"If you don't stop fighting, I'm going to stop this car right now and leave you here!

[tucsoncoyote]

And here we go again....

Mother stops car and leaves her two daughters by the side of the road. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30344675/)

WHITE PLAINS, N.Y. - Usually, it's an empty threat: "If you kids don't stop fighting, I'm going to stop this car right now and leave you here!" But a mother from an upper-crust New York suburb went through with it, ordering her battling 10- and 12-year-old daughters out of her car in White Plains' business district and driving off, police said Tuesday.

A judge on Wednesday modified a temporary order of protection against 45-year-old Madlyn Primoff and her two daughters. Her lawyer, Vincent Briccetti, said Primoff is no longer barred from living or talking with her children.

Primoff, a partner in a Manhattan law firm, pleaded not guilty to a charge of endangering a child on Monday.

Briccetti would not comment on details of the case. But he said, "Madlyn is a great mother connected with a great family, and she is grateful for the outpouring of support from friends and family." There wasn't much support from strangers, however. Mothers interviewed near the scene said they couldn't imagine doing what Primoff did, though some understood the urge.

Iris Gorodess, 49, of Mahopac, who has four children ranging from 10 to 19 years old, said she sympathized with Primoff's actions, right up to the point where she pulled away.

"I used to pull over and make the kids change seats. Also, I make sure the kids have their iPods and their games. And I have a minivan, so they're not up my neck all the time.

"But I can't see pulling away. That has to be too scary for the children."

White Plains police said Primoff ordered the arguing girls out of the car Sunday evening as they were driving home. She left them at Post Road and South Broadway, an area of shops and offices 3 miles from their home, then drove off, the police report said.

The report does not say whether the girls had cell phones.
Police would not say if Primoff ever returned to look for the girls, but they said, without explaining how, that the 12-year-old eventually caught up with the mother. The 10-year-old was found by a "Good Samaritan" on the street, upset and emotional about losing her mother, police said.

The girl gave police her mother's name and their address in well-to-do Scarsdale, and they asked Scarsdale police to check Primoff's $2 million house. Shortly afterward, Primoff called Scarsdale police from home to say the 10-year-old was missing, said Scarsdale Detective Lt. Bryant Clark.

He directed her to White Plains police headquarters, where she was arrested.

Dr. Richard Gersh, director of psychiatric services at the Jewish Board of Family and Children's Services in Manhattan, said Primoff's behavior was not appropriate.

"It is a traumatic situation for a child to be abandoned by a parent like that. You can imagine what emotional issues might arise," he said.And here we have yet another case of 'bad parenting'. I mean I really don't know why the mother just got fed up with her kids, ordered them out of the car, and just drove away leaving the kids to fend for themselves in a potentially dangerous situation. Frankly if they give the mother back her kids, what's to stop her from doing this again, and with potentially more dangerous consequences?

This really makes me wonder... why haven't they passed a federal mandate that states that if you are going to have kids, that you pass a 'parenting test.'

But what are your thoughts on this one..

:coyote:

[Marvin Tikvah]

I applaud her for going through with her promise and teaching her kids a lesson.

Too often nowadays, kids get away with practically anything because new age parents are massive pushovers and the courts basically say the smallest amount of neglect is considered child abuse.

Besides, looking at the details of the report, it's far more blown up than it probably is. Those kids were preteens, old enough to know when not to act like complete brats, and old enough to not freak out when you're 3 miles away from home.

You call it bad parenting, I call it tough love.

[Rolling Cloud]

The report does not say whether the girls had cell phones.
Police would not say if Primoff ever returned to look for the girls, but they said, without explaining how, that the 12-year-old eventually caught up with the mother. The 10-year-old was found by a "Good Samaritan" on the street, upset and emotional about losing her mother, police said.

I hear different. The story I heard said that the 10yr. old was found in an ice cream shop.

[.bg]

On one hand, dropping your children off on the side of the street is pretty much leaving the door wide open for kidnapping and other such things - which is totally irresponsible and neglectful. One the other hand, the children needed to be disciplined and nothing else was working. I'm split.

[PRdude]

I applaud her for going through with her promise and teaching her kids a lesson.

Too often nowadays, kids get away with practically anything because new age parents are massive pushovers and the courts basically say the smallest amount of neglect is considered child abuse.

Besides, looking at the details of the report, it's far more blown up than it probably is. Those kids were preteens, old enough to know when not to act like complete brats, and old enough to not freak out when you're 3 miles away from home.

You call it bad parenting, I call it tough love.

No, they're still minors. Plus the report already described how the ten year old handled the situation. Kids can be a pain in the neck, but everybody started out as a kid anyway, and what the mother did was both overboard and uncalled for. I also don't care how "great" of a mother she is. She made a mistake, and she got what she deserved.

And I hope whoever thinks what she did was acceptable doesn't plan on having kids themselves.

[Mek]

No, they're still minors. Plus the report already described how the ten year old handled the situation. Kids can be a pain in the neck, but everybody started out as a kid anyway, and what the mother did was both overboard and uncalled for. I also don't care how "great" of a mother she is. She made a mistake, and she got what she deserved.

And I hope whoever thinks what she did was acceptable doesn't plan on having kids themselves.

This.

My parents made this threat all the time, but the only reason why they didn't follow up was because the sound of my dad's voice was enough to instill the fear of God into me and my sister at that age.

if the kids were older, I could see it differently, but since one was 10? Sheesh.

[Master Toon]

I don't see this being a totally bad thing unless she pulled off and stayed away for more than 5 minutes. More than likely the girls called the police the second that the mother drove off, she came back a minute or two later, the girls didn't tell her what they did and later the police kicked her door open and arrested her.

"But I can't see pulling away. That has to be too scary for the children."

This is just hamming up the situation. I wish people wouldn't make kids seem so fragile.

[Sparticus]

I'd totally do that. XD But only in an area we were all familiar with, and only for like, ten minutes. As in, I'd just drive out of sight, grab an ice cream, then drive back to pick them up. And not share my ice cream because I'm evil like that. :evil:

And since when is it not okay to leave a 10 and a 12 year old by themselves for a little while? Sheesh, my mom let me stay home alone when I was ten - 'course, she said later it was only because I was self sufficient, and she knew the neighbors really well (my sister, on the other hand didn't stay home alone untill she was 14 or 15). I was also allowed to ride my bike to the store and stuff like that.

I think her only mistake was leaving them alone as long as she did. And apparently underestimating the stupidity of her kids in that not ONLY did they wander off, they split up. *facepalm*

[Zeonic Freak]

I'd totally do that. XD But only in an area we were all familiar with, and only for like, ten minutes. As in, I'd just drive out of sight, grab an ice cream, then drive back to pick them up. And not share my ice cream because I'm evil like that. :evil:

And since when is it not okay to leave a 10 and a 12 year old by themselves for a little while? Sheesh, my mom let me stay home alone when I was ten - 'course, she said later it was only because I was self sufficient, and she knew the neighbors really well (my sister, on the other hand didn't stay home alone untill she was 14 or 15). I was also allowed to ride my bike to the store and stuff like that.

I think her only mistake was leaving them alone as long as she did. And apparently underestimating the stupidity of her kids in that not ONLY did they wander off, they split up. *facepalm*

Yea, it builds independence, makes kids think for themselves and survive, nothing wrong with that. I was always going off on myself and did my own thing, shoot i remember having hardly ANY supervision when i was a kid (i did stay close to the house/told where i was going).

This is rather crazy what she did, but if you kids smart enough, they can fend for themselves. And what kids split up after being left alone? I mean, thats the last thing they needed to do.

You sound like the kinda woman that would wanna raise my kids. LOL, that made it sound like im hitting on you:p...

[Baltofan]

I had this threat too for many years ago.

[Temple Fugate]

Aaaaaah. I love my new neighborhood. :shrug:

Yeah, horrible move on the mother's part. If she was crazy enough to drive off, at least she could have just circled the block and grabbed them thirty seconds later. That's plenty of time to terrify the kids. But she went HOME?! Unbelievable.

[Azrael24]

the story is probably wrong on several aspects, like someone already said the mother probably left them for like 2 seconds but by the time she had returned the little brats had already called the police.

[Radical Raven]

On one hand, dropping your children off on the side of the street is pretty much leaving the door wide open for kidnapping and other such things - which is totally irresponsible and neglectful. One the other hand, the children needed to be disciplined and nothing else was working. I'm split.

I feel pretty much the same way.

FTR, I hate the phrase "bad parenting", because people can use it to describe so many different things. Children are different, and each one needs to be treated differently. It's possible that this particular punishment was the exact one these children needed; though, seeing as how it led to all this, I doubt it. The only thing this teaches me is that I should never, ever, have children.

[tucsoncoyote]

Round 2... (http://www.lohud.com/article/2009904220366)

Alright since we got the start of something here. Here's the reactions of some parents from the affluent Scarsdale neighborhood where the family lives..

And while some call it 'irresponsible' and others 'lunacy' Others actually condone what this woman did.

Here's the entire story.

SCARSDALE NY - Some called her actions irresponsible.

Others thought what she did was lunacy.

But most said that while they did not condone it, they could sympathize with the now-notorious Scarsdale mother who's accused of ordering her fighting daughters, age 10 and 12, out of her car in downtown White Plains and leaving them.

As the news of her arrest Sunday evening spread, many moms interviewed yesterday in this affluent, kid-centric village, while shocked, empathized with fed-up mom Madlyn Primoff.

The 45-year-old Primoff, a high-powered New York City lawyer who specializes in international financial matters, was charged with endangering the welfare of a child, a misdemeanor, when she came to White Plains police headquarters Sunday evening to pick up her younger daughter.

The 10-year-old told police she had been arguing with her sister when her mother stopped the car at Post Road and South Broadway, told them to get out, and drove off.

The 12-year-old ran after the car and apparently caught up to it and was allowed back in.

A passer-by who saw the younger girl crying on Mamaroneck Avenue bought her ice cream and contacted White Plains police.

Primoff, a graduate of Cornell University and the Columbia Law School who is a partner at Kaye Scholer on Park Avenue in Manhattan, spent Sunday night in the police lockup in White Plains.

In White Plains City Court yesterday, Judge Barbara Leak modified an order of protection issued to Primoff on Monday after the Westchester District Attorney's Office said its child-abuse bureau and the state office of Child Protective Services had conducted a preliminary investigation.

The amended order allows Primoff to be with her children and talk to them.

Primoff did not speak during the brief court appearance but hugged her lawyer, Vincent Briccetti, afterward.

Neither would comment as they walked out of the courtroom.

Primoff remains free on $1,500 bail and is due back in court May 21.

When a reporter went to Primoff's house in the posh Fox Meadow section of Scarsdale, a man who answered the door said they had no comment.

In an age where women are becoming more open about the less-than-perfect tending of their offspring in popular blogs like truuconfessions.com, moms behaving badly certainly seem to have their fair share of sympathizers.

"I have an 11-year-old son and I don't think I'll ever kick him out of the car," said Paula Nutbeam, 31, as she pushed her 8-week-old second child in a stroller near Chase Park in the heart of the village. "But then, he didn't have a sibling to fight with until eight weeks ago."

Nutbeam said she didn't believe the mother should have been arrested.
"I think she's been punished enough not knowing where her daughter was," Nutbeam said.

Arlene Dinardo, 64, said it was a dangerous thing to do.

"I know children act up at times and can get you very upset, but it's not the right thing to do," she said. "She's lucky she found her child. She should count her blessings."

Although Elizabeth Fitzpatrick called Primoff a "lunatic"and "irresponsible," the 82-year-old mother of four, grandmother of 10 and great-grandmother of seven said arresting Primoff was a "little harsh."

"In my day, I used to yell at them good, spank them good, and got away with that for a good number of years," Fitzpatrick said. "But you can't get away with spanking anymore."

Nicole Tischler, a 34-year-old mother of a 2-year-old boy, said every situation was different.

"Until you are a mom, you can't understand how difficult it can be. When things get out of hand, I have to remind myself that he (her son) is indeed a 2-year-old boy and it's not him but me who needs to be in control."

But some moms also believe that if being hauled off to jail is the only way to learn a lesson, then it is worth it.

"That's a much better consequence than your child being kidnapped," said Annett Barrett, a mother of an 18-year-old son.

"She should absolutely be arrested. Is she out of her freaking mind? If she doesn't get it with the almost daily news about pedophiles and kidnappers out there, what would need to happen before she got it?" Barrett said.

Another Scarsdale parent suggested that sometimes you just can't take it anymore.

"I feel sorry for her. I often think of doing this myself," said Kurien Thomas, a father of three. "I'm like (former college basketball coach) Jerry Tarkanian biting the towel. Everybody has their own breaking point. I guess that was hers."Now while some folks think that for her it was okay to leave her kids off, and to just drive off with the 12 year old. Leaving a 10 year old to fend for herself is a dangerous thing. I mean when you DO have pedophiles, child rapists, and even kidnappers out there looking for 'an easy score' it makes you really wonder "What was going through this woman's mind?" After all this case is dissimmilar to that of Casey Anthony (http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=7328024&page=1) who has literally lied about everything that happened to her daughter. I mean was Casey Anthony a loving caring mother? Apparently not.

So what happens when a woman decides to leave her 10 year old all alone in a world full of sex offenders who could be lurking out there ready to pounce on a child off the streets? I mean what would have this mother thought if instead of a 'good samaritan' hadn't gotten to the child first a sexual predator had? I think she would have definitely thought twice about this. And her daughter if she had been kidnapped by a sexual predator? She would have become another 'statistic'.

As for the children, while they aren't spoiled brats these kids didn't take moms threat seriously enough. Or maybe the 12 year old did. But still when you look at this it still smacks of potential neglect just because the mother wanted to give 'tough love' to her children and teach them a valuable lesson.

So the real question remains.. How do folks feel if they left their child to the whims of today's world? After all there are a lot of people this 10 year old didn't know.. and all it would have taken is one predator to turn this story from one of neglect into one of criminal neglect with a felony in tow rather than just a slap on the wrist.

But believe me, think about Casey Anthony's daughter.. she wasn't helped by a good samaritan and look where it got her daughter.. a grave. As for Mrs Anthony, she's facing a death penalty charge.. not a pretty picture to draw in today's world of kids who are 'out of control'.

the story is probably wrong on several aspects, like someone already said the mother probably left them for like 2 seconds but by the time she had returned the little brats had already called the police.

Now the real story comes out.. If this is indeed the true story.. Both girls were fighting, Mom makes threat to them, kicks them out of car.. 12 year old chases down mom and flags her down leaving 10 year old to fend for herself in a potentially dangerous situation. I mean is this good enough to warrant that not only the mother be charged but also the 12 year old for abandoning her younger sibling..

I can see this conversation between the two girls (Oh well you're mean.. I'm going home with Mom and you can walk home through the streets chock full of potential sex offenders roaming the streets.)

Yep true sibling love don't you think?

Yea, it builds independence, makes kids think for themselves and survive, nothing wrong with that. I was always going off on myself and did my own thing, shoot i remember having hardly ANY supervision when i was a kid (i did stay close to the house/told where i was going).

It may build independence and give the kid the right to fend for themselves but still can a child fend off a 180 pound sexual predator who's bigger than them?

This is rather crazy what she did, but if you kids smart enough, they can fend for themselves. And what kids split up after being left alone? I mean, thats the last thing they needed to do.

Does this smack of Scooby Doo? (Hey sis, let's split up! You go your way and I'll go mine, and let's pray to god we don't get nabbed by some creep. (yep true Daphne-ism if I say so myself!)

:coyote:

[Marvin Tikvah]

Those kids were apparantly dropped off in a place full of stores and people. Therefore, it's safe to assume a couple of people witnessed the events unfold in front of them. Now tell me, how in the world could a child predator take those two right in the open?

You also seem to be ignoring a certain other part of the story. The older daughter left her younger sister behind to chase after the car. Now while the mom may not have been in the right to to do this, the daughters shouldn't have split up since they would be putting themselves in even more danger all alone.

Honestly it's a really stupid case, but what are you going to do?

[Wounded_Dragon]

You shouldn't expect rational behavior from children that were just abandoned by their mother.

As for being taken in an open area, that only affects the possibility of being caught, something a child predator doesn't always take into consideration.

[tucsoncoyote]

As for being taken in an open area, that only affects the possibility of being caught, something a child predator doesn't always take into consideration.

Actually all it would have taken was a so called 'good smaritan' who looks friendly driving a van to pull up alongside their victim and ask them for a ride.. and in fact are some kids gullible? Well take into account that since 1997 (According to the Department of Justice for the United States) that sexual assaults and sex crimes have risen 15% over all means that it could be fairly easy for a sexual predator to come along and snatch a child or victim off the street just by befriending them. That in itself already says a lot. Also take into account that some sex offenders actually know their victims.. So imagine someone living in White Plains or for that matter Scarsdale and seeing this 10 year old girl walking home to her house.. all it would take is a little befriending and the kid becomes a statistical part of that 15%..

and yes Sexual predators do take into consideration the fact of being caught. and yet the urges still drive them to do it.

So let's just say that Mom beat the odds.. this time.. because the next time it could end up the other way.

Those kids were apparantly dropped off in a place full of stores and people. Therefore, it's safe to assume a couple of people witnessed the events unfold in front of them. Now tell me, how in the world could a child predator take those two right in the open?

Remember our 'good samaritan'? What if he was a sexual predator? I mean it's easy to entice a child today with promises of getting treats or a ride home only to get taken out to the woods in a car of van, sexually assaulted and left for dead. It's that easy.


You also seem to be ignoring a certain other part of the story. The older daughter left her younger sister behind to chase after the car. Now while the mom may not have been in the right to to do this, the daughters shouldn't have split up since they would be putting themselves in even more danger all alone.

And therein lies the fact that not only the mother should be punished.. After all the 12 year old should be too. For abandoning her own sibling just to get on "Mommy's good side."

Honestly it's a really stupid case, but what are you going to do?

Well what can you do? That's the point here.. Parents aren't allowed to touch their kids for fear of child abuse. the Kids today can get into more trouble then it is worth? and then don't forget about the sex offenders out there.. just waiting to turn a child into a statistic.

so you're darned if you do, and you're darned if you don't.. I would rather face the child abuse charges and discipline the kids rather than letting my own children become a statistic ..

That is .. if I had kids.


:coyote:

[Marinite]

If she had just circled around the block, that would have been a great way to freak the kids out. Kids today have it way too easy, if you can't even spank them anymore. No wonder all junior high and high school kids I see today are so much worse than half a decade ago when I was in high school. I'm all for 'tough love', so I can't blame the mother too much.

[mkalv]

What she did was wrong, but I almost don't blame her; those kids sound annoying!

But, really. Does the movie Changeling mean anything to you?

[Sparticus]

Yea, it builds independence, makes kids think for themselves and survive, nothing wrong with that. I was always going off on myself and did my own thing, shoot i remember having hardly ANY supervision when i was a kid (i did stay close to the house/told where i was going).

This is rather crazy what she did, but if you kids smart enough, they can fend for themselves. And what kids split up after being left alone? I mean, thats the last thing they needed to do.

You sound like the kinda woman that would wanna raise my kids. LOL, that made it sound like im hitting on you:p...

XD I know better than to have kids. :p

[Dr.Pepper]

I found what she did just not appropriate. Like other people said, maybe if she just circled the block (even though I wouldn't do that) it might be okay if the kids were like teenagers.

[En Sabah Nur]

All this happens because parents aren't allowed to spank or hit their kids anymore. I was spanked and slapped when I was a kid when I misbehaved. I turned out just fine. Now, school teachers tell kids that if their parents touch their kids with any kind of force to call 911 and report child abuse. This gives the kids enormous power over their parents, so parents are left helpless with empty words and empty threats that their kids just ignore. Parents are too afraid of their kids being taken away so all they have to do are empty threats. Remember the case of a mother hitting her child in a car, that just happened to be in front of the camera? She is now forever "Monster-Mom". Why because she attempted to discipline her child. Of course beating your child senseless is not the answer, discipline by pain is a good way to teach kids about authority and superiority, and most of all obedience. There have to be limits though.

[James]

All this happens because parents aren't allowed to spank or hit their kids anymore. I was spanked and slapped when I was a kid when I misbehaved. I turned out just fine. Now, school teachers tell kids that if their parents touch their kids with any kind of force to call 911 and report child abuse. This gives the kids enormous power over their parents, so parents are left helpless with empty words and empty threats that their kids just ignore. Parents are too afraid of their kids being taken away so all they have to do are empty threats. Remember the case of a mother hitting her child in a car, that just happened to be in front of the camera? She is now forever "Monster-Mom". Why because she attempted to discipline her child. Of course beating your child senseless is not the answer, discipline by pain is a good way to teach kids about authority and superiority, and most of all obedience. There have to be limits though.

I'm not sure there is a logical correlation there. I wasn't spanked and I turned out fine. So is spanking necessary? Personally, I think spanking only becomes necessary because the relationship between the parent and child has started to create a dysfunction where that is the only option. That doesn't mean I approve, but I can see how it can become an effective parental tactic in that situation.

I don't think spanking begets abuse necessarily. Like with dogs (and pack analogies are very good ones as the difference between getting dog, child - or even soldier - to behave within its unit carry similar quantifiers), violence to an animal can make it aggressive, or it can break it - but I'd like to think in all those situations we can change behaviour without hitting and creating the potential for trouble.

I don't think hitting brings respect, just fear of being hit - and you can see how that futility can encourage violence on the next generation.

But I do agree, socially, problems occur when the teachers and parents are bound by certain rules. I don't think the answer is to start hitting - the answer is education - showing parents what they do right and wrong. It's the world's most difficult role and there is little to no education - it's crazy.

Because while kids are innately smart - they will learn to play an adult, they are still woefully inexperienced and extremely dependent. Any behaviour expert will tell you that can give the adult the upper hand IF they are taught how and are strong enough to remain objective. Too often adults are the failure because they don't hold their temper - they exercise physical (and sometimes mental) punishment as a release. Something a child can do and have the excuse of age on their side, but adults need to know better.

I'm a firm believer in consistency. Whether you are strict or relaxed in parenting, consistency is the strongest bond, and the first rule in educating parents. Not an easy task to be consistent 24/7, but I believe if parents were more consistent, so the kid knew what was expected and what its boundaries were definitively, there would be no need for slaps to try and dominate - domination could come from the child knowing what definitive repercussions were from their actions.

IMO. :)

[En Sabah Nur]

I'm not sure there is a logical correlation there. I wasn't spanked and I turned out fine. So is spanking necessary? Personally, I think spanking only becomes necessary because the relationship between the parent and child has started to create a dysfunction where that is the only option.But did you misbehave? I did, and I was punished for it accordingly.

I don't think hitting brings respect, just fear of being hit - and you can see how that futility can encourage violence on the next generation. If you are afraid of being hit, you will eventually stop misbehaving, or at least start listening to your parental authority. You don't always have to do as you are told by your parent out of respect, physical punishment will archive the same result. Methods might differ, but as long as the desired result is archived. At that point you do whatever works, one or the other, or a combination of two, as long as parental actions command respect and obedience of a child, thats all that matters.

[TripleS]

On one hand, dropping your children off on the side of the street is pretty much leaving the door wide open for kidnapping and other such things - which is totally irresponsible and neglectful. One the other hand, the children needed to be disciplined and nothing else was working. I'm split.
I'm with ya. T_T

While I am completely sick of parents being such big push overs and letting their kids get away with hardly any discipline, if you really cared about your child... why would you leave them out in the street where they could be kidnapped or raped by a stranger?

I do agree though that the kids were old enough to have known better and many kids these days act so horrifically immature, I will say that the reality check she forced them to have should have at least been enough of an impact to keep them quiet from now on.

Though she is responsible for any danger her children may end up facing, kids these days are in general very selfish and take advantage of what they have, so I will admit that any other means of punishment would have probably meant nothing to them.

[Sparticus]

I'm not sure there is a logical correlation there. I wasn't spanked and I turned out fine. So is spanking necessary? Personally, I think spanking only becomes necessary because the relationship between the parent and child has started to create a dysfunction where that is the only option. That doesn't mean I approve, but I can see how it can become an effective parental tactic in that situation.

I don't think spanking begets abuse necessarily. Like with dogs (and pack analogies are very good ones as the difference between getting dog, child - or even soldier - to behave within its unit carry similar quantifiers), violence to an animal can make it aggressive, or it can break it - but I'd like to think in all those situations we can change behaviour without hitting and creating the potential for trouble.

I don't think hitting brings respect, just fear of being hit - and you can see how that futility can encourage violence on the next generation.

But I do agree, socially, problems occur when the teachers and parents are bound by certain rules. I don't think the answer is to start hitting - the answer is education - showing parents what they do right and wrong. It's the world's most difficult role and there is little to no education - it's crazy.

Because while kids are innately smart - they will learn to play an adult, they are still woefully inexperienced and extremely dependent. Any behaviour expert will tell you that can give the adult the upper hand IF they are taught how and are strong enough to remain objective. Too often adults are the failure because they don't hold their temper - they exercise physical (and sometimes mental) punishment as a release. Something a child can do and have the excuse of age on their side, but adults need to know better.

I'm a firm believer in consistency. Whether you are strict or relaxed in parenting, consistency is the strongest bond, and the first rule in educating parents. Not an easy task to be consistent 24/7, but I believe if parents were more consistent, so the kid knew what was expected and what its boundaries were definitively, there would be no need for slaps to try and dominate - domination could come from the child knowing what definitive repercussions were from their actions.

IMO. :)

Uh, actually, most competent psychologists will tell you that a quick swat across the rear can go a loooong way. :sweat: It's not about pain per-se, but gaining attention.

[Scirel]

There are way better ways to instill respect in a child than violence.

- not being allowed to play with friends/go out
- no fast food
- restricitons on TV/ videogames /internet
- not going to a usual "reward" place/toy that week/month
- Earlier Bedtime

All of these are superior ways to gain respect/obedience without harming a child you love.

You can get used to being hit. I as a kid would take a spanking any day over not being allowed to play or watch TV. A spanking hurts, but only lasts less than a minute. TV/Play restricitons can last hours or days, eternity to a child. But also as a kid, my mom got used to quickly that I always thought objectively about these things, so spankings went by the wayside quickly.

[The Wolverine]

There are way better ways to instill respect in a child than violence.

- not being allowed to play with friends/go out
- no fast food
- restricitons on TV/ videogames /internet
- not going to a usual "reward" place/toy that week/month
- Earlier Bedtime

All of these are superior ways to gain respect/obedience without harming a child you love.

You can get used to being hit. I as a kid would take a spanking any day over not being allowed to play or watch TV. A spanking hurts, but only lasts less than a minute. TV/Play restricitons can last hours or days, eternity to a child.
Agreed with all of this.

I would gladly take a spanking over any other punishment too. It was humiliating, but it was always the easy way out. Taking away something of mine was always much effective in punishing me.

[Zeonic Freak]

Agreed with all of this.

I would gladly take a spanking over any other punishment too. It was humiliating, but it was always the easy way out. Taking away something of mine was always much effective in punishing me.

Are you kidding? I got both at the same time, all the time when i messed up. Which in turn, made me not mess up as often. Yea, i got some tough (yet lovable) parents.





It may build independence and give the kid the right to fend for themselves but still can a child fend off a 180 pound sexual predator who's bigger than them?



Does this smack of Scooby Doo? (Hey sis, let's split up! You go your way and I'll go mine, and let's pray to god we don't get nabbed by some creep. (yep true Daphne-ism if I say so myself!)

:coyote:

Im glad you took my words to heart... and serious too.

Yes, there is still a chance to get raped or molested because thats just the world we live in, but on average being around people is the best thing if your in that position. Because not every person on every street corner wants to kill you and molest you, there are good people in this world, and that 10 year old got a good shot to the person who helped her.

No, i wouldnt leave my child on the side of the road to fend for themselves (unless thats what they really want), but a quick pull to the side, a few slaps on the rear, and the words "Ill give you something to cry about", is really what sets kids in shape. I know, because i heard that when i was young, and its taught me alot to respect people and to grow up out of my childish ways.

To be honest, these girls sound like brats. I mean yea, siblings were basicly made to argue and fight, but one of them (the oldest mind you) needs the will and disiplne to let things go and not make a big deal about it. This mother just didnt feel like letting them out, there was a reason, and the 2 pushed a nerve that should have never been pushed. If you wanna talk about going crazy, my mother broke a chair trying to get my bother who was like 10 at the time to do his homework, because my bro is just that thick headed. Needless to say, hes never passed that point since then.

The Bible illustrates that people are sheep, which in turn sheep are stupid, which states that people are stupid, and the same goes with kids. If you dont disiplne you child, they will be a selfish hinderince on society and by then are to stupid and selfish to turn their ways around to better humankind. Every person needs a form of disiplne so we can see our mistakes, because none of us are perfect, and thats why mistakes and failure exsist.

And that is my grandness of knowledge i will pass on, to get trampled on and quoted the heck out off...:D

[Scirel]

I think the older kid should be cut some slack. She was only older by 2 years! That's like..nothing. 12 year olds can be left alone at home for brief periods, but not outside!

Plus, this was a panic situation in their minds. For all they knew, they would never see their mom again. What she should have done is made a threat like the ones I mentioned earlier, and carried it out if they did not stop.

The key with these threats is to ALWAYS carry them out. If you back down, they think they can get away with anything. But as long as the non-violent threats are always carried out when the child is warned and crosses the line, there is really no need for violence.

[Marvin Tikvah]

Why are people acting like 12 and 10 year olds are completely helpless? When I was those ages, I didn't start crying the few times when I was either lost or without a ride home. I usually kept a cool head and looked for a phone to call my parents.

[Scirel]

Why are people acting like 12 and 10 year olds are completely helpless? When I was those ages, I didn't start crying the few times when I was either lost or without a ride home. I usually kept a cool head and looked for a phone to call my parents.


Everybody is different. Not everybody has the same personality in/reaction in the same situation.

[James]

But did you misbehave? I did, and I was punished for it accordingly.

Of course I did, but the relationship had been built that the reprisals and gates were constant. Now, don't get me wrong, my parents were far from perfect, but I do believe good parenting will create a situation where hitting is not acceptable.

Which stands to reason when you see how the best soldiers can be broken by the enemy, or tricksters can dupe even the most intelligent adult. It's a game of psychology, and when it comes to children, we are actually talking about fairly simple, inexperienced drives and patience that ultimately should bear in the adults favour - if the adult was educated as to how.

I'm certainly not saying smacking will destroy a kid/turn it into a monster/prove the parent is bad. I think though we should as a people look to avoid that situation and understand there are options, just as parents its a tougher path than physical force, but ultimately I think its a more productive one for all involved if it can be realised.

Uh, actually, most competent psychologists will tell you that a quick swat across the rear can go a loooong way. :sweat: It's not about pain per-se, but gaining attention.

I've not see one recent report in a long time to suggest any such thing. If you are to bring contention like this to the table, when society - both legally and practically is moving away from physical harm to kids of any type, you best bring some evidence to support this rather subjective term of most "competent" psychologists.

You can gain attention from a kid without hitting it, just as a smart boss can get a worker to do his job without threatening to fire them, or a good interrogator can get a criminal to talk without lifting a finger.

It's a horrible, cold perspective, but its psychology through and through. Understand the nature of your target and learn to sculpt that target. Behavioural science for a very difficult task and we're simply not educated in the processes which have proven time and again that you can bring up a child without slapping. Just as you can get through a relationship without having to give your partner a good slap when they do wrong.

It amazes me how we don't condone it for any other relationship, but feel that punishing kids this way is acceptable. I'm sure if you gave your spouse a quick slap occasionally they might fall in line, but we don't look to do that with adults - why? Because they might walk, or slap back. So really we have to ask ourselves why is it acceptable with kids? Is it because we know they can't walk or slap back?

Again, I'm not saying it can't be effective, what I'm questioning is whether its necessary any more when there are alternatives to hitting - and the real question is whether we as people need to change our attitude to parenting and not see it as a god given right, but a privilege that requires help and learning if we're to do it right.


The key with these threats is to ALWAYS carry them out. If you back down, they think they can get away with anything. But as long as the non-violent threats are always carried out when the child is warned and crosses the line, there is really no need for violence.

I agree. It's consistency which often creates extreme behaviour, kids either pushing boundaries because they know they can break them or because they don't know for certain where the boundaries are because they aren't consistent. Same goes with animal training - which if you study, bears a remarkable similarity to the basic concepts in raising kids - consistency is the key. Bend once, and you'll find the target's behaviour will alter and it becomes harder to reinforce the rules later. And like kids, dogs will push buttons too! Some will push limits, particularly if they don't know for sure where they definitely are.

The worst behaved children I've seen come from families where there is no consistency, regardless whether the family is strict or lax. If there is no consistency, the kid will control and you can see them playing the parents against each other - parental consistency between parents is another key ingredient. Such a difficult dynamic, hats off to any one who does it well!

[Sparticus]

I've not see one recent report in a long time to suggest any such thing. If you are to bring contention like this to the table, when society - both legally and practically is moving away from physical harm to kids of any type, you best bring some evidence to support this rather subjective term of most "competent" psychologists.

You can gain attention from a kid without hitting it, just as a smart boss can get a worker to do his job without threatening to fire them, or a good interrogator can get a criminal to talk without lifting a finger.

It's a horrible, cold perspective, but its psychology through and through. Understand the nature of your target and learn to sculpt that target. Behavioural science for a very difficult task and we're simply not educated in the processes which have proven time and again that you can bring up a child without slapping. Just as you can get through a relationship without having to give your partner a good slap when they do wrong.

It amazes me how we don't condone it for any other relationship, but feel that punishing kids this way is acceptable. I'm sure if you gave your spouse a quick slap occasionally they might fall in line, but we don't look to do that with adults - why? Because they might walk, or slap back. So really we have to ask ourselves why is it acceptable with kids? Is it because we know they can't walk or slap back?

General psych class circa 2004, community college. I no longer have the book (and it was a new book at the time (http://www.amazon.com/Exploring-Psychology-David-G-Myers/dp/0716771411/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1240593458&sr=1-1 - I think that's it, they don't have cover images of the older editions), but it pointed out that YES spanking works with younger kids IF it's done correctly.

Actually, if it's carried out not unlike one deals with dogs, it's highly effective. A sharp NO and a quick swat across the rear of a two year old works best until they start asking "why not". THEN, you really only need the "no" and you explain the reasons. If they persist, then it's time out, taking away toys and so on and so forth.

The problem is, it's usually not done correctly. For some reason, as soon as people become parents, they forget what it's like being a kid, and assume their spawn will immediately understand what they're doing is wrong. When they don't, it tends to cause the adult to loose their temper and go overboard with things, which is why spanking is offically discouraged.

It's different with older kids, of course. My mom used to charlie horse my sister and I when we got in our more annoying fights. That was generally pretty effective. She's fast too - never even saw her coming half the time - which was dumb 'cause she'd been yelling at us for a while to cut it out. We really should have ben ready for it. XD

[TripleS]

There are way better ways to instill respect in a child than violence.

- not being allowed to play with friends/go out
- no fast food
- restricitons on TV/ videogames /internet
- not going to a usual "reward" place/toy that week/month
- Earlier Bedtime

All of these are superior ways to gain respect/obedience without harming a child you love.
Unfortunately in this day and age, kids have learned that they can find ways to rebel. They can sneak out to hang out with their friends, for example. And let us not forget that boy who shot his parents because they took his Halo away. True, that boy was probably mentally ill, but people these days are selfish enough to go to that extent.

And while a pacifist point of view is very respectable in this modern day society, I honestly will say that I believe there is no possible way we will EVER find a way to escape the urges of violence COMPLETELY. In other words, world peace is physically impossible, because animals fight all the time by instinct... and we have those instincts too. Some of us can control ourselves, though there are one too many who can't. That's just the way it is.

I admit though, that two extremes should not be the solution to our problems, but being too lenient has gotten us absolutely nowhere.

[EDIT:] Good example of a kid who needs a spanking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwql6_RJ348&feature=related My ears are bleeding from his whines. D;

[Azrael24]

Spanking worked a lot better than grounding because i found ways to get around that but there was no way to get around spanking. im a calm person and im pretty obedient. i know spanking helped me a lot and it was what made me more obedient.

[HellCat]

Can I vote that by the sounds off it this entire matter involves a stuck up rich family and more likely than not all are over payed dolts who probably can't function as normal people?

I think some in here are assuming just because the woman is a mother she's very compotent. I'm sorry, no. Biologically reproducing just shows you and a friend know how those parts between both your legs work. I'd say there are a great number of people who despite being biological parents do not make good parents in practice. Being a good parent involves alot of sacrafice and understanding, which increasingly most people aren't willing to give. I'm not calling these children saints by any means but being the parent doesn't make you right by default. Some so called parents are effective monsters who have no clue or interest in correctly raising what they've brought in to the world.