Carter in Cuba

[Psycho Fox]

I know Cuba was brought up in the Is America too close minded? thread but since Carter going there is big news I thought more people could voice their opinon on this.

I support Carter what Carter did. He went to Cuba told them he doen't like the US blockaid and said Cuba should be more demorcatic. I don't get why the far right in the US are blasting him for this he is a free citizen he has every right to go where he wants and say what he wants.

I agree with the idea of US ending the blockaid of Cuba. US is the only nation left that still has a blockaid on Cuba plus US trades with Vietnam and they killed tons of US troops during the war so it makes the US look backwards on the issue. Plus during the cold war the US criticized the Sovites for restricting people in and out of the nation and yet the US won't allow US citizens to travel to Cuba while citizens of other nations can go.

I don't like how the Bush govement puffed all that smoke about bioterrorism and Cuba. They say they have the means, big deal so does ever developed nation and Castro agreed to UN checking just not US checking. Plus there is no reports from the Commonwealth about this and they have free access to the sites since their money is invested in them.

I think Bush looked like a jerk when he said Cuba should have elections and freedom of the press ect. Uhhhh Carters speach went uncensored across Cuban airwaves that would have never happened when Cuba was under US rule since the Cuba didn't have any political freedoms when they were under the US which is why there was 2 revolutions in the nation when they were. Instead of insulting Castros intellegince maybe they should see if they could strike a deal if they open up trade to get him to allow a elections supervised by the UN (till it seems the UN is no longer needed) and support Cubas choice even if it is Castro again. Anything would be better then the current plan of waiting for Castro to die since that bugger could live for another 40 years.

[Lucky Bob]

I disagree. There are refugees fleeing Cuba for a reason, and it ain't U.S. trade embargoes.

[Joe Wagner]

I think Carters visit and words about Cuba's inability to produce bioterroristic devices was completely off base. While he was given the chance to talk to the Cuban public without any editing to his speech I'm sure that he had to have it approved by Fidel before he went up there. His comments about Cuba being inable to produce bioterroristic devices was wrong - just because Fidel shows him one lab and tells him they aren't producing anything does not mean that they are incapable of doing such a thing. IMO it would be stupid of the United States to ignore a potential threat in our area of the world, especially after the events of September 11th.

I could see trade happening with Cuba but only in exchange for the protection of American tourists and the ending of bioterroristic testing. Fidel is much like Hussein - he runs a country with an iron fist - like luckybob1985 said, there is a reason that there is a mass exodus of people from Cuba every year and I'm fairly certain it's not because they love their country.

-Joe!

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by jjwspider
I think Carters visit and words about Cuba's inability to produce bioterroristic devices was completely off base. While he was given the chance to talk to the Cuban public without any editing to his speech I'm sure that he had to have it approved by Fidel before he went up there. Nope I watched on CBC that Fidel had no clue what Carter was going to say His comments about Cuba being inable to produce bioterroristic devices was wrong - just because Fidel shows him one lab and tells him they aren't producing anything does not mean that they are incapable of doing such a thing. IMO it would be stupid of the United States to ignore a potential threat in our area of the world, especially after the events of September 11th. Yhea but Fidel allows UN inspecter in just not US inspecters. Eglton has release no statment that Canadian inspecters have seen any wrong doing with these lab and until another nations conferms it, it is just smoke becouse the US has aways been bias towards Cuba.

I could see trade happening with Cuba but only in exchange for the protection of American tourists and the ending of bioterroristic testing. Fidel is much like Hussein - he runs a country with an iron fist - like luckybob1985 said, there is a reason that there is a mass exodus of people from Cuba every year and I'm fairly certain it's not because they love their country.

-Joe! What bioterroritic testing? they are drug labs, Canadain inspecters vist them all the time we would know before you. A few American tourist already vist Cuba, they fly out of Canada and they came back. Cuba doesn't care they need the money Canada doesn't care it is none of their business to stop US citizens from going to Cuba.

Cuba is somewhat like it was when the US had it except non US nations have all the rights and Cubans have very little instead of Americans having all the rights and the Cubans having none oh yhea then there is the fact they are independant. It would be nice if Cuba was more democratic but we can't tell them how to run their nation neither can the US we can only make suggestions and reward them for doing what we think is an improvement.

[Lucky Bob]

Originally posted by Psycho Fox
Cuba is somewhat like it was when the US had it except non US nations have all the rights and Cubans having very little instead of Americans having all the rights and the Cubans having none oh yhea then there is the fact they are independant. It would be nice if Cuba was more democratic but we can't tell them how to run their nation neither can the US we can only make suggestions and reward them for doing what we think is an improvement. [/B]

We can when they torture their people, disregard human rights, and do any rationalized evil in the name of a faulty economic system (or, dogma). Let's face it, Cuba isn't poor because of the U.S. not trading with it! Other countries do. No, it's the simple reason that Communism doesn't work. Russia learned that years ago.

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by luckybob1985

We can when they torture their people, disregard human rights, and do any rationalized evil in the name of a faulty economic system (or, dogma).
Let's face it, Cuba isn't poor because of the U.S. not trading with it! Other countries do. No, it's the simple reason that Communism doesn't work. Russia learned that years ago. The United States did that to Cuban people before it seperated plus there was the genocide of Native Americans during the USs early years so does that mean the world should have put up a blockaid for 40 years aginst the US of course not like how the US trades with Vitenam while not punishing them for the lack of rights for their people other nations trade with Cuba while not punishing them for the lack or rights of the people.

Now as for Communism not working well it doesn't work on large scale it works if you a tribe or something where there is not enough for anyone to get ahead but where there is enough for someone to get ahead it is a hindrance so yhea it is bad for Cuba but there are worse nations out there.

I heard Bush might strenthen the blockaid of Cuba and I'm hoping they don't try and stop trade between Cuba and other nations like Canada. If so Bush better seriously figure out what is more important the collation aginst terrorism or stoping all trade out of Cuba since it will sour the relation between the USA and the rest of the world to dangerus levels. There are a few people in the Canadain that want run Canadain flags on all ships to and from Cuba with Naval escort if Bush does to make it so Bush has no choice but to start WWIII to stop Canada from trading with Cuba there is just too much of our money tied up down there and we are making tons of money off rasing the Spainsh gold out of Cuban waters.

[Psycho Fox]

The problem is the US does not understand cause and effect. If the internation community did not rescue Cuba when the Soviet Union fell Cuba would have been starved thus either everyone except Castro would be deing on the street or a even worse goverment would arise and take over with a deep hatered of the west possibly another Osama Bin Ladden. The rest of the world can't let Cuba become more left, radical or let Cubans die while Castro is uneffected thus why the internation community did and still supports Cuba. And it works the average Cuban knows who their freinds are so there is the potential to slowly change the country in the future this way rather then suffocating it and hoping a better goverment will arise from the rubble. The fact nations can also make money while supporting Cuba is another major incentive to handle Cuba this way.

The US plan will never work they can't suffocate Cuba since they international community acts as a safty net as they would never allow it and US blockaid just gives Castro a scape goat blaming all of Cubas problems on the US. So if the US keeps this up Castro will be running the nation from a hostipal bed many years from now and the US still making it harder for the international commuinty to try and bring some change to Cuba

[Lucky Bob]

Originally posted by Psycho Fox
The problem is the US does not understand cause and effect. If the internation community did not rescue Cuba when the Soviet Union fell Cuba would have been starved thus either everyone except Castro would be deing on the street or a even worse goverment would arise and take over with a deep hatered of the west possibly another Osama Bin Ladden.

You know, PF, a lot of your arguments seem to be quite "what if". We can't say that something would happen when there is absolutely no evidence for it. I know for a fact that there are many Cubans that want Castro out, and want a civilized government to take his place. Otherwise, they wouldn't be trying to get to Florida right now.

The United States did that to Cuban people before it seperated

That's the first I've heard about it, sources please? Besides, the same thing has happened in your Commonwealth many times, so I really wouldn't be throwing rocks.

plus there was the genocide of Native Americans during the USs early years so does that mean the world should have put up a blockaid for 40 years aginst the US of course not like how the US trades with Vitenam while not punishing them for the lack of rights for their people other nations trade with Cuba while not punishing them for the lack or rights of the people.

True, there were injustices committed against the Indians. However, again, let the first nation without fault cast the first stone. Countries throughout history have started because of invasion. And it's not like the Native American population was killed off, either. There are still plenty of them today. Cuba goes too far. They continue to this day to kill their people in horrendous ways, all in the name of Communism. (That's not opinion, that's plain fact.) And if you've ever actually sat down and read some of the the Communist writings, as I have, the whole idea of Commmunism is to spread the system throught the world.

The US plan will never work they can't suffocate Cuba since they international community acts as a safty net as they would never allow it and US blockaid just gives Castro a scape goat blaming all of Cubas problems on the US. So if the US keeps this up Castro will be running the nation from a hostipal bed many years from now and the US still making it harder for the international commuinty to try and bring some change to Cuba

I still fail to see how trading with a little spoiled dictator brat is going to be in our best interests. We, as a nation, have a right to pursue our own interests, and ours are not in Cuba. If the rest of the world doesn't like it, then they can talk to our lawyers in L.A. :D We don't have to bend to the international will every time.

Now as for Communism not working well it doesn't work on large scale it works if you a tribe or something where there is not enough for anyone to get ahead but where there is enough for someone to get ahead it is a hindrance so yhea it is bad for Cuba but there are worse nations out there.

It doesn't work on any scale! The Pilgrims in Plymouth started out with communal fields, and such. You know the story, they almost starved. However, when someone had the bright idea of every man working for himself, bingo! Things started getting better.

Communism on a large scale is dictatorship renamed. Everyone is "equal", except for the government leaders who are "more equal than others." I'd say there's a catch in that somewhere. :D

I heard Bush might strenthen the blockaid of Cuba and I'm hoping they don't try and stop trade between Cuba and other nations like Canada. If so Bush better seriously figure out what is more important the collation aginst terrorism or stoping all trade out of Cuba since it will sour the relation between the USA and the rest of the world to dangerus levels. There are a few people in the Canadain that want run Canadain flags on all ships to and from Cuba with Naval escort if Bush does to make it so Bush has no choice but to start WWIII to stop Canada from trading with Cuba there is just too much of our money tied up down there and we are making tons of money off rasing the Spainsh gold out of Cuban waters.

Ah, I get where this is coming from now! Question, who said that Bush was going to stop any country from trading with Cuba? You can't trust everything that you hear on TV, you know....

Honestly, Psycho, I have nothing against you or Canada personally. But there are many elements to consider about Cuba before you judge the U.S.

[The Guard]

We don't know if Communism would work or not. It's never been given the chance to grow and develop in a vaccum, free from outside intervention. It's working pretty well in Cuba. Yes, there are things they can and cannot do, and there is poverty, but look around a major US city.

It's not as bad as we make it seem.

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by luckybob1985

You know, PF, a lot of your arguments seem to be quite "what if". We can't say that something would happen when there is absolutely no evidence for it. I know for a fact that there are many Cubans that want Castro out, and want a civilized government to take his place. Otherwise, they wouldn't be trying to get to Florida right now.
Yhea but they don't want to starve in the process they want a transition not a revolution which is what the international community is tring its best to do.


That's the first I've heard about it, sources please? Besides, the same thing has happened in your Commonwealth many times, so I really wouldn't be throwing rocks.Check history books.
here a quick list of books

The Cuban Revolution
by Hugh Thomas

Cuba and The United States: A Chronological History
Ocean Press

Cuba: From Columbus to Castro
by Jamie Suchlicki

The Cuban Story
by Herbert L. Matthews

Fidel Castro’s Political Strategy: From Moncada to Victory
by Martha Harnecker

Revolutionary Cuba
by Terrence Cannon

Roosevelt and Batista
by Irwin F. Gellman

Batista took over the Cuban government on September 4, 1933. The coup overthrew the government of Gerardo Machado. Gerardo Machado was later shot by his wife after she learned Machado raped and murdered their daughter since she was second in command of the rebelion.

U.S. Ambassador Benjamin Sumner Welles meet with Batista in April of 1933 regarding the terms of his power the US will grant him. Wells told Batista I will lay down no specific terms; the matter of your government is a Cuban matter and it is for you to decide what you will do about it. Batista then become a shadow dictator being the real power of Cuba while elected presidents were nothing more then figure heads. Eventully reform came and Batista couldn't do this any more as in 1940 Cuba got a constitution. So he ran for president he lost and settled for a seat on the Cuban Senate

On March 10, 1952 he took over Cuba by force abolished the Cuban consituion and made him self emperor of Cuba. The coup took place three months before the upcoming elections that he was sure to loose to either Fidel Castro or Carlos Prío Socorras. On March 27 Batista’s government was formally recognized by U.S. President Dwight D. Eisenhower. (So much for democracy!) Thus led to Castro's revolution.



True, there were injustices committed against the Indians. However, again, let the first nation without fault cast the first stone. Countries throughout history have started because of invasion. And it's not like the Native American population was killed off, either. There are still plenty of them today. Cuba goes too far. They continue to this day to kill their people in horrendous ways, all in the name of Communism. (That's not opinion, that's plain fact.) And if you've ever actually sat down and read some of the the Communist writings, as I have, the whole idea of Commmunism is to spread the system throught the world.

It is not Communism it is dictorships. Capitalistic dictorships like Guatémala does the same thing. Cuba is one of the most behaved of dictorships in the world. Castro does not attack his neighbours. Castro gives his citizens free health care and education. The adverage Cuban lives just as long as the average Amercian. Castro does not torture or kill his people unless they go aginst him. You can get alot worse then Castro.

I still fail to see how trading with a little spoiled dictator brat is going to be in our best interests. We, as a nation, have a right to pursue our own interests, and ours are not in Cuba. If the rest of the world doesn't like it, then they can talk to our lawyers in L.A. :D We don't have to bend to the international will every time.Yes but it is a waste of money instead of cashing in like the rest of the world you have to wait till Cuba changes enough or Castro dies becouse the internation community is not going to let the US strangle Cuba.


It doesn't work on any scale! The Pilgrims in Plymouth started out with communal fields, and such. You know the story, they almost starved. However, when someone had the bright idea of every man working for himself, bingo! Things started getting better.
What about tribes in the bushes of
Austria or Africa?

The hunting party shares what they get equally with the tribe. Same with the constrution of huts the hunting party does not need to put one up, the people staying behind will do it for them. The reason the Pilgrims failed is for communism to work it has to be voluntary everyone has to want everyone in the tribe to survive but once you get above survival there is no need for communism just like when there is no emergency there is no need for marshal law.


Ah, I get where this is coming from now! Question, who said that Bush was going to stop any country from trading with Cuba? You can't trust everything that you hear on TV, you know....

Well without it the US boycott of Cuba is pointless you can't starve them out if the rest of the world is building Cuba up. Fiber is being run across Cuba there is talks of building a nuclear power station in Cuba and so on.

Honestly, Psycho, I have nothing against you or Canada personally. But there are many elements to consider about Cuba before you judge the U.S. Okay but why doen't Bush call a referendum on it let the Amercain people decide.

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by The Guard
We don't know if Communism would work or not. It's never been given the chance to grow and develop in a vaccum, free from outside intervention. It's working pretty well in Cuba. Yes, there are things they can and cannot do, and there is poverty, but look around a major US city.

It's not as bad as we make it seem. All anyone really knows is it works well when someone can die or get sick if everyone does not look out for everyone else like in tribes other then that there is no hard data on if it will work or not and Communism has been talked about since Plato. Personally I don't like it if you want to go that far left on a large scale Socialism works better.

[Lucky Bob]

Originally posted by Psycho Fox
Yhea but they don't want to starve in the process they want a transition not a revolution which is what the international community is tring its best to do.

You give Castro too much credit. You know, and I know, that he's not going to give up power. (Dictators are like that.) And the only reason the Cubans are starving, is because their corrupt government is taking their money. Did you hear about Mao's old limo that recently made news in China? That limo was big enough to hold a double bed! (And it did....) SOMEONE was getting more than his "fair share".


Batista took over the Cuban government on September 4, 1933. The coup overthrew the government of Gerardo Machado. Gerardo Machado was later shot by his wife after she learned Machado raped and murdered their daughter since she was second in command of the rebelion.

U.S. Ambassador Benjamin Sumner Welles meet with Batista in April of 1933 regarding the terms of his power the US will grant him. Wells told Batista I will lay down no specific terms; the matter of your government is a Cuban matter and it is for you to decide what you will do about it. Batista then become a shadow dictator being the real power of Cuba while elected presidents were nothing more then figure heads. Eventully reform came and Batista couldn't do this any more as in 1940 Cuba got a constitution. So he ran for president he lost and settled for a seat on the Cuban Senate

On March 10, 1952 he took over Cuba by force abolished the Cuban consituion and made him self emperor of Cuba. The coup took place three months before the upcoming elections that he was sure to loose to either Fidel Castro or Carlos Prío Socorras. On March 27 Batista’s government was formally recognized by U.S. President Dwight D. Eisenhower. (So much for democracy!) Thus led to Castro's revolution.

Thanks for telling me. However, just because you recognize something, doesn't mean you agree with it. We recognized the U.S.S.R. at one time....

It is not Communism it is dictorships. Capitalistic dictorships like Guatémala does the same thing. Cuba is one of the most behaved of dictorships in the world. Castro does not attack his neighbours. Castro gives his citizens free health care and education. The adverage Cuban lives just as long as the average Amercian. Castro does not torture or kill his people unless they go aginst him. You can get alot worse then Castro.

I'd say that's bad enough! Just because there are "worse ones out there" doesn't make it right!

Yes but it is a waste of money instead of cashing in like the rest of the world you have to wait till Cuba changes enough or Castro dies becouse the internation community is not going to let the US strangle Cuba.

We're doing pretty good without them. If the international community wants to support a dictator, they can go right ahead!

What about tribes in the bushes of
Austria or Africa?

The hunting party shares what they get equally with the tribe. Same with the constrution of huts the hunting party does not need to put one up, the people staying behind will do it for them. The reason the Pilgrims failed is for communism to work it has to be voluntary everyone has to want everyone in the tribe to survive but once you get above survival there is no need for communism just like when there is no emergency there is no need for marshal law.

That's different, that's provision. That's not a government taking all the money and dealing it out. (Keeping a goodly portion for themselves, of course.)

Well without it the US boycott of Cuba is pointless you can't starve them out if the rest of the world is building Cuba up. Fiber is being run across Cuba there is talks of building a nuclear power station in Cuba and so on.

And Castro's coffers ever increase....

Okay but why doen't Bush call a referendum on it let the Amercain people decide.

Ask him! I know I'd vote to keep the embargo....

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by luckybob1985


You give Castro too much credit. You know, and I know, that he's not going to give up power. (Dictators are like that.) And the only reason the Cubans are starving, is because their corrupt government is taking their money. Did you hear about Mao's old limo that recently made news in China? That limo was big enough to hold a double bed! (And it did....) SOMEONE was getting more than his "fair share".
But Cubans are not starving thanks to the work of the international community yes the Cuban people are poor while Castro is rich but Cubans have eduction, health care and a decent amount of food.


Thanks for telling me. However, just because you recognize something, doesn't mean you agree with it. We recognized the U.S.S.R. at one time....
Yes but the US barks at Castro for not reinstating the constition but never barked at Batista for getting rid of it in the first place. Why did the US block trade with Cuba for Castro and not Batista? Trade actully increased between the US and Cuba while Batista was emperor. Plus before all this US appointed Gerardo Machado a ganster connect to Capone to run Cuba, sorry if I have little faith in the USs unique forien policy.

I'd say that's bad enough! Just because there are "worse ones out there" doesn't make it right!
But since there are worse that means there could be a worse dicator wating in the wings if Castro falls thus why the international community goes with the transition approch.


That's different, that's provision. That's not a government taking all the money and dealing it out. (Keeping a goodly portion for themselves, of course.)My examples is what Communism is suppose to be if you follow Plato's theory of Communism. What most of them are right now is dictatorships that hide behind the word.


And Castro's coffers ever increase....
And Cuba will be better off when it becomes free of Castros iron fist.

Ask him! I know I'd vote to keep the embargo.... I really think it should then it would be the will of the American people not the will of Bush.

[Lucky Bob]

But Cubans are not starving thanks to the work of the international community yes the Cuban people are poor while Castro is rich but Cubans have eduction, health care and a decent amount of food.

And no personal freedom. I'd rather be poor and free than educated and controlled.

Yes but the US barks at Castro for not reinstating the constition but never barked at Batista for getting rid of it in the first place. Why did the US block trade with Cuba for Castro and not Batista? Trade actully increased between the US and Cuba while Batista was emperor. Plus before all this US appointed Gerardo Machado a ganster connect to Capone to run Cuba, sorry if I have little faith in the USs unique forien policy.

That's taking one instance out of history, and applying it to the whole. By the same ticket, I can badmouth the Commonwealth now for 1776. (Or everything they did in India, for that matter...)

But since there are worse that means there could be a worse dicator wating in the wings if Castro falls thus why the international community goes with the transition approch.

How do they plan to do that? You can always tell a dictator, but you can't tell him much! :D We could try talking to Castro, but he'll just smile, nod, and beg for another chance. (That's happened before in recent history....)

My examples is what Communism is suppose to be if you follow Plato's theory of Communism. What most of them are right now is dictatorships that hide behind the word.

Plato envisioned a society full of philosophers. I, personally, don't think that such a society would be very functional. (Who would want to watch a philosopher on TV every night?) I'm talking about Marxism.

And Cuba will be better off when it becomes free of Castros iron fist.

We agree on that!

I really think it should then it would be the will of the American people not the will of Bush.

If we don't like his policies, he doesn't get elected! So, in a sense, it is a matter of the people. Also, we have two other branches of government that can check him on his descisions. The legislative branch is made of of direct representatives of the people, so it is!

[Joe Wagner]

Originally posted by Psycho Fox
[/B] And Cuba will be better off when it becomes free of Castros iron fist.

Exactly - the Cuban people will be far better off without Castro.

Originally posted by Psycho Fox
But Cubans are not starving thanks to the work of the international community yes the Cuban people are poor while Castro is rich but Cubans have eduction, health care and a decent amount of food.

You have claimed that the Cuban people are perfectly content with their country and enjoy the benefits of free health care and education and yet in your next arguement you say that the Cuban people are only eating because of the international community. Hmm....what good are the benefits of society whenever you can barely enjoy the basis of survival? Have you ever tried learning when you can only think about lunch? It's very difficult to say the least.

Another thing is that you seem to be neglecting the strangle hold that Castro holds on his people. If a person even questions his judgement, what happens? They get to occupy a jail cell for the next 50-60 years for speaking against their leader. That sounds like a good way to run a country, right? As Americans we value the freedom of speech and our ability to change the government.

Originally posted by Psycho Fox
Yes but it is a waste of money instead of cashing in like the rest of the world you have to wait till Cuba changes enough or Castro dies becouse the internation community is not going to let the US strangle Cuba. [B]

Just because some countries in the international community wants to support a despotic country doesn't mean we also must follow suit. Just like our current situation with Iraq (another despot bent on US hatred) many countries want us to drop our embargy on Iraq but it really wouldn't help the people of Iraq, instead fattening the wallets of their leaders. Just because one country decides they are willing to take the risk of helping these despots does not mean that the US should follow the rest of the line.

As an American citizen I support Bush's decision to keep the trade restriction on Cuba. I want my money to go to items that help strengthen my country, not to countries that would just as soon find a way to attack us and oppose everything our country stands for. If other countries decide to take that risk - that is their choice. My choice will be to hold onto the restriction until the Cuban people are finally given the same opportunity - the chance to choose the way their government is run. Until that time I would expect to hear more and more stories about the Cuban people struggling to find their way to the shores of the United States.

-Joe!

[Lucky Bob]

Originally posted by jjwspider


Exactly - the Cuban people will be far better off without Castro.



You have claimed that the Cuban people are perfectly content with their country and enjoy the benefits of free health care and education and yet in your next arguement you say that the Cuban people are only eating because of the international community. Hmm....what good are the benefits of society whenever you can barely enjoy the basis of survival? Have you ever tried learning when you can only think about lunch? It's very difficult to say the least.

Another thing is that you seem to be neglecting the strangle hold that Castro holds on his people. If a person even questions his judgement, what happens? They get to occupy a jail cell for the next 50-60 years for speaking against their leader. That sounds like a good way to run a country, right? As Americans we value the freedom of speech and our ability to change the government.



Just because some countries in the international community wants to support a despotic country doesn't mean we also must follow suit. Just like our current situation with Iraq (another despot bent on US hatred) many countries want us to drop our embargy on Iraq but it really wouldn't help the people of Iraq, instead fattening the wallets of their leaders. Just because one country decides they are willing to take the risk of helping these despots does not mean that the US should follow the rest of the line.

As an American citizen I support Bush's decision to keep the trade restriction on Cuba. I want my money to go to items that help strengthen my country, not to countries that would just as soon find a way to attack us and oppose everything our country stands for. If other countries decide to take that risk - that is their choice. My choice will be to hold onto the restriction until the Cuban people are finally given the same opportunity - the chance to choose the way their government is run. Until that time I would expect to hear more and more stories about the Cuban people struggling to find their way to the shores of the United States.

-Joe!


Ditto, Rush! :D

[Psycho Fox]

Lets look at the history the US has only been able to put dictators in Cuba since they took it over. Castro is the result of US forien policy towards Cuba.

The US says Castro is a ruthless dictator when he really is just a dictator. Look into his history he was the elected representative to the socialist party in Cuba. He promised free education, health care and food for all (which he has kinda done). In 1952 Batista took his chance of being president fairly. Batista threw Castro into jail along with everyone else that didn't support him. In jail Castro wrote a book. Some psychiatrist say jail warped Castro's mind. When he got up and took control of the goverment the constitution was not in place thanks to Batista thus it was like when Caesar abolished the Republic in Rome even though the senate killed him for it no one wanted to put it back, in this case here Castro just ignored the constitution and never reinstated it. So now you have 2 views of how to fix Cuba. The US wanting to hit the rest buttion, destroying the few good things Castro did do and no real plan of how to make sure the guy replacing him puts back the constituion. Then you have the international plan led by the Commonwealth and its main supporter Canada. Of playing head games with Castro seeing if they could use his ego to prove to the world he would have won in a fair election in 1952. Supporting other political parties that are non violent so Castro does not see it as a attempt to over throw him. The big diffence is the US is a quick fix could lead to bigger problems but Castro would be out quickly if the International community supported it. The other is setting up for the future so there is a better chances after Castro the consition would be put back if not by Castro him self if they can get Castro to run a honest election before he dies for his ego. The only plus side with the US blocking trade with Cuba and the Commonwealth supporting it, it would be more likey after Castro a Commonwealth freindly goverment will arise in Cuba and the US will most likey have to abandon its naval base there but even then I don't think it is worth it.

[Joe Wagner]

Why would the US decide to leave their naval base? Quite frankly they wouldn't. Not only is it an important hub in the defense of the Western Hemisphere but it is also currently serving as a base for captured Al-Queda terrorists. The ideas that you give is based to far in speculation than actual fact. While the Commonwealth is supporting Cuba they are in fact supporting the regime of Castro. By allowing Castro to remain in power it is more likely that even after his death another dictator personality could easily assert control. Look at the situation in Iraq for example. There are large pockets of discontent within the country but much like Cuba they are silenced when they speak against their leader (in more extreme means, but silenced nonetheless). If Saddam dies today his son takes over. Something similair is more likely to happen in Cuba, if Castro dies I'm sure he has an incumbant in place and ready to go - if you lead a country would you allow your society to change so quickly after your death? When such a leader comes to power there is no guarantee that they will allow any other parties or continue relations with the commonwealth.

Wouldn't it make more sense to try and cause the country to realize the ideals of democracy and help them create it rather than support and strengthen the will of a dictator? The US has choosen to not help strengthen Castros power and hope that they can bring about social reform in a more lasting manner.

-Joe!

[Lucky Bob]

We've had other things to worry about without a small island run by a spoiled dictator in the Carribean. (The U.S.S.R., terrorism, Iraq, etc.) I think it's about time we did something about it.

After Iraq, of course.

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by jjwspider
Why would the US decide to leave their naval base? Quite frankly they wouldn't. Not only is it an important hub in the defense of the Western Hemisphere but it is also currently serving as a base for captured Al-Queda terrorists.Becouse if Cuba become part of the commonwealth it would be awkward for it to stay kinda think about it would you like the idea of a British base on the US mainland? neither would the Commonwealth if Cuba comes under their spear of influence. Plus it would meen they could lease it back to the US for a price. The ideas that you give is based to far in speculation than actual fact. While the Commonwealth is supporting Cuba they are in fact supporting the regime of Castro. By allowing Castro to remain in power it is more likely that even after his death another dictator personality could easily assert control. Look at the situation in Iraq for example. There are large pockets of discontent within the country but much like Cuba they are silenced when they speak against their leader (in more extreme means, but silenced nonetheless). If Saddam dies today his son takes over. Something similair is more likely to happen in Cuba, if Castro dies I'm sure he has an incumbant in place and ready to go - if you lead a country would you allow your society to change so quickly after your death? When such a leader comes to power there is no guarantee that they will allow any other parties or continue relations with the commonwealth.

Wouldn't it make more sense to try and cause the country to realize the ideals of democracy and help them create it rather than support and strengthen the will of a dictator? The US has choosen to not help strengthen Castros power and hope that they can bring about social reform in a more lasting manner.

-Joe! See the international community wants the 1940 constitution that was enacted by Carlos Prío Socorras to be reinstated and every future leader of Cuba to follow it. They don't really care if Castro runs Cuba as long as he follows that consitiution and since a long long time ago he belived in that piece of paper it might not be impossible to get Castro to re-enact it before he dies. Now allowing the people on Cuba to become stupid and hungry would make it hard for them to even know about this piece of paper and do you really think without schools you would be able to find some to run Cuba. At least Carter mentioned to all the Cubans the group that was fighting to bring it back. Bush was totaly general. The only way to push Castro buttions and the facts he can't dodge like the 1940 Consitution. Plus ya got the people in Florida telling Cubans over the airwaves how great Batista the same jerk that killed Cubas constitution and Americans wonder why it is an uphill battle for the rest of the world to get Castro to re-enact the thing.

It could work, so far all the Cuban schools are on line meaning student can get information out side of Castro control well except for the teachers of course and there is a push to bring the internet into every home in Cuba. You won't win their heart in mind by making them stupid they have to be able to communicate with the outside world and right now the Commonwealth is tring its hardest to pull Cuba in so Castro can't stop the spread of information and for him it is easy he belives in education so he is torn between being a dictor and what little morals he has left.

[Lucky Bob]

Becouse if Cuba become part of the commonwealth it would be awkward for it to stay kinda think about it would you like the idea of a British base on the US mainland? neither would the Commonwealth if Cuba comes under their spear of influence. Plus it would meen they could lease it back to the US for a price.

The U.S. has bases in Britain. They want us there.


See the international community wants the 1940 constitution that was enacted by Carlos Prío Socorras to be reinstated and every future leader of Cuba to follow it. They don't really care if Castro runs Cuba as long as he follows that consitiution and since a long long time ago he belived in that piece of paper it might not be impossible to get Castro to re-enact it before he dies. Now allowing the people on Cuba to become stupid and hungry would make it hard for them to even know about this piece of paper and do you really think without schools you would be able to find some to run Cuba. At least Carter mentioned to all the Cubans the group that was fighting to bring it back. Bush was totaly general. The only way to push Castro buttions and the facts he can't dodge like the 1940 Consitution. Plus ya got the people in Florida telling Cubans over the airwaves how great Batista the same jerk that killed Cubas constitution and Americans wonder why it is an uphill battle for the rest of the world to get Castro to re-enact the thing.

It could work, so far all the Cuban schools are on line meaning student can get information out side of Castro control well except for the teachers of course and there is a push to bring the internet into every home in Cuba. You won't win their heart in mind by making them stupid they have to be able to communicate with the outside world and right now the Commonwealth is tring its hardest to pull Cuba in so Castro can't stop the spread of information and for him it is easy he belives in education so he is torn between being a dictor and what little morals he has left.

Okay, now you're really getting out there. First of all, I hear no evidence that Britian is trying to pull Cuba into the Commonwealth. You're presenting speculation as fact. Second, Castro is not going to be convinced of anything! Every time someone visits to plead for human rights and freedom, he smiles for the camera and turns a deaf ear. This guy's not going to listen.

Also, don't you think that this "unstoppable flow of information" might cause the very revolution that you said you didn't wat?

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by luckybob1985


The U.S. has bases in Britain. They want us there.

See but the US pays Britain for the land it sit on. If Cuba become demorcatic again the issue of the US paying cuba for the land it naval base sits on might come up in the UN


Okay, now you're really getting out there. First of all, I hear no evidence that Britian is trying to pull Cuba into the Commonwealth. You're presenting speculation as fact. Second, Castro is not going to be convinced of anything! Every time someone visits to plead for human rights and freedom, he smiles for the camera and turns a deaf ear. This guy's not going to listen.

If Cuba becomes democratic there has been some talk that it could be a possiblity but Cuba would have to want to first. Now this is the problem that the international community has with the US is it stereotypes Castro as a sterotypical dictator. The international community for years has been tring to get into Castros head. There is a human underneath the monster. As it says in Art of War:Know your enemy The US obviously not done that considering they thought Castro could team up with Bin Laden that is like saying Hittler could have teamed up with Stalin they hate each other guts. You put two of them in a room and they will kill each other. Castro has no freinds in the middle east only in South America, Africa and Asia. Now if you look at it Castro tooked control of Cuba becouse Batista was a corrupt and heartless dictator. You read his works before the revolution Castro is far more democratic same with Batista you read Batistas works before he took over and you'll find he was more democratic. So the Commonwealth sat down and said okay statically that means Cuba is corrupting every person that runs it. absolute power corrupts absolutely meaning no matter who you put in there and how moral they are they will become a dictator (Like the Duckman episode where he becomes leader of a small island nation). So the US can cause revolution after revolution and the law of averages will dictate they will most likey be all dictators. Now look at Castro the human he has given his people free health care and education like he promised while he was running for election. He stoped inciting rebellions around the world when his second in command and best freind got killed during a guerrilla action. He kicked British ass to stop British oppression in Africa. He actully allows non violent polictical parties that goes aginst him to exist as long as they have next to no power. So Castro is a completly diffent animal then Saddam. Castro is mostly harmless and it is better to have have leash on him then let him run wild. Trade is that leash. Castro is dependant on it and the political protection they get from the international community to soften the blows from the US. The thing Castro wants more then anything else is a Cuba free of masters, nobodys pawn which is why Castro behaves himself infront of the Commonwelth becouse it is his ticket to completly self sufficient and all the Commonwealth price is the constitution be re-enacted and he follow it. We will let him run the contry he can still be communist just follow the rules of Cubas constitution which is a better deal then the US wants.

Also, don't you think that this "unstoppable flow of information" might cause the very revolution that you said you didn't want?But then it is their revolution not the Commonwealth not the USs and since we are not building up one party there is slightly better chance there might be at least democratic discussions after the revolution. Since you don't have one guy saing I'm the leader the cause the US supports me instead you will have a bunch of guys with diffent ideas how to run the country all with guns.

[Joe Wagner]

Originally posted by Psycho Fox
See but the US pays Britain for the land it sit on. If Cuba become demorcatic again the issue of the US paying cuba for the land it naval base sits on might come up in the UN

True but at the same time the US has many military bases around the world that they don't pay for and there has not been a hearing about it elsewhere. Besides the influx of American troops provides safety and a stimulus to these nations economies - it would be detrimental to ask them to leave.

Originally posted by Psycho Fox
If Cuba becomes democratic there has been some talk that it could be a possiblity but Cuba would have to want to first. Now this is the problem that the international community has with the US is it stereotypes Castro as a sterotypical dictator. The international community for years has been tring to get into Castros head. There is a human underneath the monster. As it says in Art of War:Know your enemy The US obviously not done that considering they thought Castro could team up with Bin Laden that is like saying Hittler could have teamed up with Stalin they hate each other guts. You put two of them in a room and they will kill each other. Castro has no freinds in the middle east only in South America, Africa and Asia. Now if you look at it Castro tooked control of Cuba becouse Batista was a corrupt and heartless dictator. You read his works before the revolution Castro is far more democratic same with Batista you read Batistas works before he took over and you'll find he was more democratic. So the Commonwealth sat down and said okay statically that means Cuba is corrupting every person that runs it. absolute power corrupts absolutely meaning no matter who you put in there and how moral they are they will become a dictator (Like the Duckman episode where he becomes leader of a small island nation). So the US can cause revolution after revolution and the law of averages will dictate they will most likey be all dictators. Now look at Castro the human he has given his people free health care and education like he promised while he was running for election. He stoped inciting rebellions around the world when his second in command and best freind got killed during a guerrilla action. He kicked British ass to stop British oppression in Africa. He actully allows non violent polictical parties that goes aginst him to exist as long as they have next to no power. So Castro is a completly diffent animal then Saddam. Castro is mostly harmless and it is better to have have leash on him then let him run wild. Trade is that leash. Castro is dependant on it and the political protection they get from the international community to soften the blows from the US. The thing Castro wants more then anything else is a Cuba free of masters, nobodys pawn which is why Castro behaves himself infront of the Commonwelth becouse it is his ticket to completly self sufficient and all the Commonwealth price is the constitution be re-enacted and he follow it. We will let him run the contry he can still be communist just follow the rules of Cubas constitution which is a better deal then the US wants.

Funny that you mention Stalin and Hitler - you seem to be forgetting that for a great period of time before WWII the two were virtual allies, with the USSR agreeing to not attack Germany as long as they got half of Poland and the Germans didn't step upon Russian soil. This gave Germany a chance to strengthen their army and take control of most of Western Europe with little to no opposition. For two guys that hated each other they didn't mind making a treaty with each other when it was mutually beneficial. The destruction of the US would be beneficial to both Castro and Bin Laden - spreading the messages of communism and anti-western attitudes.

Also you said Cuba would have to pick to join the Commonwealth - but if they are treated like the pampered child of the Commonwealth why would they choose to. Much like Puerto Rico they would get all of the benefits and not have any of the obligations - sounds pretty good to me.

Originally posted by Psycho Fox
But then it is their revolution not the Commonwealth not the USs and since we are not building up one party there is slightly better chance there might be at least democratic discussions after the revolution. Since you don't have one guy saing I'm the leader the cause the US supports me instead you will have a bunch of guys with diffent ideas how to run the country all with guns.

Ok - I'm officially confused now. You switch between saying that they could join the Commonwealth to a rebellion against the current leader. Castro is a dictator and the ability for his people to get GOOD information is severly limited. The people that have opposed him wind up in prision and he's not going to give them free reign to understand other governments and societies that aren't as restrictive. Also any party that decides to take power is more than likely going to need a broker for power - often through the allies they can make. If a rebellion occurs the US would support one person, the Commonwealth would support a person that would make favorable trade agreements and nations like Iran and Iraq would funnel money to the person that would pose a security risk to the US. While Castro is a despot that steals money away from his people he is in no way stupid and would have a successor to step up in the event of his death - making sure that a dictator will rule once he's gone. The only way to change that would be to spark the people's interest in better forms of government and that's not likely to happen as long as Castro or someone similar to him is in power.

-Joe!

[Lucky Bob]

But then it is their revolution not the Commonwealth not the USs and since we are not building up one party there is slightly better chance there might be at least democratic discussions after the revolution. Since you don't have one guy saing I'm the leader the cause the US supports me instead you will have a bunch of guys with diffent ideas how to run the country all with guns.

Okay, now I'm REALLY confused. You want Cuba to join the commonwealth out of free will? Name one country that has joined the Commonwealth out of free will without any pressure from the British military. (Past or present.)

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by jjwspider


True but at the same time the US has many military bases around the world that they don't pay for and there has not been a hearing about it elsewhere. Besides the influx of American troops provides safety and a stimulus to these nations economies - it would be detrimental to ask them to leave.
Yes so mostly likey if it doen happen it would be a one time payment for say a 500 or 1,000 year lease.


Funny that you mention Stalin and Hitler - you seem to be forgetting that for a great period of time before WWII the two were virtual allies, with the USSR agreeing to not attack Germany as long as they got half of Poland and the Germans didn't step upon Russian soil. This gave Germany a chance to strengthen their army and take control of most of Western Europe with little to no opposition. For two guys that hated each other they didn't mind making a treaty with each other when it was mutually beneficial. The destruction of the US would be beneficial to both Castro and Bin Laden - spreading the messages of communism and anti-western attitudes. Yes they agreed to not attack each other but they still never trusted each other. Castro would never give Iran, Iraq or anyone like them information or weapons they could use aginst Cuba since Castro know Iraq and company hates Cuba too. They might agree not to terrorise each other or at most ally diplomatically to win battles during UN hearing but anything more would be a streatch of the imagination.

Also you said Cuba would have to pick to join the Commonwealth - but if they are treated like the pampered child of the Commonwealth why would they choose to. Much like Puerto Rico they would get all of the benefits and not have any of the obligations - sounds pretty good to me.
Got a point all they will get is free trade and even better protection millitarly meaning if the US base is a problem for them a British or Canadain base could be build on the island as well.


Ok - I'm officially confused now. You switch between saying that they could join the Commonwealth to a rebellion against the current leader. Castro is a dictator and the ability for his people to get GOOD information is severly limited. The people that have opposed him wind up in prision and he's not going to give them free reign to understand other governments and societies that aren't as restrictive. Also any party that decides to take power is more than likely going to need a broker for power - often through the allies they can make. If a rebellion occurs the US would support one person, the Commonwealth would support a person that would make favorable trade agreements and nations like Iran and Iraq would funnel money to the person that would pose a security risk to the US. While Castro is a despot that steals money away from his people he is in no way stupid and would have a successor to step up in the event of his death - making sure that a dictator will rule once he's gone. The only way to change that would be to spark the people's interest in better forms of government and that's not likely to happen as long as Castro or someone similar to him is in power.

-Joe! Castro did not plan on being a dictator he got assimilated into the position of dictator again like the Duckman ep where Duckman ran a small island nation. If the Commonwealth or the US give rebels power to take over Castro there is the problem that we would be picking young Castros and Batistas. Then what do we do put in fair elections like Bush wants? great now the Cubain people can elect their dictator and with the nation distoryed economically due to the rebellion they will most likely go communist again or it will get a half a s s democracy and the Cubans will over throw it since their QofL can't get at least back to that of which is was under Castro fast enough. The 1940 Cuban Consitution is the key, Castro has a huge ego and does belive in Cuba being independant so it might be possible to slowly push him towards it. There is no proof Castro will allow another dicator after him he is a unique dictator he thinks only he knows what is best for Cuba but after him he might not trust anyone with his power to run Cuba. Think about it Castro has sleeped with close to ever female on the island so which of is illegitimate sons would he get to run the country and weirdly the only night stand that still likes him is in Florida so I don't think she will be it. Putting back the consitution will put a more positive light to Castro in the history books and Castro seems to care what history will say about him so there is a change he might put it back on his death bed if not the Commonwealth might be able to forge his will (having free acess to the island does make it easier). Carter was able to tell close to every Cuban about a political party other then Castro's and the Commonwealth will make sure Castro doesn't suppress it (Carter should get knighted or something for that, he help Canada and Britain greatly) which in my opinon is a steep forward.

[Lucky Bob]

Got a point all they will get is free trade and even better protection millitarly meaning if the US base is a problem for them a British or Canadain base could be build on the island as well.

You bring up the Commonwealth often. Are you suggesting that the main reason you want Cuba to join the Commonwealth is that you want it to become more powerful than the U.S.?

Castro did not plan on being a dictator he got assimilated into the position of dictator again like the Duckman ep where Duckman ran a small island nation. If the Commonwealth or the US give rebels power to take over Castro there is the problem that we would be picking young Castros and Batistas. Then what do we do put in fair elections like Bush wants? great now the Cubain people can elect their dictator and with the nation distoryed economically due to the rebellion they will most likely go communist again or it will get a half a s s democracy and the Cubans will over throw it since their QofL can't get at least back to that of which is was under Castro fast enough. The 1940 Cuban Consitution is the key, Castro has a huge ego and does belive in Cuba being independant so it might be possible to slowly push him towards it. There is no proof Castro will allow another dicator after him he is a unique dictator he thinks only he knows what is best for Cuba but after him he might not trust anyone with his power to run Cuba. Think about it Castro has sleeped with close to ever female on the island so which of is illegitimate sons would he get to run the country and weirdly the only night stand that still likes him is in Florida so I don't think she will be it. Putting back the consitution will put a more positive light to Castro in the history books and Castro seems to care what history will say about him so there is a change he might put it back on his death bed if not the Commonwealth might be able to forge his will (having free acess to the island does make it easier). Carter was able to tell close to every Cuban about a political party other then Castro's and the Commonwealth will make sure Castro doesn't suppress it (Carter should get knighted or something for that, he help Canada and Britain greatly) which in my opinon is a steep forward.

Maybe you should read this....

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/americas/08/13/birthday.castro/index.html

Or this....

http://www.cnn.com/2001/CAREER/trends/08/13/joe.garcia.canf.focus/index.html

[Joe Wagner]

Originally posted by Psycho Fox

Castro did not plan on being a dictator he got assimilated into the position of dictator again like the Duckman ep where Duckman ran a small island nation. If the Commonwealth or the US give rebels power to take over Castro there is the problem that we would be picking young Castros and Batistas. Then what do we do put in fair elections like Bush wants? great now the Cubain people can elect their dictator and with the nation distoryed economically due to the rebellion they will most likely go communist again or it will get a half a s s democracy and the Cubans will over throw it since their QofL can't get at least back to that of which is was under Castro fast enough. The 1940 Cuban Consitution is the key, Castro has a huge ego and does belive in Cuba being independant so it might be possible to slowly push him towards it. There is no proof Castro will allow another dicator after him he is a unique dictator he thinks only he knows what is best for Cuba but after him he might not trust anyone with his power to run Cuba. Think about it Castro has sleeped with close to ever female on the island so which of is illegitimate sons would he get to run the country and weirdly the only night stand that still likes him is in Florida so I don't think she will be it. Putting back the consitution will put a more positive light to Castro in the history books and Castro seems to care what history will say about him so there is a change he might put it back on his death bed if not the Commonwealth might be able to forge his will (having free acess to the island does make it easier). Carter was able to tell close to every Cuban about a political party other then Castro's and the Commonwealth will make sure Castro doesn't suppress it (Carter should get knighted or something for that, he help Canada and Britain greatly) which in my opinon is a steep forward.

Hitler didn't plan on becoming a mass murderer - he wanted to be an artist and when that didn't pan out he became involved with politics and got lead on an anti-semitic campaign. Just because Castro didn't plan to be a dictator doesn't mean that he isn't one. As long as Castro is in power the ability for the Cuban people to be successful is going to be severely limited. They are confined to the island for the most part and a lot of Cuban immigrants risk their lives to come to the US every year. If every thing was peachy in Cuba they wouldn't be taking the massive risks that they do. In a recent poll of Cuban immigrants in Miami they were asked if President Bush should lift the restrictions on Cuba - the answer, a surprising NO. These people that had lived in Cuba their entire lives didn't want the restrictions lifted, why is that? Why wouldn't a person want their homeland to prosper unless it's obviously violating the rights of the people that live there?

Also while Iran may not like Cuba if it meant the destruction of their primary foe (the US) they would go to any lengths to achieve such a feat. Saddam is the leader that funneled money to Palestinian Homocide bombers in order to force the US to deal with Arafat instead giving us the opportunity to attack Iraq and expel him. This goes to show that Saddam is willing to take almost any risk in order to remain in power and this would be another one he'd be more than willing to make.

Carter's trip to Cuba was IMO a mockery. Carter played the role of a pawn perfectly and Castro's smile in pictures was the perfect image of a puppet master. Carter's view that Cuba doesn't have the capability to create bioterroristic devices was off base. He virtually played his role off as saying if Castro says its true, it obviously is. Maybe Carter was afraid of being thrown in jail for opposing Castro's will? With that type of politics though I wonder how long it'll be before Carter states that Iraq isn't in the process of creating weapons of mass destruction and that militant groups like Hamas didn't hand out bomb belts to 14 year old children in order to become suicide bombers against the nation of Isreal. IMO the trip to Cuba was a joke and Carters speech did more to hurt his self image than help any country, Commonwealth or not.

-Joe!

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by luckybob1985

You bring up the Commonwealth often. Are you suggesting that the main reason you want Cuba to join the Commonwealth is that you want it to become more powerful than the U.S.?
Nope but if Cuba changes becouse of us that would make us right and US wrong so a small prize would be nice but mostly we already got it with money made off Cuba so I don't think a big deal would be made over it.
Originally posted by jjwspider


Hitler didn't plan on becoming a mass murderer - he wanted to be an artist and when that didn't pan out he became involved with politics and got lead on an anti-semitic campaign. Just because Castro didn't plan to be a dictator doesn't mean that he isn't one. As long as Castro is in power the ability for the Cuban people to be successful is going to be severely limited. They are confined to the island for the most part and a lot of Cuban immigrants risk their lives to come to the US every year. If every thing was peachy in Cuba they wouldn't be taking the massive risks that they do. In a recent poll of Cuban immigrants in Miami they were asked if President Bush should lift the restrictions on Cuba - the answer, a surprising NO. These people that had lived in Cuba their entire lives didn't want the restrictions lifted, why is that? Why wouldn't a person want their homeland to prosper unless it's obviously violating the rights of the people that live there?
But a secret poll of the Cubans living in Cuba say they don't want to be starved out. The people that are in the US don't have to worry about finding food if Cuba has a famine.

Plus what is kicking Castro out going to do without a consitition protecting Cubans. Britian would love to back rebel in Cuba but they all are like Castro and Batista when they were young so we either get another Communist dictator or a Capitalist dictator. All the democratic groups in Cuba are non violent which is okay by us since non violent rebellions work too.

The US plan of thinking elections will solve everything is laughable as I said being able to elect your dictator is not an improvment and goverment reform needs to happen before elections is even considered.

Plus when the Soviet Union fell Cuba for about a year had no food, clean water, electricity, oil, gas, you name it and not even a hint of uprise was spoted so that means for the US plan to work alot of Cubans are going to die. The whole island could starve to death and Castro still might be in power.

Also while Iran may not like Cuba if it meant the destruction of their primary foe (the US) they would go to any lengths to achieve such a feat. Saddam is the leader that funneled money to Palestinian Homocide bombers in order to force the US to deal with Arafat instead giving us the opportunity to attack Iraq and expel him. This goes to show that Saddam is willing to take almost any risk in order to remain in power and this would be another one he'd be more than willing to make.Yes Saddam might but Castro is too stratigic to back Saddam cause Saddam could terrorise his freinds and already terrorise his trading partners.

Carter's trip to Cuba was IMO a mockery. Carter played the role of a pawn perfectly and Castro's smile in pictures was the perfect image of a puppet master. Carter's view that Cuba doesn't have the capability to create bioterroristic devices was off base. He virtually played his role off as saying if Castro says its true, it obviously is. Maybe Carter was afraid of being thrown in jail for opposing Castro's will. With that type of politics though I wonder how long it'll be before Carter states that Iraq isn't in the process of creating weapons of mass destruction and that militant groups like Hamas didn't hand out bomb belts to 14 year old children in order to become suicide bombers against the nation of Isreal. IMO the trip to Cuba was a joke and Carters speech did more to hurt his self image than help any country, Commonwealth or not.

-Joe! Yhea but there is no weapons in Cuba. If he did why did he offer UN inspecters to check them? The UN is still waiting for the US to hand over their documents regarding this so they can launch a full scale sweep of the labs yet the US says the UN can't see it. It makes the US look like a 12 year old. Carter told almost all of Cuba about a non violent political party and a partition to hold referendums in Cuba for goverment reform ie getting a constitution. So to people outside the US Bush looked like a twit and Carter looked like an actul diplomat.

[Lucky Bob]

Nope but if Cuba changes becouse of us that would make us right and US wrong so a small prize would be nice but mostly we already got it with money made off Cuba so I don't think a big deal would be made over it.

Right...sure.

But a secret poll of the Cubans living in Cuba say they don't want to be starved out. The people that are in the US don't have to worry about finding food if Cuba has a famine.

Then let them pick a new government!

Plus what is kicking Castro out going to do without a consitition protecting Cubans. Britian would love to back rebel in Cuba but they all are like Castro and Batista when they were young so we either get another Communist dictator or a Capitalist dictator. All the democratic groups in Cuba are non violent which is okay by us since non violent rebellions work too.

They could write their own. Let's give 'em credit for that much intellegence. You can write a new one!

The US plan of thinking elections will solve everything is laughable as I said being able to elect your dictator is not an improvment and goverment reform needs to happen before elections is even considered.

Actually, it is. You pick the person who you agree with, and if he turns out to be a dud, don't re-elect him! Government by the consent of the governed.....

Plus when the Soviet Union fell Cuba for about a year had no food, clean water, electricity, oil, gas, you name it and not even a hint of uprise was spoted so that means for the US plan to work alot of Cubans are going to die. The whole island could starve to death and Castro still might be in power.

Castro still rules with an iron fist, that's why! He has an easier time eliminating a few opponents on a small island than the USSR did all of the USSR. If you want my opinion, we should go in and overthrow him already! (That's the only language a power-mad dictator understands.) We failed once, we shouldn't do that again.

Yes Saddam might but Castro is too stratigic to back Saddam cause Saddam could terrorise his freinds and already terrorise his trading partners.

You don't give the people credit for intelligence, but you do Castro! Like I said, he's a power-drunk dictator!

Yhea but there is no weapons in Cuba. If he did why did he offer UN inspecters to check them? The UN is still waiting for the US to hand over their documents regarding this so they can launch a full scale sweep of the labs yet the US says the UN can't see it. It makes the US look like a 12 year old. Carter told almost all of Cuba about a non violent political party and a partition to hold referendums in Cuba for goverment reform ie getting a constitution. So to people outside the US Bush looked like a twit and Carter looked like an actul diplomat.

To SOME people. Funnily enough, Jimmy Carter has made a twit of himself on many occasions. Tell me one thing he did for Cuba during his administration. Is he qualified to tell them this stuff?

[Joe Wagner]

Originally posted by Psycho Fox
Nope but if Cuba changes becouse of us that would make us right and US wrong so a small prize would be nice but mostly we already got it with money made off Cuba so I don't think a big deal would be made over it.
But a secret poll of the Cubans living in Cuba say they don't want to be starved out. The people that are in the US don't have to worry about finding food if Cuba has a famine.

Since when did this become a competition? The Commonwealth and the United States are both seeking the same goal - the eventual freedom of the Cuban people. Just because a couple of countries have decided to do business with a dictator that rules his people with an iron fist doesn't mean they are right. The idea you are giving here is reminiscint of blood money - as long as the country makes a buck it doesn't matter how many innocents die. Also I don't think anybody in any country wants to be starved out - it's almost like taking a poll of British citizens and asking if they would like to have their leg amputated.

Originally posted by Psycho Fox
Plus what is kicking Castro out going to do without a consitition protecting Cubans. Britian would love to back rebel in Cuba but they all are like Castro and Batista when they were young so we either get another Communist dictator or a Capitalist dictator. All the democratic groups in Cuba are non violent which is okay by us since non violent rebellions work too.

After Castro is finally gone from the role of dictator the people would be given a chance to have a leader that would put the people's interest before the interests of his wallet. Also I don't think every would be leader in Cuba is exactly like Castro - especially after considering a) you have already stated that there are political parties that are seeking free choice and b) it would be like comparing every would be US leader as being exactly like Bill Clinton - something alot of our leaders in training are not. Obviously these democratic groups have a leader that would believe in the ideals of democracy - otherwise the system is flawed either way.

Originally posted by Psycho Fox
The US plan of thinking elections will solve everything is laughable as I said being able to elect your dictator is not an improvment and goverment reform needs to happen before elections is even considered.

Plus when the Soviet Union fell Cuba for about a year had no food, clean water, electricity, oil, gas, you name it and not even a hint of uprise was spoted so that means for the US plan to work alot of Cubans are going to die. The whole island could starve to death and Castro still might be in power.
Yes Saddam might but Castro is too stratigic to back Saddam cause Saddam could terrorise his freinds and already terrorise his trading partners.
Yhea but there is no weapons in Cuba. If he did why did he offer UN inspecters to check them? The UN is still waiting for the US to hand over their documents regarding this so they can launch a full scale sweep of the labs yet the US says the UN can't see it. It makes the US look like a 12 year old. Carter told almost all of Cuba about a non violent political party and a partition to hold referendums in Cuba for goverment reform ie getting a constitution. So to people outside the US Bush looked like a twit and Carter looked like an actul diplomat.

The United States believes that when a person is given something to work for they will strive to achieve it - leading to a better environment for people all the way around. The ability for the people to choose their representative is one that is hold dear to every American citizen and other Western Countries. While Cubans are given free health care and education they have nothing to work for because everything is controlled by Castro - it's at the basis of any dictatorship. If they ever do amass any type of wealth they run the risk of scaring Castro and being thrown in prision as an enemy of the state. Whenever these two items are in place the desire to achieve is severely limited and this has a detrimental effect on the society at large.

In regards to the US hoarding its information it could prove to be a fatal flaw on our part to divulge this info. This info could place the lives of our contacts at risk and by making it readily available to countries not friendly with ours we would be risking the lives of people in our employ - something we're not willing to do. Carter continued the views that he had while he was in office - he continued to look like Castro's pawn and refused to take the chance to tell the Cuban people about anything of any importance. All Carter needed to do after his speech was show the strings attached to his back and point at the puppet master. Given the current anti-American sentiment I'm not surprised to hear that countries around the world would be happy to hear the views of one of our shadier former presidents.

-Joe!

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by jjwspider


Since when did this become a competition? The Commonwealth and the United States are both seeking the same goal - the eventual freedom of the Cuban people. Just because a couple of countries have decided to do business with a dictator that rules his people with an iron fist doesn't mean they are right. Ahhh but if Cuba become free our way, we (and Cuba) will make a lot of money. The US way Cuba will need time just to get back to where it was. We have an alternative motive so sue us.


After Castro is finally gone from the role of dictator the people would be given a chance to have a leader that would put the people's interest before the interests of his wallet. Also I don't think every would be leader in Cuba is exactly like Castro - especially after considering a) you have already stated that there are political parties that are seeking free choice and b) it would be like comparing every would be US leader as being exactly like Bill Clinton - something alot of our leaders in training are not. Obviously these democratic groups have a leader that would believe in the ideals of democracy - otherwise the system is flawed either way.
Yes but the power could be tempting alot of psychologist think Castro is really just addicted to the power and without a constitution there is a good change it migth corrupt just like back in ancient Rome when Caesar got rid of the Rupublic even though the senate killed him no one bothered to put it back till after the fall of Rome. Which is why we are keep bashing Castro over the 1940 Cubain constitution enacted by Carlos Prío Socorras which Bush isn't he is too general about giving people election and such. The constitution would limmit the power the party has and mean Cuba would again have a senate. You got to admit if some one took over the US and abolished the US consitution you expect the rest of the world to fight to bring it back.


In regards to the US hoarding its information it could prove to be a fatal flaw on our part to divulge this info. This info could place the lives of our contacts at risk and by making it readily available to countries not friendly with ours we would be risking the lives of people in our employ - something we're not willing to do.

But what say Canada is suppose to do about it? We checked them in '97 found nothing we would need something to warrent us shuting the labs down again and searching them again.

Carter continued the views that he had while he was in office - he continued to look like Castro's pawn and refused to take the chance to tell the Cuban people about anything of any importance. All Carter needed to do after his speech was show the strings attached to his back and point at the puppet master. Given the current anti-American sentiment I'm not surprised to hear that countries around the world would be happy to hear the views of one of our shadier former presidents.
-Joe! Well the political party he mention was important as was their partition. I still don't see the fuss. Trudeau (ex Canadain PM,now dead) went to vist Castro near the end of the cold war tried to sell Castro the idea of abandoning Communism and tring Socialism plus brought up the 1940 constitution, Cuban history and Castro's early works when he was more normal. Didn't work but Trudeau still discussed politics and philosophy with him of course the media didn't care so it only got a foot note in history. There is nothing wrong with western leaders visting Castro just becouse your there doesn't mean you like the guy.

[Lucky Bob]

]Ahhh but if Cuba become free our way, we (and Cuba) will make a lot of money. The US way Cuba will need time just to get back to where it was. We have an alternative motive so sue us.

So, you are not for a nation being independant, as long as there's something in it for you? I see. That's a bit, shall we say "narrow minded?" :D

Yes but the power could be tempting alot of psychologist think Castro is really just addicted to the power and without a constitution there is a good change it migth corrupt just like back in ancient Rome when Caesar got rid of the Rupublic even though the senate killed him no one bothered to put it back till after the fall of Rome. Which is why we are keep bashing Castro over the 1940 Cubain constitution enacted by Carlos Prío Socorras which Bush isn't he is too general about giving people election and such. The constitution would limmit the power the party has and mean Cuba would again have a senate. You got to admit if some one took over the US and abolished the US consitution you expect the rest of the world to fight to bring it back.

Wrong, if we wanted it back (and we would), we would fight to get it back.


But what say Canada is suppose to do about it? We checked them in '97 found nothing we would need something to warrent us shuting the labs down again and searching them again.

No comment. :D

Well the political party he mention was important as was their partition. I still don't see the fuss. Trudeau (ex Canadain PM,now dead) went to vist Castro near the end of the cold war tried to sell Castro the idea of abandoning Communism and tring Socialism plus brought up the 1940 constitution, Cuban history and Castro's early works when he was more normal. Didn't work but Trudeau still discussed politics and philosophy with him of course the media didn't care so it only got a foot note in history. There is nothing wrong with western leaders visting Castro just becouse your there doesn't mean you like the guy.


All the more reason for our argument. You can always tell a dictator, but you can't tell him much! Talking with him still didn't do much good!

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by luckybob1985


So, you are not for a nation being independant, as long as there's something in it for you? I see. That's a bit, shall we say "narrow minded?" :D
It takes time and money to get involed in such matters. It is called Capitalism. Cuba can be independant all it wants be we would like to get some of that toursist dollars when Cuba becouses more free and US allows US tourist to vist Cuba.


Wrong, if we wanted it back (and we would), we would fight to get it back.

Yes but you would expect the world to as well


All the more reason for our argument. You can always tell a dictator, but you can't tell him much! Talking with him still didn't do much good! So it didn't do much harm. Okay Trudeau was an intellect and Carter is Carter but you can't hold that aginst Carter can you? I would have liked Carter to talk with Castro behind close doors without the media and touch the same points Trudeau did but then I don't expect that much from Carter.

[Lucky Bob]

It takes time and money to get involed in such matters. It is called Capitalism. Cuba can be independant all it wants be we would like to get some of that toursist dollars when Cuba becouses more free and US allows US tourist to vist Cuba.

Having a colony strictly for the purpose of advancing the homeland's wealth isn't capitalism, it's merchantillism.


Yes but you would expect the world to as well

I don't know why. The only people that came to our aid in '76 were the French. And in the Civil War, NOBODY helped.

So it didn't do much harm. Okay Trudeau was an intellect and Carter is Carter but you can't hold that aginst Carter can you? I would have liked Carter to talk with Castro behind close doors without the media and touch the same points Trudeau did but then I don't expect that much from Carter.

My point is, you can talk to Castro all you want. But if he doesn't change, then what's the point? Dictators aren't talked out of office, they are overthrown. In fact, show me one instance where a dictator has been talked to until he decided to give up control of his country.

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by luckybob1985


Having a colony strictly for the purpose of advancing the homeland's wealth isn't capitalism, it's merchantillism.

Who says it is or will ever be a colony, maybe it could be a protectorate at best but the Commonwealth is too old for the colony stuff. The homeland wealth from Cuba is gathered by private companies that own hotels and other facilities that use to be run by Castro but he can't affored any more so we took them off his hands and the homeland gets money on the taxes of the totaly income of those companies not directly from Cuba. See already there is now 2 economic systems in Cuba. Communism for Cubans and Capitalism for foreigners. When Communism falls we will be ready to make a killing before US and Cubans starts competing in the marketplace.


I don't know why. The only people that came to our aid in '76 were the French. And in the Civil War, NOBODY helped.
What I'm tring to get at is their constitution is important. The US let Batista distory it so now it is going to be harder to put Cuba back together. The international community does not really have much faith in the US regarding Cuba since it is the USs mess in the first place.


My point is, you can talk to Castro all you want. But if he doesn't change, then what's the point? Dictators aren't talked out of office, they are overthrown. In fact, show me one instance where a dictator has been talked to until he decided to give up control of his country. Talking is useful Trudeau's talks gave the Commonwealth valuable information on on Castro's psyche. Carter did do the parties that promote democracy good and they said on CNN they are happy Carter supported them. See Canada and Britain are playing head games him and Castro play head games with Canada and Britain. We try to divert his attention and think we are up to something else while we are doing something else behind his back to promote peaceful uprising. This is what most Cubans want a peaceful uprising since Cubans had enough of violent ones. Oh and as for one dictator that backed down non violently? India vs Commonwealth. While we were not a dictatorship we acted like one there.

[Lucky Bob]

Who says it is or will ever be a colony, maybe it could be a protectorate at best but the Commonwealth is too old for the colony stuff. The homeland wealth from Cuba is gathered by private companies that own hotels and other facilities that use to be run by Castro but he can't affored any more so we took them off his hands and the homeland gets money on the taxes of the totaly income of those companies not directly from Cuba. See already there is now 2 economic systems in Cuba. Communism for Cubans and Capitalism for foreigners. When Communism falls we will be ready to make a killing before US and Cubans starts competing in the marketplace.

Uh-huh. So, this whole caring about Cuba thing is profit-driven. That's the difference between you and me. The reason I support the embargo and getting Castro out of office ASAP is because I care about the Cuban people. These people have had a hard time over the years, and they need to realize the basis for freedom themselves. Of course, while the rest of the world is feeding money to Castro, he gets more powerful and the Cubans get poorer. And no amount of psychiatrists is going to change his mind about being dictator. Did you read the articles I reccomended?

What I'm tring to get at is their constitution is important. The US let Batista distory it so now it is going to be harder to put Cuba back together. The international community does not really have much faith in the US regarding Cuba since it is the USs mess in the first place.

And yet, when we do everything for a country, we're "interfering." Go figure.

Talking is useful Trudeau's talks gave the Commonwealth valuable information on on Castro's psyche. Carter did do the parties that promote democracy good and they said on CNN they are happy Carter supported them. See Canada and Britain are playing head games him and Castro play head games with Canada and Britain. We try to divert his attention and think we are up to something else while we are doing something else behind his back to promote peaceful uprising. This is what most Cubans want a peaceful uprising since Cubans had enough of violent ones.

You seem to be pretty sure of that. Who are your sources?

Oh and as for one dictator that backed down non violently? India vs Commonwealth. While we were not a dictatorship we acted like one there.

It couldn't be because of the fact that Britain might have gotten whooped if they didn't back off, could it?

[Psycho Fox]

Originally posted by luckybob1985


Uh-huh. So, this whole caring about Cuba thing is profit-driven. That's the difference between you and me. The reason I support the embargo and getting Castro out of office ASAP is because I care about the Cuban people. These people have had a hard time over the years, and they need to realize the basis for freedom themselves. Of course, while the rest of the world is feeding money to Castro, he gets more powerful and the Cubans get poorer. And no amount of psychiatrists is going to change his mind about being dictator. Did you read the articles I reccomended?
Oh like the US is doing any better at lest we brought Capitalism (Castro is still handing on to Communism though) and corruption onto the island. We were able to crack his regime a bit all you been able to do is be Castro's scapegoat and run stupid propaganda from Floria that is aimed at the wrong people. The Cuban people already know what they want. British propaganda is aimed at the Cuban millitary well some people like me think it is British propaganda since it is pirate radio from the island on millitary bands with people saying they are from the Cuban higher ups spreading corruption stories involving the top. Britian says they are not connected with it but it is a out of their play book, they did the exact same thing in during WWII so even though Castro blames it on the US yet it seems more like a British OP.


And yet, when we do everything for a country, we're "interfering." Go figure.

All you had to do was kick Batista's ass and put everything back to the way it was and run the island till the end of the election, your right next door. If Castro could do it the US could have done it. Now you have a much more powerful dictator running Cuba

You seem to be pretty sure of that. Who are your sources?
CNN yesterday interviews the Cuban democratic movement and they said they want to peacefully get goverment reform on the island and don't want US or British aid doing it for fear of reprisal.


It couldn't be because of the fact that Britain might have gotten whooped if they didn't back off, could it?
Well it was becouse our empire all over the world was collapsing so even peaceful protest were hard to control. If Castro couldn't hide behind his soliders there is a chance he will go peacefuly.

[Lucky Bob]

Oh like the US is doing any better at lest we brought Capitalism (Castro is still handing on to Communism though) and corruption onto the island. We were able to crack his regime a bit all you been able to do is be Castro's scapegoat and run stupid propaganda from Floria that is aimed at the wrong people.

Like you say, the capitalism is only for foreigners. The hotels and such are just for tourists. Cuba has a seperate world for them.

The Cuban people already know what they want. British propaganda is aimed at the Cuban millitary well some people like me think it is British propaganda since it is pirate radio from the island on millitary bands with people saying they are from the Cuban higher ups spreading corruption stories involving the top. Britian says they are not connected with it but it is a out of their play book, they did the exact same thing in during WWII so even though Castro blames it on the US yet it seems more like a British OP.

So why is Britain still doing trade with Castro if they don't like him so much? Wait, you've already said it. Profit. Okay, so it's pretty good for the time being, but you are "secretly working" to get Castro out of Cuba. Who are your sources there?

All you had to do was kick Batista's *** and put everything back to the way it was and run the island till the end of the election, your right next door. If Castro could do it the US could have done it. Now you have a much more powerful dictator running Cuba

And what kind of reaction would THAT have gotten from the international community?

CNN yesterday interviews the Cuban democratic movement and they said they want to peacefully get goverment reform on the island and don't want US or British aid doing it for fear of reprisal.

Well, there goes any plans of them joining the Commonwealth. Sorry that they're going to be independant, the way they should be!

If Castro couldn't hide behind his soliders there is a chance he will go peacefuly.

The trick is, getting him out from behind his soldiers. They're pretty fanatic...

[Maxie Zeus]

For the record, the US leases Guantanamo Bay by the Treaty of 29 May 1934, "giving the United States a perpetual lease on this reservation, capable of being voided only by [the US] abandoning the area or by mutual agreement between the two countries." --The History of Guantanamo Bay (http://www.gtmo.net/gazz/hischp3.htm)

And frankly, I think this topic would be better conducted by PMs. There are only 3 people entering the debate, and the reasoning in some areas is so bewildering as to be impossible to decipher.