Copyright Infridngement

[bassist]

I've seen lots of threads asking where certain videos or songs can be found. Now, we all should know by now that Matt shuts down all these threads, rightfully so, because it discusses illegal activities as seen by the Digital Millenium Copyright Act of 1998. The same act that protects artists from having their songs distributed across the internet via programs like the now defunct Napster was recently used to attempt to shut down Internet radio streams everywhere.

Internet radio is leading the wave of the future. Soon, if it works out, there will likely be all anime and all cartoon webcasts much like there are on Satellite TV and some cable streams. What makes these broadcasts different from downloading a video off the net, or just taping it and putting it on your computer or onto DVD yourself?

Where do all you stand on the issue of downloading vs. taping? And what defines the lines of right and wrong when museums claim that "art is owned by all?"

And, to specifically relate this to Adult Swim, how are we supposed to claim that by downloading an episode we missed and that won't be repeated soon, we are thereby breaking the law?

-Big Ben

[DougGoneMAD]

I think that downloading episodes is just like taping them. Some people here tape Adult Swim episodes, I download them. Downloading episodes is an alternative to taping them, and shouldn't be any less legal.

[William C. Maune]

[indent]The difference between the two is that with taping you are taping the network's broadcast for your own personal use. With the internet someone else is recording the broadcast and redistributing it without the broadcaster's consent.

[Zapages]

I taped all the whole Gundam 0083 series... I plan to show it when my cousins come over or my friends come over.. I never thought of using it as making a profit or anything evil... I have about 10 tapes filled with anime, Star Wars, and other movies/showes which I used to watch or still watch....

[Sheamon]

The difference between taping an anime show on TV and downloading it off the internet is that you're screwing the makers of the anime over if you download it. The anime companies get paid when you see it on TV, and the channel that shows it (whether its CN, Sci-Fi, PBS, whatever...) also benefits from the TV ratings and the fact that you see the advertisements from its sponsers. Thus, taping it off TV isn't such a big deal. But on the other end, downloading an episode of something not on TV (lets say Trigun for example) hurts the anime company since you're not seeing it by buying the DVD, or watching it on TV, where the channel paid the anime company to show it.

Dunno, I might feel differently if I had the ability to download episodes off the web ( only got a 56k!!! :( ), but there's no good reason IMO to download an episode off the web when its released in America and you can buy it.

[treehouse]

yeah, the way I understand it is the line is drawn at personal use. if the copies are made for personal use, then it is legal. so you can make copies of your DVD or CD or CD-ROM software, as long as it's for your own back-up purposes. if you distribute your copies to other people, it's illegal.

if you tape TV shows to show your cousins, it's legal as long as you don't give them possession of the tapes. you can take your tapes to show at friends' houses as long as you still retain ownership of them.
maybe you could make a permanent loan of your copies to another person. I'm not sure if that's a legal loophole. probably not

[Zechs]

Some people don't have acess to the shows that they are downloding and may not be able to see the otherwise. Besides it's not like everbody in the world is doing it if that was true then it the complaint would be truly valid. Pepole still buy CDs and anime I could see if most people stopped buying and started to download that mostlikely won't happen. I feel that you should try to buy it first adn if you can't find it then you can down load it adn with all the stores and ordeing formes an what not you really shouldn't have a problem finding an anime. I don't think it's all that bad I mean the compaines still sell to other people so what are they worried about.

[JCMoney]

Because you download/tape an episode, it doesnt mean you are not going to watch it when it airs. I am sure if CN released a tape/DVD with episodes on it, I'd buy it despite any episodes I have on my computer.

[Jimmy Kustes]

Well, you have to pay for cable or satillite dish in order to tape a program, but you don't have to have cable and satillite to watch the programs on the net.

To me, I always considered the commercials on cable as "extra". At least CN doesn't have too many commercials, but if the cable is already paid for, why do cable channels need ad revenue? Kellner thinks I'm the crook for not watching commercials, he's the crook for making people pay upwards of 40 bucks per month to watch commercial-filled programming! I might be wrong, but it cracks me up at how the cable and satillite companies can say "You pay us 40 bucks a month? You dead beat! You still have to watch commercials, just not as much as broadcast." But the difference between uncut, unedited, commercial-break free permium channels is 15 or 20 dollars more.

[William C. Maune]

[indent]Creating programming is expensive and the costs continue to rise. While the cost of cable pays for some of it that is not nearly enough. Some of the money from our cable bill does make it back to the networks, but a lot of it goes to the cable company. It takes the cable revenue that makes it back to the network, ad revenue, plus other revenue sources to make a network profitable and able to continue to produce more programming.

[i miss katy]

Distribution is the key as far as the legality goes. However, the "crime" is lessened somewhat with downloaded video. The quality is so far below broadcast quality that it's like the difference between copying cassette tapes and copying cds or downloading mp3s. While still technically against the law, there exists what my Media Law professor called a "technological disincentive" in downloaded video. It is a much less satisfactory product than the source, so it attracts less attention, because it doesn't hurt the market very much. The record companies weren't cracking down on people making tape copies of albums, or even sound files before .mp3 came along. It was when digital media allowed for perfect copies (or near-perfect in the case of mp3's) that they started to protest. Again, this doesn't change the actual legality of the practice at all, but can certainly ease the conscience if you need to.

[bassist]

Originally posted by i miss katy
The record companies weren't cracking down on people making tape copies of albums, or even sound files before .mp3 came along.
Actually, when cassettes first appeared on the market in the late 70s, early 80s, the record companies were greatly against releasing this medium to the public. They felt that by allowing blank tapes and dual tape decks onto the market, they were setting themsleves up to fall prey to a large copyright infrindgement ring, created by their own product. When they found that rather than copy entire tapes, most people made mix tapes, which distributed various music and actually helped sales, they started to back off, but not before requiring a fee from all blank tape manufacturers.

As to downloading vs. taping, if someone tapes something and then puts it into a digital format (like we see with AS episodes), it really isn't any different than making a copy of a video tape.

-Big Ben

[Killtacular]

If you tape a show and use a TV tuner to capture onto your computer, good.

If you download a show that you CAN watch on TV, in your home, but don't watch or tape it, you suck, and are breaking the law.

I really don't care if "you don't see why" it should be illegal. The fact is, it is. And until the law is changed, it's out of my hands. Closing down download threads is to keep the big wig companies from shutting our site down.

I don't know if you're aware of this, but one of the biggest websites on the internet, Dave's Videogame Classics, was shut down back in 1999 by the IDSA.

Why? They didn't HAVE computer game ROMs on their server. They MENTIONED SITES that had them. SIMPLY MENTIONING can get your site in big big trouble. And it doesn't even have to be you. Dave didn't say anything about where to get ROMS.


On a moral standpoint, downloading an episode SHOULD make you feel guilty because what you're doing is not just illegal but also keeps Williams St from being paid as much as they should. You may be saying "Oh, they're swimming in a pool of money", but Williams Street's budget is hideously LOW.

Not to mention the fact that some networks WILL cancel a show if the ratings drop out. Invader Zim would still be in production today if people (especially Neilson-selected people) didn't download episodes and avoid the reruns.

[ohmrbill]

All I have to say is that if it wasn't for me downloading the first episode of Escaflowne off the web, I never would have bought the entire series on DVD.

[atf487]

*edit for possible not liking of my repsonse*

[pzcman]

matt and trey parker don't care if people download south park episodes, heck, they encourage it! they say that they don't care how people see south park aslong as they like it.

[bassist]

Originally posted by atf487
Hypocrite. I've seen you on a site, with the letters "ci.onfuetm" (re arranged of course). Your're registered at the forums. The site got shutdown for being illegal. You stand for everything you despise. Unless you've changed (i'm trying too) don't believe him, kiddies.
That's totally uncalled for. What any of us does outside of this forum is not important or relevant to this discussion. Matt made an extremely good point that if we were to discuss downloading, this board could be shut down. Therefore, it is in our own interest not to. And on top of all that, this thread is discussing the merits and legal issues of downloading and taping, not whether or not we, any of us, commit illegal activities as seen by current law.

-Big Ben

[atf487]

Well, you're right. I still think it is slightly relevant to the topic, but whatever.

[Killtacular]

For your information, I signed up at the Fucinet board to inform them of upcoming schedules, just like I do for other AS forums and newsgroups, like OSK's.

So don't call me a "hypocrite."

I already have a TV tuner, so I have no need for episode downloads.

[Evil Dr. Reef]

If you can buy it on video, buy it.

If you can watch it on TV, watch it.

And before I get flamed with "You DL'ed the Cowboy Bebop movie!" posts, let me bring up my third point: If you have ABSOLUTELY no access to it, download it. I don't download Zim eps, ATHF eps, etc. because I want to watch them on TV. Besides the fact that my computer can hardly handle them. But anyway, even if I did DL the episodes, I still watch Invader Zim and Adult Swim every week. Why? I don't want the shows to go off the air! I watch to make sure there are still episodes TO watch. I know enough people with broadband connections that I'd never have to ever watch Adult Swim, but if everyone did that, there wouldn't BE an Adult Swim to watch. And going back to the Cowboy Bebop issue, when Knockin' on Heaven's Door comes out, I'm going to make sure that I'm one of the first people to buy it. Why, you ask? Why pay $30 for something I already own? Because I wan't the people who made the damn thing to get rewarded for it! Do you think Zim would've been cancelled if it was raking in millions of dollars every week? No! Do you think that Adult Swim would've even been CREATED if Cartoon Network didn't think that there was an opportunity to make money for it? No! Networks want money for shows. It's how shows stay on the air. It's why Zim was cancelled. As we've seen, Nickelodeon doesn't care about the fans of the show, they care about how much money they make off of it. It's why crappy shows like Rocket Power and The Wild Thornberries still run for 12 hours a day, instead of Zim & Spongebob.

So what was my final position? If you can watch it on TV, do it. It makes sure that more episodes get made. If you can buy it on tape/DVD, buy it. That way, you can not only fund the show, you can watch it anytime you want. And if you want to watch it whenever you want, TAPE IT. Don't DL it unless there's NO OTHER WAY you can see it. And if a way comes along? Do it.

[randomguy]

I'm completely and totally against downloading eps, emulation, mp3's, you name it. Yes, I'm a stick in the mud... but I see it as piracy. That extends to if you don't have access to it. I mean, I've always had a problem with all the people on these boards that own bootlegs or downloaded copies of the Cowboy Bebop movie.

[i miss katy]

Between the reduced quality and my 56k connection, I don't bother with downloading video, but does it really hurt ratings? Do people not bother with watching tv because they can watch it on a little 220 kbps realvideo file? I'm not suggesting that this has or should have any bearing on the legality, just wondering what effect it really has. Maybe it's just me. I tape a lot of series, but any show that I think is worth keeping an archive of is a show that I'm going to watch if it's on. It just seems to me that downloading a show is just a way to have it available anytime, not as a substitute to watching it when it's on. At least not rampantly enough that it has any tangible effect on TV ratings.

[Meson]

THis issue depends on the parties involved, and the purpose of the download. If the copyright owners release theus stuff for download, then go ahead. They want you to do it. For instance, there are several music artists who leak their own stuff to the net for the sole purpose for the fans to download. (The recording companies don't like it, but they probably won't do anything about it since they got some possible legal **** against them coming.) However, if the product is not meant for downloading, then no. You should then buy it/watch it if you can.

[Fata Morgana]

Originally posted by randomguy
I'm completely and totally against downloading eps, emulation, mp3's, you name it. Yes, I'm a stick in the mud... but I see it as piracy. That extends to if you don't have access to it. I mean, I've always had a problem with all the people on these boards that own bootlegs or downloaded copies of the Cowboy Bebop movie.

Out of curiousity, are you against fansubs too? What about if the person who buys the fansub always buys the legit version when it comes out?

Personally, I'm not against fansubs, as long as people don't use them as a replacement for the real thing. And I'm not against emulators either. I really don't see how you could be against those. . . I weep for Bleem. ;_; However, I'm also soft on an area most of you would probably frown on, which is downloading MP3s. As far as I'm concerned, it's akin to listening to the radio. As long as you only download for sampling purposes, I'm a-ok with it. Downloading MP3s has introduced me to all kinds of music that I never would have listened to otherwise (and has thus emptied my pocket book in the general direction of the new musicians I learned to appreciate). As for downloading video, I think it's acceptable to download fansubs, but not programs that are readily available to you through purchase or broadcast. I also think it's OK to download video of programs that are American made, but can no longer be acquired here. For example, the lost episodes of The Maxx (not that I know anybody who has those). Since MTV won't release them, if I were able to find a place to download those episodes you can bet your bottom dollar that I would download them.

Fata Morgana

[Ajax]

Originally posted by Matt Wilson
If you tape a show and use a TV tuner to capture onto your computer, good.

If you download a show that you CAN watch on TV, in your home, but don't watch or tape it, you suck, and are breaking the law.

I really don't care if "you don't see why" it should be illegal. The fact is, it is. And until the law is changed, it's out of my hands. Closing down download threads is to keep the big wig companies from shutting our site down.

I don't know if you're aware of this, but one of the biggest websites on the internet, Dave's Videogame Classics, was shut down back in 1999 by the IDSA.

Why? They didn't HAVE computer game ROMs on their server. They MENTIONED SITES that had them. SIMPLY MENTIONING can get your site in big big trouble. And it doesn't even have to be you. Dave didn't say anything about where to get ROMS.


On a moral standpoint, downloading an episode SHOULD make you feel guilty because what you're doing is not just illegal but also keeps Williams St from being paid as much as they should. You may be saying "Oh, they're swimming in a pool of money", but Williams Street's budget is hideously LOW.

Not to mention the fact that some networks WILL cancel a show if the ratings drop out. Invader Zim would still be in production today if people (especially Neilson-selected people) didn't download episodes and avoid the reruns.


What color is the sky in your world, I don't think anybody feels guilty when they download an episode from the internet, or even care who it is affecting when they do so. Downloading ep. from the internet is sure hell better then waiting for them to come out on T.V. Even if you are breaking the law, it's not like the police is going to go to ever house in the U.S. and check if anybody is downloading stuff illegally.

[bassist]

Originally posted by Comic Book Guy
I don't think anybody feels guilty when they download an episode from the internet, or even care who it is affecting when they do so. Downloading ep. from the internet is sure hell better then waiting for them to come out on T.V. Even if you are breaking the law, it's not like the police is going to go to ever house in the U.S. and check if anybody is downloading stuff illegally.
I've had 3 friends arrested and prosecuted for piracy of some sort or another. It happens. I've seen people expelled from college and also banned from internet usage. The government often prosecutes piracy under the same statutes as hacking. And while neither is malicious, both are considered illegal and punishable by law.

It's true that prosecution is rare, but because of that, when it comes, it comes out of nowhere. All 3 of my friends said that they were offered reduced fines if they "named names" of other piraters and that they basically are being watched 24/7 as far as internet activity, email, and message boards.

Trust me, it's not pretty.

-Big Ben

[Killtacular]

Downloading ep. from the internet is sure hell better then waiting for them to come out on T.V.

You're a sad, sad man.

I'll keep you on my Pity List today.

[Lindsay]

What if you download an episode that has the commercials in place from its tv broadcast? o.o;

[Ajax]

Originally posted by Matt Wilson


You're a sad, sad man.


Likewise.

[fignuts16]

i tape shows off of adult swim for my friends that don't get cartoon network (yes i'm one of the only kids in my town with CN)
so i guess tecnically thats legal. uh i guess.

[Evil Dr. Reef]

Originally posted by fignuts16
i tape shows off of adult swim for my friends that don't get cartoon network (yes i'm one of the only kids in my town with CN)
See? This is what I don't have a problem with. At least you're pulling in the ratings for CN, and exposing friends to something that they otherwise wouldn't have a chance to see. It's better than downloading the episodes, and making one less viewer for CN to get ratings cash from.

[ohmrbill]

Originally posted by randomguy
I'm completely and totally against downloading eps, emulation, mp3's, you name it. Yes, I'm a stick in the mud... but I see it as piracy.

Emulation has been deemed perfectly legal by the U.S. courts, guy. Now copying ROMs, on the other hand...

And just out of curiosity, do you have anything against breaking the region code?

[treehouse]

Originally posted by fignuts16

i tape shows off of adult swim for my friends that don't get cartoon network (yes i'm one of the only kids in my town with CN)
Originally posted by Evil Dr. Reef

See? This is what I don't have a problem with. At least you're pulling in the ratings for CN, and exposing friends to something that they otherwise wouldn't have a chance to see. It's better than downloading the episodes, and making one less viewer for CN to get ratings cash from.
but someone who digitizes an episode for download does the same thing. the digitizer is "pulling in the ratings for CN," and is "exposing friends to something that they otherwise wouldn't have a chance to see" by making them available for download or putting them on a CD-ROM. it's the same thing, just a different format (disc rather than VHS).

[i miss katy]

It's better than downloading the episodes, and making one less viewer for CN to get ratings cash from.

This is what I was talking about earlier. It's as though once you download a show, you'll never watch it on tv again under any circumstances. If someone's interested enough in a show to take the time to download it and then watch it in a (in most cases) rough, digitized format on their computer, then they'll likely be interested enough to watch it on television. Downloading movies doesn't do much to eat into ticket sales, what it does is cut into video/dvd sales. This would be lessened even further with television, because it doesn't even involve paying for a ticket. (granted, you pay for cable, but not for individual shows). Does anyone really think that if no episode of Invader Zim had ever been downloaded, the show would still be being made? I just can't imagine it has that noticeable an effect on tv ratings.

[Zechs]

I agree Zim wasn't taken off because of too much downlodaing kids who watch nick aren't into that kind of thing any more they seem to be into show that show real life situations hence As told by Ginger and rocket power are doing so well. As for the whole downloding thing I plan to get a burner at some point and the only things I want to burn are old songs that they really don't play on the raido anymore and the CD's are eather really hard to find or are out of print and I wouldn't have them other wise.

[ZorBrak]

::edit::
Morally spekaing, I am very mixed on the issue, for currently running shows, I say it's almost always wrong, especially if what you have downloaded is for sale in your country through the ones who have created the content. On the issue of things like adult swim, tape them DON'T download them...but if SGC2C leaves air, and CN doesn't put it on DVD....well ::shuts mouth::
let's go to another subject shall we?
::edit::

well ::looks around for lawyers:: I only download anime episodes to sample an anime I have never seen, I don't want to go and smack down 20 bucks for something if I don't like it, in my case Kazaa has made me give the anime companies MORE money, because otherwise I wouldn't have bought the disc, I mean if I like a show why would I settle for a 50 mb crappy sound and visual quality version when it's available on DVD?

Finally, to brush upon a somewhat forebidden subject....
I think if WB gets mad over the discussion of others saying they have downloaded episodes of Batman Beyond, etc. etc. then they better make the show available on DVD. If they want to whine to Toon Zone about losing money to those who link to episode sites and such, they better be able to back that up ...chances are...any episodes being downloaded...probably aren't on DVD, so if WB doesn't give the fans the episodes on home video, they ARE GOING TO find other means! that's just the way it is. So In my blunt opinion WB needs to put it's money where it's mouth is, if they want to have their episodes to NOT be downloaded, the episodes need to be available through them. It reminds me of a certain website I knew of once, it distributed episodes of Space Ghost Coast 2 Coast, now Cartoon Network sent them a very nasty, demanding and threatening letter saying to shut down their operations immediatly. BUT! is Space Ghost Coast 2 Coast available on DVD? I think NOT, if the show where on DVD and the site was still open and distributing episodes, that would be MUCH, MUCH different. It's like if you had a plate of food that you don't to eat anymore of, but still refuse to let anyone else have it. I think it's mostly just something companies use as an excuse to release their rabid lawyers onto the throats loyal fans...that's really pathetic.

[Evil Dr. Reef]

Originally posted by Treehouse
but someone who digitizes an episode for download does the same thing. the digitizer is "pulling in the ratings for CN," and is "exposing friends to something that they otherwise wouldn't have a chance to see" by making them available for download or putting them on a CD-ROM. it's the same thing, just a different format (disc rather than VHS).
Very true. But you can't reach hundreds, if not thousands, with one video tape. You can with digital, downloadable episodes, and that's why DLing them isn't a good idea. It's the same basic format, it's just that downloadable episodes make it so less people will theoretically watch the same thing on TV. Which brings me to another point.

Originally posted by i miss katy
It's as though once you download a show, you'll never watch it on tv again under any circumstances. If someone's interested enough in a show to take the time to download it and then watch it in a (in most cases) rough, digitized format on their computer, then they'll likely be interested enough to watch it on television.
Exactly. When I used to DL Space Ghost episodes (mostly the new ones), I'd still watch SGC2C on Adult Swim. Like I said earlier, my computer can't handle digital video very well, and the video I was getting wasn't that good to begin with. So I watched, if for nothing else, to see a better copy of a show I already had. It's not like once I had an episode on my computer, if I saw it on AS, I'd say "Oh. I've got that episode, I don't need to watch it again". I realize that some people do this, but I'm doubt that it's a very high number.

Boy, it sure sounds like I'm contradicting myself, doesn't it? I just have a mixed opinion on the subject. I don't mind downloading episodes if you can't see them otherwise, but if you have a chance to watch them other than getting them off the internet, you shuold do it. Just remember, every time you don't watch an episode of Sealab or Aqua Teen Hunger Force on Adult Swim , Williams' Street gets less money to make more episodes.

[bassist]

Originally posted by Evil Dr. Reef
you can't reach hundreds, if not thousands, with one video tape.
You'd be surprised. Just look at what sort of cultural phenomenon the Grateful Dead created by encouraging the trading of show bootlegs. There are hundreds and thousands of copies being moved between fans every day.

On the other hand, that sort of trading also increases the number of people going to shows, which in turn creates revenue for the band and not the greedy bastards at the record companies.

The question you really need to ask yourself is: By downloading these shows, am I helping the cause or hurting it?

Once you can answer that, you should know whether it's right or wrong.

-Big Ben

[treehouse]

Originally posted by Evil Dr. Reef

Very true. But you can't reach hundreds, if not thousands, with one video tape. You can with digital, downloadable episodes, and that's why DLing them isn't a good idea. It's the same basic format, it's just that downloadable episodes make it so less people will theoretically watch the same thing on TV.
true, you can't reach 100s or 1000s with one video tape copy, anymore than you can reach 100s or 1000s with a single downloadable copy. but you can reach 100s or 1000s with multiple video copies, just as you can with multiple downloadable copies. yes, it is possible to make more that one video tape copy of something. here in New York, video tape piracy is quite a profitable business. one can find illegal vendors all over the place.

I realize that digital copies are more of a threat to the industry than tape copies since digital copies are much easier to distribute, but that doesn't make tape copies any less illegal.

[Evil Dr. Reef]

Originally posted by Treehouse
I realize that digital copies are more of a threat to the industry than tape copies since digital copies are much easier to distribute, but that doesn't make tape copies any less illegal.
This is also true. But the vibe I got from fignuts16's earler post was that he/she taped the episodes, and lent them out, not charged for them. If he/she DID charge, then I'd get angry, because it's just as bad as piracy, and worse than downloading the episodes.

[treehouse]

Originally posted by Evil Dr. Reef

This is also true. But the vibe I got from fignuts16's earler post was that he/she taped the episodes, and lent them out, not charged for them. If he/she DID charge, then I'd get angry, because it's just as bad as piracy, and worse than downloading the episodes.
well, people who make digital copies available online don't charge for them either.
so you're saying handing out digital or tape copies of shows is okay as long as people don't charge for them (?)

[Evil Dr. Reef]

No... what I'm saying is that I don't mind someone lending a friend a copy of this week's Sealab if said friend either can't/didn't watch it. I, myself, do it. I don't charge to rent them, I just let them borrow my tape (since I almost never have a chance to watch AS "live", I tape it each week), and ask for it back by Sunday night so I can record the new episodes too. I don't transfer them to other tapes, I don't digitize them, I just tape them Sunday night so I can watch them Monday afternoon.

[bassist]

The other thing to remember is that copying a video tape reduces quality while making a digital copy does not. Of course, what you find online isn't the greatest quality in the first place, but you get what you pay for???

-Big Ben

[treehouse]

Originally posted by Evil Dr. Reef
No... what I'm saying is that I don't mind someone lending a friend a copy
and why should you mind? after all, it's perfectly legal. of course, that's one less viewer watching the Adult Swim broadcast, but you can also argue that it will lure more viewers.
Originally posted by bassist
Of course, what you find online isn't the greatest quality in the first place
except when it comes to MP3s

[Evil Dr. Reef]

Originally posted by Treehouse
and why should you mind? after all, it's perfectly legal. of course, that's one less viewer watching the Adult Swim broadcast, but you can also argue that it will lure more viewers.
THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING!!! I don't mind someone showing a copy of Adult Swim to a friend as long as the don't distribute it. Otherwise, what's the difference from downloading it?

[treehouse]

Originally posted by Matt Wilson
No.

You can't just assume that everyone that downloads an episode doesn't have access to the TV show. I would estimate that 80% of episode downloaders CAN view the show. The number of international viewers is not as big as you think.
Yes.

I'm neither assuming, nor did I state, that everyone that downloads an episode doesn't have access to the TV show. certainly some who download don't have cable access, just as some who download do have access and watch, and some who download have access and don't watch, and some who don't download don't have access and don't watch, etc.

[Fata Morgana]

Originally posted by Matt Wilson
Do you think everyone that downloads MP3 is honest enough to buy a CD if they download ALL of the tracks? I'm not saying noone is, but I know a high number of people will simply burn a CD instead of buying a CD.

Actually, I'm not sure this is true. I think that CD sales actually _rise_ when people have access to the MP3s before they buy, and statistics back me up. Honesty? Honesty has nothing to do with it. The fact is, when you download an MP3, or even all the MP3s from an album, if you really dig the songs you have trouble not buying the CD. Back when Napster was still around, I would only download MP3s if I had some spare cash on hand, because I knew that downloading/listening to new songs will send me into a buying frenzy that I could ill afford.

And I'm not even saying that I'm OK with downloading episodes (unless you have absolutely no access to the shows any other way). I just don't think the issue is as clear cut as you make out.

Another thing, it IS illegal for you to make a VHS recording of a television show and give it or lend it to you best bud. Just as illegal as uploading a show to the internet for download.

Fata Morgana

[Zechs]

It's all about the money. The thing is most people that burn still buy CDs. Most people only burn certian songs that they like and don't wanna buy the whole cause the rest songs suck that happend to me once I bought a CD and only liked two songs on it. As a girl I know said it became nothing more than a $15 coster and I wad pretty unhapy about waisting my cash. Buring the whole CD is diffrent if you can't aford it then you most likey don't need it. Yes it's illege and only because it takes cash form places which already have a lot of money they want every little penny they can get downloding to them is a money stealing pice of s*** that should be banned forever. The funny thing is that some basement bands depend on it to help them get their music out without it they would not have a fanbase and would fade to black. All in all downloading has it's good and bad points and like everything else people will countiue to abuse it. No matter what and like the roach dowloading will never truly go away.

[Ajax]

Originally posted by Zechs
It's all about the money. The thing is most people that burn still buy CDs. Most people only burn certian songs that they like and don't wanna buy the whole cause the rest songs suck that happend to me once I bought a CD and only liked two songs on it. As a girl I know said it became nothing more than a $15 coster and I wad pretty unhapy about waisting my cash. Buring the whole CD is diffrent if you can't aford it then you most likey don't need it. Yes it's illege and only because it takes cash form places which already have a lot of money they want every little penny they can get downloding to them is a money stealing pice of s*** that should be banned forever. The funny thing is that some basement bands depend on it to help them get their music out without it they would not have a fanbase and would fade to black. All in all downloading has it's good and bad points and like everything else people will countiue to abuse it. No matter what and like the roach dowloading will never truly go away.


What you are saying is very true. They put CD Burners on are computers for a reason, may be not to burn illegally but you get the picture. Well, I keep reading on how this affects WS, especially by you Matt. Well wheres your Bleeding heart for all the other companys. You said, that by doing these things, its going to bankrupt WS. Who gives a S***. Take a look at the poll, no one cares. It's a lot better to tape or download a ep and watch whenever you want then to watch it at there time. Its a lot better to burn a CD with all your favorite songs then to buy a dozen CDs just to here those particular songs. We are in a day in age where we have the technology to do this. Please don't sit there and tell me people will not use it just so they can play nice and not hurt anybody.

[bassist]

Originally posted by Fata Morgana
Actually, I'm not sure this is true. I think that CD sales actually _rise_ when people have access to the MP3s before they buy, and statistics back me up.
For every statistic you show me, I can show you two that state the exact opposite. From research studies during the napster suit, it appears that as napster got popular, sales rose, but only for the first 3-4 months, and then fell sharply, even below what they were before.

You can find statistics to back up any claim (since claims like that have statisticians paid for by record companies and software companies alike). The same is true for anything. One of the hormones in Milk, approved by the FDA, is proven to cause cancer, yet it's still put in because the company that porduces has 3 officials on the FDA board. Even worse, two journalists from a Fox affiliated network tried to tell people about it, and now they're blacklisted from journalism because of the hold said company has over News Corp. (Fox's parent company).

I know that's somewhat off topic, but the point is that journalism is biased. I'm a journalism major and the majority of my classmates are self-righteous, scum-sucking bastards. So believe the statistics if you want, but nothing you hear from any "official" source can ever be truly trusted without a little bit of research.

-Big Ben

[atf487]

What you are saying is very true. They put CD Burners on are computers for a reason, may be not to burn illegally but you get the picture. Well, I keep reading on how this affects WS, especially by you Matt. Well wheres your Bleeding heart for all the other companys. You said, that by doing these things, its going to bankrupt WS. Who gives a S***. Take a look at the poll, no one cares. It's a lot better to tape or download a ep and watch whenever you want then to watch it at there time. Its a lot better to burn a CD with all your favorite songs then to buy a dozen CDs just to here those particular songs. We are in a day in age where we have the technology to do this. Please don't sit there and tell me people will not use it just so they can play nice and not hurt anybody.

Wow. If you download the episodes, YOU WON'T GET ANY MORE. That means, downloading episodes that you don't watch is even worse then just downloading them. (I watch every ep, btw)



Take Morals 101.

[Zechs]

As for the whols morals thing it really shouldn't come into play here. The big compines are to stupid to join with these dowmloding compines and reach a middle ground that could help get them (the big compaines) more money. By making the user sing an agrment to pay a monthly fee and snice the downloding company does it for free the big company could take all of the money (depending on how many companies are singed on) or a certian precentage. But like all big compianes they want to squash the compation so they can make the most money. Like when napster said they would charge a montly fee and pay the big compines for using their music they were turned down. It's all about the money now or days and do you think that's a good moral standard?

As for downloading insead of watching it on T.V come on man is it that hard to sit in fornt of the tube or buy a tape to tape it on so you can watch it later.

[Morgan Sloat]

What if you do both? I watch everything on TV downloaded or not, when it's on I am glued to the tv. Downloading gives a copy for whent hey stop showing it, or you can;t find it anymore. For example I wish I had copies of Pirates of Darkwater. They don't show it, and I can't find it un-pirated.

[SpaceCowboy]

I think it's perfectly fine to download shows, just as long as they aren't available commercially on video format.

[Killtacular]

What you are saying is very true. They put CD Burners on are computers for a reason,

To backup information, to provide a larger capacity disc than a floppy, and to give computer musicians an outlet to put their sequenced tracks on.

Well, I keep reading on how this affects WS, especially by you Matt. Well wheres your Bleeding heart for all the other companys.

I don't see any company that's pertinent to this discussion, as downloading episodes has only gotten popular as of recently.

I will say that I was very annoyed by people that downloaded the Clerks episodes before the DVD came out. I mean, buy the freakin' DVD, man. I hate Kevin Smith as much as most people, but I plonked down some cash.

Who gives a S***. Take a look at the poll, no one cares. It's a lot better to tape or download a ep and watch whenever you want then to watch it at there time.

It's not that noone cares, they just have no moral qualm about it, and for that, I pity them.

Why do you talk as if WS is "The Man"? And judging by your immaturity, I do believe your Sunday nights are open and available to tune in to Cartoon Network.

Its a lot better to burn a CD with all your favorite songs then to buy a dozen CDs just to here those particular songs. We are in a day in age where we have the technology to do this. Please don't sit there and tell me people will not use it just so they can play nice and not hurt anybody.

Yeah, who cares about people trying to making an honest job. Screw them, right? They shouldn't be allowed to afford bills, or bring the bread home! I mean, I'm sure it's so easy for you to pay bills or-- oh wait, you don't, do you? I'm sure it's easy for your PARENTS then.

[ZorBrak]

I still say if it's not on DVD and you will still watch it on TV, but want it on home video.... tape it. if it's no longer on tv or there's an episode you realllllllly wanna see again like say for something like space ghost....well then that's OK IMO (maybe not legally but I'm talking morals) because I am aware there have been some episodes not aired in ages....just make sure you still watch it if it does air again...and tape it to, since in reality tape quality still beats out anything you can DL and burn to a VCD.

If there's a show or something on DVD, IMO if it's not on TV, it's ok to sample an episode of it if you haven't seen it. I mean geez, #1 who would be content with crappy 100 mb MPEG when you can have it on glorious DVD #2 if you haven't seen a darn show...like an anime....well then don't buy it till you try it, if they want your money then that's fine, after all it is their content, but make sure you LIKE the content your buying.

[randomguy]

Out of curiousity, are you against fansubs too? What about if the person who buys the fansub always buys the legit version when it comes out?
Emulation has been deemed perfectly legal by the U.S. courts, guy. Now copying ROMs, on the other hand...
And just out of curiosity, do you have anything against breaking the region code?


Well, in emulation's case, I was well-aware of the legality of the whole software/hardware thing... I was assuming that everyone knew I meant ROMS. Sorry.

Anyhow, on fansubs and region codebreaking, I'll be honest. I don't know. I'm smart enough to admit to myself that they're thorny issues and I'm really not comfortable at this point taking a stance... both sides have their points. I will say that I despise anyone who makes a profit of a fansub. My local anime shop, for example, rents fansubs of Ghibli movies, making money off them, which I find despicable.