In 10,000 years, will people think we thought Superheroes were real?

[Style]

Okay, stay with me here:

assume for a second that people will still be around in 10,000 years. and that they'll study our time. And looking at our time, they'll see a lot of our superhero fiction. What will they think of it?

Will they think we worshipped the Superheroes as gods? will they think we thought they were real? What's more, will fringe scientists of that time argue that Superheroes actually were real in our time citing the cross-cultural consistency in in the way we describe characters like Superman and Batman for over 70 years? will people argue that Bruce Wayne MUST have been based on a real figure?

What do you think?

[The Huntsman]

I think there would need to be some sort of cataclysmic event for that to happen. I mean, unlike previous generations, our generation has so many means of recording information to pass on to future generations, and barring some huge catastrophe that results in that information being lost, future generations will know that comic books were fictional. You could cite fictional figures that some people still believe were based on real people, such as King Arthur or Robin Hood, but people believe such things because there weren’t enough historical records from the period to prove one way or another. However, there are numerous historical records from our generation to remove any doubt for future generations.

So, unless there’s a nuclear holocaust that results in hundreds of years of people living in isolation, gradually losing their knowledge, I doubt the future will have any problem understanding the truth about super heroes.

[Style]

I think there would need to be some sort of cataclysmic event for that to happen. I mean, unlike previous generations, our generation has so many means of recording information to pass on to future generations, and barring some huge catastrophe that results in that information being lost, future generations will know that comic books were fictional. You could cite fictional figures that some people still believe were based on real people, such as King Arthur or Robin Hood, but people believe such things because there weren’t enough historical records from the period to prove one way or another. However, there are numerous historical records from our generation to remove any doubt for future generations.

So, unless there’s a nuclear holocaust that results in hundreds of years of people living in isolation, gradually losing their knowledge, I doubt the future will have any problem understanding the truth about super heroes.It's a good point I have considered, but I suppose it was mostly about how historical precedent is now interpreted. That's why I said 10,000 years...

[Romanesque]

I think there would need to be some sort of cataclysmic event for that to happen. I mean, unlike previous generations, our generation has so many means of recording information to pass on to future generations, and barring some huge catastrophe that results in that information being lost...Having "many means of recording information" isn't necessarily an advantage for long-term preservation. Paper might survive a few thousand years, but most digital media will be lucky to last a hundred years, let alone a thousand. Digital preservation is dependent on constant upkeep. Even if some of the media somehow survives in a readable form, how the heck are they going to get usable information without extensive documentation? There will be huge gaps in history if modern forms of recording suffer just a couple hundred years of neglect.

On the other hand, various superhero toys and figures probably will still be floating around everywhere 10,000 years from now, like much of our society's plastic waste... those might be a giveaway.

--Romey

[The Huntsman]

Having "many means of recording information" isn't necessarily an advantage for long-term preservation. Paper might survive a few thousand years, but most digital media will be lucky to last a hundred years, let alone a thousand. Digital preservation is dependent on constant upkeep. Even if some of the media somehow survives in a readable form, how the heck are they going to get usable information without extensive documentation? There will be huge gaps in history if modern forms of recording suffer just a couple hundred years of neglect.
Perhaps, but I don’t believe that there is any fault in my argument that it would take a cataclysmic event for these problems to occur. You mentioned that data preservation requires constant upkeep, which is along the lines of what I’ve said. Unless something absolutely horrible happens, the information will still exist 10,000 years in the future.

[Romanesque]

Perhaps, but I don’t believe that there is any fault in my argument that it would take a cataclysmic event for these problems to occur. You mentioned that data preservation requires constant upkeep, which is along the lines of what I’ve said. Unless something absolutely horrible happens, the information will still exist 10,000 years in the future.In terms of human history, 10,000 years is a really long time. Do you expect 10,000 years without some sort of cataclysm, where even a simple economic cataclysm may suffice? Sure, anything's possible, but is it particularly likely?

--Romey

[Old Guy]

Having "many means of recording information" isn't necessarily an advantage for long-term preservation. Paper might survive a few thousand years, but most digital media will be lucky to last a hundred years, let alone a thousand. Digital preservation is dependent on constant upkeep. Even if some of the media somehow survives in a readable form, how the heck are they going to get usable information without extensive documentation? There will be huge gaps in history if modern forms of recording suffer just a couple hundred years of neglect.

On the other hand, various superhero toys and figures probably will still be floating around everywhere 10,000 years from now, like much of our society's plastic waste... those might be a giveaway.

--Romey

Newspapers and magazines are still around. There's also people still shooting with film and video tape. There's also books still being written about various subjects. I think a good amount of stuff will survive.

[Romanesque]

Newspapers and magazines are still around.Newspapers are currently printed on very low-grade paper, with rapidly biodegradable ink. Even the earliest surviving newspapers didn't necessarily make it laying around outdoors, either. I'm less certain about how magazines will fare, but 10,000 years of silverfish will take a literal bite out of the bulk of them. Newspaper, magazine, or comic book, whatever survives will represent a more or less broken history... exactly the situation needed for the question being asked.

There's also people still shooting with film and video tape.The entire history of film is a blip next to 10,000 years. Traditional film has begun phasing out and could easily become nothing more than a novelty within our lifetimes. As far as I know, film lying around won't last indefinitely, and older film still needs preservation. What survives will again provide an incomplete (and often skewed) picture of modern reality.

Analog video tape is an even smaller blip, requiring even more specialized hardware... which might actually survive that long. I doubt any of it will be in working order, but it could conceivably be reconstructed. The magnetic tape, however, won't last 10,000 years. Good luck preserving it even a hundred years. What survives will have been converted to digital formats, which themselves need upkeep.

There's also books still being written about various subjects. I think a good amount of stuff will survive.But we're not talking about what's being done or what will continue to be done. We're talking about information that will survive continuously for 10,000 years. Big difference, yes? Speaking of books, modern books won't last well, either. The paper, the bindings... forget about it. Papyrus and vellum have the edge on survival.

--Romey

[Old Guy]

As far as I know, film lying around won't last indefinitely, and older film still needs preservation. What survives will again provide an incomplete (and often skewed) picture of modern reality.

UCLA has been doing an amazing job of preservation. I saw a TV report where they revealed their breathtaking library. They even have important speeches of JFK in perfect condition. There's also other organizations, like one run by Martin Scorsese, that has been doing a great job as well. So, as long as there's people who care we can preserve stuff.

[Romanesque]

UCLA has been doing an amazing job of preservation. I saw a TV report where they revealed their breathtaking library. They even have important speeches of JFK in perfect condition. There's also other organizations, like one run by Martin Scorsese, that has been doing a great job as well. So, as long as there's people who care we can preserve stuff.The fact that there's even an amazing job to be done should indicate the ultimate fragility of things. UCLA won't be around for 10,000 years. How much of they're preserving is "backed up" elsewhere? I'd be shocked if LA made it that long, to say nothing of what we know as California or even the USA. War, famine, earthquakes, fire, economic shifts, cultural shifts, political shifts, and a slew of things we wouldn't even think of predicting will happen. War alone destroys history all the time, even as people who care protest. How much faith can I have in a university, or any other organization, with barely 100 years' history to keep films around for 100 times as long?

--Romey

[The Huntsman]

The fact that there's even an amazing job to be done should indicate the ultimate fragility of things. UCLA won't be around for 10,000 years. How much of they're preserving is "backed up" elsewhere? I'd be shocked if LA made it that long, to say nothing of what we know as California or even the USA. War, famine, earthquakes, fire, economic shifts, cultural shifts, political shifts, and a slew of things we wouldn't even think of predicting will happen. War alone destroys history all the time, even as people who care protest. How much faith can I have in a university, or any other organization, with barely 100 years' history to keep films around for 100 times as long?
Well, the future you’re describing has no practical information that survived, so how will the future even know about super heroes? Toys? They’ll probably be buried under tons of dirt, and even if they found them, would they really make sense of a two inch figurine? If the future is so messed up that no records exist of our era, then I doubt they would even be able to figure out that we had fictional works based on super heroes, and therefore would not be able to assume that they were real.

[Romanesque]

Well, the future you’re describing has no practical information that survived, so how will the future even know about super heroes?Nah, where'd you get that assumption from? :sweat:

If the future is so messed up that no records exist of our era, then I doubt they would even be able to figure out that we had fictional works based on super heroes, and therefore would not be able to assume that they were real.Some stuff will survive. The history represented, however, will be incomplete. That's also the premise of the thread.

--Romey

[The Huntsman]

Where'd you get that assumption from?
Because you’re shooting down every possible scenario. You keep saying that some information will survive, yet when we mention that some information will survive, you insist that it couldn’t possibly survive. You know, we have copies of several texts that are thousands of years old; even if the original becomes destroyed, new copies will be made. It’s how people preserve history, as people naturally want things to be remembered. Do you really believe that people will watch all of the books become old and decrepit without making an effort to create new copies in order to preserve their content? I also wouldn’t count out future generations of coming up with a new means to store data that would survive any of your proposed catastrophes, as technology is constantly advancing and people aren’t going to suddenly stop caring about the past.

The only way I can see your proposed scenario playing out is if 98% of the world’s population is wiped out by nuclear war and the other 2% live in some remote jungle in South America. Other than that, I’m pretty sure that information will find some way to survive. We’re stubborn creatures. Unlike other animals, we care about the past and what we leave for the future. Even in the worst of times, historical records will survive and people will make copies of things and so forth. Perhaps, as you say, there will be some gaps. But I doubt there will be enough gaps to make them think Superman was real and flew around New York fighting terrorists.

[Old Guy]

Because you’re shooting down every possible scenario. You keep saying that some information will survive, yet when we mention that some information will survive, you insist that it couldn’t possibly survive. You know, we have copies of several texts that are thousands of years old; even if the original becomes destroyed, new copies will be made. It’s how people preserve history, as people naturally want things to be remembered. Do you really believe that people will watch all of the books become old and decrepit without making an effort to create new copies in order to preserve their content? I also wouldn’t count out future generations of coming up with a new means to store data that would survive any of your proposed catastrophes, as technology is constantly advancing and people aren’t going to suddenly stop caring about the past.

The only way I can see your proposed scenario playing out is if 98% of the world’s population is wiped out by nuclear war and the other 2% live in some remote jungle in South America. Other than that, I’m pretty sure that information will find some way to survive. We’re stubborn creatures. Unlike other animals, we care about the past and what we leave for the future. Even in the worst of times, historical records will survive and people will make copies of things and so forth. Perhaps, as you say, there will be some gaps. But I doubt there will be enough gaps to make them think Superman was real and flew around New York fighting terrorists.

Exactly. Some things will be lost and forgotten, but some things won't. If the work of Shakespear is still around then I'm sure Steven Spielberg movies will still be around as well. And since we still have lots of info on the Romans and Greeks then future generations will have lots of info on the United States.

[Temple Fugate]

I'm going to skirt the hypotheticals surrounding whether or not comic books and comic book movies will survive 10,000 years and get straight to the question.

If archaeologists of 12008 were to dig up some of our cities and find evidence of superheroes in popular culture, I think they would ultimately deduce that they were pure fiction. Yes, some of the more avid collectors have shrines in their homes, and you can find busts and action figures everywhere, but to me the most telling evidence that we don't hold them up to be real people is the large-scale monuments. No buildings are dedicated to the Avengers. No statues in public parks are made for Superman. Non-fiction public records such as speeches, legislation, biographies, etc don't mention superheroes. (In the biography case, if a superhero is mentioned, their fictional context is probably made clear through the description.) If archaeologists manage to get a decent look at most aspects of our culture, they'd be able to figure it out.

And who's to say they don't have their own superheroes? If they did, they'd be able to bridge the cultural gap quite easily.

[Old Guy]

And who's to say they don't have their own superheroes?

Who's to say Batman and Spider-Man won't still be around? I mean, Robin Hood and King Arthur are still around.

[Ajax]

Who's to say Batman and Spider-Man won't still be around? I mean, Robin Hood and King Arthur are still around.Dude.....were talking 10,000 years from now. King Arthur and Robin Hood have been around for how long, what since Medieval Times. So I dont know how good that comparsion might be.



Exactly. Some things will be lost and forgotten, but some things won't. If the work of Shakespear is still around then I'm sure Steven Spielberg movies will still be around as well. And since we still have lots of info on the Romans and Greeks then future generations will have lots of info on the United States
Once again Shakespear was alive some 400/500 years ago. Were talking about 10,000 years from now. Yeah I dont think anyone questions that people 1,000 or even 2,000 years into the future will have information of our current era (unless the earth suffers from some cataclysmic event).

[bigdeath]

In 10,000 its likely most info from this era will be lost. Its just far too long a time. So there's not much to discuss. Digital media and printed copies just won't last that long.

Will they think we worshipped the Superheroes as gods? will they think we thought they were real? What's more, will fringe scientists of that time argue that Superheroes actually were real in our time citing the cross-cultural consistency in in the way we describe characters like Superman and Batman for over 70 years? will people argue that Bruce Wayne MUST have been based on a real figure?

No, 10,000 isn't going to change the fact that humans are still human and can understand each other if they make the attempt. Also, when you research long ago civilization you don't jump to conclusions. If they find stories about batman then they won't jump to the conclusion that people worshipped him or that he was real unless there is some evidence to think so. Comics are nothing more than modern day fairy tales. And I doubt some forum of fairy tale stories will disappear even after 10,000 years.

[Dudley]

Considering how some people think Dante's Inferno descriptions of hell are true, I wouldn't be surprised that in 10,000 years, the existence of superheroes will be considered folklore just like dragons are today.

[Swordfish_II]

I'd have to say that Futurama isn't probably that far off how the future will view the 20th/21st centuries.

And surely within 10,000 years, they'll be some major cataclysm that wipes out most of human knowledge. Heck, I'd say even 1000 years might be pushing it at the rate things are going.

[Romanesque]

Because you’re shooting down every possible scenario. You keep saying that some information will survive, yet when we mention that some information will survive, you insist that it couldn’t possibly survive.Nah, I've hardly shot down a fraction of the possible scenarios. I'm merely denying that people 10,000 years from now will have a clear picture of modern life. I'm also trying to be realistic, based on the amount of time involved and the known fragility of information storage.

Copies of ancient texts are a very different matter. They were made differently, handled differently, and copied differently. Even then, what survived was often a matter of sheer chance; thousand-year-old texts aren't just lying around everywhere...

There will be people who preserve history for as long as there are people, but the new copies they create won't be the old copies. The new copies will, at best, be modern printing. At worst, the new copies will be digital. Either way doesn't matter, as 10,000 years is plenty of time for things to go wrong. Meanwhile, the original copies will absolutely continue to decay whether people stand by and watch or not. Heck, given 10,000 years, a lot of the copies, old and new, may even go through a period of active destruction. It's happened more than once in human history.

There's also no reason to believe that some future generation will come up with an ultimate means of future-proofing data. Technological advancement has only lead to weaker forms of storage. Generally speaking, the denser the data you wish to store, the more fragile the means of storage. Think about that for a while. Your hypothesis gets worse, unfortunately. If advanced technology did allow for dense, robust storage, what are the chances of future generations being able to read said data once the knowledge of how to access it is lost?

But I doubt there will be enough gaps to make them think Superman was real and flew around New York fighting terrorists.That's only regarding "fringe scientists", though some might very well believe we had people like Batman doing similar things. The primary question, however, is whether or not they'll think we believed in the existence of superheroes.

--Romey

[AlgeaX]

You know, this topic would make a great story for a sci-fi novel.

[Toonfan2000]

I think the "will people think we thought ____ were real" thing could apply to more than superheroes. People might think that Harry Potter was real someday, unless someone has evidence to prove it was fiction.

[Ajax]

I think the "will people think we thought ____ were real" thing could apply to more than superheroes. People might think that Harry Potter was real someday, unless someone has evidence to prove it was fiction.I highly doubt that humans 10,000 years from now are gonna be that stupid as to not tell the difference between what was fiction and what was not. Unless some kind of catastrophe happens that leaves humans nomadic and everything is reverted back to the stone age then maybe. But with the techonolgy that would be available 10k years from now, all any normal human being from that era would have to do is glance at a history book, period.

[SSJPabs]

Exactly. Some things will be lost and forgotten, but some things won't. If the work of Shakespear is still around then I'm sure Steven Spielberg movies will still be around as well. And since we still have lots of info on the Romans and Greeks then future generations will have lots of info on the United States.
This is also to Romey. A lot of the Ancient Roman/Greek written stuff we have is because the Muslims (and Byzantines kind of) preserved it and then later Europe got them back. That is, it was maintained by a different human civilization so we continuity. Would there be that kind of continuity? It all depends on the state of human civilization and if we made conscious effort to preserve some things even if we were mostly gone (like say in sealed containers) or just left it lying around. There are some things that aren't going to degrade for a long long time.

That said, we only recently figured out the full extent of what the Atikythera Mechanism was after over a century--we hadn't advanced enough to understand what it was analogous to in 1900! It's turning out the ancients (and Song China too!) were pretty advanced and could have gone through the industrial revolution but didn't for various reasons. The point here is that advanced civilizations have existed before and our knowledge could very well be limited. Though I remain personally confident that we are living at the technological pinnacle of human civilization. Maybe we'll make the mountain bigger, but it's never been this big before.

[Romanesque]

A lot of the Ancient Roman/Greek written stuff we have is because the Muslims (and Byzantines kind of) preserved it and then later Europe got them back. That is, it was maintained by a different human civilization so we continuity. Would there be that kind of continuity?There could be that kind of continuity, yes. In fact, that's an excellent point. I'd argue that there has to be that sort of continuity for a lot of current information to survive.

Still, there's an element of luck involved. Someone has to value and preserve stuff. We currently have an awful lot to be preserved. If the means of preservation narrow down to a single culture or location (which oft happens), the information is put at great risk. Accidents are a reality.

It all depends on the state of human civilization and if we made conscious effort to preserve some things even if we were mostly gone (like say in sealed containers) or just left it lying around. There are some things that aren't going to degrade for a long long time.This goes back to the information density problem. In general, the more durable the medium, the less information you can reasonably encode. Carefully thought-out exceptions typically amount to a single point of failure, not being practical for common use.

That said, we only recently figured out the full extent of what the Atikythera Mechanism was after over a century--we hadn't advanced enough to understand what it was analogous to in 1900! It's turning out the ancients (and Song China too!) were pretty advanced and could have gone through the industrial revolution but didn't for various reasons. The point here is that advanced civilizations have existed before and our knowledge could very well be limited. Though I remain personally confident that we are living at the technological pinnacle of human civilization. Maybe we'll make the mountain bigger, but it's never been this big before.Wonderful parallels. Will our own civilization one day wane, leaving generations of the distant future to ask why we never advanced further? How long will it take them to decipher whatever information survives us? Who knows if anyone will reach the same heights again.

--Romey

[Captain Highwind]

I'm less worried about whether they'd think superheroes were real and more so that they would think George Washington was fictional.

Besides, I'm sure by then genetic augmentation would render the superhero point moot. [/crazy talk] 8D

[charles duncan]

Yes.

[Temple Fugate]

Yes.Care to elaborate on that?

I'm less worried about whether they'd think superheroes were real and more so that they would think George Washington was fictional.We have the ability to determine the existence of most historical figures from civilizations past. There is more to people like George Washington than entries in encyclopedias and monuments that bear his name or likeness. There is a lot of physical proof that the man really existed, and assuming a good portion of our media survives, historians should be able to deduce that Washington was a real person and leader in the same way we know that Caesar was really a Roman Emperor and Odysseus was simply a character in an epic.

Besides, I'm sure by then genetic augmentation would render the superhero point moot. [/crazy talk] 8DOne can only hope. I wouldn't mind a few "super" powers.

All this discussion is probably moot, however. If people of the distant future are really curious about our civilization, there's bound to be a holographic Orlando Jones in a cave somewhere willing to tell them all they want to know.

[charles duncan]

Care to elaborate on that?
Yes. of course by then, we'll probably be superheros ourselves, altered to resist the environment and lack of vegetation, living some lives in domes that shoot back, and it will be ordinary people that wear stiff robes and try to smite us under broiling skies. we'll keep the internet around when we seize it from the government some 40 years from now, keep evolving it on our terms, and bring to life all those superheros as not just us, but also as light 3-d holograms (solid ones that not only give damage, but also have 3-d sayings of 'ziff' and 'off' and 'buy me') . and this light form of life will last a very long time, with religions about comic books becoming bibles in each mind of these future superheros, and everyone believing simply not because we are with all the heros able to tell people flat out about their pasts on demand, but because there will be bounties on each person remaining on the world who do indeed believe because if they resist in said beliefs (a thing that can't be too good for the survivors of some past wars. , the superheros will have target practice. people also modified quite a bit, for good sport.

and one of the first ones will be ____________ 's mutant canine descendants for the dogs and cats will rule as supported by said superheros.

now don't ask me what becomes of the villians. maybe natural selection does a 360 on them and crashes all their parties. serves them right for making myths about damsels in distress to lure the heros into monstrous advertizing pits (never too happy about their simple descendants
trapped on pages like this).

ask me in 10,000 years if i'm right for sure; be sure to bring a shovel.

[Captain Highwind]

One can only hope. I wouldn't mind a few "super" powers.

Absorbing Man properties would be the bomb.

[Yash]

I'm reminded of the Futurama rendition of the moon landing.

We're whalers on the moon,
We carry our harpoons~