Video Game Stuff (Doom for the 2600)

[Romanesque]

Alright, anyone gonna kill me for bringing up this topic here? Eh? Well, I've no other idea where to put it...

Anyway, yeah... there was a Doom 2600 hoax. Came and went. But just a couple years ago, id released the Doom source code to the public, and hell broke loose... (lame joke).

Now Doom is being ported to just about everything except digital toasters... Wouldn't surprise me if someone attempted to create an actual 2600 port. Only problem is that a direct port would be basically impossible. However, since a number of existing "ports" of Doom were actually built from scratch, one can't completely rule it out.

Only way to know for sure is to find a 2600 emulator, and track down the supposed Doom port...

Romey
--Useless Post

[The Mad Hatter]

Ah, video game discussion! That's up my alley, somehow I got roped into doing a video game review column, so I certainly keep up with the industry. Then again, I've tried to talk games before, and it's usually devolved into arguments over semantics and hare-brained business ideas.

Anyway, 2600 Doom... admittedly, I don't have time to delve into "homebrewed" games or fan modifications beyond some dabbling with emulators. (And is it just me, or has there been a crackdown onemulators lately? Awfully hard to find that stuff lately.) So, right now, I have no idea if the assertion that there really is a 2600 Doom out there is true. But I wonder, even if there was one, how playable would it be? I imagine it would simply be pushing the joystick to move between static backgrounds with occasional button-pressing to eliminate a popping-up enemy. I would wonder if it would be up to the level of even a sub-par marketable game. Admittedly, there could be a truly nifty 2600 version, in which case I will welcome some amazement. But, for now, I'll keep a healthy dose of skepticism.

Actually, doesn't Colin talk games occasionally? And if he's here, did he ever manage to beat FFIX?

[Romanesque]

As I see it, this is one of the few things we've barely touched upon around here, with only a stray gaming post popping up at random. But there's really a lot to be said, if only enough people were interested.

Ah, video game discussion! That's up my alley, somehow I got roped into doing a video game review column, so I certainly keep up with the industry.

I've been keeping up as best I can, myself... very little time to sit down and play games, what with college and all. Darn college projects taking up every spare moment.

Still keeping myself up to date on the industry, though... and I expect to get a lot more involved next year, once I start delving into higher level CS courses. With more time devoted to programming, setting aside some of it for the college game development scene seems natural. (And what a scene we've got going...)

I've completely missed out on all the stuff going on around my campus lately, involving presentations by hardware companies like ATI, stuff with Valve, and a rather interesting Pong development contest... ::sigh:: ...Ah well, I've still got two more years to go. =X

Anyway, 2600 Doom... admittedly, I don't have time to delve into "homebrewed" games or fan modifications beyond some dabbling with emulators.

Egads, you don't know what you're missing out on! Sure there's a lot of garbage out there, but if you know what you're looking for and take the time to familiarize yourself with the "who's who" you'll find that there's a lot of gems out there.

I'm not talking about simple "fan games" or "modifications"... There are people out there giving games like Doom complete overhauls, new rendering engines, even recodings of the engine from the ground up.

So, right now, I have no idea if the assertion that there really is a 2600 Doom out there is true. But I wonder, even if there was one, how playable would it be? I imagine it would simply be pushing the joystick to move between static backgrounds with occasional button-pressing to eliminate a popping-up enemy.

If there is a 2600 Doom, I can pretty much guarantee it's in 3D. Why? Because the whole situation with Doom ports to bizzare platforms is basically about pushing coding to the limits of efficiency... no matter how absurd those limits may be (Like the Doom ports for digital cameras). I'm also sure a 3D 2600 Doom *would* be nearly unplayable... but that's not the point. And it also would only exist in ROM form, to be used with a 2600 emulator. Not too many people have the equipment to make 2600 hardware, that I know of...

I would wonder if it would be up to the level of even a sub-par marketable game. Admittedly, there could be a truly nifty 2600 version, in which case I will welcome some amazement. But, for now, I'll keep a healthy dose of skepticism.

Once again, marketability isn't the point either, at least in the case of a 2600 port. Call it a "macho programmer" thing. If someone did do this, I think they've proved their worth as a competant programmer.

But before you brush this whole Doom port thing off, I want you to keep in mind that not *all* of them are about getting Doom to run on the equivalents of pocket calculators. It's just a small niche.

Most are trying to push the engine in the other direction, with OpenGL rendering, enhanced graphics, new map formats, and all sorts of other spiffy stuff that no one ever thought possible with this type of engine.

Top three such ports to be discussed in later posts: jDoom, Edge, zDoom.

All three are still in major development, but keep in mind that the source code to Doom was only released two years ago. Still, what they've accomplished thus far has been astounding.

Other people are taking the engine in yet other directions. How about Doom as a system administration tool? Better yet, how about using the Doom environment as an OS GUI? These are the sort of things using Doom as a conceptual springboard.

But how can one finish a Doom discussion without mentioning... Total Conversions! (Waits for everyone to run screaming in horror). Now just hold on, there are some *great* TC's out there, especially now that folks can mess with the source code... though to be truthfull, they push the edge towards being all new games merely based on the Doom engine. I'll discuss these in further detail later.

Actually, doesn't Colin talk games occasionally? And if he's here, did he ever manage to beat FFIX?

Haven't heard much from Colin lately... He's busy with graduation matters. =)

Romey
--Now how about that Doom 3, eh? Anyone? Wow.

[The Mad Hatter]

You certainly do bring up some good points, and in doing so you revealed my vast wealth of ignorance about what programmers are doing in their spare time. I'd gladly investigate what's out there, particularly the total conversions (I've heard about plenty of those), but like you, I don't quite have the time. Also, I'm generally wrapped up in trying to keep up with all the commercial stuff out there (more on that later), so I think that may be coloring my perceptions a little bit. While I can certainly appreciate some good top of the line programming in commercial releases, I haven't had much exposure to, as you say, getting amazing performances out of a pocket calculator. Not to mention that you have an advantage being in college, surrounded by programmers each with a nifty high-speed internet connection. Probably some education is simply in order on my part... maybe if it isn't too far on the opposite side of legality, you could point me in the general direction of people who have rebuilt Doom, or crafted it for other systems?

Which reminds me, I've asked PF over e-mail if he'd point me to the 2600 Doom he said he played, so hopefully we can look into that soon.

Doom 3... lookin' good.

Anyway, back to my commercially-tinted view of things, just for context. I play a _lot_ of games for my game review column. Because of the nature of the biz, the companies pretty much send me all their major releases through their PR firms, since it's free publicity. It all averages out to around 3-5 games per week. Game heaven, right?

Well, not quite. I generally have to review two games a week, which means I have to play two _different_ games each week, no matter what else I'm doing. So even if I'm wrapped up in a ginormous masterpiece like, say, Baldur's Gate II, I have to stop playing it so I can review the next thing down the pipeline. And I have to give each game a good deal of attention to get a feel for it, even if it sucks. And I'm doing this freelance, so this is in my spare time. So often I don't have time to simply play for recreation, especially since I like having a social life occasionally. Now you know why I haven't been able to investigate independant games much at all.

Though I have to say there are plenty of upsides. I get to play great games like BGII, Conker's Bad Fur Day and Black and White for free. I get sent lots of random things I'd never be able to expose myself to otherwise, like Sega's wacky Maracas controllers for Samba de Amigo. (They're truly fun in a ludicrous way, but not worth shelling out $80 on top of the cost of the game for.) I got a PlayStation 2 for free. And... I'm getting to go to E3 this year! Woo hoo! (I'll gladly give a full report to anyone who cares.) So all in all, it's a pretty nifty gig I've managed to blunder into.

What does this have to do with anything? Err....

[Psycho Fox]

:I'm also sure a 3D 2600 Doom *would* be nearly unplayable... but that's not the point. And it also would only exist in ROM form, to be used with a 2600 emulator. Not too many people have the equipment to make 2600 hardware, that I know of...

Yup, The MOS-6507 is just the slightest bit underpowered :D but I think the biggest problem is the 256 bytes of ram which is far too small for 3D

:And it also would only exist in ROM form, to be used with a 2600 emulator. Not too many people have the equipment to make 2600 hardware, that I know of...

You could get a 2600 off e-bay of a flemarket and just burn the romimage onto a eprom.

[Romanesque]

You certainly do bring up some good points, and in doing so you revealed my vast wealth of ignorance about what programmers are doing in their spare time.

And of course, a lot of the folks working on the Doom ports are also programmers by day, if you hadn't already guessed. Code by day, code by night, code code code code code...

I'd gladly investigate what's out there, particularly the total conversions, but like you, I don't quite have the time. Also, I'm generally wrapped up in trying to keep up with all the commercial stuff out there, so I think that may be coloring my perceptions a little bit.

The problem with a lot of commercially released games is that publishers play too big a role in what games get put out there. That's part of why we see so many copycat titles and so few genres, because most publishers are hesitent to put money behind something that hasn't been proven. (Sound familiar?) Thankfully, the industry is still fresh enough so that a lot of truly innovative games do get created now and then.

From a pure gaming POV, the non-commercial developments are equally viable entertainment. Heck, a lot of the people making modifications and source ports today will likely be the ones making the commercial games of tomorrow. No, you may not find the latest cutting edge graphics (though sometimes you will), but you will find a lot of refreshing creativity in design and gameplay. Just have to look for it.

While I can certainly appreciate some good top of the line programming in commercial releases, I haven't had much exposure to, as you say, getting amazing performances out of a pocket calculator.

Never really played any of the "pocket calculator" material myself, actually...

Not to mention that you have an advantage being in college, surrounded by programmers each with a nifty high-speed internet connection.

The high-speed connection isn't really that big a deal for Doom development. It might be for say, anything after Quake, but the Doom stuff tends to be manageable through a 56k modem. (No infernal lightmaps)

Maybe if it isn't too far on the opposite side of legality, you could point me in the general direction of people who have rebuilt Doom, or crafted it for other systems?

Very little legal trouble. Certainly more legal than ROMS. In fact, so long as you own a legal copy of Doom 2 (most of the ports require doom2.wad to run) there's no problem. You can even get away running the shareware version of Doom. All the code stuff has been GPL'd. Even if you don't have Doom, there are still a lot of ports you can download and run with no trouble. All depends on the port.

Also, Doom has pretty much been ported commercially to quite a few systems, so there's little incentive to port what's been ported. No, these Doomers have more lofty goals... to which, yes, I shall now point you!



jDoom - Probably the port with the most beautiful graphics. Hasn't been updated in a while, because the programmer's enlisted. A decent video card & sound card required to get the full experience... This one's my fave.

http://www.newdoom.com/jdoom/

EDGE - The Total Conversion designer's dream. Doom reprogrammed from the ground up. Recall how Doom couldn't render "floors over floors"? It can now, and so much more. Too many features to mention. The true demonstration of this engine, however, is yet to be released...

http://edge.sourceforge.net/

QDoom - Quake done Doom style. Total Conversion of Quake to Doom, using EDGE. But no, it's not simply a rehash of Quake either. I've played the Demo, and I'm looking forward to the full release... which is only awaiting the next version of EDGE.

http://doomworld.com/fanatic/

zDoom - Another Total Conversion designer's dream. Currently working out a lot of bugs, however. Again, too many features to mention. Also check out zDoomGL

http://zdoom.notgod.com/

http://doomworld.com/doomgl/zdoomgl.html

Zan Zan - Certainly the best TC for zDoom. zDoomGL, to be specific. Short, but very original...

http://www.doomworld.com/zanzan/main.shtml

Doom Legacy - Yes, yet another enhanced port with too much to mention.

http://www.newdoom.com/doomlegacy/

Sonic Robo Blast 2 - Still in development, but looking good. Based on the Legacy engine.

http://stjr.emulationzone.org/srb2/

Doom SysAdmin - Just one of several for Linux.

http://www.cs.unm.edu/~dlchao/flake/doom/

That's barely scratching the surface, but I hope it'll give you a headstart, should you ever find the time to give these things a spin. Check doomworld.com for updates on pretty much all of the above.



Re: Doom 3... lookin' good.

Heh. There's an understatement. ;-)

Per-pixel lighting I say! Per-pixel lighting! No more lightmaps, no more graphical hacks, no more binary space partitions! No more brushes, instead: curved surfaces everywhere! Soft shadows! The CPU freed of graphics processing! The technological leap is bigger than the one between Wolfenstein and Doom... bigger than the leap between Doom and Quake... oy vey. Even if the game play isn't up to par, the graphics engine is going to leave everyone else behind.

And yeah, I think I get the point about not having much time left to pursue non-commercial gaming. ;-)

Romey

[Romanesque]

I decided to move this thread over to the main board, in hopes of bringing it some more attention. Let's see how it works...

Romey
--Finals Today... Wish me luck!

[The Mad Hatter]

Public discussion! Yay! Err... well, I don't really have anything to add, I haven't had time to check out the links you gave me. (What about those two hours you spent downloading Futurama episodes?)(Shut up! Don't tell them that!)

Or I could blather on some more about PR people's attempts to make me think that games like Smurf Racer are exciting.

[killercroc]

So where can I get a free copy of doom on the web? I'm not asking for anything illegal. I just assume that if the code is public domain that the game is out there somewhere for free.

BTW are you the same Romey that visited the old World's Finest Boards?

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by killercroc
So where can I get a free copy of doom on the web? I'm not asking for anything illegal. I just assume that if the code is public domain that the game is out there somewhere for free.


Well it is as Aminet (http://ftp.wustl.edu/~aminet/) but that is the Amiga version sorry I never did play the PC version.

[Doctor Zan]

Originally posted by killercroc
So where can I get a free copy of doom on the web? I'm not asking for anything illegal. I just assume that if the code is public domain that the game is out there somewhere for free.

BTW are you the same Romey that visited the old World's Finest Boards?

no no no, the game is not free, it is being sold in a collector's edition along with doom 2 and final doom in stores now for $19.99

But the source code is free!

sorry for bumping up the topic. please don't get mad or ban me. I was just adding to the discussion and thought this was a great discussion about Doom.

[The Dork Knight]

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/8691/2600DOOM.HTM

- Foley Is Good

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by Foley Is Good
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcade/8691/2600DOOM.HTM

- Foley Is Good Cool info on the hoax

[The Dork Knight]

Originally posted by The Mad Hatter
Or I could blather on some more about PR people's attempts to make me think that games like Smurf Racer are exciting.

YOU DON'T THINK SMURF RACER IS EXCITING?!?! It has to be the greatest game ever made! Forget games like Wolfenstein 3D! Come on... Would'nt you want to be a Smurf in a go-kart? :p

Originally posted by Doctor Zan
no no no, the game is not free, it is being sold in a collector's edition along with doom 2 and final doom in stores now for $19.99.

Actually back when Doom was first made, id offered it for free online. I gotta try and find a copy soon.

- Foley Is Good