Man...Being American Sucks Right Now [Archive]

SilverKnight

02-13-2003, 10:40 AM

This sucks. What did I do? Did I swear too much or what? How did I get this punishment?

Everywhere I go, it's "dirty American" this and "anti-American" that. The whole friggin' world hates us. I used to say that as a joke, but come on, this is ridiculous.

Of course, I can understand why. I mean, we don't exactly have a good track record in...well, anything, really. We've either stalemated or lost practically every war we've been in (WWI and WWII being the exceptions, and you can't even pick the Civil War, because, I mean, come on), we're rude, arrogant, callous, and we're too damn loud for our own good.

But, still. This sucks. I mean, I figured that some would be a little miffed by us and our seemingly rampant stupidy, but everybody? Everywhere? The only people who don't seem to curse our very existence is Canada (who beat our ass in the war of 1812, by the way), and even then, I don't think they like us all that much, if that one senator guy there is any indication.

I mean, I'm (more or less) proud to be American, but geez. If we do one more stupid thing, I'm not sure what I'm gonna do.

What? We're going to war?

That's it, I'm moving to Canada.

(Note, this is tongue in cheek. So, take it for the grain of salt it's worth.)

Patrick Bateman

02-13-2003, 10:59 AM

I agree 100%. I'm starting to hate living here. All these old guys in business suits up in D.C. keep making everyone hate us more and more by the day. Y'know what's really sad? When you can look at it from an outside point of view and say "Damn. I'd hate us too."

Now, I'm loyal to this country, no doubt. But I just think we have the wrong people representing who we are. The only Americans these terrorists ever see is the ones in Washington being a bunch of fight-picking idiots. I think it's time to let the people speak for themselves. I'm sick and tired of all these jerkoffs speaking for me and thusly putting my life in jeopardy. Their opinions are NOT the opinions of America. So if anyone is going to be hated, make it the higher-ups in D.C., not the average citizen just trying to live a normal life. We never did anything to anyone.

The Guard

02-13-2003, 11:10 AM

Sucks? People, we have access to things and lifestyles that many people can only fantasize about. We have enough food to feed most of us. We can go watch a well-written, well-acted movie pretty much whenever we want. No one tells us how to think or what to do. We can work where we want, do what we want, support the political party we want. Worship whatever and wherever and whenever we want. We have a government that, while it has it's problems, really does tend to look out for the people, and actually kind of works at times. I feel blessed to be a part of this country, not cursed.

Patrick Bateman

02-13-2003, 11:12 AM

The Guard

02-13-2003, 11:14 AM

Canada doesn't meddle in the entire world's affairs. It doesn't provide weapons to certain terrorist networks, and then go to war on them when it backfires. It doesn't screw it's neighbors out of their natural resources and their industries.

Psycho Fox

02-13-2003, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by Batman Year One
Exactly my point. Living here isn't a blessing compared to Canada. Well Canada has its problems to. The CRTC is much more annoying and a control freak then the FCC. Then there is higher taxes then the US,ect

Lucky Bob

02-13-2003, 11:46 AM

And it's cold up there! Plus, you have to live under a Socialist government.

JohnCrichton

02-13-2003, 11:48 AM

*waits for the first person to say, "If you don't like it then LEAVE!!!"*

Lucky Bob

02-13-2003, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by JohnCrichton
*waits for the first person to say, "If you don't like it then LEAVE!!!"*

You just did! :D

Bartak123

02-13-2003, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by luckybob1985
And it's cold up there! Plus, you have to live under a Socialist government.

Canada is socialist!
We have free health care, thats about it...

Originally posted by PsychoFox
Well Canada has its problems to. The CRTC is much more annoying and a control freak then the FCC. Then there is higher taxes then the US,ect

I HATE YOU GLOBAL!!!!!! (we don't get to watch superbowl commercials)

TimTwoFace

02-13-2003, 12:04 PM

*READS THE ABOVE POSTS AND SUDDENLY FEELS RATHER PATRIOTIC* *"OH CANADA" PLAYS IN THE BACKGROUND* OK, that's it, I gotta go cook some bacon, crack open a beer, and watch some hockey now.

Originally posted by SilverKnight

Of course, I can understand why. I mean, we don't exactly have a good track record in...well, anything, really. We've either stalemated or lost practically every war we've been in (WWI and WWII being the exceptions, and you can't even pick the Civil War, because, I mean, come on), we're rude, arrogant, callous, and we're too damn loud for our own good.

But, still. This sucks. I mean, I figured that some would be a little miffed by us and our seemingly rampant stupidy, but everybody? Everywhere? The only people who don't seem to curse our very existence is Canada (who beat our ass in the war of 1812, by the way), and even then, I don't think they like us all that much, if that one senator guy there is any indication.

Well, you hit the nail on the head there, SK. It may make me rather unpopular on the board to say so, but I will anyway - I'm not a big fan of the US, either, for the exact reasons listed above.

A lot of my friends - and a good chunk of my online friends - live Stateside, and I love 'em to pieces. It's the American federal government, particularly their foreign policy issues, that bother me. I can forgive the typical "American Ignorance" of foreign countries - it's just a joke, really - but foreign policy issues (in terms of military and economics) with any country are always up to debate. The US is always front and centre with this issue because, let's face it, they are the closest thing the world has to a superpower nowadays, and wants to have a say in all of the major global affairs. Such issues always come with a certain amount of friction between groups - that's just the nature of the beast - and as the US seems to always be there, they're badmouthed to no end abroad.

Is it nice? Not at all. Is it deserved? In some situations, you bet. In others, not at all. You can't generalize with a topic like this, considering the years of history and numerous issues that are tied in to it.

And yeah, even in Canada, there is a general sense of negativity towards the US - not American people, just the US government in general. The thing that grates on most people up here is the ignorance of our culture; we're exposed to the US culture 24/7 and know virtually everything about it, but it's not reciprocated.

At the same time, though, we really don't care, and just laugh it off; most Canadians have a playful, self-depreciating sense of humour, anyway. We have our own agenda in dealing with our little civil war or words that's been going on for years - before it was just Canada vs. Quebec, English vs. French, etc, etc - but now it's more a case of the East vs. the West, or everyone versus "the province of Toronto". :D (See? Self-depreciating humour, right there.)

That's it, I'm moving to Canada.

All right then. Party at my house! BYOB! :D

-Tim
(Pro-Canadian, not anti-American - just anti-Bush-and-company.)

James

02-13-2003, 12:16 PM

Perhaps I'm biased. I love America and Americans (oh, and Canadians too!). While sometimes a little less reserved and seemingly a tad more emotionalyl unprdictable as Brits (from my POV) I've always found them warm friendly people. I've grown up with American culture and I feel very comfortable with all those here. So it's not across the board.

I think what is felt is caution and maybe fear for the Bush Administration and it's international policies not hatred for the people. People are not sure what to make of the President and with him making such an impact on the delicate web that holds together the international community, I think people are scared what may come.

Terminatah

02-13-2003, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by Batman Year One
Well, Canada has all those things too. And the world doesn't hate them. :rolleyes: No, we just pity them. ;)

-Terminatah

Supreme

02-13-2003, 01:18 PM

I'll re-post my response to a similar post from another site (hopefully the censored words won't offend anyone):

When it comes to politics, damned near 100% of Americans (or perhaps all people in general) are complete ****ing idiots. Oddly enough, nearly 100% of these complete ****ing idiots, when asked, have a fairly strong idea of what we should do regarding the escalating situation in Iraq. Sure, on the news a lot of people are undecided. But if you could get a one-on-one with each of them and ask, you'd get a wide array of particularly egotistical answers such as "I'd just off that Saddaam and get it over with" or "Bush is a war monger, we should just keep our noses out of other people's business". Thankfully, these twits are no closer to controlling the fate of our nation than they are to proving that one of the eleven herbs and spices in Kentucky Fried Chicken is crack, thus keeping the black man perpetually "down".
Now, I don't want to go off on my personal politics regarding the situation, because quite frankly, I know that I'm not a political genius. I know that I am ill-informed, no matter how much CNN I force-feed myself. However, since I am more informed than most, I would like to take this opportunity to verbally {anatomy}-punch many of the retarded waste-of-carbon life forms that I have to interact with every day. Let me start with those of you who like to regurgitate whatever "hip" catch phrase that has entered your feeble little grey matter after catching a couple of minutes of Ted Koppel.
First off, I never want to hear the ****ing phrase "If only Bush hadn't stolen the election..." again. Because honestly, if the situation were reversed, the other half of America would be saying the same ****ing thing about Gore. And instead of you making fun of Bushisms, we'd all be falling asleep during the State of the Union. Then a few hundred Saudi's would get gassed, and we'd all wake up and wonder why someone had to harsh on our power nap. Another one that pisses me off is "Bush is only in this to get revenge for them tryin' to shoot his daddy." When God placed you on planet Earth, did he tell you that you'd have mental retardation or were you expected to figure it out on your own? Every ****ing President has to expect that someone is going to take a potshot at him. ****, if I were President I'd imagine a lot more people would want me dead. Would I take it personally? No. Would I expect my son to one day create the most expensive military endeavor to date, just to take a piece back for his old man? Something tells me I'd get him some ****ing decaf first. To think that ******* Congress would go along with something like this out of revenge for a President who didn't even get seriously injured is just pathetic. But you know what's even more pathetic? Most of you probably graduated high school, what does that say for American education?
Another one I want to touch on is a quote I heard just yesterday after Colin Powell's address: "If like, 75% of Americans think that we should stay out of it, don't you think that we should do what the American people want?" ...Please. If the American public's combined political intelligence were measured as if it were a Hollywood heartthrob, it would fall somewhere between Clint Howard and the "Before" version of Jared, the Subway guy. The American public has a track record of completely cocking up political predictions. Want proof? Around 1940, while Jews were just starting to be introduced to showers that were used for a different kind of cleansing, nearly 90% of the American public thought that we should keep out of it. Nobody thought that Hitler was worth our time, because he was too small to accomplish the goals he had so clearly outlined in "Mein Kampf". He was Time's Man Of The Year for God's sake. And it took sacrificing the lives of 2400 people at Pearl Harbor in December of 1941 before the public (not the government) decided that maybe this "Axis of Evil" was something that we should seriously look into. If Hitler were alive today, he'd be a recurring character by Chris Kattan on Saturday Night Live. Because we've seen Saddaam so much on television, we've almost endeared him as a sort of cartoonish villain. Sure he's evil, sure he might use his unaccounted for FOUR TONS OF ****ING NERVE GAS to slaughter some more innocents, but for cryin' out loud, we don't need to go to war over it. Just change the channel, I think Joe Millionaire is on.
I think I've rambled on for far too long. Just remember the next time you spout that idiotic "we're only invading because of the oil!" rhetoric, consider this little tidbit. How would you like to be paying ten bucks a gallon the next time you go to fill up your ******* Excursion? Yeah, now invading a country filled with soldiers who wouldn't think twice about slitting your throat and spitting on your grave doesn't seem like such a bad idea, does it? Sure, it's not our primary concern, and it seems a tad bit extreme, but that's going to seriously cut into my Grande Latte' budget!

I love Canada too, but face it: it's not a World Power or very politically turbulent. Might as well say "No one hates Cancun."

DJ Raza

02-13-2003, 01:25 PM

This sucks. What did I do? Did I swear too much or what? How did I get this punishment?

What punishment?

Living in the United States?

Yes, its such a punishment to live in one of the most successful societies upon the face of the planet.

Everywhere I go, it's "dirty American" this and "anti-American" that. The whole friggin' world hates us. I used to say that as a joke, but come on, this is ridiculous.

Everywhere you "go"? Like where? Work? School?

Where do they constantly say "dirty American" and "anti-American" to you?

Do you commute to the Middle East in the morning or something?

Of course, I can understand why. I mean, we don't exactly have a good track record in...well, anything, really. We've either stalemated or lost practically every war we've been in (WWI and WWII being the exceptions, and you can't even pick the Civil War, because, I mean, come on), we're rude, arrogant, callous, and we're too damn loud for our own good.

Hell yes we are, and I'll be damned if I had it any other way.

But, still. This sucks. I mean, I figured that some would be a little miffed by us and our seemingly rampant stupidy, but everybody? Everywhere? The only people who don't seem to curse our very existence is Canada (who beat our ass in the war of 1812, by the way), and even then, I don't think they like us all that much, if that one senator guy there is any indication.

Myself, personally, I could care less what everyone thinks about us. As long as there's still trading of imports and exports, I really don't care what other countries say about us.

They can moan and whine all day. Doesn't affect my community or life's atmosphere. They're just wasting their own time because either they're jealous or ignorant. That's how I see it anyway.

I mean, I'm (more or less) proud to be American, but geez. If we do one more stupid thing, I'm not sure what I'm gonna do.

I beg to differ. This whole thread basically seems like a "self-hate" situation. You insulted the country's history, referred to it as being "stupid" twice and said you can sympathize for countries that dislike us.

So, you're proud to be an American, how?

What? We're going to war?

Let me guess... you're leaving, correct?

That's it, I'm moving to Canada.

Farewell, Mr. Proud American.

JohnCrichton

02-13-2003, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by luckybob1985
You just did! :D

Dammit! :D

sCoRpiO

02-13-2003, 02:11 PM

look...u anericans are damn lucky ok...
the american Anmy ppl or whatever want a war with Iraq ok....and because America is too far away from Iraq for bombing and that crap then now they are making the war with iraq in Kuwait ..my counrty....and look..the kuwaiti government cant do anything about that cause if they disagree with that..finish kuwait is gone the Americans will make kuwait fly in the heavens above....so u see how crap and unfair it is here...what the hell have we got to do with it ..a war in kuwait...
but thats life...
if u cant beat em join em!

so waddya think now?!?!?!

sCoRpiO~

Nightflower

02-13-2003, 02:27 PM

Anyone wants to come to Canada can feel free to live with me... you'd have to put up with my roommate though... and it sure is cold up here... :D

And Tim's right.... the rest of the country is against Toronto. :P

JohnCrichton

02-13-2003, 02:30 PM

Gee, what guy would wanna move in with a girl like, Nightflower. :rolleyes:

The Detective

02-13-2003, 02:36 PM

Be glad you don't live in Iraq. :p

Joe Wagner

02-13-2003, 02:55 PM

I am truly sorry to see so many people feel this way about our culture and that this self hate of America has been allowed to ascend to the levels that it has jumped to. SilverKnight - you mentioned that the US has never won a war (except WWI and WWII) but you completely negate every war before and after that. In almost every military conflict the US has proven to be successful. The Revolutionary War? The Persian Gulf War? The Spanish-American War? The Korean War? All successful American campaigns.

It is true that there is a lot of anti-Americanism that has been running rampant around the world today but one must wonder why this has been allowed to happen. Many would blame our foreign policies but the evidence seems to dictate that our foregin policies have helped nations the world over - even saving the European nations from themselves in WWI and WWII. Some claim it is because of our support of Israel - a nation that allows free elections and is built on the same Judeo-Christian values that our founding fathers built this great nation upon. Others would see that it is because of our imperialistic nature - one that has never come to fruition as the US is the first superpower to not attempt global colonization/domination like the Roman Empire, Ottoman-Turk Empire and British Empire before it.

In my own experience I found that much of these feelings of anti-Americanism come from a embodying amount of jealousy. The nations of Africa think that the US should rebuild all of their cities and create a strong African nation - even though it was the European nations that established the policies of many of these nations during the time of colonization. The French continually despise America - a nation that rescued France in both WWI and WWII and provided troops to Vietnam in an effort to help our ally in the region. Perhaps a review of history would remind the French about the sacrifices the US has made on their behalf.

As for those of you that would consider Canada as being a safe haven - you may want to reconsider. Since Canada baned the terrorist group Hezbollah they have been receiving terrorist threats against their nation, prompting the government to issue a warning to their citizens that it is no longer safe to display their Canadian status while traveling in the Middle East and other areas of the world. Recent reports also show that Canada is preparing to join the coalition against Iraq - currently meeting with the US Military in an effort to coordinate plans on Iraq.

-Joe!

Brainatra

02-13-2003, 03:03 PM

While I'm vehemently against the Bush administration's various policies/tactics implemented to date (and figure our self-image to other countries probably is pretty questionable these days), this lefty still likes living in the United States (or at least, the part of the U.S. he's in now vs. Indiana)...

-B.

Enrique

02-13-2003, 03:48 PM

I believe this coutry has gone the way of the workers unions... they both started with noble, honorable intentions, but have gone horribly out of the control of the very people it's supposed to serve.
And now as I sit here, watching the news reports on how hundreds of people are cleaning out stores' supplies of plastic sheeting and duct tape, batteries, food and first aid supplies, I see how ridiculously out of control our current government has gone. I mean, just think about it, within DAYS of starting his presidency, Bush bombs Iraq for absolutely no reason. I bet the son of a ***** was giddy with joy after 9/11, as it gave him more than enough reason to start a war in the Middle East, which he's been itching to do since he became president. Bush doesn't even consult with his people, he just cuts taxes and draws up plans as he pleases, throwing our economy to crap and stirring up more hatred across the world. The reason why there's so much hatred for Americans is because Bush continues pressing on for war despite other countries' lack of support (which I believe has never happened before).
I don't believe in war because I see it as one group of blind followers fighting another group of blind followers while the real problem-starters sit in their mansions drinking wine. That said, I have absolutely no problem with a well-planned assassination that spares the lives of innocents, which should've been done with Hussein a decade ago.
This country isn't as free or great as it's claimed to be. The government outlaws mundane things like jaywalking and riding bikes without helmets and calls it "making the streets safe", meanwhile, criminals end their prison sentences early because of "good behavior". They put our electricity in the hands of private companies that screw us over, and then tell us to screw ourselves when we ask them to intervene. The pour billions of dollars into some top secret spy plane while our schools are literally falling apart. They train enemy armies in modern warfare and expect it not to come back and bite us in the ass, while on our own soil homeless die and drug dealers are free to deal with children who haven't even hit puberty.
Sure, I live decent. I eat, I sleep, I do a lot of things others can't. But I'm not blind or gullible; I see the flaws in this society and its government. I believe the only way to fix the government is to treat is as a psychological case... you bring everything down and rebuild.

Daniel P

02-13-2003, 04:00 PM

It's all the government's fault, in my opinion. Even the west European countries, our ALLIES, are starting to disagree with us (or at least that's what they told me on CNN this morning). And you know why? Because George W. Bush and Colin Powell want a war. Look at these contradictory examples:

- George W. Bush, at a memorial for the Columbia Space Shuttle accident, says that it is a shame that seven people died. "We'll miss them. And to those children who's mothers and fathers died, they're proud of you." And here he is, about to send out a jillion soldiers to die in a war when half the Americans don't even know the hell is going on.

- Osama Bin Laden's latest tape says that Saddam is a socialist and usually would not work with "infidels" such as him. And there Colin and George are, even after the tape is released, trying to push the idea that Saddam has been teamed with Al Quaeda this entire time!

Why are we going to war with Iraq? What about Korea? I have no idea WHY they are making new "wepons of mass destruction," (that phrase is used so much now), maybe they want attention. But all George wants to do is focus on Iraq. I still don't know if we're in a war or not (maybe we will be in one soon?), but I am sure tired of this.

ZorBrak

02-13-2003, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by sCoRpiO
look...u anericans are damn lucky ok...
the american Anmy ppl or whatever want a war with Iraq ok....and because America is too far away from Iraq for bombing and that crap then now they are making the war with iraq in Kuwait ..my counrty....and look..the kuwaiti government cant do anything about that cause if they disagree with that..finish kuwait is gone the Americans will make kuwait fly in the heavens above....so u see how crap and unfair it is here...what the hell have we got to do with it ..a war in kuwait...
but thats life...
if u cant beat em join em!

so waddya think now?!?!?!

sCoRpiO~

I think that is a silly comment that's what I think :rolleyes: ...the "american army ppl" don't want a war with Iraq, we want to live life and be left the frick alone like the rest of the world. Frankly I don't know what to think about a war with Iraq..it's a scarey situation....especially the thing with North Korea. I know Saddam and Kim Ill er whatever his name is are freaking scumbags and that I think all terrorists should burn in hell, but I don't want mass death and destruction just because I'm American. I want peace for the whole world. I love how America is a big evil tyrant to everyone. We aren't going to "make kuwait fly in the heavens above" or whatever, that is just stupid. I guess all Americans are rich, gun totting cowboys who want to kill innocent woman and children too right?

Joe Wagner

02-13-2003, 04:13 PM

Originally posted by Enrique
I believe this coutry has gone the way of the workers unions... they both started with noble, honorable intentions, but have gone horribly out of the control of the very people it's supposed to serve.
And now as I sit here, watching the news reports on how hundreds of people are cleaning out stores' supplies of plastic sheeting and duct tape, batteries, food and first aid supplies, I see how ridiculously out of control our current government has gone. I mean, just think about it, within DAYS of starting his presidency, Bush bombs Iraq for absolutely no reason. I bet the son of a ***** was giddy with joy after 9/11, as it gave him more than enough reason to start a war in the Middle East, which he's been itching to do since he became president. Bush doesn't even consult with his people, he just cuts taxes and draws up plans as he pleases, throwing our economy to crap and stirring up more hatred across the world. The reason why there's so much hatred for Americans is because Bush continues pressing on for war despite other countries' lack of support (which I believe has never happened before).

There are a couple of falicies in here - the policy of Bush prior to 9/11 was to avoid international matters, a policy that lead many nations to openly worry about what this policy could mean to the world. During Bush's first months in office he continually stated that he was willing to use diplomatic measures. When 9/11 happened it caused a ripple effect that made President Bush understand the pervasive threat that exists and re-evaluate his international policies.

As for any bombing attacks on Iraq - Bush never specifically bombed Iraq (unlike Clinton in 1998) and any bombing runs that have occurred since 1998 have been the result of Iraqi non-compliance with the no-fly zones in Northern and Southern Iraq - these zones being patrolled by American and British forces.

As for the economy - the research in the economy has already shown that the downturn had started during the Clinton administration (long before Bush ever took office) and that the questionable accounting practices of the Clinton administration over inflated many figures during his term - creating a paper economy that didn't accurately show the true values of the economy. Also, the Bush administration has had to deal with the loss of billions of dollars following the attacks of 9/11 - causing an already sluggish economy to continue the trend.

As a fourth point - when has having 40 sovereign nations as part of a coalition considered unilateral? The fact is that the US has attained numerous allies on any action in Iraq and that these allies have already agreed to provide troops and other forms of assistance - in essence making the arguement of this being only a unilateral or bilateral war devoid of truthful information and a completely inaccurate representation of the facts.

-Joe!

Turtle25

02-13-2003, 04:23 PM

Yes, it's not-Toronto vs. Toronto. It's one of those things where they don't like it, but can't live without it either. Toronto is a good sixth of the country (using 2001 estimates: 5,210,000) and a commerical centre. we're not going away any time soon, not if they fix up the Gardiner.

Personally, I'm a little sick of both sides of the American issue. Bottom line is, America is a country with many good things going for it, freedom (yes, freedom, it exists) and adequate pulic services. Though not to the level of Canada's freedom and services, but that's another debate.

I think Bush should really back off on Iraq. Though I do not believe him to be an idiot, or a warmonger. Funny thing: I never see the media praising Bush, as many accuse. I only see media accusing other media of praising Bush. Bush is an example of a reputation weighing down a man.

Right, back to Iraq: there are reasons for deposing Saddam, incredibly. Certainly the world would be better off with one less of his kind. In fact, Iraqis (based on my knowledge limited to what's know outside or Iraq) blame the conditions of Saddam's regime on America, because it is responsible for Saddam coming to power in the first place. They want the people responsible for their problem to fix it.

On the other hand, the measures that Bush is taking to get a regime change seem extreme, and not in the purest of motives. Oil is a constant issue, as is the plight of the Iraqi people. I hope a diplomatic solution is still possible, that would be the best way for me.

Now that that is covered, let me say it's not easy being America at all. I wouldn't want to run it. At the level of power and influence the US government possess, it is impossible to be 100% correct or effective, ever. They must deal with constant threats from other governments, deal with issues at home, maintain order in places never even mentioned on boards like this one. And to top it off, several lines in their Constitution mean they must also deal with dissent from their own, lots and lots of it. Their viability, this massive government, rests completely on the people they can never satisfy. Such is the price of freedom, I say. A balance still has to be struck.

And America's ignorance... it's a product of the same freedom and power. Power means confidence, and confidence, unfortunately, turns to ignorance. It would be too hard to educate the populace on all of America's friends, allies, and enemies.

(challenge... try and do it! First, memorize the government structure and rudimentary history of Canada, France, Germany, Iraq, Spain, Israel, Syria, Turkey, China, North Korea, and Britain, to start off. If not, just match the countries to the capitals: Ankara, Jerusalem, Ottawa, Damascus, P'yongyang, Paris, Beijing, Berlin, and Tel Aviv. Also, as a bonus, who is Potemkin?)

I propose to focus educating Americans about Canada first. Expansion Tim Hortons outlets will have little colouring placemats and cups with fascinating facts about Canada on them. That's the best way: get them through their coffee.

Of course, improvements need to be made. But trust me: this odd, jilted democracy of America is a step in a good direction. Now, if we can only get the Tim Hortons delivery to Mr. Bush...

Jade_GL

02-13-2003, 04:36 PM

I love this country, but I admit that the government has done things that, as an American, I am not proud of. The latest being mounting this war which I disagree with very much.

When you look at our past, you see that our country was built on the foundations of Classical Liberalism, which was accepting of change and prized individual rights so long as you didn't infringe on the rights of others.

Now our own government wants to be able to see what books we get out of the library, what emails we write, what websites we visit. This is not what our country was founded on, and goes against the ideals that the founding fathers had. Frankly, that makes me more mad than anything else right now. If I get The Communist Manifesto out of the library (I have to read it for a history class) or some other questionable material, I don't want to have to later explain that to some suits. Oh well.

And I think that we should take into consideration the views of the rest of the world. We are not always right and we should not go into a situation thinking that we are correct from the outset. That is what we have done with this war. Don't get me wrong, we may very well be correct, but we shouldn't have been arrogant about it from the first mentions. It just seems like it was flippant to me, and that's no way to treat other countries, especially our allies and people that we may depend upon int he future.

I just wish that we could see beyond our own desries and listen to the rest of the world. Yes, we are right sometimes, but we are also wrong sometimes as well. I think we should lose the holier than thou attitude and realize that the only hope for a better world is joining together with countires, not exerting some imperialistic and unilateral ideals on others.

Mackenzie Rainelle

02-13-2003, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by Joe Wagner
The Korean War? All successful American campaigns.

Ah, no. What did we accomplish there? The "war" isn't even over yet! There was never a peace treaty, only a ceasefire. The North and South Koreans still hate each other, the North Koreans still hate us, and the boundary between the two countries is EXACTLY where it was before the North Koreans invaded and we vowed to crush them in order to protect South Korea. I wouldn't call that an accomplishment.

Outlander00

02-13-2003, 07:18 PM

Well SK, I'm right there with you!! :p

(even though, I was already planning to do so for personal reasons... not the current political climate :p)

Parallax

02-13-2003, 07:33 PM

Well I haven't read many of the other post so excuse me if I say something stupid since I do that alot. :p You know, I'm not very proud of some of the things the goverment has done, but I do love this country. I know alot of people may disagree with me, I think if we are going to war I might as well support it. Nothings going to change unless Bush and Company completly change there mind. At least I know one thing, these people (goverment) are only temporary but my country, forever. :) Also how come I haven't heard any of this "Anti-American" feeling yet? I want to know so I can write some witty come backs. SHAZAM! :D

Moonbay

02-13-2003, 07:49 PM

Don't make fun of your own country. *tsk tsk* Be a real American, and think postive. I can't really say stay *calm* about it, though.... :D

DJ Raza

02-13-2003, 08:05 PM

Well I haven't read many of the other post so excuse me if I say something stupid since I do that alot. You know, I'm not very proud of some of the things the goverment has done, but I do love this country. I know alot of people may disagree with me, I think if we are going to war I might as well support it. Nothings going to change unless Bush and Company completly change there mind. At least I know one thing, these people (goverment) are only temporary but my country, forever.

Exactly. That's how a I think a real American should feel about this country, regardless of whether they like the idea of "War"/"Bush"/"Powell"/"The economy's present status"/etc. or not.

Another thing I've noticed though (not from ssjgogeta, but from most of the American public around TZ)... people keep acting like "most" Americans don't like the government anymore and that all present government officials are some how "wrong by default" or something.

Although, that is very inaccurate and can be proved otherwise simply by common sense... because...

Nearly every single person in the government was "elected". That means, the "people" or "most" Americans chose these people.

So if some people still want to leave so bad, then they can go. I doubt many people want them here anyway, since having a cowardice attitude won't get anyone much respect anywhere. I seriously doubt many people will be joining them in leaving anyway.

And after this whole thing ends, real Americans can all have a good laugh when the ones who left will be in some other country probably with no money, friends, family or respect...

Well, I'll be laughing at least...

jeffrey 228

02-13-2003, 08:18 PM

Well from what we are reading out of all of this arguement about the War, is just going to make the people here feel somewhat unsafe, and that we have news that 3 contries are going to be at war with us, and that one more thing that happens will result is somthing worst then the past wars, Then again have used this term before for WW3 and that with Korea going to bomb the west coast and possably could work for Iraq is going to be worser then when Japan Hit one of the island of Hawaii, but worser because they got Nuclearbombs that will explode an area for about 300 miles and that is a serous issue why now the US is on a high alret, I mean now Bush has gone too far, and from where I live at at this time, I some what Don't feel safe any more, as that they will bomb naval cities in order to get rid of our defense against both Iraq and North Korea, wich I do not know why they end up doing, this to us,, because we don't have stricter rules then this.

Over all, I just hope this get resolve soon or I may conceder telling my mom we got to move out of here.

James

02-13-2003, 08:25 PM

Originally posted by DJ Raza

So if some people still want to leave so bad, then they can go. I doubt many people want them here anyway, since having a cowardice attitude won't get anyone much respect anywhere. I seriously doubt many people will be joining them in leaving anyway.

And after this whole thing ends, real Americans can all have a good laugh when the ones who left will be in some other country probably with no money, friends, family or respect...

Well, I'll be laughing at least...

No offense DJ, but that's not exactly an understanding attitude to your fellow Americans. Just because you feel okay with everything is no reason to feel such contempt for those who feel they aren't happy with country at present or even want to leave.

To feel like this there must be something wrong. No one wants to leave their country. Instead of comdemning, I suggest respectfuly to try and understand why they feel that way. Why they have such concerns. These are fellow citizens and their voice is just as relevant as yours. In these confusing times, empathy with each other is vital.

Joe Wagner
The French continually despise America - a nation that rescued France in both WWI and WWII and provided troops to Vietnam in an effort to help our ally in the region. Perhaps a review of history would remind the French about the sacrifices the US has made on their behalf.

No offense again :), but as for the France, let's not get bogged down in the past. American did not help France out of pure good will as you describe. America was happy to make profits out of the European war by selling munitions and equipment until Pearl Harbour. They entered the war, as in WWI for their own domestic defense and to crush an enemy which now threatened their security. I think that's perfectly good reason to enter a war - I'm not saying that's wrong, but don't claim that France was fortunate that America decided to liberate them - or they should be forever in debt. Everything was a combined effort in that war. I liked to hope we can remember it that way.

Besides, the French despise everyone.. ;) (J/king Salvor!) They still toll the UK at certain ports I believe for reparations for damages we inflicted on D-Day repelling the Germans! *Shrug* I find it funny! :)

DJ Raza

02-13-2003, 09:12 PM

No offense DJ, but that's not exactly an understanding attitude to your fellow Americans. Just because you feel okay with everything is no reason to feel such contempt for those who feel they aren't happy with country at present or even want to leave.

I never once said I felt "okay" with "everything", but I also never said I'm leaving either.

I feel comtempt with them because they're practically insulting our country (which is my country also), and that's ridiclous. Most of them aren't even researching most of what they discuss. They can only compromise excuses to express their opinion, such as "I don't like war, and never will" or use facts that don't pertain to anything that logic couldn't pick up on like "Innocent people die in war".

That's not a reason we shouldn't go to war, its simply an excuse. I feel most people are completely avoiding the issue altogether to only express their opinion by either changing the subject, redundantly repeating obvious facts or just being totally close-minded. They act like we should just walk away and "mind our own business" while terror runs rampant over there (even though we declared a "war" on terrorism as a whole), while they insult/threaten us constantly.

I also seriously doubt Americans that say we should "walk away" learned anything from the Sept. 11 attacks. All they learned was what they already know "death is sad" and "murder is wrong"...

To feel like this there must be something wrong. No one wants to leave their country.

Then why are they saying they want to leave?

Do they actually think the government's going to be like "Oh, no, wait... please don't go... we'll change everything to meet everyone's personal needs at all times."?

Sorry, this isn't Burger King. You can't always have it your way.

That's why I say they're more than welcome to leave since they keep claimng they want to. And especially since all they want to do is publically insult our great nation. Good riddance.

Instead of comdemning, I suggest respectfuly to try and understand why they feel that way. Why they have such concerns.

Why?

Most of them don't even know why they feel that way... all that most of them can ever say is "War kills innocent people". Most of them supply pretty much no research to explain their opinion, or provide a different answer to our government's situation.

People always try to think of it as "we're sticking our nose in other people's affairs". Hello? Saddam openly admits he hates us and would like to see us die. He is not "instigating", how?

And another thing, where's anyone with an alternate solution?

I have seen not one. All anyone can say is "war is bad" or "I'm leaving".

Where's the answers? Those are just excuses.

Why they have such concerns. These are fellow citizens and their voice is just as relevant as yours. In these confusing times, empathy with each other is vital.

Well, they're the ones that want to leave, and if they do, they are no longer citizens. So then their "voice" would no longer be "relevant", which is fine by me.

So as I said, they are free to leave.

SilverKnight

02-14-2003, 12:22 AM

Wow, I'm surprised I got so many people pissed off at me. :)

I'm proud of this country. I'm proud of who I am. But, I'm not all that proud of the people running it, and I'm ashamed of some of our history. (But, mistakes are to be made. The important thing is that we learn from them, right? Yeah, nukes are bad. :)) Being the apologetic type, I don't like how we're continually stepping on our allies toes. And, whether or not you care about the world's opinion of us, it does matter to some extent. We're burning some bridges doing this, and it will (as always) come back to bite us in the ass.

In all honesty, I guess my post was more of a knee-jerk reaction to the sudden realization that most of the world really doesn't like us all too much. I am happy and proud of my country, but I'm rather edgy about how we keep continually stepping on our allies toes to do what needs to be done. I've said before, whatever discussion about Iraq is entirely academic at this point; we're going to war and that's all there is to it, so I'm just hoping for the best. I have no choice but to trust Bush's doing the right thing.

>shrugs< Take it as you will. Agree with me, mock me, doesn't matter.

Patrick Bateman

02-14-2003, 01:01 AM

>shrugs< Take it as you will. Agree with me, mock me, doesn't matter.
*AGREES WITH YOU*

Psycho Fox

02-14-2003, 01:04 AM

I just don't like the attitude the US has towards the war. 6 days, 6 weeks, shouldn't be 6 months!! uhhh they said the same thing about the Great War (WWI)

It seems to be either a)meaningless proaganda or b)the US goverment underestimates the seriousness of this proposed war. How do they know this war will be simple? and even if they do win quickly how do they know the fighting will stop? In WWI Belgium rebels contenued to fight German troops after Belgium fell, how does the US know the Iraq citizens won't fight US troops after the war?

Bush goes off that the US can handle multipul fronts? uhhh they don't even know if the Iraq war will spill over. Isreal could get involved then Iran then a mini 3rd world war could in theory start up in the middle east and N.Korea can pick that time to start a war. The US is not big enough for every possiblity no nation can that is why it is most logical to keep the theaters of battle as few as possible since each one can bring unexpectied results.

War is unpredictable, a nobody can become a underdog and kick a superpower many many times it size. Thus the US should be prepared for the unexpected which doesn't seem to be the case.

Also the US has not made its plans clear of what it is going to do when it wins. There is some rumor of US army control while they construct a new goverment, I really don't think the people of the middle east will like a nation controled by the US army even if it is temporary.

TimTwoFace

02-14-2003, 01:59 AM

My my, this thread got going in a hurry. I leave for a day and WHOOSH! a whole whack of new posts pop up. :)

*GIVES SK A COOKIE AND A HUG* Well, you may think the world hates ya for whatever reason, but we certainly don't. :)

-Tim

sCoRpiO

02-14-2003, 02:59 AM

Originally posted by ZorBrak
I think that is a silly comment that's what I think :rolleyes: ...the "american army ppl" don't want a war with Iraq, we want to live life and be left the frick alone like the rest of the world. Frankly I don't know what to think about a war with Iraq..it's a scarey situation....especially the thing with North Korea. I know Saddam and Kim Ill er whatever his name is are freaking scumbags and that I think all terrorists should burn in hell, but I don't want mass death and destruction just because I'm American. I want peace for the whole world. I love how America is a big evil tyrant to everyone. We aren't going to "make kuwait fly in the heavens above" or whatever, that is just stupid. I guess all Americans are rich, gun totting cowboys who want to kill innocent woman and children too right?

ok..so u say the Americans dont want a war with iraq right?...so wheres the proof ...give me some evidence so i beleive?!?!?

America just wants to control the whole world and wants to occupy Iraq ........and tell me..what the heck have Kuwait got to do with this....The Americans have absolutely NO RIGHT in having a war with Iraq in kuwait....everywhere go in the north of Kuwait, i see American tanks and that crap...and all the ppl are scared and are leaving kuwait..now tell me...What have kuwait got to do with a war between America & Iraq...tell me?!?!?

sCoRpiO~

ZorBrak

02-14-2003, 03:30 AM

Originally posted by sCoRpiO
ok..so u say the Americans dont want a war with iraq right?...so wheres the proof ...give me some evidence so i beleive?!?!?

America just wants to control the whole world and wants to occupy Iraq ........and tell me..what the heck have Kuwait got to do with this....The Americans have absolutely NO RIGHT in having a war with Iraq in kuwait....everywhere go in the north of Kuwait, i see American tanks and that crap...and all the ppl are scared and are leaving kuwait..now tell me...What have kuwait got to do with a war between America & Iraq...tell me?!?!?

sCoRpiO~
We don't want a war...but some people feel we must have one to stop Iraq. It has to do with Iraq having weapons capable of killing millions of people and wants to use them on innocent people, and probably any other damn country they can. Americans don't want to control the whole world. Since we are a world power EVERYONE whines at us to help them. If we just sit around we are cruel for ignoring everyone but if we try to stop something we are still cruel. What the hell. I'm not trying to be mean but the rest of the world knows nothing about Americans. You know what I did today? I went to school, jogged, did my homework, read some, and ate dinner. Does that sound like someone who wants to take over the world to you? No. I just want to live, like everyone else, in peace. I understand that the army's occupation of your country is somewhat alarming...but they are doing what they think they should. And not every American agrees with it anyways. I'm not sure if I do or not personally. All I know is I want to feel safe again, and as long as Saddam is alive and a bunch of madmen have control of governments and weapons...I don't feel safe nor should you or anyone else.

sCoRpiO

02-14-2003, 04:13 AM

Originally posted by ZorBrak
We don't want a war...but some people feel we must have one to stop Iraq. It has to do with Iraq having weapons capable of killing millions of people and wants to use them on innocent people, and probably any other damn country they can. Americans don't want to control the whole world. Since we are a world power EVERYONE whines at us to help them. If we just sit around we are cruel for ignoring everyone but if we try to stop something we are still cruel. What the hell. I'm not trying to be mean but the rest of the world knows nothing about Americans. You know what I did today? I went to school, jogged, did my homework, read some, and ate dinner. Does that sound like someone who wants to take over the world to you? No. I just want to live, like everyone else, in peace. I understand that the army's occupation of your country is somewhat alarming...but they are doing what they think they should. And not every American agrees with it anyways. I'm not sure if I do or not personally. All I know is I want to feel safe again, and as long as Saddam is alive and a bunch of madmen have control of governments and weapons...I don't feel safe nor should you or anyone else.

I do agree with you although I personally dont think that it is fair to us Kuwities......I mean the American government should care at least a little bit about us and our lives...and u said that everyone whines at America so that they help them....but i Dont think America is the "World Power " as u say..(no offence)...but there are also many other strong countries such as china..Russia etc..
But all I want now is to kick Saddam and his Army outta here and have some peace...

sCoRpiO~

ZorBrak

02-14-2003, 04:25 AM

Originally posted by sCoRpiO
I do agree with you although I personally dont think that it is fair to us Kuwities......I mean the American government should care at least a little bit about us and our lives...and u said that everyone whines at America so that they help them....but i Dont think America is the "World Power " as u say..(no offence)...but there are also many other strong countries such as china..Russia etc..
But all I want now is to kick Saddam and his Army outta here and have some peace...

sCoRpiO~

That's okay, I do understand how it is unfair. But I would think it will be likely that the military will provide reparations and assistance to Kuwait and its people if damage occurs. As for America, I said it was "a" world power as I do acknowledge the strength of Russia, China, etc....but I just think conditions of that entire area will improve if we can get tyrants like Saddam outta there. Unfortunately a base of operations has to be set somewhere close to the enemy for this action to occur. Things will most likely improve from this in the end though.

sCoRpiO

02-14-2003, 05:02 AM

Originally posted by ZorBrak
That's okay, I do understand how it is unfair. But I would think it will be likely that the military will provide reparations and assistance to Kuwait and its people if damage occurs. As for America, I said it was "a" world power as I do acknowledge the strength of Russia, China, etc....but I just think conditions of that entire area will improve if we can get tyrants like Saddam outta there. Unfortunately a base of operations has to be set somewhere close to the enemy for this action to occur. Things will most likely improve from this in the end though.

u know what...i dont even think that a war would happen...and if it does..i hope saddam and his army are outta here1

sCoRpiO~

James

02-14-2003, 09:33 AM

Originally posted by DJ Raza

I feel comtempt with them because they're practically insulting our country (which is my country also), and that's ridiclous. Most of them aren't even researching most of what they discuss.

That's hardly fair. We all have different perspectives on the current situation. What you see as proof others don't agree. Intelligent people. This isn't about people being ignorant of the truth. Simply people not agreeing with you - so much do they not agree they feel a little uncomfortable with the current direction the world on a whole is going in.

They can only compromise excuses to express their opinion, such as "I don't like war, and never will" or use facts that don't pertain to anything that logic couldn't pick up on like "Innocent people die in war".
That's not a reason we shouldn't go to war, its simply an excuse.

They don't want to go to war. No one does. You only go to war if you think it's justified. Some people don't and they have as sound reasons to be hesitant as you yourself have for advocating. This isn't a matter of who has the better argument, just appreciate that not everyone holds the same values as you do.

I feel most people are completely avoiding the issue altogether to only express their opinion by either changing the subject, redundantly repeating obvious facts or just being totally close-minded. They act like we should just walk away and "mind our own business" while terror runs rampant over there (even though we declared a "war" on terrorism as a whole), while they insult/threaten us constantly.

They insult and threaten you if you take it personally. Saddam is interested in his own personal agenda he is not interested in insulting you - just in keeping you away from his tiny little empire. As people sound unreasonable to you, you come across the same way to others. It's not a matter of whose right, just simply accepting that we are differ on this and in this case, how do we approach this situation.

I also seriously doubt Americans that say we should "walk away" learned anything from the Sept. 11 attacks. All they learned was what they already know "death is sad" and "murder is wrong"...

Maybe they've learned that losing close ones isn't something they want to do unless it's agreed by all that it's necessary. That sometimes people you love can be more dear than egos and philosophy. Anyone who wants to wait until a decision has been made by all, and not just those who want to decide for everyone is not a coward or someone who wants to turn a blind eye. As I've said before I ask for you to look at these people with a little more empathy. They are Americans. They have reasons to believe what they believe try and understand them rather than reject them.

Do they actually think the government's going to be like "Oh, no, wait... please don't go... we'll change everything to meet everyone's personal needs at all times."?

They don't want to leave, they are making a point. They are making their opinion heard as are you. Isn't that freedom of speech? Should they remain quiet and just follow what their leader says? Surely that's against the foundations of what America stands for?

That's why I say they're more than welcome to leave since they keep claimng they want to. And especially since all they want to do is publically insult our great nation. Good riddance.

A dangerous attitude. Those who don't agree should get out. That's not democracy. Where's the liberty and unity in that?

Well, they're the ones that want to leave, and if they do, they are no longer citizens. So then their "voice" would no longer be "relevant", which is fine by me.

So as I said, they are free to leave.

Of course they are - that way you have no opposition to what you believe. Trust me DJ, with respect, I advocate that it's not a philosophy you'd wish to follow - it can lead to an ideology which simply rejects those who don't follow what you want them to. That becomes an ideal far flung from democracy.

Peace, sir.

Joe Wagner

02-14-2003, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by sCoRpiO
I do agree with you although I personally dont think that it is fair to us Kuwities......I mean the American government should care at least a little bit about us and our lives...and u said that everyone whines at America so that they help them....but i Dont think America is the "World Power " as u say..(no offence)...but there are also many other strong countries such as china..Russia etc..
But all I want now is to kick Saddam and his Army outta here and have some peace...

sCoRpiO~

The entire reason that we still have troops in Kuwait was to protect your country for the threats of Iraq. The reason that we got involved in the Persian Gulf War in the first place was to liberate your country for the grip of Saddam Hussein. Their were two reasons that we stayed - to ensure that Saddam followed the cease fire resolutions of the UN and from the insitance of your government to have a force that would be able to defend Kuwait if Iraq attempted to attack again. The US Military is not preventing your citizens from leaving your country and your country will likely reap the rewards of removing the oppressive Iraqi regime.

The US cares about the citizens of Kuwait - otherwise we wouldn't be there in the first place.

-Joe!

DJ Raza

02-14-2003, 02:50 PM

That's hardly fair. We all have different perspectives on the current situation. What you see as proof others don't agree. Intelligent people. This isn't about people being ignorant of the truth. Simply people not agreeing with you - so much do they not agree they feel a little uncomfortable with the current direction the world on a whole is going in.

Its not about being ignorant of the truth?

Hasn't that been what I've been debating so far?

See? You're actually proving my point because you're trying to "change the subject" by "changing perspective". You want me to see it from their point of view. When really, I think you just want me to feel sympathy for everyone regardless of their ignorance on the matter.

Sorry, I don't correct someone/slash debate with them because I'm this nice, lovable, ultra-sympathizing guy that loves everybody. I don't tolerate ignorance. Point blank. Anyone willing to say they are ready to leave the country, is too far beyond me to accept as a "typical citizen". I actually consider myself being nice on the matter. I'd probably stone these people if I saw them in real life. I practically see this as treason.

That's my perspective... and guess what... let me go the opposition's route while I'm at it... "That's my decision SJJ, you can't change it".

They don't want to go to war. No one does. You only go to war if you think it's justified. Some people don't and they have as sound reasons to be hesitant as you yourself have for advocating. This isn't a matter of who has the better argument, just appreciate that not everyone holds the same values as you do.

No, this is a matter of "good and evil", not who has a better argument. Everytime someone says "we should wait" or "we shouldn't go to war ever" or "let's just walk away", they're actually sympathizing for "evil". I have not an ounce of respect for these people as an American. I can only wish they could be deported.

You can change perpectives to look at it from the "evil" standpoint or say its all a "grey" area all day. You're just further avoiding the situation. Proving my point once again.

Saddam *IS* that crazy and vicious kind of "evil". He murder's his own people and possibly wants to conduct some form of genocide. He's almost like the next Hitler, and it amazes and astounds me that people just want to ignore him. People want us to just stay idle and let him create more weapons.

They insult and threaten you if you take it personally. Saddam is interested in his own personal agenda he is not interested in insulting you - just in keeping you away from his tiny little empire. As people sound unreasonable to you, you come across the same way to others. It's not a matter of whose right, just simply accepting that we are differ on this and in this case, how do we approach this situation.

Thank you for sympathizing for "evil", but sorry... when Saddam threatens my country with weapons of mass destruction, I take it seriously. I'm not living in Xanadu or something... I'm living in America. I am not oblivious, and never will be.

Maybe they've learned that losing close ones isn't something they want to do unless it's agreed by all that it's necessary. That sometimes people you love can be more dear than egos and philosophy. Anyone who wants to wait until a decision has been made by all, and not just those who want to decide for everyone is not a coward or someone who wants to turn a blind eye. As I've said before I ask for you to look at these people with a little more empathy. They are Americans. They have reasons to believe what they believe try and understand them rather than reject them.

Sorry, I have no empathy for people that insult my country. Just like I don't have empathy for cowards. That's my perspective.

And wait, you said "Anyone who wants to wait until a decision has been made by all"?

Come on SJJ... that's highly illogical. When has "Everyone" (meaning every single citizen of the Untied States, which is well over 200 million people) agreed on something?

They don't want to leave, they are making a point. They are making their opinion heard as are you. Isn't that freedom of speech? Should they remain quiet and just follow what their leader says? Surely that's against the foundations of what America stands for?

Freedom of Speech? Yes.

But doesn't that also mean I have the Freedom of Speech to say I want their existence irraticated from my country due to extreme levels of ignorance and possibly treason?

It does, but I don't do it unless I'm inclined to (i.e. expressing to me and the public that they want to leave, someone asking me to somehow understand them, etc.).

Also, they're the ones that said they want to leave. I'm just trying to help them leave, because I no longer find them of intelligent value to this society because they're being very irrational and ignorant at a time when the country needs as much respect from its citizens as possible. If they're willing to go, that just makes me that much more content.

And incase they don't actually want to leave, doesn't that make them liars then?

You want me to sympathize for liars, then?

Sorry, that isn't happening either.

A dangerous attitude. Those who don't agree should get out. That's not democracy. Where's the liberty and unity in that?

Hey, they volunteered. Its a win/win situation. Ignorant people leave at their own will, and then America has less cowards and ignorant people in it because of it. This is fine by me.

Of course they are - that way you have no opposition to what you believe. Trust me DJ, with respect, I advocate that it's not a philosophy you'd wish to follow - it can lead to an ideology which simply rejects those who don't follow what you want them to. That becomes an ideal far flung from democracy.

SJJ, they said they want to leave. I'm just saying I'm happy they're going. I find them of no value to this society any longer after expressing views like that. The only "anti-Americans" I ever see are people like this that constantly say "America's government does whatever the hell it wants" or "I'm leaving". Those are truely "anti-Americans" to me.

Elven Moon

02-14-2003, 03:08 PM

Day in and day out on the news lately I'm hearing about how much people hate us. And it's REALLY starting to wear me down a little, even making me depressed at times :( What did I EVER do to them? Did I run up to some frenchman's house, curse his children and steal his cheese supply? No! Did I yank some German's hair and spit in their faces? No! So why do I feel like some piece of vermin even though I have no say in how my Government is handling things right now or because I just happen to have been born here? I have never, save for Canada many years ago, been outside this country, so it's not like I've been walking around acting like some jerk to them.

Please don't flame me, I am only honestly stating how I feel about the whole thing.

Lucky Bob

02-14-2003, 03:25 PM

James

02-14-2003, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by Elven Moon
Day in and day out on the news lately I'm hearing about how much people hate us. And it's REALLY starting to wear me down a little, even making me depressed at times :( What did I EVER do to them? Did I run up to some frenchman's house, curse his children and steal his cheese supply? No! Did I yank some German's hair and spit in their faces? No! So why do I feel like some piece of vermin even though I have no say in how my Government is handling things right now or because I just happen to have been born here? I have never, save for Canada many years ago, been outside this country, so it's not like I've been walking around acting like some jerk to them.

Please don't flame me, I am only honestly stating how I feel about the whole thing.

There is nothing personal from any of these countries, it's as simple as that. These are rational countries whose people don't favour yet going to war - although the outlook appears to be if they would be willing if they felt that was absoloutely no co-operation from Iraq. It's as simple as that.

No one hates the American people, please understand that. Resentment like this bears hatred and it's all on a false premise. No one here outside America has said they hate America or it's people. No one at all. Please, read some of the posts, get the vibe. The only ones who feel this hatred are yourselves. It's not there.

It's merely a disagreement on opinion.

Lucky Bob

02-14-2003, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by SJJ
There is nothing personal from any of these countries, it's as simple as that. These are rational countries whose people don't favour yet going to war - although the outlook appears to be if they would be willing if they felt that was absoloutely no co-operation from Iraq. It's as simple as that.

No one hates the American people, please understand that. Resentment like this bears hatred and it's all on a false premise. No one here outside America has said they hate America or it's people. No one at all. Please, read some of the posts, get the vibe. The only ones who feel this hatred are yourselves. It's not there.

It's merely a disagreement on opinion.

Not in every case. I live in Belgium, and I've been the victim of American hatred on many an occasion. People bawling me out and shunning me for no other reason than the fact I'm an American. (Even before and during 9/11)

But hey, I don't let it get to me. There are others who are quite nice, and I focus on those. The others are jerks, anyway.

James

02-14-2003, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by DJ Raza
Its not about being ignorant of the truth?

The truth as I've said repeatly, is subject to opinion. I don't deride your interpretation of the truth, please consider the option that people see a different viewpoint. Intelligent people, not ignorant ones. Many in fact, who are far more clued up on the subject that you or I.

See? You're actually proving my point because you're trying to "change the subject" by "changing perspective". You want me to see it from their point of view. When really, I think you just want me to feel sympathy for everyone regardless of their ignorance on the matter.

Not ignorance, just a different point of view. It's not asking you to agree with them, just understand that it's a topic which creates d
different viewpoints.

Sorry, I don't correct someone/slash debate with them because I'm this nice, lovable, ultra-sympathizing guy that loves everybody. I don't tolerate ignorance. Point blank. Anyone willing to say they are ready to leave the country, is too far beyond me to accept as a "typical citizen". I actually consider myself being nice on the matter. I'd probably stone these people if I saw them in real life. I practically see this as treason.

Ditto. You won't tolerate ignorance - or as it could be called - difference of opinion. That's what I refer to as freedom of speech. You'd stone them? DJ, please, this is not a good argument to have and it's one that has created many a dictatorship. Please reconsider this viewpoint. :)

That's my perspective... and guess what... let me go the opposition's route while I'm at it... "That's my decision SJJ, you can't change it".

Not asking you to change it. I'm asking you to understand, as I do, that we all have different opinions on this topic. That's all I ask. And that these people, who are intelligent - as I consider myself - see a different perspective. I see your argument on this affair and I understand you reasons and while I don't totally agree with them, I respect the fact and understand what lead you to them.

You can change perpectives to look at it from the "evil" standpoint or say its all a "grey" area all day. You're just further avoiding the situation. Proving my point once again.

There is a bigger picture. There is more than one issue and there is a future unity and understanding to consider. These make things a great deal less than black and white. We have to consider the future as well as the present.

Thank you for sympathizing for "evil", but sorry... when Saddam threatens my country with weapons of mass destruction, I take it seriously. I'm not living in Xanadu or something... I'm living in America. I am not oblivious, and never will be.

Saddam hasn't threatened your country.

And wait, you said "Anyone who wants to wait until a decision has been made by all"?

Come on SJJ... that's highly illogical. When has "Everyone" (meaning every single citizen of the Untied States, which is well over 200 million people) agreed on something?

I was speaking of majorities as with any electorate and I was speaking of the international community.

But doesn't that also mean I have the Freedom of Speech to say I want their existence irraticated from my country due to extreme levels of ignorance and possibly treason?
It does, but I don't do it unless I'm inclined to (i.e. expressing to me and the public that they want to leave, someone asking me to somehow understand them, etc.).

It's not ignorance. It's opinion, that's why it's freedom of speech.

Also, they're the ones that said they want to leave. I'm just trying to help them leave, because I no longer find them of intelligent value to this society because they're being very irrational and ignorant at a time when the country needs as much respect from its citizens as possible. If they're willing to go, that just makes me that much more content.

They did, I'm saying perhaps it's worth trying to understand why they would say so. Dig a little and find out it's beyond ignorance as you claim and way beyond cowardice.

You want me to sympathize for liars, then?

I want you to empathise and understand people have choice and differences in intellectual opinon which doesn't belittle their importance.

James

02-14-2003, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by luckybob1985
Not in every case. I live in Belgium, and I've been the victim of American hatred on many an occasion. People bawling me out and shunning me for no other reason than the fact I'm an American. (Even before and during 9/11)

But hey, I don't let it get to me. There are others who are quite nice, and I focus on those. The others are jerks, anyway.

People are people. Some are idiots, some aren't. A horrible fact of life. Could stance to take LB. Don't let it get to you.

Outlander00

02-14-2003, 05:51 PM

Those who have said they want to leave have every right to do so without ridicule or attack... It is their right under the Consitution of the United States. They may not mean it, but they have a right to do say it.

This country was ultimately created by those who escaped persecution... and now, more than 200 years later, we have come full circle, persecuting our own people because they do not believe in an invasion of a country without proper proceedure and blessings from the international community. The reactions typed by certain individuals in this thread only reflects why the United States is not well received. This issue has now gone beyond debate which is not civilized amongst those within the boards' community.

There has always been a certain amount of envy amongst the international community of the United States and what we stand for. However, now we are faced with an equal destructive opinion coming from our own government... Arrogance. How do you expect anyone to listen to our cause when your nations leader publically states that those representing the Security council are "without a backbone"? That you scare your own citizens into submission by publically announcing, with fanfare by the news outlets, that we may have a terrorist attack and to be cautious... yet live your life?

I believe in the ideals of our forefathers and will fight to defend them to the very end, by words or by actions. I respect the opinons of those who feel offended that their own countrymen want to leave just like I respect those who want to leave because they feel our government is not doing all that it can for interest of the people of this country. But when you attack others because you feel that way, then we become no better than those individuals who opress people and terrorize to gain control.

"I may not agree with your ideals, but I will give my life to defend them" - Voltaire

Patrick Bateman

02-14-2003, 05:56 PM

I'd probably stone these people if I saw them in real life. I practically see this as treason.
Let me get this straight. You'd stone fellow Americans just because they don't follow Bush and his trigger-happy ideals like a bunch of mindless drones? Then let the stones fly, because I don't support it one damn bit. But let it be known, I tend to throw them right back.

DJ Raza

02-14-2003, 06:17 PM

Let me get this straight. You'd stone fellow Americans just because they don't follow Bush and his trigger-happy ideals like a bunch of mindless drones? Then let the stones fly, because I don't support it one damn bit. But let it be known, I tend to throw them right back.

First of all, notice the "probably".

Second, of all when did I say everyone should follow Bush like "mindless drones"?

I just can't stand ignorant people, Americans who can sympathize for countries that want us dead, Americans that constantly complain about the current government or Americans that quickly declare they are "leaving".

You say you don't support him... so... are you leaving then?

If you aren't, then so what, I could care less. Just one more person who blindly thinks Republicans are "wrong" or just another person that doesn't like President Bush.

But... if you want to whine and moan about leaving, then insult the country and government, and possibly whine about how much other countries have it better, then just go. Please, leave as soon as possible... since I'd assume you are either insane or a coward.

Patrick Bateman

02-14-2003, 06:28 PM

DJ Raza

02-14-2003, 06:31 PM

The truth as I've said repeatly, is subject to opinion. I don't deride your interpretation of the truth, please consider the option that people see a different viewpoint. Intelligent people, not ignorant ones. Many in fact, who are far more clued up on the subject that you or I.

"The truth as I've said repeatly, is subject to opinion"?

How does that make one bit of sense?

That is completely illogical.

There is a bigger picture. There is more than one issue and there is a future unity and understanding to consider. These make things a great deal less than black and white. We have to consider the future as well as the present.

Hello? What part of "weapons of mass destruction" do you people not happen to understand?

If we just let him keep making them, there might not be a "future".

Saddam hasn't threatened your country.

He has publically threatened our country many many times over the past two decades. Do some research on America or Iraq for the past 20 years and you'll see that he has threatened us.

It's not ignorance. It's opinion, that's why it's freedom of speech.

Then in my opinion, they should be deported immediately.

They did, I'm saying perhaps it's worth trying to understand why they would say so. Dig a little and find out it's beyond ignorance as you claim and way beyond cowardice.

Fine...

Would anyone like to tell me why they'd like to leave without refferring to either "I'm scared", "war kills innocent people" or "I don't like our current government"?

I want you to empathise and understand people have choice and differences in intellectual opinon which doesn't belittle their importance.

They also have the physical choice to leave, which they speak of so much. So if they actually want to leave, so be it and good riddance.

Outlander00

02-14-2003, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by DJ Raza
First of all, notice the "probably".

Second, of all when did I say everyone should follow Bush like "mindless drones"?

I just can't stand ignorant people, Americans who can sympathize for countries that want us dead, Americans that constantly complain about the current government or Americans that quickly declare they are "leaving".

You say you don't support him... so... are you leaving then?

If you aren't, then so what, I could care less. Just one more person who blindly thinks Republicans are "wrong" or just another person that doesn't like President Bush.

But... if you want to whine and moan about leaving, then insult the country and government, and possibly whine about how much other countries have it better, then just go. Please, leave as soon as possible... since I'd assume you are either insane or a coward.

It is a sad day indeed that blind hatred and ignorance can impare judgement of individuals when it comes to cooth. This kind of opinion makes me not proud to be an American... That we can make such blatant statements with disregard to others beleifs, opinions and even the document we all hold dear.

I suggest that this thread be closed due to the direction it is taking... Like I said in my previous post, it has gone beyond debate.

DJ Raza

02-14-2003, 06:39 PM

I don't sympathise with the people in these countries who do want to terrorize us. I have sympathy for all the innocents being drug into this. By that I mean the average joe, people like myself, who have done nothing to these people. There are people in these countries who would never want to harm me as well.

What about all the people over there that would like to see you (yes, "you", the average "American Joe") die?

They've felt that way for years. They didn't just all of a sudden starting hating Americans as of lately.

From my viewpoint, Bush and his people are what's making us a marked target. Because they won't stay out of affairs that are none of their business.

How is this NOT our affair?

They want to see us die and threaten us. All of us. Not just President Bush and Colin Powell, but you, me, your family, my family. Every single American. Dead.

Same for Iraq. Sadaam has his little personal vendetta that he wants to carry out, and he's dragging innocents from his country (yes, there are some innocent people in Iraq) into the same situation. It just looks like all of this could be avoided if leaders would work on fixing the problems that already exist here, instead of starting more that have the potential to be seriously fatal.

We didn't start this, he did. We're the ones that plan on finishing it though, and finishing it for a long time. We've let Saddam get by with too much already. We can't just keep letting him be a threat to human existence.

ROBBOT

02-14-2003, 06:39 PM

Hey, I am not American, and I don't think being American, per se, sucks, not at all....
There are a lot of stereotypes and negative stuff people say about other countrie's people. But it's clear, from the average European's point of view, that the average Americans have their own opinions, some support war, others condemn it....
I personally think it's better to get Bin Laden than to start this war.

ROBBOT

02-14-2003, 06:47 PM

but you, me, your family, my family. Every single American. Dead.
Always remember this is the way Bin Laden speaks. A fanatic and a terrorist like that should be judged for his crimes. It's easy for him to talk about holy wars, massive killings and crap like that.... I loathe that mentality.

James

02-14-2003, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by DJ Raza
"The truth as I've said repeatly, is subject to opinion"?

How does that make one bit of sense?

That is completely illogical.

Your truth is someone elses falsehood. It is our unique perspective which guides us to decide what is true and what is false. Is there a universal truth? Maybe, but in cases of opinion, the only truth lies in the eye of the beholder.

Hello? What part of "weapons of mass destruction" do you people not happen to understand?

Please don't try and patronise me sir. I know you don't agree that's fine, and healthy too - especially for debate.

I and many others - millions across the world and in your own country don't feel the weapons he has can definately legitimise
a strike. There are countries with far great weapons than he has. His stock is tiny, even if it exists. You may not like my opinion, but don't belittle it. I don't want to see us have to take Outlander's suggestion and close the thread.

If we just let him keep making them, there might not be a "future".

Saddam has no power or interest at the moment in taking anyone outside the middle east on. If you are looking to take down terrorism, we should perhaps look at more internal methods to break the down the organisation using more covert operatives. I and many others don't think Iraq is a major issue on trying to fight terrorism.

He has publically threatened our country many many times over the past two decades. Do some research on America or Iraq for the past 20 years and you'll see that he has threatened us.

Again, do not patronize me. He has offered no legitimate threat to the US. The government know this otherwise the US would have taken him down long ago. He is bluster and pride. He has neither the capacity or support to attack the US and he knows the implications.

Then in my opinion, they should be deported immediately.
Fine...

Would anyone like to tell me why they'd like to leave without refferring to either "I'm scared", "war kills innocent people" or "I don't like our current government"?

I'll let some of them do that. Personally I don't think your attitude is making them anymore comfortable.

Everyone, please keep this friendly. I know there has been no out right jabs at any specific members but the tone of some of the posts is becoming very clear and is causing offense. In the light of no CTZ mods being about, and as much as I hate stepping on other peoples boards, I will close this thread if we can't keep it as a debate rather than a blasting of peoples different opinions.

Thank you for you co-operation.

Supreme

02-14-2003, 07:59 PM

As far as this thread being closed, that should have been done from the beginning. Not only closed, but deleted. It's one thing to cry "Freedom of Speech" or "Take this with a grain of salt", but this thread had flame-bait written all over it.

You want to be worried about where this thread is going (possibly racism/facism or being insulting?), but the very title and subject is horribly insulting. Talking about how stupid Americans are and supposedly everyone hates us. It is a moot point if he declares how proud he is or that he even is an American, his statements to the contrary negate all of that.

If you're going to allow these types of posts, it would only be fair to allow posts like "Iraqis are murderers" or "I hate being French". One final note is that we have no way of knowing the nationality of the poster, so you cannot necessarily say "He's only talking about himself. What harm is that?"
I've seen far too many people try to defend their inflammatory posts with "real-life" stories (which may or may not be true):
-"My family was murdered, that's why I support the death penalty"
-"My sister was raped, so I know how bad it is!"
- "My mother was abducted by an Internet stalker."

...and so forth (for example)

basically, this is a lose-lose situation. The original thread is bad, and any replies are going to be equally as bad. This thread is not a very debate-worthy topic. :(

James

02-14-2003, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by Supreme
As far as this thread being closed, that should have been done from the beginning. Not only closed, but deleted. It's one thing to cry "Freedom of Speech" or "Take this with a grain of salt", but this thread had flame-bait written all over it.

You want to be worried about where this thread is going (possibly racism/facism or being insulting?), but the very title and subject is horribly insulting. Talking about how stupid Americans are and supposedly everyone hates us. It is a moot point if he declares how proud he is or that he even is an American, his statements to the contrary negate all of that.

If you're going to allow these types of posts, it would only be fair to allow posts like "Iraqis are murderers" or "I hate being French". One final note is that we have no way of knowing the nationality of the poster, so you cannot necessarily say "He's only talking about himself. What harm is that?"
I've seen far too many people try to defend their inflammatory posts with "real-life" stories (which may or may not be true):
-"My family was murdered, that's why I support the death penalty"
-"My sister was raped, so I know how bad it is!"
- "My mother was abducted by an Internet stalker."

...and so forth (for example)

basically, this is a lose-lose situation. The original thread is bad, and any replies are going to be equally as bad. This thread is not a very debate-worthy topic. :(

It isn't debate worthy unless you read the thread in it's entireity.

This was a thread brought up by an American - not an outsider to the nation upon how she feels her country is perceived, not upon what she feels her people are. All your points are therefore irrelevant I'm afraid.

I am closing this thread. Simply because if people don't read the contents then it does indeed become flamebait and I can therefore see no good upon leaving it open. I've watched it for a few hours and unfortunately with there being no CTZ mods present so I hope they won't object if I close this down now.

No one was implying any of the points that you have said they were. People were talking about how they feel. The inferences you placed in this final post were nothing to do with what has been debated. I'm sure the original member would be shocked to see what you've suggested.

Tolerance people, this is a hot subject and I know it's something that touches peoples very core. I sympathise - whatever side of this debate you stand on. Please just don't turn on each other over this issue. You all want the same thing - as do I - peace in whatever form it comes.