Cowboy Bebop episode 26 *SPOILERS*

[avmoghe]

There has been one thing that has bothered me from episode 26 of cowboy bebop.

Yes, we all know Spike died.. he was fatally wounded by Vicious, his star faded away.. etc..

But Vicious? Did he die?

At first it seems like it since he is shot through the heart.

But wouldn't his syndicate members try to save their leader? (like Faye saved Spike from death in episode 5) More importantly, why is his body missing from the background as the "camera" zooms out?

Are the creators trying to tell us something? Or is it a mistake? It just seems to me to be one heck of an important thing to make a mistake on (the death of a character).

Its probably wishful thinking on my part that my favorite character (Vicious) survived. I do agree that Spike and Vicious killing each other makes the perfect ending.. but that missing body is bothering me. Any help would be appreciated.

avmoghe

[Killtacular]

Several hours elapsed between the point of Spike's battle and Spike walking down the stairs.

If you'll notice, it's nighttime when they fight, and morning when he collapses in the lobby.

This actually annoys me, cause that suggests there was at least 2 hours or so where Spike was just sitting around. And why aren't the police there? You hear explosions.. MULTIPLE ones.. and the police do nothing? Even if it's a syndicate, I don't think that's stopped the police before. Jet busted syndicate members when he was with the ISSP after all.

No ambulances? Surely someone must be on hand to tend to Spike's body. Lastly, it seems more like he's passed out from exhaustion than dying away. If I had walked down 100-some floors of stairs, I'd probably collapse on the floor too. Not necessarily from exhaustion, perhaps just from the agonizing tedium of walking down 100 floors of stairs.

[avmoghe]

Um.. I dont think so.

Its not morning when he collapses.. Its just for effect that they made everything white. They kept the color from the flashback he had of Julia. It was just symbolic since Spike was about to die, and his vision was getting blurry. If you want proof look at the syndicate member standing there... they wouldn't stand there in those positions for hours till the morning like that.

He collapses about a half a minute after shooting Vicious. He starts limping down the stairs and dies there. He does not walk down hundreds of floors at all. He dies in the same room as Vicious.. (if you notice the roof is blown off). I'd recommend watching that last bit again to see what I'm saying.

avmgohe

[Killtacular]

It's daytime. The camera trucks out after he collapses, revealing that it is daytime (as obligatory birds fly by the camera).

[avmoghe]

No, as I said its more of a symbolic thing. since the song blue says "never seen a blue sky.. etc...", they made it look like it was morning. It symbolized spike's dawn.. he can finally die.. since he's lost all his reason to live.

Spike dies in the same room as Vicious does.. half a minute or so later.. look at the camera as it zooms out of the room.. you'll see the same roof blown up by the explosives that Spike threw into the final room to kill Vicious.

[Jess]

Yes, we all know Spike died.. he was fatally wounded by Vicious, his star faded away.. etc..

You'd actually be suprised about how much speculation and how some people are convinced that Spike is alive in some of the Bebop communities I've visited.

But Vicious? Did he die?

I believed that he did die but it has been pointed out that on the last scene where 'Spikes' (some say it was Vicious's, how they get that when we're told that it was Spike's, I don't have a clue) star fades, there is a red star near it and they say that could be Vicious's star and it doesn't fade.

But wouldn't his syndicate members try to save their leader?

From what I've gathered by watching the series several times is that everyone knew of Spike and Vicious - if they also knew that they 'teamed' (the flashback of them fighting back to back) up, I'm not sure - and that it was something they had to settle it between them.

More then likely, Vicious told them not to interfere, as Spike did with Faye and Jet.

[avmoghe]

Haha.. why would they show Vicious' star? the episode didn't focus on Vicious at all! It focuses on Spike, and his star is the one that's shown.. right before they show his body at the end (after the credits).

Besides they wouldn't play the song "Blue" to symbolize Vicious' death..

No. Spike is dead.. there's many many other signs that show that. Its just Vicious missing body that's bothing me.

avmoghe

[Killtacular]

No, as I said its more of a symbolic thing. since the song blue says "never seen a blue sky.. etc...", they made it look like it was morning. It symbolized spike's dawn.. he can finally die.. since he's lost all his reason to live.
I think trying to find symbolism in a series that tries not to deal with the visual aspect of symbolism at all (except Teddy Bomber), is reading into things a little too much. The sky is blue, and the room is flooded with light from the roof, because it's daybreak, morning, sunrise, whatever you want to call it. It has nothing to do with Spike's dawn. It has to do with the fact that time passed and the sun rose and Spike had to have been doing something undeterminable for some length of time before he and the remaining syndicate members confronted.

And he had more than one reason to live besides Julia, I think that's obvious to everyone.

[avmoghe]

Yes, they made it light for the last scene.. so that they could send the doves flying, so they could cue the song blue, so they could shy how everything was going white in Spike's eyes as he lost consciousness.

CB does use symbolism.. I mean.. the white doves that the showed when Julia was shot.. and when Spike died.. they were both symbolic of death and freedom.. but they showed them anyways. (I find it a little hard to believe that a set of white doves was actually conveniently around when both of them died)

He didn't have any reason to live after Julia was dead.. he even said to Vicious "Julia is dead...Lets end it all". That pretty much says to me that he didn't really want to keep going at that point.

Either way... did you see the fact that Spike and Vicious both fall in the same room? Spike falls on the very same staircase that he ran up to get a closer shot at Vicious, under the very same roof that was blown up by his explosives. Now if you agree on that.. do you think the red dragon members and Spike would just stand there for hours and hours?

If youre thinking that Spike made it all the way to the bottom of the building, then they would've shown the escalators that were there. We saw that looong staircase only once in the entire episode.. when spike ran up to get a closer shot at vicious...and that was the same staircase that Spike fell on.

[Killtacular]

CB does use symbolism.. I mean.. the white doves that the showed when Julia was shot.. and when Spike died.. they were both symbolic of death and freedom.. but they showed them anyways. (I find it a little hard to believe that a set of white doves was actually conveniently around when both of them died)
That was a reference to John Woo. Or one of those directors. Had a big fascination with doves. It wasn't a "parody", it was more of an homage. Come to think of it, Cowboy Bebop is kind of one giant love letter to directors like John Woo.

[avmoghe]

Haha. didn't know about John woo.

Either way, as I was saying, CB does do some things for effect. If you want to see the ultimate proof of it look at Julia's death scene.. the real one and the one that Spike sees in the flashback. You'll see that the flashback one is a lot brighter... same thing here.. they brighten stuff up for effect.

either way.. still stuck on Vicious's disappering body :(

avmoghe

[Rikou]

Ooh, look at this debate!

I, personally, never paid much attention to how light it was at the end of the episode. Was too busy crying big messy fangirl tears, I guess.

I did think, however, that Spike collapsed on the steps he'd run up to get to Vicious. And that they were both dead.

But Matt, who has proven to be more astute and intelligent than half the people on this board on several occasions, has some excellent points. So now I don't know what to think anymore.

[Aurochs]

But wouldn't his syndicate members try to save their leader? (like Faye saved Spike from death in episode 5)

I think the series made it quite evident that everyone from the syndicate hated Vicious.

More importantly, why is his body missing from the background as the "camera" zooms out?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that scene had a lot of rubble. Vicious' corpse probably was just out of sight do to the rubble.

Several hours elapsed between the point of Spike's battle and Spike walking down the stairs.If you'll notice, it's nighttime when they fight, and morning when he collapses in the lobby.

I'll have to agree with avmogue. The sunlight was symbolic. If you have to attach a logical explanation to the phenomenon, it was probably around dawn when the battle took place.

This actually annoys me, cause that suggests there was at least 2 hours or so where Spike was just sitting around.

But it didn't show two hours. It showed several seconds

And why aren't the police there? You hear explosions.. MULTIPLE ones.. and the police do nothing? Even if it's a syndicate, I don't think that's stopped the police before. Jet busted syndicate members when he was with the ISSP after all.

I have a feeling that the ISSP and the police are relatively powerless, especially when it comes to the syndicate. Not to say that the police department is totally powerless, but I have a feeling that the syndicate is just as powerful.

I think trying to find symbolism in a series that tries not to deal with the visual aspect of symbolism at all (except Teddy Bomber), is reading into things a little too much.

Cowboy Bebop's riddled with symbolism. One-third of the show is symbolism, and saying otherwise is ignorant.

Although Spike may not exactly be dead. He might have just fainted from blood loss and exhaustion. And like Matt Wilson said, the ambulances could easily come and treat him. But it ruins the power of the episode. Hence, it's symbolic, like most of the show. If you analyze and debate the happenings in the show, it loses power.

[Killtacular]

Cowboy Bebop's riddled with symbolism. One-third of the show is symbolism, and saying otherwise is ignorant.
Visual. Visual visual visual. There's plenty of verbal allegory, but only verbal. Rarely visual at all.

[avmoghe]

Visual. Visual visual visual. There's plenty of verbal allegory, but only verbal. Rarely visual at all.

No visual too... they made Julia's flashback death brighter than the real death... just like Spike's death scene.


Aurochs: The syndicate members didn't hate Vicious at all.. Why do you think they helped him in the execution chamber to kill the elders?! He was obviously a better syndicate leader in their eyes.

Yes there was a lot of rubble, but the rubble fell before Spike and Vicious fell open. Vicious' body should've been out in the open as the camera zoomed out.

[Killtacular]

No visual too... they made Julia's flashback death brighter than the real death.
Yes, because EVERY CARTOON ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH makes their flashbacks brighter than the original event.

[avmoghe]

Yes, because EVERY CARTOON ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH makes their flashbacks brighter than the original event.


Um.. I just watched Spike's other flashbacks.. and they dont compare to anywhere near the brightness that Julia's flashback had. They seem like normal scenes to me.

Either way, if you belive it to be morning, then you'd be saying that Spike and the Syndicate members stood around in the same room for hours and hours... which doesn't make sense to me at all.

[The Landstander]

Well, I just saw the episode last night for the first time...I personally didn't think it had passed to morning. I thought the scene was brighter for dramatic effect or something. Eh...

[Rikou]

The syndicate members didn't hate Vicious at all.. Why do you think they helped him in the execution chamber to kill the elders?! He was obviously a better syndicate leader in their eyes.

Then why'd Shin (or was it Lin? I think it was Shin...) help Spike out? Huh huh huh? I don't think anyone was really fond of Vicious.

He may have been better than the old guys, but not by much.

[The_Dominion]

Step back a momemnt, look at this.

This is Mars the sky should not be blue.
Mars's days/nights are longer

and

Why did the syndicate members coming running up just as spike walked down the stairs.

This and more leads me to believe it is 2 things.
A)An Oversight
B)Symbolism

I doubt it is A so we are left with one choice.

[AVianes]

The syndicate members didn't hate Vicious at all.. Why do you think they helped him in the execution chamber to kill the elders?! He was obviously a better syndicate leader in their eyes.



They probably helped him because they where scared of him, I mean look at him that guy was one crazy bastard.

[Animation Otaku]

Then why'd Shin (or was it Lin? I think it was Shin...) help Spike out? Huh huh huh? I don't think anyone was really fond of Vicious.

He may have been better than the old guys, but not by much.

I think Shin and a few others hated him, but evidently there were a lot who did like him. Lin for instance, as well as a lot of other people that didn't have names.

[avmoghe]

Yes Shin was one of the few who helped Spike.. and he was the ONLY one... all the rest of the red dragon members were shooting at spike.

But look at Lin.. he died protecting Vicious...the others respected him and thought he was a good leader.. they wouldn't have helped him out in the execution chamber if they didn't think so. If they were just afraid of him they wouldn't have helped him then

Rikou: how do you know he wansn't much better than the old men?

[Maphmaa]

But look at Lin.. he died protecting Vicious...the others respected him and thought he was a good leader.. they wouldn't have helped him out in the execution chamber if they didn't think so. If they were just afraid of him they wouldn't have helped him then

Didn't Vicious say to Spike later something along the lines of "He wasn't protecting me, he was protecting the rules?"

[ArmyOfClones]

hehe, this is great, the almighty Matt Wilson is being challenged!! :D

[saladdays]

Step back a momemnt, look at this.

This is Mars the sky should not be blue.
Mars's days/nights are longer

and

Why did the syndicate members coming running up just as spike walked down the stairs.

This and more leads me to believe it is 2 things.
A)An Oversight
B)Symbolism

I doubt it is A so we are left with one choice.

I always thought the syndicate members ran up the stairs because they realized that the fight between Spike and Vicious was over. They just let theme fight until it was done.

[avmoghe]

I always thought the syndicate members ran up the stairs because they realized that the fight between Spike and Vicious was over. They just let theme fight until it was done.


Yes, but what I'm trying to find out is why the creators removed Vicious' body from the room. It shouldve been right there at the top of the stairs on which Spike died. No one seems to know why..:(

[saladdays]

Yes, but what I'm trying to find out is why the creators removed Vicious' body from the room. It shouldve been right there at the top of the stairs on which Spike died. No one seems to know why..:(

I dunno. I'd have to go and look at that scene again before I could tell you.

[ClockStomper]

Enough. The "Is Spike really dead?" debate is the dumbest debate ever. Spike is dead. The creators said so. Deal with it. If it's too hard to except, you should take a break from Adult Swim and wait until you're older, jaded and bitter.

[Bebop Blues]

Several hours elapsed between the point of Spike's battle and Spike walking down the stairs.

If you'll notice, it's nighttime when they fight, and morning when he collapses in the lobby.

This actually annoys me, cause that suggests there was at least 2 hours or so where Spike was just sitting around. And why aren't the police there? You hear explosions.. MULTIPLE ones.. and the police do nothing? Even if it's a syndicate, I don't think that's stopped the police before. Jet busted syndicate members when he was with the ISSP after all.

No ambulances? Surely someone must be on hand to tend to Spike's body. Lastly, it seems more like he's passed out from exhaustion than dying away. If I had walked down 100-some floors of stairs, I'd probably collapse on the floor too. Not necessarily from exhaustion, perhaps just from the agonizing tedium of walking down 100 floors of stairs.

several hours? when they started to fight it was almost morning.when spike got to there it didnt become night remember he was with julia in the begining of the night then when she died he went back to the ship and eat his last meal. So by the time he went to the syndicate it could of been only an hour or so intill morning

[Killtacular]

When the roof blew up, and before they began to fight, it was still nighttime.

[Animation Otaku]

It was very early morning. When they ended their fight it was almost daybreak.

[saladdays]

Enough. The "Is Spike really dead?" debate is the dumbest debate ever. Spike is dead. The creators said so. Deal with it. If it's too hard to except, you should take a break from Adult Swim and wait until you're older, jaded and bitter.

Umm, this thread wasn't about that. It was about where Vicious body was as Spike was dying. Read before you post.

[saladdays]

It was very early morning. When they ended their fight it was almost daybreak.

That's what I always thought too. I never thought several hours went by.

[Master Moron]

It was very early morning. When they ended their fight it was almost daybreak.

I agree. The argument that it wasn't really morning because it was symbolism is rather ridiculous. Just because something is symbolic doesn't mean it didn't really happen in the context of the story.

[avmoghe]

I agree. The argument that it wasn't really morning because it was symbolism is rather ridiculous. Just because something is symbolic doesn't mean it didn't really happen in the context of the story.

Ok.. does the amount of light in that look like a regular dawn?! It is waayy too bright. It shouldn't even be that bright at noon.

Look at how they made Julia's flashback a loot brighter than the real death scene. the kept that exact same color for the finish.

When Vicious and Spike said 'lets end it all' it was still dark outside as far as I can see. And in a few seconds Spike and Vicious both fell.

If we are to accept that it was morning, they we'd be saying that Spike and the red dragon members just stood there in the same room for hours as the sky changed from dark to light. Does that make sense? It doesn't to me.

So given how they brightened up Julia's flashback, I think they brightened everything up. It was wayyyy to bright to be a regular dawn. Notice that the light is so intense that its even brighter than it would be at high noon... So I thought it was just a symbolic of Spike slipping out of consciousness and everything in his mind turning white.