Did Fred go soft after Pebbles was born?

[zoombie]

Right now the Flintstones reruns on Boomerang are up to the point in which Pebbles was born. That got me thinking of something I wondering for a long time.

Did fatherhood turn Fred Flintstone soft? I thought he may have mellowed a bit. Even Archie Bunker went soft after they adopted that girl.

I remember hearing that in an interview in later years, the influence for Fred Flintstones, Jackie Gleason said had the Honeymooners lasted longer than one season, that the Karmdens would never have kids on the show, because it would soften up his character too much, and that would hurt the dynamic of the show.

[ABrown]

There was episodes before Pebbles was born???

[EinBebop]

Did fatherhood turn Fred Flintstone soft? I thought he may have mellowed a bit. It happens to most guys.

[Master Toon]

Right now the Flintstones reruns on Boomerang are up to the point in which Pebbles was born. That got me thinking of something I wondering for a long time.

Did fatherhood turn Fred Flintstone soft? I thought he may have mellowed a bit. Even Archie Bunker went soft after they adopted that girl.

I remember hearing that in an interview in later years, the influence for Fred Flintstones, Jackie Gleason said had the Honeymooners lasted longer than one season, that the Karmdens would never have kids on the show, because it would soften up his character too much, and that would hurt the dynamic of the show.

Hmmm... I don't recall seeing any softness. I think his temper was easily extinguished whenever Pebbles would come around.

There was episodes before Pebbles was born???

Lol, yes. The Flinstones did not always have Pebbles and the Rubbles did not always have Bam-Bam. And Mr. Slate was not Fred's first boss.

[Rick Jones]

I can't really tell. I do think he'd softened up by the time Pebbles and Bamm Bamm show came around.

[Silverstar]

I can't remember if this was before or after Pebbles, but Fred was his softest during the Christmas episode. The one where he subs for Santa, who's bedridden with a cold, with no ulterior motive or get-rich-quick scheme, he sings happy holiday songs and goes through the entire 30 minutes with out even once losing his temper. I remember even as a kid watching this episode and thinking, "Who is this pod person and what has he done with the real Fred Flintstone?"

[Fibber Fox]

Did fatherhood turn Fred Flintstone soft?

No. The writers did. :)

F. Fox
http://yowpyowp.blogspot.com

[RonDrakenfan17]

When it comes to Barney, Fred seemed the same to me.

[SNES Chalmers]

When it comes to Barney, Fred seemed the same to me.

Well, yeah. Fred could never go soft on Barney, could he? That was what made the pair so great.

[Steve Carras]

Well, yeah. Fred could never go soft on Barney, could he? That was what made the pair so great.


Hello.. and I'll point out the rather, uh, COZY connection between [ugh] teenage 1971 Pebbles and Archive Bunker's earlier daughter [yep..you guessed it...Sally Struthers!]

While not the exact thing to happen to the Flinstones, I did like baby Pebbles and Bamm Bamm in "No Biz like Show Biz"....[1965], the "Open up your heart and let the sunshine in" one [and I know that the scene of them at the Hollyrock bowl crooning that one was glued onto the end of some others with the credits--"Graveberry Pie King" and "Curtain Call at Bedrock".]

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

I'm actually going through the series right now and I will say he's less macho and chauvinistic than before. The writers were kind of playing up the humour of Fred's "wussified" nature because he always went around screaming like a girl whenever something, ANYTHING happened to Pebbles. And whenever he started on his sexist rants, he'd realize that he was discriminating against Pebbles and double back on it. Meanwhile, Wilma was a lot more chillax overall. :p

[88fingers]

I think it's worth noting a couple of things on this topic. The Flintstones as a series was already changing before Pebbles was born, and there were many "test" episodes where Fred either had to deal with children or thought Wilma might be having a baby, before she actually was expecting. Something else to keep in mind, in my opinion, that everything from Mickey Mouse to Bugs Bunny to Garfield to The Simpsons had an evolution from must edgier to much cuter, physically and in personality. The Flintstones are no exception. I think there are a few reasons for this general arc. As a cartoon character or series becomes more popular, it's audience obviously expands and begins to span a wider age group, plus merchandising develops and expands, often rapidly, in a different way for cartoons than for most live action media (for the obvious reason that the characters are reproducable in a more satisfying way than most live action counterparts). I know many people prefer early Flintstones, and I agree. Still, there's something satisfying about seeing The Flintstones evolve as a family, and their lives change as the series changed.

All of this said, I'd say there's something that changed the series far more than Pebbles' birth, and that's Gazoo. I have a thought about that, perhaps worthy of another thread.

[zoombie]

I think it's worth noting a couple of things on this topic. The Flintstones as a series was already changing before Pebbles was born, and there were many "test" episodes where Fred either had to deal with children or thought Wilma might be having a baby, before she actually was expecting. Something else to keep in mind, in my opinion, that everything from Mickey Mouse to Bugs Bunny to Garfield to The Simpsons had an evolution from must edgier to much cuter, physically and in personality. The Flintstones are no exception. I think there are a few reasons for this general arc. As a cartoon character or series becomes more popular, it's audience obviously expands and begins to span a wider age group, plus merchandising develops and expands, often rapidly, in a different way for cartoons than for most live action media (for the obvious reason that the characters are reproducable in a more satisfying way than most live action counterparts). I know many people prefer early Flintstones, and I agree. Still, there's something satisfying about seeing The Flintstones evolve as a family, and their lives change as the series changed.

All of this said, I'd say there's something that changed the series far more than Pebbles' birth, and that's Gazoo. I have a thought about that, perhaps worthy of another thread.

I wonder if the series went longer, if they would have aged Pebbles and Bam Bam from babies to toddlers. Be the anti Simpsons in that aspect, even in the four seasons of Pebbles and the three seasons of Bam Bam, at some point, they should haved aged them to when they could talk a bit.

That is a little off topic, it would have been more interesting than Gazoo.

In the original series, in episodes they which they have a teenage Pebbles, she was voiced by Janet Waldo. I wonder if in the spinoff series in the 70's, they went out of the way to get anyone but Waldo to voice Pebbles in order to avoid the similarities or comparisions to Judy Jetson. I prefer Waldo's teenage Pebbles to anyone else's, but I understand they wanted her to have a voice all own her.

I am straying off topic, but since you brought up evolution of the series, maybe they should have gone further.

[88fingers]

I agree, Zoombie, it would have been smart of them to consider aging Pebbles. Certainly she ages a bit, from newborn in her birth episode, to 1ish or 2ish, but never beyond--except in the dream sequence episodes (I think there were two of those: Groom Gloom in season four, when Fred dreams that Pebbles is grown and marrying Arnold, Rip Van Flintstone in season six, when Fred dreams he's elderly and had disappeared, and Pebbles and Bamm Bamm are married--the latter is more like the spin offs in storyline, but Groom Gloom makes Pebbles look and act more like she would in the spin offs, if memory serves)

One of the spinoffs shows Pebbles and Bamm Bamm in a more advanced state of childhood, but I can't remember which (the canon thread is around here somewhere...)

[Eric B]

That was the 1977 series (which included the "Flintstone Christmas" special).
I was getting ready to mention that, but then the previous post appeared to mean something still younger than that, like still babies, but being able to talk a little bit more. That was what I originally thought Christmas Flintstone was (and was surprised; not being familiar with or remembering the series from that season), but when I began seeing that special and the series again in recent years, it was clear they were well beyond toddler age (probably 10 or so?)

[zoombie]

I agree, Zoombie, it would have been smart of them to consider aging Pebbles. Certainly she ages a bit, from newborn in her birth episode, to 1ish or 2ish, but never beyond--except in the dream sequence episodes (I think there were two of those: Groom Gloom in season four, when Fred dreams that Pebbles is grown and marrying Arnold, Rip Van Flintstone in season six, when Fred dreams he's elderly and had disappeared, and Pebbles and Bamm Bamm are married--the latter is more like the spin offs in storyline, but Groom Gloom makes Pebbles look and act more like she would in the spin offs, if memory serves)

One of the spinoffs shows Pebbles and Bamm Bamm in a more advanced state of childhood, but I can't remember which (the canon thread is around here somewhere...)

That is what I meant by grown up Pebbles voiced by Janet Waldo in the original series, two dream sequence episodes.

In the 70's, they had two series with a teenage Pebbles and Bam Bam, first the Pebbles And Bam Bam show, in which Pebbles was voices by Sally Struthers and Bam Bam voiced by Jay North, than the Flintstones Comedy Hour with North still vocing Bam Bam and Pebbles voiced by Mickey Stevens.

Of all of the three voice actresses, I liked Janet Waldo teenage Pebbles the best. I know she does her stereotype ditzy teenage girl Jeannie the baby siter voice, which she also did for Judy, but that is what I like to think the teenage Pebbles was like.

I never liked the 70's spinoffs that much, as far having an older Pebbles and Bam Bam, the dream sequence episodes in the original series, and the 90's tv movies are much better than the 70's spinoffs.

[zoombie]

That was the 1977 series (which included the "Flintstone Christmas" special).
I was getting ready to mention that, but then the previous post appeared to mean something still younger than that, like still babies, but being able to talk a little bit more. That was what I originally thought Christmas Flintstone was (and was surprised; not being familiar with or remembering the series from that season), but when I began seeing that special and the series again in recent years, it was clear they were well beyond toddler age (probably 10 or so?)

Well that would have been great to see them age to elementry school age, but that would have been too much of a time jump in the course of a series. Had the original series really lasted long time, like Simpsons type of long time, than yes eventually get to that age would have been something they should have considered. But first start with pre school age.

[88fingers]

Well, with Flintstones continuity, they could have been like Arnold, who was a different age pretty much every time you saw him!

[Steve Carras]

I wonder if the series went longer, if they would have aged Pebbles and Bam Bam from babies to toddlers. Be the anti Simpsons in that aspect, even in the four seasons of Pebbles and the three seasons of Bam Bam, at some point, they should haved aged them to when they could talk a bit.

That is a little off topic, it would have been more interesting than Gazoo.

In the original series, in episodes they which they have a teenage Pebbles, she was voiced by Janet Waldo..

Yes, glad you mention it. I cited that in the Pebbles and Bamm bamm vs Flinstoen kids spinoff. Great episode. "Groom Gloom" [9/26/63]. And I agree on getting her to do the voice. BTW notice Janet was never a Scooby girl?

[Steve Carras]

That is what I meant by grown up Pebbles voiced by Janet Waldo in the original series, two dream sequence episodes.

In the 70's, they had two series with a teenage Pebbles and Bam Bam, first the Pebbles And Bam Bam show, in which Pebbles was voices by Sally Struthers and Bam Bam voiced by Jay North, than the Flintstones Comedy Hour with North still vocing Bam Bam and Pebbles voiced by Mickey Stevens.

Of all of the three voice actresses, I liked Janet Waldo teenage Pebbles the best. I know she does her stereotype ditzy teenage girl Jeannie the baby siter voice, which she also did for Judy, but that is what I like to think the teenage Pebbles was like.

Actually the Rip Van Flinstone one had Pebbles nominal voice, Jean VanderPyl do the voice, as she'd done for baby Pebbs and for Wilma.

[Still HowardFein]

Well, yeah. Fred could never go soft on Barney, could he? That was what made the pair so great.

There are a couple of Season 4 (immediate post-childbirth) episodes in which Fred still is quite antagonistic towards 'Barney-Boy'. It's somewhat justified in Glue For Two, as it was Barney's having left his bowling ball on Fred's garage floor that caused them to be stuck together. One of the last episodes of that season, Room For Two, features one of their most vitrolic feuds caused by two things: Barney failing to vote for Fred as Water Buffalo of the Year, and Fred building his house addition over Barney's property line. Both scenarios are clearly presented as Fred's fault.

Both episodes feature plenty of Fred bellowing at Barney loud enough to cause the latter to squint, recoil, and have his clothes blown backwards (via nice George Nicholas animation), usually under a Curtin-composed 'angry' cue originated on THE JETSONS the previous season.

In a few other post-childbirth episodes, Fred will react to a typical Rubble wisecrack with a fist or utensil to head, causing the standard cartoon 'stars'. Daddy's Little Beauty ("How would you like a chiseled head?"); Royal Rubble; the alleged last original prime-time episode My Fair Freddy ("Maybe now you'll keep a level head.")

But story elements featuring them as 'partners in adventure' seemed much more prevelant toward's series' end, especially when Gazoo entered the picture. This culminated in A MAN CALLED FLINTSTONE, nominally the series' swan song: a musical number extolls the boys' status as 'Teammates'- also the first time Henry Corden stands in for Alan Reed in a singing role.

And considering Fred was supposed to be a fearless- albeit reluctant- spy in the movie, he comes off as overly warm and extremely wimpy throughout. No wisecracks, no insults, no mocking imitation of Barney's laugh.

[88fingers]

It is hard to find Man Called Flintstone any kind of satisfying ending to the original series, especially since it exhibited almost no awareness of details and stories from the series (whatever you think of the two live action movies, and I've gone back and forth, they are chock-filled with allusions and references to please any true fan).

One thing I had noticed toward the end of Season 6 was a feeling of nostalgia for the early Flintstones episodes. Maybe it's just my imagination. In the third to last episode of the series, Dripper, we get to spend some time at the backyard pool that seems to be the same one built in The Swimming Pool, the very first episode produced (and the subject of the original test cartoon, Flagstones). Barney's even wearing swimming gear, mask and flippers, that looks like what he wore in The Swimming Pool that scares Wilma into leaping into the umbrella (in Dripper, it gets him mistaken for the runaway sealasourus(s?)). In the final two episodes, My Fair Freddy (last produced, second to last to air) and The Story of Rocky's Raiders we also have flying contraptions that might make us think of the Flintstone Flyer, the second episode produced and first aired of Season 1. Although if we have our eye out for the Flintstone Flyer to make a return appearance, it would have to be the "company helio-copter" we see Slate and his son flying to catch up with Fred-as-birdman in Fred's New Job, season 3. Looks like someone, maybe his sometimes-uncle Mr. Slate, stole Barney's invention--didn't he think to patent it?

[Eric B]

The Man Called Flintstone was basically like Dr sinister, Stonefinger, and maybe a couple of others rehashed and expanded. It was sort of like the grand closing of the series, with Fred and Barney saving the world.

[Eleanor Hugbees]

Yes. What originally started out as cartoon aimed at adults became more family oriented when Pebbles was introduced. I think they even pulled cigarette ads when Pebbles showed up.