SVES Talkback - .hack//SIGN - Episode 18: "Declaration" (Spoilers) [Archive]

ClockStomper

06-29-2003, 03:48 AM

Great episode, I loved the confrontation between Subaru and Silver Knight at the end. The series and slowly been building up to some confrontation regarding Silver Knight, I'm impressed how they took their time and planted seeds of discontent with SK each episode, makes the payoff much sweeter.

I do have to say that I'm disapointed that we didn't get to see Subaru in real life. I still hope we do at some point.

Sir Gatts

06-29-2003, 04:00 AM

It's good to see an episode where the plot falls under The World's internal affairs. Silver Knight really crossed the line once he requested from administration, access to CC Corp.'s active user information database. As that it seems the Crimson Knights have no direct relation to CC Corporation, exposure to the user information database most likely could never be allowed under the Knights current previous position. To give the Knights such permissions would basically grant them server-wide administration powers; an position already taken by the members of CC Corp.; and by granting them, would likely form the Crimson Knights as an part of CC Corporation. CC Corporation was also probably under contract to not disclose user personal information to third parties, thus likely leading them to turn down the Crimson Knights' request.

Subaru seen an aggression forming throughout the Crimson Knights, along with an near attempted mutiny. Believing that there would be no way to restore the old practices throughout the Crimson Knights, Subaru decided to bring the order of the Knights to an end. Yet as they are all now disbanded, it doesn't mean that we definitely won't see these characters again. As to if/how they will continue to interact throughout The World yet remains to be seen.

Overall for this episode, 10/10.

Mackenzie Rainelle

06-29-2003, 08:02 AM

Amusing: Mimiru's impression of Ginkan. That was just cute. ^^

Cool: Subaru disbanding the Knights.

TsuiTsui

06-29-2003, 10:56 AM

"Who do you think you are? Do you think you are some sort of God?"

GOODNESS, that was harsh! The dialogue between Subaru and Silver Knight was quite intense!

After Subaru mentioned recruiting help from Balmug and Orca, I hope those two characters make an appearance soon!

Amusing: Mimiru's impression of Ginkan. That was just cute. ^^

Heehee, agreed!

I am also wondering if that little flying bug, which seemed to always hang around Tsukasa, symbolized something since it appeared several times during the series.

Duke

06-29-2003, 01:17 PM

Awesomely cool episode. Subaru vs. Silver Knight just makes this episode a 4-star already, but Mimiru's impression, the mentioning of character's not appearing, and Tsukasa's chracter building (though miniscule) raise it to a 5-star.

LightAngel

06-29-2003, 01:24 PM

Great episode! Who didn't want to slap the Crimson Knight? The confrontation between him and Subaru was amazingly played out. I think I finally understand the knight's purpose in this game a little better now. I'm pleased with how Subaru decided to handle the matter.

MrBananagrabber

06-29-2003, 01:45 PM

That was one hell of an ep. Agreed, I absolutely loved Mimiru's impression of Silver Knight.

I wonder what's going to happen to The World without the Crimson Knights? I definitely agree Subaru was doing the right thing by shutting the organization down, but I'm sure word of it will have the world become a bit more chaotic with Player Killers and the like. I'd like to see what'd happen if someone from CC came into the world, like the admin from .hack//mutation.

We know that Balmung will show up for a bit at least, some of the bumpers before and after commercials have shown him.

I am also wondering if that little flying bug, which seemed to always hang around Tsukasa, symbolized something since it appeared several times during the series.

Whether it symbolize anything or not, it's a creepy looking little thing. ^_^;

Umino

06-29-2003, 02:00 PM

Very good episode! I've like these two episodes because they kinda show Suburu getting "attacked". First B.T. attack towards Suburu, and Gikan's comments about her being "some sort of God". I like longer version of beautiful at the end. Also do the characters look the same outside the game? Because I've miss a few episodes and I've only seen B.T. outside the world (She looked the same).

Jude Santos

06-29-2003, 02:25 PM

very good episode, one of my favorite episodes when i watched it first time through. what i cant wait for is next week's episode, my number one favorite episode of all .hack!

Morac

06-29-2003, 02:30 PM

This was a great episode.

From what I can tell the Crimson Knights are just a group of players whose leader, Subaru (who obviously was allowed to modify her character), is so highly respected by other players that the other players allow them to maintain order in The World. Even though he meant well, Silver Knight forgot that the Knights power comes other players and not from brute strength or special powers.

Silver Knight completely overstepped his authority by requesting complete access to the user database. As someone who used to be councelor in Ultima Online (basically a regular [non-employee] player given a special character with restricted powers to officially help others in the game), I can tell you that that information is never given out to anyone. It wasn't given to me, it wasn't given to the Game Masters (employees hired to give in game support) and it certainly would never be given to a regular player guild on matter how well known their leader was. The only one who has that knowledge is the user database administrator. I'm not surprised Subaru disbanded the Knights as they started to think of themselves as above normal players.

Still Silver Knight was just doing what he thought was best. He still respects Subaru even though he disobeyed her and then confronted her in front of her men as seen by him kneeling before her at the end of his speech. And he did have a point in his speech to Subaru. That she was completely ignoring the fact that Tsukasa is a hacked character goes against what she said the Knights stand for. And I think his point hit home. Subaru realized she had a conflict of interest and removed herself from her position (taking the Knights with her to prevent abuse).

Can't wait for the next episode.

Duke

06-29-2003, 02:33 PM

Also do the characters look the same outside the game? Because I've miss a few episodes and I've only seen B.T. outside the world (She looked the same).

I think some of the charactes picked the avatars they did because they do look similar, as is the case of Tsukasa and BT. I highly doubt Crimson Knight wears that mask in real life, and I don't think Mimiru looks the same.

Conekiller

06-29-2003, 03:53 PM

The first .hack special edition box came with stickers of the characters,one of them was was Ginkan mask-less, he doesn't look like too bad of a guy, actually his facial design was reminiscant of the Broken man's face, only more stern.

Awesome ep. among what other people have commented, I find it odd that CC Corp doesn't have in-game moderators that literally act as police, they just seem to have some dudes sitting at a computer waiting to get e-mailed complaints and issues. highly ineffective, solving the problem long after it has ocurred. I wonder if they're even aware of Tsukasa and his Guardian's antics from the earlier eps.

I guess the Mods should have more of a physical presence to maintain order, that shouldn't be the responsibility of regular players solely. Sure, Subaru and similar minded players (Ginkan and Crim at one point) like to keep things in as much order as possible, but Ginkan DEFINITELY overstepped a boundary in requesting personal log info. Even if he had no malicius intents (I'm starting to wonder......) it's still wrong.

I understand where he's comming from, he WENT INTO A COMA because of the Guardian, who is directly associated with Tsukasa, a person who is un-bound by the laws within the game. Unfortunately he refuses to see both sides of Tsukasa, the poor chold who just wnats to be left alone and can't log out of a video game. Sure sounds like a victim to me.

I doubt the Knights present weere trully remaining loyal to Subaru. The scene right after Ginkan accuses her of blasphemy, the ominous horned shadow he casts lands directly on all of the knights while "Lady" Subaru is off to the side still bathed in light. It's a beautiful scene that would make for an awesome Desktop image. beautiful, beautiful image that speaks more than any of the characters on screen could have. I'd LOVE a screen cap of that.

I'm loving Sora's self-made sound effects, I wanna run around going "whoosh" and "zwoooop" that would be cool.

A funny bit I saw in a . hack AMV regarding .hack//DUSK
a character is fishin in Mac Anu and pulls up a mask of a blue eyed Crimson Knight, and tosses it back as if it were trash, hilarious

episode A+

JTurner954

06-29-2003, 04:28 PM

I had a feeling that Silver Knight was on a different page than Subaru so I'm glad she did something about it ( I didn't like that guy anyway). The rest of the episode was just ok. The floating girl stopped floating yet this week she's floating again. I was hoping they would of explained that but alas ..... Still looking forward to next week.

Overall grade: B

Mackenzie Rainelle

06-29-2003, 04:53 PM

I think some of the charactes picked the avatars they did because they do look similar, as is the case of Tsukasa and BT. I highly doubt Crimson Knight wears that mask in real life, and I don't think Mimiru looks the same.

Actually, Mimiru looks pretty close to her game character, at least in terms of hairstyle.

Sora Takenouchi

06-29-2003, 05:00 PM

I LOVED how SilverKnight was grilled in last night's episode. XD The talk between Him and Subaru-sama went over my head a little because I had guests over and they wouldn't keep their mouths shut. -_- So I had many distractions throughout the ep. I got the gist of what was going on, though. And I could always find an online summary to clear things up for me.

And I also found Mimiru's impression of SilverKnight cute as well as Tsukasa scene with the bug at the end. ("I guess Subaru isn't showing up today.") ^^*

oranthal

06-29-2003, 06:09 PM

I LOVED how SilverKnight was grilled in last night's episode. XD The talk between Him and Subaru-sama went over my head a little because I had guests over and they wouldn't keep their mouths shut. -_-

They were talking while .hack was on? You should have thrown them all out. ^_^

Silver Knight sounds like Tsukasa did something wrong. Did I miss something? Tsukasa is an anomoly in The World, so I don't understand why SK says that Surbaru turns the other cheek when things involve Tsukasa. Is SK just jealous of Tsukasa because he has the affection of Subaru?

Why were the Knights so up-in-arms about a player-killer? It is an online RPG afterall. I would think it is the norm where the players actually die.

hardway35

06-29-2003, 06:18 PM

Silver Knight sounds like Tsukasa did something wrong. Did I miss something?
i think he is refering to when Tsukasa's guardian that data drained him and those girls. Or maybe he think Tsukasa uses a bot.

Romanesque

06-29-2003, 07:45 PM

My only complaint is that they severely messed up the lip synch whenever there was a group of Crimson Knights speaking in turn. Two voices coming from one mouth, in places. :p

very good episode, one of my favorite episodes when i watched it first time through. what i cant wait for is next week's episode, my number one favorite episode of all .hack!

Meanwhile I can barely remember what happens. I have an idea which episode it might be, but it's been so long since I've had fansubs to review that I'm no longer sure. Care to PM me? =x

From what I can tell the Crimson Knights are just a group of players whose leader, Subaru (who obviously was allowed to modify her character), is so highly respected by other players that the other players allow them to maintain order in The World.

You've pretty much got the right idea about things, though I should note that Subaru's character isn't a special granted modification of any sort. It's just her character model of choice, with the normal customizations, like everyone else.

Silver Knight sounds like Tsukasa did something wrong. Did I miss something? Tsukasa is an anomoly in The World, so I don't understand why SK says that Surbaru turns the other cheek when things involve Tsukasa. Is SK just jealous of Tsukasa because he has the affection of Subaru?

Tsukasa's an anomaly, that's the problem. He does things which the system isn't supposed to allow. That's generally the sign of someone who's illegally hacking the game. Even though that's not the case, it's still something which Ginkan's not comfortable with. The jealousy angle probably isn't helping, either...

Why were the Knights so up-in-arms about a player-killer? It is an online RPG afterall. I would think it is the norm where the players actually die.

The system allows it, but it's generally frowned upon for understandable reasons. It's still a hotly debated topic in MMORPG design, and I don't think it's something that will ever be universally agreed upon, even by the time .hack takes place.

--Romey

lostrune

06-29-2003, 08:59 PM

I noticed the mis-timed lip-flaps to - or were they misplaced?
I couldn't figure out who's talking to who.

Anyway, to be honest, I foresaw the break-up, even sorta the disbandment of the Knights, at least a couple eps back. I've been with groups where sometimes, no matter what you did to work it out, the differences were just too fundamental that the only choice left was to disband. Once the focus is lost, it's just time to move on.

And the game will just move on too. The game was there before the Knights and will still be there afterwards. Just like any MMORPG, landscapes and alliances change (even the World itself had at lease one major upgrade). And so does the order of power as new ones develop. That's because behind those avatars are only just people too, and people change and change their minds.

Mackenzie Rainelle

06-29-2003, 10:35 PM

The system allows it, but it's generally frowned upon for understandable reasons. It's still a hotly debated topic in MMORPG design, and I don't think it's something that will ever be universally agreed upon, even by the time .hack takes place.

Wait....Isn't Sora a PlayerKiller? Why isn't Ginkan all gung-ho about going after him?

hardway35

06-29-2003, 11:07 PM

Wait....Isn't Sora a PlayerKiller? Why isn't Ginkan all gung-ho about going after him?
I remeber a ep where Ginkan wanted to go after him. Also didn't sora kinda kick his arse in that one ep were the knights captured Tsukasa.

GWOtaku

06-29-2003, 11:16 PM

Aaah, this is one of my favorite episodes. Subaru shines, Ginkan gets put in his place, and we get an entire segment full of above average music, even by .hack standards.

Okay....first off, lets get something straight....I missed how the dub is saying it but its Balamunk or Baramunk (prouncination: Bar-A-munk. Or something like that, based on how its said in Japanese....I do know that its sure as hell NOT "Barmuk." (Bar-muk? Err....no...). And the other guy is Orca, not whatever else people are spelling his name as. :D And yeh, one of them gets a cameo, but we're a bit away from that still....

Next week's episode will be excellent and quite revealing for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that we finally get into the SUBARU/KRIM BACKSTORY! YEAH! By now, its pretty clear that Subaru and Krim had a certain idea in mind when they started the Knights together....since that time the Knights grew far too powerful and arrogant. In fact, in a way I'd say there's a kind of symmetry between Krim and Ginkan. As I see it Krim represents the spirit of the Knights in the beginning, whereas Ginkan represents the corrupted version of that the Knights have become--despite the fact that Ginkan truly believes he is in the right. Though it takes her some time to realize and accept it, I think Subaru finally understood that the Knights were going in the direction Ginkan wanted it to go, and that path was one radically different from her intent and something she wanted no part with.

Whereas up until now we've seen the Knights only as an overbearing group that the viewer generally loathes, Ep 19 will give us a little window into what Subaru and Krim wanted the group to be. I think you'll find that for at least a little while, it was a noble group indeed.

More importantly, of course, Subaru is the star next week. Its her turn for characterization. :)

Oh yeah, did I mention that we'll seeing another look into the real-world?

*cryptic grin*

GWOtaku

06-29-2003, 11:23 PM

Wait....Isn't Sora a PlayerKiller? Why isn't Ginkan all gung-ho about going after him?

Considering the issues regarding Tsukasa and whatnot, Sora's probably low on Silver Knight's priority list. Besides, as was pointed out, Ginkan got killed (along with TWO other Crimson Knights) in Episode 6, when Tsukasa was busted from confinement.

Sora was/is also a source of information, which is why the Knights tolerated his presence.

Edit: Being the Krim fanboy that I am, I must point out that Kirm, and ONLY Krim, is the only character in the series so far who has fought Sora on even terms. Everyone else dies horrible deaths. Just goes to show that Krim is THE MAN. :D

Jude Santos

06-29-2003, 11:29 PM

Romanesque

06-30-2003, 12:37 AM

Regarding name romanizations & pronunciations, it's definitely "Balmung" and not any other variation. Balmung is the name of a sword from Norse mythology, and the OVA's confirm that this was the origin of the name.

Orca's still Orca... I don't remember seeing anyone misspell it.

Crim should have been romanized as Krim or Kurim, dangit. I have no real justification for why, other than that it looks better...

Certainly, Silver Knight should have remained as Ginkan. Changing it only makes things more confusing for newcomers watching the sub. Imagine if Inuyasha was called "Dog Demon" in that show's english dub... ugh. Name translations suck. We don't call Ginkgo trees "Silver Apricot" trees, so we shouldn't have to call Ginkan "Silver Knight"...

Wait....Isn't Sora a PlayerKiller? Why isn't Ginkan all gung-ho about going after him?

In addition to the other comments that have been made, it might be because Sora's player-killing has mostly been limited to irritating BT, who probably isn't reporting the incidents since she's using him for information.

Ep 19 will give us a little window into what Subaru and Krim wanted the group to be. I think you'll find that for at least a little while, it was a noble group indeed.

Ahh, so that's which episode it was... :sweat:

--Romey

Morac

06-30-2003, 09:30 AM

You've pretty much got the right idea about things, though I should note that Subaru's character isn't a special granted modification of any sort. It's just her character model of choice, with the normal customizations, like everyone else.Oh. I thought she got her wings the same way Balmung did by winning an event.Actually from playing the game and talking to some of the "players" in the game it sounded like wings weren't a choice (one of them whined he wanted wings like Balmung). Maybe Subaru's wings are small enough that they are allowed as a normal customization.

I guess the Mods should have more of a physical presence to maintain order, that shouldn't be the responsibility of regular players solely.While The World doesn't seem to have Mods, Minor .Hack Game spoiler: (Highlight to read)
the system administrator does makes an in game appearance in .hack//mutation so they are aware of things.

The system allows it, but it's generally frowned upon for understandable reasons. It's still a hotly debated topic in MMORPG design, and I don't think it's something that will ever be universally agreed upon, even by the time .hack takes place.The 2 players that complained to Subaru said that they met a PK who they said had to be a hacked character. I don't know if this is the same PK that the Knights went after, but that could explain why they wanted to question him. Most likely though he wasn't a hacked character and those 2 players just sucked :)

I think Ginkan will become more dangerous now that the Knights are disbanded. Sure he was becoming unruly but Subaru was able to constrain him for the most part. Now that he is free to do as he wishes it will be interesting to see what he does.

raykremer

06-30-2003, 12:19 PM

Should be interesting to see if Silver Knight goes rouge and tries to keep enforcing his view of law and order even without the Crimson Knights officially existing.

It'll also be nice to see Subaru going around and doing stuff. She's spent most of her time on that boat with Silver Knight so far.

Kosh

06-30-2003, 01:12 PM

Haven't been here in awhile and missed a few of the talkbacks (the summary ep up till now), but this episode was so good I thought I'd drop by. :D

I knew this was coming on some level... all the "Wait and see. :D" replies to "Why aren't the Crimson Knights in the video games?" led me to conclude they'd either disband or be wiped out, but Ginkan's discontent led me to believe it would be the former. Having seen it, I'd have to say, "Wow." This honestly is one of my favorite .hack moments-- I had to rewind it immediately to see it again. I think Subaru should have done it ages ago and there's no doubt it was the right action to me. Ginkan definitely needed to be put in his place-- he reminded me of a few people in groups I've led where I've had to do largely the same thing for the same reasons-- and the scene was just incredible. I remember thinking, "So that's why he has horns" when he cast his shadow, and I was honestly shocked at how scornful he was to Subaru (jealousy leads to contempt so easily, not only for the rival but for the one whose affections you desire, as well). I expected Crim to show up, either to stop Ginkan from disobeying Subaru in Carmina Gadelica or to back Subaru up for the confrontation. When the e-mail from the admin came up, I thought Ginkan's mutiny was successful and was holding my breath for the barest of seconds. I can't say it enough, that scene rocked. :D

To whoever mentioned the bug, I thought it was a nice touch and was indicative of Tsukasa's growth as a character. In the first episode, at the height of his apathy, Tsukasa saw it as a pest and didn't hesitate to squash it with his staff. Seventeen episodes later, after being "healed", somewhat, through his interaction and friendship with Bear, Mimiru, and Subaru, when Tsukasa sees the bug, he moves his staff as if to squash it again, but instead lets it crawl on and play on it (I could almost swear the bug smiled). Symbolic of the transition from death to life. Or so I read into it.

Anyway, like I said, great episode. Can't wait for the remaining eight. (is it safe to assume the series kicks into high gear, if not with this episode, then soon?)

Umino

06-30-2003, 01:21 PM

Will Cartoon Network
Air episode 27?

Conekiller

06-30-2003, 01:45 PM

I forget, is Carmina Gadalica the server with the city in he clouds with the mountains and stuff (where Mimiru waited and waited and waited for Tsukasa to show up.)

About Sora, he is too a player killer, in the epsiode PARTY, Sora enters the event arena to find Tsukasa and goes around killing players who don't have info for him.

We've got a BT ep, a Bear ep a Mimiru ep, and next a Subaru and Crim ep. will we get an all Sora ep? that would rule!

G1Ravage

06-30-2003, 02:15 PM

Will Cartoon Network
Air episode 27?

No........

MrBananagrabber

06-30-2003, 02:19 PM

They're not airing that extra episode? Why? (and how is it a spoiler, exactly, that the episode exists? ^^;). Is it coming out on the 6th DVD?

And while I'm at it, is there any truth to those rumors about a 28th and 29th episode being produced?

Michael

06-30-2003, 04:57 PM

i KNEW she would disband them when the show first started i had a gut feeling that they were going to go the way of the dodo....i wonder what silver knight will look like now?

Tea

06-30-2003, 07:01 PM

I liked this episode.

Subaru didn't really have much of a choice. She already lost the loyalty of her guild (Notice which way they were bowing in the end) and Silver Knight made her realize that she was being hypocritical. And besides, I guess she took Krim's advice and this was how she wanted to play the game.

Wilco911

06-30-2003, 08:59 PM

I forget, is Carmina Gadalica the server with the city in he clouds with the mountains and stuff (where Mimiru waited and waited and waited for Tsukasa to show up.)

The best way I can describe Carmina Gadalica from .hack//Mutation is that it's a costal city a bit more technologically advanded than the others.

Jude Santos

06-30-2003, 09:38 PM

No........

why not? as of now though, there is no word on wheter it will air or not

kaine23

07-01-2003, 08:10 AM

A funny bit I saw in a . hack AMV regarding .hack//DUSK
a character is fishin in Mac Anu and pulls up a mask of a blue eyed Crimson Knight, and tosses it back as if it were trash, hilarious

episode A+
I remember that scene too Happens in the 1st episodes of DUSK.

Excellent episode, loved the ending!

TsuiTsui

07-01-2003, 11:00 AM

To whoever mentioned the bug, I thought it was a nice touch and was indicative of Tsukasa's growth as a character. In the first episode, at the height of his apathy, Tsukasa saw it as a pest and didn't hesitate to squash it with his staff. Seventeen episodes later, after being "healed", somewhat, through his interaction and friendship with Bear, Mimiru, and Subaru, when Tsukasa sees the bug, he moves his staff as if to squash it again, but instead lets it crawl on and play on it (I could almost swear the bug smiled). Symbolic of the transition from death to life. Or so I read into it.

That was an interesting aspect of the bug's "symbolism." Come to think of it, the bug appeared during the moments when Tsukasa was alone (except for the scene with Subaru) or in deep thought. I basically think of it as some sort of a "Data Bug."

:anime:

The Detective

07-02-2003, 04:43 PM

Wow quite an episode. It's about time someone put Ginkan in his place. But I wonder, know that the Knight's are no more, what will Ginkan do? And what will he look like without the mask?

Anway did anyone notice that towards the end there really wasn't much animation? It just kind of flashed around Subaru, Ginkan, and the other couple of Knight's that were there while you could hear Ginkan and Subaru fighting.

I wonder what Subaru will do know? I mean all she ever does is sit in that boat with a SK or two know what is she going to do?

he I have nothing else to say this week. Cheers.

lostrune

07-02-2003, 08:49 PM

Anway did anyone notice that towards the end there really wasn't much animation? It just kind of flashed around Subaru, Ginkan, and the other couple of Knight's that were there while you could hear Ginkan and Subaru fighting.

That's a common anime trick. They disguise "ambience" to avoid doing more animation work.
Kinda like the key in magicians' "magic" is misdirection - they focus your attention in one direction while they pull the trick in the other.