C&C - Anything Else [4/20-4/26]

[Mugen]

Welcome to the Anything Else thread! This week, Code Geass makes its American television debut on Saturday at 1:30 am. Will AS promote it, or will they make a promo after the show debuted?


New Episodes in Lime Green
New Arrivals in Red
Return to Weekday Glory in Orange
Very slight change in time in Light Blue

http://adultswimhq.com/sundays.jpg April 20th
10.00/1.30 Family Guy
10.30/2.00 American Dad
11.00/2.30 Family Guy
11.30/3.00 Robot Chicken
11.45/3.15 Aqua Teen Hunger Force
12.00/3.30 Metalocalyspe
12.15/3.45 Squidbillies
12.30/4.00 Assy McGee
12.45/4.15 Tim and Eric Awesome Job Show, Great Job
1.00/4.30 Oblongs
5.00 Inuyasha
5.30 Inuyasha

April 21st
11.00/2.00 Family Guy
11.30/2.30 Family Guy
12.00/3.00 Robot Chicken
12.15/3.15 Aqua Teen Hunger Force
12.30/3.30 Boondocks
1.00/4.00 Harvey Birdman
1.15/4.15 Harvey Birdman
1.30/4.30 Home Movies
5.00 Inuyasha
5.30 Inuyasha



http://adultswimhq.com/tuesdays.jpg April 22nd
11.00/2.00 Family Guy
11.30/2.30 Family Guy
12.00/3.00 Robot Chicken
12.15/3.15 Aqua Teen Hunger Force
12.30/3.30 Boondocks
1.00/4.00 Harvey Birdman
1.15/4.15 Harvey Birdman
1.30/4.30 Home Movies
5.00 Inuyasha
5.30 Inuyasha



http://adultswimhq.com/wednesdays.jpg April 23rd
11.00/2.00 Family Guy
11.30/2.30 Family Guy
12.00/3.00 Robot Chicken
12.15/3.15 Metalocalyspe
12.30/3.30 Boondocks
1.00/4.00 Harvey Birdman
1.15/4.15 Harvey Birdman
1.30/4.30 Home Movies
5.00 Inuyasha
5.30 Inuyasha


http://adultswimhq.com/thursdays.jpg April 24th
11.00/2.00 Family Guy
11.30/2.30 Family Guy
12.00/3.00 Robot Chicken
12.15/3.15 Aqua Teen Huner Force
12.30/3.30 Boondocks
1.00/4.00 Harvey Birdman
1.15/4.15 Harvey Birdman
1.30/4.30 Home Movies
5.00 Inuyasha
5.30 Inuyasha



April 25th
11.00/2.00 Robot Chicken
11.15/2.15 Robot Chicken
11.30/2.30 Aqua Teen Hunger Force
11.45/2.45 Aqua Teen Hunger Force
12.00/3.00 Metalocalyspe
12.15/3.15 Metalocalyspe
12.30/3.30 Boondocks
1.00/4.00 Harvey Birdman
1.15/4.15 Harvey Birdman
1.30/4.30 Home Movies
5.00 Inuyasha
5.30 Inuyasha


http://adultswimhq.com/saturdays.jpgApril 26th
11.00/2.00 Metalocalyspe
11.15/2.15 Metalocalyspe
11.30/2.30 Venture Bros.
12.00/3.00 Shin-Chan
12.30/3.30 Bleach
1.00/4.00 Death Note
1.30/4.30 Code Geass
5.00 Inuyasha
5.30 Inuyasha

[macattack]

Barring a sudden schedule shift, Code Geass is definitely going to be DOA as it stands right now.

[Beat]

Barring a sudden schedule shift, Code Geass is definitely going to be DOA as it stands right now.

Better Geass than Gurren, I suppose. Pizza Hut doesn't know what it's missing.

[Mugen]

Well, AS did promote Code Geass... with a black and white card bump. They also mentioned they suck at anime.:anime:

[Kitschensyngk]

They also mentioned they suck at anime.:anime:

That is the first correct decision they've made all year.

[Lightning Tiger]

its good to know im not the only one who treats the word Anime as a verb:D

(Anime isnt the only noun i do that with)

[v1cious]

DAMN!:eek: they're putting their premier show at the end of the lineup? what the hell are they thinking?

[D Dubbs]

DAMN!:eek: they're putting their premier show at the end of the lineup? what the hell are they thinking?

"Anime doesn't bring in the ratings we want, so let's do away with it."

[v1cious]

"Anime doesn't bring in the ratings we want, so let's do away with it."

and stuff like this is the reason why.

[Sketch]

Barring a sudden schedule shift, Code Geass is definitely going to be DOA as it stands right now.

It would seem they acknowledged your schedule idea on air but don't plan to impliment it or any of the others or even the ideas suggested in them.

But hey I saw yours up there. Mine was not. I'd have to figure it was because I gave them more than one schedule in that thread. I lol'd that they actually noted the all porn and Hanna Montana schedule that one person made up.

In case you were wondering when this happened it was the first bump of the night before American Dad started and they whizzed by them very very fast but I have DVR so I could rewind and then play them in slow motion to read all the schedules that were shown.

[blitzkrieg]

DAMN!:eek: they're putting their premier show at the end of the lineup? what the hell are they thinking?

"Anime tends to pull in the same ratings no matter where we put it."

[Kitschensyngk]

Better do it again for good measure...

CODE GEASS PREMIERES ON ADULT SWIM THIS SATURDAY AT 1:30AM EDT AND ON ADULT SWIM VIDEO FRIDAY AT SIX.

Transmitido en SAP...

LA PROGRAMA CODE GEASS EMPEZARA EN LA ADULT SWIM ESTE SABADO A LA UNA Y MEDIA EN LA NOCHE Y EN EL ADULT SWIM VIDEO ESTE VIERNES A LA SEIS.

[Mugen]

Look, old-school AS bumps.:anime:

[animePWNS]

Shin Chan
Hiro: Hot moms! Hot moms! Hot moms! Hot moms! Hot moms! Hot moms! Hot moms! Hot moms! Hot moms! Yes, I am a caring and sexy dad—AAHHH!
Ench: Okeydokey, that was a weird greeting.
Hiro: Principal Ench! You look a lot like a guy who saw my wife beat me!
Ench: Heh heh heh, you don’t say. Shin’s class is right over there.
Hiro: Thanks and nice suit. Seriously, what kind of accent is that?
Ench: Well, my dad’s from Peru and my mother was a gypsy.
Hiro: Ah! I didn’t say anything, I was just humming!
Ench: Your humming sounds a lot like words.
Hiro: Come on babes…AAHHH!
Mr. K: You’re all clear, Mr. Nohara.
Hiro: Oh, the guy from the bushes, Shin’s mentioned you.
Mr. K: Watch your legs, sir. Some of the kids do bite.
Hiro: Thanks. Every man here looks like a sociopath. Yup, it’s an elementary school all right. Who’s next, a janitor covered in puke and sawdust? AHAHAHA! Yes!

Bleach
Aizen: Thank you, Momo. I’m a fortunate man to have you as a subordinate. Thank you, Momo, from the bottom of my heart. Thank you…and good bye.
*STABS MOMO!!!:eek:*
Momo: :crying:What have you…done? Why?
Aizen: :mad::evil:
Aizen: Let’s go, Gin.
Gin: :evil::evil::evil:Yes, as you wish, Captain Aizen.

Death Note
News Report: In April 2012, Light Yagami, at the age of 23, joined Japan’s National Police Agency. In the summer of 2012, Kira’s killings increased at an unprecedented rate. Numerous people around the world were terrified of Kira, and yet, there were just as many cheering him on. Gradually, their private thoughts became public opinion, and soon, certain nations began to accept Kira’s judgment. The world was heading into a dark age in which Kira’s will was the only law.:eek:

Cowboy Bebop
Vicious: So, you’re finally awake. I told you before, Spike, I’m the only one who can kill you and set you free.
Spike: Those words apply to you as well, Vicious. Either way, it’s going to end here.
*Fight, exchange of weapons*
Spike: Julia is dead. Let’s finish it now.
Vicious: As you wish.
*Deathblows, Vicious collapses dead*
Julia: It’s all a dream.
Spike: Yeah, just a dream.
*A dying Spike descends the stairs, raises his finger and...
Spike: Bang…:cool:
*dies*

So long again, Bebop. And hello to Code Geass next week. Can't wait to see this.

[Rabi~en~Rose]

Saturday, April 12th


Bleach: 294,000
Death Note: 223,000
Venture: 216,000

dropped back down again


Down: Venture, Bleach, Death Note

[Master Moltar]

Ouch, not looking good at all.

[Rabi~en~Rose]

Sunday, April 13th


Family Guy (11:00): 1,337,000
Chicken: 1,057,000
ATHF: 895,000

but sunday is up!


Up: Family Guy, Chicken
New: ATHF

[Master Moltar]

At least Sunday is going up.

[livingfruitvirus]

It appears the Shin Wars promos didn't work.

[Demonic Raven]

Saturday = :(

Family Guy = 1337

[macattack]

It would seem they acknowledged your schedule idea on air but don't plan to impliment it or any of the others or even the ideas suggested in them.

But hey I saw yours up there. Mine was not. I'd have to figure it was because I gave them more than one schedule in that thread. I lol'd that they actually noted the all porn and Hanna Montana schedule that one person made up.

In case you were wondering when this happened it was the first bump of the night before American Dad started and they whizzed by them very very fast but I have DVR so I could rewind and then play them in slow motion to read all the schedules that were shown.

Huh. I'm really surprised. An amateur like me gets on the air but a full-fledged schedule master doesn't. Though I guess it's because of what you said, you submitted more than one schedule. But I'm sure they read yours all the way through.

I'm glad I got another tenth of a second's worth of fame if nothing else (got flash-bumped once before). :sweat: Still, I'm kinda wondering now: why did they bother asking us for our opinions if they're not going to execute something remotely close to any of them?

I don't have DVR, so thanks for telling me. I suppose my chance to see it will come when it gets inevitably uploaded to bumpworthy. Or maybe it'll repeat later this night . . . I've had to miss most of AS tonight for studying for finals.

[macattack]

In case people were curious what my schedule was, here it is:

11:00-The Boondocks

Reason: The only other AS non-anime comedy other than Futurama and Robot Chicken that's found any success on Saturday. Sharp-tongued, witty, with some action thrown is as well along with a anime-like visual style makes it a good fit for the night and a good kick-off to the night after Toonami finishes up.

11:30-Shin-Chan

Reason: It's a bridge of sorts. Shin is just as acerbic as The Boondocks, if not more so, but its visual flavor is definitely more "anime", but the dub is custom-made for Adult Swim's caustic style of humor. Thus, it fits in well inbetween Boondocks and the show that comes up next.

12:00-Bleach

Reason: Have action kick off proper with the most popular anime Adult Swim currently has. Putting it behind the popular Shin-Chan ensures it will encourage at least some of the comedy viewers to stick around, plus Bleach's frequent screwball humor meshes well with the two earlier comedies. But the show packs in enough action along with the show's trademark silliness to make it yet another bridge, to darker, more serious shows . . .

12:30-Code Geass

Reason: Give the new show a chance, behind the highest-rated show on the block. Darker and more serious than Bleach, but not as much so as Death Note, Code Geass is the perfect in-between show, firing off questions of morals and "who is the evil one" with hardcore action and one-liners, but is nowhere near as goofy as Bleach.

1:00-Death Note

Let's face it, this show is struggling worse than Eureka Seven. It has to be shoved later in the night because if placed earlier it is just going to drag Bleach and Code Geass down. At te same time, though, the dark mood and suspenseful mind games echoes Code Geass', but Death Note takes it to a hardcore level, with none of the humor to soften the blow that Geass often does. Death Note is an animated late-night murder serial and so it fits in well at this slot, behind Geass.

1:30-Trinity Blood

As much as I'd like to see Samurai Champloo, one of the greater crossover hits ACTN has managed, have a final run here, the show is up this summer, and it is doubtful that the show would be able to complete a final run before the contract is up. Thus, it makes sense to make the final show Trinity Blood, which is the only show set to expire this year that actually has a chance to finish a final run once-a-week at this time. Run Champloo on weekdays or double showings on AS Video to give it a sense of closure.

_________________________________________________________________
Yeah, I tried to leave no stone unturned. :sweat:

[The Collector]

Why don't they just dump the comedy already, it's quite clear that it hasn't helped the ratings at all. Make Saturdays all anime again since they dropped it from every other day of the week, especially now that they're going to have four premiers for a while. The ratings will stink regardless but at least they'd save some face with the anime fans out there by doing it... not that they care about that, of course.

[Master Moltar]

I missed the schedules bump earlier, but I just caught it now. It's not as negative as I thought. They just said to keep submitting them and they'll keep reading.

Besides, if numbers like the ones for last week keep coming in, the more seriously they'll consider a change.

[Sketch]

Someone recently suggested to them that they give up on anime on-air and focus on streaming anime as the only way they show anime. There's evidence that indicates that could work better but not everyone has a fast enough connection to be able to enjoy anime that way.

I do believe there would be value in having some web exclusives however. Premiere them on the web and if they do great then try them in one of the later slots on Saturday night. Monster, NANA, BECK and Claymore would probably all do farely well streaming on AS.com reguardless of what kinds of ratings they may or may not be able to get on TV. And I'll bite the bullet and say if Jetstream doesn't have the balls to play Hunter x Hunter or Buso Renkin then they could probably find a subtable home along with those (I really don't want it to come to that though).

In reguards to Saturday night...

Honestly all I want from them is for them to try Family Guy or at least American Dad on Saturday night before the anime and if that doesn't work then there's nothing that will. The comedy lead the block has right now is not helping at all. It could be a matter of 11-12AM not being watched enough in general due to competition for 18+ in those hours and if that is the case then let Toonami have 11-12 and start the anime premieres at 12 or 12:30. But they're not going to do that. They're going to keep putting a different comedies in that hour until they find one that works well enough. In other words, they're going to keep doing things just as they are now.

[Beat]

1. Saturday ratings continue to fail. At this point, the news is about as shocking as other headlines like "Water is wet," "the sky is blue," or "oil prices reach new record". It's par for the course.

2. Code Geass is dead on arrival. We all knew it would happen. Bandai, word of advice. Get that shiny new Gurren Lagann dub on IFC or Starz or Sci-Fi. Truthfully though, by the time it's ready, Saturdays won't be all anything. They'll probably have reverted back to CN proper if possible.

3. Shin-chan FAILS. Everyone kept going on and on and on about how Shin-Chan was the only thing Saturdays had going for it, etc, before the premiere. It's obvious that assessment was wrong. But when a show has more poop and fart humor than Assy McGee without the one-liners, it's time to move on.

4. Adult Swim admits they suck at anime in light of Sci-Fi airing stuff from years ago and not failing. Well, I guess they finally realize Paranoia Agent, Eureka 7, and Death Note were bad ideas while passing on Black Lagoon (Cowboy Bebop meets girls with guns with a dash of Tom Goes to the Mayor thrown in) because of Revy was stupid. Vindication rings hollow, but it's there.

Edit- I did like the promo where they acknowledge that dating takes away their Friday ratings, and the UFC takes away their Saturday ratings. Just noticed it. Speaking of which, with a fight card on Saturday, I expect low Sat ratings yet again. Actually, here's a question for LFV, how much do boxing and the UFC eat into AS Saturday ratings? I remember the last time they aired a Saturday Night card on SpikeTV and Adult Swim was clobbered.

[MegaJ]

Just get anime off Saturdays and move it to Thursdays with Fridays and Saturdays being repeat premieres night. The anime gets more viewers, possibly more promotion, everyone's happy.

[blitzkrieg]

4. Adult Swim admits they suck at anime in light of Sci-Fi airing stuff from years ago and not failing. Well, I guess they finally realize Paranoia Agent, Eureka 7, and Death Note were bad ideas while passing on Black Lagoon (Cowboy Bebop meets girls with guns with a dash of Tom Goes to the Mayor thrown in) because of Revy was stupid. Vindication rings hollow, but it's there.

Just once I would like someone who says that Sci-Fi isn't failing with anime to give actual ratings to establish what "not failing" as.

[Beat]

Just once I would like someone who says that Sci-Fi isn't failing with anime to give actual ratings to establish what "not failing" as.

Apparently 600,000 or so. On Mondays at 11:00. Can't confirm the total ratings since Sci-Fi only shows its top 10 for the week.

I still say though, it's running in the face of a scary shadow (http://i31.tinypic.com/978bo6.gif). Sci-Fi has an idea but no idea how to capitalize on it.

[Mugen]

Apparently 600,000 or so. On Mondays at 11:00. Can't confirm the total ratings since Sci-Fi only shows its top 10 for the week.



Where do they show this at?

[livingfruitvirus]

Edit- I did like the promo where they acknowledge that dating takes away their Friday ratings, and the UFC takes away their Saturday ratings. Just noticed it. Speaking of which, with a fight card on Saturday, I expect low Sat ratings yet again. Actually, here's a question for LFV, how much do boxing and the UFC eat into AS Saturday ratings? I remember the last time they aired a Saturday Night card on SpikeTV and Adult Swim was clobbered.

I know UFC is Spike's signature show according to their upfront preview (http://www.medialifemagazine.com/artman2/publish/Cable_20/For_Spike_pursuit_of_the_elusive_male.asp), but I don't know if it physically takes away viewers from AS or other networks, and whether or not the two would be able to co-exist with good ratings. Are people saying "I wish I could watch Bleach but dammit UFC is on!" That's the question to ponder.

When the ratings start getting erratic is when I doubt the whole system. I don't think 500,000 people will tune in for one week and then 300,000 will go away again. It's too selective. When you look at the hits for broadband entertainment websites which are actually accurate, they tend to go up gradually, down gradually, or remain pretty consistent. Then there's the whole DVR debate. Although I think when the ratings are really high, they're more and more accurate. I totally believe UFC is Spike's biggest show and millions tune in.

But I've said this many times. It's not about who gets the most people watching, it's about who bills the highest revenue. As long as the anime companies are profiting on their releases then they're in good shape. Right now FUNimation and Viz seem to be the only ones aggressively marketing themselves though. Fruits Basket continues to sell for FUNimation and it's never been on a big network here! ADV's falling apart and they only have themselves to blame. Bandai's making a comeback, and here I thought they were doomed. Thank goodness Japan finally gave in and dramatically dropped down the licensing costs, albeit at the unfortunate demise of Geneon.

Apparently 600,000 or so. On Mondays at 11:00. Can't confirm the total ratings since Sci-Fi only shows its top 10 for the week.

I'd like to know the source of that too. I doubt Sci-Fi called you and invited you for a private meeting to look at their books.

[blitzkrieg]

One of the reasons I question the success of Sci-Fi's anime block is the complete and utter lack of any information on it. It wasn't mentioned in Sci-Fi's Upfront. There are basically no news articles about it. So I have to wonder how well it really is doing.

Do I think it's bombing? Probably not. The thing is that Sci-Fi doesn't exactly have huge standards as is. And anime is cheap programming, it's the general appeal of it. So without concrete numbers I don't think anyone can assume too much into things.

[livingfruitvirus]

One of the reasons I question the success of Sci-Fi's anime block is the complete and utter lack of any information on it. It wasn't mentioned in Sci-Fi's Upfront. There are basically no news articles about it. So I have to wonder how well it really is doing.

Do I think it's bombing? Probably not. The thing is that Sci-Fi doesn't exactly have huge standards as is. And anime is cheap programming, it's the general appeal of it. So without concrete numbers I don't think anyone can assume too much into things.

Sci-Fi has pretty low standards for their network as a whole. Originals like ECW and Battlestar Galactica (2.1 million viewer premiere) are in a whole `nother ballpark. Otherwise like a lot of cable networks in its league, there's no timeslot scarcity. 21 hours a week are brokered.

Originally the 11-1 Monday timeslot on Sci Fi averaged 44,000 M18-34 (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=189652). Females are a mystery. This was pre-Ani-Monday.

[Master Moron]

It would seem they acknowledged your schedule idea on air but don't plan to impliment it or any of the others or even the ideas suggested in them.

But hey I saw yours up there. Mine was not.

Was mine up there? I think I saw my user name in the corner, but it was so quick I can't be sure.

It appears the Shin Wars promos didn't work.

I'm still not sure why they decided to put Shin Chan on Saturdays. It was never a big ratings grabber. I guess they just want to put all the anime on one night. So, I guess it's less of a lead in and more a show they need to shove somewhere. Though, I don't know why it's on so early. I guess since the later hours get better ratings they thought putting it earlier would do the least damage or something. Hell if I know how they decide their schedules.

Saturday = :(

Family Guy = 1337

And those are really old episodes of Family Guy too. They seriously must have some sort of contractual limitation in not being allowed to air Family Guy on Saturdays. I mean, if an episode that old can get those kinds of ratings it could boost Saturday's ratings way, way up.

[MegaJ]

Does anyone have a slowed down version of the Saturday Schedule bump?

[Sketch]

Was mine up there? I think I saw my user name in the corner, but it was so quick I can't be sure.

Were you Master Moron1 or something like that? If so then yes. Unfortunately I don't have a recording because I was just watching at the time.

[Beat]

Where do they show this at?

Press release and their forums. Unfortunately, this means numbers like 600,000 are a case of "he said, she said," and like I said before, I cannot confirm them. They were quoted as saying Ani-Monday has gotten better ratings than ASA's average since 2006.

I think 600,000 is a generous estimate to be frank. 500,000 tops seems like a good estimate.

[livingfruitvirus]

There was something from Manga in recent months that stated the timeslot's increase since the anime was added. I thought it was in ANN's con reports but I can't find it. I'll dig it up, somehow.

[RomanMack]

Shin Chan got promos... And it still looks like it fails.

Not... Not much else they can do. I bet if they put Family Guy on first, that'll get better ratings than the anime... But as soon as the anime starts the ratings will be back to their old crappy self.

Man... Its just time to admit it... The grand majority of Adult Swim's audience just doesn't like anime.

[FinnMacCool]

Let me ask, does anyone know how many people one Nielson viewer is supposed to represent? How many households would have to skip a week to account for ratings going up and down by 100,000 people?

[blitzkrieg]

Let me ask, does anyone know how many people one Nielson viewer is supposed to represent? How many households would have to skip a week to account for ratings going up and down by 100,000 people?

Well the national sample size is something like ~12,000 households and there are approximately ~112.8 million tv households.

So basically shows with a small niche following are hurt more by the Nielsen system than shows with large followings because it's worse to lose $1 when you only have $2 than it is when you have $20.

[D Dubbs]

Yeah, so each Nielsen household more or less represents 10,000 households, going by those numbers.

[Beat]

Man... Its just time to admit it... The grand majority of Adult Swim's audience just doesn't like anime.

Well, that's kinda what happens when year after year you posts bumps about how much it sucks, how much you hate it, how much your comedies are better, etc, etc.

Oh, and by convincing people anime is like Paranoia Agent, Eureka 7, and Death Note instead of like Full Metal Alchemist, Afro Samurai, and Ninja Scroll.

[RomanMack]

Well, they only bash on it because they do bring in lackluster ratings.

[Beat]

Well, they only bash on it because they do bring in lackluster ratings.

The bashing came first, followed by low ratings, followed by bashing, followed by lower ratings, and of course, shows that only served to marginialize and isolate all but the hardest of hardcore otaku, half of which would never watch the show dubbed anyway.

I call it "The spiraling cone of ignorance."

[Scirel]

If you reeealy wanted to get technical, the bashing started with Inuyasha. Then, AS made the huge mistake of extrapolating Inuyasha fans to EVERYONE who watches anime on adult swim. Nobody liked that except, of course, people who hated anime in the first place and now had even more reason not to watch it.


So, the true culprit here is S&P, because they would not let IY air on toonami, by your spiraling cone, we now have low anime ratings on adult swim.

[Beat]

The abuse and dissolution of the IY fandom was the biggest fault they had. Considering how whenever someone procalims they like Tim and Eric, a lameass "Great Job!" pun follows, they would have wise to take the audience from that show and run with it to the endzone.

We all know WS liked Lupin III, so when Lupin failed thanks to IY, I think WS got mad and took it out on the fans.

[HG Revolution]

Oh, and by convincing people anime is like Paranoia Agent, Eureka 7, and Death Note instead of like Full Metal Alchemist, Afro Samurai, and Ninja Scroll.

Outside of these forums, I know people who like Death Note and even some Paranoia Agent fans. I don't know anybody who likes Afro Samurai. I don't even like Afro Samurai.

[Beat]

Outside of these forums, I know people who like Death Note and even some Paranoia Agent fans. I don't know anybody who likes Afro Samurai. I don't even like Afro Samurai.

Someone liked it, considering how well it did, the fact that the DVD and album sold well, and that a sequel was commissioned. I think Afro, and this is a point I may have repeated and I'm sorry if I have, is not the type of show that appeals to the otaku audience, the one that likes Death Note and Paranoia Agent. And that's GOOD. That's a good thing. It brings in a new, fresh audience, probably more consistent with Spike's UFC watching males than ASA's nonexistent one.

[macattack]

Beat, I am honestly tired of you turning every thread into a vehicle for Kim Manning-bashing. Trust me, she's not the only reason why ASA is in trouble. Remember that it was Manning that picked up Fooly Cooly, Case Closed, Samurai Champloo, Ghost In The Shell, and Fullmetal Alchemist. Her choice to grab Death Note was understandable because of DN's high manga sales, and Code Geass looks like it'll be her best decision quality-wise of the last couple of years.

She has picked both successes and failures. Which is what happens with virtually every job. Stop attacking her because you feel she's the sole reason why ASA is struggling. She's not even the tip of the iceberg.

[HG Revolution]

Someone liked it, considering how well it did, the fact that the DVD and album sold well, and that a sequel was commissioned. I think Afro, and this is a point I may have repeated and I'm sorry if I have, is not the type of show that appeals to the otaku audience, the one that likes Death Note and Paranoia Agent. And that's GOOD. That's a good thing. It brings in a new, fresh audience, probably more consistent with Spike's UFC watching males than ASA's nonexistent one.

Some of the Death Note fans I know aren't even otakus. My dad hardly ever read comics or watches anime and with one exception NEVER reads manga. That exception is Death Note.

[Mugen]

So, the true culprit here is S&P, because they would not let IY air on toonami, by your spiraling cone, we now have low anime ratings on adult swim.

But see, IY was successful for AS. Its one of the few anime series to consistent high ratings. The final episodes that AS aired over two weeks(with no promotion except for a black and white bump) did really well. I believe the first week had like 600,000 18-34 viewers, while the second week, it was a little over 450,000 18-34 viewers.

[RomanMack]

Some of the Death Note fans I know aren't even otakus. My dad hardly ever read comics or watches anime and with one exception NEVER reads manga. That exception is Death Note.That's fine and dandy, but it doesn't apply to the whole way of things...

[MegaJ]

While anime-bashing isn't the sole cause of the bad ratings on Saturdays (and I don't think it leads to dissolution of fanbases, it can't be good. You'd never see another network openly trash fans of series and put down series and say that they suck, it just doesn't look good in front of the viewers.

I think Afro, and this is a point I may have repeated and I'm sorry if I have, is not the type of show that appeals to the otaku audience, the one that likes Death Note and Paranoia Agent.

I've been seeing this Death Note and Paranoia Agent argument again and again, and I just have to say this: Death Note =/= Paranoia Agent. I don't even think they fit into the same genre, Death Note is action/suspense and Paranoia Agent is it's own monster. Plus, I've heard TPTB at AS say that they never expected PA to do well, they just wanted it because it's really good and it is a good contrast with Samurai Champloo. You always want a line-up to have some diversity.

Plus, as someone said upthread Death Note has high manga sales and it's a pretty well known name in anime circles, so could you at least understand why AS would pick it up?

[Beat]

While anime-bashing isn't the sole cause of the bad ratings on Saturdays (and I don't think it leads to dissolution of fanbases, it can't be good. You'd never see another network openly trash fans of series and put down series and say that they suck, it just doesn't look good in front of the viewers.



I've been seeing this Death Note and Paranoia Agent argument again and again, and I just have to say this: Death Note =/= Paranoia Agent. I don't even think they fit into the same genre, Death Note is action/suspense and Paranoia Agent is it's own monster. Plus, I've heard TPTB at AS say that they never expected PA to do well, they just wanted it because it's really good and it is a good contrast with Samurai Champloo. You always want a line-up to have some diversity.

That's as bad as bashing a show. You flat out admit that you put a show that can't draw into a struggling block? Isn't that suicidal as far as ratings?

[HG Revolution]

That's as bad as bashing a show. You flat out admit that you put a show that can't draw into a struggling block? Isn't that suicidal as far as ratings?

But the block wasn't struggling at the time. It was coming off that period in early 2005 where the ratings on Saturday nights were doing the best they'd ever done. Only when they decided to start the block off with Inu-Yasha rather than Futurama did the ratings really struggle (which was around the same time Paranoia Agent came along, but you can't logically say its presence was responsible for a huge drop in the ratings of the shows which aired before it).

[Kuroba]

Oh, and by convincing people anime is like Paranoia Agent, Eureka 7, and Death Note instead of like Full Metal Alchemist, Afro Samurai, and Ninja Scroll.

I much rather have people think anime is like Paranoia Agent or Death Note, than anime such as Afro Samurai and Ninja Scroll.

Not really seeing your hate for PA, anyway. Just because it wasn't a ratings-grabber doesn't mean it was a bad show. In fact's it's one of the more thought-provoking anime out there.

[Beat]

I much rather have people think anime is like Paranoia Agent or Death Note, than anime such as Afro Samurai and Ninja Scroll.

Not really seeing your hate for PA, anyway. Just because it wasn't a ratings-grabber doesn't mean it was a bad show. In fact's it's one of the more thought-provoking anime out there.

Way back when, when people thought anime, they thought of Akira, Ninja Scroll, Robotech, shows with a lot of action and were more adult than your average Saturday morning fare. NOT a lot of endless babble. That's what AS is trying to label it as, and that's not a good thing.

[Kuroba]

Way back when, when people thought anime, they thought of Akira, Ninja Scroll, Robotech, shows with a lot of action and were more adult than your average Saturday morning fare. NOT a lot of endless babble. That's what AS is trying to label it as, and that's not a good thing.
I don't think labeling anime as gratuitously violent and "adult" is a good thing either. In fact I hate it when people conclude that all anime is-- quoting Ed Liu from his Anime: Drawing A Revolution review, "big, dumb, incredibly violent action". I don't like to stick labels onto anything really, but hey, I rather have anime being associated as "endless babble" a.k.a. shows that don't insult your intelligence than "adult and violent".

But then I looked at your profile and saw "80's tough guy anime". And that, my good sir, probably explains why we have a conflict in interest. ;)

[Scirel]

But see, IY was successful for AS. Its one of the few anime series to consistent high ratings. The final episodes that AS aired over two weeks(with no promotion except for a black and white bump) did really well. I believe the first week had like 600,000 18-34 viewers, while the second week, it was a little over 450,000 18-34 viewers.


And yet, AS returned the favor of these high ratings by consistenly bashing its audience. THAT is the start of the trouble.

Golden rule of TV: People who watch your show are your Friends. You make fun of the ALTERNATIVE programming, not yours.

With all the bashing, it wouldn`t be far for some viewers to assume that Anime was forced upon AS, even though we know this isn`t true. When else does a network bash it's own show/audience?

[Beat]

I don't think labeling anime as gratuitously violent and "adult" is a good thing either. In fact I hate it when people conclude that all anime is-- quoting Ed Liu from his Anime: Drawing A Revolution review, "big, dumb, incredibly violent action". I don't like to stick labels onto anything really, but hey, I rather have anime being associated as "endless babble" a.k.a. shows that don't insult your intelligence than "adult and violent".

But then I looked at your profile and saw "80's tough guy anime". And that, my good sir, probably explains why we have a conflict in interest. ;)

I actually went and updated that. and you're right, we have a conflict of interest, because I don't want the shows labeled as BORING. Endless babble isn't labeled as not insulting your intelligence, it equals boring and dull. And if that's the standard, then no one will watch.

[MegaJ]

S-cry-ed was pretty action packed and I thought that was dull and generic. YMMV.

[HG Revolution]

I actually went and updated that. and you're right, we have a conflict of interest, because I don't want the shows labeled as BORING. Endless babble isn't labeled as not insulting your intelligence, it equals boring and dull. And if that's the standard, then no one will watch.

Inu-Yasha defines boring (OK, the first season was pretty exciting, but who could still find the show interesting by the final episode?). Death Note and Paranoia Agent aren't boring. Paranoia Agent may be too weird and arty for most people, and Death Note may be too heavy for late-night viewing, but of all the things you can accuse those shows of being, "boring" isn't one of them.

[Scirel]

Wolf's rain and WHR killed it for ultra-serious shows. I still remember one ep of WHR was nothing but people watching TV cameras of a restauraunt.

GITS only did well because of name recognition from the movie.

ASA- Adult swim action or Adult swim anime?

Whichever one you think is true determines your POV on the subject.


My solution= Air Haruhi on AS. :evil:

[Mugen]

Inu-Yasha defines boring (OK, the first season was pretty exciting, but who could still find the show interesting by the final episode?).

Apparently enough people did.

[jbanks97]

The abuse and dissolution of the IY fandom was the biggest fault they had. Considering how whenever someone procalims they like Tim and Eric, a lameass "Great Job!" pun follows, they would have wise to take the audience from that show and run with it to the endzone.

We all know WS liked Lupin III, so when Lupin failed thanks to IY, I think WS got mad and took it out on the fans.

Assuming just for the sake of argument your theory is true.

This would also assume that Anime from 2001-2003ish brought in TONS of viewers. This would also assume that ALL of these viewers got as upset as you did about a stupid remark about the Inuyasha fan base. The massive amount of ratings that anime brought then dried up to a trickle from 2003-2008.

You can blame anime's failure on many things, (show quality being the one I probably agree the most with), but hurt feelings over cards just isn't one of them. (Unless you can somehow prove the 2002 lineup regularly brought in 500,000+ ratings)

***And just for the record

I'm about the least otaku regular poster on these boards, and my opinion counts for about 0 in the scheme of things,
Anime's I've hated- Eureka 7, Wolf's Rain, Witch Hunter Robin, Most of Samauri Champloo, most of Inuyasha, and S-Cry-Ed
Anime's I've loved- Bebop, Trigun, Full Metal, Paranoia Agent, and now death note

The only consistent-I've like shows I thought were quality. I've hated shows I thought were crap. Shows with more violence don't interest me if they suck, just as shows with more dialogue don't interest me if their boring. You can't use your own perceptions about what's good and not and assume everyone feels the same way

[Lutochris]

While I don't think that the cards bashing anime were the sole reason for ratings decline, it no doubt contributed. I don't think any sensible person would actually take one of those cards seriously and stop watching anime because of it, but what it did do, over time, was implant the subconscious notion in our collective minds that "anime is uncool". When they stop all positive promotion for anime, and all any casual viewer sees with regards to it outside Saturdays are snide remarks by the network itself about how anime fans are geeks, anime sucks, etc, how is that casual viewer going to feel about anime in the long run? It really makes me sad when I think about the ultra-cool looking and sounding promos they regularly aired for stuff like Bebop, Trigun, GITS, and FMA, and today all we get is more snide remarks.

Basically, Family Guy and Robot Chicken are collectively seen as "cool", and AS can take a lot of credit for that. Anime is collectively seen as "uncool", and AS is almost totally to blame for that.

It has NOTHING to do with "endless babbling" shows. Beat, did you ever actually see Paranoia Agent or Eureka 7? There's FAR, FAR more talking and long exposition in GITS than in Death Note, PA, and Eureka 7 combined. And really, all three of those shows are about on par with FMA in terms of exposition. Did you see that crappy OVA "Psychic Wars" on Sci-Fi this past Monday? There was very little talking and tons of action and fanservice. Do you really think people would rather watch a series like that than Death Note?

[livingfruitvirus]

Apparently enough people did.

Over 600,000 people 18-34 according to the cards. Many here may find it tiresome or boring, but all those annoying fans are putting money into Viz's pockets and helping keep them afloat, allowing them to acquire shows like Death Note and Monster.

On a different subject, did anyone notice the card saying Weidenfeld is gone? He was the head of development. So now what kind of shows are going to be greenlit?

[jbanks97]

While I don't think that the cards bashing anime were the sole reason for ratings decline, it no doubt contributed. I don't think any sensible person would actually take one of those cards seriously and stop watching anime because of it, but what it did do, over time, was implant the subconscious notion in our collective minds that "anime is uncool". When they stop all positive promotion for anime, and all any casual viewer sees with regards to it outside Saturdays are snide remarks by the network itself about how anime fans are geeks, anime sucks, etc, how is that casual viewer going to feel about anime in the long run? It really makes me sad when I think about the ultra-cool looking and sounding promos they regularly aired for stuff like Bebop, Trigun, GITS, and FMA, and today all we get is more snide remarks.



I think the perception that AS made snide remarks has always been WAY WAYY more overblown than the reality. If memory serves the only show thats ever been an issue has been Inuyasha, and the ONLY thing they ever mocked were the hyperactive sub-18 fan base that posts constantly at the AS message board. (If memory serves the same fan base has been mocked here quite a few times).

The only other "insults" were "anime is the suck", (which was meant to be mocking the AS poster who said that), and maybe compaining about how little the ratings are. On the other hand they've also heaped tons of praise on Bebop, Lupin, FMA, Astroboy!, and other shows.

What about the fact that they continued to show anime nightly for almost SEVEN YEARS despite the fact anime drew less than half the 18-34 ratings a comparable comedy show would? They were the most popular 18-34 network for most of this time period, what other network would waste hours of schedule for something that underperforming? Don't actions speak louder than words?


**Anime was, is, and probably always will be a niche market. Niche market shows are fine with other niche market shows like Home movies. Once Futurama/Family guy was added and the ratings skyrocketed there just wasn't a place anymore for something so niche (Which sucks because it makes the schedule duller in the process, but that's the business)

[Beat]

Depends on who their new head of development is.

While I don't think that the cards bashing anime were the sole reason for ratings decline, it no doubt contributed. I don't think any sensible person would actually take one of those cards seriously and stop watching anime because of it, but what it did do, over time, was implant the subconscious notion in our collective minds that "anime is uncool". When they stop all positive promotion for anime, and all any casual viewer sees with regards to it outside Saturdays are snide remarks by the network itself about how anime fans are geeks, anime sucks, etc, how is that casual viewer going to feel about anime in the long run? It really makes me sad when I think about the ultra-cool looking and sounding promos they regularly aired for stuff like Bebop, Trigun, GITS, and FMA, and today all we get is more snide remarks.

Basically, Family Guy and Robot Chicken are collectively seen as "cool", and AS can take a lot of credit for that. Anime is collectively seen as "uncool", and AS is almost totally to blame for that.


Very true. Adult Swim is to blame for it, but that's how they wanted to market it. Then you get other networks saying "Our stuff IS cool" and the response to it changes quite a bit.

[Lightning Tiger]

S-cry-ed was pretty action packed and I thought that was dull and generic. YMMV.

i thought S-Cry-Ed was realy cool, i watched episode 3 like a thousand times.

[blitzkrieg]

While I don't think that the cards bashing anime were the sole reason for ratings decline, it no doubt contributed. I don't think any sensible person would actually take one of those cards seriously and stop watching anime because of it, but what it did do, over time, was implant the subconscious notion in our collective minds that "anime is uncool". When they stop all positive promotion for anime, and all any casual viewer sees with regards to it outside Saturdays are snide remarks by the network itself about how anime fans are geeks, anime sucks, etc, how is that casual viewer going to feel about anime in the long run? It really makes me sad when I think about the ultra-cool looking and sounding promos they regularly aired for stuff like Bebop, Trigun, GITS, and FMA, and today all we get is more snide remarks.

Basically, Family Guy and Robot Chicken are collectively seen as "cool", and AS can take a lot of credit for that. Anime is collectively seen as "uncool", and AS is almost totally to blame for that.

Anime has always been uncool. Anime has always been nerdy and geeky. AS didn't make it nerdy and geeky.

And if anything, they've done a lot more for anime in America by broadcasting it on a regular basis and showing a diverse selection and some highly popular shows.

If anyone needs to be blamed for anime being uncool it should be the anime companies themselves, both here and in Japan, and anime fans themselves.

[Master Moron]

Someone liked it, considering how well it did, the fact that the DVD and album sold well, and that a sequel was commissioned. I think Afro, and this is a point I may have repeated and I'm sorry if I have, is not the type of show that appeals to the otaku audience, the one that likes Death Note and Paranoia Agent. And that's GOOD. That's a good thing. It brings in a new, fresh audience, probably more consistent with Spike's UFC watching males than ASA's nonexistent one.

I think what we should learn from Afro Samurai is how to market anime. SpikeTV never advertised Afro Samurai as anime. That advertised it as a kick ass action show. Adult Swim just lumps all their anime together and expects people to watch it. They need to try to get people to watch the shows individually.

Some of the Death Note fans I know aren't even otakus. My dad hardly ever read comics or watches anime and with one exception NEVER reads manga. That exception is Death Note.

I've said before that if Death Note was a live action show on NBC it would get great ratings and a lot of press. But, because it's on in the middle of the night on Adult Swim no one even knows it exists. The fact that it's animated probably doesn't help too much, but Beat seems to insist that it's the content of Death Note that turns off viewers. That's just crap. Look how many "talky" crime shows air on CBS. Those shows get millions of viewers.

That's as bad as bashing a show. You flat out admit that you put a show that can't draw into a struggling block? Isn't that suicidal as far as ratings?

Paranoia Agent was only 13 episodes, though. One 13 episode show can't kill a block.

Way back when, when people thought anime, they thought of Akira, Ninja Scroll, Robotech, shows with a lot of action and were more adult than your average Saturday morning fare. NOT a lot of endless babble. That's what AS is trying to label it as, and that's not a good thing.

Actually, most people still think of Dragonball Z when they think of anime. I don't think I've ever heard someone who believes that all anime is endless babble. Shows like Paranoia Agent and Eureka 7 are not household names.

Assuming just for the sake of argument your theory is true.

This would also assume that Anime from 2001-2003ish brought in TONS of viewers. This would also assume that ALL of these viewers got as upset as you did about a stupid remark about the Inuyasha fan base. The massive amount of ratings that anime brought then dried up to a trickle from 2003-2008.


It has nothing to do with anime fans reaction to the cards, it has to do with casual fans. If someone is watching Family Guy and they see a card that bashes anime, why would that entice them to watch it? I mean, if you were watching Grey's Anatomy on ABC and ABC aired a promo that basically told you Lost sucks, would you stick around if you weren't already a Lost fan? Probably not. I mean, why would you want to watch a show if the network that airs it admits it sucks.

Anime has always been uncool. Anime has always been nerdy and geeky. AS didn't make it nerdy and geeky.


Ehhh...not really. During college I actually knew a bunch of guys who got together to watch Dragonball Z. And these guys were not typical nerd types. Most of them were frat guys. One guy even claimed to like having sex while watching Dragonball Z. Though, I really don't think Adult Swim can be blamed for the reputation of anime fan's perceived dorkiness. I think the fans themselves can be blamed for that.

[RomanMack]

Yeah, that is pretty true. Most of the anime fanbase shows its geeky side, and that will always be ridiculed.

[Beat]

I think what we should learn from Afro Samurai is how to market anime. SpikeTV never advertised Afro Samurai as anime. That advertised it as a kick ass action show. Adult Swim just lumps all their anime together and expects people to watch it. They need to try to get people to watch the shows individually.

This is true. They didn't lump Afro into one group of shows and then isolated said shows from the entire channel. They advertised the good parts of the episode, then said watch it after UFC or TNA or whatever was on the night before. And people did! Who'd have thought it, treating your shows as a unique, entertaining program would entice people to watch it?

I've said before that if Death Note was a live action show on NBC it would get great ratings and a lot of press. But, because it's on in the middle of the night on Adult Swim no one even knows it exists. The fact that it's animated probably doesn't help too much, but Beat seems to insist that it's the content of Death Note that turns off viewers. That's just crap. Look how many "talky" crime shows air on CBS. Those shows get millions of viewers.

If you mean shows like CSI and Law and Order, then I agree halfway and disagree halfway. Death Note would make a wonderful movie, but animation for the most part, does not, and LFV made this point earlier, lend itself to what can be done in live action easily. That's why King of the Hill has never had the same success as Family Guy or Simpsons.

Death Note would make a wonderful Hollywood movie though. I think a talented director could weed through the dull and mundane and get to the heart of the story, a teenage genius attempting to change the world through murder, his descent into madness, and the brilliant detective charged with stopping him.

Paranoia Agent was only 13 episodes, though. One 13 episode show can't kill a block.

13 weeks is a long time. And when you air more boring shows after it, you create a snowball effect of expectations.



Actually, most people still think of Dragonball Z when they think of anime. I don't think I've ever heard someone who believes that all anime is endless babble. Shows like Paranoia Agent and Eureka 7 are not household names.

This is a good thing. However, it is what the average viewer expects when viewing ASA (Adult Swim anime, since the action portion has apparently gone away a while ago).


It has nothing to do with anime fans reaction to the cards, it has to do with casual fans. If someone is watching Family Guy and they see a card that bashes anime, why would that entice them to watch it? I mean, if you were watching Grey's Anatomy on ABC and ABC aired a promo that basically told you Lost sucks, would you stick around if you weren't already a Lost fan? Probably not. I mean, why would you want to watch a show if the network that airs it admits it sucks.

True once again. Sci-Fi didn't have ECW making fun of Ani-Monday, now did it?


Ehhh...not really. During college I actually knew a bunch of guys who got together to watch Dragonball Z. And these guys were not typical nerd types. Most of them were frat guys. One guy even claimed to like having sex while watching Dragonball Z. Though, I really don't think Adult Swim can be blamed for the reputation of anime fan's perceived dorkiness. I think the fans themselves can be blamed for that.

I have a similar story of a roomate that was a pretty cool guy, but he watched Inuyasha every night. You see, if you can show the program as something exciting, normal people will come.

Screw the hardcore dorks. Really, they don't matter. They shouldn't matter since time and time again they've been shown to show loyalty to a show over a block. Getting a show that 100,000 dorks will watch isn't a good thing, it's a niche thing. Getting Bleach, showing the pretty colors, big...everything, and blood gysers will attract a casual audience for the same reason people liked DBZ. It's loud, obnoxious fun. Getting a Death Note as a slow paced thriller can possibly good balance to that, but you can't pretend the show doesn't exist, bash its fandom week in and week out, etc, etc. And a show like Paranoia Agent or Eureka 7 has no place on a block at all. Not on one like Adult Swim.

[macattack]

Lay off Eureka 7. It had a lot of action-packed moments, a layered story, and characters with diverse personalities. The final episode single-handedly made the ups and downs of the first 49 episodes worth it in the end, which not every anime (Blood+, anyone?) has done for me.

Yes, it was a SatAM show in Japan, but so was Gurren Lagann, which many people say would be better suited for Adult Swim.

[Duelist]

Regardless of all this, the fact that they haven't promoted Code Geass at all, is god damn obnoxious.

[HG Revolution]

Lay off Eureka 7. It had a lot of action-packed moments, a layered story, and characters with diverse personalities. The final episode single-handedly made the ups and downs of the first 49 episodes worth it in the end, which not every anime (Blood+, anyone?) has done for me.

Still, who outside of anime fans desperate for something to watch/believe the hype would even get to this supposedly awesome final episode if not only the first episode, but the first six or so episodes are really bad? I gave it chances, but it consistently failed me.

Paranoia Agent, on the other hand, had me interested already in the premiere and by episode three, I was completely hooked. It ended up being one of my favorite shows ever. Satoshi Kon does have a following (over 120,000 people bought tickets to Paprika, and while that number is small, keep in mind it was only in 27 theaters rather than a national TV network), so it's understandable why Adult Swim wanted the show. It was, however, victim to their first true advertising screw-up (not a single ad until the Tuesday before it aired, plus it had to deal with the effects of a line-up already damaged by lack of Futurama).

[bigdeath]

Still, who outside of anime fans desperate for something to watch/believe the hype would even get to this supposedly awesome final episode if not only the first episode, but the first six or so episodes are really bad? I gave it chances, but it consistently failed me.

Thats amussing since plenty of others enjoy the first few episodes of Eureka 7. Prehaps Eureka 7 doesn't get non-anime fans intrested in it but really, not ever anime show has to spread the word of how great anime is. So some anime can and will be just entertaining to anime fans and theres nothing wrong with that. Besides, its Eureka 7 storytelling style that turns you off to it; the first few episodes got me and plenty of others hooked on the show.

[HG Revolution]

Thats amussing since plenty of others enjoy the first few episodes of Eureka 7. Prehaps Eureka 7 doesn't get non-anime fans intrested in it but really, not ever anime show has to spread the word of how great anime is. So some anime can and will be just entertaining to anime fans and theres nothing wrong with that. Besides, its Eureka 7 storytelling style that turns you off to it; the first few episodes got me and plenty of others hooked on the show.

I am a very big anime fan. I just hated what I saw of Eureka 7. I mean, plenty of mecha shows have had angsty protagonists, but only Renton is so flat and annoying that his catchphrase is "This suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks!"

[MegaJ]

Anime has always been uncool. Anime has always been nerdy and geeky. AS didn't make it nerdy and geeky.

So AS should foster that image instead of changing it, or at least making their shows seem unique?

And a show like Paranoia Agent or Eureka 7 has no place on a block at all. Not on one like Adult Swim.

Completely disagree. As I said before, you always want diversity on the network and E7 definitely fits the action part of ASA. It's not my favorite series, but as someone said upthread that it isn't as exposition-heavy as say, Death Note or PA. It has bright colors (the mecha surf on neon trapper waves!), decent mech fights, and an anime staple,...mecha. As for PA, you said...

13 weeks is a long time. And when you air more boring shows after it, you create a snowball effect of expectations.

IIRC, PA aired after the actiony shows and then got shafted to after 1am. No way that show killed the block, no freaking way. And while I don't like E7, I definetely wouldn't say that show is boring for the most part and I understand AS's decision to pick it up (mecha, bright colors, EVA-esque). Death Note has a lot of buzz behind it (I think it came in first place one Saturday night, with almost 400,000 or 500,000 viewers but that doesn't mean much since the ratings are erratic).

But why am I arguing? "Boring" is subjective. This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I find Naruto (action-packed show) boring for the most part and DBZ completely fell apart after the Cell saga (and those episodes afterwards had a lot of action) so...yeah.

[Beat]

So AS should foster that image instead of changing it, or at least making their shows seem unique?

Well apparently it's fun for them and if we disagree we're prudes, geeks, or both.



Completely disagree. As I said before, you always want diversity on the network and E7 definitely fits the action part of ASA. It's not my favorite series, but as someone said upthread that it isn't as exposition-heavy as say, Death Note or PA. It has bright colors (the mecha surf on neon trapper waves!), decent mech fights, and an anime staple,...mecha. As for PA, you said...

No, Eureka doesn't fit the action part because nothing happens for 10 episodes. Mecha is subjective since we have super robot shows, real robot shows, and the newest craze, emo-robot shows. New Getter Robo got more done in 10 episodes than Eureka 7 did in 30, but one was a 13 episode series, one was a 52 episode one. (I think Getter Robo would have done better just because of how much was going on at once)

Simply put, if a show is only airing once a week, it needs to hook its audience quickly and effectively. Renton going on and on about how much his life sucks has the opposite effect. If it was airing Mon-Thur, it might have had 4 chances to hook the audience.



IIRC, PA aired after the actiony shows and then got shafted to after 1am. No way that show killed the block, no freaking way. And while I don't like E7, I definetely wouldn't say that show is boring for the most part and I understand AS's decision to pick it up (mecha, bright colors, EVA-esque). Death Note has a lot of buzz behind it (I think it came in first place one Saturday night, with almost 400,000 or 500,000 viewers but that doesn't mean much since the ratings are erratic).

It didn't outright kill the block. Had it started at 11:00, it would have. But what it did do was start a disturbing trend of the types of shows they gravitated towards.

Death Note's ratings for its premiere were for one reason. Ironically, the lack of advertising had a lot of people thinking Bleach was going to air. So they saw the episode of DN, hated it, and fled.

But why am I arguing? "Boring" is subjective. This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I find Naruto (action-packed show) boring for the most part and DBZ completely fell apart after the Cell saga (and those episodes afterwards had a lot of action) so...yeah.

Yeah, boring is subjective. But most people find shows like Paranoia Agent, like Eureka with the Renton emoness, and like Death Note, boring. These are viewer trends.

[HG Revolution]

But what it did do was start a disturbing trend of the types of shows they gravitated towards.

Really? Witch Hunter Robin and Wolf's Rain were slower than PA, more boring than PA, and overall worse than PA. Compared to those shows, Paranoia Agent is pure gold (though I'd say it's gold in general).

[Beat]

Really? Witch Hunter Robin and Wolf's Rain were slower than PA, more boring than PA, and overall worse than PA.

Agreed. And they were failures as well.

[jbanks97]

Agreed. And they were failures as well.

And they also came and went before Paranoia Agent and somehow the block survived then.....

What about the fact that Paranoia Agent was always scheduled after Samaurai Champloo? (I dont' remember 'ploo ever being a big ratings success itself either) What about the fact that when Paranoia agent premiered they tried taking futurama off saturdays? (Considering Futurama is the only way Saturday has ever been succesful in the 4 or so years of Anime saturdays)

[Beat]

And they also came and went before Paranoia Agent and somehow the block survived then.....

What about the fact that Paranoia Agent was always scheduled after Samaurai Champloo? (I dont' remember 'ploo ever being a big ratings success itself either) What about the fact that when Paranoia agent premiered they tried taking futurama off saturdays? (Considering Futurama is the only way Saturday has ever been succesful in the 4 or so years of Anime saturdays)

Paranoia Agent aired after Scryed. They were reviewed in Entertainment Weekly where Scryed got a B and Paranoia a B-. (Adult Swim posted a card handily agreeing with the ratings, and I can tell you right now, if EW gave Squidbilies a B-, Williams Street would bash them all day and all night)

[jbanks97]

Paranoia Agent aired after Scryed. They were reviewed in Entertainment Weekly where Scryed got a B and Paranoia a B-. (Adult Swim posted a card handily agreeing with the ratings, and I can tell you right now, if EW gave Squidbilies a B-, Williams Street would bash them all day and all night)


Uhh....No it didn't (At least at first)
http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=139860&highlight=Schedule

but even if it did, my point is still entirely the same
Champloo=Action Show
Scryed=Action Show
One of the two should have brought in ratings according to your general theory of action=better. (Considering the schedule at the time had 3 action premieres a night, Paranoia Agent's failure shouldn't have made a dent in overall ratings).

What about Kikaider? They aired this at 12! way back in 2003, and if anything it failed even harder than PA. Why didn't Kikaider kill the anime blck?

(And you've got to be kidding me if you really believe agreeing with a B or B- rating= bashing a show.....I'm pretty sure they'd probably be thrilled if squidbillies got any press at all.)

[MegaJ]

Speaking of PA...was it even a huge failure? I remember it charting somewhat often in the Top 3 on the Saturdays ratings bumps. What kind of numbers was it bringing in?

It didn't outright kill the block. Had it started at 11:00, it would have. But what it did do was start a disturbing trend of the types of shows they gravitated towards.

Paranoia Agent is nothing like the shows you cite as the cancer killing ASA or boring. There was no real fighting or action sequences at all (besides the awesome fifth episode), and the fact you only name two shows that premiere after PA just doesn't really support your theory.

The only show that I could probably say that might have ruined the perception of ASA was Witch Hunter Robin, that show was just very, very slow and didn't have enough oomph and that would've been fine if it were well insulated but I think that WHR (at the time) the only show with premieres during M-Th which might have turned some heads away.

[D Dubbs]

I am a very big anime fan. I just hated what I saw of Eureka 7. I mean, plenty of mecha shows have had angsty protagonists, but only Renton is so flat and annoying that his catchphrase is "This suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks!"

Well, he only uses that for the 1st episode. :sweat:

And I agree that it would've been extremely annoying if he did stay immature and emo, but any teenager goes through that kind of thing at one point or another, so it didn't really bother me.

I have to say the greatest part of Eureka Seven is the character development. Yes, Renton's initial personality was a bit obnoxious but it was quite a treat to watch how he grew into an adult, not to mention how he changed the lives of others around him. The ending is great and all, but it's really the rest of the series that makes it so fulfilling.

[Beat]

Well, he only uses that for the 1st episode. :sweat:

And I agree that it would've been extremely annoying if he did stay immature and emo, but any teenager goes through that kind of thing at one point or another, so it didn't really bother me.

The American audience, as shown time and time again, doesn't really like the whiny lead. At least, it doesn't like the whiny lead over and over again.

[macattack]

You forget that Renton eventually got over his whiny-ness.

Edit: It looks like the current ASMB board gimmick is popular, it seems nearly everybody is using some type of CG ranking. Maybe the show will be a hit after all (wishful thinking).

[Demonic Raven]

Edit: It looks like the current ASMB board gimmick is popular, it seems nearly everybody is using some type of CG ranking. Maybe the show will be a hit after all (wishful thinking). Not everyone there is in Adult Swim's age range. Actually, I think ASMB has mostly teenagers.

[D Dubbs]

The American audience, as shown time and time again, doesn't really like the whiny lead. At least, it doesn't like the whiny lead over and over again.

Which is fine with me. I don't base my likes and dislikes of TV shows on how well the American audience receives them.

[livingfruitvirus]

Speaking of PA...was it even a huge failure? I remember it charting somewhat often in the Top 3 on the Saturdays ratings bumps. What kind of numbers was it bringing in?

I wouldn't really use such judgment on PA. I mean, if it was a success, it still would've ended at 13 episodes. FLCL was a success, but the same outcome occurred. It ended, and that was all.

[ChibiGoku]

Well, that was... Interesting. Not sure if anyone else is getting this ad, but for some reason, I keep getting a Little Mermaid ad during Adult Swim's commercials breaks. It's basically one of those "Keep the Environment Clean".

[Master Moron]

Lay off Eureka 7. It had a lot of action-packed moments, a layered story, and characters with diverse personalities. The final episode single-handedly made the ups and downs of the first 49 episodes worth it in the end, which not every anime (Blood+, anyone?) has done for me.


They had a few well animated mecha fights, but if people watched Eureka 7 for action, I think they'd be severely dissappointed. The layered story was part of the problem. It had too many layers. It was even more complicated than Evangelion. I'm all for shows that make you use your brain, but when you can't explain the plot without making the audience fall asleep, there's a problem. As for the characters with diverse personalities, I have to disagree. Most of the crew members of the Gecko State have pretty interchangeable personalities. Very few of them are actually developed enough for the audience to care about them.

Thats amussing since plenty of others enjoy the first few episodes of Eureka 7. Prehaps Eureka 7 doesn't get non-anime fans intrested in it but really, not ever anime show has to spread the word of how great anime is. So some anime can and will be just entertaining to anime fans and theres nothing wrong with that. Besides, its Eureka 7 storytelling style that turns you off to it; the first few episodes got me and plenty of others hooked on the show.

This forum is filled with anime fans, and the general reaction seemed to have been general dislike of the show until about halfway through.

You forget that Renton eventually got over his whiny-ness.


And why should anybody have to sit through 26 episodes of crap to see it? It doesn't help that none of the characters are really interesting. I suppose Eureka is kind of interesting if you like those Rei Ayanami types. But, Holland is a jerk, Talho is the meanest prostitute I've ever seen, and most of the other Gecko state members are just forgettable. I mean Gidget, Mathew, the guy who never opens his eyes, the crack head, the muscular chick, Stoner, the doctor, they're all just dull. Most of them barely have personalities.

[D Dubbs]

They had a few well animated mecha fights, but if people watched Eureka 7 for action, I think they'd be severely dissappointed. The layered story was part of the problem. It had too many layers. It was even more complicated than Evangelion. I'm all for shows that make you use your brain, but when you can't explain the plot without making the audience fall asleep, there's a problem.

I generally agree with this, since I do think the main reason Eureka Seven failed was because it was hyped up to be an intense, action-packed mecha series, when it was really more about character relationships and humanistic themes. Though, I never found the story to be so complex that I would fall asleep.

And why should anybody have to sit through 26 episodes of crap to see it? It doesn't help that none of the characters are really interesting. I suppose Eureka is kind of interesting if you like those Rei Ayanami types. But, Holland is a jerk, Talho is the meanest prostitute I've ever seen, and most of the other Gecko state members are just forgettable. I mean Gidget, Mathew, the guy who never opens his eyes, the crack head, the muscular chick, Stoner, the doctor, they're all just dull. Most of them barely have personalities.

Again, I partially agree. Outside of Eureka, Holland, Talho, Matthieu, and Eureka's kids, not a lot of time was spent developing the other members of the Gekkostate. However, there were enough engaging characters outside the Gekko that made up for that, like Anemone, Dominic, Charles & Ray Beams, and Axel (Renton's grandpa), just to name a view.

[Master Moron]

I generally agree with this, since I do think the main reason Eureka Seven failed was because it was hyped up to be an intense, action-packed mecha series, when it was really more about character relationships and humanistic themes. Though, I never found the story to be so complex that I would fall asleep.



Again, I partially agree. Outside of Eureka, Holland, Talho, Matthieu, and Eureka's kids, not a lot of time was spent developing the other members of the Gekkostate. However, there were enough engaging characters outside the Gekko that made up for that, like Anemone, Dominic, Charles & Ray Beams, and Axel (Renton's grandpa), just to name a view.



Dominic I'll agree was rather interesting, but Anemone really didn't start to develop into more than a psycho ***** until near the end of the series. Charles and Ray were interesting, but they were only in a few episodes. I didn't find anything interesting about Axel. I'm glad you mentioned Eureka's kids, because I forgot to mention those brats in my last post. They have to be the most annoying kids in any anime ever. I really wish Eureka blew them away with her machine gun when she first met them. Sure, they behave a little better as the series goes on, but I doubt any adults want to watch a bunch of bratty kids for 40+ episodes.

[Lutochris]

While it's true that anime fans have always been geeks, I don't think there was a general perception of that before. Prior to DBZ and Gundam Wing, nobody even knew what anime was. When AS started showing Bebop, they advertised it as the coolest thing ever made - an action-packed show with badass bounty hunters in space. Like Master Moron said, I knew tons of people who loved the show in college, including frat guys and athletes who you typically wouldn't think would want to be associated with something "geeky".

AS built off of Bebop's success and brought us Trigun, FLCL, FMA, GITS, Champloo, and a few other shows that they promoted as being "cool" and which enjoyed pretty good to moderate success. I'd say it probably all hit a peak around 2003 when the Animatrix was released in the wake of Matrix Reloaded, followed shortly after by Kill Bill with it's anime scenes.

Anime was pretty visible to the mainstream at this point, but I don't think there was a general perception of anime being a "geeks only" realm back then. Or if it was, then it was seen as something for "cool geeks", much like Star Wars. Even though most people would think of Star Wars fans as geeks, I don't know too many non-geeks who would be embarrassed to admit they like Star Wars. Back then, the same was true of most anime (at least the popular stuff like Bebop and such).

The whole "anime geek" perception didn't really start to turn negative until around 2005-2006, which coincidentally was about the time AS started turning the bumps from the jovial towards the condescending. Way back, AS used to make fun of anime fans, but they did it in a good natured way, and always capped it off with something to let the viewer know that they too were anime geeks and didn't care, which is cool. But gradually they stopped using the "us" part, and started referring to anime geeks as "they". All of the sudden, anime was something for "those geeks over there, which we want no part of". Even though most of us could logically conclude that this wasn't how AS truly felt (obviously not, otherwise why would they still show anime), like I said before, it slowly starts to seep into the collective subconsciousness. At this point now, anime is no longer something that anyone can geek-out over without fear of embarrassment (like Star Wars), but rather, it's something now reserved only for the hard-core nerds (like Magic cards or D&D). While I don't think they're solely responsible, I think AS shares a lot of blame for this change in perception.

Interestingly enough, Spike and Scifi have shown that it doesn't still have to be like this. Like was said earlier, Spike advertised Afro-Samurai as a super-cool action show, and it worked. Very similar to the way AS used to promote Bebop, huh? And when I look at the "Ani-Monday" bumps that Scifi uses, I'm reminded of some of the older bumps AS used to use to promote anime. While they may be making fun of anime with the bumps, it's done in such a way that's funny and endearing, not condescending and off-putting like AS does now. AS used to make fun of Inuyasha and some other stuff in the same way a lot. Is it just a coincidence that Afro-Samurai and Ani-Monday succeed where AS anime fails?

[Beat]

While it's true that anime fans have always been geeks, I don't think there was a general perception of that before. Prior to DBZ and Gundam Wing, nobody even knew what anime was. When AS started showing Bebop, they advertised it as the coolest thing ever made - an action-packed show with badass bounty hunters in space. Like Master Moron said, I knew tons of people who loved the show in college, including frat guys and athletes who you typically wouldn't think would want to be associated with something "geeky".

AS built off of Bebop's success and brought us Trigun, FLCL, FMA, GITS, Champloo, and a few other shows that they promoted as being "cool" and which enjoyed pretty good to moderate success. I'd say it probably all hit a peak around 2003 when the Animatrix was released in the wake of Matrix Reloaded, followed shortly after by Kill Bill with it's anime scenes.

Anime was pretty visible to the mainstream at this point, but I don't think there was a general perception of anime being a "geeks only" realm back then. Or if it was, then it was seen as something for "cool geeks", much like Star Wars. Even though most people would think of Star Wars fans as geeks, I don't know too many non-geeks who would be embarrassed to admit they like Star Wars. Back then, the same was true of most anime (at least the popular stuff like Bebop and such).

The whole "anime geek" perception didn't really start to turn negative until around 2005-2006, which coincidentally was about the time AS started turning the bumps from the jovial towards the condescending. Way back, AS used to make fun of anime fans, but they did it in a good natured way, and always capped it off with something to let the viewer know that they too were anime geeks and didn't care, which is cool. But gradually they stopped using the "us" part, and started referring to anime geeks as "they". All of the sudden, anime was something for "those geeks over there, which we want no part of". Even though most of us could logically conclude that this wasn't how AS truly felt (obviously not, otherwise why would they still show anime), like I said before, it slowly starts to seep into the collective subconsciousness. At this point now, anime is no longer something that anyone can geek-out over without fear of embarrassment (like Star Wars), but rather, it's something now reserved only for the hard-core nerds (like Magic cards or D&D). While I don't think they're solely responsible, I think AS shares a lot of blame for this change in perception.

Interestingly enough, Spike and Scifi have shown that it doesn't still have to be like this. Like was said earlier, Spike advertised Afro-Samurai as a super-cool action show, and it worked. Very similar to the way AS used to promote Bebop, huh? And when I look at the "Ani-Monday" bumps that Scifi uses, I'm reminded of some of the older bumps AS used to use to promote anime. While they may be making fun of anime with the bumps, it's done in such a way that's funny and endearing, not condescending and off-putting like AS does now. AS used to make fun of Inuyasha and some other stuff in the same way a lot. Is it just a coincidence that Afro-Samurai and Ani-Monday succeed where AS anime fails?

You know, I think that sums up the way I've felt for a long time. Kudos to you good sir.

My thing is of course,l that they'd never ever think of doing this to the comedy shows. The second someone even thinks of bashing a comedy show, Williams Street bumps go on and on about how awesome they are and how much the comedy shows kick ass. Tim and Eric get bashed? AS spends months and months defending them. Anime gets bashed? Williams Street joins in.

[Mugen]

My thing is of course,l that they'd never ever think of doing this to the comedy shows. The second someone even thinks of bashing a comedy show, Williams Street bumps go on and on about how awesome they are and how much the comedy shows kick ass. Tim and Eric get bashed? AS spends months and months defending them. Anime gets bashed? Williams Street joins in.

Yet in a card last night, some viewer bashed AS because Fresh Air(an NPR show) praised Death Note. And AS defended the show, saying how ridiculous it is to bash something that is being praised.

[bigdeath]

Williams Street is sarcastic to the extreme. The fact that they continue to show anime, and they have shown a ton, its proof enough for me that they support anime.

[Beat]

It'd be easier if they laid into their own shows as well, if they go the ill-natured route. Lord knows there's a lot of jokes that could be made.

[jbanks97]

The whole "anime geek" perception didn't really start to turn negative until around 2005-2006, which coincidentally was about the time AS started turning the bumps from the jovial towards the condescending. Way back, AS used to make fun of anime fans, but they did it in a good natured way, and always capped it off with something to let the viewer know that they too were anime geeks and didn't care, which is cool. But gradually they stopped using the "us" part, and started referring to anime geeks as "they". All of the sudden, anime was something for "those geeks over there, which we want no part of".


That's certainly the popularl perception at this board.....but can you or anyone else provide one actual example of the offending cards that ruined the geek cred of anime? 2005 was when the FMA/GITS combo was getting the highest anime ratings ever-can you explain why they were trying to ruin something succesful? Furthermore how do you explain all of the cards where they've praised anime since then?

I'm not trying to call you or anyone else out-I would just like some examples to back up this theory that I obviously don't by at all. My take is that the geek cred of anime has remained exactly the same since 2001. The popularity of anime on AS is entirely dependent on the shows themselves and has nothing to do with the cards. (I'd be willing to bet half of the viewers don't pay attention to the cards anyways). Bebop FMA, GITS, and FLCL were successes because they had huge cross-overappeal with it's story and action. They just haven't shown anything since FMA finished that has had the same kind of mainstream appeal. That being said there were several shows that completely bombed pre 2005 (Kikaider, Blue Gender, the toonami holdovers), and there are shows since 2005 that bring in ratings (Bleach).

I just don't think the public perception of anime has changed that much period. There was never a time where it had mass acceptance, (the bebop movie didn't exactly clean up at the box office), and it's not thought of any worse now than it was 3 years ago.

(And beat........you've thought AS bashes anime since you've posted on this board)

[SSJPabs]

I think everyone is right.

Williams Street now seems to have negative feelings to anime and it's off-putting. They defend their comedy shows most of which are stupid and a few of which are not even animation (these are shows I have geek-rage against) and generally mock anime shows. If they don't like the shows then they shouldn't buy them. If they don't like the shows and buy them for ratings anyway, then they quite clearly are no experts in determining what will sell (Shin Chan, Super Milk Chan, Case Closed etc.). But anime was never as mainstream as some seem to think. Outside of the Pokemon/Jr. High set, it moved from being an obscure niche hobby to a niche hobby that people are aware exists, that is, the mainstream realized that it was out there, and as such you get the occasional cross-over. Which is, from what I understand, not too different from it's original intent. That said I think it IS worse now, because there are less cross-overs so it's the visibility itself is low. It's hard to deny that the time frame during Kill Bill, Bebop and Animatrix (2002-2004 and early 2005) was different in terms of popularity than today but it's the difference between a niche hobby under a spotlight, and a niche hobby in the dark. The fact that it's a niche hobby doesn't change.

But that's not really WS's fault, except that they continue to churn out both original shows that I don't like and anime shows that I don't like.

Then again, I think I'm starting to "grow out" of anime except for certain titles. Still I guess that I'm more in Beat's camp except that after the series passed on I reconsidered and liked it more.

[YTV]

:mad: Hey I know this isn't realated but I had to ask somw where. How do you post a new thread on here??? Usually it says "New Thread" or something but it doesn't any where on this page. Am I not aloud or something???

[SSJPabs]

I guess I was not a big fan of Paranoia Agent, WHR, or Eureka 7. I actually skipped the first 30 episodes and fell into again by accident. And Renton's voice? Terrible! But Eureka should not have been on the block, but that's because I don't think the setting is adult enough. I'm sure I'm in a minority on that.

To answer YTV's question:
http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee222/NotSamoflange/ANSWER1.jpg

[Beat]

I guess I was not a big fan of Paranoia Agent, WHR, or Eureka 7. I actually skipped the first 30 episodes and fell into again by accident. And Renton's voice? Terrible! But Eureka should not have been on the block, but that's because I don't think the setting is adult enough. I'm sure I'm in a minority on that.


I'll back you up on those. I realize I get A LOT of flack for disliking these shows, but I'm not the kind of person who goes to a show because everyone else likes it or hates it. Of course, unlike you, I never gave Eureka 7 a chance after the first episode. Having the main character go on and on about how much life sucks...

Well, there's a dead horse.

[bigdeath]

I guess I was not a big fan of Paranoia Agent, WHR, or Eureka 7. I actually skipped the first 30 episodes and fell into again by accident. And Renton's voice? Terrible! But Eureka should not have been on the block, but that's because I don't think the setting is adult enough. I'm sure I'm in a minority on that.

To answer YTV's question:
http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee222/NotSamoflange/ANSWER1.jpg


LOL, perfect. :D

I too have geek-rage against most of the comedy shows but why do you guys even care what WS thinks or says? I'm happy because they are airing death note, bleach, and Code Geass.

When they stop showing anime I'm intrested in then I'll just stop watching. Reminds me of all the bitter toonami fans. I just stopped watching when I was no longer interested in what they showed.

I don't understand this connection people have with a programing block. :sweat:

[Speedy Boris]

I don't understand this connection people have with a programing block. Bottom line, they want the block to be the best it can be, whether that means airing a lot of shows they like or reaching a wide audience (preferrably both). I suspect a little of it is nostalgia, too. How many "Remember Toonami's glory days?" and "Remember 'All Kids Out of the Pool'" posts have we seen?

Re: Eureka Seven. Strangely, looking back through the episode talkbacks that I participated in, I must've found -something- about the show that I liked. But eventually they moved the show to a later timeslot, and I must not have loved the show THAT much to want to stay up for it or tape it, as I stopped watching outside of the occasional episode here and there. So I have to wonder if I truly liked the show in the first place, or that I just feigned interest because... hey, what else was I gonna watch at 11? (or whenever it aired, I forget)