Cartoon Network's Treatment of Anime Discussion (Vol. 2)

[Jeff Harris]

Continuing the discussion from Cartoon Network's Treatment of Anime Discussion:
http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=227158

A television series can never be successful with DVD only releases. Yeah, anime series can SURVIVE on DVD only releases, as One Piece is doing, but I would never call it a success. Most people have no idea what One Piece is and they never will if it remains DVD only. Okay . . . now you've gone off on a tangent. I never said anything about DVD-only releases. What I said (and you quoted) is that airings on cable are largely there to promote the inevitable DVD release.I never said anything about DVD-only releases.

None of that has any basis in fact.Sure it does. Naruto's popularity in this country DID slip a bit because of news of something better coming, and that something better is Shippuden.

Naruto's popularity didn't wane at all until Cartoon Network removed it from the lineup.It started before it, but some people don't notice that. Naruto is not as big as it was four years ago. Sales of games, comics, and merchandise have decreased in the past two years.

As has been stated over and over again, the filler episodes surpassed the Sasuke Retrieval episodes in the ratings.And as I've stated, I want to see proof. Otherwise, it's one of those lies that, if told long and often enough, is believed to be the truth.

Well then, Totally Spies fans have every right to complain about the treatment of that show. But, I certainly am not complaining about it since Totally Spies totally sucks.Well, that's one man's opinion.

I'm really not understanding this entire line of argument. Well, you kind of brought this by saying this:

What other animation? Is there some highly rated French cartoon that Cartoon Network pulled off the air before finishing all of the episodes? Is there some French cartoon that Cartoon Network should be airing that they're not?And I answered Totally Spies. Which is correct.

I'm really not understanding this entire line of argument. Are you saying that people shouldn't be allowed to complain about Cartoon Network's treatment of Naruto because they don't also complain about Cartoon Networks treatment of Totally Spies?No.

It's not hypocritical to say that one show is excellent and another show is garbage.Never said it was.

Or are you saying that I can't say that Cartoon Network has something against anime unless I also admit that they have something against French animation?I'm not saying that either. I think Cartoon Network are just cheap.

Well fine then, maybe Cartoon Network has something against French animation. I don't really care too much if they do, but French animation fans have every reason to complain about it.Et j'ai pensé "l'idiot professionnel" était juste un surnom. I kid, I kid.

[The Overlord]

I'm afraid I still don't see your point. If Cartoon Network keeps on getting more Canadian series and then they remove one of the highest rated ones before it finishes its run, then yeah, fans of Canadian animation have every reason to complain. Isn't that obvious?

I'm just wondering why Japanese animation should get special treatment over any animation from any where else?

Ratings aren't the only factor here, Viz made more money of Naruto then CN did, because they had the merch rights. So CN felt they were spending time promoting products for another company that wasn't interested in sharing the biggest profit margins and then Viz asked for more money to air Shippuden, so CN told them to screw off. When Nick airs, say Spongebob, they get the ad revenue and the merch revenue, they don't have to share with anyone else, that's what Cartoon Network wants.

TDI has often gotten even better ratings then Naruto and the people behind TDI are willing to give the merch rights to CN. That's the difference.

Also CN had a lot of anime from 2005-2007 and it still slipped in the ratings, from the middle of 2008 to now it has had less anime and has done better in the ratings overall, so showing anime is not some magic cure that fixes everything.



Why would they?

Why does CN have obligation to air anime and not those channels? See here's the problem if CN is the only company that will air anime, that's make it a monopoly and they make any demands they want, like the merch rights.

So dubbing companies either have cave in on this demand to CN or they have target other networks or the Japanese companies have to make deals with CN themselves or they will not air.

Those are the options, you may not like them, but that's reality. CN is not going to cede the merch rights completely to third parties anymore.


That's my point. Of course Naruto hasn't surpassed Dragonball Z because it hasn't had a chance to for the simple reason that Shippuden hasn't aired yet.

Has Shippuden equaled DBZ's popularity in Japan?

[Sketch]

Has Shippuden equaled DBZ's popularity in Japan?

Not even close. Not to say it hasn't been a huge hit it just can't touch DBZ or Dragonball in Japan in general. It's usually playing 2nd fiddle to One Piece in manga sales and TV ratings amongst the major Shonen Jump series. Dragonball Kai's ratings surpass Shippudden's as well and Shippudden airs in prime time while DBK and OP air on Sunday mornings which last I checked was considered a less successful time for anime than prime time on weeknights.

If Viz, FUNimation, Bandai or Toei or anyone really were to give CN a piece of the merchandising pie for any of the successful anime out there right now they'd play it and they'd play it often. Heck they'd play complete crap if it had a merchandising tie-in that they benefited from (see Bakugan). But anime companies much less Japanese studios really have no interest in that when they know streaming will get them the exposure they need to sell new shows to audiences in the US. CN could certainly improve those numbers even if the shows only aired in death slots and for that reason Bandai will pay CN to play Code Geass like they did with other shows before it.

Viz should be willing to give CN a piece of the Shippudden pie but they clearly aren't and while I think it's a shame that CN needs more incentive to play acquisitions now than they did in previous years it's simply how the business is working these days.

We'd have One Piece on CN in a good slot if FUNimation and Toei offered CN a piece of the pie though One Piece wouldn't be that easy of a sell considering the toys never did sell and there's no reason to believe they would now.

That's why CN plays toyetic anime first and foremost. Bakugan sells merchandise like nobody's business, Naruto can't compete with that as far as toys go and CN gets a piece of the pie with Bakugan and that is why Bakugan still airs and Naruto doesn't.

Viz Media has been willing to work with CN on co-efforts before such as Toonami Jetstream. Just imagine how beneifitial it would be to them to get CN more involve with their anime licensing. Warner distributes for Viz for pete sake. I'm honestly shocked that isn't enough to get CN to play Naruto again but I guess if Warner doesn't give CN incentive to play Viz shows then CN wont just play them to help Warner out... the whole lack of synergy thing and all that jazz. Should Viz not have any interest in that FUNimation could do it but they don't need to given they already have their own channel plus streaming services. Bandai worked with CN many times in the past and they have the toy tie-in built in and they produce the Ben 10 toys. I think they may have even given CN merchandising rights for something in the past... DICE or SD Gundam perhaps? Or maybe not. Bandai and CN could bring several more toyetic series to the states I imagine though that might be counter-productive.

I imagine CN will eventually buy another series much like they bought Bakugan but it'll be another toyetic show that will have already found some success in that market. They're not interested in taking risks on untested toyetic series they're saving all their risk points on gambles for live action garbage.

[Rolling Cloud]

What other animation? Is there some highly rated French cartoon that Cartoon Network pulled off the air before finishing all of the episodes? Is there some French cartoon that Cartoon Network should be airing that they're not?

You could argue Code Lyoko.

Also, meant to respond to this yesterday before the thread closed:

Who cares? There are no swears in the Japanese language

As far as Swearing goes, so long as they hold off of any Curse words like the f-word, they're fine.

Japan has more lax standards than us.
"Chikusho" gets used ALL THE TIME and that's equivalent to the word "Damnit" for us
"Yarou" is something I commonly see translated as "A-hole" or "Bastard" and it gets used all the time. (Luffy calls a LOT Of villians this)
and Sanji ALWAYS uses "Kuso" which is their Equivalent of our s-word in EVERY INSULT HE EVER USES!! in fact, sometimes he says "Kuso Yarou" (which I would translate as "S Head")

As long as they don't use anything like "f-word" or worse, Like SOME People They're doing just fine.

^Rin speaks fluent japanese so, this quote fits

[Jeff Harris]

You could argue Code Lyoko.Yes, and it'd be an apt argument because, like Naruto, the final episodes didn't air on television.

Also, meant to respond to this yesterday before the thread closedYeah, about that. Toon Zone regulations. Thread hit 500 posts, thus, it had to continue in spinoff thread (you're standing in it).

[Rolling Cloud]

Yeah, about that. Toon Zone regulations. Thread hit 500 posts, thus, it had to continue in spinoff thread (you're standing in it).

Oh, I knew that.
Was just saying why I didn't reply to it beforehand.

[Beefy]

Yes, and it'd be an apt argument because, like Naruto, the final episodes didn't air on television.
I'm still bitter about that. Cartoon Network could have at least let Code Lyoko finish its run in a death slot instead of moving it to their lagarific video portal.
And unlike Naruto, Code Lyoko does not have all its episodes on DVD, so the old fallback of "just buy it" does not work.

Yeah, about that. Toon Zone regulations. Thread hit 500 posts, thus, it had to continue in spinoff thread (you're standing in it). What's the reason for that exactly? Is it to reduce clutter, or is vBulletin so unstable that threads will implode if they get too long?

[Jave]

What's the reason for that exactly? Is it to reduce clutter, or is vBulletin so unstable that threads will implode if they get too long?Sometimes we prefer to start new threads to continue discussion when they get too long for the sake of organizing them a bit better and not having to go through way too many pages of thread to find something. We don't have a set number of posts, but 500 is usually a good place to re-start fresh.

Yes, there are longer threads out there, but that's up to the mods on their respective boards.

[macattack]

I suppose it would make sense to repost the rules before people conveniently forget them:

1. There is a three strikes rule. If the discussion gets out of hand and degenerates into a general fight that requires mod intervention three times I will ask a CN Forums mod to lock the thread or the mods can do it themselves. Keep in mind, though, that any of the mods can lock the thread or hand out infractions at their own discretion at any given time. So don't assume the three strikes rule is the be all, end all.

2. All discussion about CN's treatment of anime will take place in the thread ONLY, and must not spread to other threads in the CN forum. If somebody takes the discussion to other threads in the CN forum the person will receive a mod warning. For discussions of the anime on CN that is airing please refer to the shows' talkbacks.

3. How AS treats anime is a matter for the AS forum. No discussion of AS anime should be in the thread unless it is a "CN should have aired Moribito, not AS" type of instance. The same goes for any other anime airing on TV, that is a subject for the Anime Forum.

4. Toonami can be mentioned but shouldn't be the dominating focus of the thread, as, after all, Toonami wasn't an anime-exclusive block.

5. No personal insults, threats, etc., etc. This also includes CN executives and staff. For example, you can say Stuart Snyder is committing a blunder but you can't call him an idiot on the thread. Be prepared to back up your statements about someone being right or wrong.

6. NO OBVIOUS CONSPIRACY THEORIES. If there's correlations or evidence to back up your statements, use them. For example, Naruto's final posted ratings was around 1.5 million total viewers.

7. You can mention anime CN could pick up that could become successful but don't make it a list post and you must provide good reasons why CN should consider the anime for pickup.

There. Remember to remain civil and not get out of hand.

I'm actually kinda amazed this made it to 500 posts. Imagine all of the venting and arguments on other threads that would have happened without this.

Like it or not, this thread is the resident punching bag of the CN forums.

[Beefy]

Ratings aren't the only factor here, Viz made more money of Naruto then CN did, because they had the merch rights. So CN felt they were spending time promoting products for another company that wasn't interested in sharing the biggest profit margins and then Viz asked for more money to air Shippuden, so CN told them to screw off.

Viz should be willing to give CN a piece of the Shippudden pie but they clearly aren't and while I think it's a shame that CN needs more incentive to play acquisitions now than they did in previous years it's simply how the business is working these days.

While the "Cartoon Network wants a larger share of the profits from airing acquisitions these days" motive is a probable one, I still would like to see a link to an interview with someone at Viz or Cartoon Network that proves this is the reason for Naruto's and other anime's absence from the network.

[Sketch]

I don't believe there is any source for that, merely speculation. I suppose it's either believe that or believe CN hates anime or that nothing has been doing well enough lately... which I don't really think is the case.

[The Overlord]

I don't believe there is any source for that, merely speculation. I suppose it's either believe that or believe CN hates anime or that nothing has been doing well enough lately... which I don't really think is the case.

Wasn't there some article from about a year ago where CN talked about focusing more domestic shows to get more money from merch?

[Sketch]

Which backs up the theory that the only anime CN will be willing to play would be ones they get a piece of the pie from. CN didn't make most of what they are airing on their current line-up but despite that they have various incentives that will make airing those shows (even in crappy slots) worth bothering with. Be it a possible pay-out from the distributor or a cut of the profits from the franchise.

They're not so much focusing on domestic shows they own more so just shows they own a part of.

[macattack]

The problem is that few Japanese companies are willing to let CN have a piece of the pie. They'd rather go to the "middlemen" in Bandai Entertainment/FUNimation/Viz/Media Blasters who will ensure the product isn't edited any more than necessary and won't undergo Americanization.

Toei is the only company that has been willing to let a network get a piece of the product (YTV with Pretty Cure) and that show got Americanized in the process. I am sure the other companies are noting that and may not be as willing to sell their products to networks because of such occurances (although other than the Americanization YTV reportedly let a lot slide).

Cartoon Network of today isn't the Cartoon Network of 2005. They may let stuff slide but they WILL Americanize the product judging by the few anime that do air. Will networks be willing to tolerate Americanization and CN taking a cut of everything to get their products on the air?

This is why I think Cartoon Network is planning on making an "American anime" factory by looking at portfolios at an anime convention and such. They want original ideas by anime-influenced Americans and get them animated so they can catch a piece of the anime market without having to deal with Japanese companies (other than hiring them for animation, perhaps) and having complete control of the content so any editing if needed happens in pre-production where it is a lot less costly.

I am sure TMS, Sunrise, and Madhouse wouldn't mind animating for US networks and companies again if they get some nice cash.

[The Overlord]

The problem is that few Japanese companies are willing to let CN have a piece of the pie. They'd rather go to the "middlemen" in Bandai Entertainment/FUNimation/Viz/Media Blasters who will ensure the product isn't edited any more than necessary and won't undergo Americanization.

Toei is the only company that has been willing to let a network get a piece of the product (YTV with Pretty Cure) and that show got Americanized in the process. I am sure the other companies are noting that and may not be as willing to sell their products to networks because of such occurances (although other than the Americanization YTV reportedly let a lot slide).

Cartoon Network of today isn't the Cartoon Network of 2005. They may let stuff slide but they WILL Americanize the product judging by the few anime that do air. Will networks be willing to tolerate Americanization and CN taking a cut of everything to get their products on the air?

Wasn't Toei the one who suggested the Americanization?

If that's the case, then One Piece will likely never air on CN. CN isn't air it unless they get the merch rights, so like I said anime companies have four options: the dubbing companies give in to CN's demands on the merch rights, the companies target other networks (like Nick or Disney), Japanese companies make deals with CN themselves or it doesn't air TV. You may not like those options, but that's the reality.

CN is corporation, not some art house commune, they don't care about saving the anime industry in NA or whether Naruto franchise is dying or not, they want to make as much money as they can off the shows they air.

Ultimate dubbing companies like Viz would need CN more then CN needs them, CN has other options, Viz doesn't have a lot of options. CN seems to have no problem not airing some anime in order to squeeze companies like Viz. Ultimately since has done better in the ratings overall in 2008 when they aired less anime, then 2005-2007 when they aired a ton, so they are far less likely to not play hard ball with dubbing companies.

Companies like Nelevana and 4Kids are more likely to play ball with CN then Viz is, they are more likely to air their shows.

[Ian Hatfield]

4Kids paid CN to air their stuff. Just saying.

The notion that CN isn't airing anime because they won't air anything they don't have merchandising rights do is very stupid. For starters, that kind of thing simply is not done in the television industry. When a channel, either broadcast of cable, gets the rights to a show, it's almost always just the airing rights. That's it. Occasionally they might get the home video rights to it, but even that isn't done that often. No channel gets money from whatever random products bear said franchises name unless they made said franchise. That's just how it is, Bakugan and TDI notwithstanding.

Also, CN wasn't involved in the production of Bakugan or TDI. Bakugan was dubbed by CN before they acquired it, and Teletoon made TDI.

[Sketch]

The problem is that few Japanese companies are willing to let CN have a piece of the pie. They'd rather go to the "middlemen" in Bandai Entertainment/FUNimation/Viz/Media Blasters who will ensure the product isn't edited any more than necessary and won't undergo Americanization.

Toei is the only company that has been willing to let a network get a piece of the product (YTV with Pretty Cure) and that show got Americanized in the process. I am sure the other companies are noting that and may not be as willing to sell their products to networks because of such occurances (although other than the Americanization YTV reportedly let a lot slide).

Cartoon Network of today isn't the Cartoon Network of 2005. They may let stuff slide but they WILL Americanize the product judging by the few anime that do air. Will networks be willing to tolerate Americanization and CN taking a cut of everything to get their products on the air?

This is why I think Cartoon Network is planning on making an "American anime" factory by looking at portfolios at an anime convention and such. They want original ideas by anime-influenced Americans and get them animated so they can catch a piece of the anime market without having to deal with Japanese companies (other than hiring them for animation, perhaps) and having complete control of the content so any editing if needed happens in pre-production where it is a lot less costly.

I am sure TMS, Sunrise, and Madhouse wouldn't mind animating for US networks and companies again if they get some nice cash.

Man... where to start with a rebuttal to this? Well here goes.

Cartoon Network didn't make Bakugan or Pokemon as they are, I don't imagine they even mandated edits to Blue Dragon those were all the choices of the distributors. Naruto was nearly uncut as was MAR and The Prince of Tennis (replaced music not-with-standing). Cartoon Network has no issue with Japanesey anime. They never have and never will because they understand there is an audience for untainted Japanese animation. What do you think Toonami was doing all those years by airing anime? Sure many of them were edited but CN never mandated Americanization, they're not 4kids for pete sake.

I think the one case in which they did might have been One Piece but honestly I believe that was Toei's decision to avoid confusion with the current viewers. It may have been CN's decision to keep the editing that strict though. That's not americanization though, that's editing. There's a difference. Why Naruto got away with it and One Piece didn't... probably for the same reason why Family Guy can't do some jokes The Simpson's can.

CN isn't trying to make an American anime factory. They're going to Anime Expo to look at portfolios of animation enthusiasts. Why Anime Expo? Well it's a huge convention for one thing one of the largest in the US for any media convention. They'll probably go to Comic Con as well if this proves worth their while. They're not trying to make Americanime... they're trying to find new talent (mostly likely so they can't fire some old talent they don't want to keep paying).

Lastly... Toei, Pierrot, TMS and the other animators of largely successful youth anime don't mind when their shows get quote on quote "butchered" if it's going to get them bank. Toei practically asks for it. Pierrot might have a few shows they prevent from getting hacked up but what about Blue Dragon? Clearly they didn't care and why would they if they still got their money? They should care but you're being dellusional if you think they do. Why do you think 4kids can produce the crap they do? Because the Japanese studios don't mind when they alter their intellectual property. It's all about money. Not about entertainment, the quality or the artistic intent. Heck the manga-ka don't tend to be bothered by such things either. You'd think Toriyama would be disgusted with Fox for Dragonball Evolution but is he? Well he hasn't really made that vocal and even if he thinks so he's too happy with the extra success (worldwide anyway, not so much here) the franchise got from that crappy movie. Enough to get a sequel apparently.

CN's current business strategy seems to be "we get a cut, or we don't want your show" and so far it's working well for them so I doubt they'll stop doing it. This applies to all acquisitions including of course the ones from Japan. But CN isn't out to make their own anime-esque shows nor are they out to butcher current Japanese shows to suit their needs. They just want shows that will sell product. That's all there really is to it. If they don't think it will sell toys they have no reason to persue it. They'll leave what little "let's play it cause it's awesome and we like it" sentiments to Adult Swim be glad we still have Saturday night (for now).

[The Overlord]

4Kids paid CN to air their stuff. Just saying.

The notion that CN isn't airing anime because they won't air anything they don't have merchandising rights do is very stupid. For starters, that kind of thing simply is not done in the television industry. When a channel, either broadcast of cable, gets the rights to a show, it's almost always just the airing rights. That's it. Occasionally they might get the home video rights to it, but even that isn't done that often. No channel gets money from whatever random products bear said franchises name unless they made said franchise. That's just how it is, Bakugan and TDI notwithstanding.

Also, CN wasn't involved in the production of Bakugan or TDI. Bakugan was dubbed by CN before they acquired it, and Teletoon made TDI.

I'm sorry but the merch theory makes more sense, then the idea CN walking up one morning, and deciding they hated everything from Japan.

You are ignoring the fact that most American kids channels make their own stuff and then air it on their channels, they don't bother airing stuff from other places, because these channels want to create the merch for themselves and keep all the profits to themselves.

When Nick airs Spongebob, they keep all the profits from it, they don't have to share anything. That's likely why Nick almost never airs foreign shows. That's what CN wants, shows where they piece of all the action, not shows where they cede the biggest profit margins to a third party.

[macattack]

Man... where to start with a rebutal to this? Well here goes.

Cartoon Network didn't make Bakugan or Pokemon as they are, I don't imagine they even mandated edits to Blue Dragon those were all the choices of the distributors. Naruto was nearly uncut as was MAR and The Prince of Tennis (replaced music not-with-standing). Cartoon Network has no issue with Japanesey anime. They never have and never will because they understand there is an audience for untainted Japanese animation. What do you think Toonami was doing all those years by airing anime? Sure many of them were edited but CN never mandated Americanization, they're not 4kids for pete sake.

I think the one case in which they did might have been One Piece but honestly I believe that was Toei's decision to avoid confusion with the current viewers. It may have been CN's decision to keep the editing that strict though. That's not americanization though, that's editing. There's a difference. Why Naruto got away with it and One Piece didn't... probably for the same reason why Family Guy can't do some jokes The Simpson's can.

CN isn't trying to make an American anime factory. They're going to Anime Expo to look at portfolios of animation enthusiasts. Why Anime Expo? Well it's a huge convention for one thing one of the largest in the US for any media convention. They'll probably go to Comic Con as well if this proves worth their while. They're not trying to make Americanime... they're trying to find new talent (mostly likely so they can't fire some old talent they don't want to keep paying).

Lastly... Toei, Pierrot, TMS and the other animators of largely successful youth anime don't mind when their shows get quote on quote "butchered" if it's going to get them bank. Toei practically asks for it. Pierrot might have a few shows they prevent from getting hacked up but what about Blue Dragon? Clearly they didn't care and why would they if they still got their money? They should care but you're being dellusional if you think they do. Why do you think 4kids can produce the crap they do? Because the Japanese studios don't mind when they alter their intellectual property. It's all about money. Not about entertainment, the quality or the artistic intent. Heck the manga-ka don't tend to be bothered by such things either. You'd think Toriyama would be disgusted with Fox for Dragonball Evolution but is he? Well he hasn't really made that vocal and even if he thinks so he's too happy with the extra success (worldwide anyway, not so much here) the franchise got from that crappy movie. Enough to get a sequel apparently.

CN's current business strategy seems to be "we get a cut, or we don't want your show" and so far it's working well for them so I doubt they'll stop doing it. This applies to all acquisitions including of course the ones from Japan. But CN isn't out to make their own anime-esque shows nor are they out to butcher current Japanese shows to suit their needs. They just want shows that will sell product. That's all there really is to it. If they don't think it will sell toys they have no reason to persue it. They'll leave what little "let's play it cause it's awesome and we like it" sentiments to Adult Swim be glad we still have Saturday night (for now).

I don't know if it is even possible to make a rebuttal to this . . .

I never said that CN mandated Bakugan and Pokemon to be the way they are. The distributors did that. I know that and understand that. What I meant is that there must be a reason why the only anime on-the-air are Americanized offerings. Cartoon Network never did have a problem with Japanese offerings but somewhere along the way the untainted anime got shunted off the lineup piece by piece. Even Naruto is gone now.

I do feel that CN wants to make an Americanime factory. Why? Because it makes sense for them to do so. I actually look at that as a good idea for the network. They get control over everything that happens to the show, they don't just "get a cut". They get EVERYTHING besides paying the fees to the animation studio. As long as the show looks like anime, sounds like anime, and has a pair of pop songs cut to 1:30 over slick visuals the average American kid will believe the show is anime.

How hard would it be to approach Pierrot or Sunrise or TMS? What you need is a detailed show concept and story, get enough budget to produce a 50-episode show, hire the animators and studio, hire NYAV Post to make a NY/LA co-pro dub with Mike Sinterklaas (sic) and Marc Thompson directing so you're getting competence at a value price, grab six Warner Music Group artists for 2 OPs and 4 EDs, produce an OST or two from Kajiura/Iwasaki/Naoki/some other hotshot and you will have your American anime. And you have complete control over the property. All money made will be for Cartoon Network.

I am under no illusions that the Japanese want money to be made from their products. But they clearly prefer going to the middlemen. FUNimation is the current darling of the Japanese companies (at least until the recent streaming fiasco) because FUNi treats each and every property like it is golden. They will dub the show faithfully enough to get the show's story and point across but they do it loosely enough so things don't sound unnatural or awkward. FUNi is dubbing Dragonaut of all things with their most golden VAs, for instance.

I am happy AS is still airing anime on Saturday nights. As long as Bleach remains strong it should stay. AS is clearly happy with Bleach right now because they made a bump celebrating it. They might even shove the show back on weeknights if Bleach keeps it up.

I am not an insane otaku. Don't start thinking I've turned into one. I just think there is something rotten behind the scenes, and it is not just about Japanese animation. I frankly think Code Lyoko got a raw deal, too, along with anything foreign that's not from Canada.

[The Overlord]

I don't know if it is even possible to make a rebuttal to this . . .

I never said that CN mandated Bakugan and Pokemon to be the way they are. The distributors did that. I know that and understand that. What I meant is that there must be a reason why the only anime on-the-air are Americanized offerings. Cartoon Network never did have a problem with Japanese offerings but somewhere along the way the untainted anime got shunted off the lineup piece by piece. Even Naruto is gone now.

I do feel that CN wants to make an Americanime factory. Why? Because it makes sense for them to do so. I actually look at that as a good idea for the network. They get control over everything that happens to the show, they don't just "get a cut". They get EVERYTHING besides paying the fees to the animation studio. As long as the show looks like anime, sounds like anime, and has a pair of pop songs cut to 1:30 over slick visuals the average American kid will believe the show is anime.

How hard would it be to approach Pierrot or Sunrise or TMS? What you need is a detailed show concept and story, get enough budget to produce a 50-episode show, hire the animators and studio, hire NYAV Post to make a NY/LA co-pro dub with Mike Sinterklaas (sic) and Marc Thompson directing so you're getting competence at a value price, grab six Warner Music Group artists for 2 OPs and 4 EDs, produce an OST or two from Kajiura/Iwasaki/some other hotshot and you will have your American anime. And you have complete control over the property. All money made will be for Cartoon Network.

I am under no illusions that the Japanese want money to be made from their products. But they clearly prefer going to the middlemen. FUNimation is the current darling of the Japanese companies (at least until the recent streaming fiasco) because FUNi treats each and every property like it is golden. They will dub the show faithfully enough to get the show's story and point across but they do it loosely enough so things don't sound unnatural or awkward. FUNi is dubbing Dragonaut of all things with their most golden VAs, for instance.

I am happy AS is still airing anime on Saturday nights. As long as Bleach remains strong it should stay. AS is clearly happy with Bleach right now because they made a bump celebrating it. They might even shove the show back on weeknights if Bleach keeps it up.

I am not an insane otaku. Don't start thinking I've turned into one. I just think there is something rotten behind the scenes, and it is not just about Japanese animation. I frankly think Code Lyoko got a raw deal, too, along with anything foreign that's not from Canada.

I haven't seen any evidence that CN plans on producing their own anime like shows, its not like they have made any or have any development so far. Besides CN did want make thier own anime like shows

I don't think CN cares about whether an anime is untainted or not, Nelevana and 4Kids just gave them better deals on their shows then Viz would. Americanized, untainted, CN doesn't care, they care about whether they get merch rights or not at this point. CN doesn't care if Funi treats their shows like they are golden, they want the merch rights. CN doesn't care about any of that. That may not have been an as much of an issue in the past, but hey its tougher times and CN is getting somewhat more ambitious, CN is going to want to get more cash out of the shows they air.

I don't think there is evil scheme against any foreign show not from Canada, CN just wants more money out of the shows its airs.

Again no matter what you want or no matter how much dislike it, there are only four options for anime in NA: dubbing companies giving into CN demands over the merch rights, dubbing companies start targeting other networks, the Japanese companies doing a deal with CN themselves or anime doesn't air on a major cable network.

[Jeff Harris]

A little clarification of sorts:

@The Overlord:

Back in 2005, Turner Broadcasting and Japanese investor group Itochi Corporation (who owns 50% of Cartoon Network Japan) announced plans to finance and co-produce Japanese-made animation projects. The initial plans were to simultaneously premiere them on Cartoon Network in the US and terrestrially in Japan. They brought in studios and such to help develop projects and planned on creating merchandising and other opportunities. Here's the plan (http://www.itochu.co.jp/main/news/2005/news_050202e.html) from back in February 2005, and it's a good plan. This wasn't Japanese-like projects as macattack suggested, but actual made-in-Japan projects that Cartoon Network would own half of outright.

But here's the thing. It never came into being. Which is a shame really. Nobody's taking the blame as to why the deal fizzled. For all we know, it probably hasn't fizzled, but it's been over four years, and nothing came from it since the initial announcement. And that's . . . depressing.

@macattack:

You could scratch Warner Music Group from any dream scenario you have for one simple fact. Time Warner doesn't own Warner Music Group and hasn't for the better part of the decade. As a matter of fact, the only music division of Time Warner is Williams Street Records, which is ran by our good friend Jason DeMarco.

@King Hippo:

There's no actual proof that 4Kids paid Cartoon Network to air their programming, and unless you can offer significant and actual proof (not some random post from a fan forum or news site nor an anonymous source from a so-called insider) from a credible source, then it's just rumor, falsehoods, and conjectures.

[macattack]

@macattack:

You could scratch Warner Music Group from any dream scenario you have for one simple fact. Time Warner doesn't own Warner Music Group and hasn't for the better part of the decade. As a matter of fact, the only music division of Time Warner is Williams Street Records, which is ran by our good friend Jason DeMarco.

Ah, I forgot that WMG got spun off. Alas. Still, Williams Street Records seems to have good relations with a lot of indie labels and artists, if the Adult Swim compliations mean anything. DeMarco's doing a good job of running the label.

That's a fascinating article and post you have there about those plans. I wonder why nothing's ever came out of it. I assume IGPX wasn't part of that deal, though, judging from what you're saying. Maybe IGPX's mediocre ratings scared CN out of the deal?

Part of me wants to post an example of something CN could turn into a anime-like series and another part of me is wondering what the point is. Ugh.



[warnerbroman]

A little clarification of sorts:

@The Overlord:

Back in 2005, Turner Broadcasting and Japanese investor group Itochi Corporation (who owns 50% of Cartoon Network Japan) announced plans to finance and co-produce Japanese-made animation projects. The initial plans were to simultaneously premiere them on Cartoon Network in the US and terrestrially in Japan. They brought in studios and such to help develop projects and planned on creating merchandising and other opportunities. Here's the plan (http://www.itochu.co.jp/main/news/2005/news_050202e.html) from back in February 2005, and it's a good plan. This wasn't Japanese-like projects as macattack suggested, but actual made-in-Japan projects that Cartoon Network would own half of outright.

But here's the thing. It never came into being. Which is a shame really. Nobody's taking the blame as to why the deal fizzled. For all we know, it probably hasn't fizzled, but it's been over four years, and nothing came from it since the initial announcement. And that's . . . depressing.. well I did not know that, but there was enough anime on CN for us mot to worry about then

As a matter of fact, the only music division of Time Warner is Williams Street Records, which is ran by our good friend Jason DeMarco..so..could they do it?

@King Hippo:

There's no actual proof that 4Kids paid Cartoon Network to air their programming, and unless you can offer significant and actual proof (not some random post from a fan forum or news site nor an anonymous source from a so-called insider) from a credible source, then it's just rumor, falsehoods, and conjectures.Agreed

"(not some random post from a fan forum or news site nor an anonymous source from a so-called insider)"...like you?

[mkalv]

At this point, I think that CN will only air anime if there is a lot of money in it for them.

[Jeff Harris]

"(not some random post from a fan forum or news site nor an anonymous source from a so-called insider)"...like you?Touche. But here's the thing. How do you know I'm NOT at Techwood? For all you know, I could be a high-profile guy who created a alternative personality with a common, yet obvious pen name because he doesn't want his bosses to know about the criticisms about the company he's in, though everybody around him knows who he is?

[HG Revolution]

Touche. But here's the thing. How do you know I'm NOT at Techwood? For all you know, I could be a high-profile guy who created a alternative personality with a common, yet obvious pen name because he doesn't want his bosses to know about the criticisms about the company he's in, though everybody around him knows who he is?

...

That makes way too much sense...

[warnerbroman]

Touche. But here's the thing. How do you know I'm NOT at Techwood? For all you know, I could be a high-profile guy who created a alternative personality with a common, yet obvious pen name because he doesn't want his bosses to know about the criticisms about the company he's in, though everybody around him knows who he is?uhhh...hey look over there!

[macattack]

Touche. But here's the thing. How do you know I'm NOT at Techwood? For all you know, I could be a high-profile guy who created a alternative personality with a common, yet obvious pen name because he doesn't want his bosses to know about the criticisms about the company he's in, though everybody around him knows who he is?

That would be one hell of an Internet caper. And it makes my head hurt. :sweat:

[soundmonkey44]

Jeff works with Jak Harkins!!! Oh wait, thats Torchwood, not Techwood. LULZ! Im sure If Mr. Harris Had some Inside Information that we would all like to know, but theres still a 50/50 chance weather he's telling the Truth or Lyeing! I would love to hear a little insider hint if your statement is true. :evil:

BOT: I agree with others that CN is pretty just airing Animes they can gain money from. I.E. Toyetic animes. I would'nt be suprised to see the Next Bayblade series on CN, once it gets dubbed.

[Mickialla]

Jeff works with Jak Harkins!!! Oh wait, thats Torchwood, not Techwood. LULZ! Im sure If Mr. Harris Had some Inside Information that we would all like to know, but theres still a 50/50 chance weather he's telling the Truth or Lyeing! I would love to hear a little insider hint if your statement is true. :evil:


Uhhh, why would he give a small hint on the internet and risk losing his job?

[Beefy]

Back in 2005, Turner Broadcasting and Japanese investor group Itochi Corporation (who owns 50% of Cartoon Network Japan) announced plans to finance and co-produce Japanese-made animation projects. The initial plans were to simultaneously premiere them on Cartoon Network in the US and terrestrially in Japan. They brought in studios and such to help develop projects and planned on creating merchandising and other opportunities. Here's the plan (http://www.itochu.co.jp/main/news/2005/news_050202e.html) from back in February 2005, and it's a good plan. This wasn't Japanese-like projects as macattack suggested, but actual made-in-Japan projects that Cartoon Network would own half of outright.

But here's the thing. It never came into being. Which is a shame really. Nobody's taking the blame as to why the deal fizzled. For all we know, it probably hasn't fizzled, but it's been over four years, and nothing came from it since the initial announcement. And that's . . . depressing.
I was wondering what became of that project.
It's a shame we haven't heard any further news about it.

[Master Moron]

Continuing the discussion from Cartoon Network's Treatment of Anime Discussion:
http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=227158

Okay . . . now you've gone off on a tangent. I never said anything about DVD-only releases. What I said (and you quoted) is that airings on cable are largely there to promote the inevitable DVD release.I never said anything about DVD-only releases.[SIZE=1]

You told someone, Rust, I think, that they can always just buy the DVDs, which is always a pointless argument, but yeah, we've beaten this horse to death.

Sure it does. Naruto's popularity in this country DID slip a bit because of news of something better coming, and that something better is Shippuden.

It started before it, but some people don't notice that. Naruto is not as big as it was four years ago. Sales of games, comics, and merchandise have decreased in the past two years.

And as I've stated, I want to see proof. Otherwise, it's one of those lies that, if told long and often enough, is believed to be the truth.

Funny how you expect me to provide proof of Naruto's ratings, yet you provide no proof of declining sales. Anyway, what kind of proof do you need? Do you just not believe that the filler episodes of Naruto made the top 10 lists or do you merely believe that those were isolated incidents?

I'm just wondering why Japanese animation should get special treatment over any animation from any where else?

Ratings aren't the only factor here, Viz made more money of Naruto then CN did, because they had the merch rights. So CN felt they were spending time promoting products for another company that wasn't interested in sharing the biggest profit margins and then Viz asked for more money to air Shippuden, so CN told them to screw off. When Nick airs, say Spongebob, they get the ad revenue and the merch revenue, they don't have to share with anyone else, that's what Cartoon Network wants.


People on this thread keep on stating that Cartoon Network asked Viz for more money. Does anyone have any evidence of this or is this just speculation?

[The Overlord]

You told someone, Rust, I think, that they can always just buy the DVDs, which is always a pointless argument, but yeah, we've beaten this horse to death.



Funny how you expect me to provide proof of Naruto's ratings, yet you provide no proof of declining sales. Anyway, what kind of proof do you need? Do you just not believe that the filler episodes of Naruto made the top 10 lists or do you merely believe that those were isolated incidents?



People on this thread keep on stating that Cartoon Network asked Viz for more money. Does anyone have any evidence of this or is this just speculation?

Its an assumption I'm making because I saw some stuff a year go saying they wanted to make shows where they control the merch rights and recently they have been more willing to show programs where they have a piece of the merch right. Considering most of the shows CN is showing now, have CN involved with the merch of the show, it seems likely to me.

That theory makes way more sense then saying CN woke up one mornng, decided to be xenophobic, decided they hate everything from Japan and won't show it. I have seen no evidence of that.

[Raidon Makoto]

That theory makes way more sense then saying CN woke up one mornng, decided to be xenophobic, decided they hate everything from Japan and won't show it. I have seen no evidence of that.
Its not really that. What I'm proposing is that the current executives don't appreciate Japanese animation. There are people out there that irrationally hate all animation from Japan, and perhaps these executives are that. But, right now, it seems like they have all animation. XD

[macattack]

Its not really that. What I'm proposing is that the current executives don't appreciate Japanese animation. There are people out there that irrationally hate all animation from Japan, and perhaps these executives are that. But, right now, it seems like they have all animation. XD

Without calling people out by name, some of those people post here too. They just plain hate anime for no reason. One of them said that he/she would never watch any anime that was not Americanized and edited, and would also purge CN of Pokemon, 5D's, and Bakugan if she/he ever ran the network.

Of course, the shoe's on the other foot, there's people who hate Western animation and they will only view what the Japanese make. They are just as diehard and equally asinine.

[The Overlord]

Its not really that. What I'm proposing is that the current executives don't appreciate Japanese animation. There are people out there that irrationally hate all animation from Japan, and perhaps these executives are that. But, right now, it seems like they have all animation. XD

Again can you prove that?

Then explain how CN still shows more anime, then Nick, Nicktoons, Disney Channel, Disney XD, put together?

CN still shows anime, just anime that is about selling toys and anime where CN has access to the merch rights.

Logically speaking my theory makes more sense then you presented.

[The Wolverine]

Its not really that. What I'm proposing is that the current executives don't appreciate Japanese animation. There are people out there that irrationally hate all animation from Japan, and perhaps these executives are that. But, right now, it seems like they have all animation. XD
Once again, you are merely assuming things that can't be proven.

[Jeff Harris]

You told someone, Rust, I think, that they can always just buy the DVDs, which is always a pointless argument, but yeah, we've beaten this horse to death.It is. But you're still beating it. And you're right. I did tell Rust you can always just buy the DVDs if you want your Japanese animation fix. That's not pointless. That's common sense. And it's great for the economy.

Funny how you expect me to provide proof of Naruto's ratings, yet you provide no proof of declining sales. Anyway, what kind of proof do you need? Do you just not believe that the filler episodes of Naruto made the top 10 lists or do you merely believe that those were isolated incidents?To be fair, I have the numbers, but it's going to take me a while to put them all together in a neatly-packed post for your perusal. But I have more important things to do. But yeah, Naruto book sales were often in the top 20 of the New York Times and USA Today best sellers lists, but as early as May 2008, their rankings dipped below the top 100. I have the numbers, but, again, I have more important things to do than chronicle the popularity decline of Naruto.

Also, just so you know, the children's top 10 isn't the same as the general audience top 10, and shows on Cartoon Network rarely make the top 20 let alone the top 10. For example:

Nielsen Ratings from the week of ending May 24

Key:
Rank - Shows - NET - DAY - Time - Viewers Live+SD (000)

1 CAVALIERS/MAGIC TNT Sun 08:36P-11:45P 8969
2 NUGGETS/LAKERS ESPN Tue 08:57P-11:55P 8085
3 NUGGETS/LAKERS ESPN Thu 08:56P-11:56P 7886
4 MAGIC/CAVALIERS TNT Wed 08:36P-11:34P 7321
5 MAGIC/CAVALIERS TNT Fri 08:35P-11:41P 6910
6 WWE ENTERTAINMENT USA Mon 10:00P-11:06P 5200
7 WWE ENTERTAINMENT USA Mon 09:00P-10:00P 5032
8 NCIS USA Sat 10:00P-11:00P 4151
9 SPONGEBOB NICK Sat 11:30A-12:00P 3917
10 NCIS USA Mon 07:00P-08:00P 3911
11 NCIS USA Mon 08:00P-09:00P 3911
12 SPONGEBOB NICK Sat 12:00P-12:30P 3826
13 NIGHT AT THE MUSEUM FX Sun 09:00P-11:30P 3715
14 NCIS USA Sat 08:00P-09:00P 3674
15 NCIS USA Fri 07:00P-08:00P 3653
16 SPONGEBOB NICK Sat 11:00A-11:30A 3653
17 PENGUINS OF MADAGASCAR NICK Sat 10:00A-10:30A 3600
18 NCIS USA Sat 09:00P-10:00P 3557
19 INSIDE THE NBA PLAYOFFS TNT Wed 11:34P-12:10A 3504
20 SPORTSCENTER LATE L ESPN Thu 11:56P-01:00A 3474

Cartoon Network shows do break into millions, but they rarely crack the top 20. For example, the Powerpuff Girls marathon was the highest-rated programming the week ending on January 25, 2009. If memory serves, that was also the last weekend Naruto aired on Cartoon Network. It did respectable with 1.5 million viewers, but it got beat by the Powerpuff Girls [2.4 million], a new episode of of Clone Wars (which had a half a million more viewers than Naruto), a new episode of Brave and the Bold, and a repeat of the same episode of Clone Wars. Of course, there were special circumstances that week (President Obama got inaugurated), but if you take out all the news and inauguration programming that day, Cartoon Network shows still didn't make the top 20.

If you're curious, the highest-rated Nickelodeon show, a Saturday afternoon showing of Spongebob Squarepants, had 4.5 million viewers total. Not just kids, but all audiences. On a Saturday afternoon.

Again, I have the numbers at my disposal, but I have better things to do.

People on this thread keep on stating that Cartoon Network asked Viz for more money. Does anyone have any evidence of this or is this just speculation?I knew folks who worked for ADV Films and Bandai and I know folks at Viz and Cartoon Network, and they've told me how Cartoon Network handles acquisitions behind the scenes. In the past, Cartoon Network got a little cut of sales whenever the "As Seen on Cartoon Network's Toonami/Adult Swim" sticker was affixed on videos, games, and merchandising. If it aired on Cartoon Network, Toonami, or Adult Swim, chances are you saw the sticker. That's why you saw the old checkerboard logo on DBZ, Sailor Moon, Gundam, Tenchi, Lupin III, Yu Yu Hakusho, Hamtaro, Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo, and InuYasha merchandising. ADV's relationship with Cartoon Network was brief, but it did work to both of their advantages. Kiba and Super Milk Chan both had the "As Seen on Cartoon Network/Adult Swim" stickers and ADV got some visibility on those products.

Naruto was one of the first not to have the Cartoon Network branding on anything they produced. Viz chose not to offer Cartoon Network promotional rights to the series, even though Cartoon Network gave it a weekly (and briefly, a daily) showcase for the show, free advertising, and a prime access point for advertisers if you want to use the Madison Avenue pointy-haired word. Viz sold a lot of Naruto merchandising, and Cartoon Network did ask for a slither of the merchandising rights. Viz said no, and the relationship kind of soured afterwards. Same deal with One Piece. Cartoon Network wanted a slither of the merchandising rights, Viz, who manages the property domestically, said no, and the show was dropped, much to Funimation's surprise.

Cartoon Network is playing hardball with third-party shows, which is why only certain ones get on the air these days. If they're marketable, they want a piece of the property. Not the whole thing, just a piece. It's no different than what Disney Channel, Nickelodeon, and 4Kids does, and yet, people question if it's true? That's the way the industry works. And people in the industry will tell you that.

Once again, I have proof, but I have better things to do.

[Ian Hatfield]

Wow.

So you're telling me that if Viz had just stuck a little "as seen on Cartoon Network" sticker on Naruto DVDs, video games, and toys, the show would still be on? And the same for One Piece?

I can't even blame the network for not keeping it on. No one should do business with a company that greedy.

[Raidon Makoto]

Again can you prove that?
Can you prove your theory? All this is is a discussion of postulates. Quite honestly, I believe that the only reason that Toon would disclude anime from its lineup would be because it is xenophobic. Its only my opinion, just as your opinion is that CN wanted a piece of the pie.
Once again, you are merely assuming things that can't be proven.
We're all assuming things. It doesn't make my theory any more wrong than yours.

[Beefy]

Naruto was one of the first not to have the Cartoon Network branding on anything they produced. Viz chose not to offer Cartoon Network promotional rights to the series, even though Cartoon Network gave it a weekly (and briefly, a daily) showcase for the show, free advertising, and a prime access point for advertisers if you want to use the Madison Avenue pointy-haired word. Viz sold a lot of Naruto merchandising, and Cartoon Network did ask for a slither of the merchandising rights. Viz said no, and the relationship kind of soured afterwards. Same deal with One Piece. Cartoon Network wanted a slither of the merchandising rights, Viz, who manages the property domestically, said no, and the show was dropped, much to Funimation's surprise.
You've been holding out on us again Jeff. I wish you mentioned this sooner.

The question now is will Viz be able to make their properties succeed on their own or elsewhere, or will they come crawling back to Cartoon Network?

[The Overlord]

Can you prove your theory? All this is is a discussion of postulates. Quite honestly, I believe that the only reason that Toon would disclude anime from its lineup would be because it is xenophobic. Its only my opinion, just as your opinion is that CN wanted a piece of the pie.

.

Except my theory is based more logical deduction and Occam's razor then the you presented.

You claim that CN hates anime, yet they show more anime then Nick, Disney and all their direct competitors put together. How do you explain Now let's look at the anime they show, most of it is merch driven and we know CN gets the merch rights to Bakugan. If they hate hate anime why do they air at all, unless there is another motive at play.

Besides wasn't there a lot of talk about year ago of CN focusing on its own shows to make money of merch from those shows?

Circumstancal evidence doesn't support your theory.

Wow.

So you're telling me that if Viz had just stuck a little "as seen on Cartoon Network" sticker on Naruto DVDs, video games, and toys, the show would still be on? And the same for One Piece?

I can't even blame the network for not keeping it on. No one should do business with a company that greedy.

And who is less greedy, Disney the guys who made Bambi II? Almost every entertainment company on the planet is very very greedy and unless Viz can strike a deal with someone else, like Nick or Disney, CN is there only cable option they have and that makes CN a monopoly, thus they can make any demands they want.

[Jave]

I have the two Naruto video games on the Wii.

The first one (released October 2007) has the "As seen on CN" logo.

The second one (released October 2008) does not have the logo.

What's the logic behind that?

[chdr]

You know, that actually makes more sense than "OMGZ CARTOON NETWORK IS RACIST!!!!".

It also makes me a bit angry at Viz for being so cocky and greedy.

I have the two Naruto video games on the Wii.

The first one (released October 2007) has the "As seen on CN" logo.

The second one (released October 2008) does not have the logo.

What's the logic behind that? I also happen to own a Naruto game (Ultimate Ninja for PS2), circa 2006 (around Naruto's heyday), and CN is nowhere on it.

I guess Viz realized that CN didn't like them not acknowledging them when they started shafting the show, but it was too little too late at that point.

[macattack]

I have the two Naruto video games on the Wii.

The first one (released October 2007) has the "As seen on CN" logo.

The second one (released October 2008) does not have the logo.

What's the logic behind that?

Assumption: CN HAD some merch rights and then Viz took them away.

Geez, Jeff, holding out on us again. Why didn't you mention these things earlier? Would have saved a lot of arguing. :sweat: Thanks for the info, though. It's nice that we finally have something conclusive here. I wouldn't mind if you did find some time to post your proof, though.

If I were FUNimation I would yank the anime management from Viz by any means necessary and give CN some merch rights so the show could get back on.

As for Viz . . . they're paying for no TV exposure right now. Naruto is becoming increasingly less visible without CN's broadcast. Viz HAS to get the show back on CN or the property will fade away.

[The Overlord]

I have the two Naruto video games on the Wii.

The first one (released October 2007) has the "As seen on CN" logo.

The second one (released October 2008) does not have the logo.

What's the logic behind that?

The most simple explanation was Viz and CN had a better relationship in 2007 then they did 2008, which makes sense.

[Jave]

And who is less greedy, Disney the guys who made Bambi II? Almost every entertainment company on the planet is very very greedy and unless Viz can strike a deal with someone else, like Nick or Disney, CN is there only cable option they have and that makes CN a monopoly, thus they can make any demands they want.Viz has tons of options. Cartoon Network is not a monopoly by any definition of the word.

[Jeff Harris]

Quite honestly, I believe that the only reason that Toon would disclude anime from its lineup would be because it is xenophobic. We're all assuming things. It doesn't make my theory any more wrong than yours.Yeah, but the whole xenophobia Cartoon Network supposedly has doesn't hold much water because:

1.) Cartoon Network still airs animation from Japan. Granted, it's not the anime you want to see, and many of them are rather toyetic, but they all come from from the land of the Rising Sun, not some alterniverse version of Japan that exists in America.

2) Cartoon Network picks up programming from Canada. Canada isn't the United States, and xenophobia means one has a fear of foreigners. Canada, although similar, is still a foreign country. How could one be xenophobic against one foreign country but not another?

3) Cartoon Network still airs Japanese animation, primarily the ones you want to see, on its Adult Swim subchannel. Even though they claim to be separate entities, they're not, especially in the grand scheme of things. You know who is Mike Lazzo's boss? Stuart Snyder. The same guy who supposed to be xenophobic because he doesn't air Japanese animation on Cartoon Network. And Adult Swim is probably the most xenophillic block on television today with programming from Japan, Canada, the UK, and, of course, the USA.

Three pretty valid excuses that prove Cartoon Network isn't xenophobic.

[The Overlord]

Viz has tons of options. Cartoon Network is not a monopoly by any definition of the word.

I said cable options, sure they have other options, but will that make the franchise as successful as when it aired on CN? What other cable options do they have?

[Silverstar]

I said cable options, sure they have other options, but will that make the franchise as successful as when it aired on CN? What other cable options do they have?

Well, there's Siffy...er, I mean SyFy, for one. Nickelodeon/Nicktoons Network and Disney XD could air anime if they wanted to, they just choose not to for whatever reason; not that they need to, since those channels are doing well enough without Japanimation.

Tech TV used to show anime, before it was devoured by G4, and G4 could show anime; it wouldn't be any more off-point than the shows they do air.

[The Wolverine]

Yeah, but the whole xenophobia Cartoon Network supposedly has doesn't hold much water because:

1.) Cartoon Network still airs animation from Japan. Granted, it's not the anime you want to see, and many of them are rather toyetic, but they all come from from the land of the Rising Sun, not some alterniverse version of Japan that exists in America.

2) Cartoon Network picks up programming from Canada. Canada isn't the United States, and xenophobia means one has a fear of foreigners. Canada, although similar, is still a foreign country. How could one be xenophobic against one foreign country but not another?

3) Cartoon Network still airs Japanese animation, primarily the ones you want to see, on its Adult Swim subchannel. Even though they claim to be separate entities, they're not, especially in the grand scheme of things. You know who is Mike Lazzo's boss? Stuart Snyder. The same guy who supposed to be xenophobic because he doesn't air Japanese animation on Cartoon Network. And Adult Swim is probably the most xenophillic block on television today with programming from Japan, Canada, the UK, and, of course, the USA.

Three pretty valid excuses that prove Cartoon Network isn't xenophobic.
And what most of us have been saying this entire time... only to be ignored.

[Master Moron]

Without calling people out by name, some of those people post here too. They just plain hate anime for no reason. One of them said that he/she would never watch any anime that was not Americanized and edited, and would also purge CN of Pokemon, 5D's, and Bakugan if she/he ever ran the network.

Of course, the shoe's on the other foot, there's people who hate Western animation and they will only view what the Japanese make. They are just as diehard and equally asinine.

Well, to be fair, I would probably purge CN of Pokemon, 5D's, and Bakugan as well.

To be fair, I have the numbers, but it's going to take me a while to put them all together in a neatly-packed post for your perusal. But I have more important things to do. But yeah, Naruto book sales were often in the top 20 of the New York Times and USA Today best sellers lists, but as early as May 2008, their rankings dipped below the top 100. I have the numbers, but, again, I have more important things to do than chronicle the popularity decline of Naruto.

Also, just so you know, the children's top 10 isn't the same as the general audience top 10, and shows on Cartoon Network rarely make the top 20 let alone the top 10. For example:

Nielsen Ratings from the week of ending May 24

Key:
Rank - Shows - NET - DAY - Time - Viewers Live+SD (000)

1 CAVALIERS/MAGIC TNT Sun 08:36P-11:45P 8969
2 NUGGETS/LAKERS ESPN Tue 08:57P-11:55P 8085
3 NUGGETS/LAKERS ESPN Thu 08:56P-11:56P 7886
4 MAGIC/CAVALIERS TNT Wed 08:36P-11:34P 7321
5 MAGIC/CAVALIERS TNT Fri 08:35P-11:41P 6910
6 WWE ENTERTAINMENT USA Mon 10:00P-11:06P 5200
7 WWE ENTERTAINMENT USA Mon 09:00P-10:00P 5032
8 NCIS USA Sat 10:00P-11:00P 4151
9 SPONGEBOB NICK Sat 11:30A-12:00P 3917
10 NCIS USA Mon 07:00P-08:00P 3911
11 NCIS USA Mon 08:00P-09:00P 3911
12 SPONGEBOB NICK Sat 12:00P-12:30P 3826
13 NIGHT AT THE MUSEUM FX Sun 09:00P-11:30P 3715
14 NCIS USA Sat 08:00P-09:00P 3674
15 NCIS USA Fri 07:00P-08:00P 3653
16 SPONGEBOB NICK Sat 11:00A-11:30A 3653
17 PENGUINS OF MADAGASCAR NICK Sat 10:00A-10:30A 3600
18 NCIS USA Sat 09:00P-10:00P 3557
19 INSIDE THE NBA PLAYOFFS TNT Wed 11:34P-12:10A 3504
20 SPORTSCENTER LATE L ESPN Thu 11:56P-01:00A 3474

Cartoon Network shows do break into millions, but they rarely crack the top 20. For example, the Powerpuff Girls marathon was the highest-rated programming the week ending on January 25, 2009. If memory serves, that was also the last weekend Naruto aired on Cartoon Network. It did respectable with 1.5 million viewers, but it got beat by the Powerpuff Girls [2.4 million], a new episode of of Clone Wars (which had a half a million more viewers than Naruto), a new episode of Brave and the Bold, and a repeat of the same episode of Clone Wars. Of course, there were special circumstances that week (President Obama got inaugurated), but if you take out all the news and inauguration programming that day, Cartoon Network shows still didn't make the top 20.

If you're curious, the highest-rated Nickelodeon show, a Saturday afternoon showing of Spongebob Squarepants, had 4.5 million viewers total. Not just kids, but all audiences. On a Saturday afternoon.

Again, I have the numbers at my disposal, but I have better things to do.

I'm not really sure how anyone could have expected Naruto to do as well as Batman or Clone Wars considering the terrible timeslot and lack of promotion. And that still doesn't really answer the question of how the Naruto fillers compared to the Sasuke retrieval arc, which I believe was what we were arguing about. You said the ratings dropped during the fillers, which I contested. Now yes, I'm realize the ratings have dropped since the year that Naruto has first appeared, but the promotion has also dropped, so that's no surprise. The Sasuke Retrieval arc never got in the top 10, if I recall correctly, and it was never promoted either.

I knew folks who worked for ADV Films and Bandai and I know folks at Viz and Cartoon Network, and they've told me how Cartoon Network handles acquisitions behind the scenes. In the past, Cartoon Network got a little cut of sales whenever the "As Seen on Cartoon Network's Toonami/Adult Swim" sticker was affixed on videos, games, and merchandising. If it aired on Cartoon Network, Toonami, or Adult Swim, chances are you saw the sticker. That's why you saw the old checkerboard logo on DBZ, Sailor Moon, Gundam, Tenchi, Lupin III, Yu Yu Hakusho, Hamtaro, Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo, and InuYasha merchandising. ADV's relationship with Cartoon Network was brief, but it did work to both of their advantages. Kiba and Super Milk Chan both had the "As Seen on Cartoon Network/Adult Swim" stickers and ADV got some visibility on those products.

Naruto was one of the first not to have the Cartoon Network branding on anything they produced. Viz chose not to offer Cartoon Network promotional rights to the series, even though Cartoon Network gave it a weekly (and briefly, a daily) showcase for the show, free advertising, and a prime access point for advertisers if you want to use the Madison Avenue pointy-haired word. Viz sold a lot of Naruto merchandising, and Cartoon Network did ask for a slither of the merchandising rights. Viz said no, and the relationship kind of soured afterwards. Same deal with One Piece. Cartoon Network wanted a slither of the merchandising rights, Viz, who manages the property domestically, said no, and the show was dropped, much to Funimation's surprise.

Cartoon Network is playing hardball with third-party shows, which is why only certain ones get on the air these days. If they're marketable, they want a piece of the property. Not the whole thing, just a piece. It's no different than what Disney Channel, Nickelodeon, and 4Kids does, and yet, people question if it's true? That's the way the industry works. And people in the industry will tell you that.

Once again, I have proof, but I have better things to do.

Do you realize that if what you're saying is true, you could have settled this argument 30 pages ago?

[Ian Hatfield]

You know, now that I think about it, it all makes perfect sense. Zatch Bell never being picked back up. The quick death of MAR and Prince of Tennis. Blue Dragon lasting only three months. It's because Viz refused to give Cartoon Network an expected piece of the pie. And it really wasn't unreasonable for CN to expect what it asked for. After all, it had always gotten that from their other Toonami shows.

[The Overlord]

Well, there's Siffy...er, I mean SyFy, for one. Nickelodeon/Nicktoons Network and Disney XD could air anime if they wanted to, they just choose not to for whatever reason; not that they need to, since those channels are doing well enough without Japanimation.

Tech TV used to show anime, before it was devoured by G4, and G4 could show anime; it wouldn't be any more off-point than the shows they do air.

Sci Fi won't air it because so far they have only aired anime that is sci fi related, which Naruto is not and just because those other stations could air anime doesn't mean they will. Cable wise Viz either has to convicne one of these other channels to ir it or deal with CN's demands.

Well, to be fair, I would probably purge CN of Pokemon, 5D's, and Bakugan as well.



I'm not really sure how anyone could have expected Naruto to do as well as Batman or Clone Wars considering the terrible timeslot and lack of promotion. And that still doesn't really answer the question of how the Naruto fillers compared to the Sasuke retrieval arc, which I believe was what we were arguing about. You said the ratings dropped during the fillers, which I contested. Now yes, I'm realize the ratings have dropped since the year that Naruto has first appeared, but the promotion has also dropped, so that's no surprise. The Sasuke Retrieval arc never got in the top 10, if I recall correctly, and it was never promoted either.



Do you realize that if what you're saying is true, you could have settled this argument 30 pages ago?

The Naruto's ratings don't matter as much if the sticking point is the merch rights.

Plus CN's ratings overall have gotten way better in the last year, when they haven't shows as much anime, compared to 2005-2007 when they showed a ton of anime, so they may feel, based on that, less of a need to air anime.

[Beefy]

Sci Fi won't air it because so far they have only aired anime that is sci fi related, which Naruto is not ...
If Sci Fi can air Street Fighter and Ninja Scroll (which they did) then Naruto should not be a problem.

[The Overlord]

If Sci Fi can air Street Fighter and Ninja Scroll (which they did) then Naruto should not be a problem.

I doubt they would though, Naruto would be seen as a kids show in the US, because it aired on CN, making it unlikely that it would air on Sci Fi.

[chdr]

I doubt they would though, Naruto would be seen as a kids show in the US, because it aired on CN, making it unlikely that it would air on Sci Fi.From what I hear, trademarks for a Syfy Kids block are being registered.

[mkalv]

I doubt they would though, Naruto would be seen as a kids show in the US, because it aired on CN, making it unlikely that it would air on Sci Fi.

Rave Master also aired on CN, and guess where it is now? And Rave Master is MUCH more childish and lighter-toned.

[Raidon Makoto]

There are too many posts to quote, so I'll sum it all up here. Xenophobia doesn't necessarily entail hating everything foreign, you can pick and choose your xenophobia. However, I think that the Xenophobia stems more from Toon trying to purge itself of everything Pre-Snyder, and anime was one of the major things.

Now, in response to the merchandise thing, after Toonami was canceled, Toon gave up all the licenses to all of their anime except for Naruto and those toyetic ones (they removed them from their Shows page). If what Jeff says is true, Toon probably had a stake in Dragonball Z's merchandise (which is still going strong, btw), but Toon gave that up too. Now, if they're looking for money, why would they give up on one of the top-selling anime franchises for the past ten years, especially if they still have a stake in it? The only answer is that they are trying to get rid of everything pre-Snyder, with anime being one of those things.

[firecrouch]

SyFy so far hasn't aired any anime that'd be for a younger audience.

At Anime Expo 2006 I got the impression that VIZ wasn't all there with T.V. broadcast. I've mentioned this before but at their panel that year they mentioned the reason that their DVD release for "Full Moon" was so slow had to do with the fact that they were trying to get it on T.V. and didn't want the dub to get too far ahead. I fear they're trying to do the same thing with "Naruto Shippuden".

If you want a sliver of hope, I checked the "One Piece" section on the website of Toei Animation's American branch and noticed that for the character profiles they're using 4Kids dub terms (Same goes for the "Pretty Cure" section, they changed the character profiles to reflect the YTV dub), even though all that's available right now is the uncut, unedited version. So it looks like the prospects of seeing "One Piece" back on T.V. aren't over yet. And personally I see a synergetic relationship between American and Canadian channels, they're constantly airing each other's shows.

[firecrouch]

From what I hear, trademarks for a Syfy Kids block are being registered.

Wasn't that just a hypothetical example in the press release talking about the brand change?

[Jeff Harris]

There are too many posts to quote, so I'll sum it all up here. Xenophobia doesn't necessarily entail hating everything foreign . . . Sure it does. That's what it means. Xenos and phobos. "Fear of anything foreign."

. . . you can pick and choose your xenophobia.You can, which is why some folks in our government want to put a physical border between us and our southern neighbor than us and our northern neighbor, but that's politics, and that's kind of forbidden around these parts. Plus, I kind of think it's a bit absurd that xenophobia is even a part of this discussion.

However, I think that the Xenophobia stems more from Toon trying to purge itself of everything Pre-Snyder, and anime was one of the major things.The fact that Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh were on Cartoon Network pre-Snyder and still there kind of negates that statement. Pokemon had been a part of Cartoon Network off and on since 2001 and it became an exclusive part of the lineup since 2006. Yu-Gi-Oh had also been off and on Cartoon Network since 2002. GX was exclusive to Cartoon Network in 2006, and 5D's is only the latest to come to the network. Snyder had only been in charge since the summer of 2007.

Now, in response to the merchandise thing, after Toonami was canceled, Toon gave up all the licenses to all of their anime except for Naruto and those toyetic ones (they removed them from their Shows page).By the time Toonami was canceled, a majority of the Japanese animation titles that made it up on-air and online were, in some way or another, connected to Viz Media, whether through production or licensing. And yes, that includes Dragon Ball Z (Viz has publishing and some licensing rights to the franchise, and one of their their parent companies, Shueisha, actually owns the property outright).

If what Jeff says is true, Toon probably had a stake in Dragonball Z's merchandise (which is still going strong, btw), but Toon gave that up too. Now, if they're looking for money, why would they give up on one of the top-selling anime franchises for the past ten years, especially if they still have a stake in it?It's not that strong if memory serves. Nobody's really buying DBZ merchandising as much as they used to. Plus, unless they make an entirely new (i.e. not a reediting of an existing show for the HD generation nor more very loose theatrical adaptations), Dragon Ball, as a property, is pretty much dormant. I hesitate to call it dead, because every so often, Master Toriyama does something special with the characters, whether it's a comic like the DBZ/One Piece crossover Cross Epoch or last year's Jump Fiesta animated special, both of which aren't America-bound any time soon.

Like I said before, Dragon Ball (the property, not just the series of that name) is distributed and partially licensed in this country by Funimation, but Shueisha, one of Viz's parent companies, actually owns, publishes, and partially licenses the property here and everywhere. Most likely, Dragon Ball Z's end was mutual between Cartoon Network and Funimation, the show's distributor, because right now, both had done everything they could with the franchise at this time. The show had been a part of Cartoon Network's lineup for a decade, and that's pretty damned good for any show to have that kind of longevity on any network, let alone Cartoon Network. It's the only series that had been a part of all five hosts' reigns on Toonami.

The only answer is that they are trying to get rid of everything pre-Snyder, with anime being one of those things.It's not the only answer. And even that's not an answer because the presence of two pre-Snyder Japanese titles on the current lineup (see above) is proof of that hypothesis being wrong.

[Mickialla]

It's not that strong if memory serves. Nobody's really buying DBZ merchandising as much as they used to. Plus, unless they make an entirely new (i.e. not a reediting of an existing show for the HD generation nor more very loose theatrical adaptations), Dragon Ball, as a property, is pretty much dormant. I hesitate to call it dead, because every so often, Master Toriyama does something special with the characters, whether it's a comic like the DBZ/One Piece crossover Cross Epoch or last year's Jump Fiesta animated special, both of which aren't America-bound any time soon.


Kind of feel like jumping in here.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but while DBZ merch isn't as popular as it once was. It still sells considerably well. And in my personal opinion, the main reason merchandise sales are going down is because, like you said, nothing has been done with the characters. DBZ has been off of CN for what now, 2 years? If they bring it back and promote it (maybe if they bring DBZ Kai here), kids interest will probably go up because

1) Kids still know what DBZ is. The current generation of kids were probably still watching DBZ 2 or 3 years ago and most definitely remember it, especially with the new movie (despite how bad it was).

2) Kids still like DBZ. The current generation of kids liked DBZ a few years ago, and probably don't remember everything that happened in the show. Therefore, if the show came back on, I'm sure those same kids (who've only aged 2 or 3 years) would come back to watch remastered reruns.

I'm no business expert, but I think that makes sense.

[The Overlord]

There are too many posts to quote, so I'll sum it all up here. Xenophobia doesn't necessarily entail hating everything foreign, you can pick and choose your xenophobia. However, I think that the Xenophobia stems more from Toon trying to purge itself of everything Pre-Snyder, and anime was one of the major things.

Now, in response to the merchandise thing, after Toonami was canceled, Toon gave up all the licenses to all of their anime except for Naruto and those toyetic ones (they removed them from their Shows page). If what Jeff says is true, Toon probably had a stake in Dragonball Z's merchandise (which is still going strong, btw), but Toon gave that up too. Now, if they're looking for money, why would they give up on one of the top-selling anime franchises for the past ten years, especially if they still have a stake in it? The only answer is that they are trying to get rid of everything pre-Snyder, with anime being one of those things.

You still haven't answered one important question, something that contradicts your whole theory, if CN hates anime, why do they air more anime then Disney, Nick and all their other direct competitors put together put together?

This theory is very flawed, it doesn't match the circumstances or the facts.

I mean what makes more sense, that CN is merely greedy and wants more money out of the shows or that CN is an evil, xenophopia entity, that hates Japan?

Kind of feel like jumping in here.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but while DBZ merch isn't as popular as it once was. It still sells considerably well. And in my personal opinion, the main reason merchandise sales are going down is because, like you said, nothing has been done with the characters. DBZ has been off of CN for what now, 2 years? If they bring it back and promote it (maybe if they bring DBZ Kai here), kids interest will probably go up because

1) Kids still know what DBZ is. The current generation of kids were probably still watching DBZ 2 or 3 years ago and most definitely remember it, especially with the new movie (despite how bad it was).

2) Kids still like DBZ. The current generation of kids liked DBZ a few years ago, and probably don't remember everything that happened in the show. Therefore, if the show came back on, I'm sure those same kids (who've only aged 2 or 3 years) would come back to watch remastered reruns.

I'm no business expert, but I think that makes sense.

Still not as profitable as merch from TV shows that are still on TV nowadays. Besides how much of the DBZ merch profits does CN get compared to Funi?

[Raidon Makoto]

The fact that Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh were on Cartoon Network pre-Snyder and still there kind of negates that statement. Pokemon had been a part of Cartoon Network off and on since 2001 and it became an exclusive part of the lineup since 2006. Yu-Gi-Oh had also been off and on Cartoon Network since 2002. GX was exclusive to Cartoon Network in 2006, and 5D's is only the latest to come to the network. Snyder had only been in charge since the summer of 2007.
I neglected to mention the fact that I'm still of the belief that Toon is getting paid off to air Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh! 5Ds

By the time Toonami was canceled, a majority of the Japanese animation titles that made it up on-air and online were, in some way or another, connected to Viz Media, whether through production or licensing. And yes, that includes Dragon Ball Z (Viz has publishing and some licensing rights to the franchise, and one of their their parent companies, Shueisha, actually owns the property outright).

It's not that strong if memory serves. Nobody's really buying DBZ merchandising as much as they used to. Plus, unless they make an entirely new (i.e. not a reediting of an existing show for the HD generation nor more very loose theatrical adaptations), Dragon Ball, as a property, is pretty much dormant. I hesitate to call it dead, because every so often, Master Toriyama does something special with the characters, whether it's a comic like the DBZ/One Piece crossover Cross Epoch or last year's Jump Fiesta animated special, both of which aren't America-bound any time soon.

Like I said before, Dragon Ball (the property, not just the series of that name) is distributed and partially licensed in this country by Funimation, but Shueisha, one of Viz's parent companies, actually owns, publishes, and partially licenses the property here and everywhere. Most likely, Dragon Ball Z's end was mutual between Cartoon Network and Funimation, the show's distributor, because right now, both had done everything they could with the franchise at this time. The show had been a part of Cartoon Network's lineup for a decade, and that's pretty damned good for any show to have that kind of longevity on any network, let alone Cartoon Network. It's the only series that had been a part of all five hosts' reigns on Toonami.
Except for the Orange Bricks, Steelbook Movies, manga, and the numerous toylines Bandai has made. DBZ is still selling, just not as much as it did in its heyday.

You still haven't answered one important question, something that contradicts your whole theory, if CN hates anime, why do they air more anime then Disney, Nick and all their other direct competitors put together put together?
Because that anime is on Adult Swim. While I realize that Toon owns [as], from what I understand, Williams Street has been fighting the execs tooth and nail in order to keep anime on [as].

I mean what makes more sense, that CN is merely greedy and wants more money out of the shows or that CN is an evil, xenophopia entity, that hates Japan?Like I said, anime doesn't fit in to the new vision of a Cartoon Network completely different from the Higgens and Samples reigns. Snyder just hit the reset button on the network and got rid of everything from before him, no matter if it worked or not because, I'm assuming, their belief is that the only to keep Cartoon Network from failing is to try to get people to believe they're completely different.

[Ian Hatfield]

Heck, I still see DBZ toys at my local drug store.

[The Overlord]

Because that anime is on Adult Swim. While I realize that Toon owns [as], from what I understand, Williams Street has been fighting the execs tooth and nail in order to keep anime on [as].

Pokemon, Bakugan and Yugi air on CN if CN hates all things Japan, why are they still on?

Notice how all 3 of shows are merch driven, see a pattern?


Like I said, anime doesn't fit in to the new vision of a Cartoon Network completely different from the Higgens and Samples reigns. Snyder just hit the reset button on the network and got rid of everything from before him, no matter if it worked or not because, I'm assuming, their belief is that the only to keep Cartoon Network from failing is to try to get people to believe they're completely different.

Except Yugi and Pokemon have aired in the past before the current era and they are airing now.

Also who made more money off DBZ merch, CN or Funi, who had the merch rights for that?

[Mickialla]

Still not as profitable as merch from TV shows that are still on TV nowadays. Besides how much of the DBZ merch profits does CN get compared to Funi?

Which is why they should put the show back on TV to recreate interest. The show hasn't aired in 2 years and it still sells well. Put it back on TV and you've got yourself a cash cow.

IMO it doesn't matter how much CN makes as a profit compared to Funi. A profit is a profit.

[The Overlord]

Which is why they should put the show back on TV to recreate interest. The show hasn't aired in 2 years and it still sells well. Put it back on TV and you've got yourself a cash cow.

IMO it doesn't matter how much CN makes as a profit compared to Funi. A profit is a profit.

It does matter though, CN wants its fingers in all the pies and likely won't air a show unless it gets piece of all the action.

Why would they want to air show that would create merch profits for another company, instead of a show that would create merch profits for them?

[Ian Hatfield]

Overlord, please stop asking the same question over and over again. You're not going to get the answer that you want.

[macattack]

Like I said, anime doesn't fit in to the new vision of a Cartoon Network completely different from the Higgens and Samples reigns. Snyder just hit the reset button on the network and got rid of everything from before him, no matter if it worked or not because, I'm assuming, their belief is that the only to keep Cartoon Network from failing is to try to get people to believe they're completely different.

One thing that hasn't been brought up is that the current Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh! franchises are completely different from the ones that were on pre-Snyder. 5D's is an edgier take on the franchise that has very little to do with previous YGO installments, and the current Pokemon relies on a mostly different dub cast from the 4kids Pokemon.

[Rolling Cloud]

Pokemon, Bakugan and Yugi air on CN if CN hates all things Japan, why are they still on?

Notice how all 3 of shows are merch driven, see a pattern?

To be fair, 5D's is more plot-driven than merch driven. Yes, it still shows off new cards but, it hasn't been shoving them in your face like Duel Monsters and GX did.

It's not that strong if memory serves. Nobody's really buying DBZ merchandising as much as they used to. [...] I hesitate to call it dead, because every so often, Master Toriyama does something special with the characters, whether it's a comic like the DBZ/One Piece crossover Cross Epoch or last year's Jump Fiesta animated special, both of which aren't America-bound any time soon.

When he remembers them that is. :p

[The Overlord]

Overlord, please stop asking the same question over and over again. You're not going to get the answer that you want.

Questions like these address points that some are not addressing and offer counter point to theories (like CN being xenophobic) that I think have no basis. Its an question worth asking, so I see no problem asking it.

One thing that hasn't been brought up is that the current Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh! franchises are completely different from the ones that were on pre-Snyder. 5D's is an edgier take on the franchise that has very little to do with previous YGO installments, and the current Pokemon relies on a mostly different dub cast from the 4kids Pokemon.

But if Cartoon Network hates anime, why are showing them at all?

[Light Lucario]

One thing that hasn't been brought up is that the current Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh! franchises are completely different from the ones that were on pre-Snyder. 5D's is an edgier take on the franchise that has very little to do with previous YGO installments, and the current Pokemon relies on a mostly different dub cast from the 4kids Pokemon.

While Pokemon is under a different dub studio, other than a different cast and more use of the original background music, I don't see much of a difference between the PUSA and 4Kids dub of Pokemon. Besides that, while they haven't aired any of the 4Kids seasons for awhile, they have aired some of the earlier movies in recent years. I believe that they aired the first two movies and the Dexoys movie a couple of months before the summer schedule started up.

I agree that 5D's is a different series from the past Yu-Gi-Oh! series. However, the main difference I see is that it's more plot-driven, as Dekacloud already mentioned, than the past two series. I also think that 5D's has done, from what I've seen, a better job of using the cast of characters and giving them better focused attention than the majority of the casts in both Duel Monsters and GX.

[gtadbzman]

CN doesn't hate anime. We just say that because they don't show hardcore action anime for people our age anymore. If they would show Naruto, Dragon Ball, One Peice, etc. we wouldn't be complaining. Maybe someday CN will get one of these shows but we'll just have to wait.

[The Overlord]

CN doesn't hate anime. We just say that because they don't show hardcore action anime for people our age anymore. If they would show Naruto, Dragon Ball, One Peice, etc. we wouldn't be complaining. Maybe someday CN will get one of these shows but we'll just have to wait.

Well the problem is Cartoon Network doesn't care if anime fans complain or not.

I would agree that CN doesn't hate anime, I think the reason why Cartoon Network doesn't is because they don't get along with Viz or Funi.

Cartoon Network shows a few PG rated cartoons, so I don't think content is the problem, its the break down of the business relationships between Viz, Funi and the Cartoon Network.

[Kuromi_Star]

Well the problem is Cartoon Network doesn't care if anime fans complain or not.

I would agree that CN doesn't hate anime, I think the reason why Cartoon Network doesn't is because they don't get along with Viz or Funi.

Cartoon Network shows a few PG rated cartoons, so I don't think content is the problem, its the break down of the business relationships between Viz, Funi and the Cartoon Network.
No I highly doubt CN has a bad relationship with Funimation let alone Viz. They might be a little upset with the way their properties were treated at some point but they know that Scifi and CN are pretty much theironly chances at getting their shows on TV at all. Nobody really gets the Funimation channel and anyting Viz plays online isn't going to have the same presence as it would on a major televsion channel for the demographic.

I do believe that better choices of the propeties that get aired and where they go could be made though.

[The Overlord]

No I highly doubt CN has a bad relationship with Funimation let alone Viz. They might be a little upset with the way their properties were treated at some point but they know that Scifi and CN are pretty much theironly chances at getting their shows on TV at all. Nobody really gets the Funimation channel and anyting Viz plays online isn't going to have the same presence as it would on a major televsion channel for the demographic.

I do believe that better choices of the propeties that get aired and where they go could be made though.

That's not I meant, I meant CN is unhappy with Viz and Funi because they won't share in the profits from the merch. Thus Cartoon Network will choose not air thier shows unless they get more favorable deals or they will choose to go to other third parties for shows.

[gtadbzman]

If I were Viz or FUNI, I would give CN say 15% of the merchandise that show makes. It would actually be to Viz and FUNI's advantage because they could get that show more exposure.

[TigerEye]

If I were Viz or FUNI, I would give CN say 15% of the merchandise that show makes. It would actually be to Viz and FUNI's advantage because they could get that show more exposure.

I have always gone by the saying of "Out of sight, out of mind." and the more and more anime is absent from American television, the less and less people who are not hardcore fans will care.

I will miss the days when anime was often aired on American television, but I can evolve with the times too and get into whatever it is these networks decide is the next big thing, but only as long as it's good. I am not some goat however that will follow the next big thing and like it just because it's the next big thing. For example I don't care much for Johnny Test or Total Drama Whatever, they are not really my taste and they are imports if I can recall correctly, so I am not too willing to adapt with the times just because a network says so, but I don't mind trying something new.

Right now would be the best time to bring anime back full-time because it isn't too removed from peoples memories and still could gain good ratings if these networks promoted the shows properly. I wouldn't create an all-anime block or anything like that, but adding a show or two to the line up's they currently have wouldn't be a bad thing.

[Mickialla]

It does matter though, CN wants its fingers in all the pies and likely won't air a show unless it gets piece of all the action.

Why would they want to air show that would create merch profits for another company, instead of a show that would create merch profits for them?

But...Cartoon Network isn't in competition with Funi. They share the profits on DBZ merch, don't they? That being said, Cartoon Network is, in retrospect, a client of Funi. They don't compete with each other for money. So I don't think Cartoon Network should care at all if DBZ merch profits make more money for Funi than they do for Cartoon Network. The fact that they make money for them period should urge them to keep interest in the franchise. As I said already, DBZ hasn't aired in what, 2 years. Yet the merchandise (games, action figures, etc) still sell well. Now imagine how much more interest kids would have in the merchandise if the show was actually airing. They might get less profit than Funi does for the merchandise, but they'll get more profit if the show is airing because the overall revenue will be greater, and therefore more will go into their pockets. And besides, I think it's ridiculous that Cartoon Network expects to have all the profits from merchandise. It's an ambition that'll get them no money becaues no company is going to want to make a deal with them.

Well the problem is Cartoon Network doesn't care if anime fans complain or not.

I would agree that CN doesn't hate anime, I think the reason why Cartoon Network doesn't is because they don't get along with Viz or Funi.

Cartoon Network shows a few PG rated cartoons, so I don't think content is the problem, its the break down of the business relationships between Viz, Funi and the Cartoon Network.

Yea, but a lot of anime fans are in the 9-14 demographic. It's clear Cartoon Network is starting to care more and more about that. Anime has always done well with that audience, whether it be the rare huge successes like DBZ (which was really the only mega hit with the teens), or the abundant moderate successes a la Gundam, Tenchi, Rurouni Kenshin, Yu Yu Hakusho, Naruto, etc. Not all anime that Cartoon Network has aired became DBZ hits, but a lot of them became moderate hits. And when you put a lot of moderate hits together, the success is basically equal to the success of one megahit. Plus, anime has been proven successful. Live-action reality shows haven't.

[chdr]

Plus, anime has been proven successful. Live-action reality shows haven't.They haven't been proven successful because they haven't been proven at all. The same could have been said with DBZ in the late 90's.

[Mickialla]

They haven't been proven successful because they haven't been proven at all. The same could have been said with DBZ in the late 90's.

Didn't DBZ consistently get into the Top 10 charts? If that's not proven success, what is?

[chdr]

Didn't DBZ consistently get into the Top 10 charts? If that's not proven success, what is?Immediately, in 1998? DBZ started becoming big around the early-00's, I believe.

[J!!!]

Immediately, in 1998? DBZ started becoming big around the early-00's, I believe.
Yeah, that sound about right.

Up until that time all tries to release the DB series in the US failed. But Funi knew what would help make the series popular.....showing the series out of order...and it worked.

[Mickialla]

Immediately, in 1998? DBZ started becoming big around the early-00's, I believe.

It's irrelevant when it became popular IMO. The fact is that when it became popular, the popularity hasn't decreased drastically since. DBZ is still a part of mainstream pop culture and people still recognize it. It's more popular than it was 10 years ago when it was first coming to the states.

[J!!!]

It's irrelevant when it became popular IMO. The fact is that when it became popular, the popularity hasn't decreased drastically since. DBZ is still a part of mainstream pop culture and people still recognize it. It's more popular than it was 10 years ago when it was first coming to the states.
So if we brought DBZ back on CN, with a daily slot...you think the ratings would break the 11's (because it used to make 10's)? Please..explain.

[gtadbzman]

The reason why DBZ is still insanely popular is because it has a cult following. That's why shows, say like Beavis & Butthead are so popular because they have a cult that follows them, not to mention the impact these shows had. The reason DBZ wouldn't do as well on CN is because that cult is out of CN's demo. DBZ simply ran its course. If CN started to show DBK and advertised it I sure the ratings would be just as high as Yu-Gi-Oh or Pokemon's.

[Mickialla]

So if we brought DBZ back on CN, with a daily slot...you think the ratings would break the 11's (because it used to make 10's)? Please..explain.

No. I'm not saying that if Cartoon Network brought DBZ back it'd get better ratings than it did at its peak. I'm not talking about ratings at all. I'm talking about merchandising profit. It's clear that Cartoon Network doesn't want to pick up any anime unless they get merchandise profit, which is why they want toyetic anime that have heavy merchandise like Pokemon and Yugioh. And even then, Cartoon Network wants a good deal of profit from the merchandising, which is supposedly the dispute between Cartoon Network and companies like Viz and Funimation. If DBZ sells good now, it'll sell better when it's actually in the public eye. More revenue made overall, more profit for Cartoon Network.

[The Overlord]

No. I'm not saying that if Cartoon Network brought DBZ back it'd get better ratings than it did at its peak. I'm not talking about ratings at all. I'm talking about merchandising profit. It's clear that Cartoon Network doesn't want to pick up any anime unless they get merchandise profit, which is why they want toyetic anime that have heavy merchandise like Pokemon and Yugioh. And even then, Cartoon Network wants a good deal of profit from the merchandising, which is supposedly the dispute between Cartoon Network and companies like Viz and Funimation. If DBZ sells good now, it'll sell better when it's actually in the public eye. More revenue made overall, more profit for Cartoon Network.

But you know for sure that CN has the merch rights for DBZ, is there proof of that?

[Raidon Makoto]

But you know for sure that CN has the merch rights for DBZ, is there proof of that?
According to Jeff, if it had the "As seen on Toonami/CN" logo on it, CN had merch rights. And I believe DBZ stuff was plastered with those.

[KPTitan]

According to Jeff, if it had the "As seen on Toonami/CN" logo on it, CN had merch rights. And I believe DBZ stuff was plastered with those.

Yeah, I think so.....'cause I remember seeing a Majin Buu figure in Kmart back when the Buu Saga was airing, and it had the CN thingy on the package.

[The Overlord]

According to Jeff, if it had the "As seen on Toonami/CN" logo on it, CN had merch rights. And I believe DBZ stuff was plastered with those.

Ok, but as noted above, DBZ was a cult hit and might be more popular with people outside of the demos CN is trying to court then within. Just because it was merch hit with kids a generation ago, doesn't mean it will be now. I mean there is still TMNT merch out there, but do you think CN showing the old TMNT cartoon weill drive interest new interest amongst the kids?

CN not showing DBZ is does not count as proof that they hate anime, it will take stronger evidence then cN not airing a cartoon from a decade or so ago to convince me that CN just decided one day, that they hate anything from Japan.

Again if they hate everything from Japan, then why are they still airing anime like Pokemon and other4 stations like disney are not? You can't prove PUSA or 4kids.

The case you presented for this is weak and I don't think it makes, there lots of wholes that can only be plugged with vague and unprovable speculation. You haqve to give me more to proof.

[Raidon Makoto]

Ok, but as noted above, DBZ was a cult hit and might be more popular with people outside of the demos CN is trying to court then within. Just because it was merch hit with kids a generation ago, doesn't mean it will be now. I mean there is still TMNT merch out there, but do you think CN showing the old TMNT cartoon weill drive interest new interest amongst the kids?

CN not showing DBZ is does not count as proof that they hate anime, it will take stronger evidence then cN not airing a cartoon from a decade or so ago to convince me that CN just decided one day, that they hate anything from Japan.
Uh, no. My argument was that giving up the license to a show that's still making money even though you do nothing with it and you paid for the show years ago is a stupid business decision. If they were concerned about merch, they would have kept DBZ's license. And last I checked, no one gives up free money, so why, other than the fact that Toon doesn't like anime, would they give up free money?

[Mickialla]

Ok, but as noted above, DBZ was a cult hit and might be more popular with people outside of the demos CN is trying to court then within. Just because it was merch hit with kids a generation ago, doesn't mean it will be now. I mean there is still TMNT merch out there, but do you think CN showing the old TMNT cartoon weill drive interest new interest amongst the kids?

CN not showing DBZ is does not count as proof that they hate anime, it will take stronger evidence then cN not airing a cartoon from a decade or so ago to convince me that CN just decided one day, that they hate anything from Japan.

Again if they hate everything from Japan, then why are they still airing anime like Pokemon and other4 stations like disney are not? You can't prove PUSA or 4kids.

The case you presented for this is weak and I don't think it makes, there lots of wholes that can only be plugged with vague and unprovable speculation. You haqve to give me more to proof.

I don't believe Cartoon Network hates anime one bit. So we can agree on that.

DBZ isn't "a merch hit with kids a generation ago". Again, DBZ merchandise still sells well without it it being in the public eye. Because DBZ was so popular, kids still remember it, and therefore still have interest in the merchandise. Merchandise doesn't sell as well as it did when DBZ was airing, but it does still sell well. Which is why I'm saying, once more, that if DBZ merchandise sells well without DBZ even airing, it will sell even better when DBZ is airing. Aside from that, DBZ probably would do well with the 9-14 audience that Cartoon Network wants so badly now. I have no proof (which you'll probably ask for) of that up front, but I'm sure if you dig deep enough you'll find ratings that prove that true.

[The Overlord]

Uh, no. My argument was that giving up the license to a show that's still making money even though you do nothing with it and you paid for the show years ago is a stupid business decision. If they were concerned about merch, they would have kept DBZ's license. And last I checked, no one gives up free money, so why, other than the fact that Toon doesn't like anime, would they give up free money?

Or perhaps CN thinks airing a new show will move more merch to their target demo then some show from a decade ago?

Answer me this DBZ merch is such a sure thing, why hasn't Nick or Disney gotten the rights and started airing it on one of their channel? If its such a sure thing, why aren't there bidding wars for it?

This theory is deeply flawed for a simple reason, CN, not just AS, CN airs more then all Nick and Disney channels put together. Just because you don't like Poklemon, Yu-Gi-OH or Bakugan, doesn't cahnge the fact they are anime. If thery air anime at all, they don't hate anime, that's simple logic.

[Raidon Makoto]

Or perhaps CN thinks airing a new show will move more merch to their target demo then some show from a decade ago?

Answer me this DBZ merch is such a sure thing, why hasn't Nick or Disney gotten the rights and started airing it on one of their channel? If its such a sure thing, why aren't there bidding wars for it?

This theory is deeply flawed for a simple reason, CN, not just AS, CN airs more then all Nick and Disney channels put together. Just because you don't like Poklemon, Yu-Gi-OH or Bakugan, doesn't cahnge the fact they are anime. If thery air anime at all, they don't hate anime, that's simple logic.
You don't understand what I'm saying.

Toon has had the rights to DBZ for years and years. According to Jeff Harris, they've had merch rights to it too. Toon then gave up the license to DBZ. DBZ still moves merch. What was the point of giving up a license to something that is still generating revenue despite the fact that they never play it? That's like saying No to free money, which is why I don't think the hatred of anime stems from Merch as much as it does trying to rebuild the network from the ground up.

[The Overlord]

You don't understand what I'm saying.

Toon has had the rights to DBZ for years and years. According to Jeff Harris, they've had merch rights to it too. Toon then gave up the license to DBZ. DBZ still moves merch. What was the point of giving up a license to something that is still generating revenue despite the fact that they never play it? That's like saying No to free money, which is why I don't think the hatred of anime stems from Merch as much as it does trying to rebuild the network from the ground up.

And you aren't addressing my point, why if CN hates anime, do they air anime at all? That's a major hole in theory and why I see no value in it and have no respect for it.

Also so what, it won't sell as well it did in the past and there is guarantee it will sell with CN's target demo, I mean who buys this stuff, is it the target demo who buys this stuff or otakus?

And here's another thing you have not addressed, if the emrch rights for DBZ are up in the air and you say it would instant mech sucess with the tareget demo, then why aren't Nick or Disney grabbing the rights to the show then?

[gtadbzman]

First of all if CN or any other channel did get DBZ they couldn't advertise it as new episodes so why bother? Getting an old show just for merchandise is plain ignorant. CN doesn't hate anime but they do want their fair share of the pie which is understandable. Now maybe if CN got say DBK it would be different because it's new.

[chdr]

You don't understand what I'm saying.

Toon has had the rights to DBZ for years and years. According to Jeff Harris, they've had merch rights to it too. Toon then gave up the license to DBZ. DBZ still moves merch. What was the point of giving up a license to something that is still generating revenue despite the fact that they never play it? That's like saying No to free money, which is why I don't think the hatred of anime stems from Merch as much as it does trying to rebuild the network from the ground up.
Is DBZ even popular anymore? Aside from the superfans who grew up with the series and bought the remastered DVDs and are now probably out of CN's target demographic, DBZ is never mentioned anymore. The new "it" shonen was Naruto and now possibly Bleach. DBZ is out of the public eye, and even if the new movie got people to think about it again, it wasn't in a positive light.

If DBZ was still doing well for CN, why would they replace it with Samurai Jack of all things?

[gtadbzman]

If DBZ was still doing well for CN, why would they replace it with Samurai Jack of all things?This is just a theory but I wouldn't be suprised if DBZ rights expired for CN. I mean it was on for 10 years and it wasn't a CN original show.

[Raidon Makoto]

And you aren't addressing my point, why if CN hates anime, do they air anime at all? That's a major hole in theory and why I see no value in it and have no respect for it.
Like I said. They get paid to air Pokemon and YGO and they make money off of Bakugan. Concerning [as], since they can keep ratings well, while Toon could tell [as] to take down all the anime, they've probably decided its better for business to give Williams Street free reign. That, and I wouldn't be surprised if Mike Lazzo would talk to Phil Kent if Toon asked them to remove their anime.

And here's another thing you have not addressed, if the emrch rights for DBZ are up in the air and you say it would instant mech sucess with the tareget demo, then why aren't Nick or Disney grabbing the rights to the show then?Again, not the point. DBZ sells, yes, but not a lot. But it still sells. Keeping that license was essentially free money, albeit only a little bit. Its like someone giving you five dollars a day or something like that. While its small, its still free.

@gtadbzman: CN renewed the rights. Someone mapped out when the rights were supposed to expire (which was summer of this year), but its on the Toonami forum, so I can't get it for you.

[gtadbzman]

Just pointing this out but DBZ is the top anime property this year in America so I'm suprised that CN let it go. This is all to confusing.

[The Overlord]

Like I said. They get paid to air Pokemon and YGO and they make money off of Bakugan. Concerning [as], since they can keep ratings well, while Toon could tell [as] to take down all the anime, they've probably decided its better for business to give Williams Street free reign. That, and I wouldn't be surprised if Mike Lazzo would talk to Phil Kent if Toon asked them to remove their anime.

One, can you prove PUSA or 4Kids pay Cartoon Network to air their shows? If you can't prove it, why should I believe it?

Two the fact that CN airs Bakugan because they get the merch rights proves my point.

This whole xenophia theory is based on speculation that can't be proven, so I deem it as without merit or value, unless you can present better evidence.



Again, not the point. DBZ sells, yes, but not a lot. But it still sells. Keeping that license was essentially free money, albeit only a little bit. Its like someone giving you five dollars a day or something like that. While its small, its still free.

Its not free, they have air it in place of a new school that is far more likely to generate merch sells from their intended demo and more likely to get better ratings. You haven't answered my question, who buys the DBZ merch, the kids in CN's demo or otakus?

Nick has the merch rights to Invader Zim and other such old programs on thier main network, because they have moved on to other shows.

None of the 3 big big cable kids networks air old shows on their main networks, very often, its not something is that is done.

[Raidon Makoto]

One, can you prove PUSA or 4Kids pay Cartoon Network to air their shows? If you can't prove it, why should I believe it?
Prove to me that CN cares about merch at all. Neither of us can prove our points.

Two the fact that CN airs Bakugan because they get the merch rights proves my point.
That's another one of those 'Throwing away free money' sort of things.

Its not free, they have air it in place of a new school that is far more likely to generate merch sells from their intended demo and more likely to get better ratings. You haven't answered my question, who buys the DBZ merch, the kids in CN's demo or otakus?
Answer: Who cares? Free money is free money. You don't understand what I'm saying, Overlord. I'm saying that it would be a stupid business decision to give up the license to a show that is still generating revenue for them, despite the fact they never air it. It is essentially free money they gave up; the source of the revenue doesn't matter.

Nick has the merch rights to Invader Zim and other such old programs on thier main network, because they have moved on to other shows.
And if Nick decided to drop the rights to Invader Zim, that would be a similar stupid business decision, because it continues to generate revenue despite the fact they never air it.

[Silverstar]

First of all if CN or any other channel did get DBZ they couldn't advertise it as new episodes so why bother? Getting an old show just for merchandise is plain ignorant. CN doesn't hate anime but they do want their fair share of the pie which is understandable. Now maybe if CN got say DBK it would be different because it's new.

Re-releasing a 10-year-old series in widescreen high-definition and omitting the filler episodes does not make said series "new". Different, maybe, but not new. Advertising Dragon Ball Kai as a new series would be just as much false advertising as advertising DBZ Uncut as a new series. It's still DBZ, no matter how you slice it.

[gtadbzman]

Re-releasing a 10-year-old series in widescreen high-definition and omitting the filler episodes does not make said series "new". Different, maybe, but not new. Advertising Dragon Ball Kai as a new series would be just as much false advertising as advertising DBZ Uncut as a new series. It's still DBZ, no matter how you slice it.Yes I realize technically it's not "new" but they could advertise it as so. Even if it would technically be "false" they could still advertise it as new episodes. Hell, Toei advertised it as a new series so why wouldn't any other company. Anyway back on topic.

[The Overlord]

Prove to me that CN cares about merch at all. Neither of us can prove our points..

Ok, CN still airs anime, therefore they don''t hate all anime, the anime being shown is merch driven and we know that they have merch rights to one of the anime they air and they went out of the way to get the merch rights for TDI.

Circumstanicial evidence seems to point to CN caring about the merch, more then anything else.


That's another one of those 'Throwing away free money' sort of things. ...

How are they throwing away money with Bakugan? You are ignoring my point, if they are showing some anime for merch reasons, doesn't that prove my theoery correct?


Answer: Who cares? Free money is free money. You don't understand what I'm saying, Overlord. I'm saying that it would be a stupid business decision to give up the license to a show that is still generating revenue for them, despite the fact they never air it. It is essentially free money they gave up; the source of the revenue doesn't matter...

Except CN doesn't care about otakus, they want to get kids to buy their stuff, otakus will buy that stuff regardless, they want get the kids to buy things, they don't care if otakus are buying things. Showing cartoons that appeal to today's generation of kids will earn them more ratings and merch money, then airing some showm from a decade ago.

Its not CN doesn't care about anime, its that CN cares more about shows that appeal to today's kids, rather shows from a decade ago, that would only appeal to otakus.


And if Nick decided to drop the rights to Invader Zim, that would be a similar stupid business decision, because it continues to generate revenue despite the fact they never air it.

Its easier to maintain the rights to a show you created though vs. a show you picked up from a third party.

[Raidon Makoto]

Circumstanicial evidence seems to point to CN caring about the merch, more then anything else.
Except, I've told you that DBZ merch still sells and they still make a profit on it, and yet they don't care, they got rid of it anyways.

How are they throwing away money with Bakugan? You are ignoring my point, if they are showing some anime for merch reasons, doesn't that prove my theoery correct?
No, you are ignoring my point. I said that if they gave up Bakugan, that would be like throwing away free money.

Except CN doesn't care about otakus, they want to get kids to buy their stuff, otakus will buy that stuff regardless, they want get the kids to buy things, they don't care if otakus are buying things. Showing cartoons that appeal to today's generation of kids will earn them more ratings and merch money, then airing some showm from a decade ago.
Okay, let's go back to my example of a guy giving you five dollars every day. Does it matter if its a guy or a girl? No, you're getting five dollars every day, so who cares. Same thing, who gives a crap who buys the merch. Toon is making money and is doing nothing to encourage it. That is essentially free money. It would be stupid to get rid of this deal, but they did.

I am getting the impression that either you don't get my argument or that I'm not explaining it well enough. Could you please tell me what you don't understand/can't understand so we don't have to keep going back and forth with me continuing to restate my argument?

Its not CN doesn't care about anime, its that CN cares more about shows that appeal to today's kids, rather shows from a decade ago, that would only appeal to otakus.
I'm not saying they should air it. I'm saying they still have the deal from ten years ago. They were making money on it, despite not playing the series. What was the point in giving it up?

Its easier to maintain the rights to a show you created though vs. a show you picked up from a third party.
Its also easier to maintain rights to a show if you made a contract ten years ago that says you still have it for another year. CN renewed the DBZ license 2007ish and had it until March of this year, I think, but they gave up the license last fall when they canceled Toonami, despite the fact they were still making money on it.

[The Overlord]

Except, I've told you that DBZ merch still sells and they still make a profit on it, and yet they don't care, they got rid of it anyways..

Does it sell with the target demo though? Media Corporations often get rid of elemets that appeal people outside their target demo.


No, you are ignoring my point. I said that if they gave up Bakugan, that would be like throwing away free money...

But you are ignoring my point, if they hate all anime why do they air Bakugan at all? Its a contradiction of logic.


Okay, let's go back to my example of a guy giving you five dollars every day. Does it matter if its a guy or a girl? No, you're getting five dollars every day, so who cares. Same thing, who gives a crap who buys the merch. Toon is making money and is doing nothing to encourage it. That is essentially free money. It would be stupid to get rid of this deal, but they did....

Excpet that's not how the entertainment world works, media corporations often get rid of older elements to appeal to their core demo.

Once someone who is on MTV reaches a certain age, MTV wil fire that person, because they don't want to show people they feel appeal to those outside of their target demo.

That's how the entertainment industry works, companies pick a demo and stick with it, no matter what. That's why CN doesn't care about shows that appeal to otakus, more the anyone else.


I am getting the impression that either you don't get my argument or that I'm not explaining it well enough. Could you please tell me what you don't understand/can't understand so we don't have to keep going back and forth with me continuing to restate my argument?

I'm just not buying that cN gave the rights to one show from ten years, as evidence that they now hate all aime. That just seems like a leap of logic to me.


I'm not saying they should air it. I'm saying they still have the deal from ten years ago. They were making money on it, despite not playing the series. What was the point in giving it up?

But that is absolute evidence that CN hates all anime now, because they gave up the rights to a show from ten years ago, despite the fact they air more anime then their competitors.

[/QUOTE]
Its also easier to maintain rights to a show if you made a contract ten years ago that says you still have it for another year. CN renewed the DBZ license 2007ish and had it until March of this year, I think, but they gave up the license last fall when they canceled Toonami, despite the fact they were still making money on it.[/QUOTE]

Maybe they didn't want to spend money on the rights from a show that aired ten years ago?

[mkalv]

[QUOTE=



But you are ignoring my point, if they hate all anime why do they air Bakugan at all? Its a contradiction of logic.



[/QUOTE]

Maybe CN is just making an exception because of money. I mean, if you hated dogs, but someone offered you 100 bucks to baby-sit one, wouldn't you do it anyway?

[Raidon Makoto]

Does it sell with the target demo though? Media Corporations often get rid of elemets that appeal people outside their target demo.
Doesn't matter. Free money is free money.

But you are ignoring my point, if they hate all anime why do they air Bakugan at all? Its a contradiction of logic.
Because they're making craptons of money on it. They'd be giving away way too much free money.

Excpet that's not how the entertainment world works, media corporations often get rid of older elements to appeal to their core demo.

Once someone who is on MTV reaches a certain age, MTV wil fire that person, because they don't want to show people they feel appeal to those outside of their target demo.

That's how the entertainment industry works, companies pick a demo and stick with it, no matter what. That's why CN doesn't care about shows that appeal to otakus, more the anyone else.
Doesn't matter. Free money is free money.

I'm just not buying that cN gave the rights to one show from ten years, as evidence that they now hate all aime. That just seems like a leap of logic to me.
This isn't my argument for Toon hates anime. This is my debunking your argument concerning merch.

But that is absolute evidence that CN hates all anime now, because they gave up the rights to a show from ten years ago, despite the fact they air more anime then their competitors.
...

They gave up the rights to a show that they still had for six more months that was still giving them free money merch-wise, despite the fact that they weren't airing it at all and probably were never going to air it again.

Furthermore, the anime aired on [as] doesn't count, as well as the anime that they're getting bribed to play. Bakugan is the only show that doesn't fit into those circumstances, but it has its own, that being it sells lots of toys. I guarantee you, once the Bakugan fad dies down, Toon will drop it quick.

Maybe they didn't want to spend money on the rights from a show that aired ten years ago?
They already spent the money (well, Samples did) to have the show until 2009. You don't have to renew a license before its up. They voluntarily chose to drop it, despite the fact that they paid for another half a year of the show.

[Jeff Harris]

*eats nachos*

*enjoying the fireworks between The Overlord and rust*

*wondering if he should interject himself into this firefight.*

Nah, I've done enough, and besides, confrontation and spirited debate is always a good thing. Carry on, gents.

[macattack]

*eats nachos*

*enjoying the fireworks between The Overlord and rust*

*wondering if he should interject himself into this firefight.*

Nah, I've done enough, and besides, confrontation and spirited debate is always a good thing. Carry on, gents.

I have the distinct feeling I've just been subtly zinged.

[soundmonkey44]

Place your Bets Now!

Rust 4-1
Overlord 5-1

Its Anybodys Debate! Both Condinders Are Top Notch!


BOT: This Argument Could Go one For Eons! Oh well. I still Say What IVe always said, be patient, & eventually will see some non toyetic anime return to the network, even if its not for another 2-5 years.:sweat:

[The Overlord]

Doesn't matter. Free money is free money..

Then why doesn't Carson Daly work for MTV anymore?


Because they're making craptons of money on it. They'd be giving away way too much free money...

Doesn't that prove my point?


Doesn't matter. Free money is free money...

Again, then why doesn't Carson Daly work for MTV anymore?


This isn't my argument for Toon hates anime. This is my debunking your argument concerning merch....

Then why are they airing Bakugan then, if not for the merch?


...

They gave up the rights to a show that they still had for six more months that was still giving them free money merch-wise, despite the fact that they weren't airing it at all and probably were never going to air it again..

So what? For all we know there could have million back room reason they decided not renew those rights, there is no proof it was because they hate anime, I want better proof before I even consider taking that seriously.


Furthermore, the anime aired on [as] doesn't count, as well as the anime that they're getting bribed to play. Bakugan is the only show that doesn't fit into those circumstances, but it has its own, that being it sells lots of toys. I guarantee you, once the Bakugan fad dies down, Toon will drop it quick.

What about Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon, why they airing that? The fact they air anime at all proves they don't hate anime, it contradicts your theory.

And if you say, 4Kids and PUSA paided to air it, I want proof or I consdier that arguement irreelvant.


They already spent the money (well, Samples did) to have the show until 2009. You don't have to renew a license before its up. They voluntarily chose to drop it, despite the fact that they paid for another half a year of the show.

Its one show they didn't bother with the rights anymore, it doesn't prove a wider trend. Compare that to the 3 merc driven animes CN still airs and it seems to me the circumstanical evidence leans one way, not the other.

[warnerbroman]

*eats nachos*

*enjoying the fireworks between The Overlord and rust*

*wondering if he should interject himself into this firefight.*

Nah, I've done enough, and besides, confrontation and spirited debate is always a good thing. Carry on, gents.
* watches Jeff Harris eat nachos*

*enjoying the fireworks between The Overlord and rust*

*wondering if he should change the subject.*

have there been any Naruto toy ads recently?

[Raidon Makoto]

Then why doesn't Carson Daly work for MTV anymore?
You're going to have to explain the significance of Carson Daly and MTV to me, because I don't know how that has any bearing on the conversation whatsoever.

Doesn't that prove my point?It proves everything has a price, and Toon's hatred of anime's is about as much as Bakugan is making.

So what? For all we know there could have million back room reason they decided not renew those rights, there is no proof it was because they hate anime, I want better proof before I even consider taking that seriously.Toon re-licensed Dragonball Z in 2007 for two years. That means, for the money they paid in 2007, they could air it as much as they wanted until 2009. Since they re-licensed it, they're still getting a cut of the merch, like they did when they first got DBZ. However, in Fall of 2008 Toon dropped the rights. That means that they gave DBZ back to FUNi, as well as the merchandising rights, and said "Here, we don't want it anymore, despite the fact that we paid for another six months of this. Keep your merch rights too." Toon wasn't going to relicense it; they already had the license. They gave up the license, and the merch rights which were giving them free money.

What about Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon, why they airing that? The fact they air anime at all proves they don't hate anime, it contradicts your theory.

And if you say, 4Kids and PUSA paided to air it, I want proof or I consdier that arguement irreelvant.Because they're getting paid to air it. Your argument has just about as much proof as mine (which is none :P).


Its one show they didn't bother with the rights anymore, it doesn't prove a wider trend. Compare that to the 3 merc driven animes CN still airs and it seems to me the circumstanical evidence leans one way, not the other.It doesn't matter, free money is free money. When you have merch rights, all you do is get a check every few months for stuff that's been sold. There's no 'not bothering.' They were doing absolutely nothing and getting paid for it. The only reason, whatsoever, that they'd give this deal up before it expires is because they don't like anime.

I'm putting this out there right now, because you still seem to not understand what I am saying. Tell me what you do not understand or that I have not said clear enough so I can help you understand my argument or I refuse to continue this.

[mkalv]

*yawns*
*checks watch*
*falls asleep*

To be honest, this is getting old. I mean, what if the mods come? Then you'll be busted!:evil:

[Light Lucario]

*yawns*
*checks watch*
*falls asleep*

To be honest, this is getting old. I mean, what if the mods come? Then you'll be busted!:evil:

There is truth in that statement.

Alright, rust and Overlord, please stop your argument now. It's just going around in circles since neither one of you can really have actual proof to support your claims. Both of your arguments are simply opposite theories based on certain events. Theories like that can't really have solid proof, at least not in this case.

Besides that, this debate is just throwing the entire thread off-topic. If this argument continues or picks up again later on in the thread, infractions will be given out and/or this thread could be closed down. This is my hopefully friendly warning to everyone. Please keep this warning in mind when you continue posting in this thread. Thank you.

As for the actual topic to this thread:

have there been any Naruto toy ads recently?

I haven't seen any commercials for the toys in ages, but I did see a promo for a new set for the trading card game a couple of months ago. It also was promoting where you could legally watch Naruto episodes online.

[macattack]

Round and round they go, where they stop, nobody knows . . .

Okay, to get the subject off "free money" and whatnot, I'm going back to my earlier statement about CN making their own "American anime".

The problems with airing anime in the first place is the edginess. Back in the day when CN had to edit every anime themselves, it cost them thousands of dollars to repaint, touch up, and have VAs record censored lines by the conclusion of the various series. The only series where this didn't matter was DBZ, which FUNimation did their own editing. Eventually, that practice faded away with Gundam SEED being the final show edited by Cartoon Network themselves (although it was really Williams Street who did it all). By 2005 the companies were responsible for their own editing until Code Geass got some WS edits in 2008/09 to blur nudity.

The Japanese believe in edgier material being exposed to children, something we haven't caught up to yet.

And, believe it or not, it isn't hard to make a show as edgy as a Japanese program without the violence or sensuality. An example would be Star Wars: Clone Wars, where people get killed off all the damn time, just not in gory ways. Total Drama Action, on the other hand, covers the sensuality part quite fine. Now all Cartoon Network has to do is cover both aisles with just enough restraint to prevent rage from the parental watchdogs. And considering that the parental watchdogs haven't exactly been seething over TDA and Clone Wars that is something quite doable indeed.

To ensure legitimacy, hire a Japanese studio to handle animation production. The Japanese are still very willing to do work-for-hire. X-Men Evolution's impressive animation was handled by a Japanese studio, for instance, and Madhouse animated the Hulk Vs. features. Tokyo Movie Shinsha is doing Bakugan: New Vestroia by commission. Pay Pierrot, Madhouse, Sunrise, or TMS enough money and they'll do the animation for you. More expensive than Korea or China, sure, but it sure lends credibility and is cheaper than animating at home or in Europe. The same goes for hiring a Japanese composer and a small group of musicians to handle the BGM.

And, believe it or not, it is actually to Cartoon Network's advantage that WMG is no longer under the Time Warner umbrella. This means that the theme songs for the "American anime" go to the highest bidder, which means more cash in to either fund the show or just place in the pocket. Universal Music Group? Sony Music Entertainment? WMG? EMI? Or maybe independant labels like Victory or Fueled by Ramen?

Those who cough up the most cash get their artists spun in 90-second teasers. And considering how Cartoon Network plays reruns these days, that is a very good deal. That means the artist will have his/her/their 90-second teaser of a song blasted about 10 times a week, making it very difficult to avoid exposure to the artist's song. Much more practical than being placed in the back of the credits of some movie when everyone's left the theater.

Voice-acting doesn't have to break the bank either. Bang! Zoom!, NYAV Post, Ocean Westwood, and FUNimation's recording studio are all accomplished and acclaimed studios with superb voice actors and ADR people. You can pay for a competent NY/LA dub directed by Michael Sinterniklaas and Marc Thompson from NYAV Post or a great LA union dub directed by Mary Elizabeth McGlynn at Studiopolis for far less money than it would take to hire Andrea Romano or Susan Blu at some expensive Hollywood studio.

It is doable, it is affordable, and Cartoon Network controls everything and earns everything.

I made up something in about an hour earlier today to use as an example. Please note this isn't an actual proposal, and it is a rushjob I did on the fly.

Destiny's Way


One year ago, you woke up on a lakebed at the edge of a lonely Minnesota village, with a single bullet in your back. All you had, besides the clothes on your back, was a sheet of paper with your name on it. Along with an odd tattoo of some symbol no one can transcribe . . . but seems to vaguely resemble the wings of a butterfly.

You don't know how you got there, why you were shot, and what life you once lived. At first, you didn't mind not knowing. The woman who found you has been caring for you for the last year, after all, and you are adored by her young daughter. You attend high school, and, by all accounts, excel in your studies without seeming to give much effort. But in the back of your mind, the mysteries, and brief, incomprehensible flashes of what must have been your life, are tantalizing. You want to find out who you were.

You were better off not knowing.

A woman named Isadora Setalis appears in your life. Despite appearing not a day over eighteen, Isadora has lived for over a thousand years. She is a Chronos Knight: her job is to keep the flow of time going, without any "ripples" being made that can forever alter the past, present, and even the future. She warns she has come to save you from something, the same something responsible for the loss of all your memories.

A dark order arrives. Equipped with supernatural powers, they strike, hunting you instead of Isadora. And that's when you begin to discover who you were.

Your family, you real family, leads a dark order called the Genesis Project. Their goal since their fairly recent conception is none other than to fight a secret war against the Chronos Knights, who monitor the flow of time. The Project battles to convert the flow of time to an "ideal" setting, while the Knights fight to let time proceed along a natural current with as few modifications as possible. And Felix suddenly becomes the most desired VIP in this battle between the two contesting organizations. Because Felix is special: he is the one person born of the Project who can utilize the powers of the Chronos Knights to control the flow of time, which is symbolized by his tattoo.

But you are not sought after just for that. You are a monster who seeks to return the Earth back to a sea of primordial soup. The Project seeks to capture or even kill you because you are a failed experiment. The Knights protect you because you are a Knight, and thus can alter the flow of time. If the Earth is to be destroyed because of you, that is the destiny of the world.

As your memories return, and as you struggle to stay the kind-hearted young man you woke up as on that lakebed, you must decide what the natural progression of time must be. In Chicago, where the headquarters of the Project lie, you will decide what happens to the world, and to the flow of time.

You are Felix Delhomme.

You are a Chronos Knight.

You are a failed experiment.

You are the savior of what is to come.

You are the harbringer of the end of the world.

Now, let's see how you market this thing. How does this appeal to an audience? How can you keep this thing from going too far?

It appeals to a typical adolescent's feelings of wanting independance but also the feeling of having the adult world turning on you. It is an action series, certainly, but it also contains a romantic element as well. Nothing expands an audience faster than throwing in shipping possibilities in this era of the Internet. The middle America background makes the normal characters relatable. The fantastical nature of the Knight characters makes them mesmerizing, and makes them good action figure and video game characters. The shadowy organization has enough of a grey area that you THINK they're the bad guys but they might have better intentions than they initially seem to have. And the Knights certainly could be hiding their own sinister side as well.

It appeals to both female and male adolescents. The male adolescents will be attracted by the action and the fairly screwed-up protagonist, as well as some awesomeness by other male characters. The female adolescents will be attracted to the more emotional aspects of this story, the strong female characters who are nevertheless flawed in certain ways, and familal drama. It also contains enough entertainment for adults to get into as well, as, after all, adults make up a significant part of the cast and even the adult bad guys are given enough layers to not be stereotypical or moronic.

It is easy to censor. Guns, the instant death knell by censorship for many wannabe action cartoons, are useless because most of the characters can slow time to a crawl. A bullet will move at a snail's pace, and the character can simply grab the bullet out of the air and drop it to the ground, change its trajectory to the nearest wall, or to the ground. Even if guns are fired they are guaranteed to do zero damage because of this. All the combat is done by using blades, which are far easier to control in action sequences (see TMNT 2003 or Avatar: The Last Airbender for examples of how blades can be used in toned-down situations). A blade is more realistic than a laser, but they don't always have to connect with the flesh of a target. Plus the prospect of mano a mano combat lends intensity to action sequences.

Plus the series is marketable to merchandise. Action figures, certainly. Video games, definitely. Comic book/manga adaptations, T-shirts, OSTs, whatever? Sure. And Cartoon Network gets all the revenue from that. Every. Single. Penny.

It is a strategy that will work. It appeals to the 9-17 demographic which has been readily exposed to anime but fansubs are impossible because, after all, you get to air the property first in English.

Cartoon Network will get their money's worth by creating "American anime". All they need is good, marketable ideas, and they can pounce on the 9-17 demo easy.

BTW, in case you're wondering why it took me an hour to write that down, I wrote a character sheet too and ultimately decided not to post it because it distracted too much from my statement. I will PM or post the sheet upon request.

[chdr]

How is that any different from what they are doing now? Because it's being marketed as "anime" instead of the less exotic and therefore less interesting "cartoons"? If anything, it would cost more to produce because of music royalties and more expensive animation studios.

CN does produce their own "anime", some examples are "Chowder" and "Flapjack".

[macattack]

CN could do all of that that in-house if they wanted to.

The problem is, they don't seem to want to other than Ben 10: Alien Force/Generations. Flapjack and Chowder have been placed on the chopping block, which leaves Cartoon Network with exactly three series under production: The Secret Saturdays (also beset with rumors of cancellation), Adventure Time, and Alien Force/Generations. Yes, there is Generation Rex and Sym-bionic Titan but the latter doesn't seem to be incredibly marketable when it comes to toys, video games, etc.

Cartoon Network today would much rather have other studios do the work for them and then they take a significant cut of the deal. Here, Cartoon Network can work under the aegis of producing "original series" but they are using the studios work-for-hire-style. They don't need to produce in-house this way.

Also, exoticness creates appeal just on its own.

Music royalties are meaningless in this scenario if the music companies are paying YOU to play their music. That's how it works in Japan. Sony Music Japan, Geneon, Lantis, and avex trax pay the studios and TV Channels to get their artists spun on OPs/EDs and insert songs. The more money they pay, the better-exposed show the songs wind up on.

Paying a fee to get your single spun 8-10 times a week on a widely available TV station is worth a LOT in the long run in today's cramped, struggling music market. It is worth far more than any exposure MTV or VH1 could or would give you, that's for certain.

[chdr]

The problem is, they don't seem to want to other than Ben 10: Alien Force/Generations. Flapjack and Chowder have been placed on the chopping block, which leaves Cartoon Network with exactly three series under production: The Secret Saturdays (also beset with rumors of cancellation), Adventure Time, and Alien Force/Generations. Yes, there is Generation Rex and Sym-bionic Titan but the latter doesn't seem to be incredibly marketable when it comes to toys, video games, etc.

They could always make action figures/maquettes of the giant mechs. And CN will always be producing original cartoons. We'll probably see some more announced at the 2010 Upfronts.

Cartoon Network today would much rather have other studios do the work for them and then they take a significant cut of the deal. Here, Cartoon Network can work under the aegis of producing "original series" but they are using the studios work-for-hire-style. They don't need to produce in-house this way.

How is this any different from other times? Kids Next Door, EEnE, Courage, and TSS are examples of "work-for-hire" originals I can think of off the top of my head.

Also, exoticness creates appeal just on its own.

This is the early-00's. "Anime" is no longer a mysterious and exotic entity to outsiders. Most anime fans know what is and what is not anime, and would probably reject those shows as "copying anime", just like how people reject OEL manga as "copying manga".

Music royalties are meaningless in this scenario if the music companies are paying YOU to play their music. That's how it works in Japan. Sony Music Japan, Geneon, Lantis, and avex trax pay the studios and TV Channels to get their artists spun on OPs/EDs and insert songs. The more money they pay, the better-exposed show the songs wind up on.

Why would they pay CN to use THEIR songs for some show on the last-place kids network? The reason why anime has insert songs is because the production company OWNS the songs and therefore pays NOTHING to use them. The music industry doesn't need CN's help; they would rather just gain an extra buck through royalties. CN could easily produce their own themes and not pay any royalties AND be able to sell/air the show without any rights issues in the future.

[macattack]

They could always make action figures/maquettes of the giant mechs. And CN will always be producing original cartoons. We'll probably see some more announced at the 2010 Upfronts.

Point taken. But I remain unsure whether Cartoon Network's focus will be on creating more cartoons or producing/acquiring more live-action material.


How is this any different from other times? Kids Next Door, EEnE, Courage, and TSS are examples of "work-for-hire" originals I can think of off the top of my head.

Yes, those shows were produced overseas too. There is a value in "work-for-hire" which adds a beauty to a production and saves money without it looking like cheap Canadian flash. Note how smooth KND, EEnE, Courage, and TSS are all are. Those studios did a fantastic job. Do I need to add how amazing Avatar looks as well? And X-Men Evolution? Even Batman: TAS holds up quite well against modern cartoons. Even Spider-Man TAS and The Incredible Hulk TAS looked great until budget cuts got them both. There is something to be said about producing your stuff in Japan and Korea instead of doing it through Flash.

I'm not dissing Flash by any means but until somebody uses the program to its full potential other than the hideous-looking Superjail I will remain skeptical about it as a animation program.


This is the early-00's. "Anime" is no longer a mysterious and exotic entity to outsiders. Most anime fans know what is and what is not anime, and would probably reject those shows as "copying anime", just like how people reject OEL manga as "copying manga".


You're right. But not a lot of kids know the difference. The purpose of this isn't to appeal towards hardcore anime fans, it's to the casual anime fans at best and to the 9-17 demographic as a whole. A lot of anime fans rejected Avatar, and it got mega-popular anyway despite being criticized as "copying anime". It doesn't take a lot of thought to see that your point, while duly noted, doesn't have a lot of merit.

Why would they pay CN to use THEIR songs for some show on the last-place kids network? The reason why anime has insert songs is because the production company OWNS the songs and therefore pays NOTHING to use them. The music industry doesn't need CN's help; they would rather just gain an extra buck through royalties. CN could easily produce their own themes and not pay any royalties AND be able to sell/air the show without any rights issues in the future.

You have no idea how desperate the music industry is, do you? Music stations are going down in favor of Spanish-language and talk, or falling prey to the "playing what we want" stations which never play stuff later than 1991 or Top 40 which play the same artists that were around in 2000 and are taken up by talk mostly anyway. MTV and VH1 don't play music at watchable hours anymore and FUSE is too specialized to mean anything either. The music industry is desperately trying to find something new and experimental to save their products while they're busy dumping talent and employees as they try to stop bleeding cash. Cartoon Network could be quite the attractive alternative route if the cartoon has a lot of appeal. Remember, RERUNS. THE SONG GETS BLASTED MORE OFTEN THAN IT WOULD AT MTV OR VH1 COMBINED. There's merit here.

[macattack]

I got some numbers here . . .

In Japan, the average mid-level budget anime episode by an average studio (TMS, Pierrot, Sunrise) costs about $110,000 to make. That means paying the seiyuu, the director, animators, composer, etc. to make a FINISHED episode. Of course, this is including cost-saving measures like stock footage and flashbacks. An episode where virtually everything is new animation (for example, Bleach episode 122 where Ichigo fights Grimmjow) can cost up to $140,000 or even more than that.

The costs can go down (Toei can be real cheapskates on the budget in particular), and the costs can double or even triple if you hire an ace studio like Satelight and Production I.G. to do the show. But for simplicity's sake, let's calculate a mid-level show.

13 episodes at $110,000 X 13 episodes at $140,000=$3,250,000 bucks in Japan to produce. Of course, US personnel are more expensive so it is likely an "American anime" would hit $4,000,000+.

If NELVANA of all companies can summon up the cash to pay TMS to make Bakugan: New Vestroia, Cartoon Network definitely has the budget to make an anime with Pierrot or TMS. Probably could make two or three without breaking the bank.

Of course, everything would become clearer if we had a better idea how much making animation costs for Cartoon Network's current shows. Maybe someone could ask Jay Stephens how much it costs to make a typical TSS episode?

[soundmonkey44]

I Agree CN has enough Money to make more Origional Cartoons & Fund Anime Projects (Like They Did With IGPX) When it comes down To it there just being Cheap-skates who want to depend of Live action Rip-offs & Canadian Flash Animation! Meanwhile AS seems to want to get buy with those cheaply made 15 minute "Origionals".:radda: CN needs to either get there rears in gear or get some New CEO's thats all I can say!

[The Overlord]

I got some numbers here . . .

In Japan, the average mid-level budget anime episode by an average studio (TMS, Pierrot, Sunrise) costs about $110,000 to make. That means paying the seiyuu, the director, animators, composer, etc. to make a FINISHED episode. Of course, this is including cost-saving measures like stock footage and flashbacks. An episode where virtually everything is new animation (for example, Bleach episode 122 where Ichigo fights Grimmjow) can cost up to $140,000 or even more than that.

The costs can go down (Toei can be real cheapskates on the budget in particular), and the costs can double or even triple if you hire an ace studio like Satelight and Production I.G. to do the show. But for simplicity's sake, let's calculate a mid-level show.


13 episodes at $110,000 X 13 episodes at $140,000=$3,250,000 bucks in Japan to produce. Of course, US personnel are more expensive so it is likely an "American anime" would hit $4,000,000+.

If NELVANA of all companies can summon up the cash to pay TMS to make Bakugan: New Vestroia, Cartoon Network definitely has the budget to make an anime with Pierrot or TMS. Probably could make two or three without breaking the bank.

Of course, everything would become clearer if we had a better idea how much making animation costs for Cartoon Network's current shows. Maybe someone could ask Jay Stephens how much it costs to make a typical TSS episode?

That doesn't seem likely though, what seems more possible (though not very likely either) is CN would do what Nick did and just create a show like Avatar that looks like anime, but is written in America and drawn in Korea. That isn't very likely either, but it has a better chance of happening then what you discribe.

I Agree CN has enough Money to make more Origional Cartoons & Fund Anime Projects (Like They Did With IGPX) When it comes down To it there just being Cheap-skates who want to depend of Live action Rip-offs & Canadian Flash Animation! Meanwhile AS seems to want to get buy with those cheaply made 15 minute "Origionals".:radda: CN needs to either get there rears in gear or get some New CEO's thats all I can say!

Well the kids don't seem to mind watching cartoons flash, heck AS has been making show cartoons since the begining and a lot them, like Aqua Teen Hunger force, do pretty well. So if the kids like these shows, CN should stop airing them? Just because you don't like them doesn't mean the kids don't. Besides its not CN is the only company that does this, Disney XD airs canadian flash cartoons to pad its schedule too.

The fact is I think people don't mind flash and similar animation for comedy (let's face it south Park, Home Movies and the Life and times of Tim don't have the best animation either) but they are still popular because people liked the comedic writing. Flash may not work for action, but people may not mind it for comedy.

[Blueranger]

Let's be honest here. CN may have done some good moves but they still have alot of crappy stuff on their network. What I don't understand is with Nick and Disney XD being the top networks nowadays and Disney taking Naruto Shippuden from CN which is like someone taking your own hands and using them to slap yourself. Not to mention, competing against Disney's top shows on Wednesdays and what CN has to show for it is "CN Real" which is far from impressive.

You would think CN would step up their game and bring back a small portion of Toonami with oldschool anime or at least pick up Dragon Ball Kai. You cannot just pride yourself on Bakugan, Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh! 5D's. And even with those shows the manage to air them in the wrong timeslots. They could at least show those three animes on a afternoon timeslot on weekdays.

So my question is...Why does Cartoon Network continue to ignore anime shows? Even if it's for the better of the network.

[Jeff Harris]

This chestnut again? That's, what, thread #12,427 since the cancellation of Toonami that brought up this subject?

First of all . . . you do know that Dragon Ball Kai has already been seen in a longer form as Dragon Ball Z, right? Second, the anime industry is currently in flux right now domestically. Many strong powerhouses in the industry have shut down in the past three years.

Third, there's not really many strong properties available, especially anything with sustainable longevity that doesn't involve playing a game. Fourth, if you want old-school anime, you can always buy them (he says staring at his Evangelion, Cowboy Bebop, and Robotech series collections by his computer).

Fifth, there are alternatives for your anime perusal, especially Syfy, Encore Action, Funimation Channel, The Anime Network, Crunchyroll, You Tube, and Hulu. Finally, Cartoon Network isn't ignoring Japanese animation. They're just putting all their strengths into properties they have a direct ownership, marketing stake, and/or distribution deal with. The reason Naruto isn't on Cartoon Network is because Viz didn't want to give Cartoon Network, the property's biggest supporter, a small stake in the property, and they wanted it all for themselves. So, they keep the series to themselves and have a much more edited version of Naruto Shippuden on Disney XD than they would like on the air.

Cartoon Network isn't the end-all and be-all of Japanese animation. Never claimed to be either.

[Blueranger]

You might wanna reread what I said there. I never said they should just throw anime all night long because that's what I want.

For their better interest it wouldn't hurt to add some more Anime shows on from previous years. Being my point. If they want to be number 1 they should know what shows were strong in ratings for years from what others were not.

You really think kids that are younger nowadays are going to go online to find Anime shows? REALLY?

[chdr]

You might wanna reread what I said there. I never said they should just throw anime all night long because that's what I want.

For their better interest it wouldn't hurt to add some more Anime shows on from previous years. Being my point. If they want to be number 1 they should know what shows were strong in ratings for years from what others were not.

You really think kids that are younger nowadays are going to go online to find Anime shows? REALLY?^ They don't own those shows anymore. They lost the rights to pretty much all their anime except for Pokemon, Bakugan, Yugioh 5D's, and the streaming rights for Naruto.

[macattack]

Basically Cartoon Network is done with anime other than the anime they get something out of. That is Bakugan and Bakugan only. That's why Naruto is gone and why Pokemon and 5D's are in death slots. I don't even think ratings matter anymore to the executives, they want merch money or no dice.

[Jeff Harris]

You might wanna reread what I said there.I reread it.

Nick is big. Disney XD, not so much. Disney Channel, yes, but not Disney XD. They're getting respectable ratings, but they have a long ways to go before they can eclipse Cartoon Network. I agree that CN Real is less than impressive, and viewers more than agree. The execs, not so much (it's in the process of being redubbed Dudesplosion next year, but that's hush-hush for now). Oh, and I said what I had to say in response to the other stuff you said. That didn't change.

I never said they should just throw anime all night long because that's what I want.There's two ways to read that. One way to read it is you actually do want Cartoon Network to throw anime all night long, because that's what you want.

The English language is a funny thing, you know?

But you did pretty much want them to go backwards and air older anime series they aired in the past in your post.

For their better interest it wouldn't hurt to add some more Anime shows on from previous years. . . . and you did it in this one as well.

But here's the kicker, as true now as it was back then:

Cartoon Network has a limited amount of funds for acquisitions per year. It's not an infinite font of funds, and they're being selective about what they're spending those funds on. 2009 was an unusual year because they've been experimenting on what they want to work on their lineup. A lot of the live-action acquisitions flopped, but they didn't pay as much to get those in the first place, so it's no big loss. Other acquisitions paid off for them. Sorry you don't like them.

Cartoon Network won't pick up third-party shows they've picked up in the past. If they wanted to hold on to them, they still would hold on to them. Often times, they let a series go because they lost interest in them. If it was something that was popular but they gave up rights to them, it's because the original owner has no interest in giving them rights again. Plus, in some cases, some distributors are no longer in operation. I'm a little confused as to who owns the original Tenchi OVAs, Tenchi Universe, and Tenchi in Tokyo, because there's no more Geneon.

Plus, some distributors just aren't interested in returning older properties to the airwaves because they either haven't aged well or the distributor isn't marketing them at this time. You want to know why a lot of shows aired on Cartoon Network? Nearly free promotion. When they go away, often there's nothing left to sell, and the distributors moved on to the next thing.

If they want to be number one, they should know what shows were strong in ratings for years from what others were not. And that's why you see them picking up new seasons of Total Drama and everything from the folks behind TDI, often times sight unseen like Stoked. They're generating ratings now. There's a common perception that aside from Dragon Ball Z, Gundam, and Naruto, anime dominated Cartoon Network's ratings. Untrue. Cartoon Network's biggest ratings largely came from their originals and classics like Scooby-Doo and Tom and Jerry. Seriously. For a good three year spell, Cartoon Network's highest-rated series actually was Tom and Jerry. I kid you not.

You really think kids that are younger nowadays are going to go online to find Anime shows? REALLY?Well, if they know about those shows and are web savvy enough, yeah. I do. Chances are if they know about a particular series, they're likely old enough to go on the internet and already familiar with it because of the internet.

[Raidon Makoto]

You might wanna reread what I said there. I never said they should just throw anime all night long because that's what I want.

For their better interest it wouldn't hurt to add some more Anime shows on from previous years. Being my point. If they want to be number 1 they should know what shows were strong in ratings for years from what others were not.

You really think kids that are younger nowadays are going to go online to find Anime shows? REALLY?
The flaw in your logic is that Cartoon Network has repeatedly shown that it does not act in its best interest.

[Light Lucario]

You might wanna reread what I said there. I never said they should just throw anime all night long because that's what I want.

For their better interest it wouldn't hurt to add some more Anime shows on from previous years. Being my point. If they want to be number 1 they should know what shows were strong in ratings for years from what others were not.

You really think kids that are younger nowadays are going to go online to find Anime shows? REALLY?

As others have mentioned, Cartoon Network lost the rights to almost all of their previous anime series. In theory, they could try to get them back, but I seriously doubt that considering the amount of money they would need to invest in buying all of those rights back. Plus, airing all old program isn't much of a profitable plan for any channel.

While I wouldn't mind some more anime on their lineup, I don't think that it would bring the channel to being number one. Cartoon Network hasn't always had anime on its lineup, at least as far as I know. I don't remember Cartoon Network being the number one channel, at least compared to Nick and Disney, before. I know that it did better than Disney sometimes a few years ago, but it was fairly rare. Nowadays, Cartoon Network doesn't have a chance of beating either Nick or Disney as the top children channel.

I know that Dragon Ball Z and Naruto had some pretty impressive ratings in their days, but, as Jeff mentioned, I was under the impression that their original programs and specials, such as the live action Ben 10 movie, and some classic series have had higher ratings. Of course, there's also TDI, which has caused Cartoon Network to obtain more seasons of the series, as well as whatever the creators have also worked on.

The idea of kids watching any series online doesn't sound like an odd idea to me. Considering that some kids as young as eight and nine have their own Facebook page, it wouldn't surprise me if there are kids who know enough about their shows and the Internet to watch shows through legal means online.

[Blackstar]

For their better interest it wouldn't hurt to add some more Anime shows on from previous years. Being my point. If they want to be number 1 they should know what shows were strong in ratings for years from what others were not.

Anime alone wouldn't make Cartoon Network climb up to #1 in the ratings, especially not older anime. Toon has been firmly lodged in 3rd place behind Nickelodeon and Disney Channel, anime or no anime. Also, Nick has been going for several years now with no anime on it's lineup at all, and it still regularly beats Toon in the ratings.

Toon would need to shell out mucho dinero in order to re-acquire all of the old anime series that that have lost, and I doubt that the ratings that those shows would bring in would justify how much Toon would have to pay to obtain them, even though some fans would indeed watch them if they were to come back.

Let's keep in mind also that even though Japanese animation was a contributing factor, that anime did not singelhandedly put Toon on the map.

[Blueranger]

As others have mentioned, Cartoon Network lost the rights to almost all of their previous anime series. In theory, they could try to get them back, but I seriously doubt that considering the amount of money they would need to invest in buying all of those rights back. Plus, airing all old program isn't much of a profitable plan for any channel.

While I wouldn't mind some more anime on their lineup, I don't think that it would bring the channel to being number one. Cartoon Network hasn't always had anime on its lineup, at least as far as I know. I don't remember Cartoon Network being the number one channel, at least compared to Nick and Disney, before. I know that it did better than Disney sometimes a few years ago, but it was fairly rare. Nowadays, Cartoon Network doesn't have a chance of beating either Nick or Disney as the top children channel.

I know that Dragon Ball Z and Naruto had some pretty impressive ratings in their days, but, as Jeff mentioned, I was under the impression that their original programs and specials, such as the live action Ben 10 movie, and some classic series have had higher ratings. Of course, there's also TDI, which has caused Cartoon Network to obtain more seasons of the series, as well as whatever the creators have also worked on.

The idea of kids watching any series online doesn't sound like an odd idea to me. Considering that some kids as young as eight and nine have their own Facebook page, it wouldn't surprise me if there are kids who know enough about their shows and the Internet to watch shows through legal means online.
I don't know about legal. But again, like I said it wouldn't hurt to use their current anime shows alot more.

I've never liked the idea of airing popular (debatable) shows like Pokemon, Bakugan, Yu-Gi-Oh early in the morning every day of the week and on weekends.

All I'm saying is even if they cannot use their former Toonami titles, they could expand on what they have. Gormiti isn't an anime but it isn't half bad. Why not air it during a 3 or 4 timeslot?

[macattack]

You know this thread being bumped up reminded me of the two hours I wasted for the post at the top of page 7 only to have chdr take it apart in a few sentences. :sweat:

[Cartoon X]

Personally, I don't care if Cartoon Network airs anime or not. It's not like Cartoon Network is the only channel in the world. And even if I can't watch it on tv, there's the internet where there are many legal streamings, and of course dvd's. And Cartoon Network does not need anime either to be a sucess. Tom and Jerry being no.1 in the ratings for three years suprises me, but it just goes to show that quality programs almost always come on top.

[cnfan91]

I don't know how certain anime's were even shown on Cartoon Network. Looking back now, I'm surprised that Tenchi was even shown because of all the romantic and sexual themes in the show. There was also a few episodes that had partial nudity and such is also something I'm surprised was shown.

It's probably why Tenchi was never re-run like DBZ or Yu-Gi-Oh! was on the network because of the nature of the show.

I think it would be good if Cartoon Network would show some anime on late at night instead of showing Adult Swim programming wall-to-wall every night but that's just my selfish opinion.

[Silverstar]

I don't know how certain anime's were even shown on Cartoon Network. Looking back now, I'm surprised that Tenchi was even shown because of all the romantic and sexual themes in the show. There was also a few episodes that had partial nudity and such is also something I'm surprised was shown.

Some Tenchi episodes actually had total nudity, but Toon's censors airbrushed digital bathing suits on the characters for those scenes.

It's probably why Tenchi was never re-run like DBZ or Yu-Gi-Oh! was on the network because of the nature of the show.Tenchi was briefly rerun on the Saturday night [adult swim], and on the Saturday morning Rising Sun before that. It was eventually removed from Toon altogether, not due to its' content, but due its' distributor, Pioneer, going under and Toon losing the broadcasting rights.

I think it would be good if Cartoon Network would show some anime on late at night instead of showing Adult Swim programming wall-to-wall every night but that's just my selfish opinion.[as]'s current audience isn't big on anime, hence why they don't air it every night. And again, several of the anime that [as] used to show Toon has since lost the broadcasting rights to.

[Rolling Cloud]

Toon would need to shell out mucho dinero in order to re-acquire all of the old anime series that that have lost, and I doubt that the ratings that those shows would bring in would justify how much Toon would have to pay to obtain them, even though some fans would indeed watch them if they were to come back.

Whoever said they'd have to bring back old anime? There's a good amount of new ones they could use. (Soul Eater, Zetsubou-sensei, Reborn to name a few)

[Silverstar]

Whoever said they'd have to bring back old anime?

Blueranger did, back on post #131.

[Light Lucario]

I've never liked the idea of airing popular (debatable) shows like Pokemon, Bakugan, Yu-Gi-Oh early in the morning every day of the week and on weekends.

I don't like that Pokemon and 5D's have premiers in the morning either, but I think that it's better than not airing them at all. Plus, the fact that they show all three series almost every day, with the exception of Pokemon being on every day of the week, show that they're doing well enough. While the timeslots for Pokemon and 5D's are fairly early, I don't think that they're ridiculously early.

All I'm saying is even if they cannot use their former Toonami titles, they could expand on what they have. Gormiti isn't an anime but it isn't half bad. Why not air it during a 3 or 4 timeslot?

That's a valid point. Cartoon Network could expand on the action series they already have. They just don't seem to be interested in doing something like that at the moment.

[Blackstar]

Whoever said they'd have to bring back old anime? There's a good amount of new ones they could use? (Soul Eater, Zetsubou-sensei, Reborn to name a few)

I'm aware of that, chum. My post was in response to this statement:
For their better interest it wouldn't hurt to add some more Anime shows on from previous years.

Cartoon Network could easily acquire some new anime series, they just don't seem to want to at the present time.

[macattack]

Well, the main issue is that the current crop of anime haven't been as strong in recent years. Often the killing point is fanservice. Even awesome shows like Gurren Lagann and Soul Eater likely had their chances derailed by the fanservice. But I think it's because Cartoon Network wants to make a lot of merch money and the anime distributors don't want to give up more than a sliver of it. That's what reportedly killed Naruto and may be what's killing Pokemon and 5D's right now.

Spring 2009 was an incredible season though and hopefully that'll mean we'll be getting good stuff next year as those shows begin to make it to the United States. It's too bad the succeeding seasons have generally been weaker (though the fall season has decent stuff too).

It would be nice to have One Piece showing up along SGT. Frog and Soul Eater, but I don't think we're going to see that. Considering AS hasn't picked up a single series this year and appears content to let Bleach lapse I don't think anime will have much presence beyond Bakugan and Battle Spirits (if Cartoon Network gets it) by summer 2010.

Disney XD isn't going to be the hero of this industry despite what people want to believe. Though Naruto Shippuden seems to be doing well for them and that might encourage them to pick up more stuff.

[GWOtaku]

I don't see the point in trying to predict what Disney XD will or won't do, considering that nobody called Naruto getting back on TV in the first place. We don't really have any standing to believe that other titles won't eventually end up on a cable network. The events of this decade ought to be evidence enough the state of animation on television is anything but static.

As long as we're talking about ownership, it's worth remembering that Cartoon Network has tried co-producing its own anime in the past. That's how we got Big O II and IPGX. But here's the thing, that was awhile ago and those efforts were a mixed bag in terms of material success. I think it'd be great if CN ended up taking more chances on more projects like those, but it'll take a killer idea to kickstart something like that again. It really hurts when you invest in a big original project only for it to do much worse than planned (hello, Powerpuff Girls Movie). The time has to be right, and I'm not sure if that time is right now given how CN is seemingly trying to focus on fixing up its own house and (re)building its brand.

In the meantime, there are other places that anime and other foreign cartoons could go to. Nothing on the scale of Toonami to be sure, but there are places and the situation is still better than it ever was for most of the 1990s.