Groovenians Comment Thread for director Jordan Reichek-- PLEASE READ FIRST POST

[Matthew Williams]

I realize we have our standard "post your reviews" thread up, but I'm posting this here as I'm going to do a "postgame" interview with Jordan Reichek, the director of the Groovenians. So put your reviews, questions, and comments here about Groovenians-- but keep in mind that I'm going to pick and choose your opinions to give to Jordan.

I'm going to make this clear-- if you hated it, and think that because it's TV-G it doesn't belong here, PUT THAT IN THE POST YOUR REVIEWS THREAD. Otherwise, if you have comments about the show, positive or negative(and if it's negative, please elaborate and say why you thought it sucked), place them here. This thread is being viewed by the director and it's probably not a good idea for him to run into a billion "OMG THAT SUCKED" posts.

The previous thread was getting unruly, so I deleted the first post and I'm starting anew. Please behave or I will be handing out warnings, and I will delete any replies that completely bash this show. Thank you for your attention.

[Moof]

I did post a long a drawn out post...but its gone now and i really don't feel like doing it again....

[Zechs]

I myself didn't find it all that amusing the art was fun but I found that the story was lacking that certain somethihing. It's not the wrost thing Ive ever seen nor the best. It needs work the consept could work if you just present it better. I'm not trying to scare you out of the biz I'm just saying it needs work.

[Zyzzybalubah]

This program felt alot like a dancing game in the lines of Bust-a-Move/Groove and Space Channel 5? Did any of those games inspire you when creating this and would you ever consider making a game like that with these characters?

Pretty interesting special.

[Joe Tully]

1) Was this planned as a pilot for a series? It sorta has that feeling, especially with the ending leaving them in Groovenia.

2) There were a lot of big names attached to this (Dennis Hopper, Paul Reubens, B-52s, etc.), which is pretty impressive considering this is a single half-hour show. How did you get all of the big names involved in this?

3) Parts of the show reminded me of the surrealism of the old Betty Boop cartoons from Fleischer studios, and some of the articles we've read said how the Jetsons and Flintstones had influenced Kenny Scharf. Did you pull inspiration from these or other sources, animated or otherwise?

4) I've read that Linda Simensky was approached with this project about 8 years ago. Why did it take 8 years for it to be completed?

5) How did you and Kenny Scharf work together on this? How were your roles seperated, and what were each of you involved in?

[Isondill]

I actually found the animation to be SUPERB and the story to be excellent,enchanting, and overal remarkable. From the instant it began I was tuned in to the characters and their personalitys of believing in Love and Art...

Truely, this was one of the best things to happen to Adult Swim Comedy. I even find it to be along the lines of an 'instant classic.'

You did a great job directing it Jordan Reichek!

Is this planned to be a full time series?

[citrusmiracle]

I was honestly excited about this special all week. And when the cartoon started I knew the opinion I walked away with was going to be incredibly biased, simply because I've loved Kenny Scharf for years.

It started out getting me really excited. I'm hearing the B-52's, seeing this cast and thinking "G'damn! Isn't this a little high class for Adult Swim?"

Then, the actual cartoon starts, and I just started staring.

Halfway through the cartoon, they make their way to Groovenia, and everything looks simply beautiful. I turned into a child, with only one thought "I want to live on Groovenia too!" It was only wonderful that I was blinded by this animation, because every time I heard a single line of dialogue, I wished that I hadn't.

There's something very solid and intriguing about the story of two kids leaving a hum-drum lifestyle, and taking off to a planet where everyone is a hipster and everything is groovy. It's good fantasy, and has an appeal that spans age barriers. I just think that could have been brought to life with way fewer words.

In my mind, this cartoon would have been nearly perfect if it would have been all music, or at least almost all music. It would have been pretty easy to pick up on the plotline anyway, and it would have showcased what is obviously the cartoon's strongest point - which is the animation. Quite possibly the first time I've seen 3D CG that's actualy looked artful. And the big special famous cast seemed more of a footnote. Personally, the only voiced I recognized was RuPaul.

Aesthetically, the only thing I'm against is the hipster guy. His body just looks icky.

I don't really have anything I can put into a question, but a summary of comments...

• The big names really seemed to hurt the show. The dialogue wasn't very interesting, and the only "joke" I cought was the Wings "Jet" reference, a chuckle at best. This big name comment does not include the B-52's, of course - who were perfect.

• The Normals looked awesome. As did the architecture, and all the hipster females. The males - not so much.

• It sort of goes without saying that it's a weird fit with the Adult Swim format, and seeing it in that block means that people who would otherwise probably like the show won't get into it, because they're looking for more joke-riddled comedy.

• The Normal leader's song (while very cool looking) felt waaaaay to Disney.

•_With tweaking, the Groovians has obvious potential to become a cult classic, and I can see this thing coming out of the monitors and hipster hangouts everywhere.

Really, I can't say this enough. Beautiful animation - bad dialogue. I'm gonna try watching this while listening to B-52's Wild Planet, and I bet it'll be great.

[The Landstander]

Well, I don't mean to be rude or anything, but I just didn't like it. The animation was amazing, better than anything else on Adult Swim. I don't think you're hitting your target audience by putting this on Adult Swim.

(Sorry if that breaks any of the rules for this thread)

[Arde]

As many had said before me, the animation was nice, very good for ASC since many of us here at ASC are accustomed to some great low budget shows in ASC.

However, it's hard for me to find good points for this show. Although the animation was very good for an ASC show, it was just decent for an animated series in TV (and this is comparing it with other 3d shows in TV).
So that means the animation won't grab our attention.

So we come to the dialogues, comedic sketches and characters that has been what ASC is all about. Look at other low quality animation shows that have entertain us in ASC: Home Movies, Sea Lab, Brak Show, Aqua Teen, Space Ghost, well almost all good shows in ASC is low quality animation anyway...

However, these very important parts weren't present in the show.
In fact, I couldn't bear to hear the dialogues and songs and by that time the animation didn't help at all.
Although some people may like the show, it shows so far that there is a very few percentage of people in ASC who like the show.

[Nik Jam]

I loved it. The Animation was excellent and everything was just so cool. And the girls were cute ;)

So it was G, Big deal, it wasn't a thing that would cut for a Cartoon Cartoon.

[HomeMoviesFan]

It was nice...but the animation didn't really clear it up that it was not that entertaining. OK, here's some things I'll suggest:

*More jokes. Jokes make a show funny...being funny is what makes a show entertaining...a show entertaining brings audience...audience brings good ratings...good ratings means praise...praise brings more audience...etc.

*Less really weird things, like talking trees, that was too disturbing, even for a show of this nature.

*And if the show becomes a series, could you please not have the character overact, like the starring guy, it didn't sound like good acting...

[perkypickle]

hi everyone...

for those of you who enjoyed the show, thank you for watching and we're glad you liked it. the show was always intended to be a very light but trippy 'tag-along' with the characters as we try to establish as much of this unortodox world as we could in 22 minutes.

first, a thanks goes to Matt for sparing us from a torrid flame of hell from the show's detractors.

i agree that our show in this time slot may not be the most suited to what Adult Swim viewers are accustomed to. in fact, we were surprised as you that it was going into this slot. originally, this was planned as early-primetime show to fit more into the Pee Wee's Playhouse mold....kids and adults would be watching. the network however, felt that this show would have more appeal to adults than children because of its content and that is why it was programmed for this block. most of the negative commentators seem to take more offense that "the groovenians" invaded their space than the show itself.

either way, one can work very hard on a show and know well that people will either love it or hate it. actually, this is a good thing as we'll take anything outside of beige, mediocre comments. and you know, there's a very fine line between love and hate!

i'll try to answer individual questions tomorrow.

whatever your opinion about the show, THANKS FOR WATCHING!

jordan reichek

[Karl Olson]

visually, it was stunning. it was just surreal and neautiful most of the time. it's not the greatest cgi, but it fit the special very well. the beigeness of the home planet probably could have been boosted though.

writing wise, it could stand to be a bit more rapid fire in the humor sometimes. the double entredres were very nice and very subtle. those worked very well. the artiste humor could be punched up a bit though, perhaps through subtle references to pieces of art (nothing too blantant though I guess).

appeal wise, I think plays well to older adults (40+), because my parents seemed enjoy it, and kids, because my little brother enjoyed it. It's got the split humor that a lot of the cartoons on CN have, but it splits a little higher probably because of some of more beatnik humor.

other than that, I wish you the best of luck with it. it's got a lot of potential as a series, either as an all ages cartoon or as an adult cartoon.

[Harvey BirdGuy]

I was extremely pleased with it. The CGI was unbelievable and the plot was fun and interesting
If Kenny Scharf were to make this into a film as he wanted he would be making the right idea. :)

[bassist]

Since no one's posted any questions, here are 3 to start it off:

1) Why did Groovenians end up as a short or pilot rather than a movie? Did you and the production team decide it was better suited to a series and why?

2) I'm sure a lot of people noticed the visual similarities to a lot of 60s and 70s animation in terms of colors and shapes. Are there any films or series that you guys specifically looked at as inspiration when making this?

3) Where do you see Groovenians going over the next year? Will AS continue to be its home?

Thanks.

-Ben

[Calhoun07]

I some how felt this was an extended cartoon short. I know Paul Ruebens was involved, so that may have lead to my bias, but I kept on feeling that these characters would be better suited in cartoon shorts, and these cartoon shorts would have been perfectly suited for inclusion on Pee Wee's Playhouse. But with the talent involved, I do feel this show can become more, given the chance. However, the pilot seemed rather meandering to me. I'd like to see more just to see where the characters go, and to see some good stories come from this world.

PS the TV G didn't bother me. There ARE "G" rated movies that were made back in the 70's, for example, that are decidely adult in nature. You can have G rated material for adults. People shouldn't whine if G rated material is on Adult Swim. You're giving into the Disney brainwash mindset if you think that G rated=content for 3 year olds.

[jrh31584]

in fact, we were surprised as you that it was going into this slot. originally, this was planned as early-primetime show to fit more into the Pee Wee's Playhouse mold....kids and adults would be watching.
Therein lies the reason for much of the dislike posted on the review thread IMHO. I and many others on this board think it should go elsewhere on Cartoon Network, but it should remain on, and while I personally disliked it (other than the animation), I can understand its appeal.

[Idioteque]

I'm also wondering what lies in the future for Groovenians? The special seemed more like a pilot than anything.

I found that it was good stylistically, very trippy, but for this to work as a series it would need more solid humor and story. As a stand-alone peice though, I found the special to be pretty good overall.

[fanficgoddess]

though i thought the show rather boreing i did like the point it seemed to be makeing as art is life. which leads me to an odd question about that dog ( i think his name was lookie) now maybe i'm reading to far into this could lookie possibly stand for the "voice" of art? i say this because of the varied sounds he makes, as varied as art is. am i right about this or do i have too much free time to think:) ?

[JetMaster5]

It's a good idea to keep this thread as constructive as possible. Especially if the director is gonna look at this.

[FredNash]

Thanks Joe for cleaning up all those weird posts... but anyway, about the show!

I liked it alot. HOWEVER! It was the low point of the evening. Nothing against the show, just had some stiff competition in some great premieres.

Animation was technically proficient, professional, and designs were outrageous (obviously intended), but there was room for improvement, mainly in the physics (no i'm not talking about the anti-grav boots!). I've done some CG before, and I know how hard it is, but the models seemed alittle... separated... from their environment. They werent interacting, they were just thrown in. Was this on purpose? Again, designs were great, I especially loved the key!

Story was good. Solid premise, but again, I have to say what everyone else seems to be saying, voice acting was annoyingly bad, not in an amateurish way, because I'd say the acting matched the motions and emotions of the animation just fine, so it has to be the intent I suppose. To hammy, even for 'hipsters'. Maybe this is just my cynical angst talking or whatever, but a message like that (truly bohemian, and I love that!) deserves a smidgen of earnest! We've had messages bombarding us from cartoons our whole lives, and it's instinct to tell when a show is sincere and when it's pandering. Groovians is borderline, but I guess I feel that way about alot of modern type art and Groovians certainly seems to be aspiring to some degree to that status.

So Groovians to me has three things going for it. First and best so far is the amazing potential of the world it's set in. Offhand, I can't think of another cartoon that has such a surreal setting, but I can think of another Cartoon Network program which does surreal to even better effect; Samurai Jack. Some of the best scenes from that whole series are simply of Jack's surroundings. I love the setting and think it has great potential to make this a great show, if series is where it's heading.

Second, It has a decent start of a plot. This show could be easily made into a series by taking the general outline of the first show and going any number of directions with it. I'd say the plot was good, at least it has a lot of potential for good stories.

Third, is the 'message'. If paying dues and trying to live a life of peace, love and art is the 'plot', then the message has to be the futility of consumerism at the expense of personal fulfillment (specifically, artistic). At the risk of sounding like a pinko leftist, I think it's great that someone is putting this message out, but at the same time, I question the sincerity of it. Maybe it's just the clash of the campy elements with the 'message' which makes them both come out alittle tainted, I don't know. All I know is, I really want to like this show, but it makes me feel like I'm being talked down to. Is this the hipster message? "If you gotta ask, you'll never know!"

Please continue to produce work of this quality, whether more Groovians, or more 'specials', but also keep expanding on the theme. I'd love to see more Groovians, but only if they represent real development of the characters/storyline.

So there's my 2 cents, keep the change and use it for the down payment on a condo.

[Watermelon]

Remember, guys, they show stuff frim Toonami on ASA, and it's rated TV-Y7 :D

[Joe Tully]

Okay, I just deleted a ton of posts from here that were more than a little rude or off-topic.

You have a problem with my decisions, take it up with me privately. If you don't wanna do that, then get your ass in gear or it's out the door.

This board is supposed to be for adults, but the way that some people act around here makes that a joke. Grow up and learn some respect. If not for me and Matt Williams, then at least for Jordan, who's doing us a favor by coming here and answering some questions.

The next person I see making an outburst in this thread is gone.

[Conekiller]

I liked the Groovians, it was fun, whinsical and made me think a bit, which was nice.

the probelms I had with it was that I did beleive that it didn't belong in the Adult Swim block, but I don't really see it surviving anywhere else on the network. Also, the trasition from Party to the Normals was too akward like literally from point a to b , it was kind of jaring. I was aware of "pop culture references" form an article my local paper wrote on the specila on Saturday (the Miami Herald) but I didn't really notice any, maybe it was just me. Was the name Nixon supposed to be ironic? if it was I didn't get it

But I did like the show, it was quite colorful and the animation was nice, much better than most motion captured stuff. It seemed as if the characters were merely moving into or out of poses at times.

one other minor complaint: the Normal's song was too long, more B52's! and the Tree freaks me out.

[charmuse]

I found my self unable to look away from the show as I love sureal stuff...the music and voices were very good. I was stunned by the tripped out design value and art direction. SLICK! I was less enamored of the story...it had waxing and waning moments...but the last 7-10 minutes in Groovenia with the NORMALS was very cool as well as the psychotic family members. For the most part I enjoyed it....just would tweak the dialogue a bit..to be wittier and faster paced...double entendre stuff is always great...like the old WB cartoons or the Muppet Show.

[hello_lola]

I couldn't really get into the story - but it was very cute, and the voice acting was awesome.

[JetMaster5]

Originally posted by citrusmiracle
• The big names really seemed to hurt the show. The dialogue wasn't very interesting, and the only "joke" I cought was the Wings "Jet" reference, a chuckle at best. This big name comment does not include the B-52's, of course - who were perfect.

:looks back at his own name:

....what....the.....

....how....remarkably....interesting....

[geraldorivera]

I definitely liked the retro/hipster type theme! The animation was superb. It was almost hypnotizing.

Although the dialogue was a little dry. I felt the story like could be a little weirder. Weird is good. Like The Ru Paul flight attendant character with three breasteses. The voice acting, I think, needs a little improvement. I can't remember the character's name, the suave, one-eyed guy... whoever did his voice, he was good.

The Normals-- awesome job.

Did I read Mark Mothersbaugh of Devo's name in the credits for music?

[BlueAngelGal]

IMO, the show was... interesting. It wasn't bad, but I haven't seen enough to say it's good, either, mostly because I'm not sure where it's going from here, what sort of plotline could come next.
Definitely keep Paul Reubens, though, 'cause he was awesome as Jet. Dennis Hopper was also good, though I couldn't tell it was him, and the rest of the cast was okay as well -- but I don't see much of a future for RuPaul's part, which saddens me, 'cause having RuPaul in it was pretty cool, too.
The soundtrack, btw, was awesome. I thought it was the B52's through the entire show, though, but when I saw it was Mark Mothersbaugh, I was glad, 'cause the music was great, and as long as he's on board, I know it will continue to be great. :)
Overall, this show is neat, but I'd have to see another episode or two to be able to totally judge it.

[citrusmiracle]

I cought was the Wings "Jet" reference

Notice that I said "cought" rather than the more common "caught". A few of you have apparently misunderstood this as an embarassing misspelling of quite a common word. This in fact is not the case. So here's a line from my dictionary (and please don't try to look up this word yourself, because I'm sure your dictionary isn't as cool as mine and thusly wouldn't contain the word in question)

cought (cót) v. The action of inventing dialogue, esp. creating jokes and attributing them to other people ex: I cought a really funny bit in A Bug's Life where the cockroach is talking about Franz Kafka. Get it, cause he's a cockroach? Metamorphesis!? Ha ha ha!

In actuality, the first time around I misheard "Jet, we've gotta get out of this place if it's the last thing we ever do." (which is a lyric from someone, although I can't remember from whom at the moment) and heard something like "Jet, I thought the only lonely place was the moon". Clearly, this is an easy mistake to make, since both lyrics soung strikingly similar, but in actuality I cought (meaning: invented) that joke. Just seems like a Wings reference would have been an easy take.

Thank you and good night.

[JetMaster5]

Originally posted by citrusmiracle
In actuality, the first time around I misheard "Jet, we've gotta get out of this place if it's the last thing we ever do." (which is a lyric from someone, although I can't remember from whom at the moment) and heard something like "Jet, I thought the only lonely place was the moon". Clearly, this is an easy mistake to make, since both lyrics soung strikingly similar, but in actuality I cought (meaning: invented) that joke. Just seems like a Wings reference would have been an easy take.

....what....the.....huh?

Can you please clarify it a bit more?

[steve]

I noticed that a lot of rude posts have been deleted, which seems to have left very little negative criticism. So I'd like to say up front that I strongly disliked the Groovenians, but that I'm going to try and respectfully explain why.


First of all there was the 3D animation style...

The plastic-surface dancing-desk-lamp glossy rendering style used in the Groovenians could have made a play for a retro-80's nostagia. But it did not. I frequently felt that it tried to bedazzle me with nothing more than rendering stunts that have been literally done for decades. it then failed to follow through with any point for these stylistics or any self-reflection on its use of the medium. Painting 80s-style 3D could be a sort of clever play with media. Making an 80's-style 3D cartoon today should be done with a more interesting and reflective idea in mind. Contrast this with other cartoons which use digital artwork (basically all cartoons at this point) but which are clever and aware of the technology as a tool rather than an end (Sealab 2021 jumps to mind....)

But far more important than the animation, the script of the show as a whole felt derivative and even condescending. I felt this very quickly at the beginning (which is the most important point in television) but I gave the show a chance. Unfortunately this impression became stronger throughout.

For example, when RuPaul said "everybody say hey!" and then -- without trying to make any kind of comment or joke or smirk or offer any reflective stance on the use of a painful cliche -- the characters respond: "everybody say ho!"... :rolleyes:

After sitting through the show up to that point, waiting for it to get going, I really had to physically stop myself from turning it off or looking to see what else was on.

And the reason I stopped myself from turning off the Groovenians -- a reason which I am frankly disappointed with myself for obeying -- was that this cartoon was billed as the work of brilliant talents and capital-a Artists. Something with wit, multiple layers, and complexity. Something which could stand up to intensive and thoughtful viewing. Something which had it's debut in museums fer chrissake!

But in the end it really just felt like children's programming done by people who don't have much contact with children. After all, the blood-soaked horrors of the original Grimms fairy tales were written for childeren. G-rated does not mean bland repetition of cereal commercial jingles. Adults and especially children can quickly see through such condescention...

I also strongly disliked the fact that the plot was supposed to be a semi-autobiographical tale of leaving the boring beige Valley and going to the kooky glamorous East Village. The attitude that everyone fun and creative and hip wants to go to the one-and-only truly hip place in the universe -- Groovenia/New York -- is a very boring attitude. If you have to go there just to express your creativity, how creative are you really? Notice that all the characters in the Goovenians seemed to talk almost exclusively about Groovenia (similar to some New Yorkers I've met). Do these people do or say anything else "creative" besides talking about moving to a more hip place to live? And once in "Groovenia" does this quest for a more hip place ever end?? What about Harlem? Is Queens groovy enough? Is Long Island groovy too? What about anywhere else in the universe? No? Oh well....

On a personal level, one thing that's particularly obnoxious about some loudly self-proclaimed "creative people" living in New York (or rather, certain parts of Manhattan) is that so many hip New Yorkers and hipster fans of New York seem to forget all about those pesky beige boroughs. Never mind New Jersey and Connecticut.... And if you're looking for beige or slate gray people, how about midtown on a weekday or the upper west side anytiime? How about those two wacky kids go spray some creative juice in the South Bronx and then see how far they can run before getting their asses kicked?

The grotesque mythology of New York (meaning lower Manhattan) as the eternal citadel of pure creativity is the painful propaganda of purest market capitalism. You don't go to New York to express your inner creativity -- you go there to sell your output and claw your way up the art market ladder. I realize this theme was strong in the Groovenians, but in the usual self-congratulatory way. A more interesting topic would have been how Groovenia is a massive clot of the once profitable cultural overlords who have now slid into vapid semi-retirement... but given the cast and staff of this cartoon, that theme would have been a little close to home, no?

To sum up, given the Groovenian theme of escaping the terrors of the work-a-day nuclear family for the terrors of work-a-day artsy hipsterdom, I think that I would only watch another episode of this cartoon if the characters dueled with those from Baby Blues. Preferably to the death. :)

It would have been good enough for the Brother's Grimm...

[FredNash]

I noticed that a lot of rude posts have been deleted, which seems to have left very little negative criticism.

Not all the posts that were deleted were negaive and rude, some were just hopelesly off-topic and weird...