general, because they need to communicate with the largest number of people possible to survive. Thus, after the destruction of the films(and likely also some of the books and such), speakers of languages other than English would have very little opportunity to stay in practice.

So I'm thinking that in addition to memory loss, the people of Paradigm also lost a lot of recorded data. There haven't been any androids older than 40 yet, and the megadeii with AI are either very out of the way, or require some form of reactivation. So far, we've had two 40 plus year old megadeii, and they both have hit both points.

So... could be some extreme form of EMP? Something related?

The one thing I did like about this episode: The JFK homage with the kid saluting at his father's funeral. That was a nice touch.

I just found that... rather eerie. When you do any studying about the assassination, that clip comes up... a LOT. Weird seeing it here.(more or less)

Interesting that they used (Metro) Goldwyn Mayer for the theatre name.

You have to remember that some paper documents and video cassetes and the like survived the event (flood?) so, of all cultures, wouldn't the Germans be the most well known (remember the whole Nazi thing? there's probably more WWII history documents/media out there than anything else in america, so of all the other cultures out there, wouldn't germany be the most likley?)

I loved Winter Night Phantom, very Bebop esque. The robot fight was unessessary, and if Big O had lazer vision the whole time, Roger could have used the same trick every time before and could have ended the fight in 2 seconds.

So I supose every non-Batman episode of B:TAS is the same way? So it's wrong to take an episode to focus on Gordon, Robin, Bullock or any of the rogues gallery? So "Robin's Reckoning" is a "desperate attempt"? Sorry, I can't get on that logic train, it looks like it's headed for a firey crash.

If anime culture is any indication, Japan would stand a better chance than Germany. Of course, most people would think it was a strange land filled with giant robots and half-demons with dog ears...

About the chrome buster— that particular attack kicks a bit too much ass to use in all situations. You've seen how much damage Big O does just walking around. Using the chrome buster in a confined area would probably clear a few city blocks.

I actually really understand where Bladesong26 is coming from with his Dastun comments. He had recieved almost no development up until WNP, and getting this much after getting that little is a bit jarring. There isn't a direct correlation with B:TAS. The other characters either got more characterization than Dastun leading up to their episodes, or didn't have episodes that heavy with it.

Meh... I'll get to Dastun and his relations later... in a (much) smaller post)
*honk*
Cappy Red

Beat

07-23-2003, 06:34 PM

That's good work. One question, who was that with young Dauston? His sister? Was she the person he killed in the present?

raykremer

07-23-2003, 06:48 PM

Further evidence on just where Paradigm city is located? Somewhere English is the dominant language?
Roger pays off Big Ear with American $20 bills.
If I remember correctly, the English subtitle is there for us (i.e. it's superimposed by Bandai). When Japanese watch a foreign film, they subtitle it in Japanese, just as we subtitle anime in English.
The English subtitle was clearly on the movie screen in the show, while the Japanese subtitle was on the TV screen for the home audience.
Then how is it everyone knows Japanese in the original version?
For the same reason that they speak Japanese in shows like Rose of Versaille, which took place in France. Notice that the signage is all in English.

ToonamiFanatic

07-23-2003, 07:12 PM

wow last nights episode was great. kinda sad Big O's run is over next monday untill new episodes start in august but the wait is not that long.the story is great. really dissapointed no dorothy last night I think shes great and the comedy relief from her sometimes is funny kinda out of the blue sort of thing.

Osiris

07-23-2003, 08:24 PM

Roger=Great Spear
Well that would be the spear of justice, eh?

Norman=North Man
Like the Norse he probably has explored outside the domes.

That's the best I could come up with. As always, the episodes are great, maybe I'll actually understand R-D this time...

Sampo

07-23-2003, 08:59 PM

I watched the DVDs and it's not superimposed. They just used a really crappy font when they drew the desk.
...

Gah ok, dang those are really crappy fonts!

Major Dan Dastun

Sampo

07-23-2003, 09:10 PM

Sampo, yes that's true and I'm quite familiar with that. Since I wasn't home tonight I taped the episode.

Looking back on the tape it seems that the subtitles are part of the movie that Dastun is watching (he's watching a foreign film with an English sub) and the Japanese text is superimposed on the screen like a subtitle put there so the Japanese viewer would understand what the mysterious phrase means. The color and brightness of the Japanese text itself is different than the English words as well, so I think Dastun is only seeing the English words.

Cool k, I wasn't able to check myself due to not recording this episode :(

Just how old ARE Roger and Dastun? Roger is under 40, but is Dastun older? He seems about the same age as Roger and I'm sure we've all known those 20 year old guys who are clearly going bald already...

Arg this question hurt's my brain just LOOKING at it. Aye the event that happened 40 years ago doesn't seem to match up with the age of some of the characters (Roger, Dastun, and the Balloon lady)

JetMaster5

07-23-2003, 09:25 PM

The robot fight was unessessary, and if Big O had lazer vision the whole time, Roger could have used the same trick every time before and could have ended the fight in 2 seconds.

No. The ChromeBuster won't be so effective everytime the Megaduce fights another robot. You'll see why in ep.14.

Bladesong26

07-23-2003, 09:45 PM

I actually really understand where Bladesong26 is coming from with his Dastun comments.
Thank you!
Both your and Mynd Hed's theories about Dorothy work for me in the Big O's continuity. Now if I could just get it to work for Kikaider. THAT episode is on tonight; I'm going to be scrutinizing it frame for frame.
Oh and by the way, I'm a girl. :D

Chrono1995

07-23-2003, 09:49 PM

Arg this question hurt's my brain just LOOKING at it. Aye the event that happened 40 years ago doesn't seem to match up with the age of some of the characters (Roger, Dastun, and the Balloon lady)

But remember - their 40 years may be completely different from our 40 years since the Event erased their memory of how time worked.

SSJPabs

07-23-2003, 10:07 PM

But remember - their 40 years may be completely different from our 40 years since the Event erased their memory of how time worked.Many many cultures had a year roughly equivalent to our own whether by moon cycles or sun cycles. No matter what happens people will notice that the seasons repeat after every 4 in addition to the lunar/solar cycles. These calendars were achieved for the most part independantly so it's not too huge a stretch IMHO that they'd have a year roughly equivalent to ours. After all, Soldano (was it him or was he the industrialist?) remembered how to build Dorothy, people could spontaneously remember things like "a year is 365 days!" It stands to reason that their calendar is similar to ours since they'd FIND calendars lying about in addition to observations.

Do we know what memories were erased? Maybe it was just identity. After all, whatever made the giant robots decide that humans were guilty and run amok over the face of the Earth could certainly be capable of causing selective amnesia.

EDIT: Thanks to Ferquin who reminded me that they do indeed know about clocks besides hour glasses. I couldn't remember.

Ferquin

07-23-2003, 10:22 PM

They might not use watches/clocks because they don't remember the technology to build them not because of forgetting about increments of time.
Uh, Norman was winding a grandfather clock in "Legacy of Amadeus". And as someone pointed out earlier, Norman knows how to time Big O to show up, within 15 seconds exactly. Oh, and lets not forget the numerous hourglasses that Roger collects and the wristwatch he wears to controll Big O. So no, some people still have a solid modern concept of time.

Mynd Hed

07-23-2003, 10:33 PM

wow last nights episode was great. kinda sad Big O's run is over next monday untill new episodes start in august.

Well, I understand they'll be rerunning the first three episodes during the break between the new-to-AS Season 1 episodes and the new-to-the-US Season 2 episodes, so hopefully your Big O withdrawal won't hit you TOO hard. (-:

Regarding Big O's laser eye attack, he actually has two different kinds: standard and Chromebuster. Winter Night Phantom is the only episode in which he actually defeats an enemy mecha with the standard laser eye attack, and the mecha in question was loaded up with explosives so it probably didn't take much. Therefore, we can assume that it's probably pretty weak, more useful as a distraction or for targetted strikes against vulnerable points. The Chromebuster, on the other hand, is only going to be useful in certain situations, since it causes a LOT of destruction and probably has the potential to level even more of Paradigm City than a giant mecha fight tends to do anyway, so it's understandable that Roger would use it sparingly. It may have other weaknesses as well-- it probably eats up a lot of juice, for one thing, which would explain why we've never seen him use it twice in one fight: it probably needs a lengthy recharge after use.

Infinity Blade

07-23-2003, 11:04 PM

if Big O had lazer vision the whole time, Roger could have used the same trick every time before and could have ended the fight in 2 seconds.

I do believe Roger HAS used beams from Big O's eyes before. If I recall correctly, the battle with Instro was one of those times.

Animation Otaku

07-24-2003, 12:30 AM

And the most ridiculuos edit ever is....restored! This has one of the better displays of the event, showing us how the public could be fooled into thinking that December the 25th was celebrated because Paradigm was founded that day. But if Paradigm was founded imediately after the event(being prepared for it ahead of time) that would mean that the event took place on Jesus's Birthday. Interesting, no?

But the best part of today's episode was when 'Stand a Chance' started to play as Norman got on the motorbike. :sweat:

And this had a good amount of character development for both Dorothy and Roger.

Arxane

07-24-2003, 12:30 AM

Minor gripe: there is no Book of Revelations in the Bible.

There's only Revelation. No 's'.

So now you know...

Duke

07-24-2003, 12:33 AM

Was it just me, or did Norman's license plate say "*M*A*S*H"?

I liked the ending, it was nice. Surprised Angel didn't appear at all though. Maybe I missed her while I was fixing dinner...

Hades

07-24-2003, 12:36 AM

Was it just me, or did Norman's license plate say "*M*A*S*H"?

it did. hadn't noticed that during the first run of Big O.

DocSane

07-24-2003, 12:38 AM

Minor gripe: there is no Book of Revelations in the Bible.

There's only Revelation. No 's'.

So now you know...

True, but Dastun doesn't know that. He heard a passing reference to "a book of revelations." He has no idea that it was the Book of Revelation in the Bible, since only one man in Paradigm has access to that particular memory.

- Neil Nadelman

Sheamon

07-24-2003, 12:41 AM

Episode 11: Daemonseed
This episode's one final break between a bunch of dramatic, climatic episodes as we get one final nice, down to earth episode like 'Bring Back My Ghost' or 'A Legacy of Amadeus'. We also however continue to get a lot of more insight into the city with the mysterious Heaven's Day which is really Christmas although no one outside of Alex Rosewater seems to know it. This is also Dorothy's last big hurrah in season 1 unfortunately, but she sure goes out with style. Two scenes I particularly like are the beginning where she's shopping for ties for Roger that have to come from the funeral section because he has no taste, and at the end of the episode when Roger looks like a fool by thinking Heaven's Day is her birthday. And you can't forget Norman. You thought he was cool with the machine gun in episode 8? Well here he is on his motorcycle! :p To finish, I'm glad to see that Cartoon Network is no longer obsessed with censoring that horrific phrase 'Merry Xmas' anymore. -_-

Grade: A-

Tomorrow: Big Duo, its showtime! :p

SirLemming

07-24-2003, 01:19 AM

"Daemonseed" and "Winter Night Phantom" -- both fantastic episodes. And both are examples of why this show doesn't belong on Toonami. Check out (the world-famous) Kyle Pope's edit lists at http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/columns/ . The religiously-themed edits (especially in "Daemonseed") truly did obscure some very interesting plot points.

Minor gripe: there is no Book of Revelations in the Bible.

There's only Revelation. No 's'.

So now you know...

I think it can be both. Like "Song of Solomon" vs. "Song of Songs".

Mr_Millions

07-24-2003, 01:43 AM

This episode was great, chock full of religious references. And butler's on motorcycles. Norman's "cycle-wear" kind of reminded me of the WWII German uniform. Eh. The Paradigm City ruling council seems to have an affinity to Ingsoc (from the novel 1984). That is, it fills the void where relegion should be. People are no longer celebrating the birth of Jesus, they're celebrating the birth of Paradigm City (and so, the Bank). Tying this with the mention of book of revelation, it could be that the Bank is filling the role of the anti-christ, in a way. That's all I can think of, since Paradigm City is little dreary for the new Jerusalem. There you have it, my over analysis of Daemonseed.

A, if only for Norman's escapades.

Aurochs

07-24-2003, 01:56 AM

Then how is it everyone knows Japanese in the original version?

You forget that the English and Japanese cultures are constantly synergizing with and emulating each other. Having little knowledge of Big O, (Adult Swim's run being the first for me) I'm not sure how far in the future it is, but I'm relatively certain that the Japanese, English, and Spanish languages would have relatively evolved together into one deviational language. It makes perfect sense that in the future, there'd be a large portion of people that speak Japanese. As it is, it just seems like the characters aren't actually speaking Japanese, but English, and the fourth wall is acting as a translator.

You have to remember that some paper documents and video cassetes and the like survived the event (flood?) so, of all cultures, wouldn't the Germans be the most well known (remember the whole Nazi thing? there's probably more WWII history documents/media out there than anything else in america, so of all the other cultures out there, wouldn't germany be the most likley?)

Doubt it. I would put an equal amount of effort into finding information on any European culture. (Well, maybe not any) But there'd be just as many documents of France lying around in the amnesiacal future.

Duke

07-24-2003, 01:59 AM

I think people are taking my question of "Why do people speak Japanese in the original version" too seriously. I thought that :p signified that it was a joke question.

ClockStomper

07-24-2003, 03:48 AM

Another good episode, Dorothy really needs to take the direct approach with Roger. The man is just not getting it.

Oh and Norman on the motor bike? Cool. Another moment (just like when he whipped out the huge gun) that had me grinning. The episode gets a solid A.

No refrences to Christmas on Toonami? They even went so far as to remove the Merry X-mas card. Ridiculous. Especially with all the Christmas specials they have on CN.

I don't get the assumption that Roger is over 40. Nothing indicates he has lost memories, he just refers to not getting back the memories of human civilization before the event. The same goes for Angel. Datsun's age is unknown, but it's not far fetched for him to be in his mid to late forties.

As for Norman, I'd love to find out more about his life prior and he could be used as an illistration of memories coming back or have a flashback to how people survived after waking up with no memories.

Sampo

07-24-2003, 04:23 AM

Looks like the Grinch who stole Christmas also stole all the religious material when Big O aired on Toonami. I am glad I got a chance to see this episode unedited.

Hmm not much to comment since other peeps have posted their opinions already :)

Favorite scenes:

When Norman pick up something, nothing gets in his way! Big O and that plant duking it out blocking his path? Bah no problem! He flies right though that battle with his motorcycle w/sidecar. The tailor shop's door is closed and there is no time to park? Bah no problem! Norman plows through the BUILDING and picks up the dress with bewildered seamstress in his sidecar. Where can I get a butler like that? :)

Roger's awkard moment as he realised that Norman lied about Dorothy's birthday.

Duke

07-24-2003, 05:07 AM

As for Norman, I'd love to find out more about his life prior and he could be used as an illistration of memories coming back or have a flashback to how people survived after waking up with no memories.

If what I've been hearing is correct, we don't find out anything of interest about Norman in Season 2 at all. Personally, I don't mind. He doesn't really need THAT much character development.

SSJPabs

07-24-2003, 05:35 AM

If what I've been hearing is correct, we don't find out anything of interest about Norman in Season 2 at all. Personally, I don't mind. He doesn't really need THAT much character development.

Besides we can always save him for later. Once of the great things about this episode is that Big O was utterly powerless against the Daemonseed. Roger pulled out all the stops but he was still LOSING when the thing halted.

This Episode gets an A!

Dogasu

07-24-2003, 06:32 AM

Tomorrow we have what I consider to have been THE most horrendously censored episode in the Toonami run. The plot is a little silly, but we get a very fun "villain," a couple very nice incidental characters, two EXCELLENT religious references, and some more great Roger / Dorothy interaction...

There's something that's been bothering me for a while...why do religious references in anime matter so much to people? I mean, people act like the Big O wouldn't be such a great series without the crosses and references to God, as if they magically give a series some sort of depth or something. I think that even without all the religious stuff, the Big O would still be a great series, yet it seems like some people would disagree. "The Big O" isn't the only series people have done this with, either. I'm just questiong the mentality that religous content makes a good episode great. Why is it THAT big a deal?

SSJPabs

07-24-2003, 06:43 AM

Delthayre

07-24-2003, 09:24 AM

"Daemonseed" certainly offers a lot with regards to the mystery of Paradigm. It's nice to see that the religious references in The Big O are pretty sensible. One certainly gets the feeling that god and some biblical-scale stuff are involved. It seems Paradigm is indeed God and State. It also seems that Rosewater knows the truth about Heaven's Day and Christianity, which just raises more questions about his motivations. The crooked cross on top of the church where the elderly go to sing in praise of something can't remember was a well-done bit of symbolism. The other plot elements, the Saxaphonist and his blind Girlfriend, and the giant Christmas tree were also nicely done. The human element, as always, remains in the fore. My only real copmlaint is that the villain of the episode seemed like something of a throwaway. He and his exact intentions weren't explored to my satisfaction. But overall, the episode doesn't dissapoint.

randomguy

07-24-2003, 09:43 AM

It doesn't neccessarily I mean look at all the nonsensical religious references in EVA or the Xeno series of games. If you read Jeremy Parish's excellent (and funny!) History of Religion in Games at Toasty Frog you might see that this trend has been picking up steam for a while.

Great article that makes a lot of good points, albeit not in the most serious of manners. Me, I don't think it's nessecarily that people mind religious edits- they just hate seeing their shows edited at all, and religious references are usually the first thing on the chopping block.

I like "Daemonseed" a lot, even though it's pretty silly in retrospect (what exactly was the villian trying to accomplish again?). It does, however, make me wonder about two things:

1) How is Paradigm still standing anyway? It reminds me of Tokyo in the Godzilla films. It's a miracle anybody chooses to live there with all those robots and monsters constantly running around.

2) Obviously, the romantic route is going to be taken with Roger and Dorothy. That's cool, and all, but I wonder about all the logistical problems involved.

CaptainRed

07-24-2003, 09:47 AM

Thank you!
Both your and Mynd Hed's theories about Dorothy work for me in the Big O's continuity. Now if I could just get it to work for Kikaider. THAT episode is on tonight; I'm going to be scrutinizing it frame for frame.
Oh and by the way, I'm a girl. :D

Whoops! :o Boy is my face red. :¬}

Sorry about that. I, uh... guess I should actually read and retain some of that custom user text, eh? :¬}

There's something that's been bothering me for a while...why do religious references in anime matter so much to people? I mean, people act like the Big O wouldn't be such a great series without the crosses and references to God, as if they magically give a series some sort of depth or something. I think that even without all the religious stuff, the Big O would still be a great series, yet it seems like some people would disagree. "The Big O" isn't the only series people have done this with, either. I'm just questiong the mentality that religous content makes a good episode great. Why is it THAT big a deal?

In this particular anime(haven't seen many others yet that make use of it) the references are important to the story. The symbolism, like in stories such as the Hunchback of Notre Dame, is a big reason for its existance. The Big O could stand on its own with out the symbolism, sure. In several episodes that either used less of it, or used it in ways I didn't recognize, the storytelling was still very good. But in film noir, a certain amount of symbolism and/or allegory(using the word as a more extreme form thereof) is quite common.(I cannot stress enough that if you like this series, you should see some of the classics from old Hollywood)

The religion in Big O isn't even my own, but I still defend its place in the story. And if it wasn't supposed to be religion, but something else being alluded to, I'd still think it strengthened the episode.

If you've liked these episodes of Big O, feel free to check out:
The Red Balloon (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0048980) - Haven't seen this in a while, but something, I'll let you guess what, in Winter Night Phantom reminded me of it.
The Maltese Falcon (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0033870) - Can't recommend this one highly enough. This, other Hammet inspired films(or the books themselves, and some Chandler as well seem to have been drawn upon for elements of the series.
The Gift of the Magi (http://www.auburn.edu/~vestmon/Gift_of_the_Magi.html) by O. Henry - Apart from the apropos first initial, I was reminded of this short story while watching Daemonseed. No giant trees, though. Sorry.

Putting off Dastun theorying again... as well as a review of Daemonseed. Will probably watch it again before I do so.

*honk*
Cappy Red

pabcool

07-24-2003, 12:14 PM

I really enjoyed both episodes, both which I am giving A's to.

Umino

07-24-2003, 12:24 PM

Yes, Dan Dastun.

Just watch tonight’s ep. (particularly the end), and watch the last ep. of season one(and take note what Angel is holding at the end of that ep.).

Oh my God...I never thought of that....VERY good point.

Bladesong26

07-24-2003, 01:05 PM

Where can I get a butler like that? :)
Indeed. :D Alfred rules, but I don't think he ever did anything as kicktastic as that motorcycle jaunt. Good thing I'm the only one home this week; I've been yelling "Heck, yeah!" at the TV loud enough to wake the dead.
Random thoughts:
-Roger participates in household chores. Can this man possibly get anymore perfect? :D Although, what were all those potatoes for? He and Norman looked like they were about to feed a small army.
-"Today is not my birthday." (Pause) "Norman!" If I didn't know any better, I would say even the old man is trying to hook Roger and Dorothy up.
-Roger still apparently has no taste. She still loves him, though. Awwww.
-Oliver playing "Jingle Bells" at the end. Now THAT's the version I want playing during the holiday season.
-Is it just me or did "Santa Claus" look an awful lot like Schwarzwald? And were the heck did that guy run off to?
-Shades of "Waltz for Venus" with that blind girl. I actually assumed that she and Oliver were siblings because of that until the episode corrected me.
-Something to add to my list of Stuff-I-Hope-They-Answer-in-Season-2:
When the salesclerk tells Dorothy that all their black ties are for funerals, it made me think of something. What exactly is up with Roger's black obssession? Black is the color of mourning, death, somberness, formality, among other things. Another red herring, perhaps?

MrBananagrabber

07-24-2003, 01:37 PM

I've been away for a few weeks, so I've only caught the episodes of Big O on this week. I'm really enjoyed the last two, (Norman on the motorcycle just driving THROUGH that building is the single best thing I've seen in my life).

It just seems to me that the robots don't really HAVE to be there. The show is incredibly interesting, and I must admit I was surprised when BOOM! a giant robot busts out of a nearby building and starts fighting with a giant toy with a bomb inside. I guess I'm just not a mecha fan. But it seems like the robots are going to/already fit into the story, which is good. I hope the episodes stay centered around the cast rather than the robots like the last few.

Either way, I'm really enjoying Big O. I'm glad there are gonna be 3 new animes running at once on AS.

Andrew

07-24-2003, 01:38 PM

And were the heck did [Schwarzwald] run off to?

Heh. Heh heh. :evil:

You know, it's really neat seeing all these people watching the show for the first time.

Better hold on to something, folks. Tonight...things start to get interesting.

Make sure to pay very close attention to episodes 12 and 13. You'll be glad you did.

Sampo

07-24-2003, 01:50 PM

....
I like "Daemonseed" a lot, even though it's pretty silly in retrospect (what exactly was the villian trying to accomplish again?). It does, however, make me wonder about two things:

1) How is Paradigm still standing anyway? It reminds me of Tokyo in the Godzilla films. It's a miracle anybody chooses to live there with all those robots and monsters constantly running around.
....

I think the villian wanted to remind all the people (or at least Rosewater via threats and those cards) the true meaning of Heaven's Day. But instead of blowing up that dome, he had a tree wreack it. Who would have imagined that a tree would do more damage than Big O did during an episode? Hehe also it was kinda neat how that tree spewed forth decoratations and tinsel when it died.

As for how the heck the city is still in one piece. I guess that's why Dastun has that look on his face whenever Big O shows up (especially the first episode). It must give him ulcers getting the man power to section off the city blocks to clean up after Big O's romps through the dome.

RedBoot

07-24-2003, 02:39 PM

Make sure to pay very close attention to episodes 12 and 13. You'll be glad you did.

Yes, especially episode 13. It's one of those "Oh my god what the hell just happened my head is going to explode" type of episodes, much like End of Eva and pretty much all of FLCL.

It must give him ulcers getting the man power to section off the city blocks to clean up after Big O's romps through the dome.

That's probably where that thing on his head came from. :p

SSJPabs

07-24-2003, 03:39 PM

Yes, especially episode 13. It's one of those "Oh my god what the hell just happened my head is going to explode" type of episodes, much like End of Eva and pretty much all of FLCL.

Not at all like End of Eva where my reaction was as you discribed, actually for me it was more of a lean back in my chair quietly smile and go: "Yeah... I liked that."

Bladesong26

07-24-2003, 05:38 PM

That's probably where that thing on his head came from. :p
*snicker* I've been trying to figure out what that is. Sometimes I swear it's just a stylized way to show the gleam off his bald pate.

JetMaster5

07-24-2003, 08:01 PM

-Is it just me or did "Santa Claus" look an awful lot like Schwarzwald? And were the heck did that guy run off to?

Heh. You'll see him again. Very soon. Oh yes. ;)

Ferquin

07-24-2003, 09:24 PM

Just to clarify, that guy dressed as Santa wasn't Schwarzwald. That guy was the mad scientist that Rosewater was notified about. Schwarzwald has bandages, remember?

Chrono1995

07-24-2003, 09:41 PM

I've always assumed the scientist jumped off the bridge right after giving Oliver the Daemonseed.

This was quite a great episode, even though it's sandwiched in between two of my three favorite episodes. Norman on the bike, however, easily tops the scene in episode 8 for the greatest thing I've ever seen in my life. If I ever had a butler, Norman's the man.

All the moments with Dorothy are priceless? Do you really think she and Roger are going to take the romance route? That'd bring up a lot of ethics questions and provide a greater insight to her character. (And yes, I too watched Kikaider last night.)

randomguy

07-24-2003, 10:25 PM

Indeed. Alfred rules, but I don't think he ever did anything as kicktastic as that motorcycle jaunt.

Well... he's flown the Batplane, and probably driven the car, though I can't think of a certain instance. I'd say that's pretty kicktastic.

Duke

07-24-2003, 10:33 PM

Well... he's flown the Batplane, and probably driven the car, though I can't think of a certain instance. I'd say that's pretty kicktastic.

He didn't just fly it, he argued with the computer in the funniest scene in any DC animated series ever.

Detra

07-24-2003, 10:38 PM

On the episode of Daemonseed, which is one of my favourites in Big O. I just really like Oliver and his girlfriend (forgot her name). One of my favourite scenes is when Oliver and the girl are talking to Roger and Dorothy, and Oliver's girlfriend, smiling, is looking for the sugar to give to Roger, so Oliver gives it to her. It just such a nice scene, it brings a smile to my face every time.

Bladesong26

07-24-2003, 10:52 PM

He didn't just fly it, he argued with the computer in the funniest scene in any DC animated series ever.
Oh, I remember that! That was pretty dang funny. :D
Hmmm...must resist urge to start a silly thread about Norman versus Alfred.
Schwarzwald's back? Yay!

Mynd Hed

07-24-2003, 10:57 PM

There's something that's been bothering me for a while...why do religious references in anime matter so much to people? I mean, people act like the Big O wouldn't be such a great series without the crosses and references to God, as if they magically give a series some sort of depth or something. I think that even without all the religious stuff, the Big O would still be a great series, yet it seems like some people would disagree. "The Big O" isn't the only series people have done this with, either. I'm just questiong the mentality that religous content makes a good episode great. Why is it THAT big a deal?

Well, as you say, Big O would still be a good show without the religion... but WITH the religion, it's a BETTER show. It's not like the religion is just window-dressing either (as some have intimated of Eva... but I REALLY don't want to get into that particular debate right now). It's essential to the plot, since it's rather strongly implied that "the Event" forty years ago was the Rapture.
But it's not the fact that it's specifically RELIGIOUS references that were cut that's the issue. It's the fact that ANY major plot points were cut. Let's say, hypothetically, that someone took your favorite animated show and decided to cut out every reference to, say, BUSINESS in the show. Every time anyone mentions buying or selling something, owning land, a corporation, or anything involving business, that line is censored. There are some episodes where there's an edit in just about every scene, and some episodes are cut completely because there's no way to make them make sense without including some reference to business. Wouldn't you be pretty pissed that they were butchering your show? Naturally, the references to business aren't what makes the show good, but in at least some episodes they're sure to be integral parts of the plot, and the plot IS what makes the show good.
It's the same way with The Big O. People don't like overly sensitive and nonsensical cuts being made to one of their favorite shows that significantly harm the plot. It's not the fact that the cuts were religious that's the problem, but the fact that such drastic cuts were made at all.

That said, here's my...

Act XI: Daemonseed Episode Review

Ah, this is a nice fun little episode before the poopie really hits the fan tonight. Creepy Santa is, well... creepy, Oliver and Laura are great incidental characters, Norman plays matchmaker (actually I think it's more that he doesn't like to see Dorothy hurt by Roger's callous treatment of her than that he actually thinks they'll wind up together), and we get another VERY concrete hint of Dorothy's feelings toward Roger: when Oliver says they make a great couple and Roger responds callously, she doesn't say, "No, he's right, we're not a couple," but, "I'm used to it." Norman gets to kick a little more ass, Alex Rosewater gets another very nice little scene, we get some fun Biblical references that shed a little more light on exactly what Paradigm knows that they're not telling everyone, etc. etc. etc. Good stuff.
I really like the theme of this episode: Roger may disapprove of the (supposed) origin of Heaven's Day, but ultimately, it's the thought that counts: it's more important to focus on the good things about the day (showing your affection to the people who are important to you) than to focus on the bad (the politics of the situation). Even though Roger has to swallow his pride a little bit on the issue, in the end, it's worth it. Very nice.
The giant Christmas tree at the end was a little cheesy, but it's all in good fun.

Overall Grade: B+

Coming up next: Awww, yeah. Mecha fans, your time has come: tomorrow we'll get THE best mecha fight in the series, in terms of animation, directing, music, everything. Mecha haters, take note: this is the most mecha-heavy episode of the series, with not one, but two mecha fights. It's GOOD stuff though. If you're still not into it, though, fear not: episode XIII is almost completely mecha-free, and it's (in my opinion) the absolute best episode of the first season. Tune in!

Mr_Millions

07-24-2003, 11:59 PM

Coming up next: Awww, yeah. Mecha fans, your time has come: tomorrow we'll get THE best mecha fight in the series, in terms of animation, directing, music, everything. Mecha haters, take note: this is the most mecha-heavy episode of the series, with not one, but two mecha fights. It's GOOD stuff though. If you're still not into it, though, fear not: episode XIII is almost completely mecha-free, and it's (in my opinion) the absolute best episode of the first season. Tune in!

Ironically, ep XIII pretty much justifies the entire use of giant robots in the series. Giant robot Armageddon. Far better than the nuclear kind.

Infinity Blade

07-25-2003, 12:05 AM

It's Pharoh Gundam! XP

...

Sorry. ^^;

I've never seen "Enemy Is Another Big!" before, so I'm really excited about seeing this...

SSJPabs

07-25-2003, 12:08 AM

Why is JFK covered in ice? I mean I know it's winter in Paradigm but it looks like they're fighting on a glacier.

Mr_Millions

07-25-2003, 12:10 AM

Why is JFK covered in ice? I mean I know it's winter in Paradigm but it looks like they're fighting on a glacier.

I didn't really notice the ice. I was kind of distracted by the tanker sitting in the middle of the runway.

What's the name of the song that plays during the showdown at JFK? It kind of sounds like a part of Motzart's Requiem.

SSJPabs

07-25-2003, 12:21 AM

It's nice how the regular music becomes "Stand a Chance" just in time for round 2.

Incidently I was listening to the DVDs today, and in Japanese they pronounce it a lot like "Mega-dues" and not "Day-oos."

Bogey B

07-25-2003, 12:24 AM

I loved daemonseed especialy the paradime(SP) replacing religion
it gets a A+ in my book

by the by try searching david lucas in imdb.com you WILL be suprised

Tienshin

07-25-2003, 12:34 AM

Excellent episode. Easily an A in my gradebook. Intense. Not sure what else to say.

Sheamon

07-25-2003, 12:35 AM

Episode 12: Enemy is Another Big!

With 2 episodes left in season 1, things really become climatic as Schwarzvald's Megadeus, Big Duo shows up on the screen. I've never particularly cared for Big O's design, calling it a train with limbs :p but Big Duo has a simply amazing design. This episode has 2 fights, which essentially comprise the majority of the episode, resulting in less of a story as usual, but thats more than made up for tomorrow night. We still get the usual mysteries. Paradigm's trying to pay Schwarzvald off yet he obviously has no intention of stying quiet; Angel somehow knows the name Schwarzvald and where he is; and of course the ending with the wreckage of Big Duo moving by itself towards Dorothy. Overall everything comes together pretty nice, resulting in what I would say is my third favorite episode in the series after Winter Night Phantom and R.D.

Grade: A

Next Time: The thrilling conclusion to season 1! The 'To Be Continued' at the end of tonight's ep is rather misleading however, Schwarzvald doesn't show up at all and its a whole new storyline. What it encompasses though is better than anything you could have asked for, topped off with a cliffhangar ending that will leave you anxiously awaiting a week from Sunday :D

RedBoot

07-25-2003, 12:35 AM

I love episode 12. Of course, I love every episode in this series...

I like it when Big Duo flies by the Paradigm Building, and we see Rosewater looking out. The force of the passing mecha breaks the glass, and Rosewater just smiles. Nice little scene.

And now, it's rampant theorizing time!

Spoilers thru ep.12, and a little of 13:

Based on Schwartzy's comment at the end of this ep, and also based on some of the occurances in ep.13, we can conclude that the Megadeus choose their own masters. At the end of this episode, Big Duo begins to move on his own. He climbs out of the pit, and right before he ceases functioning, he reaches out towards something in the distance. Dorothy, who is watching this, follows the direction and ends up in a room (a room we've seen already in this ep). All that is left in the room is a used cigarette. If you watched closely, you'll know that Angel was in that room. Based on this, I conclude that Angel is the Big Duo's true pilot. And since we see the Big Duo being repaired in the next ep (watch closely during one of Rosewater's scenes), I bet this will come up in Season 2. But, this is just my theory.

Arxane

07-25-2003, 12:37 AM

All I'll say about "Enemy is Another Big!" is that this is the episode that made me fall undeniably in love with "Stand a Chance".

Chrono1995

07-25-2003, 12:38 AM

Intense stuff here. Behind "R-D" this is my favorite episode.

I was wondering at first why this particular episode was rated TV-14, then we got the masquerade scene. While this scene was pretty intense on Toonami, the added scenes of debauchery helped make the scene, but it was the part where the masks burst into flames and people began flinging themselves from windows that sent a chill up my spine. That almost never happens while watching anime. Now I know why this episode was TV-14...

Did anyone notice that as Big Duo fell over at the end it's hand was extended out towards Paradigm headquarters? I wonder what this has to do with The Event and the relations between Paradigm and the Megadeuses...

By the way, "Stand a Chance" is officially my favorite BGM in the whole series. Almost all my favorite BGM was in this episode.

wrenchien

07-25-2003, 12:41 AM

Schwarzvald is the meanest .... out there. It would be interesting if someday his scarred face would be show at series's end..

I hope in the new episodes we find out how the world really got trashed and why everyone had to lose their memory ... and how they managed to know enough to rebuild without them..

Duke

07-25-2003, 12:43 AM

I want the Big Duo figure now to accompany my ultra-cool Big O figure, even though Dorothy refuses to stand straight.

I love this episode, it rocks. It's pretty much a Rock-'Em, Sock-'Em Robot story with a little intrigue, but it works.

Chrono1995

07-25-2003, 12:46 AM

Spoilers thru ep.12, and a little of 13:

Based on Schwartzy's comment at the end of this ep, and also based on some of the occurances in ep.13, we can conclude that the Megadeus choose their own masters. At the end of this episode, Big Duo begins to move on his own. He climbs out of the pit, and right before he ceases functioning, he reaches out towards something in the distance. Dorothy, who is watching this, follows the direction and ends up in a room (a room we've seen already in this ep). All that is left in the room is a used cigarette. If you watched closely, you'll know that Angel was in that room. Based on this, I conclude that Angel is the Big Duo's true pilot. And since we see the Big Duo being repaired in the next ep (watch closely during one of Rosewater's scenes), I bet this will come up in Season 2. But, this is just my theory.

Then that definitely answers my question as to why Big Duo was reaching out towards Paradigm Inc. right before it collapsed. You can tell it's Paradigm HQ because if you look closely at the architecture of the building, you can see the spiral tram that Roger and Angel rode in episode 4. By the way, on the way to the party, didn't you notice Roger literally called Angel a "fallen angel?"

RedBoot

07-25-2003, 12:49 AM

I want the Big Duo figure now to accompany my ultra-cool Big O figure, even though Dorothy refuses to stand straight.

Oddly enough, my Dorothy is kinda bent too...the Big O figure is kickin' rad enough, though.

Did they ever release the Big Duo figure? As far as I know, it was never released...

Duke

07-25-2003, 12:51 AM

Did they ever release the Big Duo figure? As far as I know, it was never released...

Yea, it's released. It has Roger and Angel in it. If you look hard enough in TRU, you can find it for $17. Or you may be able to find it at Suncoast for half of that in the Clearence section.

RedBoot

07-25-2003, 12:52 AM

Yea, it's released. It has Roger and Angel in it. If you look hard enough in TRU, you can find it for $17. Or you may be able to find it at Suncoast for half of that in the Clearence section.

Meh. Now starts my new quest to locate a Big Duo figure...maybe I can FINALLY find a Red Blade Liger while I'm at it.

Duke

07-25-2003, 12:54 AM

Meh. Now starts my new quest to locate a Big Duo figure...maybe I can FINALLY find a Red Blade Liger while I'm at it.

Hah! Yea, right. Trying to find a Liger other than Liger Zero, LOL. That's funny!

Besides, the Blue Liger ownz all the Zoids.

You'd have better luck finding Red Blade Liger online.

Tienshin

07-25-2003, 12:57 AM

Why did Big Duo have turbo props AND jet engines? Thats just silly. What's not silly was tonights ep, Schwarzvald's revelations reveal a whole new dark reality.

Dorothy showed up. And Dorothy...well she is da' best.

SSJPabs

07-25-2003, 01:06 AM

I hadn't caught that it was reaching out towards the place where Angel was before. Big Duo uses its jet engines primarily to get off the ground, but once it's there it uses the props to actually fly around. Why? I don't know, maybe it makes the VTOL easier?

Tienshin

07-25-2003, 01:18 AM

I hadn't caught that it was reaching out towards the place where Angel was before. Big Duo uses its jet engines primarily to get off the ground, but ones it's there it uses the props to actually fly around. Why? I don't know, maybe it makes the VTOL easier?

VTOL...nice.

Haven't seen that term used in a forum before. But perhaps that is the case.

Anyone00

07-25-2003, 01:28 AM

Why did Big Duo have turbo props AND jet engines?

Because the mech designers thought it looked cool :p
They're giant super-robots ,the realistic practicality of the concept is so far fetched to begin with don't start nit-picking :)

As for the 'Angel is the true pilot theory: I agree. Did we ever get to see Schwarzvald get the "Ye Not Guilty" message or the like in Big-Duo? With the bomber in Winter Night Phantom sounding a whole lot like Schwarzvald calling Dan a 'Paradigm Dog', her connection with Angel, it would seem to bring up the possibility that Angel is in contact and/or in cahoots with Schwarzvald; or she was just relaying message Rosewater wanted her to in order to bring Big-O and Big-Duo into conflict as part of his plans; or Rosewater knew of Angel connection to Schwarzvald and put her in a position to deliver the message; or both; or neither.

Also the Robot Armageddon thing might be so much implanted false memories placed in the heads of children used as guinea pigs (possibly Rodger and Schwarzvald), or the memories are true and labeling them false is just to lead off the right path, or they're only true in part, or....

Oh well, I can't wait to see Big-Frau (sp?) in action :)
[I've only seen about four pictures of it and know it's name and that it appears in season 2]

SSJPabs

07-25-2003, 01:37 AM

Having that single smiley in the middle of all that black looks quite odd.

"Enemy is Another Big!"

Great episode. The battles that comprise this episode are the best ones of the series yet and you get to see Big O in a desperate fight against a robot that is actually on its own level. Not a lot of character development for the mains here but Angel and Alex Rosewater get some nice bits. The only thing I found curious is how the whole masquerade ball got set up, it seemed like poof he was at the party when there was no reason for a party? The story dropped the ball a bit there but it's not a plot heavy episode anyhow. This episode gets a prize for the best use of Stand a Chance in the entire series. I particularly like the sequence when Big O is pounding Big Duo as they fall down the edge of the crater.

Grade: A-

Big O is definitely "teh s uck" ;)

Juu-kuchi

07-25-2003, 01:42 AM

Despite the fact that I was alternating between watching this and Gatekeepers 21 on TechTV, it wasn't bad.

it was good to see the cut scene where you saw people excessing and then writhing in horror as flames consume their body and start jumping out of the building.

Wounded_Dragon

07-25-2003, 02:28 AM

The heroic fanfare that plays when Big O arrives and doubles as fight bgm: Sure Promise.

The second battle bgm that usually plays during a prolonged fight: Stand A Chance.

Gah...hypnotic prop blades. Hypnotize you as you get blown up by missiles...I wonder if the exploding masks are a Schwarzvald special, or did they come with Big Duo.

The jets and props work together. There's no way blades that small could produce enough lift. And jet engines are not a good choice for producing vertical lift. Working together makes it look a little more realistic. And they're still cool.

Hmm. Beck = Comedic Joker. Schwarzvald = Psychotic Joker?

Uh-oh, Dorothy found Angel's cigarette. Whatever will she do...

Dastun showing concern for the black Megadeus. Possible ammunition for him thinking Roger's the pilot. Could also be the fact that, while an annoyance and incredibly destructive, Big O has also been a benefit to the city. Almost a Gordon/Batman-esqe relationship.

Megadeus and pilot relationship. We know they don't need pilots. They seem to inspire similar behavior in pilots (It's showtime! line). Big Duo's face bears a faint similar to the dichotomy of Schwarzvald's face. Big O is black. Roger...is obsessed with black.

SSJPabs

07-25-2003, 02:36 AM

Next Episode:

Big Trio

KingDead

07-25-2003, 03:12 AM

The only thing I found curious is how the whole masquerade ball got set up, it seemed like poof he was at the party when there was no reason for a party?

Paradigm City is apparently a very happenin' place. Who needs a reason to party when you can party?

Schwartzchild (very likely spelled wrong) probably just sent out a bunch of invitations to the upper crust of society for a 'party.' Probably part of his point that the corrupt people would get together for a frivolous, soon-to-be-debaucherous event and ignore the cruel reality.

Nobuyuki sama

07-25-2003, 03:22 AM

Schwarzvald = Psychotic Joker?
...
Big Duo's face bears a faint similar to the dichotomy of Schwarzvald's face.
Not Joker. You said it yourself.
Two-Face. ;)

Wounded_Dragon

07-25-2003, 03:35 AM

The mask gag was very Joker though.

Another thought. Alex Rosewater wears white and retains knowledge of the Bible. Could he be the Anti-Christ?

Corollary: If Alex is the Anti-Christ, and Big Duo was possibly reaching towards her, would that make Angel "Babylon, the Great, Mother of ... Idol Worship of the World."

ClockStomper

07-25-2003, 03:50 AM

Not Joker. You said it yourself.
Two-Face. ;)

And coincidently, Harvey has the same badaged look in The Dark Knight Returns, so he may have influenced the character. Oh and Harvey also wears bandages in the current Hush storyline.

Batman spoilers above, NOT Big O spoilers.

I've not been a fan of the robot fights, since they've all felt unessesary to the stories being told. But today was a different case. Big Duo ruled. The robot fight was the plot of the episode and not tacked on. That's how it should be. Solid A

Oh, Schwarzwald's obsession with fire continues. Remember when he torched his own office and was torched himself underground?

Mynd Hed

07-25-2003, 03:51 AM

And now, it's rampant theorizing time!

Spoilers thru ep.12, and a little of 13:

Based on Schwartzy's comment at the end of this ep, and also based on some of the occurances in ep.13, we can conclude that the Megadeus choose their own masters. At the end of this episode, Big Duo begins to move on his own. He climbs out of the pit, and right before he ceases functioning, he reaches out towards something in the distance. Dorothy, who is watching this, follows the direction and ends up in a room (a room we've seen already in this ep). All that is left in the room is a used cigarette. If you watched closely, you'll know that Angel was in that room. Based on this, I conclude that Angel is the Big Duo's true pilot. And since we see the Big Duo being repaired in the next ep (watch closely during one of Rosewater's scenes), I bet this will come up in Season 2. But, this is just my theory.

Ooh, nice catch, I hadn't noticed that before, and your interpretation seems to make sense to me. Good stuff.

I want the Big Duo figure now to accompany my ultra-cool Big O figure, even though Dorothy refuses to stand straight.

I had the exact same problem, but here's the way to solve it: use a cigarette lighter to VERY slightly heat up the part of her legs that bends. Then, prop her up against something so that she stands up exactly straight. Leave her there for a bit. The lighter will melt the plastic in her legs ever so slightly, and then it'll harden again and be straight. Just make sure not to melt her too much-- better to err on the side of caution rather than ruin her.

Act XII: Enemy is Another Big Episode Review

A personal favorite second only to THE personal favorite, which comes Monday night. Slightly lighter on plot than normal, but there's a lot of subtext to this one, and the mecha fight is simply AMAZING. You may notice that I've given out lots of B+s and As when grading the Big O, but no A+s. That's so that it will mean more when I say:

Overall Grade: A+

PickHut

07-25-2003, 04:09 AM

One of my favorite episodes of Big O, when I first saw the beginning of this episode on Toonami, I had a feeling it was going to be one of the better ones. Loved the fights between Big O and Big Duo. :D A+

As for the other episodes this week:

Beck Comes Back: A
Winter Night Phantom: A
Daemon Seed: A-

CaptainRed

07-25-2003, 04:20 AM

Not Joker. You said it yourself.
Two-Face. ;)

Schwartzwald = Scarecrow. Definately(by design, and by the effects he seems to inspire. First time, it was paralyzing fear, this time, an absence of social fears(the inhibitions that the revelers lacked).

Man, that was awesome. Schwartzwald = good times. And I think he might have actually given a better delivery of "It's Showtime!"

I wouldn't necessarily say this one lacked anything from the others. Less in dialogue, more in image and movement. Lots more questions opened.

Gah! A weekend wait!

*honk*
Cappy Red

Sampo

07-25-2003, 04:52 AM

Dastun's worst nightmare comes true as not just ONE, but TWO Bigs duke it out in a dome and leads to mega destruction.

Fun scenes.

Schwarzwald calls in Big Duo while leaping off a building. Big Duo dives from the sky, crashes through the dome, and plows into the ground. Next we see Schwarzwald grinning while standing on top of his Big as it hovers. Not to be out done, Roger summons his Big. The ground trembles as Big O shoots up the building and errupts free from the concrete and steel. The dust clears and Roger is standing on Big O's HAND which is extended towards the sky.
Gotta love these Bigs when they make an entrance :)

Big O pounding on Big Duo and using it as a bodyboard while sliding down the crater. Kawabunga!

As some other posters already typed up, I also believe that Big Duo true pilot is the fallen angel. Its strange though. Because when CN had edited the scene where Dorothy finds that cigarette, I thought it was trying to reach Dorothy...

The only thing I found curious is how the whole masquerade ball got set up, it seemed like poof he was at the party when there was no reason for a party?

Aye, I agree with KingDead. Those upper class peeps just needed a place to crash that had lots of food and booze.

Hmm a thought. I think Angel finds out where the party takes place from Rosewater. He might have gotten an invite from Schwarzwald to attend the bash...

[edit] swapped out surfboard with bodyboard

Nobuyuki sama

07-25-2003, 04:56 AM

Schwartzwald = Scarecrow. Definately(by design, and by the effects he seems to inspire. First time, it was paralyzing fear, this time, an absence of social fears(the inhibitions that the revelers lacked).
Interesting. Hadn't thought about it that way...but I'm not so sure the first instance you cite was related to anything _he_ did, but just a general subconscious implant(?) that everyone in Paradigm has. Maybe.

Delthayre

07-25-2003, 07:17 AM

"Enemy is Another Big!" (I love that exclamation point) certainly impressed. The entire fight was quite impressive and Schwarzvald's party was appropriately twisted. I was startled when everyone's mask suddenly burst into flame. And Schwarzwald's VA, Michael McConnohie (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=3644), did a fantastic job.

What really makes this episode is all of the questions raised about the nature of the Bigs, the motivations of Paradigm, and even more about how religion ties into everything. I certainly hope that the second season offers up enough for us to figure everything out. What really makes this a satisfying series, aside from the apt characterization, is the amount of thought that even an episode focused on a giant robot fight can provoke.

Mein Kopf schmerzt.

Patches

07-25-2003, 11:40 AM

Another thought. Alex Rosewater wears white and retains knowledge of the Bible. Could he be the Anti-Christ?

Actually, he may consider himself Christ himself. In Daemonseed, he mentioned that Heaven's Day celebrated the birth of God's son. Since his father was the one who founded Paradigm, Heaven's Day may be a celebration of either Alex's birth or taking power.

It's sort of like the modern Christmas, which is actually the pagan holiday Saturnalia. It's just that the early Christians decided to have their major holiday conveniently coincide with the pagans' major holiday in order to win more converts.

Wounded_Dragon

07-25-2003, 12:48 PM

It could be that Megadeuses look to the 'fallen' Angel for guidance. It could be all the Bigs would look to her.

Well, why would Big O and Roger not listen to her earlier? Perhaps Big O chose Roger because they're both rebellious. Another reason for her angry glare at Big O at the end of the Sea Titan episode.

Bladesong26

07-25-2003, 01:20 PM

What's the name of the song that plays during the showdown at JFK? It kind of sounds like a part of Motzart's Requiem.
I wish I knew-that piece was really nice. I actually thought it sounded more like one of his symphonies, since there wasn't any choir singing.

I like it when Big Duo flies by the Paradigm Building, and we see Rosewater looking out. The force of the passing mecha breaks the glass, and Rosewater just smiles. Nice little scene.
Yeah, there were lots of lovely visuals in this episode. I also liked when Schwarzwald's severance check burns away to reveal Roger's face looking at him.

Oh, Schwarzwald's obsession with fire continues. Remember when he torched his own office and was torched himself underground?
Schwarzwald seems to be up on his Biblical prophecies. I forget the exact quote, but remember when he tells Roger that because of Paradigm's corruption he's going to burn the city? There are passages in the Bible that imply that the end of the world will come by fire. It seemed to me that Schwarzwald is trying to jumpstart the process himself. His little party, or I think the more appropriate word would be "orgy" appeared to be symbolic of the whole "Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die" attitude that was prevalent before other Acts of God, like the Flood or the destruction of the Tower of Babel, which seems to be the more appropriate comparison for this series.

And Schwarzwald's VA, Michael McConnohie did a fantastic job.
Agreed. That "Paradigm dog!" line was perfectly delivered.

I'm starting to think more and more that the "Event" was the Paradigm Corporation's doing. I mean, if it was an Act of God, I would think that really evil people, like the Rosewater clan, would be first on God's list to wipe out.

Ooo, I hope Dorothy was going after Angel. It's about time those girls had a nice little chat.

And I think that's it. This episode blew me away. Wow, just wow.

CaptainRed

07-25-2003, 01:23 PM

Actually, he may consider himself Christ himself. In Daemonseed, he mentioned that Heaven's Day celebrated the birth of God's son. Since his father was the one who founded Paradigm, Heaven's Day may be a celebration of either Alex's birth or taking power.

It's sort of like the modern Christmas, which is actually the pagan holiday Saturnalia. It's just that the early Christians decided to have their major holiday conveniently coincide with the pagans' major holiday in order to win more converts.

I hadn't thought of that. Very cool. Really rather insanely cool, actually :¬)

Interesting. Hadn't thought about it that way...but I'm not so sure the first instance you cite was related to anything _he_ did, but just a general subconscious implant(?) that everyone in Paradigm has. Maybe.

It might have been better had I not used the word "inspire". I'm sure he probably also didn't inspire the debauchery in his second episode. The thing is, he is in the two acts where fear or the lack thereof play a large role. He first went to the place most apparently feared by the citizens of Paradigm. Now he's gone to a place devoid of a certain type of fear. Whether he himself has the ability to inspire it, or he is drawn to places thick with it and fans its flames matters little.

Ignoring all of these, and analyzing the other two comparisons thus far:

Joker — Schwartzwald is crazy(in his delivery, at least), but he doesn't do what he does for fun. I always get the feeling that Joker is out solely for a good time(which ain't a bad thing).

Two-Face — I have yet to see a second face about Schwartzwald. Two-Face at times, at least at first, had his original personality competing with his new one(mirroring the dichotomy on his face). Schwartzwald seems to have completely thrown over his former self(Michael Seebach), much as many of the other Batman villains, including Scarecrow( :anime: ), had done.

*honk*
Cappy "nope, nothing else to add and no other responses right now" Red

pabcool

07-25-2003, 04:03 PM

"The Big O"

Great. Loved the scene at the party with Schwartzvald and the masks. Brilliant. Also, the mech fight DESERVES to be remembered as a landmark anime moment. Loved the episode, although it was a little too light on plot for my tastes.

"Enemy Is Another Big!" gets a very, very strong A from me.

Wounded_Dragon

07-25-2003, 04:27 PM

I wish I knew-that piece was really nice. I actually thought it sounded more like one of his symphonies, since there wasn't any choir singing.

Actually...if the piece you're referring to is the one that played during the molten lava title card, it's on the Big O CD under The Stoning.

Beat

07-25-2003, 04:28 PM

Great ep, but it ends with Dorthy finding- a cigarette. Pointless?

Animation Otaku

07-25-2003, 04:32 PM

Great ep, but it ends with Dorthy finding- a cigarette. Pointless?

That was the cigarette Angel was smoking. She is presumably looking for her or something. Not pointless by far.

Bladesong26

07-25-2003, 05:22 PM

Actually...if the piece you're referring to is the one that played during the molten lava title card, it's on the Big O CD under The Stoning.
Nu-uh. I'm talking about the piece that was mostly strings. It was during the first part of the episode while Big O was fighting Big Duo when it was still masquerading as the Mummy.

Wounded_Dragon

07-25-2003, 06:35 PM

Nu-uh. I'm talking about the piece that was mostly strings. It was during the first part of the episode while Big O was fighting Big Duo when it was still masquerading as the Mummy.

Um... I hate to break it to you, but you only confirmed that I was right. It is The Stoning, available on The Big O cd.

ToonamiFanatic

07-25-2003, 06:55 PM

Tienshin

07-25-2003, 08:05 PM

Bladesong26

07-25-2003, 08:22 PM

Um... I hate to break it to you, but you only confirmed that I was right. It is The Stoning, available on The Big O cd.
Oh THAT title card! I thought you meant the opening theme song, which kinda has a molten lava thing going on in the background. Thanks! :D
Must resist urge to spend hard earned money on soundtrack.

Duke

07-25-2003, 09:07 PM

Enemy is another Big was great loved the mecha fight. I really love the fights and the Story. dont think I can wait to monday for the last episode and then a whole week for start of season 2 and by the way I want a figure or model kit of Big O where can I order one online reliably and same goes for the Action figures like dorothy and anyone else. my TRU doesnt sell them

If you're talking about the figures discussed earlier in the thread, then the humans aren't action figures. It was a big posable Big O (with replaceable hands) and two stationary figures of Roger & Dorothy and comes with a plastic stand for the humans to stand on.

RedBoot

07-25-2003, 11:34 PM

Hey, shouldn't this be kept as a sticky post since it's also covering Monday's ep?

Chrono1995

07-25-2003, 11:43 PM

Oh THAT title card! I thought you meant the opening theme song, which kinda has a molten lava thing going on in the background. Thanks! :D
Must resist urge to spend hard earned money on soundtrack.

Give in. It's very much worth it, even if the vocal hymn isn't on there (maybe it's on the Season 2 soundtrack?).

Re-sticky this topic. We still have one episode to go.

VinceA

07-26-2003, 09:51 AM

If you're talking about the figures discussed earlier in the thread, then the humans aren't action figures. It was a big posable Big O (with replaceable hands) and two stationary figures of Roger & Dorothy and comes with a plastic stand for the humans to stand on.
There's also a Big Duo action figure that comes with a stationary Roger & Angel.

Kinel Ozoa

07-26-2003, 02:38 PM

This is one of the best Big O episodes in my opinion. It was my faveorite in the origonal Toonami run untill I saw R.D. a day later. I acually can't wait to see R.D. again. That episode had me in awe for the first time. But I won't spoil anything. I've acually gained a new respect for Winter Night Phantom, I think it's in my top 3 now.

But as for "Enemy is Another Big!" one of the best mech fights I've ever seen! Oh, and was that mummy megadeus just Big Duo? I always thought it was just another one that had a simlaer propeller hand as Big Duo. Because I think it would have to of had been packing it on alof, expecially around the arms..but I've shifted between both thoughts acually so maybe now I'll finally know? Lol

I can't WAIT for monday seeing, not to mention a week from sunday. 2 years in waiting I'm almost ready to jump for joy. But I'm going to stop now feeling my pathetic fan boyishness getting the better of me.

But one last thing, where can I get a Big O soundtrack?

Chrono1995

07-26-2003, 04:43 PM

But one last thing, where can I get a Big O soundtrack?

You can try www.gamemusic.com or www.cdjapan.co.jp. The latter site has soundtracks and singles for both Seasons 1 & 2.

Or, if you're feeling cheap, buy the bootlegs on ebay.

Kinel Ozoa

07-26-2003, 05:56 PM

You can try www.gamemusic.com or www.cdjapan.co.jp. The latter site has soundtracks and singles for both Seasons 1 & 2.

Or, if you're feeling cheap, buy the bootlegs on ebay.

Thanks. However I am broke I can't be cheap if I want the anime to prosper correct? So legitimate I must be. :anime:

Chrono1995

07-26-2003, 07:13 PM

Thanks. However I am broke I can't be cheap if I want the anime to prosper correct? So legitimate I must be. :anime:

It's nice to see more of this. :D

The wait for "R-D" is a very painful one...it's very easy to become addicted to Big O.

VinceA

07-26-2003, 08:24 PM

It's nice to see more of this. :D

The wait for "R-D" is a very painful one...it's very easy to become addicted to Big O.
Yes, it's painful. I finally just decided to pop in disc 4 of Big O and watch it today instead of waiting until Tuesday afternoon (from TiVo) :)

RedBoot

07-26-2003, 09:12 PM

Yes, it's painful. I finally just decided to pop in disc 4 of Big O and watch it today instead of waiting until Tuesday afternoon (from TiVo) :)

I'm tempted to do that as well. Even if I did, I'd still be sitting there on Monday night waiting for it to start anyway.

Geez, I've probably watched R-D more than any other ep of Big O, and I still can't wait for it...

PearlRose86

07-26-2003, 10:28 PM

I'm tempted to do that as well. Even if I did, I'd still be sitting there on Monday night waiting for it to start anyway.

Geez, I've probably watched R-D more than any other ep of Big O, and I still can't wait for it...Well, at least you all *have* it on DVD. I've come thisclose to buying the DVD's several times since the run started. Big O is just so awesome.

But, I can't really afford to spend that much money right now, and I really, really want the boxset, so I've been using extreme self-control, and am waiting rather impatiently for word on that. ::sighs:: I want to see R.D.! It *sounds* like such a GREAT Episode!

::sighs:: Only 49 hours and 32 minutes left until it airs in my time zone... yay.

-Maggie

ToonamiFanatic

07-27-2003, 01:10 AM

Well, at least you all *have* it on DVD. I've come thisclose to buying the DVD's several times since the run started. Big O is just so awesome.

But, I can't really afford to spend that much money right now, and I really, really want the boxset, so I've been using extreme self-control, and am waiting rather impatiently for word on that. ::sighs:: I want to see R.D.! It *sounds* like such a GREAT Episode!

::sighs:: Only 49 hours and 32 minutes left until it airs in my time zone... yay.

-Maggie

how much is the boxset I am also tempted to buy it and where can i buy it online?

Nobuyuki sama

07-27-2003, 03:47 AM

how much is the boxset I am also tempted to buy it and where can i buy it online?
September 16th (http://www.rightstuf.com/1-800-338-6827/catalogmgr/ROhYYp6bIToASxaktN/browse/item/60455/4/1881/24).

Mynd Hed

07-27-2003, 04:32 AM

But one last thing, where can I get a Big O soundtrack?

Along with the web sites already mentioned, you can try www.animenation.com, that's where I got mine. Be warned, if you're going to be a good person and go legit, be prepared to spend around thirty bucks for the import. It's pricy, but if you're as big a Big O nut as I am, it's worth it. Just stay away from Anime Castle, they're known bootleggers-- I got burned by them myself before wising up (with some help from some knowledgable folks on these boards) and ordering the legit version from Anime Nation.

Kinel Ozoa

07-27-2003, 07:24 AM

Along with the web sites already mentioned, you can try www.animenation.com, that's where I got mine. Be warned, if you're going to be a good person and go legit, be prepared to spend around thirty bucks for the import. It's pricy, but if you're as big a Big O nut as I am, it's worth it. Just stay away from Anime Castle, they're known bootleggers-- I got burned by them myself before wising up (with some help from some knowledgable folks on these boards) and ordering the legit version from Anime Nation.

I bought from their once, it was a Sword Fish II Model that took about 2 months to get here. I didn't know about the probable boot legging though. I'm glad you told me.

The best price I found the CD for is jjust over 24 dollars which isn't bad considering the 29 songs on it. Dunno where I'm ganna get this money though because I think that box set is officially on my list to now. :sweat:

LEGACY

07-27-2003, 01:20 PM

RD is a scary ep! :eek:

Mynd Hed

07-27-2003, 01:39 PM

I bought from their once, it was a Sword Fish II Model that took about 2 months to get here. I didn't know about the probable boot legging though. I'm glad you told me.

The best price I found the CD for is jjust over 24 dollars which isn't bad considering the 29 songs on it. Dunno where I'm ganna get this money though because I think that box set is officially on my list to now. :sweat:

Was it a domestic model or an import? Imports will almost invariably take longer to get, especially if they have to be backordered, which wouldn't surprise me with merchandise from a popular show like Bebop. Unfortunately, with the rise in popularity Big O is sure to enjoy thanks to its AS run, the same may hold true with the soundtrack.

Anyway, all of Anime Nation's merchandise is perfectly legit. When your soundtrack comes, there's a way to tell if it's a bootleg or not: if the CD disc itself (not the jewel case cover) has a picture of Big O on it, it's a bootleg. If it's all a wierd gray pattern, it's legit. I don't know of any 100% sure way to tell before you buy other than buying from a site you trust and know to be legit, unfortunately, but it always helps to watch out for deals that seem too good to be true, because they probably are. I found that out when I was a fool and jumped at the $10 + S&H price at Anime Castle. *sigh...*

Chrono1995

07-27-2003, 04:11 PM

Gamemusic.com used to stock bootlegs way back in 1998, and there are still some in stock (although it's only the really obscure, unpopular stuff that no one has bought since 2000). All of their anime CDs are legit, as are most of the game music CDs. However, The Big O soundtrack is currently out of stock there.

RD is a scary ep! :eek:

While I wouldn't go so far as to call it "scary", I will admit the last ten minutes or so are particularly chilling. This is the most mysterious and intriguing of all the episodes, so I'm probably not the only one whose mouth was hanging open by the end of it.

"R-D" was also infuriating to watch on Toonami back in 2001, mainly because of the fact that was, at the time, the "final" episode. By the end of it, you'll be glad there's a second season on the way.

Kinel Ozoa

07-27-2003, 08:37 PM

Was it a domestic model or an import? Imports will almost invariably take longer to get, especially if they have to be backordered, which wouldn't surprise me with merchandise from a popular show like Bebop. Unfortunately, with the rise in popularity Big O is sure to enjoy thanks to its AS run, the same may hold true with the soundtrack.

Anyway, all of Anime Nation's merchandise is perfectly legit. When your soundtrack comes, there's a way to tell if it's a bootleg or not: if the CD disc itself (not the jewel case cover) has a picture of Big O on it, it's a bootleg. If it's all a wierd gray pattern, it's legit. I don't know of any 100% sure way to tell before you buy other than buying from a site you trust and know to be legit, unfortunately, but it always helps to watch out for deals that seem too good to be true, because they probably are. I found that out when I was a fool and jumped at the $10 + S&H price at Anime Castle. *sigh...*

It was an import. Which I guess I should have considered before now. However that wasn't the only problem. Anime Castles ways of taking money orders is convoluded. But if the backorder/import situasion comes up with Big O I won't mind. Hope I don't come off as greedy but I'm one of the people hoping for another 13 episodes after the new ones come out.

I appriciate the tips on how to spot a bootleg. had I not been so lazy I would have tried to find some guide on it by now but this is just as good!

I agree with LEGACY about R.D. Atleast to a point. Note: Box contains spoilers to R.D.

When the android was yelling after Roger when he was hideing from it/her I just had to put myself in his place a second and think about how creepy that woulda been to have been their and hear that.

PearlRose86

07-27-2003, 09:13 PM

Hope I don't come off as greedy but I'm one of the people hoping for another 13 episodes after the new ones come out.
I think just about everyone here is hoping CN'll take the option to order more episodes after these 13 new ones are released. I know I want them to. :)

And anyway, paying more for legit stuff instead of paying less for bootlegs is a really good way to prove we care about Big O and want more Big O stuff here. (And watching the show helps too. :anime: )

Oh yes, thanks to everyone here for the info on the soundtracks and the Big O set's release date. (Now I have something to look forward to getting in the fall! ^_^)

-Maggie

Arxane

07-27-2003, 10:43 PM

Just stay away from Anime Castle, they're known bootleggers

Just because I'm a literalist (a person who takes things literally), I'll clear something up.

Anime Castle itself is not a bootlegger. It's a site that merely sells bootleg merchandise. Interestingly, Anime Castle does sell legitimate American DVDs alongside the Hong Kong DVDs, but that doesn't excuse it in my mind. I never bought anything from Anime Castle, but I did buy several anime/game soundtracks off Ebay, thinking I was saying thanks to the great artists who made such wonderful music. Instead later I learned I was giving my money to bootleggers. It really sucks.

Anyway, a fool-proof way of spotting a bootleg CD is seeing if it's made by Ever Anime or Son May, two of the biggest bootleg CD companies. Price is also a good indicator (such as if it's incredibly cheap), but nowadays some sellers are selling bootlegs at high prices to make you think you're getting the legitimate deal.

The Jazz Messengers has a good FAQ (http://www.jazzmess.com/merch/bootlegfaq.html) on how to spot bootlegs, as well as links to other bootleg FAQs as well. If you want to learn how to buy legit anime merchandise, I suggest you read them.

And that's all I have to say about bootlegs.

And oh, yeah...can't wait for "R-D" tomorrow!

SSJPabs

07-27-2003, 11:22 PM

Except legit anime merchandise is so $ expensive $ so if it whatever you're looking for hasn't been released domestically the temptation to buy a cheap nearly comparible in quality bootleg is high.

Andrew

07-28-2003, 06:22 PM

Well...tonight's the night. This is what it all comes down to. Hope you new watchers are still holding on to something. ;)

Watch and know why many of us have suffered for two years. Two whole years of waiting...always waiting...BUT WE WAIT NO MORE!

Okay, we wait until Sunday night, BUT THEN NO MORE WAITING.

PearlRose86

07-28-2003, 07:14 PM

Okay, we wait until Sunday night, BUT THEN NO MORE WAITING.

But won't we wait until next Sunday night, and the Sunday night after that and so on and so forth, for twelve weeks after that? :p

-Maggie

Chrono1995

07-28-2003, 08:19 PM

But won't we wait until next Sunday night, and the Sunday night after that and so on and so forth, for twelve weeks after that? :p

-Maggie

I wouldn't mind waiting every week for a new episode of Big O. This is the good kind of torture. :D

Andrew

07-28-2003, 10:01 PM

Yeah, I was mainly referring to waiting on a conclusion for tonight's cliff-hanger ending. Waiting a week between each episode will be a piece o' cake, compared to our two-year wait for a continuation of the events in episode 13.

Rabi~en~Rose

07-29-2003, 12:30 AM

okay I'm hopelessly lost! its to bad big o s1 isn't re-airing anytime soon cause RD confused me to no end! the first half was like ????? and the 2nd half was a lil less confusing but still.. http://members.aol.com/kimminakochan/chicken.gif

RedBoot

07-29-2003, 12:32 AM

I still love this episode, no matter how many times I watch it.

Everytime I see the scene between Roger and Gordon Rosewater I think of a new way to interpret it. Yay, tomatoes....

Anyhoo, all you first-timers, just be glad you don't have to live with that cliffhanger for 2 years like we had to. :p

SirLemming

07-29-2003, 12:33 AM

Wait, this thread is up to 7/25, not 7/29? Whatever... (Fixed it. - LS)

Wow, what a great finale... or should I say, season finale. I didn't realize the show was originally left so incomplete -- not that this wasn't a great ending to what there was of the show. It was thrilling and mind-blowing, sort of like The Matrix.

And the commercial for season 2... Wow, that looks awesome.

Zara

07-29-2003, 12:34 AM

All I can say is .. WOW!

Awesome episode --- I can't wait until Sunday! Big O rocks and judging by the commercials for Big O Season 2 -- it looks to get even better!

Animation Otaku

07-29-2003, 12:34 AM

I'm still confused about this. Every time I see this episode I'm convinced that it's Dorothy and then they essentially don't explain it at all and Roger doesn't even question why he thought the android looked like her.

Umino

07-29-2003, 12:37 AM

Anyhoo, all you first-timers, just be glad you don't have to live with that cliffhanger for 2 years like we had to. :p

Those 2 years were the worst times of my LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!