X-Men: Evolution "Operation: Rebirth" Talkback (Spoilers)

[Bird Boy]

Here is the talkback for today's new X-Men: Evolution episode "Operation: Rebirth."

http://x-men.toonzone.net/gallery/images/24-30.jpg

Episode #24 - Operation: Rebirth
Original Airdate - March 30, 2002

Something very dangerous has been stolen from a high security government facility, and Wolverine is approached to help. Not only because he's their best chance of finding the thief, but because he has a past with the stolen object. A past that stretches back to his association with a most unique soldier, Captain America.

Comments?

[JohnStewart-GL]

Well what did you think of todays all new x-men evolution? I thought it was the best of this season. Captain America looked awesome! But why was Magneto older? does anyone know? Do you guys thing they'll be an ep were the cure is found?
i think it'd be cool.

[JusticeLeagueLegion]

Originally posted by JohnStewart-GL
Well what did you think of todays all new x-men evolution? I thought it was the best of this season. Captain America looked awesome! But why was Magneto older? does anyone know?

Best of the season? I thought it was the best episode period. The backgrounds were neater than usuall. And the plots can be kind of retarded sometimes...but this episode was great.

[Venom]

I was enjoyed this episode a lot. It was great seeing Captain America back on the tv. I was surprised at how old Magneto seemed to be because in "On Angels Wings" he didn't come across that old. Wolverine must be ancient. Are they ever going to get back to talking about Apocalypse... they dropped his name in at the end of that one episode and since then nothing.

[Kathy Kane]

I liked it.
But I wish that after Magneto got out of the glass and had them pinned, that Nightcrawler could asked more but the Mother line.
Plus how does Mags know about Kurt's mom, anyhow?

[Barb Gordon]

There's that one episode about Nightcrawler that deals with Rogue having gotten some memories of Kurt's. It being something in some old country in a castle and Magneto and Mystique--and Mystique being Kurt's mom. Anyhoo, I was really pleased with this ep, and yeah, Capt.America looked pretty awesome. I loved how well the WWII scenes turned out, it's pretty rare to see that in cartoon form, but I thought they pulled it off nicely. I still think Kurt should have set the bomb off, isn't Magneto going to be much stronger now that he's younger again? When they showed the one scene with Capt.America saving that kid from the camp, and the kid having magnetic powers, I was like, hey, it's just like the movie! Really cool. Logan isn't ancient, he's old, but let's see....let's say the Logan was about 30 in WWII, and that was 60 something years ago, he'd be about 90....okay yeah, that's pretty old,lol.

Barb^-^

[Sandoz]

I was pleasantly surprised by this episode. I was glad that Fury and Cap took a back seat to Wolverine's story. The scene with Wolfsbane helping Jaime with his homework was cute, and watching Logan save little Magneto was moving, in its own way. The "Are you that much like your mother?" line was cold, and great. :D I'm sick of all the mindwiping (grrr, me no like Jean) I'm eager to see mutants be exposed to humanity...but, on an odd note, when I first saw the silhouette in the Rebirth Chamber, I could have sworn it was Quicksilver! :p That would have been interesting...

[spyke]

Very surprised they included the concentration camp stuff. This was, from the little I saw of it, a great episode.

[Sandman]

Another Wolverine episode. Yawn. I actually liked this one better than Grim Reminder. Probably cause of Magneto and no Kitty. We get a little of Magneto’s past even though a concentration camp becomes a POW camp for children’s television. I think Captain America worked better as the star Marvel hero rather than bringing in someone like Spidey or Daredevil. It was somewhat easier to explain, since superheroes do not exist in the Evolution universe; at least yet. Nice scene with Kurt and Magneto at the end when Erik brings up Kurt’s mother.

My favorite scene though was of Wolfsbane helping Jamie with his homework.

Now they can thaw out Rogers and add him to that future Brotherhood/SHIELD team. Throw out Blob and Toad, replace them with Thor and Hawkeye, and you got yourself a cool Avengers/Freedom Force type team. Strike that. Keep Toad around for comedy relief. He’s too funny not to use.

[Ian]

Upon seeing this episode again, I noticed for the first time how the WW2 soldiers had real guns, a detail I had forgotten. I realized that there's a reason why it's allowed (historical accuracy), but still, it makes their absence and substitution in episodes like Cajun Spice and Uprising all the more jarring.


As to the episode itself, I think it's great. Easily the best of the seasonal Wolverine episodes.

[Mynd Hed]

Quick question-- how come the poll goes all the way up to six stars? This episode's good, but it's not THAT good. (-:

Anyway this has always been one of my favorite Evo episodes, and I was quite pleased that I managed to catch it (don't watch it regularly any more now that I've seen all of the episodes CN has aired). The only down sides were one or two cheesy segues from present to past (team of two... team of two... team of two...) and Kurt being his normal annoying self (briefings of mission paralegals and all that crap).
I also thought it was slightly dumb that Magneto would bother creating that big metal spider thingy at the end rather than just have each piece of metal move independently, and that they bothered using girders to slap Wolvie around when he could just as easily have manipulated the adamantium in his skeleton, but it was still neat to watch, so... whatever.
And other than that, great episode. Good animation as always, a nice bit of backstory for Wolvie and Magneto, a good guest star who stays in his place and doesn't take over the episode, VERY neat WWII sequences... fun stuff.

[Stu]

One of the better episodes.

It was just damn cool seeing Captain America again, who had a great design. Shame he didn't say anything, or appear again, but still it was nice seeing him.

The rest of the episode was all right, the under-utilized Wolverine having a bigger role always seems to help the show, evem more annoying stuff with Kurt couldn't diminish this episode.

****

[Rurouni Kenshin]

Captain America has to be the worst hero ever created. I mean just look at his outfit for starters.

[Stu]

Captain America has to be the worst hero ever created. I mean just look at his outfit for starters.

Out of interest, why is he the worst character ever created? His outfit is a symbol of who he is, and was designed like 60 years ago.

Have you ever heard of a character called Submarinor by any chance?

[Chosen Raven]

A poor episode. They changed Cap's origin, which was rather stupid. A concentration camp became a POW camp, another stupid move. They could have at least hinted at some people dying. To soften up war for the kiddies seems a bit disrespectful to the men who fought. Aside from being a soldier, Logan goes into the mission without using a gun(I'm probably nitpicking here, but it is rather odd). The dumbest part of the episode had to be when Rogue said she should be able to spot landmarks on the way to Magneto's base. Of course, this is the Sahara. It is largely nothing but sand dunes, which constantly change. It was only a cheesy reason to bring Rogue along. I also have to wonder why S.H.I.E.L.D. would suddenly attack Logan, instead of just asking for his help.

[Spider-Man]

This is an excerpt from a conversation over in this thread (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=126209) at the DC Animated Universe Board (http://forums.toonzone.net/forumdisplay.php?f=9) which I think would be really great to continue here. I hope nobody minds me putting it in this thread so we can discuss this further. This is where the covnersation left off:

It was not a cameo??? He was in like 50% of the episode(the visual), the only time he wasn't was when Wolverine, Nightcrawler and Rogue fought Magneto and Sabretooth in the climax and THAT would've much better if Cap was in on that too and not in contrived suspended animation like he is in every goddman animated series.

And even when he wasn't on screen the Captain America legend and the serum was 100% the crux of the entire episode(where did you think they got the name "Operation Rebirth" from anyway?? Cap's comics of course!) so for the subject of the episode to not have an actual speaking voice is just ludicrous. For someone to try and rationalize that massive glitch and say he was more mysterious and authoritative etc without one is probably giving X-Men Evolution too too much credit and it's really totally out of character for an articulate speaker and #1 leader in all of comics like one Steven Grant Rogers to go mute for so long, makes no sense for the character to act that way.

I don't get it, what do you consider a cameo, is it less than 40% or 30% or 25% of an episode, what's the official comic book animation definition of a cameo? No way was that a cameo, not in my book, he had plenty of opportunities for cogent thoughts or words. I've actually never in my life seen an episode with a major iconic character like Captain America get muted for so long, it's freaky.

I'm not saying Cap should plow in like a Deadpool and berate his enemies but jeez you would think he would utter at least one word??? Especially when he broke into the Nazi concentration camps/barracks where young Magneto was being held prisoner at least have him say "Everything's going to be okay son, NOW everyone follow me!" NOTHING, he just stares at them and waves his shield and everyone blindly follows after witnessing for the first time some seemingly a loon in a American chainmail armored super-hero duds. Not even bantering with Logan when they first meet or when the serum eats away at him doesn't tell him what's wrong???? Inexcusable!!!

I think it's a very much above average episode for X-Evo but a blown opportunity to get the most out of a Captain America appearance they possibly could. If they have the blessing from Marvel to use the character USE him and don't F around for the sake of their lil X-Men Evolution convoluted continuity. You can bet your buttocks Bruce Timm wouldn't squander a Cap appearance like that. Cap would've been done justice by Timm, I'm positive of that.

[Stu]

It was not a cameo??? He was in like 50% of the episode(the visual), the only time he wasn't was when Wolverine, Nightcrawler and Rogue fought Magneto and Sabretooth in the climax and THAT would've much better if Cap was in on that too and not in contrived suspended animation like he is in every goddman animated series.
But, he really wasn't. Kitty and Nightcrawler were in it more than Captain America.

I think the episode is one of the best Evo ever did, but it simply wasn't a team up episode. It was a flashback sequence, to explain the significance of what was about to happen in the future.

Still, Captain America fighting the Nazi planes was undoubtedly one of the coolest moments in any Marvel cartoon. I think him not speaking gave him more of an iconic presence. But that's just me.

[Spider-Man]

Still, Captain America fighting the Nazi planes was undoubtedly one of the coolest moments in any Marvel cartoon. I agree with you there. It's a great moment for the character. I don't mind that he was silent. It's quite possible any spoken dialogue could've ruined the characters presence. I don't think it's cheap or lazy just a fair decision. Perhaps the creators didn't want to risk bungling on his voice.

My favorite Captain America appearance in recent years still remains the "Old Soldiers" episode of the original X-Men cartoon.

[tedcassidy]

I can see the point made about Cap not speaking, which does seem to me like a missed opportunity as well, but... I would like to point out that Captain America was released as an awesome animation maquette/statue in the Hard Hero X-Men Evolution line. Which, is alot more than can be said for Jean Gey, Nightcrawler, and many of the X-Men, so I guess things kind of even out sometimes in other ways.......

[Wayman Tisdale]

I agree with you there. It's a great moment for the character. I don't mind that he was silent. It's quite possible any spoken dialogue could've ruined the characters presence. I don't think it's cheap or lazy just a fair decision. Perhaps the creators didn't want to risk bungling on his voice.."Ruined the characters presence" where the do you get this rationalization stuff from, is that a Boyd Kirkland quote? It's Captain America for crissakes, the man with the plan, the best leader in all of comics(chosen over Batman and Superman in Avengers/JLA crossover) he's the ultimate warrior and field general. He straight up believes in full on communication in battle ESPECIALLY with his teammates, be it the Avengers or Falcon or Bucky or Logan. For him not to talk during that long flashback made no sense for ANY incarnation of Steve Rogers, TOTALLY OUT OF CHARACTER. He has to assess the situation and know exactly where his new partner(Wolverine) is coming from. Wolverine talks, Nick Fury talks, young Magneto talks, but Cap is a mute, bullcrap, you can't possibly defend this complete and utter lazy ass character glitch.

You can possibly make Batman behave this way, Deathstroke perhaps, maybe Wolvie, maybe Daredevil, or Black Panther but not Cap, no way. Cap let's you know the score and is supposed to command the screen both physically and verbally. Cap speaks just as much as a Spider-Man can, and face it if they muted Spidey you'd be pissed too.

My favorite Captain America appearance in recent years still remains the "Old Soldiers" episode of the original X-Men cartoon.That is sooo true, once again Captain America makes for the best episode of a series, how many times has this happened with Cap as a guest star 5 or 6 times throughout the 80's and 90's. Whether it's Spider-man and His Amazing Friends or X-Men Cap's appearances generate the most buzz and fanboy praise. Wonder who should get the next animated series hmmmmm??

WHEN CAPTAIN AMERICA THROWS HIS MIGHTY SHIELD(at Avi Arad's stupid arrogant big fat face)!

[BCVM22]

"Ruined the characters presence" where the do you get this rationalization stuff from, is that a Boyd Kirkland quote? Wolverine talks, Nick Fury talks, young Magneto talks, but Cap is a mute, bullcrap, you can't possibly defend this complete and utter lazy ass character glitch.

He can if it's his opinion. Just like it's yours that it was an "utter lazy ass character glitch."

I happen to agree that if Cap had spoken any lines at all, it would have dliuted his presence in the flashbacks. That the Evo crew was able to convey his mannerisms and presence without giving him a voice is a credit to them, not a fault.

[Spider-Man]

WHEN CAPTAIN AMERICA THROWS HIS MIGHTY SHIELD(at Avi Arad's stupid arrogant big fat face)! Wow maybeyou should calm down a little bit. I agree he's a great character and has appeared in some great episodes (but not series' best) but that comment is a bit rude. I'm sure the character will get done properly soon enough. He's a great character and maybe they're waiting for just right right pitch to come along to do him right.

I happen to agree that if Cap had spoken any lines at all, it would have dliuted his presence in the flashbacks. That the Evo crew was able to convey his mannerisms and presence without giving him a voice is a credit to them, not a fault. That is exactly what I was getting at. His presence is so mighty that just by the mere flick of his shield people will follow him.

[creativerealms]

Well at least he was not trapped in another reality like in the ninties Spiderman. Still would have been nice if he talked.

[Spider-Man]

Well at least he was not trapped in another reality like in the ninties Spiderman. Still would have been nice if he talked. The even gave a nod to the whole "Captain America being frozen in a block of ice" in their own way with him in suspended animation. Plus it must have been terrible for Logan to see such an iconic character so weak in that state.

Tieing Captain America and Wolverine into the World War 2 roots of Magneto was a very clever move on the part of the creative staff. Was that idea based off the mainstream comics?

[Stu]

The even gave a nod to the whole "Captain America being frozen in a block of ice" in their own way with him in suspended animation. Plus it must have been terrible for Logan to see such an iconic character so weak in that state.

Tieing Captain America and Wolverine into the World War 2 roots of Magneto was a very clever move on the part of the creative staff. Was that idea based off the mainstream comics?

It could've been based on Magneto's portrayal in the opening scene of the first X-Men movie, with him in Poland. I'm not a massive fan of X-Men comics, but considering how close this series reflected the movies in a lot of places, it could've come from there.

[Spider-Man]

It could've been based on Magneto's portrayal in the opening scene of the first X-Men movie, with him in Poland. I'm not a massive fan of X-Men comics, but considering how close this series reflected the movies in a lot of places, it could've come from there. I didn't even think about that connection and you're probably right. But Magneto's history in the comics is rooted in his World War 2 background. His Jewish heritage is partly responsible for his beliefs in taking down his mutant oppressors. He had a great line in the Magneto two-parter from the first season where he tells the X-Men what he saw during the war. I can't remember it offhand though.

[Fuujin]

I don't remember any lines about the war in the first season of Evo... Perhaps you meant TAS? Tf so, is it this one - http://godofwind.republika.pl/wont.wav ?

[STARTOUNZ]

Well at least he was not trapped in another reality like in the ninties Spiderman. Still would have been nice if he talked.Personally, I liked it better that way. I didn't like the fact that in EVO, the procedure would wind up killing him and they would have to do the old cryonics bit to preserve him. Cap being in the vortex is much better since he's preserved without being frozen or aging. Add the fact that he could be brought out every now and then to help out some of the other superheroes like Spidey in TAS. For all we know, they could probably do this around the 100th anniversary of Cap's debut in Marvel comics as a special return issue.

[Spider-Man]

I don't remember any lines about the war in the first season of Evo... Perhaps you meant TAS? Tf so, is it this one - http://godofwind.republika.pl/wont.wav ? That is the quote and it always stood out for me. The delivery of it was so well done and it sold Magneto's motivation more than his X-Men: Evolution counterpart.

[StormDragon318]

I absoloutely loved this episode - I watched it a few days ago.

If they were going to introduce any other Marvel characters into Evo, I'm glad it was Captain America. The story was cleverly written to incorporate him in without focusing too much on him like when X23 was first introduced.

[Spider-Man]

The story was cleverly written to incorporate him in without focusing too much on him like when X23 was first introduced. That's right. The story wasn't really about him. In the end, it turned out to be more about Magneto than anything. I still love that fact that the crew acknowledged Magneto's past by throwing him into the World War 2 mix, and they did it really well.

[Spider-Man]

YTV was supposed to air this episode tonight but for some reason is airing Dark Horizons, Part 1 (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=84642) instead. I really like this episode so I wanted to bump it up anyways. This is probably the episode I've watched the most out of all of the X-Men: Evolution DVDs that I have. I also remember it being a bit controversial in how they handled Captain America.

http://x-men.toonzone.net/gallery/images/24-13.jpg

[Movie06]

Another good episode, actually one of my favorites. You know, I always find it fascinating that Logan knew Captain America. Did that happen in the comics by any chance?

[Rick Jones]

Another good episode, actually one of my favorites. You know, I always find it fascinating that Logan knew Captain America. Did that happen in the comics by any chance?
Yeah, its been shown a couple of times in the comics although Cap and Wolverine weren't quite as chummy as they are in this episode.

[Movie06]

Yeah, its been shown a couple of times in the comics although Cap and Wolverine weren't quite as chummy as they are in this episode.

That's what I thought and I figured they wouldn't be like that in the comics.

[DawnWarrior]

Any chance to see Captain America in animation is a big plus for me. I loved seeing Cap take out that plane.

There's just one problem with this episode, continuity-wise (and "Old Soldiers" does pretty much the same thing): After Logan recounts his adventure with Cap in the war, he says: "After that, it gets blurry," referring to his memory.

Waitaminute, AFTER that it gets blurry? What about before that? Does he remember stuff before the war? Does he remember enlisting? Does he remember his days as a miner in British Colombia while hanging with Rose? Shouldn't things have been blurry BEFORE the war? At least in the Ultimate books, they established that Logan doesn't remember fighting with Cap in the war (but Cap sure remembers).