Cutting the OPs for time? Suuuure. [Archive]

livingfruitvirus

12-18-2002, 05:18 PM

Yes, most of you are peeved because the OPs are gone from ASA. Of course you all know that Cowboy Bebop airs with the whole package intact (OP, eyecatchers, ED). So after timing episodes of Bebop, it seems the average episode goes BEYOND 24 MINUTES!!

So, there must be something else going on here. There has to be a reason why Inuyasha's OP gets cut. Why Bebop and Yu Yu Hakusho are exempt from the rule. Maybe the "Japanese language" theory is correct? Or maybe CN didn't think Inuyasha's OP was a good representation and drew people away from the show?

Killtacular

12-18-2002, 05:19 PM

I'd like to believe it's the interpretation one. Inuyasha's OP sucks, and doesn't really show people what the TV show is about at all. Even DBZ's American "Rock the Dragon" OP does a better job.

The second OP to Inuyasha is admittedly a lot better, though.

sl4

12-18-2002, 05:21 PM

Isn't it because Bebop and YYH's openings are on the same tape as the episode itself, so it would cost them money to have them cut?

Masamune2052

12-18-2002, 05:27 PM

Hah, we all knew it! Good job LFV.

I'll kind of go with you on what you said about 'Change The World', Matt. It didnt really show what the series was about, but the second OP does. The second ending is quite nice though, showing scene's of the episode. The only problem I have with it is that it just has too much Sesshomaru.

Killtacular

12-18-2002, 05:28 PM

Well, you'll definitely see the second opening, starting on December 28th.

KingKoopa

12-18-2002, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by superloud4
Isn't it because Bebop and YYH's openings are on the same tape as the episode itself, so it would cost them money to have them cut? I believe this theory. I have a nasty feeling that all OPs from this point on will be cut, including Lupin, Reign, new Yu Yu, everything.

Masamune2052

12-18-2002, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by KingKoopa
I have a nasty feeling that all OPs from this point on will be cut, including Lupin, Reign, new Yu Yu, everything.
Is there no God?!?!?!?!

KingKoopa

12-18-2002, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by Masamune2052
Is there no God?!?!?!?! He just likes to make anime fans suffer. He hates American animation fans more, though. Don't worry, it's not personal, he just watches FOX more than anything. Maybe Futurama will keep it's OP.

NewLib

12-18-2002, 05:45 PM

LHV, I think it is because IY opener was turning people off of the show.

Killtacular

12-18-2002, 05:49 PM

Why would CN cut the Futurama OP? That doesn't make any sense. Futurama is American anyway, so it wouldn't be discriminated against.

Artemis

12-18-2002, 05:50 PM

Inuyasha's OP doesn't represent the show and borderline sucks, that's true. I hope it ain't the "Japanese language" theory, but if that is the case then Lupin and Trigun would keep their OP since those are instrumental.

However, the ED themes for just about every anime contains japanese language and those stay.

Futurama will keep it's OP because it's very short.

Off-topic, but I hope new acquisitions have their ED themes subtitled just like Bebop.

KingKoopa

12-18-2002, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by Matt Wilson
Why would CN cut the Futurama OP? That doesn't make any sense. Futurama is American anyway, so it wouldn't be discriminated against. Last time I kid around without a :rolleyes:...

Couldn't you tell by the rest of my post I wasn't serious?

ClockStomper

12-18-2002, 06:36 PM

Off-topic, but I hope new acquisitions have their ED themes subtitled just like Bebop.

It depends on the company. Bandai Entertainment does do subtitles (I assume from the Bebop and Escaflowne DVDs I own) but Viz dosen't do it (subtitles are a "feature" on their discs, they don't come attatched on the opening.)

livingfruitvirus

12-18-2002, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by ClockStomper
It depends on the company. Bandai Entertainment does do subtitles (I assume from the Bebop and Escaflowne DVDs I own) but Viz dosen't do it (subtitles are a "feature" on their discs, they don't come attatched on the opening.)

Actually on the Inuyasha DVDs, the songs aren't subtitled. Quite a kick in the nuts huh?

ClockStomper

12-18-2002, 06:57 PM

Actually on the Inuyasha DVDs, the songs aren't subtitled. Quite a kick in the nuts huh?

Indeed, yet another nail in the "wait for the boxed set" coffin.

livingfruitvirus

12-18-2002, 07:06 PM

Originally posted by ClockStomper
Indeed, yet another nail in the "wait for the boxed set" coffin.

Why? Like they'll have subs for the songs.

Kaiser0120

12-18-2002, 07:21 PM

He meant that he won't waste time buying the lame DVDs one by one and will just get the set. It'll be more cost efficiant, anyway.

And yes, the DVDs are lame. How many episodes are on them again? 2-3? That's worse than Funimation. -.-

William C. Maune

12-18-2002, 07:34 PM

[indent]The openings could still be being cut for time. They may have had to free up X amount of time and depending on how long X is, they may not have needed to cut all the intros. Thus, they saved the best intros. I don't know about YYH, but I think most would agree that CB's intro is probably the best on the block.

KingKoopa

12-18-2002, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by William C. Maune
_____The openings could still be being cut for time. They may have had to free up X amount of time and depending on how long X is, they may not have needed to cut all the intros. Thus, they saved the best intros. I don't know about YYH, but I think most would agree that CB's intro is probably the best on the block. So it was just a coincidence that the two OPs they decided to save were attached to the tapes, while the ones they cut were played seperately? I doubt it. They stopped playing the original OP for everything that was on a different tape. While Bebop's is definately the best intro on AS, it's intro and YYH's intro weren't cut not because they were better, but because they didn't feel like taking the extra trouble. Because OLS's intro was cut, I would seriously be surprised if we saw another original intro ever air on Adult Swim, because they really had no excuse to cut it. It fit 22 minutes after edits and fit the show well enough.

Killtacular

12-18-2002, 07:45 PM

The openings could still be being cut for time. They may have had to free up X amount of time and depending on how long X is, they may not have needed to cut all the intros.

But what LFV is saying is that Cowboy Bebop goes past X amount of time, just as much as Inuyasha does.

Killtacular

12-18-2002, 07:47 PM

So it was just a coincidence that the two OPs they decided to save were attached to the tapes, while the ones they cut were played seperately? I doubt it. They stopped playing the original OP for everything that was on a different tape. While Bebop's is definately the best intro on AS, it's intro and YYH's intro weren't cut not because they were better, but because they didn't feel like taking the extra trouble. Because OLS's intro was cut, I would seriously be surprised if we saw another original intro ever air on Adult Swim, because they really had no excuse to cut it. It fit 22 minutes after edits and fit the show well enough.

I dunno. I think in comparison the "Japanese language" theory holds up a little more than that.

William C. Maune

12-18-2002, 07:51 PM

[indent]Yeah, but say each of the 6 shows goes over by 2 minutes, that's 12 minutes, but for some reason they only needed to make up 8 minutes (they negotiated with the network, cut some time for promos, etc, etc.) Then they would be left with 4 minutes they wouldn't have to make up by cutting stuff, in this case they were able to save 2 openings. Toonami has a lot of videos, game reviews, etc. that run during the block, ASA doesn't seem to have nearly as much "promo" type stuff.

KingKoopa

12-18-2002, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by Matt Wilson
I dunno. I think in comparison the "Japanese language" theory holds up a little more than that. Possibly, but think about it. Every intro that was cut was played seperately from the original episode. I have a feeling that it may have actually been for time, but it wasn't so important to them that they'd actually REMOVE the OPs from episodes that had them built in. We'll know for sure if it's that or the Japanese language theory when new YYH airs, or possibly Lupin if its intro is instrumental (so sue me if I don't know).

Killtacular

12-18-2002, 09:33 PM

Yeah, but say each of the 6 shows goes over by 2 minutes, that's 12 minutes, but for some reason they only needed to make up 8 minutes (they negotiated with the network, cut some time for promos, etc, etc.) Then they would be left with 4 minutes they wouldn't have to make up by cutting stuff, in this case they were able to save 2 openings.

That sounds highly improbable.

Spike&Gene3886

12-18-2002, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by Matt Wilson
But what LFV is saying is that Cowboy Bebop goes past X amount of time, just as much as Inuyasha does.

Yes, but you do know that CB is "more equal" than the other shows, right? (Pardon the George Orwell/Animal Farm reference)

:brak:

talibancity

12-18-2002, 10:51 PM

What Orwell reference? Anyhoo, I thought they didn't cut CB and YYH's OP's because people would riot if they did. Or at least for Bebop, but the YuYu was already edited for time, the original is I think over 1 1/2 minutes, so is the ED. But heads would roll if the already edited Bebop intro was cut. I agree with whoever said that they need to screw Toonami's promos, plug Toonami when someone who cares is watching.

Sir Gatts

12-18-2002, 11:18 PM

Ever ponder that CN may not be able to cut the openers? Think Neon Genesis Evangelion.

livingfruitvirus

12-18-2002, 11:47 PM

Originally posted by talibancity
What Orwell reference? Anyhoo, I thought they didn't cut CB and YYH's OP's because people would riot if they did. Or at least for Bebop, but the YuYu was already edited for time, the original is I think over 1 1/2 minutes, so is the ED. But heads would roll if the already edited Bebop intro was cut. I agree with whoever said that they need to screw Toonami's promos, plug Toonami when someone who cares is watching.

YYH is not edited for time (see my lists). The ED is shortened however by, I think 30 seconds.

Dogasu

12-19-2002, 12:15 AM

Yes, but you do know that CB is "more equal" than the other shows, right? (Pardon the George Orwell/Animal Farm reference)

What Orwell reference?

From Animal Farm:

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

Man, I loved that book :D

I agree with whoever said that they need to screw Toonami's promos, plug Toonami when someone who cares is watching.

I know, right? I mean, don't these self-promotions cost the network advertising time (and money) anyway? Do we really need 30 seconds taken from Adult Swim during every half-hour to tell us when DBZ reruns are on, or when we can catch new episodes of He-Man?

Inuyasha's OP sucks, and doesn't really show people what the TV show is about at all.

And the current Toonami-style intro does?

But I really don't agree with the whole "Inu-Yasha's opening sucked, it needed to be cut" rationale. Maybe you don't like it, but unless CN has gotten calls from fans demanding the opening be cut, why should we believe that they removed the opening because it was "turning people away from the show"? Different people have different opinions, and there ARE people who like the Inu-Yasha OP. If they cut one show's opening, they should cut them all, just for consistency's sake.

And really, if you don't like it, you can always leave the room for the minute or however-long-it-is that it lasts. If we still had the opening, then the commercials that interrupted the beginning of last week's Inu-Yasha (the 11:30 episode, #16 I think) would have only interrupted the OP, not actual episode footage. And wouldn't that have been more desirable?

Killtacular

12-19-2002, 12:28 AM

Cyporiean

12-19-2002, 01:25 AM

if I were to base the shows I watch soley on the Intro, I would have stopped watching Yu Yu Hakusho along time ago. Smile Bomb is a crappy song made worse in English.

At least Change the World was good, and if Viz Really felt like it, they could have easily gotten an English Version of it and My Will from Italy or had the same people who redo the Ranma songs do it. But Viz released there isn't a point.. its just an Opening.. if you don't like it.. mute it or skip past it.

jeffrey 228

12-19-2002, 04:27 AM

So, there must be something else going on here. There has to be a reason why Inuyasha's OP gets cut. Why Bebop and Yu Yu Hakusho are exempt from the rule. Maybe the "Japanese language" theory is correct? Or maybe CN didn't think Inuyasha's OP was a good representation and drew people away from the show?

Well I can only give you one answer, and that is the Japanses opening is the reason CN is not allowing it, seems like.

talibancity

12-19-2002, 10:29 AM

Hey, I love the Inu Yasha OP. It's awesome, and the music for the OP is excellent (all the music is good). I don't like the other OPs that much, or at least not as much as Change The World.

saladdays

12-19-2002, 11:00 AM

Off-topic, but I hope new acquisitions have their ED themes subtitled just like Bebop.

Yeah, in alternating English and Japanese. :D

Nexus810

12-19-2002, 03:46 PM

Yeah, in alternating English and Japanese.

hah like that would ever happen one cna wish......

Yea I would have to agree whats being said here simply because the Japanese remains in the ending theme songs.......

Also cool on someone who actually reads...especially a beast like George Orwell...1984 of course is better... heh

oh btw this is my 100th post yay :()

EscaflownePilot

12-19-2002, 04:06 PM

Conan-san

12-19-2002, 04:43 PM

Originally posted by Sir Gatts
Ever ponder that CN may not be able to cut the openers? Think Neon Genesis Evangelion.

Yeah, I could see how Asuka, Rei and Mesato's Siloeted parts of the op could cause problems...

Dogasu

12-19-2002, 04:54 PM

Maybe you don't like it, but unless CN has gotten calls from fans demanding the opening be cut, why should we believe that they removed the opening because it was "turning people away from the show"?

It's ratings that determine the decisions CN makes, not "fan reaction."

So "ratings" killed the Inu-Yasha OP? That's nonsense.

Ratings aren't the only thing that determine the decisions networks make. Sure, it's a huge factor, but it's not the only one. For example, Toonami used to air commercials for WWF action figures. But some angry parents made a few phone calls, and now you'll notice that Toonami hasn't aired any in a long time. Nickelodeon, back when they were airing Ren & Stimpy, would go back and censor things after an episode would air whenever they got phonecalls about it--that's why the Sven episode had the last few minutes cut out (when Ren's issuing various threats to Stimpy and Sven). The network said that all it takes is a phonecall or two to get them to make any type of change. It doesn't take a huge army of well-organized parents to affect a network--it just takes one or two.

I'm not trying to say that angry parents caused the OP from Inu-Yasha to be cut, I'm just saying that ratings aren't the only factors that could affect the decisions a network makes. The time issue could indeed be the real reason why "Change the World" hasn't been heard in a few months. But for all we know, someone at CN just didn't like the OP (as a number of you do) and decided to trash it, hiding behind the "time" reason. Wasn't "Rejected" rejected because one of the higher-ups just didn't "get" it? Who says the same couldn't happen with "Change the World"? Or maybe there isn't even a reason at all--they might not feel like airing it, plain and simple. Every decision the network makes isn't, by nature, a well thought-out and calculated one.

However, I can say this--it probably wasn't because of cultural reasons. It wouldn't make sense for them to start removing Japanese songs now after they've played about two dozen Japanese songs on the network. CN is one of the few channels that DOESN'T edit things out for cultural reasons, which is one reason so many people want their favorite anime to get on CN as opposed to Kids' WB! or Fox Box.

Also cool on someone who actually reads...especially a beast like George Orwell...1984 of course is better... heh

Yeah, I loved Animal Farm :D . I actually haven't read 1984 (I know! :eek: ) but maybe I can go through it over my Christmas break from school. Because you sure as hell can't get any recreational reading during the regular school year...

Joe Tully

12-19-2002, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by EscaflownePilot

So, basically, you're saying InuYasha wasn't getting the ratings CN wanted so they just said "this opening is corny - let's cut it out cause then we'll gain more viewers"?

Not that I really'd put it past CN...

A better way to put it would be to say that they just had reason to think that people were being turned off by it. The way you're putting it doesn't really make sense--it's not like CN would decide to change the opening to Mike, Lu & Og (or, for an anime example, Pilot Candidate) just because of low ratings.

I'm unsure of what the deal is with this myself. Maybe when the new shows pop up we'll get a better idea. I'm sort of inclined to think it'll just be a mystery unless we somehow get an official explanation, though.

Beat

12-19-2002, 04:59 PM

They do it on a show by show basis. Inu Yasha's OP sucked. (for lack of a better world) MSG's opening was horrifying. Bebop, however, had a cool opening, and Yu Yu has a good one too. In the future, expect every showed to be judged individualy.

sl4

12-19-2002, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by Beatdigga
They do it on a show by show basis. Inu Yasha's OP sucked. (for lack of a better world) MSG's opening was horrifying. Bebop, however, had a cool opening, and Yu Yu has a good one too. In the future, expect every showed to be judged individualy.

That's funny, you talk like you have inside information or something.

Dogasu

12-19-2002, 05:32 PM

Yeah, a lot of people do, don't they?

And if they really did think the Inu-Yasha OP sucked (an OPINION which is highly SUBJECTIVE), then why did they air it like 8 times before cutting it out?

Coollead

12-19-2002, 05:42 PM

8? more like 4. Anyway...InuYasha went over by like 50 minutes. It ended at 4:37 AM for crying out loud. It only makes sense. Who really cares? This fight has gone on long enough...1:30 of an opening, or 1:30 of the show. Hmmm? Which would you rather have?

KingKoopa

12-19-2002, 05:46 PM

Have you guys read a word I've been saying?

You're saying it's a COINCIDENCE that the ONLY two OPs that were retained just so happened to be the only two that were on the same tape as the episode themself? Possibly, but I highly doubt it. I still think that the ONLY reason Bebop and Yu Yu kept their intros was that they're still attached to the episode, because I don't see any other evidence. The Japanese theory is another one, but I'm almost positive that the OPs being seperated from the episode was a vital clue.

Japanese language theory: Possibility, but why would they show them, then suddenly stop? Plus, wouldn't they change the ED themes as well (I don't mean for the Toonami shows, which already had it done, or YYH, which is dubbed and even so shortened anyway. I mean Inuyasha, Japanese, long, and not even subtitled).

"Doesn't fit the show" theory: I really doubt this. If it were up to me, I'd just skip to the second intro and play it for every airing of Inuyasha, because the OP is convieninently on a different tape anyway... Anyway, Gundam 0083's OP fits the series pretty well, and Outlaw Star's fits perfectly. By this theory, they had NO EXCUSE to cut Outlaw Star's OP.

Perhaps it IS the Japanese language theory, but I'm 99% sure that the only ones that were cut were already detatched from the episode is a vital clue. I'm expecting all future series, including new YYH, to have their OPs cut. I hope I'm wrong.

Sir Gatts

12-19-2002, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by KingKoopa
Perhaps it IS the Japanese language theory, but I'm 99% sure that the only ones that were cut were already detatched from the episode is a vital clue. I'm expecting all future series, including new YYH, to have their OPs cut. I hope I'm wrong. Futurama should fall under the 22 minutes theory so I would expect CN to use the original openers. If they don't use the original opener, then it would seem safe to toss out the Japanese language theory completely.

KingKoopa

12-19-2002, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by Sir Gatts
Futurama should fall under the 22 minutes theory so I would expect CN to use the original openers. If they don't use the original opener, then it would seem safe to toss out the Japanese language theory completely. They'll definately air the Futurama OP. The problem seems to be restricted to anime.

EscaflownePilot

12-19-2002, 06:46 PM

You're saying it's a COINCIDENCE that the ONLY two OPs that were retained just so happened to be the only two that were on the same tape as the episode themself? Possibly, but I highly doubt it. I still think that the ONLY reason Bebop and Yu Yu kept their intros was that they're still attached to the episode, because I don't see any other evidence. The Japanese theory is another one, but I'm almost positive that the OPs being seperated from the episode was a vital clue.

I don't think it matters whether the openings are on the tape or not; if the opening is causing Cartoon Network to lose advertising time, then they'd take the time to excise the openings. Sure, it takes time to cut footage, but say they air Cowboy Bebop consistently for several years and have several marathons with episodes at 24 minutes each - in the end they'd loose much more advertiser money than they'd make from not taking the openings off their tapes!

I don't have any idea as to if this is how it would work (this seems to be the way your theory suggests it) I would generally think CN would just request the tapes from Bandai or whoever, but either way I don't think this to be so. If Cowboy Bebop is running over, they're losing ad time, plain and simple.

I'm much more apt to agree with whoever said that Cartoon Network is just keeping the "better" openings because Adult Swim does have some time to kill with their not airing any interstitials like Toonami... but then, who decides what's better? I sure as heck like "Change the World" better than Yu Yu Hakusho's opening!!

I think they basically sat down and realized they were running over, and had to cut some OPs off. Yu Yu Hakusho's doesn't cause any time problems, and Cowboy Bebop's represents the show really well. InuYasha's, however, is an upbeat pop song that CN mighta' felt turned off new viewers, thus they cut the OP for InuYasha. Of course, this still leaves shows like Outlaw Star...

So, I have no idea!!

Fact is, no reason really makes much sense right now!
Not the Japanese language one, not the "attacthed on the tapes" one, and certainly not the time one...

KingKoopa

12-19-2002, 07:13 PM

Originally posted by EscaflownePilot
I don't think it matters whether the openings are on the tape or not; if the opening is causing Cartoon Network to lose advertising time, then they'd take the time to excise the openings. Sure, it takes time to cut footage, but say they air Cowboy Bebop consistently for several years and have several marathons with episodes at 24 minutes each - in the end they'd loose much more advertiser money than they'd make from not taking the openings off their tapes!

I don't have any idea as to if this is how it would work (this seems to be the way your theory suggests it) I would generally think CN would just request the tapes from Bandai or whoever, but either way I don't think this to be so. If Cowboy Bebop is running over, they're losing ad time, plain and simple.

I'm much more apt to agree with whoever said that Cartoon Network is just keeping the "better" openings because Adult Swim does have some time to kill with their not airing any interstitials like Toonami... but then, who decides what's better? I sure as heck like "Change the World" better than Yu Yu Hakusho's opening!!

I think they basically sat down and realized they were running over, and had to cut some OPs off. Yu Yu Hakusho's doesn't cause any time problems, and Cowboy Bebop's represents the show really well. InuYasha's, however, is an upbeat pop song that CN mighta' felt turned off new viewers, thus they cut the OP for InuYasha. Of course, this still leaves shows like Outlaw Star...

So, I have no idea!!

Fact is, no reason really makes much sense right now!
Not the Japanese language one, not the "attacthed on the tapes" one, and certainly not the time one... So in other words, it's a big coincidence. I still don't buy it. They sit down and decide that it's easy to get rid of those OPs, and they need the extra time. Therefore, they just stop playing the tapes. They're just not bothering to cut the ones off the tapes. I don't see how this DOESN'T make sense.

Nexus810

12-19-2002, 07:15 PM

Actually the Japanese language one does make a lot of sense and ill tell you why.

People watch shows from the beginning to the end some weirdo people who are idiots may be turned off from the show when seeing Japanese...the ending dosnt matter becasue in reality they have already watched the entire episode giving it the ratings.

That may not be it but it certainly helps continue the Japanese language theory.

In reality i doubt people would think that way -- but there are some weird types of racists out there.

William C. Maune

12-19-2002, 07:42 PM

[indent]If the Cowboy Bebop opening was attached to the tape, wouldn't the Gundam 0083 and Outlaw Star openings be attached as well since the shows are from the same company?

EscaflownePilot

12-19-2002, 07:46 PM

So in other words, it's a big coincidence. I still don't buy it. They sit down and decide that it's easy to get rid of those OPs, and they need the extra time. Therefore, they just stop playing the tapes. They're just not bothering to cut the ones off the tapes. I don't see how this DOESN'T make sense.

It may be a combination of two theories:
They need some extra time, but can still keep one or two openings. They find it easier to cut the openings off the shows that don't have them attatched to begin with. Thus, Cowboy Bebop's stays.

I guess that's possible...

Nexus810's theory is also possible...

I can only hope that the Adult Swim 2003 "launch" will clarify this.

I'm sort of inclined to think it'll just be a mystery unless we somehow get an official explanation, though.

We did get an official explanation: time. Yet this isn't holding up so well, is it?

EscaflownePilot

12-19-2002, 07:49 PM

If the Cowboy Bebop opening was attached to the tape, wouldn't the Gundam 0083 and Outlaw Star openings be attached as well since the shows are from the same company?

Good point; however, Outlaw Star and Gundam 0083 were (or were supposed to be) Toonami shows, meaning it's a given that the OPs will be cut. Why would Bandai send a tape with the OPs when it'll just be taken out and they knew it? Cowboy Bebop was an Adult Swim show to begin with, and Cartoon Network had intentions of airing the opening with it from the start. Thus, they ask for the tapes to include openings...

Argh... nothing's making sense here...

Joe Tully

12-19-2002, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by EscaflownePilot

We did get an official explanation: time. Yet this isn't holding up so well, is it?

I said "official," meaning "from someone with power at CN, i.e., people responsible for removing the OPs."

I love the holidays. The christmas tree, the snow, the smell of ego in threads on OPs...wait a second...

KingKoopa

12-19-2002, 08:03 PM

You could tell the OPs were on different tapes from where the rating showed up. They play the rating for the main tape, not a lead-in tape. Change the World aired, then the episode with the rating. For YYH, Smile Bomb aired with the rating then the episode followed. Bebop followed YYH's pattern and aired the rating with the episode. 0083's original intro was aired seperately as well, the episode and rating followed the episode. MSG's Toonami OP was attached to the tape, probably because it's being used as the "official" American intro for the series. OLS was aired seperately from its OP.

It's strange, too. They time I thought about this was about 5 minutes before the first Inuyasha aired without its OP.

Killtacular

12-19-2002, 08:20 PM

I'm fairly sure Inuyasha's rating came up during the title screen, before the OP was replaced. I remember being relieved to see a TV-PG when "Change the World" was playing, because that week, AdultSwim.com had mistakenly reported Inuyasha as being TV-Y7. I wasn't really expecting it to be TV-Y7, but I had to make sure.

In fact they had all sorts of problems with handling the tapes at first. The eyecatchers were in very weird spots during the episode that didn't fit the American standard, for example, so they had to be removed in order to work around them (They would fade out during the near-climax of a scene, and then fade back in on the same 30 seconds so as not to confuse the viewer).

So if Inuyasha's OP was actually physically removed from the tapes, that might discount the "let's leave the other OPs on the tapes."

Remember that the whole problem started up with an 0083 episode going to 27 minutes. That meant 5 minutes of adtime got shafted, and companies got understandably pissed. Even CN's own advertisements for the half-hour block would only total 2 minutes total (which is probably why they've allowed shows to run at 24 minutes in the past), but 27 minutes was right out.

As for why they'd remove the Outlaw Star OP when the show was editted to 22 minutes, well, that would be going along with the Japanese theory, if you ask me. But it doesn't really matter. The show's gone now anyway.

KingKoopa

12-19-2002, 08:33 PM

Matt, I distinctly remember the TV-PG not starting until the episode began from the start. I had commented on that even before the OPs were removed. If you want, I'll try to find the post.

5 minutes later:

Here it is: http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?postid=474318#post474318

sl4

12-19-2002, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by KingKoopa
Matt, I distinctly remember the TV-PG not starting until the episode began from the start. I had commented on that even before the OPs were removed. If you want, I'll try to find the post.

5 minutes later:

Here it is: http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?postid=474318#post474318

I have every episode of IY in my extensive Adult Swim Archive, I can check if you guys want me to.

KingKoopa

12-19-2002, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by superloud4
I have every episode of IY in my extensive Adult Swim Archive, I can check if you guys want me to. Since I posted that only a couple hours before the OPs were cut for the first time, I'm pretty sure I was right, but you can confirm it if you want.

sl4

12-19-2002, 09:03 PM

Originally posted by KingKoopa
Since I posted that only a couple hours before the OPs were cut for the first time, I'm pretty sure I was right, but you can confirm it if you want.

Well, that's good enough for me.

jeffrey 228

12-19-2002, 09:57 PM

I think that is also a good idea as well, but currently have no clue on it.

Anime Freak

12-19-2002, 11:00 PM

Blah Blah Blah. C'mon, what's more important here, the show itself or the opening??????? Quit arguing/debating about somthing that you don't like as much as the show itself and somthing that CN will never fix, so don't worry about. Geez. :rolleyes:

KingKoopa

12-19-2002, 11:01 PM

Originally posted by Anime Freak
Quit arguing/debating about somthing that you don't like as much as the show itself What about those of us who DO like it as much as the show itself?

SirLemming

12-19-2002, 11:20 PM

Don't worry, Anime Freak -- I don't see anyone in this thread threatening to boycott Adult Swim over the openings (which actually was going on a few months ago, believe it or not). A little inquisitive discussion never hurt anyone.

As for Futurama's opening, it will definitely not be cut. It was made for American TV, unlike these animes that were made for Japanese TV's time restraints. Then again, once in a while American shows DO get their openings cut, so you never know. But it shouldn't be any different than it was on Fox.

But could someone please clear up one thing for me: WHY do we refer to openings as OPs? That doesn't even make sense! It's not like it's the initials or something. I'm assuming ED means "ending" somehow?

Anime Freak

12-19-2002, 11:21 PM

But why would you like the opening as much as the show, that basically shows that you don't like the show as much.

sl4

12-19-2002, 11:23 PM

Originally posted by Anime Freak
But why would you like the opening as much as the show, that basically shows that you don't like the show as much.

Wow. That is some of the dumbest logic I've ever heard. http://homepage.mac.com/sl4/.Pictures/smileys/hiei.gif

KingKoopa

12-19-2002, 11:38 PM

Originally posted by superloud4
Wow. That is some of the dumbest logic I've ever heard. http://homepage.mac.com/sl4/.Pictures/smileys/hiei.gif Yes, I have to agree. I don't see the logic in that statement, either.

Joe Tully

12-19-2002, 11:51 PM

OK kids, simmer down and watch the insults.

Sir Gatts

12-20-2002, 01:48 AM

Originally posted by Anime Freak
Blah Blah Blah. C'mon, what's more important here, the show itself or the opening??????? It's really not about the opener or the body of the show that is in debate here but it's the ethnics of CN in addition to the reasoning behind time restraints.

Openers jointed to episode, Japanese language theory, contract issues restricting CN from making alternations. All can lead to rather good assumptions surrounding the timing theory but the end result leads to being cost effective.

JJc14

12-20-2002, 11:55 AM

more out of curiosity than anything else, with it being said that the openers for yu yu hakusho and cowboy bebop are attached to the episodes, did they actually air the openers six times each week during the summer marathons?

Killtacular

12-20-2002, 12:23 PM

Yes. They not only aired the OPs each time, but they also had a special ASA OP right before it.

It wasn't the real ASA OP (mostly because it had Majin Buu music), but the footage used was decent. Not decent enough to replace Tank though.

NewLib

12-20-2002, 01:10 PM

I will never see how someone likes an opening as much as the actual show. Maybe if it was Tank, but IY's opening???

Masamune2052

12-20-2002, 02:34 PM

Hey, I like the second IY OP, it's catchy and it's got Rin! So how could you not like it? :D

Achika

12-20-2002, 02:35 PM

No one has mentioned this yet but Outlaw Star's intro not only fit the show perfectly but it was also subtitled in English.

Now how was that not enough to warrant keeping?

By the way, some Toonami shows have accidentally aired an episode or two with the shows intro. Sailor Moon S, DBZ, Tenchi come to mind but I'm fairly sure another did possibly from Bandai.

So it could be that the majority of shows come with the OPs and EDs attached and the Viz is just weird.

Master Moron

12-20-2002, 02:48 PM

NikJam timed Cowboy Bebop and declared that it went over 22 minutes several weeks ago, to which Matt Wilson claimed that he needed to check his watch.

So, here comes Living Fruit Virus several weeks later and claims that the Cowboy Bebop's opening does indeed go over 22 minutes. What in the? Is this from an actual source or what? Who is doing the timing here?

I'm not trying to be rude or anything, I'm just confused as to why we're making a big long topic about this now, when Nikjam made the claim of Cowboy Bebop going over 22 minutes way back at the beginning of the month.

Will Sturnick

12-20-2002, 04:40 PM

Am I one of the only people who liked "Change the World." For a while I liked it more the "I Am" and "Owarinai Yume." Though now I like them all, but I still like "Change the World" the best.

DarkMaster

12-20-2002, 05:06 PM

The point is if toonami or ASA had the same opening making in a never ending run like dbz. I'd go nutz.

Starblazers for example is a great song. :rolleyes:

sl4

12-20-2002, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by DarkMaster
The point is if toonami or ASA had the same opening making in a never ending run like dbz. I'd go nutz.

Was that supposed to make sense?

SpaceCowboy

12-20-2002, 11:28 PM

Also, up until the week that ASA first cut the openings, the only advertising the block got was Juicy Fruit ads! Remember that? Now, ASA atleast gets enough ads for CN to make money and not cut into the actual shows.

I think that if CN can't show the openings every episode, they should atleast air them for new anime that premire on the block. Like show Lupin the 3rd's and Trigun's openings only when the first episode is shown and that's it!
For shows like Inu Yasha and Yu Yu Hakusho, the openings should be shown only on the episode that premires the new openings. If they did that, they'd please the audience and also save all the time they want to.
As long as they don't make time cuts within the shows' actual episodes, I'm happy.

G1Ravage

12-21-2002, 01:20 AM

Originally posted by Achika
No one has mentioned this yet but Outlaw Star's intro not only fit the show perfectly but it was also subtitled in English.

By the way, some Toonami shows have accidentally aired an episode or two with the shows intro. Sailor Moon S, DBZ, Tenchi come to mind but I'm fairly sure another did possibly from Bandai.

Yes, Sailor Moon S and DBZ and even DB had their OPs shown (accidentally?) at least once, but their OP songs were either instrumental only or dubbed into English. None of Tenchi's openings have ever aired on Toonami.

EightOh

12-21-2002, 02:55 AM

Originally posted by saladdays
Yeah, in alternating English and Japanese. :D I love that.

Inu Yasha's OP sucked. (for lack of a better world)That's why they were trying to change it! ;)

Master Moron

12-21-2002, 02:09 PM

All you people who say they changed the opening to Inu-yasha because it sucks are missing the point. I don't think Inu-yasha is really supposed to be an action show. I think fans of Dragonball Z would be turned off by the rather dull fights. I think the real emphasis on the show is on the relationship between Inu-yasha and Kagome. I know many will dissagree with me here, but it seems like Inu-yasha is actually targeted towards a female audience. With it's pretty men and romantic plots I'd imagine it could attract a large female audience. Sure, "Change the World" may sound crappy to you, but I doubt you're the intended audience. Boy bands are supposed to attract female viewers. The Toonami openings may attract male viewers who just want to see some action, but these will most likely turn off female viewers.

I think we might be looking at a situation like Hamtaro, how it recieved good ratings on Toonami, but not from the intended audience.

Perhaps, Cartoon Network promised advertisers a male audience for Adult Swim and when "Change the World" attracted too much of a female audience they axed it in exchange for a clip opening that featured Inu-yasha punching the screen saying "You stupid girl!" What better way to get rid of the female viewers than by punching them and calling them stupid?

Ah, now I'm sure someone will ask, why does Yu Yu Hakusho and Cowboy Bebop keep their openings. Well, Yu Yu Hakusho's opening features feeble women being rescued by big masculine men so it's already sexist enough to turn off female viewers and Cowboy Bebop features extended shots of Faye's leg, which would also turn off female viewers. The other openings have to go because they might attract female viewers.

Hey, you might think my theory is crazy, but it's a lot more sane than my "Swords are the devil's tool theory", my "Long white hair is for terrorists theory" or my "the color red is evil theory". None of these other theories work very well to explain why the openings were cut.

SpaceCowboy

12-21-2002, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by G1Ravage
Yes, Sailor Moon S and DBZ and even DB had their OPs shown (accidentally?) at least once, but their OP songs were either instrumental only or dubbed into English. None of Tenchi's openings have ever aired on Toonami.

Tenchi Universe's opening is dubbed on the English version of the series.

Killtacular

12-21-2002, 03:06 PM

I seriously doubt it has anything to do with sexism, and I also seriously doubt that Inuyasha's target audience in America is primarily female.

Anime Freak

12-21-2002, 05:11 PM

sl4

12-21-2002, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by Anime Freak
Why would anyone say that Inu-yasha is geared towards females?Sure one of the main characters is female,but still its not even to close to somthing they'd like. This show is probably more towards Men, since that's what the whole point of AS is for.

Who ever said AS was only for men? http://homepage.mac.com/sl4/.Pictures/smileys/hiei.gif Just because most of the viewers are male, it wasn't made just for men.

dmr456

12-21-2002, 07:45 PM

Its unbelievable how many "Change the World" bashers there are in this forum. But then again, those who are bashing the song are probably those who prefer the Inuyasha Dub over Sub; or those who never watch their anime subbed. Its a real shame if you think about it. I mean what kind of anime fan would hate the intro of their fav. series. Its possible you may not like it at first, but after awhile it grows on you. Anyways, there are other openings and endings from artists like Hitomi, Nanase Aikawa, Do As Infinity, Ayumi Hamasaki, and BoA that you, "Change the World bashing fans" might, in the future, grow to like.
Oh, and the "Japanese Theory" makes the most sense so far, but then again nobody can be really sure.
Anyways, enjoy Inuyasha, whether your watching dub or sub, but you should experience it in its original Japanese form. I know its expensive but its worth it. And believe me, its a great series and the 1st movie is one of my all-time favorites...

EightOh

12-21-2002, 08:04 PM

Oh, give me a break. I think "Change the World" is great, and wish it was still on there, but don't try to pull that "I'm a better, more pure anime fan than those who don't like it; they just don't understand" routine.

dmr456

12-21-2002, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by EightOh
Oh, give me a break. I think "Change the World" is great, and wish it was still on there, but don't try to pull that "I'm a better, more pure anime fan than those who don't like it; they just don't understand" routine.
LOL :D :D :D That wasn't my point. I was just trying to entertain the kiddies for a bit. Don't take life too serious my friend.

Chris Sanders MSX

12-21-2002, 09:39 PM

Originally posted by Matt Wilson
Well, you'll definitely see the second opening, starting on December 28th.

I happy but how do you know these things ?

Joe Tully

12-21-2002, 09:54 PM

Originally posted by superloud4
Who ever said AS was only for men? http://homepage.mac.com/sl4/.Pictures/smileys/hiei.gif Just because most of the viewers are male, it wasn't made just for men.

Eh, you can debate over the semantics all you want, but the idea is, most fans of anime (and action/adventure stuff) are male. And shows are generally presented with demographics like that in mind. It doesn't mean that it's wrong for women to enjoy them, but the network is less likely to focus on them since they're in the minority.

Dogasu

12-21-2002, 10:08 PM

Why would anyone say that Inu-yasha is geared towards females?Sure one of the main characters is female,but still its not even to close to somthing they'd like. This show is probably more towards Men, since that's what the whole point of AS is for.

Maybe if the show was made FOR Adult Swim, the target audience thing would come to play. But it wasn't. It was originally made for Japanese audiences, with Japanese fans (many of them well-versed in the works of Takahashi Rumika) in mind.

But I still don't get how everyone thinks Inu-Yasha is geared toward males. The manga was created/written/drawn by Takahashi Rumika, a manga artist known for making primarily-shoujo manga (Maison Ikkoku, Urusei Yatsura, Ranma 1/2, etc.). The show's main plot is about the romance between Inu-Yasha and Kagome/Kikyo, not about fighters trying to power up and beat the crap out of each other. Sure, there's action, but action doesn't mean "guys only." Saying that Inu-Yasha is meant for guys is like saying Fushigi Yuugi is meant for guys, and anyone who's seen that show knows that's not the case. I know a LOT more female fans of Inu-Yasha than male fans, and I'm sure a number of you do as well.

P.S. I know some of you are going to argue that Ranma 1/2 isn't a girls' show. I'd just like to point out that, in Japan, "topless women" doesn't mean "meant for guys." If you argue that the show is meant for guys because of all the "naked chicks," then you need to work on your ability to argue something...

DarthNuriko

12-21-2002, 11:34 PM

Originally posted by Masamune2052
Hah, we all knew it! Good job LFV.

I'll kind of go with you on what you said about 'Change The World', Matt. It didnt really show what the series was about, but the second OP does. The second ending is quite nice though, showing scene's of the episode. The only problem I have with it is that it just has too much Sesshomaru. (in reference to what's in the spoiler tag) Hey, you can never have too much of him. :D

Anyway, to the casual viewer it does look like a form of discrimination; even if it is actually just a time limit or whatever the true reason is. (The only openings here now are instrumental or English while the Japanese one mysteriously disappears?) I'm inclined to agree with that point to some extent. It just looks funny. But I'll also concede that "Change the World" is inferior to the other music the series offers and even made me look twice when it first came on. ("THIS is the opening for the show?")

Outside Angel

12-22-2002, 01:13 AM

Hmm...agreed. Too much Sesshomaru? I don't think it can be done. And I'm actually going to be one to agree that perhaps yeah, Inuyasha may have a more female fan-base. I as well know more female Inuyasha fans than male, and while the fighting is genuinly kick-ass, it does seem, in many places, to take a back seat to the relationship between Inuyasha and Kagome. Plus, as was mentioned earlier, all those beautiful guys! Not that there's a complaint there...not by a long shot.

Charred Knight

12-22-2002, 01:53 AM

Originally posted by Dogasu
Maybe if the show was made FOR Adult Swim, the target audience thing would come to play. But it wasn't. It was originally made for Japanese audiences, with Japanese fans (many of them well-versed in the works of Takahashi Rumika) in mind.

But I still don't get how everyone thinks Inu-Yasha is geared toward males. The manga was created/written/drawn by Takahashi Rumika, a manga artist known for making primarily-shoujo manga (Maison Ikkoku, Urusei Yatsura, Ranma 1/2, etc.). The show's main plot is about the romance between Inu-Yasha and Kagome/Kikyo, not about fighters trying to power up and beat the crap out of each other. Sure, there's action, but action doesn't mean "guys only." Saying that Inu-Yasha is meant for guys is like saying Fushigi Yuugi is meant for guys, and anyone who's seen that show knows that's not the case. I know a LOT more female fans of Inu-Yasha than male fans, and I'm sure a number of you do as well.

P.S. I know some of you are going to argue that Ranma 1/2 isn't a girls' show. I'd just like to point out that, in Japan, "topless women" doesn't mean "meant for guys." If you argue that the show is meant for guys because of all the "naked chicks," then you need to work on your ability to argue something...
[sarcasm]Of course Takashi is only the most succesful female manga because all her mangas are shoujo-oriented mangas that appear in Shonen Sunday.[sarcasm]

You have obviously never read Inu-yasha and you have obviously not only never read Urusei Yatsura but you have never seen an episode of it.

The main plot of the story is the battle vrs. Naraku.

ALMOST EVERY SINGLE IMPORTANT CHARACTER HATES NARAKU!!

He killed Kikyo
He tried to kill Inu-yasha
He tries to kill Kagome regurally
He caused the Air Rip in Miroku's hand
He used Shesshy

He killed Sango's father and entire village, lied to her, than proceeded to brainwash her brother, has her brother's life in his hands
He tried to kill Ran
He killed most of Kouga's pack
He created Kagura and forces her to do his work

Basically two characters don't want to try to kill Naraku.

Naraku himself and Kanna.

The only ones who care about Kikyo is Kikyo, Kagome, Naraku, and Inu-yasha

Also I think women got turned off from Urusei Yatsura, due to the fact that the main character is the world's most unappealing man, the complete lack of love stories, the fact that most of the women in the story are psychotic idiots, also due to the perverted nature of the manga.

So if Urusei Yatsura was aimed at women it was aimed at either Lesbians, or masochist women.

No wonder Urusei Yatsura had mostly a male fanbase.

Will Sturnick

12-22-2002, 02:16 AM

Originally posted by Charred Knight
[ALMOST EVERY SINGLE IMPORTANT CHARACTER HATES NARAKU!!

I wonder if Shippo hates Naraku. I never really got the impression that he did, though he probably does. Though Naraku hasn't really done anything aimed solely towards Shippo (though he might have, after seeing 90 episodes of the series, it kinda blends into a nice plot-shaped goo)

Charred Knight

12-22-2002, 02:35 AM

Shippo hates Naraku because Naraku tries to kill Kagome and Kagome is the person Shippo cares the most for.

DarthNuriko

12-22-2002, 07:50 PM

But I still don't get how everyone thinks Inu-Yasha is geared toward males. Like Charred Knight said, it was in Shonen (shonen = boy) Sunday. Example: The manga is much more bloody in its fights. That aspect alone makes it something not usually aimed for girls.

BTW I'm saying that despite being part of the large female fanbase. :D

Conan-san

12-23-2002, 05:09 AM

Ok, so it has turned from an argument about op's to what audience Inu-yasha's for...

Ruri: Idiots...

sl4

12-23-2002, 05:11 AM

Originally posted by Conan-san
Ok, so it has turned from an argument about op's to what audience Inu-yasha's for...

Ruri: Idiots...

Yay! Pointless arguments are my favorite kind!

Dogasu

12-25-2002, 03:06 PM

You have obviously never read Inu-yasha and you have obviously not only never read Urusei Yatsura but you have never seen an episode of it.

The main plot of the story is the battle vrs. Naraku.

Wow? Really? Man, that's a little one-sided, isn't it? I mean, poor Ataru has no chance against someone like Naraku :D

And yes, I've read Inu-Yasha, and despite some leanings toward the shonen side, it still has a distincly shoujo feel to it. Kagome is the girl with whom the audience can connect to because she's the one who's the most like someone in "the real world." She introduces us to the world Inu-Yasha lives in, not Inu-Yasha or one of the other men in the show. As we progress through the story, we see just about everything through her eyes--her worrying over Inu-Yasha during a battle, wondering whether or not Inu-Yasha really cares for her, etc.

Besides that, Kagome isn't the stereotypically weak female that girls tend to play in the majority of shonen manga. Kagome can be as stubborn, strong, resourceful, cunning, and thoughtful as any of the male characters in the show.

ALMOST EVERY SINGLE IMPORTANT CHARACTER HATES NARAKU!!

He killed Kikyo
He tried to kill Inu-yasha
He tries to kill Kagome regurally
He caused the Air Rip in Miroku's hand
He used Shesshy

<snip>

Basically two characters don't want to try to kill Naraku.

Naraku himself and Kanna.

The only ones who care about Kikyo is Kikyo, Kagome, Naraku, and Inu-yasha

So having a villain that everyone in the show hates suddenly makes it a shonen title? Sorry, I don't follow your logic. I mean, aren't villains SUPPOSED to be despised and hated? Shoujo manga aren't restricted to just love stories--stories about good triumphing over evil can be the basis of girls' stories. I really think the only real requirement is that the lead character/mascot is female. Lum certainly does that for Urusei Yatsura, and Kagome plays the part of the main character in Inu-Yasha .

Also I think women got turned off from Urusei Yatsura, due to the fact that the main character is the world's most unappealing man, the complete lack of love stories, the fact that most of the women in the story are psychotic idiots, also due to the perverted nature of the manga.

Yeah, but a lot of women enjoy the fact that Ataru is constantly being punished for his lechery. It's not just a bunch of big-chested women submitting to his every perverted whim--it's a bunch of women slapping/shocking/kicking the crap out of Ataru for being such a pervert, and I know a lot of women who enjoy seeing Ataru what he deserves.

NewLib

12-25-2002, 04:23 PM

I don't know how watching the dub or sub would affect how you like "Change the World"? I mean it is a horrid song in both.

KingKoopa

12-25-2002, 05:17 PM

You don't understand one thing.
Originally posted by DarthNuriko
Like Charred Knight said, it was in Shonen (shonen = boy) Sunday. Example: The manga is much more bloody in its fights. That aspect alone makes it something not usually aimed for girls.

BTW I'm saying that despite being part of the large female fanbase. :D
Shonen Sunday=Shonen anime. Shonen anime=aimed at boys. What part of this do you not understand?

Beat

12-25-2002, 06:23 PM

Hey, it can be confusing.

EscaflownePilot

12-25-2002, 09:40 PM

Shonen Sunday=Shonen anime. Shonen anime=aimed at boys. What part of this do you not understand?

While I'm not claiming to know what audience either the manga or anime is aimed at, nor do I have any idea what it's target audience is, just because the manga was for boys doesn't mean the anime's directors didn't want to attract a different audience, or at least add elements to it to make it appeal to a broader audience of both genders.

Really, though, I don't think this is at all why the op. was cut...
I have no idea why, but I'd either agree with the Japanese theory or the "attatched on the tapes" theory, but not this.

Cyporiean

12-25-2002, 10:39 PM

Very rarely does a title change target audicenes when going from still to motion.. I can't even think of a single example..

And I'm fairly sure Takahashi did one Shoujo series, Maison Ikkou (SP?)

I know it says it somewhere on the Ranma 1/2 Prefect Site.. but because I don't have main computer anywhere near me.. I can't check..

but I know for sure that Urusei, Ranma and InuYasha are Shouen.

just because something is a love story doesn't mean its made for females... Gundam can be considered a love story, and it is most definitly a series Aimed at Men.