Live-Action on Cartoon Network: Where do you stand?

[danreyes1]

Really, I'm just trying to find out how most people feel about it.

I suppose it's inevitable, but I'll ask anyway: please, refrain from starting arguments about this. This is just information gathering.

And it's pretty easy to know how I feel.

[Movie06]

I saw it coming actually, there are always ways for networks to get themselves to stay alive.

[TheVofSteel]

They should change their name first, then it will be alright.

[Sketch]

I saw it coming actually, there are always ways for networks to get themselves to stay alive.

I really hate that mentality. Networks should be true to themselves. When has anything good come from a network grapsing at straws to adapt to the general flow of audiences?

Things sure didn't work out for the best with MTV, VH1 and G4...

[Dark Soul]

I have never seen CN this low in my life of watching it. Its really sad to see this happen but I guess all they want is fast ratings, money and cheap effort.

[The Wolverine]

I'm against bad live action.

If it's good, consider me a viewer.

[Pomegranate]

I really hate that mentality. Networks should be true to themselves. When has anything good come from a network grapsing at straws to adapt to the general flow of audiences?

Things sure didn't work out for the best with MTV, VH1 and G4...

Seconded! I would've really been fine with live-action on the network this thread is mainly about if it were named something like "Turner Family" or "BSCN(short for 'Betty Susan Cohen Network')" instead of "Cartoon Network" in the first place, but it's despicable that a network with "toon" as a part of its name is now airing and producing live-action programming for some quick ratings and cash instead of staying true to its brand name as it should be doing:sad: .

[The Wolverine]

but it's despicable that a network with "toon" as a part of its name is now airing and producing live-action programming for some quick ratings and cash instead of staying true to its brand name as it should be doing:sad: .

Except that nowadays, quick ratings and money decide if a network survives or not.

[Darklordavaitor]

If it's relevent to anything on the channel(ie, Scooby-Doo, Batman), I don't care. But Dumb and Dumber and The Goonies don't belong on the channel. Ever.

[J'onn J'onzz]

See, the thing is, the nextwork is so reptitive and unwatchable even WITHOUT live action, that it doesn't really bother me that much that they're airing it. Because I don't watch the channel very much anyway. If they were airing live action shows that have nothing to do with animation (School of Rock, Dumb and Dumber) back in the 90s or early 2000s, it would bother me, because for the most part, their schedule was actually GOOD back then. But now they just air stupid shows like "My Gym Partner's a Monkey" and "Squirrel Boy" and I can't find myself missing extra reruns of those shows, even if they are being replaced by something as "jump the shark"-y as live action.

But I admit that I will be watching Goosebumps in October simply for nostalgia.

Edit: Did everyone miss when they aired "Beethoven" a few weeks back? I mean, some live action comedy/drama film about a dog. That's about as far from animation as you can get. I know that there was a Beethoven animated series, but, man, if they're going to air the film, shouldn't they actually air it as sort of a jump start for the animated series? I mean, that's just stupid. Picking and chosing parts of a franchise, and chosing the parts that go against your name. That's like the biggest jump the shark moment you can have. They did the same thing with the Mask and Men in Black. If you're going to air the live action movies, air the animated series. I don't care if the animated series are from the 90; the movies were even older, yet you think kids will watch them. Why does CN think their audience hates cartoons?

[Blackstar]

All I'm going to say is, if CN is going to continue trying to be Nickelodeon Too, they need to give the channel a different name. It's stupid for them to continue calling the channel CARTOON Network when animation is no longer it's central theme.

[Silverstar]

I'm of 2 minds on this.

On the one hand, I can't stand what CN (as I've said before, I refuse to call it 'Cartoon Network' under its' current regime) has become, how they're rapidly degenerating into a random pop-culture junk channel for kids just to compete with Nickelodeon, and would love to see them go back to their original format of all animation.

But then I remember that CN wasn't always golden even when they were all animation. There were some good shows at one time, sure, but I never watched everything on CN, not even in its' heyday. CN stopped being a channel for animation lovers of all ages a while ago, even before this onslaught of live-action. Plus, I don't know what the network's ratings have been like; they may have been getting trounced by the competition, and this may be the only way they think they can stay afloat. So on the other hand, while I'm sad to see the original concept of Cartoon Network go, if this is truly what CN wants to do with themselves, I can't really stop them. The least they can do is change the name. Continuing to call the channel Cartoon Network when the cartoons are getting pushed further and further to the wayside is just asinine.

[Anthony C.]

I really hate that mentality. Networks should be true to themselves. When has anything good come from a network grapsing at straws to adapt to the general flow of audiences?

Things sure didn't work out for the best with MTV, VH1 and G4...
:)
I agree with you totally Sketch. People use that excuse without thinking or evidence; its all conventional wisdom. A specialty channel can thrive and be a big success (Food Network, Nickelodeon). In fact, that was the whole entire idea behind cable: to give viewers channels dedicated to specific programming instead of the homogeny of broadcast television.

Anyway, I've stated it before: Cartoon Network has gone down the slippery slope with Live Action and I think it is all crap. However, I think it is time for them to change the name of the network so they can just be honest to the viewing public about their new agenda instead of lying to us. I've all but given up hope for Cartoon Network so I'm not worried about saving the ship.

Danreyes I appreciate your enthusiasm to try and reclaim the old form of Cartoon Network, and I encourage you to keep at it.

[Anthony C.]

I'm of 2 minds on this.

On the one hand, I can't stand what CN (as I've said before, I refuse to call it 'Cartoon Network' under its' current regime) has become, how they're rapidly degenerating into a random pop-culture junk channel for kids just to compete with Nickelodeon, and would love to see them go back to their original format of all animation.

But then I remember that CN wasn't always golden even when they were all animation. There were some good shows at one time, sure, but I never watched everything on CN, not even in its' heyday. CN stopped being a channel for animation lovers of all ages a while ago, even before this onslaught of live-action. Plus, I don't know what the network's ratings have been like; they may have been getting trounced by the competition, and this may be the only way they think they can stay afloat. So on the other hand, while I'm sad to see the original concept of Cartoon Network go, if this is truly what CN wants to do with themselves, I can't really stop them. The least they can do is change the name. Continuing to call the channel Cartoon Network when the cartoons are getting pushed further and further to the wayside is just asinine.

I agree with you to a certain extent. However, it must be said that based on all the evidence that has been gathered, after the AOL merger and the new regime was installed, they were the ones responsible for causing the network to tank. Under the Cohen era, they were enjoying higher and higher ratings per quarter and they had a long term goal: CREATING an audience that would watch animation all of the time. By 2001, they were getting better an better.

It is a mistake for people to pretend that back in the day, Cartoon Network was perfect because it most certainly was not. They would have their fair share of filler programming and their shedule was repetitive even back then (Scooby Doo). However, the great still highly outweighed the bad. Classic cartoons, Toonami, their own original programming, animated movies. More importantly, Cartoon Network back in the day had some kind of vision-like showing that Screwy Squirrel cartoon on April Fool's day all day long. Or showing Iron Giant for 24 hours straight despite the movie flopping at the box office. Yet more importantly they improved every year, and they were cutting out all of the crap that bogged down the network. Yet when the merger happened everything literally fell apart.

[Bubblegum Girl]

Cartoon Network just went downhill when they started showing live action...:sad:

CN should just stick to cartoons.

[Junko Black]

Jumping shark senses...TINGLING!!!

[kaleb]

I couldn't vote because I didn't see the right option for me. I'm okay with live action if it has something to do with cartoons but do not think that situation would necessitate a name change. I'm also okay with kids hosting shows because CN must realize that may help get more kids interested. CN may be changing direction and I understand their situation but that also doesn't mean I'm all cheery about it.

I know this topic has been hammered over and over again: Why would Cartoon Network add live action if that would bring it's ratings down?? Live action must be helping the bottom line or they wouldn't be adding more. It's a network, this is a business!

Many (not all) the executives may be cartoon lovers in their hearts but they have a job to do and emotional attachment and nostalgia don't count. There obviously is not enough hard core "Cartoon Network is for cartoons" people around to keep the channel live-action free. This is about numbers and there is nothing wrong with that! If you were running a business, would you stand by and watch your bottom line decline or would you do what it takes to put more bucks in your pocket? If you answered, "I would keep it the way it was because it's supposed to be all cartoons, blah, blah, blah, I bet you don't own a business!

[Slipperman]

I say it depends on if the host of the live action segments happens to be a hot young lady that would keep us tuned in (i.e. Tara from Fridays)...:D

Otherwise...meh...

Tim (aka the Slipperman)

[80's guy]

Y'all are overreaction a little.

Cartoon Network did air live action movie.

Out of Jimmy head is the only live action series cartoon network is airing

Cartoon Network is airing R.L. Stine The Haunting Hour on Sept 4 and the there is the Live action Ben 10,

[Silverstar]

I couldn't vote because I didn't see the right option for me. I'm okay with live action if it has something to do with cartoons but do not think that situation would necessitate a name change.

That's just it: a lot of the live-action shows and movies that CN shows have nothing to do with cartoons. If CN restricted the live-action to only shows and movies which pertained to or featured animation, a lot of people wouldn't be complaining so much. But if cartoons are destined to become an afterthought on CN instead of its' central theme, then I feel that a name change in necessary. It's like MTV still calling itself Music Television when currently it's about 85% reality shows or G4 still using a name that suggests that they're still about Games, Gear, Gadgets and Gigabytes when it's now mostly just hormone-surging, lowest common denominator crap you could see on Spike or any other 'trash' channel: they keep the name because it's become a licensed trademark, but really, it's an inaccurate joke.

I'm also okay with kids hosting shows because CN must realize that may help get more kids interested. CN may be changing direction and I understand their situation but that also doesn't mean I'm all cheery about it.

I'm not crazy about the Fried Dynamite concept myself, but that's beside the point; kids hosting shows isn't the issue here. Obviously, the idea is that kids will watch a block hosted by other kids, but the wraparounds aren't really all that important to a block. Fried Dynamite could be hosted by Blake and his 10-year-old pals, the hand puppets Hoss and Little Joe, Carrot Top, Space Ghost or even Bronson Pinchot in bike shorts, it really doesn't matter. It only matters if the shows themselves are worth watching.

I know this topic has been hammered over and over again: Why would Cartoon Network add live action if that would bring it's ratings down?? Live action must be helping the bottom line or they wouldn't be adding more. It's a network, this is a business!

Again, no one's arguing that point, at least I'm not. If CN wants to start showing live-action because they think that'll bring in more viewers, then I'm fine with that, provided the live-action is a) entertaining and b) relevant to the theme of the channel. What most people are upset about is how the live-action is straying further and further from the original point of the network and seems to be taking over. To many of us, some live-action would be OK, but more live-action than cartoons on a channel called CARTOON Network isn't acceptable.

Actually, I think a lot of the reasoning behind the influx of live-action has more to do with money than with ratings. Live-action is cheaper, quicker and easier to produce than animation. CN can grind out 2 or 3 live-action projects in the time it would take to produce 1 animated series.

Many (not all) the executives may be cartoon lovers in their hearts but they have a job to do and emotional attachment and nostalgia don't count.

I agree with this; you'll get no counterpoint from me there. Anyone expecting CN to go back to being exactly like they were is delusional. A network must continue to move ahead in order to stay ahead.

There obviously is not enough hard core "Cartoon Network is for cartoons" people around to keep the channel live-action free. This is about numbers and there is nothing wrong with that! If you were running a business, would you stand by and watch your bottom line decline or would you do what it takes to put more bucks in your pocket? If you answered, "I would keep it the way it was because it's supposed to be all cartoons, blah, blah, blah, I bet you don't own a business!

Judging from many of the posts here and on other forums, I would dare say that there is quite a sufficient number of hardcore "Cartoon Network is for cartoons" people out there. The problem is that they're not the ones whom CN aims their shows and ads at. They are currently aiming their network at children young children under 13, whose tastes aren't that discriminating. Again, I think the influx of live-action on CN is just as much financial as it has to do with ratings; it's simply easier and less expensive to just shoot some crappy live-action sitcom or show a bunch of 10-year-old cable movies than it would be to produce quality animated programs. And to reiterate, if that's truly what CN wants to do, then that's their right. Just don't call it CARTOON Network if the channel's central theme and content (and this includes the live-action projects) is not going to be about cartoons anymore, I say.

[Blackstar]

Y'all are overreaction a little.

Cartoon Network did air live action movie.

Out of Jimmy head is the only live action series cartoon network is airing

Cartoon Network is airing R.L. Stine The Haunting Hour on Sept 4 and the there is the Live action Ben 10,

Um...no one was arguing/denying any of that, guy. What point are you trying to make? :shrug:

As previously stated, I see nothing wrong with CN airing live action movies/shows, just so long as they are at least obliquely related to animation. But what does The School of Rock have to with animation? Nothing. Same deal with Goosebumps. That's just general children's programming, and if CN wants to be another general kids' entertainment channel, then what's the point of continuing to call itself Cartoon Network?

Cartoon Network ten years ago was hardly perfect. In fact, when I 1st got the channel back in 1995, I was frequently annoyed by how often I would see the exact same cartoons airing several times in a day. It got a little better when Toonami made it's debut two years later, but the network still wasn't perfect to me.

Many (not all) the executives may be cartoon lovers in their hearts but they have a job to do and emotional attachment and nostalgia don't count. There obviously is not enough hard core "Cartoon Network is for cartoons" people around to keep the channel live-action free. This is about numbers and there is nothing wrong with that! If you were running a business, would you stand by and watch your bottom line decline or would you do what it takes to put more bucks in your pocket? If you answered, "I would keep it the way it was because it's supposed to be all cartoons, blah, blah, blah, I bet you don't own a business!

I agree with this to a point. While it's indeed true that CN is, first and foremost, a business. And clearly, CN was getting trounced in the ratings by Nickelodeon and the Disney Channel in recent years. (Why else would CN be trying so hard to be like Nick?) But I disagree about there not being enough animation buffs to keep the channel live action free. There are plenty of "Toon Heads" out there (the fact that Boomerang exists and is still running should be proof of that). The problem is that most of them are over the age of 12, which is well beyond the age group that CN has been aiming their channel at for years now. Adults don't buy Bratz dolls or Mighty Kids Meals or video games, and all of those companies are sponsoring CN, so consequently, CN is aiming itself primarily (if not exclusively) to kids, because that's where the money is.

Before, there was a balance. Cartoon Network was mostly for kids, but there was still some programming for the elder toonsmiths to enjoy as well. But now, CN is aimed at kids aged 12 and under exclusively. CN is introducing more live action programming because: a) It's cheaper to produce live action shows and to bring in live action movies from outside sources than it is to bring in animated programming form other studios, and b) Because Nick (a kids channel that is not exclusively animation) is continually trouncing them in the ratings, and CN wants a piece of that fat money cake. Like Kaleb said. It's about the money first and the love 2nd.

I'm not a kid, so CN isn't the slightest bit interested in what I want to watch, and I can deal with that. But if CN wants to become a general kids entertainment network, they should start calling themselves something else, like Kids WB (I'm sure that they could use that name now). Being a "Cartoon" Network in name only makes them look hypocritical, or at least as if they're too lazy to simply change the network's name, rather like the current G4 (aka, SpikeTV Too) in that regard.

[kaleb]

OK Everybody- Here's a question for you then:

IF Cartoon Network changed it's name (not that they would ever do that), would you be happy??

[Blackstar]

OK Everybody- Here's a question for you then:

IF Cartoon Network changed it's name (not that they would ever do that), would you be happy??

Well, I don't know if "happy" is the right word to use. I wouldn't be delighted, since it would still be the same crappy kids' channel just with a different name, but at least the network formerly known as CN would be being honest with it's viewers about them taking the channel in a different direction. People would still be on boards like this one complaining about how badly the network stinks now, they just wouldn't be calling the object of the scorn by the moniker "CN" anymore. If you think a mere name change is going to stop all of the rants and the angry posts, think again.

Honestly, I'd be happier if someone who actually gave a crap about animation were to buy the network (or at least the name) from Turner and turn it into something that everyone (not just sugar high school kids) would want to see.

[danreyes1]

OK Everybody- Here's a question for you then:

IF Cartoon Network changed it's name (not that they would ever do that), would you be happy??

I wouldn't. Keeping the name Cartoon Network keeps some hope in my heart. As soon as the name changes, though, I will have lost my last reason to watch cable.

However, it would end the whole issue once and for all and people would stop complaining about the live action (however, I'm sure "CN sucks now" complaints would continue, if not increase)

Kind of off topic: I wonder, if they made Boomerang a regular channel, how would the ratings that channel generates compare to CN? I know I'd be watching Boomerang constantly.

[Don_East]

Here's my belief, if it has animaton in more than just the intro, it passes in my book. So I'm fine with Pee-Wee's Playhouse, Who Framed Roger Rabbit, & ***UGH*** Out Of Jimmy's Head because of what I call, the "Banana Splits Rule". However I am strongly against Goosebumps. Which has no animation what so ever.

Another thing that bothers me is how they are trying to beat the Disney Channel, ou can tell because in the Goosebumps ad they mention it stars Emily Osment(who is now on Disney's Hannah Montana). Yet they get the rights to several live-action Disney films which had to require money to fund the same company that owns the channel they're trying to beat.

And another thing, why are they doing a live-action Ben 10 movie? Oh because Avatar: The Last Airbender is gonna have one? From what I've heard about it, the recent TV movie could've been for theaters. Then again they are probably gun shy form the PPG movie to release anything else. Which they should take note from Nick about, I mean they threw away money on three Rugrats movies including one that is a crossover with The Wild Thornberries and they still seem to be fine.

I wish I could on but I made my point.

[Don_East]

[kaleb]

Kind of off topic: I wonder, if they made Boomerang a regular channel, how would the ratings that channel generates compare to CN? I know I'd be watching Boomerang constantly.

I've thought of this too. I wonder why Boomerang is not included in my basic cable package. It seems like it would be fair to have both channels available (basically free) to CN fans, but I bet there are several reasons why that won't happen

[Silverstar]

Kind of off topic: I wonder, if they made Boomerang a regular channel, how would the ratings that channel generates compare to CN? I know I'd be watching Boomerang constantly.

You mean like if Boomerang became a basic cable channel which was available to everyone? I know it's something a lot of people would like to see happen. But realistically, how would such a move go over?

The first year or 2, it would probably be great. People would take to it like a bear to honey. It would be great seeing the toons we grew up with again, and kids could experience these shows for the first time. But eventually, they'd start to feel the crunch of competing against other cable networks which could offer fresh new shows and viewers would eventually start to fall off because Boomerang would have no original programming of it's own to counter them. If such a thing were to happen, I would hope that Boom would be able to integrate new, original programming into their schedule without compromising their original promise to remain the "home of classic cartoons" and at the same time, remain ad-free. (Although if the Boom did have to become a commercial network, I could deal with that, as long as they didn't lose their way like CN did.) It would help if Boomerang's admen didn't aim their channel at kids, but rather at general fans of animation. That way, they could keep the classics and reruns in a revered position on the channel and still add new shows without having to try and please just the fickle 'sugar-high school kids' demographic. Maybe that way we could also get a nighttime [adult swim] like block, only more suited for a general prime-time audience; it could feature cartoons that older folks could enjoy, but they wouldn't have to cater to the TV-MA rated extreme fringe; kind of like when the Cartoon Cartoons first started and they aired on Cartoon Network weeknights.

Pipe dream? Maybe. But we can dream.

[danreyes1]

Here's my belief, if it has animaton in more than just the intro, it passes in my book. So I'm fine with Pee-Wee's Playhouse, Who Framed Roger Rabbit, & ***UGH*** Out Of Jimmy's Head because of what I call, the "Banana Splits Rule". However I am strongly against Goosebumps. Which has no animation what so ever.

Yeah, see, if CN wasn't playing so many live action movies right now, I think there'd be less complaints about OoJH. Nobody complained about Banana Splits because it didn't dominate the network (in fact, I think it was relegated to a severely early morning schedule). Same with things like Space Ghost: Coast to Coast and that show Carrot Top hosted ages ago. The reason OoJH is generating so much hatred is because, along with a large amount of live-action movies, it points towards an unwanted new direction for the network.

You mean like if Boomerang became a basic cable channel which was available to everyone? I know it's something a lot of people would like to see happen. But realistically, how would such a move go over?

The first year or 2, it would probably be great. People would take to it like a bear to honey. It would be great seeing the toons we grew up with again, and kids could experience these shows for the first time. But eventually, they'd start to feel the crunch of competing against other networks like Nick and Disney and viewers would start to fall off because Boomerang would have no original programming of it's own to counter them. If such a thing were to happen, I would hope that Boom would be able to integrate new, original programming into their schedule without compromising their original promise to remain the "home of classic cartoons" and at the same time, remain ad-free. (Although if the Boom did have to become a commercial network, I could deal with that, as long as they didn't lose their way like CN did.)

Pipe dream? Maybe. But we can dream.

Never said it was realistic. I was just wondering.

Realisticly, Boomerang would probably end up going downhill just like CN. I don't receive Toon Disney or the Nicktoon Network, but looking at their current schedules, they're no better than their regular networks right now. The same cartoons all day long, very few of the classic cartoons I want to watch. I guess all-cartoon channels really aren't as relevant as they used to be.

[Mugen]

The first year or 2, it would probably be great. People would take to it like a bear to honey. It would be great seeing the toons we grew up with again, and kids could experience these shows for the first time. But eventually, they'd start to feel the crunch of competing against other cable networks which could offer fresh new shows and viewers would eventually start to fall off because Boomerang would have no original programming of it's own to counter them. If such a thing were to happen, I would hope that Boom would be able to integrate new, original programming into their schedule without compromising their original promise to remain the "home of classic cartoons" and at the same time, remain ad-free. (Although if the Boom did have to become a commercial network, I could deal with that, as long as they didn't lose their way like CN did.) It would help if Boomerang's admen didn't aim their channel at kids, but rather at general fans of animation. That way, they could keep the classics and reruns in a revered position on the channel and still add new shows without having to try and please just the fickle 'sugar-high school kids' demographic. Maybe that way we could also get a nighttime [adult swim] like block, only more suited for a general prime-time audience; it could feature cartoons that older folks could enjoy, but they wouldn't have to cater to the TV-MA rated extreme fringe; kind of like when the Cartoon Cartoons first started and they aired on Cartoon Network weeknights.



Or Boomerang US can turn into it's Latin-America counterpart: A mix between the Disney Channel and The N with some cartoons mixed in there.

[Dr.Pepper]

I hate it for the most part except for stuff like Roger Rabbit wich has animation or stuff that is based on cartoons like Scooby Doo or Spiderman but when they play stuuf like Goosebumps or School of Rock wich has nothing to do with animation that makes me mad. Also a bit off the topic but how come if they are aiming for 6-11 year olds then why do they play movies like Ace Venture or Goonies that came with a TV-14 rating on them, during the day? Six year olds shouldn't watch that kind of stuff.

[HEATXZ]

I can take Half Live action and half animation like Transformers and Who Frame Roger Rabbit but all live action no

[Dudley]

I suggested this at the CN spinoff thread. I think they should make CN an extended cable channel channel (like Toon Disney or Boomerang), and change the current CN into the Acme Network.

Ya know, no one expected CN to end up where it is now. If I recall (and if you remember the interstitials they had) the network was more dedicated to cartoon lovers than kids in general. But over time kids started watching it more, so more advertising went towards the kids, and then they started losing that to competitors like Nick and Disney.

Anyhoo, I've been turning the other cheek with most of the live action shows, but airing Goosebumps is the last straw.

[Movie06]

Ya know, no one expected CN to end up where it is now.

I did, as I said; I saw it coming.

[Blackstar]

I did, as I said; I saw it coming.

Yes. You mentioned that about 5 or 6 times now....

How about actually contributing to the conversation for once instead of just saying "I saw it coming" again and again? It just kind of seems like you're trolling is all.

[Silverstar]

How about actually offering an opinion to the conversation for once instead of just saying "I saw it coming" again and again? It just kind of seems like you're trolling is all.

And actually offer an opinion on the subject; don't just complain about the complaining. We'd like to actually hear your views on this.

[Movie06]

Alright well, I don't have much of an opinion on live action on CN but I'll say this, I'm not entirely impressed with Re-Animated; I just thought it was poorly done and the writing wasn't exactly good and the characters aren't that interesting. But overall, I'm 50/50 on the whole 'Live Action on CN' thing.

[Silverstar]

Fair enough. But even though I didn't enjoy the Re-Animated movie personally, I'm willing to accept Out of Jimmy's Head airing on CN, since it at least features animated characters and utilizes cartoons as it's central theme. Things like Goosebumps, School of Rock, The Goonies, Honey, I Shrunk the Kids and the like are just too far off the point to rightfully be shown on the channel, IMO.

I find it ironic that CN is mutating itself in order to compete with Nick and Disney, when the fact that they were all animation already set them apart from those channels and helped it stand out. Without that claim, CN just comes off like a needy Nick/Disney wannabe, IMHO. This, at bare bones level, is my biggest beef with this move: CN is remaking itself to be a clone of every other kids' network, when it already possessed a standout feature. I used to turn to Cartoon Network as an alternative to the 'tweenybopper' shows on Disney and Nick. It was bad enough when CN went from being a channel that was for animation lovers of all ages and became a channel strictly for kiddies, but ruining that in favor of becoming a Disney/Nick clone is the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back for me.

[Movie06]

Is Out of Jimmy's Head going to be that good? Just curious also hate to get off topic and it's a really stupid question but what do you think of my signature? Tobe Hooper's one of my heroes.

[Dark Soul]

Well I like CN for its "standout" feature, cartoon only channel. Now with this live action garbage that stand out feature is gone. CN now is a wannabe of Disney and Nick, a whipping post if you will.

I absolutely agree with what Sliverstar said. CN has now a shell of its former self. The sin of Greed and its Lust for ratings has corrupted the minds of the execs there.

I know CN can't be the same as before it has to move forward but for pity's sake stick with the values that we grew fond of. The traditional core of CN that we knew is no more. All it is, is this cheesy d listed live action garbage infused with the copy cat clone of Nick and Disney. And I despise those 2 channels and now I have to dislike this one.

I grew up watching cartoon network its a blow to my childhood that I had before if this what CN is now. All I'm saying is that I want CN to revert back to its traditional values nothing more CN= is for cartoons not live action.

[danreyes1]

Well I like CN for its "standout" feature, cartoon only channel. Now with this live action garbage that stand out feature is gone. CN now is a wannabe of Disney and Nick, a whipping post if you will.


That's precisely why I'm against live-action on CN as well as changing the name to allow said live action animation. As soon as CN green lights full on live-action as a standard, it becomes just another generic kid's network. Cartoon exclusivity was what separated them from the likes of Nick and Disney. That's what made it special and worth watching.

[Tea]

I'm unsurprisingly on the "Cartoon Network should only show cartoons" side, as I'm sure most of here are. Since almost all of us are--ya know--animation fans.... it's why we watch the channel.

But if they changed their name I'd personally stop complaining. Then again they keep up with the live-action onslaught, I'll definitely be changing my viewership to something like Nick on Demand or the Nicktoons channel.

[huyductran]

i heard that big bad beetleborgs will be joining cartoon network in jan 2008? i doubt it...

[Blackstar]

i heard that big bad beetleborgs will be joining cartoon network in jan 2008? i doubt it...

Source...? Link...?

But even if that's true, Big Bad Beetleborgs was at least silly enough to qualify as a live action cartoon, so I'd be OK with that.

[Movie06]

i heard that big bad beetleborgs will be joining cartoon network in jan 2008? i doubt it...

How did CN get the rights to that show?

[Silverstar]

We don't know that they did yet. Still waiting on that link.....

[Pomegranate]

Beetleborgs on CN? I kinda doubt that'll happen, because Disney is sitting on the rights, but then again, Batman and Superman TAS are both heading to Jetix this upcoming September, so that maybe possible. IMVHO, I hate American adaptations of foreign live-action shows, so I would like to see a subtitled version of both Juukou B-Fighter and B-Fighter Kabuto sometime this millennium.

[Draft]

Well ,it would kind of make sense if they are getting Kamen Rider, But then again, Beetleborgs is Saban, but then again, Jetix just got Superman and Batman TAS..

[Movie06]

But I do hope CN won't screw up Kamen Rider, I mean Masked Rider is just a big insult to Japan.

[MegaJ]

I really hate that mentality. Networks should be true to themselves. When has anything good come from a network grapsing at straws to adapt to the general flow of audiences?

Things sure didn't work out for the best with MTV, VH1 and G4...

Here's the problem though: MTV, VH1, and G4...they've grown (though MTV has hit a serious snag due to the popularity of online distractions and they've had to lay off several people this year). MTV is one of the biggest networks in the world. It's a global brand. VH1 is also doing well since they've turned to the Celebreality stuff. G4 would be in worse shape if they DID stick to tech and video games, the fact is that they've actually GROWN since they've bough TechTV and it looks like they're lot better off than the old network was.

As much as I hate this, as much as I dislike Cartoon Network for doing live-action...I fault them for wanting to grow and if this is what it takes then...they have to do it, original message statement be d---ed.

[Sketch]

G4 grown? I'd hardly call it growing. They're SpikeTV lite and they're not even good at doing that. TechTV was pretty decent on it's own so it's a shame G4 bought them up just to do away with everything but X-Play. The original G4 was something unique and special and the network is so poorly rated even today that was pointless to change. They didn't grow. They degenerated.

As for MTV you somewhat have a point. However, as global as the brand has become it's pretty much a joke in the US. Who respects MTV anymore? You can't even turn to MTV2 to really get your music fix. Good thing FUSE is around. They play a bunch of random stuff as well but at least you can tune in most days to see some music videos.

A niche network needs to do it's best to fill a niche. If they niche is simply unfilable then they can change their plan but CN worked as a purely cartoon channel for years and kids don't want another Nick or another Disney. They watch those channels for the shows they like on them. Kids that do watch CN watch it because they like CN's own flavor of cartoons but lately that flavor has become a lot less potent and everything on TV is tasting more the same every year. If this kind of degeneration continues then in no time at all there wont even be niche networks. All just the same stuff for children or adults.

To truely grow a network has to do things smartly.

[Antiyonder]

Here's the problem though: MTV, VH1, and G4...they've grown (though MTV has hit a serious snag due to the popularity of online distractions and they've had to lay off several people this year). MTV is one of the biggest networks in the world. It's a global brand. VH1 is also doing well since they've turned to the Celebreality stuff. G4 would be in worse shape if they DID stick to tech and video games, the fact is that they've actually GROWN since they've bough TechTV and it looks like they're lot better off than the old network was.

As much as I hate this, as much as I dislike Cartoon Network for doing live-action...I fault them for wanting to grow and if this is what it takes then...they have to do it, original message statement be d---ed.


[/i]

For those that commend Cartoon Network for their decision, keep this in mind. They've managed to churn out good ratings from the mid-90s to 2004, so obviously a network for Cartoons wasn't a flop. I mean, Toon Disney isn't as live action heavy as Cartoon Network (Power Rangers is a live action toon, and their movie choices tend to be animation VS live action) and they seem to be doing just fine.

But if they want to expand their horizon, then live action shows with cartoonish elements or live action/cartoon hybrids, that's reasonable.

One thing I think they should try is something along the lines of Shake, Rattle and Roll. It was that one live action show that would feature modern animated shorts (Disney Channel airings would include a Flintstone cartoon featuring Dino and a Cavemouse). Anyone else remember the show?

As for the movies, this weekend seems to be more of a compromise as we get Son Of The Mask and Scooby Doo.

Since it was brought up, I'm personally hoping that Jetix will give VR Troopers and Beetleborgs an airing sometime (both have a good 96 episodes each).

[laactor101]

:lol:Jumping shark senses...TINGLING!!!

[Dr.Pepper]

One thing I think they should try is something along the lines of Shake, Rattle and Roll. It was that one live action show that would feature modern animated shorts (Disney Channel airings would include a Flintstone cartoon featuring Dino and a Cavemouse). Anyone else remember the show?
Did that show have a robot and a kid? If so then yeah. If not then no.

[MegaJ]

G4 grown? I'd hardly call it growing. They're SpikeTV lite and they're not even good at doing that. TechTV was pretty decent on it's own so it's a shame G4 bought them up just to do away with everything but X-Play. The original G4 was something unique and special and the network is so poorly rated even today that was pointless to change. They didn't grow. They degenerated.

I'm talking they've grown as getting more people to watch their network and hopefully got their network in more homes. Though they're not quite their yet as evidence as Free Stuff: During Free Stuff, Morgan and Kevin kept telling us to tell our friends about the show, and I'm like "Hey, why should I? Wouldn't that decrease my chances of winning? That doesn't make any sense."

Anyway.

Their ratings HAVE grown (though ratings aren't as important getting into homes) and no one can dispute that, no matter how controversial their programming decisions have been. It's the sad fact that CN has learned: You can indeed not be faithful to your old audience in order to grow and attract a new one. And as much as I hate CN, I'm not going to stop watching it (I like quite a few shows on there) and I'm not alone so...there's little we can do...

[Antiyonder]

Did that show have a robot and a kid? If so then yeah. If not then no.

Correct. The show with the robot. Also, the main character would speak to his sister through the Debbie detector. I did get the title wrong though. It was "Wake, Rattle and Roll", then titled "Jump, Rattle and Roll."

The show had the following shorts:
Monster Tails
Fender Bender 500 (a modern day Wacky Races)
Cave Mouse & Dino/Undercover Elephant (Disney Channel airing, when the show became Jump, Rattle and Roll).

Their ratings HAVE grown (though ratings aren't as important getting into homes) and no one can dispute that, no matter how controversial their programming decisions have been. It's the sad fact that CN has learned: You can indeed not be faithful to your old audience in order to grow and attract a new one. And as much as I hate CN, I'm not going to stop watching it (I like quite a few shows on there) and I'm not alone so...there's little we can do...

It's not about being faithful to the older audience, we're simply saying that effort is the key. But as long as any live action series they bring on is a C/LA hybrid or pertains to cartoons in some way, then it does work for the network. If it would help to get more television audiences into watching cartoons, it might be worth it.

[danreyes1]

But even if that's true, Big Bad Beetleborgs was at least silly enough to qualify as a live action cartoon, so I'd be OK with that.

I'm not even for said cartoony live action shows on CN. What makes them cartoony? That they're kid friendly, silly, and have a sci-fi/fantasy theme? It's still live-action, and it's still the Cartoon Network. Having things like Kamen Rider and Big Bad Beetleborgs will just turn CN into a Jetix clone. I'd rather just have CN, crappy cartoons or not.

[Road Runner]

There's NOTHING we can do...

I hate CN terra-firma now, and not even going back to their roots can make me watch. They can't even HEAR us! Just rename yourself, make the bumps and shows from before the rename PUBLIC DOMAIN, and end it. YOU ON AN IRREVERSABLE PATH OF SELF-DESTRUCTION. You cannot stop it. You will die out, CN!

Rename: Now the cat's out of the bag, and the kids know what they're really watching. Not even kids are immune to INTELLIGENCE.

Public Domain: This will throw the nostalgists off your back for good, now that they'd have everything they wanted. Nostalgists are the BON-FIDE BASHERS AND HATERS of CN, doing everything they can to remember your past, including breaking copyright laws.

End: This will allow you to continue your ways. The only bashers would be your glued-to-the-set viewers.

[Toonfan2000]

There's NOTHING we can do...

I hate CN terra-firma now, and not even going back to their roots can make me watch. They can't even HEAR us! Just rename yourself, make the bumps and shows from before the rename PUBLIC DOMAIN, and end it. YOU ON AN IRREVERSABLE PATH OF SELF-DESTRUCTION. You cannot stop it. You will die out, CN!

Rename: Now the cat's out of the bag, and the kids know what they're really watching. Not even kids are immune to INTELLIGENCE.

Public Domain: This will throw the nostalgists off your back for good, now that they'd have everything they wanted. Nostalgists are the BON-FIDE BASHERS AND HATERS of CN, doing everything they can to remember your past, including breaking copyright laws.

End: This will allow you to continue your ways. The only bashers would be your glued-to-the-set viewers.

-RANT WARNING-
I like the old CN and all, but trust me, those bumps and shows will NEVER be in the public domain. Several of the old Cartoon Cartoons are still on TV (Dexter, Cow and Chicken and Mike, Lu and Og are on Boomerang, Courage reruns on CN, and Powerpuff Girls and Samurai Jack are on DVD, and Johnny Bravo is on iTunes). On the topic of the bumpers, CN won't make them available, primarily because they assume nobody wants to see them again. Also, those bumpers include copyrighted characters and a logo that was used by the network for over ten years. So the process of releasing these characters who were the network's "stars" for years into the public domain would be a very painful one, primarily because it would mean they would lose money.

I'm not trying to flame.

[Anthony C.]

Here's the problem though: MTV, VH1, and G4...they've grown (though MTV has hit a serious snag due to the popularity of online distractions and they've had to lay off several people this year). MTV is one of the biggest networks in the world. It's a global brand. VH1 is also doing well since they've turned to the Celebreality stuff. G4 would be in worse shape if they DID stick to tech and video games, the fact is that they've actually GROWN since they've bough TechTV and it looks like they're lot better off than the old network was.

As much as I hate this, as much as I dislike Cartoon Network for doing live-action...I fault them for wanting to grow and if this is what it takes then...they have to do it, original message statement be d---ed.


[/i]

You're forgetting something: From the mid '90s to 2002 they were making yearly growth and by 2001 they were the most profitable network under the turner networks. They were making progress every damn year and they did that by steadily building an audience for animation fans of all ages. It was after 2002, which also coincided with the Kellner-led coup of the network, in which the ratings tanked and programming became rancid.

That is the exact reason why so many people on this board is so pissed off at the powers that be of cartoon network: they're the ones responsible for the poor performance of the network, with their poor choice in programming and idiotic belief that their network should only appeal to children, and instead of looking at themselves in the mirror, they turn the blame on the medium itself. It is an insult to the fans of CN. (BTW, Nickelodeon has made growth over 2 decades by sticking to their original mission statement)

[Anthony C.]

I'm not even for said cartoony live action shows on CN. What makes them cartoony? That they're kid friendly, silly, and have a sci-fi/fantasy theme? It's still live-action, and it's still the Cartoon Network. Having things like Kamen Rider and Big Bad Beetleborgs will just turn CN into a Jetix clone. I'd rather just have CN, crappy cartoons or not.
:) Right on.

[danreyes1]

I'm tired of CN. I'm tired of its bad decisions. I'm tired of its lack of variety. I'm tired of its transformation into a generic kid's network. I'm tired of its refusal to acknowledge its own mistakes.

And I'm tired of just sitting around and doing nothing about it.

I know many of you share this view. But I see a lot of people also saying "You can't do anything about it. You're not in the target demographic, so they don't care". I think that's part of the problem. This attitude prevents people from trying, from giving CN feedback, and just leads to it making more bad decisions. If we inform them that there is in fact an adult audience that is unhappy with the way they're running things, they might make an attempt to improve. At the very least, they'd be aware of us and our grievances.

October 1st, I believe, will be their 15th anniversary. On that day, I will send them a written letter. On this letter will be a polite summery of all my grievances and some suggestions that I believe will make them a better network. I suggest that those of you who agree with me do the same, and suggest to other like-minded individuals to do the same.

Because taking action will do a whole lot more than complaining on an esoteric online forum.

[btv]

Great idea, but I'm not sure how well this will work.

[Blackstar]

I still say that the best way for fans to show our discontent for CN's current scheduling is for everyone to collectively cut them off. It would take a lot of people in a lot of homes to participate in order to make an impact, but if millions of people across the U.S. collectively tuned the network out, did not watch any of it's programming and refused to buy or order any of their merchandise, CN would have no choice but to take notice.

[danreyes1]

Great idea, but I'm not sure how well this will work.

That's why I'm trying to get people to listen. The more people that do it, the more the guys at CN will notice. I'm going to do it regardless.

If they get just one letter, they'll throw it away. If they get a few letters, they'll probably consider it a coincidence. If they get a whole lot of letters, they might take it seriously... whether they do anything about it or not, they'll be aware of us and our grievances.

So it doesn't hurt to try.

[tucsoncoyote]

I'm tired of CN. I'm tired of its bad decisions. I'm tired of its lack of variety. I'm tired of its transformation into a generic kid's network. I'm tired of its refusal to acknowledge its own mistakes.

And I'm tired of just sitting around and doing nothing about it.

I know many of you share this view. But I see a lot of people also saying "You can't do anything about it. You're not in the target demographic, so they don't care". I think that's part of the problem. This attitude prevents people from trying, from giving CN feedback, and just leads to it making more bad decisions. If we inform them that there is in fact an adult audience that is unhappy with the way they're running things, they might make an attempt to improve. At the very least, they'd be aware of us and our grievances.

October 1st, I believe, will be their 15th anniversary. On that day, I will send them a written letter. On this letter will be a polite summery of all my grievances and some suggestions that I believe will make them a better network. I suggest that those of you who agree with me do the same, and suggest to other like-minded individuals to do the same.

Because taking action will do a whole lot more than complaining on an esoteric online forum.

In fact danreyes1, the best way you suggest is really the best way to approach this problem. For example you might wonder why Kim Possible fans got a fourth season? They were persistent, and complained loud and long.

And believe me I can relate to this issue of CN going downhill, it's not just CN, but CN, Disney and even Nickelodeon (Believe me, this is that so called 'wasteland' of animation and Live action shows, I keep talking about.)

Frankly, I can relate to what you are suggesting and in fact I think maybe what you need is some guidance as to how to run a successful campaign (yes this starts to sound like military talk, and in a way it is.)

But believe me, I can understand how you feel, and I think you should definitely work with others and ask for ideas as to what steps can be taken.

After all I feel that anyone can fight a company and win. It's not just Disney, it's any company that doesn't give you (The Customer) satisfaction.
After all I was brought up in the Customer service business, and if you leave a customer unhappy, well then you find out that one person will tell 10 people.. and those 10 people will tell 10 others, (and so on, and So on, and so on..)


As for those folks who say that you are out of the Demographic people talk about? Hardly. A lot of shows that are geared for certain ages, sometimes do appeal to other age groups. It's a known fact that cartoons are not "Just for kids'. Some parents and even a few adults actually do watch cartoons, as a way to relieve stress.

But if you put your mind to it, and work on a plan, well I would say you're off to a good start..

Just my thoughts on this.

:coyote:

[Lazerboy5000]

Well, CN has been kind of childish recently, and because of that, I've given up on all of their original series.

But, Pokemon, Toonami, and Adlut Swim is still good and much more mature (at least Toonami and [as]) then the rest of CN.

[Darklordavaitor]

I'm tired of CN. I'm tired of its bad decisions. I'm tired of its lack of variety. I'm tired of its transformation into a generic kid's network. I'm tired of its refusal to acknowledge its own mistakes.

Sounds like a cry to Nick, too.

[Antiyonder]

I still say that the best way for fans to show our discontent for CN's current scheduling is for everyone to collectively cut them off. It would take a lot of people in a lot of homes to participate in order to make an impact, but if millions of people across the U.S. collectively tuned the network out, did not watch any of it's programming and refused to buy or order any of their merchandise, CN would have no choice but to take notice.

Considering there "observation" skills, they'll probably take that as a sign that we don't want Cartoons. Lose-Lose.

[Lutochris]

Networks exist to make a profit. If you don't like their product don't buy it. I'm not a fan of "Cartoon Network", I'm a fan of several shows on Cartoon Network. If they don't have any shows I like I just change the channel, simple as that. Why spend so much time and energy worrying about the state of a network as a whole?

I really can't figure out where this whole attitude that we're all somehow "entitled" to be constantly spoonfed great cartoons comes from. If you don't like what Cartoon Network is showing or how they treat their fans, change the channel to Disney or Nick. And then see how quickly you come running back to Cartoon Network.

[codyjones2105]

Networks exist to make a profit. If you don't like their product don't buy it. I'm not a fan of "Cartoon Network", I'm a fan of several shows on Cartoon Network. If they don't have any shows I like I just change the channel, simple as that. Why spend so much time and energy worrying about the state of a network as a whole?

I really can't figure out where this whole attitude that we're all somehow "entitled" to be constantly spoonfed great cartoons comes from. If you don't like what Cartoon Network is showing or how they treat their fans, change the channel to Disney or Nick. And then see how quickly you come running back to Cartoon Network.


For the most part, I understand where you're coming from regarding this. I, too, only watch CN now for the few good shows that are left (which are, unfortunately, few and far between).

However, I think most of the people who have made these threads about the decline of CN are saying that the quality of the current shows have declined greatly over the last few years. And it's affecting all demographics young and old. Even as a young child myself, if I saw a bad show, I didn't watch it. Most kids also know as we do the difference between good shows with quality writing and decent plots that will keep us reeled in. And that's what CN, Nick and Disney prided themselves upon in past years.

I have to agree though, that what Blackstar quoted is for truth. The best and only way to get their attention is to not watch CN (or Nick and Disney) at all, nor buy their merchandise. Cable and satellite subscribers pay a lot of money for quality, and with the costs of these services going up each year, I think we do deserve somewhat better than what we're getting now. Not all of the shows will be hits, but if we can get a few decent shows back on these networks, I think we'll be able to overlook the bad ones without much complaint.

I see both sides of the story here--all these points being brought up in the "CN Going Downhill" threads are pretty valid. And as always, animation should be for everyone to enjoy, instead of just the minority.

[gundam555]

I sent them a written letter once. They ignored it just like with the emails they get. I might do it again. I'm also making a petition (not an internet one) to get CN to stop airing live-action.

[jeff_iz_XLent]

I still say that the best way for fans to show our discontent for CN's current scheduling is for everyone to collectively cut them off.

Yeah,I guess you would know about that. :sad:

[veemonjosh]

If they don't have any shows I like I just change the channel, simple as that.

To what?

Despite how much the channel sucks nowadays, Cartoon Network is the ONLY decent channel on television anymore. When I don't want to watch Cartoon Network, I flip off the TV and pretend that box was never invented.

And that's honestly why I, and possibly others, complain about CN's condition. It's because we don't want our final escape from the horrible television world (of music video channels playing reality shows and other formerly-good channels showing NOTHING but boring teeny-bopper sitcoms) to fall to the hands of crappy programming.

[TheVofSteel]

October 1st, I believe, will be their 15th anniversary. On that day, I will send them a written letter. On this letter will be a polite summery of all my grievances and some suggestions that I believe will make them a better network. I suggest that those of you who agree with me do the same, and suggest to other like-minded individuals to do the same.

Because taking action will do a whole lot more than complaining on an esoteric online forum.

Make sure it's a written letter and not an email. Those actually sometimes get responded to.

Cartoon Network is the ONLY decent channel on television anymore.

I disagree. Boomerang, Nick GAS (at least for me) and VH1 Classic FTW.

[veemonjosh]

I disagree. Boomerang, Nick GAS (at least for me) and VH1 Classic FTW.

So basically, a channel no one gets, a channel that won't even exist in it's current form after this year, and a channel that I don't even care about (much less get) suddenly make my comment invalid?

You have made me see the error of my ways. [/sarcasm]

[TheVofSteel]

So basically, a channel no one gets, a channel that won't even exist in it's current form after this year, and a channel that I don't even care about suddenly make my comment invalid?

You have made me see the error of my ways. [/sarcasm]

God. I was just saying I don't agree that CN is the only decent channel on TV (it's not even that decent anymore). Someone's OPINION does not make another's "invalid". What is up with people? :shrug:

[veemonjosh]

God. I was just saying I don't agree that CN is the only decent channel on TV (it's not even that decent anymore). Someone's OPINION does not make another's "invalid". What is up with people? :shrug:

Whoops, sorry, I thought you were some other guy.

[TheVofSteel]

Whoops, sorry, I thought you were some other guy.

Oh, OK then...Sorry if i came off as rude. :sweat:

[Darklordavaitor]

Despite how much the channel sucks nowadays, Cartoon Network is the ONLY decent channel on television anymore. When I don't want to watch Cartoon Network, I flip off the TV and pretend that box was never invented.

True, at least CN tries with their animated series. Disney just sells a bunch of cheap adaptations(The Emperor's New School) rip-off-istic(The Replacements) and gimmicy(Phineas and Ferb) series, while Nick's overall attitude is if it isn't SpongeBob, Fairly Odd Parents, or even Avatar in the ratings, then it's crap that doesn't deserve to continue. JMHO, though.

[Antiyonder]

True, at least CN tries with their animated series. Disney just sells a bunch of cheap adaptations(The Emperor's New School) rip-off-istic(The Replacements) and gimmicy(Phineas and Ferb) series, while Nick's overall attitude is if it isn't SpongeBob, Fairly Odd Parents, or even Avatar in the ratings, then it's crap that doesn't deserve to continue. JMHO, though.

It seems all current shows have to be set around school or feature children in the main cast. I will at least credit Nick in that the existing current cartoons they have differ from each other in setting and tone.

[Eddy]

I'm hoping CN gets a wake up call from that huge blow in ratings they just got and realize all this live action crap isn't what people want. But who knows? The fact that High School Musical 2 was the hightest rated cable broadcast of all time honestly scares me. For all we know, CN is going to look at this and say "Hey, we need our OWN High School Musical!"

As for your mission Dan, more power to you. If I get around to it I'd have a few choice words for Cartoon Network as well.

[Lutochris]

To what?

Despite how much the channel sucks nowadays, Cartoon Network is the ONLY decent channel on television anymore. When I don't want to watch Cartoon Network, I flip off the TV and pretend that box was never invented.

And that's honestly why I, and possibly others, complain about CN's condition. It's because we don't want our final escape from the horrible television world (of music video channels playing reality shows and other formerly-good channels showing NOTHING but boring teeny-bopper sitcoms) to fall to the hands of crappy programming.

If you honestly believe that there's nothing else on TV worth watching other than CN, then cancel your cable/satellite subscription and use the money to buy DVDs of shows you do like. Or start downloading fansubs. Nothing wrong with a little civil disobedience. If someone doesn't give you something you want, go somewhere else to get it.

[Master Toon]

Why are kids the target demographic?

I am the same as a child in my mind but my body is not, what's the difference?

*This is a joke not to be taken seriously (unless you agree ;))*
I say we threaten the safety of Jimmy and Blake, therefor CN has to up security and their parents will get worried. CN will get tired of throwing away money for protection and the parents will try to get their kids off of CN. That takes care of OOJH and FD.

[Dr.Pepper]

Yeah I just don't get what's up with CN anymore. I mean there is lack of variety and lame bumpers. I can relate more to a fourth grader to anyone my own age so I think that pretty much if I don't like it, they don't like it.

[veemonjosh]

If you honestly believe that there's nothing else on TV worth watching other than CN, then cancel your cable/satellite subscription and use the money to buy DVDs of shows you do like.

I love how you assume I'm the one paying for the cable subscription.

And even if I was, why would I cancel the subscription even though I still enjoy CN?

[Master Moron]

To what?

Despite how much the channel sucks nowadays, Cartoon Network is the ONLY decent channel on television anymore. When I don't want to watch Cartoon Network, I flip off the TV and pretend that box was never invented.


Uhhh...what? I usually watch the big four networks (ABC, NBC, CBS, and Fox) more than Cartoon Network. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that everything that doesn't air on Cartoon Network sucks.

[danreyes1]

For those of you who question why I'm not changing the channel to watch something else... I am. I'm just not happy about it.

For 14 years, the first channel I turned to was CN. For 10 of those years I would actually stay there. For the past few years, I've ended up changing the channel. Cartoons happen to be my favourite form or entertainment. Cartoon Network was the best place to find cartoons. Now it's almost the only place to find them, and what they have isn't all that good, not to mention the fact that their airtime is being invaded by live action.

I care for CN. I really do. I would like a return of a watchable network that is cartoon-exclusive. If you don't care, that's fine. This post, though, is a message for those who do care.

And for those that are being supportive, thanks.

[veemonjosh]

Uhhh...what? I usually watch the big four networks (ABC, NBC, CBS, and Fox) more than Cartoon Network. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that everything that doesn't air on Cartoon Network sucks.

You read my post wrong.

I didn't say that everything that doesn't air on CN sucks. I still love shows like Ninja Turtles, Heroes, The Batman, and Power Rangers. And I'll watch Spider-Man when it airs in February.

But what I mean is that most of the channels are just unbearable nowadays. Seriously, MTV showing reality shows? Disney Channel getting rid of all animation except for a few niche shows?

It just saddens me, really.

[Master Moron]

You read my post wrong.

I didn't say that everything that doesn't air on CN sucks. I still love shows like Ninja Turtles, Heroes, The Batman, and Power Rangers. And I'll watch Spider-Man when it airs in February.

But what I mean is that most of the channels are just unbearable nowadays. Seriously, MTV showing reality shows? Disney Channel getting rid of all animation except for a few niche shows?

It just saddens me, really.

Oh, so you meant cable TV, not network TV. Well, there's still stuff I watch on FX and Comedy Central. But, other than that, yeah, I tend to avoid most of the other cable networks.

[Marinite]

Honestly, do we really need 10 threads each in the Nickelodeon, CN, and Disney forums about people in their 20s complaining about children's television not being exactly the way they were when they were kids?

Kids like it, and that's all that matters. If you don't like it, find, but there's plenty of older people, like me, who think it's fine and the shows are enjoyable. Write all the letters and angry forum posts you want about it, but so long as the kids love it (and they do) it won't do a thing. They really don't need "help" from people who have never managed a television network before in their life.

[The Wolverine]

rip-off-istic(The Replacements)
I just lol'd really hard.

[danreyes1]

Honestly, do we really need 10 threads each in the Nickelodeon, CN, and Disney forums about people in their 20s complaining about children's television not being exactly the way they were when they were kids?

Kids like it, and that's all that matters. If you don't like it, find, but there's plenty of older people, like me, who think it's fine and the shows are enjoyable. Write all the letters and angry forum posts you want about it, but so long as the kids love it (and they do) it won't do a thing. They really don't need "help" from people who have never managed a television network before in their life.

Honestly, must you attack every said thread made by unhappy viewers? We do have legitimate complaints, believe it or not. And must you always degrade it to an "It was better when I was young" argument? I honestly think, without an ounce of nostalgia, that CN is in a slum period. Not because of the lack of anything old (though I do think that's part of the problem). I didn't mind that the older toons went missing when the current ones were actually good. But right now, not only are there very few watchable toons, there's a severe lack of variety. Not to mention the whole live-action plague.

If you like it, fine. Go ahead and enjoy these stations as more and more toons either degrade or completely disappear. But I've seen a whole lot more people that are unhappy with CN's current state of being. And instead of just ranting on a forum once every few days, I'm actually going to do something about it, whether it's effective or not.

This post is to garner support from fellow animation fans. You can take your anti-nostalgia crusade elsewhere now, thankyouverymuch.

[BCVM22]

Honestly, do we really need 10 threads each in the Nickelodeon, CN, and Disney forums about people in their 20s complaining about children's television not being exactly the way they were when they were kids?

Kids like it, and that's all that matters. If you don't like it, find, but there's plenty of older people, like me, who think it's fine and the shows are enjoyable. Write all the letters and angry forum posts you want about it, but so long as the kids love it (and they do) it won't do a thing. They really don't need "help" from people who have never managed a television network before in their life.

Save your breath, it's been tried to no avail, no matter how true it all is.

[Antiyonder]

Honestly, do we really need 10 threads each in the Nickelodeon, CN, and Disney forums about people in their 20s complaining about children's television not being exactly the way they were when they were kids?

Nostalgia aside, there is a major difference between now and yesterday.

1. Variety
- While cliches were abundant, the shows in our day varied in setting. Today it's either main character being a kid or a school based show. Adult centric toons are far and few today for one.

The original three Nicktoons (Ren & Stimpy, Doug and Rugrats) while not groundbreaking we're different in settings and stories. While Rocko's Modern Life had similar aspects to Ren & Stimpy (Animalistic characters and grossout humor) the stories differed.

- Ninja Turtles and Transformers we're the Ed Edd and Eddy, Spongebob Squarepants of the day. Regardless, however, the network execs were wise in not letting them dominate the network. Schedules actually had something for everybody or at least tried.

I won't deny that viewers each have their own preference. That's what the networks go for. What I disagree with however, is the networks idea that their viewers are closeminded. Stubborn yes, but every now and then a viewer is bound to get into a show that doesn't fall in their favorite category (Drama, Comedy, Horror, Action, Mystery). I'm not much of a mystery fan, but I am a fan of the Case Closed manga/anime which features mysteries in every story.

Using my interest in comics for example to further explain my point. My preference is the super hero titles from Marvel and DC. But I collect many comics outside the category like Uncle Scrooge, Aishiteruze Baby and Kare Kano.

To put is simply, they need to stop underestimating their viewers. Put more shows on the line up, go outside the school setting.

2. Effort- Your attitude sums it up. The mindset today is, "If our shows are a hit, then we don't really have to put effort or hard work to run the network". Sorry, but no matter how good business is going they should give as best as they can rather than taking endless shortcuts (Overairing their hit shows for one). I'm not faulting them for wanting to make money, I'm faulting them for not trying to earn it. Making and earning are two different things.

That's partially why CN is going through with the live action stuff. Being that the majority of viewers relate to the live action characters, it takes little effort to draw in viewers.

They really don't need "help" from people who have never managed a television network before in their life.

Considering their ratings are behind Nick and Disney, that's faulty logic at the most.

Save your breath, it's been tried to no avail, no matter how true it all is.

I don't see a problem with wanting the network to actually work hard. I'm not saying that they were perfect in the 80s or 90s, but the point is they made some effort. Just because the target audience is considered braindead is no excuse for lack of effort.

[danreyes1]

Could the naysayers please just keep to themselves? This post isn't directed at you. You have your opinions, and we have ours. I'm trying to garner support. If you think that our efforts are ignorant and futile, then you really don't have anything to worry about.

[Eddy]

Honestly, do we really need 10 threads each in the Nickelodeon, CN, and Disney forums about people in their 20s complaining about children's television not being exactly the way they were when they were kids?

Kids like it, and that's all that matters. If you don't like it, find, but there's plenty of older people, like me, who think it's fine and the shows are enjoyable. Write all the letters and angry forum posts you want about it, but so long as the kids love it (and they do) it won't do a thing. They really don't need "help" from people who have never managed a television network before in their life.
Oh right, the kids love it. That's why the ratings have been so low, right?

[Marinite]

But right now, not only are there very few watchable toons, there's a severe lack of variety. Not to mention the whole live-action plague.

Who are you to decide what's watchable and what isn't? It's up to each and every individual person to decide that. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean other people don't. I'm sure a lot of people don't like Suite Life of Zack and Cody here, but the fact remains it's one of the most popular shows for kids between 5 - 17, which shows a lot of kids do like it.

1. Variety
- While cliches were abundant, the shows in our day varied in setting. Today it's either main character being a kid or a school based show. Adult centric toons are far and few today for one. Variety doesn't equal quality. Just because a show involves kids or a school doesn't mean it's going to be worse than a show that involves adults on the moon. If you prefer it, then fine, but keep in mind that the most beloved cartoons of the 80s and 90s (Transformers, Ninja Turtles, Dexter, Doug) involved kids, so apparently it didn't matter back then.

2. Effort- Your attitude sums it up. The mindset today is, "If our shows are a hit, then we don't really have to put effort or hard work to run the network". Sorry, but no matter how good business is going they should give as best as they can rather than taking endless shortcuts (Overairing their hit shows for one). I'm not faulting them for wanting to make money, I'm faulting them for not trying to earn it. Making and earning are two different things. How exactly does Dexter's Lab have more effort than Ed, Edd, and Eddy? Or Ninja Turtles have more effort than Avatar or the new Ninja Turtles?

Oh right, the kids love it. That's why the ratings have been so low, right? Were CN's ratings ever "high"? Compared to Disney's and Nickelodeon's, that is. Though I was mostly talking about Nick and Disney (since they were brought up)

[Antiyonder]

Variety doesn't equal quality. Just because a show involves kids or a school doesn't mean it's going to be worse than a show that involves adults on the moon. If you prefer it, then fine, but keep in mind that the most beloved cartoons of the 80s and 90s (Transformers, Ninja Turtles, Dexter, Doug) involved kids, so apparently it didn't matter back then.

I didn't say variety is the only thing that matters, but it's just as important. You have a particular favorite food right? Does that mean you eat nothing but that particular food item? There can and will be too much of a god thing.

And while there were kids in the shows you mentioned, it wasn't as much of an overkill as it is now.

How exactly does Dexter's Lab have more effort than Ed, Edd, and Eddy? Or Ninja Turtles have more effort than Avatar or the new Ninja Turtles?

I'm refering to more than just the show itself. Again, they didn't rely on a hit show as heavily as they do now.

Did Ninja Turtles air five times a day on a regular basis? Were the weekdays of the 80s-90s fillied with Transformers marathons?

And again, that's part of the reason for bring live action onto the network. Because cartoons have that just for kids sterotype, more effort is need for a cartoon to draw in a large audience. Live action shows require less effort, which is what they are going for.

Back then, the schedules had more programs to offer, with less the network space I might add.

Were CN's ratings ever "high"? Compared to Disney's and Nickelodeon's, that is. Though I was mostly talking about Nick and Disney (since they were brought up)

They probably weren't up there with Nick or Disney, but I'm guessing that the ones who ran the network at the time didn't care so much about beating them, but simply getting decent ratings. It's part of the increased expectations thing I mentioned earlier, which Disney and Nick are guilty of as well.

It's not enough to have successes, they have to be full blown fads too. That's the irony behind the success of Spongebob Squarepants, Fairly Oddparents and Ed Edd and Eddy. Both of those shows which today are hits, while successful back in the day as wel weren't the rating juggernauts they are now.

If they premiered today with the same turnout, they would get the boot from the networks in question.

And with Disney, I've proven that high expectations make it near impossbile for their animated programs to find success. During the 90s, they settled for mere success, not fads. In 2000 up to now they've increased expectations and lowered their patience for success. My proof is the number of successful shows (Shows that made it to 65 and over) VS failures:

90s shows
13 successful shows
8 unsuccessful canceled shows

2000s shows (including Jetix Originals)
2 successful shows
10 unsuccessful canceled shows

To further prove my point, take Chip N Dale Rescue Rangers and Tale Spin for instance. They didn't turn out the same amount out ratings as the big programs such as Ducktales, Darkwing Duck, Goof Troop and Aladdin. So why did they get to finish the run up to 65 episodes? Because they were at least successful.

[danreyes1]

Who are you to decide what's watchable and what isn't? It's up to each and every individual person to decide that. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean other people don't. I'm sure a lot of people don't like Suite Life of Zack and Cody here, but the fact remains it's one of the most popular shows for kids between 5 - 17, which shows a lot of kids do like it.

Did I ever say "everyone must have this opinion"? That is a personal complaint of mine, one others may or may not share. My main complaint with CN, more than how watchable the toons are, is about the variety in programming. Speaking of which...

Variety doesn't equal quality. Just because a show involves kids or a school doesn't mean it's going to be worse than a show that involves adults on the moon. If you prefer it, then fine, but keep in mind that the most beloved cartoons of the 80s and 90s (Transformers, Ninja Turtles, Dexter, Doug) involved kids, so apparently it didn't matter back then.

My complaint with variety on CN is the amount of toons they show rather than the setting. I've counted, and it really isn't that much. And they have the tendency to show the same cartoon many times per day. For example, Today, Camp Lazlo is being shown five times, accompanied by five showings of Fosters and six showings of Out of Jimmy's Head. That's almost half of CN's programming day (Adult Swim not included) filled up by just three shows. They're also showing two movies, taking up another three hours. The other twelve cartoons they play today are either in the morning when everyone's asleep or at work or school, or spread between the repeated shows to add a semblance of variety when there really isn't.

THAT is my main problem with CN. Not the quality of all the cartoons, not the lack of classic cartoons, or even the fact that they're showing live-action. Those all irk me to an extent, some more than others, but my main complaint about CN is seeing the same show repeated five times a day. If other networks aired cartoons regularly, it wouldn't matter as much. But since they don't (Disney has them relegated to a late night schedule and Nick doesn't care about cartoons that aren't about sponges or faeries), CN is the only place I can go to for cartoons, and I would very much like to tune into a cartoon that I didn't just see four other episodes of that day.

And a thought occurs to me: if you don't like these ranting posts, why do you read them? Does it really take that much effort to just ignore the fifteenth rant of the week?

[Lutochris]

Has anyone considered that maybe kids (and society in general) are gravitating away from cartoons? At least the kind of cartoons that CN used to air? With special effects today they can pretty much do anything in live action that they can do in animation. This decade we've seen more movies based on comic books, fantasy novels, and cartoons than at any point in movie history. If kids can see this type of stuff in live action, and it's actually good, what reason do they have for cartoons? Also, thanks to the Internet and cable/satellite, kids are much more likely to see a wide variety of things from various styles and cultures, as opposed to kids 10 years ago who just basically had Saturday mornings and after school cartoons, while everything else bored them. It's a lot harder to get kids excited about a new cartoon today than it was back then. And the networks are apparently not up to the task.

[Road Runner]

You're not going to believe what I found in the Alice Cahn thread!



What issues concern Cartoon Network's 2-17 target demo?



CN's not "just for kids".

[Marinite]

I didn't say variety is the only thing that matters, but it's just as important. You have a particular favorite food right? Does that mean you eat nothing but that particular food item? There can and will be too much of a god thing. Yes, but that applies more towards a certain show rather than certain elements. The elements of being kids or being at school would be more like ingredients than actual finished dishes.

Did Ninja Turtles air five times a day on a regular basis? Were the weekdays of the 80s-90s fillied with Transformers marathons? You're comparing broadcast cartoons to cable cartoons. We don't air The Batman, Johnny Test, Get a Clue Scooby Doo all the time, because they're broadcast and only air on Saturdays, like most cartoons from the 80s. This was back before Nickelodeon and the like were household names like they are now.

And again, that's part of the reason for bring live action onto the network. Because cartoons have that just for kids sterotype, more effort is need for a cartoon to draw in a large audience. Live action shows require less effort, which is what they are going for. Again, what "effort"? I'd imagine it takes more effort to get real people to do what you want and negotiate contracts and scenes with them than it does to draw a picture.

It's not enough to have successes, they have to be full blown fads too. That's the irony behind the success of Spongebob Squarepants, Fairly Oddparents and Ed Edd and Eddy. Both of those shows which today are hits, while successful back in the day as wel weren't the rating juggernauts they are now. Again, different market. Children's television wasn't as big back then as it is now. We have over 10 channels dedicated to children's television pretty much all day, which means we have a lot more slots to fill than before. Back then it wasn't as competitive as it is these days. When Disney throws up some of the biggest ratings grabbing shows for cable, the other networks have to fight back. The early 90s may have been a cold-war, but now we're at Channel War 3 more or less.

To further prove my point, take Chip N Dale Rescue Rangers and Tale Spin for instance. They didn't turn out the same amount out ratings as the big programs such as Ducktales, Darkwing Duck, Goof Troop and Aladdin. So why did they get to finish the run up to 65 episodes? Because they were at least successful. Again, less competition and an entirely different era with less channels.

And a thought occurs to me: if you don't like these ranting posts, why do you read them? Does it really take that much effort to just ignore the fifteenth rant of the week? It's a bit hard when every other topic seems to be about bashing the network, or a topic that eventually degrades into bashing the network.

--target 2-17 demographic?

CN's not "just for kids". Yes, Nick and Disney have been aiming for 2 - 17 for awhile now. Makes sense CN would try to match them.

Also, anyone under 18 is a kid, technically.

[codyjones2105]

Has anyone considered that maybe kids (and society in general) are gravitating away from cartoons? At least the kind of cartoons that CN used to air? With special effects today they can pretty much do anything in live action that they can do in animation. This decade we've seen more movies based on comic books, fantasy novels, and cartoons than at any point in movie history. If kids can see this type of stuff in live action, and it's actually good, what reason do they have for cartoons? Also, thanks to the Internet and cable/satellite, kids are much more likely to see a wide variety of things from various styles and cultures, as opposed to kids 10 years ago who just basically had Saturday mornings and after school cartoons, while everything else bored them. It's a lot harder to get kids excited about a new cartoon today than it was back then. And the networks are apparently not up to the task.


That's probably it, too...very interesting point you've made here.

When done correctly, if special effects were used to help enhance a live action show to make it better, it can very well be doable. That's something Out of Jimmy's Head lacks, which is one reason out of many why some viewers may not like it as much as they would other types of shows.

I know many of us here are having trouble embracing change. If CN wants to have one or two live-action shows that are creative, well-written and have a solid plot that viewers can relate to, that would probably be fine.

I do think though, that CN and other networks could get kids and many of us older animation fans excited about a cartoon if it was more original and fun. Cartoons should still exist for those of us that enjoy them. With more live-action appearing, many people are fearing that cartoons may disappear eventually. I think animation and live action can both be embraced by all audiences no matter what the age as long as it's good, quality fun for everyone.

If we can have a balance between the two, everyone can still have what they want, including the networks. :)

[danreyes1]

It's a bit hard when every other topic seems to be about bashing the network, or a topic that eventually degrades into bashing the network.

There's a button in the upper left corner of your web browser. It looks like and arrow pointing left. If you click it, you will go back one full page, and it will be like the rant never existed =)

Now, as for bashing the network, I really don't think I'm doing that here. I'm saying I'm unhappy with it is as it is now, and I intend to do something about that. In other words, the network doesn't necessarily suck, it just can do a lot better than it is now. All in my humble opinion, of course.

But as long as the network exists, there will be someone out there who isn't happy with it. This goes for any network at any point in time. So there will always be someone ranting.

[Master Toon]

Has anyone considered that maybe kids (and society in general) are gravitating away from cartoons?

But it's Cartoon Network.

At least the kind of cartoons that CN used to air? With special effects today they can pretty much do anything in live action that they can do in animation. But it's Cartoon Network.

This decade we've seen more movies based on comic books, fantasy novels, and cartoons than at any point in movie history. If kids can see this type of stuff in live action, and it's actually good, what reason do they have for cartoons?But it's Cartoon Network.

Also, thanks to the Internet and cable/satellite, kids are much more likely to see a wide variety of things from various styles and cultures, as opposed to kids 10 years ago who just basically had Saturday mornings and after school cartoons, while everything else bored them.But it's Cartoon Network.

It's a lot harder to get kids excited about a new cartoon today than it was back then. And the networks are apparently not up to the task. But it's Cartoon Network.

I know you think you were being clever but we're not talking about any ol' channel, we're talking about Cartoon Network. Answer me this, Lutochris and anyone else who wants live action on Cartoon Network, if I had a store called The Cake Store and I advertised that I sold nothing but cakes and then a few years later, I start selling shoes. Someone asks me, 'why are you selling shoes?' and I say, 'Because people who like cakes, like shoes too. Would that make sense? Who goes to a Cake Store to buy shoes? Who turns to a music channel to watch reality dating, who turns to a gaming channel to see cars, who turns to a cartoon channel to see live action?

[Blackstar]

Has anyone considered that maybe kids (and society in general) are gravitating away from cartoons? At least the kind of cartoons that CN used to air?

Yeah, that's the reason. That's why so many animation themed websites like this one are still very much alive.

With special effects today they can pretty much do anything in live action that they can do in animation.And special effects are also much more expensive to make happen than it would be to simply draw them. What's your point?

This decade we've seen more movies based on comic books, fantasy novels, and cartoons than at any point in movie history.Again, what's your point?

If kids can see this type of stuff in live action, and it's actually good, what reason do they have for cartoons? If you're so anti-cartoons, then what, may I ask are you even doing here at Toon Zone?

Also, thanks to the Internet and cable/satellite, kids are much more likely to see a wide variety of things from various styles and cultures, as opposed to kids 10 years ago who just basically had Saturday mornings and after school cartoons, while everything else bored them. It's a lot harder to get kids excited about a new cartoon today than it was back then. And the networks are apparently not up to the task.Please. You kids kill me with your talk of "USAnimation is dead. Anime is the way to go!" Anime has been around for over 50 years, and it's been shown in the U.S. for more than 30 years. If anime were truly "taking over", don't you think that it would have happened by now?

Anyway, the fact that all of the major networks are still showing cartoons on Saturday morning and the fact that PBS is still producing animated (non anime) programs and the fact that Nickelodeon consistently gets much ratings than CN and shows no anime at all suggests that USAnimation isn't even close to going away. If cartoons were really as unpopular as you claim them to be, then why are so many of the features aimed at kids and families animated? You may think that you've made a point here, but I have young cousins who occasionally visit me, and if I want to keep them occupied for about an hour or so, all I have to do is turn the TV set to (wait for it) a CARTOON! My point: kids (and adults also, for that matter) still watch cartoons. Everyone of here at Toon Zone still watch cartoons, and most of us are over the age of 10. Thus your "point" is disproven.

[Antiyonder]

Yes, but that applies more towards a certain show rather than certain elements. The elements of being kids or being at school would be more like ingredients than actual finished dishes.

But those ingredients as you put it are a major factor of the show. Answer me this at least, do you agree or disagree that there can be too much of a good thing?

Even worse is when they put recent/current programs on their satelite/digital networks. If you're willing to air it on Network A (Cartoon Network, Disney Channel and Nickelodeon), then it has no business being on Network B (Boomerang, Toon Disney and Nicktoons).

Let me put it this way, eventually when a channel (basic/cable/satelite) is limited to two programs airing 12 hours a day, then even the most devoted younger viewer will turn their backs on the network.

You're comparing broadcast cartoons to cable cartoons. We don't air The Batman, Johnny Test, Get a Clue Scooby Doo all the time, because they're broadcast and only air on Saturdays, like most cartoons from the 80s. This was back before Nickelodeon and the like were household names like they are now.

And yet it seemed like there were more particular programs when there were less slots for them. Where as today there are more slots, yet less titles.

For instance, back when Warner Bros/Turner had only one channel dedicated towards cartoons (Cartoon Network), while there were some repeats, you did have a diverse amount of titles. I'd say 24-48 programs.

So with two channels dedicated towards cartoons (CN and Boomerang) we should have about 50-96 cartoons on the air from the company. Yet do to CN's decision to overplayed their shows, it seems we only get 30-49 toons at the most between two networks.

Again, what "effort"? I'd imagine it takes more effort to get real people to do what you want and negotiate contracts and scenes with them than it does to draw a picture.

One advantage live action programs have is that they do not carry the stigmatisim of being kid stuff. So which do you imagine would require more effort to garner interests? I imagine that cartoons would be viewed as much as live action programs if not for the whole taunting and teasing.

Again, different market. Children's television wasn't as big back then as it is now. We have over 10 channels dedicated to children's television pretty much all day, which means we have a lot more slots to fill than before. Back then it wasn't as competitive as it is these days. When Disney throws up some of the biggest ratings grabbing shows for cable, the other networks have to fight back. The early 90s may have been a cold-war, but now we're at Channel War 3 more or less.

Again, less competition and an entirely different era with less channels.

Ok, so success is more essential than before, but there's no denying that they get carried away with it. Nickelodeon for instances has three hit toons (Spongebob, Fairly Oddparents and Avatar), shouldn't the profit and the ratings from those shows allow a little leeway for shows like Wayside to be a mild success?

Even then, we're always told that patience is essential in life for success whether pertaining to relationships or business. So doesn't the same thing hold true for networks?

Yes, Nick and Disney have been aiming for 2 - 17 for awhile now. Makes sense CN would try to match them.

And yet, their attempts have yet to blow the ratings sky high. Only Nickelodeon can be Nickelodeon, only Disney can be Disney.

[Silverstar]

Has anyone considered that maybe kids (and society in general) are gravitating away from cartoons? At least the kind of cartoons that CN used to air?

If people are truly 'gravitating away from cartoons (excluding, I assume by your previous posts, anime) or at least the kind of cartoons that CN used to air', then why are boards like this flooded with people complaining how they wish CN would go back to being the Cartoon Network that they used to watch religiously and fondly, and why are so many people wanting to get Boomerang?

I can't argue that digital cable, satellite and DVD have lessened the availability of so-called 'classic' cartoon viewing on broadcast television, but suggesting that live-action is on the verge of replacing animation is, pardon the expression, ludicrous. You and your ilk may prefer live-action and anime, but let's face facts: the special effects that you're talking about are far more expensive and time-consuming to produce in live-action than they are to do in animation, where said effects can simply be drawn, and anime is a niche market. Yes, you heard me right: anime is a niche market. It's following is eclectic, cult at best. Anime is not the be-all, end-all of entertainment, it's just one genre of entertainment, no more likely to take over and become the norm than CGI. It's just another way of presenting a story, that's all.

The truth is that for every person in your camp that's 'through with cartoons', there are an equal amount of people who still prefer them over anime and live-action. The reason that these shows have disappeared from CN has nothing to do with fans gravitating away from them; it's because CN of late has been purposely aiming their programming at kids aged 7-12. Older viewers don't matter in CN's eyes anymore because they don't stay glued to the tube all day and they don't throw away their good money on Yogos, Honeycomb cereal and the stuff CN shills on its' website. CN wants Disney and Nick ratings and revenues, so that's who they're tailoring their network toward. It's not that people don't care about cartoons anymore, it's that CN doesn't care about animation fans anymore because that's not where they feel the money's at. Older cartoons don't matter that much to kids because they didn't grow up with those shows and therefore have no nostalgic attachment to them. Kids aren't longing for these shows, but they are far from not being sought after by many. Believe it.

[codyjones2105]

Hm...I believe these new points are making me re-think what I've said earlier.

Live-action shows probably should have their own separate place that's just not CN. I guess my reasoning behind what I said earlier is that if CN has to have live-action, it should be something decent and creative, not nonsensical like OOJH is. My wording in my earlier post was very confusing regarding that, and I apologize.

My real feeling about it, however, is that CN over the years has become a mecca for great animation that anyone at any age can watch. That tradition is being given up for cheaper shows that will give this network some quick money. Even if OOJH, or Tak on Nickelodeon, for examples, were to have only one season, these two networks are still making money.

I've been searching for where I think the best position is for me to stand, which is why I've sort-of been in the middle, or indecisive. But I believe what you've said, Silverstar, has opened my horizons quite a bit. I think your response has helped me to find a better place to stand on the subject, and I am in compete agreement with your statements regarding CN.

You guys as a whole are pretty much right--CN should focus somewhat more on animation and not so much on bad shows. They desperately need a hit from all the stuff I've seen on there lately...I can just only hope that something may change in the future.

[Master Moron]

Anyway, the fact that all of the major networks are still showing cartoons on Saturday morning and the fact that PBS is still producing animated (non anime) programs and the fact that Nickelodeon consistently gets much ratings than CN and shows no anime at all suggests that USAnimation isn't even close to going away. If cartoons were really as unpopular as you claim them to be, then why are so many of the features aimed at kids and families animated? You may think that you've made a point here, but I have young cousins who occasionally visit me, and if I want to keep them occupied for about an hour or so, all I have to do is turn the TV set to (wait for it) a CARTOON! My point: kids (and adults also, for that matter) still watch cartoons. Everyone of here at Toon Zone still watch cartoons, and most of us are over the age of 10. Thus your "point" is disproven.

Okay, first of all, where did Lutochris mention anime in his post? I'm not sure I really want to get into another anime v. cartoons debate, but I have to say, American action cartoons pretty much have gone away. I mean, the only ones I can think of that are currently still in production are Ninja Turtles, The Batman, Avatar, Legion of Superheroes, and Ben 10. I'm sure there's some I'm missing, but for the most part the American action cartoon is dead.

[William C. Maune]

But it's Cartoon Network.

Every one of us gets that. However, that doesn't mean Lutochris isn't brining interesting thoughts to the discussion as he tries to look at the larger issues. It'd be nice if you all could have an actual discussion about this instead of one side shouting down the other.

Note: My response isn't just to Master Toon, but to others as well. Calling people "anti-cartoons" because they happen to have a different opinion isn't getting us anywhere.

[danreyes1]

Really, the point of this thread wasn't "Cartoon Network sucks", it was "I'm unhappy, and I'm doing something about it, and if you agree with me, you can help too" You like CN, fine, you don't have to help. You agree with me, thanks, you can help. Neither side is ever going to change their mind, really.

Maybe this board should be divided into "Happy CN viewers" and "Unhappy CN viewers"

On completely off topic, I just got Digital Cable. Huzzah for Boomerang on Demand! Now if only it would become a regular channel.

[William C. Maune]

it was "I'm unhappy, and I'm doing something about it, and if you agree with me, you can help too"

And to that I do want to note, whether I agree with your stance or not (Not saying I don't or do), I definitely encourage you or anyone else to write letters expressing your views. The key is simply to make sure it is well written and respectful. If there is ever something a viewer is concerned about, a well-written letter is generally always the best action to take.

[Lutochris]

Thanks William, I certainly wasn't trying to appear "anti-cartoon", and I wasn't even trying to say "anime is taking over". Although I didn't actually say "anime" in my post, I admit I was kind of implying it when I said "other cultures". But there's a reason I said that instead of "anime". It's because I didn't want to sound like I was saying that anime was taking over, apparently that was futile though.

What I was trying to say was that, with so many options being targeted at kids today, whether it's live-action fantasy, anime, or otherwise, kids have a lot more options and a much broader outlook than kids 30, 20, or even 10 years ago. As such, it's a lot more challenging to create a cartoon that truly excites them enough to make a point to come back and watch every week. And when you look at how successful stuff like Avatar, Teen Titans, and Ben 10 are, as well as several anime shows, it would appear that kids are starting to gravitate towards stuff with a generally more serious undertone to it, or at least stuff that's a bit more challenging to the viewer than a talking sponge. Before anime the only cartoons that had that were some of the comic book based shows, most of which have since been turned into high-budget, modern special effects packed live action movies.

Also, on the point that a couple people made that people flooding toon websites like these, complaining about CN, somehow proves I'm wrong - uh, I'm gonna have to say that the ratings of networks watched by millions of people are a better indicator than websites visited regularly by a few hundred.

[Antiyonder]

What I was trying to say was that, with so many options being targeted at kids today, whether it's live-action fantasy, anime, or otherwise, kids have a lot more options and a much broader outlook than kids 30, 20, or even 10 years ago. As such, it's a lot more challenging to create a cartoon that truly excites them enough to make a point to come back and watch every week. And when you look at how successful stuff like Avatar, Teen Titans, and Ben 10 are, as well as several anime shows, it would appear that kids are starting to gravitate towards stuff with a generally more serious undertone to it, or at least stuff that's a bit more challenging to the viewer than a talking sponge. Before anime the only cartoons that had that were some of the comic book based shows, most of which have since been turned into high-budget, modern special effects packed live action movies.

Also, on the point that a couple people made that people flooding toon websites like these, complaining about CN, somehow proves I'm wrong - uh, I'm gonna have to say that the ratings of networks watched by millions of people are a better indicator than websites visited regularly by a few hundred.

Understandable, but then why would these people watch a network meant for 24 hours of cartoon? If they were losing interest, wouldn't they watch a network lite on or devoid of animation?

Besides, I stand by my decision that those who don't view animation do more out of peer pressure. Meaning that society rules frown upon anyone over the age of 12 that enjoys cartoons. And given that kids tend to grow up sooner these days (or try to) they probably ditch cartoons to look cool.

In my opinion, if society ditch the cartoons for kids sterotype, then the medium would be viewed as much as say a soap opera or a ball game.

[Polychrome]

I'm usually an optimist. Even right now, I enjoy CN quite a bit, and get plenty of fun out of Ben 10, Code Lyoko, Billy and Mandy, Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends, Naruto, etc...

Heck, even ReAnimated wasn't the horrible catastrophe that everyone makes it out to be. I used to be a huge Disney fan, so I loved watching a parody of all the weird urban legends surrounding him. And hey, I have to admit I'm looking forward to that Ben 10 live action flick.

But I think this recent announcement of a certain pilot crosses a line for me, and I think I can safely say that I'm not alone there.

Cartoon Network is an oasis for those of us who enjoy animation as a medium. By dumping those roots, they dump a good chunk of their audience. Whether they want to admit it or not, adults are not bounded by Adult Swim.

If they're going to keep Cartoon Network at the top, then what they need to realize is that changing the medium isn't going to magically fix things. The audience simply wants a few more *animated* shows of better quality and variety.

If you want to start a letter-writing campaign, don't let anybody here stop you.

[Antiyonder]

I really do feel that this would make for a nice topic to address.

Now we've been told that the reason for Live Action programs are for ratings and profit. Basically because they want to keep up with Nickelodeon and The Disney Channel. For that reason I almost could believe the execs are just doing business, no biased feelings.

So why am I not convinced? Some have defended the network's decision for the following reasons, reasons that don't hold up:

1. Ratings/profit: While the live action movies have increased the ratings a tad, they are still behind Disney Channel and Nickelodeon. Even with Goosebumps and OOJH, the ratings are still behind. Yet they think live action shows will magically solve their problems.

2. Diversity: Yes the network needs to have more diversity like some have said, but live action isn't really necessary for that either. The way to increase diversity would be to do some cartoons that both:
A. Devoid of a school setting.
B. Center on an adult character.

Bringing Toonami back on weekdays would be a start for some diversity.

You might argue that kids like school shows and nothing but school shows, but if that's true, then CN's rating issues would be nonexistent correct?

[Sketch]

I think it's a little bit of both.

They very much personally believe that live action will deal with their proffessional problems... or something along those lines.

That's why they promote Goosebumps heavily when they have so little to gain from airing it.

[.bg]

Neither of those reasons.

It's for the money.

[Lazerboy5000]

Neither of those reasons.

It's for the money.
You're probably right.

[NintyScreen]

Neither of those reasons.

It's for the money.

After all, according to the Guinness World Records, Time-Warner is considered to be the largest media corporation, having $131.67 billion. Since CN is part of Time-Warner, then that could be part of your opinion.

[Wanted]

Then why does TW act so broke with the Turner networks? Ads on-screen during programming on TBS? Cheap 10-year-old programming on Cartoon Network? ...being promoted as if it were new, at that.

[Antiyonder]

I figured that money and ratings go hand in hand, or profits as they are called.

Look, if live action was solely being used to draw in profits/ratings then there are other means to do so. I've suggested such a method to do so. I'll recap it here in the following steps:

1. Acquire or air an available cartoon on Cartoon Network that was adapted into a live action movie or was infact based off a live action movie.

2. Air a movie such as The Mask, Back To The Future 1-3, The Flintstones on a TW network that would be available to many like TBS for instance. Whichever network is highly common and has younger viewers tuning in.

3. Between commercial breaks and during the credit, advertise the airing of the cartoon related to the movie.

For instance: After say Back To The Future Part 3, leave an add stating "Be sure to catch Back To The Future The Animated Series weekends on Cartoon Network at 8:00 AM/9:00 AM Central."

Or: After The Flintstones movie, "Be sure to catch The Flintstones on weekdays on Cartoon Network at 9:00 PM/10:00 PM Central."

Surely this idea would have came up when discussing ways to increase viewership. This thread has a list of shows I feel could help the concept:
http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=197771

[Dr.Pepper]

I think its all for the ratings and doing a bad job of it.

[Taylor Karras]

Yes, Obviously for Ratings.

[Antiyonder]

Yes, Obviously for Ratings.

If that were true, wouldn't they notice that their attempts to bring live action shows on the schedule have yet to beat Nickelodeon's ratings?

[William C. Maune]

Even with Goosebumps and OOJH, the ratings are still behind.

Something to keep in mind, whether its Goosebumps or the solutions you propose, nothing is going to suddenly vault them ahead of Nick or Disney, and I doubt that is the short term goal. I have no doubt that is the long term goal, but ratings have to increase over time to get there. There is no solution that will turn Cartoon Network's ratings around overnight.

[Antiyonder]

Something to keep in mind, whether its Goosebumps or the solutions you propose, nothing is going to suddenly vault them ahead of Nick or Disney, and I doubt that is the short term goal. I have no doubt that is the long term goal, but ratings have to increase over time to get there. There is no solution that will turn Cartoon Network's ratings around overnight.

True, but they've canceled shows before just because they weren't a quick success. So why are they showing patience now all of a sudden?

[William C. Maune]

True, but they've canceled shows before just because they weren't a quick success. So why are they showing patience now all of a sudden?

Generally it wasn't so much that the shows weren't a quick success, it was that the ratings were really bad for those shows. In the case of the current shows, they may not be a huge success at this point, but they do seem to be getting decent ratings.

Edit: I dunno how it has done since, but the premiere of Out of Jimmy's Head drew 1.4 million (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/news/e3i2456bfa8a8b3972f992ec1458a9aefb1) viewers. It may not be Nick/Disney numbers, but its good compared to Cartoon Network's usual numbers.

[Antiyonder]

Generally it wasn't so much that the shows weren't a quick success, it was that the ratings were really bad for those shows. In the case of the current shows, they may not be a huge success at this point, but they do seem to be getting decent ratings.

But surely they would find other means to get the ratings before resorting to live action. For instance, cartoons like Underdog and Alvin and The Chipmunks have been made/are being made into live action movies. So would it not be benefitial to air the cartoons that inspired those movie?

And there's the idea I came up with which is again airing some cartoons based off a live action movie.

Both of those methods could easily help the ratings if they bothered to try them.

I'm still pretty sure they go for top ratings rather than decent, otherwise they wouldn't resort to the many marathons they've done over the summer.

[William C. Maune]

But surely they would find other means to get the ratings before resorting to live action. For instance, cartoons like Underdog and Alvin and The Chipmunks have been made/are being made into live action movies. So would it not be benefitial to air the cartoons that inspired those movie?

And there's the idea I came up with which is again airing some cartoons based off a live action movie.

Perhaps, but the Underdog movie didn't do very well and thus I don't think the Underdog cartoon would really do any better than normal. Similarly, there hasn't exactly been a lot of good buzz regarding the Alvin and the Chipmunks movie. I don't think these methods would help ratings as easily as you think. If there were easy answers they'd be using them.

I'm still pretty sure they go for top ratings rather than decent, otherwise they wouldn't resort to the many marathons they've done over the summer.

The marathons didn't top Nick or Disney either though, just like everything else they are simply attempts to improve Cartoon Network's own ratings from where they have been. Plus, its just a traditional summer thing. They've been doing this as far back as I can remember with Cartoon Cartoon Summer and such.

[Antiyonder]

Perhaps, but the Underdog movie didn't do very well and thus I don't think the Underdog cartoon would really do any better than normal. Similarly, there hasn't exactly been a lot of good buzz regarding the Alvin and the Chipmunks movie. I don't think these methods would help ratings as easily as you think. If there were easy answers they'd be using them.

True there's no guarantee it would work, but they've never tried to my knowledge to hype a movie with available cartoons. Like with Batman Begins and Superman Returns, I'm sure at least that Batman The Animated Series and Superman would have done the ratings good. Infact, considering that Justice League featured both on a regular basis, I'd question why they haven't tried airing the episode heavily centering on both teaming up.

And while the marathons are summer, they still do an unnecessary number of repeats. Granted my ideas aren't a sure thing, but they wouldn't hurt the network either.

Even then I still find a flaw in their decision to air live action on the network. Despite the live action movies, The Disney Channel and Nickelodeon have much more at their desposal. So if cartoons were really falling out of favor, then wouldn't the target demo stop tuning into CN altogether? Somehow I don't believe the execs took that into consideration.

[William C. Maune]

True there's no guarantee it would work, but they've never tried to my knowledge to hype a movie with available cartoons. Like with Batman Begins and Superman Returns, I'm sure at least that Batman The Animated Series and Superman would have done the ratings good. Infact, considering that Justice League featured both on a regular basis, I'd question why they haven't tried airing the episode heavily centering on both teaming up.

Part of the problem is that Warner Bros. doesn't work with them at all. Crosspromoting the animated series with the movies could work, but it would require participation from both ends and Warner Bros. has rarely shown any interest in such a thing.

So if cartoons were really falling out of favor, then wouldn't the target demo stop tuning into CN altogether? Somehow I don't believe the execs took that into consideration.

There are few absolutes. Even if something falls out of favor it doesn't become entirely unfavorable. Instead it just means that something else is currently more in favor that whatever is out of favor. There will always be folks who still like what is out of favor, its just that there will be more who enjoy what is in favor.

[Antiyonder]

Part of the problem is that Warner Bros. doesn't work with them at all. Crosspromoting the animated series with the movies could work, but it would require participation from both ends and Warner Bros. has rarely shown any interest in such a thing.

Jeff mentioned that in his comment on the network. Just what is the problem Time Warner has with Turner? Infact as Jeff's comment shows, the lack of live action had nothing to do with the low ratings from CN. He said:

There's a perfectly good reason why Nickelodeon is successful.

Viacom loves this network.
It's not just the money thing. It's not even the large audience the network brings in. Viacom shows Nickelodeon much love by allowing the network that began life as a small Ohio-based local network owned by Warner Amex (a group owned by American Express and Warner Communications, which later became . . . Time Warner [I'll talk about that connection in a future article]) to grow into a global powerhouse. When Nickelodeon wanted to launch spinoff networks, Viacom let them (TV Land, Noggin/The N, Nickelodeon GAS, and Nicktoons). Nickelodeon has access to the entire Paramount Studios library at any time, which is how TV Land aired animated versions of Paramount shows years ago. As a result, Nickelodeon shows growth in all aspects and remains the most-watched cable network in the US. Time Warner really doesn't have the same love or reverence for Cartoon Network that Viacom has for Nickelodeon. Cartoon Network have to virtually beg to accomplish things. They have to pay to acquire programming from the Warner Bros. library, which is mindboggling. They can't air the restored Looney Tunes cartoons on their network. They have to manage aspects of the Kids' WB block and conform their own lineup to not compete with Kids' WB's. That's how Toonami lost its 4 PM starting time twice in three years and that's why Looney Tunes disappeared from Saturday mornings. And even though Cartoon Network's highest rated shows are aimed towards older kids, teens, and young adults, Time Warner still has this belief that Cartoon Network is, like Nickelodeon, a kids network even though from day one, that was never the case.

[William C. Maune]

Jeff mentioned that in his comment on the network. Just what is the problem Time Warner has with Turner?

It's not really a problem specifically between TimeWarner and Turner. Instead it has more to do with the culture at TimeWarner in general. Whereas other companies (Viacom, Fox, etc.) embrace synergy to combine their various assets for greater profits, TimeWarner takes the opposite approach. Under TimeWarner's approach each division works independently to perform the best that it can.

Both approaches have their advantages and disadvantages. With the synergy approach, one division may take a hit at times in order to help out another division. With the TimeWarner approach, the various divisions don't have to worry about each other when trying to earn a profit for their own division. The side effect of this is unlike some of TimeWarner's other divisions, Cartoon Network's two main competitors are heavily subsidized/synergized by their corporate counterparts. Thus, what may work well for some of TimeWarner's divisions, doesn't work well with Cartoon Network (contrast this with Adult Swim which doesn't have this problem as much due to its differing competition).

Here's an interesting article on Time Warner and synergy:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06153/695235-28.stm

[John Dorian]

And that's why they don't really work with each other. A split would be nice.


AOL, and Time Warner Cable being public, with TW still having a small equity stake in AOL and TWC.


And TW keeping Time Inc., Warner Bros. Entertainment, Turner Broadcasting, HBO, and New Line Cinema.

[hobbyfan]

The rationale for live-action on CN (and for Toon Disney running Power Rangers reruns, for that matter) is simply ratings. It's also about corporate synergy, Will Maune's argument to the contrary.

Case in point--movies like Small Soldiers, which earn berths on CN because of "animatronic" characters (the action figures). That's a cheap way of getting the film on a network where it doesn't belong. Small Soldiers aired on CN to help fulfill TBS/TNT's contract for the number of times it could air the movie.

Addressing Antiyonder's other thread, CN has run Ozzy & Drix and the film that spawned the spin-off, Osmosis Jones. While Jumanji (w/Robin Williams) has aired on TBS & TNT several times, CN doesn't own the cartoon, which originally aired on UPN. Ditto the Back to the Future movies. CN doesn't own the cartoon, which last aired on Fox a few years back as a mid-season replacement.

The suits don't care about what's right for CN/Boomerang and/or the viewers. All they care about is how much money they can make. That's the biggest problem with all corporations. They worry more about profit margins than common sense.

[Antiyonder]

Still, as many have said, they would have more chance at better rattings if they would air more titles on the network rather than the encore of the same programs. Frankly I don't see what they would have to lose because:

A. Because their ratings are low enough as it is, so there's no risk of them losing credibility.

B. Long shot but didn't the original Coca Cola soda sell extremely well after the failure of New Coke? The same could apply to the ratings right? You know if a more diverse schedule doesn't succeed then they go back to the usual one and get more ratings than usual.

The rationale for live-action on CN (and for Toon Disney running Power Rangers reruns, for that matter) is simply ratings. It's also about corporate synergy, Will Maune's argument to the contrary.


I believe Power Rangers presence on Toon Disney is that they don't see it as a Disney Channel show since it is a more boy centric show.

[Martianinvader]

Part of the problem is that Warner Bros. doesn't work with them at all. Crosspromoting the animated series with the movies could work, but it would require participation from both ends and Warner Bros. has rarely shown any interest in such a thing.
You know what I find really strange about all this? Warner will not crosspromote with Turner Networks, but they will crosspromote with DC...a lot. They have brought us loud adaptions of DC properties since they first bought the company and they show no signs of stopping.

So what's with giving so many privileges to one thing you own and completely ignoring another?

[RayChuang]

You know what I find really strange about all this? Warner will not crosspromote with Turner Networks, but they will crosspromote with DC...a lot. They have brought us loud adaptions of DC properties since they first bought the company and they show no signs of stopping.

So what's with giving so many privileges to one thing you own and completely ignoring another?

Warner have cross-promoted with DC Comics since the two companies merged back in 1969. That's why Kids WB is showing several animated series based on DC Comics properties, and Warner Brothers is the movie company that has done the Superman and Batman movies.

[John Dorian]

DC Comics is part of Warner Bros. Entertainment, an unit of Time Warner.

[YoshiAngemon]

Jeez. If anything, since Batman and Superman are airing on Jetix, on Toon Disney, it won't be long until the Teen Titans join up with Jetix!

Of course, If Cartoon Network is trying to "Get with the times," they're probably doing it really badly! Just replace Cartoon Network with a 4Kids TV Network, if you want to watch bad programming, LUFFY-BRAIN!

[DrTooth]

If that were true, wouldn't they notice that their attempts to bring live action shows on the schedule have yet to beat Nickelodeon's ratings?

Well, we have basically a board of 50 year old out of touch men trying to be him. You know those people who are old, white, and use rap teminology in a lame attempt of being hip? TV execs all. They think it will be a hit, but it really won't. They'll wonder what went wrong, and they'll come up with the wrong solution. That's how corporations run. They make huge mistakes, and run with whatever money they have.

I'm pleased as heck that these shows are behind in the ratings. Why watch an inferior copy of something when you can watch the real thing? Give people an alternative.

[danreyes1]

My letter has been written, stamped and sent. If you're with me, now's the time to strike.

[DrTooth]

Honestly, do we really need 10 threads each in the Nickelodeon, CN, and Disney forums about people in their 20s complaining about children's television not being exactly the way they were when they were kids?

Kids like it, and that's all that matters. If you don't like it, find, but there's plenty of older people, like me, who think it's fine and the shows are enjoyable. Write all the letters and angry forum posts you want about it, but so long as the kids love it (and they do) it won't do a thing. They really don't need "help" from people who have never managed a television network before in their life.

I complain, myself as a cartoonist trying to break into the biz. Less cartoons on TV, less demand for cartoons. Less demand for cartoons, less work for cartoonists. I already live in an animation studio-less part of the state as it is (I really gotta ask around about Soup 2 Nuts), and the only way to go is to plunk down several hundred dollars on a Flash program, Several hunderd dollars on web site design programs, and I don't know how much on a domain name. And I am not at that stage yet.

Now, I can take crappy cartoons because they at least are cartoons. I do not have cable (and please don't point out the irony of someone without cable complaining about a cable channel he can't watch anyway, I'm well aware of it) and I really doubt I want it now.

Cn's heads have been making bad choices, including the ATHF "terrorist" scare (that went unnoticed for weeks). And the person behind that one was fired...errr... resigned on his own accord. However, taking a Cartoon Network for cartoons (doesn't matter the demographic) and skewing it to air terrible programming that no one will watch in an attempt to grab people watching stuff that will go out of fashion by the end of next year should be a fireable offense.

With cable there are so many choices for kids. 3 different channels. That's like saying Lifetime is the only channel that gets good ratings, and having all the other channels turning into networks that show nothing but whiney movies biased...errr...based off actual events. I mean, we are told as kids, "Just be yourself," by these companies. This is hypocritical.

Does anyone remember what happened to NBC in the 90's? After 1992, they switched to an all "Saved by the Bell is a hit, so let's make more shows exactly like it" line up. They followed that for a few years, and people stopped watching. It's qubo now.

I can't even just be mad at Time Warner. All these companies seem to just want to throw in the towel and not even try to compete. look at the weekday line up. nothing but Judge shows. Instead of coming up with something bold an new, they follow everyone else to oblivion. And when something they do that is clever and in anyway entertaining, if it isn't an instant hit, it gets killed right away. Seinfeld, if it was created today, would have been cancelled for good. NBC was actually quite patient with it, and look how successful it became. There's no patience anymore.

[PeppeRaskell1]

I don't know if any of you older kids remember this, but in its early days, there WAS one live-action show on CN, and it was one that had Carrot Top as a host. (Can't remember the show's name off the top of my head, but it had Carrot Top doing sketches--I just vaguely remember one where he dressed up wearing the kind of stuff baby Bamm-Bamm would wear.)

Also, does anyone remember when CN had a Danger Island marathon?
(That was the live-action serial which the Two Stupid Dogs said was their favorite cartoon!)

[DrTooth]

Actually, when we heard about the Carrot Top show, we got out our pocket neurilizers and erased our memories....

Carrot Top. Eew!

(not that I've ever seen that show, but come on...)

[Master Toon]

There's a lot of reasons why that doesn't matter.

- Some of us were too young to care.

- Most of us didn't have Cartoon Network back then.

- Who said anyone was happy with those shows?

- That was before Cartoon Network was a brand name.

[Blackstar]

Carrot Top's AM Mayhem wasn't a live action program. It was a showcase for classic cartoons with live action wraparounds courtesy of Carrot Top. It was no more a live action show than the Banana Splits or Fridays were.

[Master Toon]

Carrot Top's AM Mayhem wasn't a live action program. It was a showcase for classic cartoons with live action wraparounds courtesy of Carrot Top. It was no more a live action show than the Banana Splits or Fridays were.

True but now PeppeRaskell1 can say that Out of Jimmy's Head is legit, but that's up to him or her to say.

[Blackstar]

Not really. Out of Jimmy's Head actually has live action story lines and plots. The Carrot Top bits in AM Mayhem were just wraparounds (most of them no more than 2 or 3 minutes long) to segue from one cartoon short to the next.

[Neo Ultra Mike]

That's the only proper way life action SHOULD be on Cartoon Network: If it is there to segway or lead into the animated bits. Not as it's own actual plotline. That's why I could accept the Carrtop bits, enjoy Space Ghost Coast To Coast, and even not be too upset about Cartoon Network Fridays With Tommy and Nzinga/Tara. But full on live action movies/shows with more life action then animation in them? That dosen't belong on a cartoon network at all, no matter how desperate CN is for ratings. I guess that's another topic for several threads, but the point is the Carrot-Top stuff was okay. (Though I didn't see it. Carrot Top was in an episode of Space Ghost Coast To Coast though. "Lovesick" along with a "talking" cow).

[Master Toon]

Very effective comments gentlemen. If those shows were indeed more for animation and not live action, there's no argument.

[livingfruitvirus]

People also seem to forget that CN ran Big Bag, which was mostly a puppet show. There were some animated segments, but the live-to-cartoon ratio was probably similar to that of Pee Wee's Playhouse.

[Eddy]

People also seem to forget that CN ran Big Bag, which was mostly a puppet show. There were some animated segments, but the live-to-cartoon ratio was probably similar to that of Pee Wee's Playhouse.
Here I thought I was the only one who remembered Big Bag.

[Draft]

But Carrot Top was a block

Sure you could argue Danger Island or w/e it's called, but it''s not fully 100% action(I.E., there are segmants that feature only animation more than the live action parts)

[Antiyonder]

I've never seen Carrot Top, Big Bag or Danger Island, but the difference from what I gather is that they were more cartoon in feel and tone, whereas OOJH only had the cartoon characters stuck in to fit the animation quota.

If I'm correct, I imagine if the network was called Turner Kids or KidsWB, then they would have made the show the exact same way, minus the toon characters.

[Light Lucario]

People also seem to forget that CN ran Big Bag, which was mostly a puppet show. There were some animated segments, but the live-to-cartoon ratio was probably similar to that of Pee Wee's Playhouse.

Here I thought I was the only one who remembered Big Bag.

Oh yeah. I remembered that show too. They had it on really early in the morning and I guess it was an attempt to have more of a pre-school auidence. The puppets were kind of cute. I don't think that it lasted too long, though. I barely remember anything about Carrot Top, but I think he was like just the host of a block.

[Dr.Pepper]

Carrot Top was wrappings around cartoons. I always thought that Big Bag was a weird show for CN even when I was like 7.

[jeff_iz_XLent]

Like it or not.LA aint going anywhere for a while on CN.'Stead of sitting around and whining about it,flip the gosh darn channel already.:sweat::sweat::sweat:

"It's Live Action!"

"No,it just has segments of Live Action."

"That makes it Live Action!"

"No it doesn't!I'm reporting you!'"

"For what?"

"For having what this country was founded on,opinions!"

Sheesh. :p

[abwayax]

I was wondering why no one ever mentioned Big Bag during the recent "live action on CN" threads.

Of course, I don't think CN promoted Big Bag anywhere near as much as they're promoting OOJH. Maybe that's why. Some people say that OOJH represents a turning point in the network where the execs are starting to disregard the "Best Place for Cartoons" philosophy. Big Bag just came and went without much noise.

Of course, Big Bag was also back in the past, before we had mainstream Internet forums.

[danreyes1]

It was a live-action host segment, like Fried Dynamite. The thing is, it was on so early in the morning that most people missed it. I know I did. And I didn't care. Plus, it didn't go anywhere near dominating the network.

[Beast_automaton]

I seem to remember another live-action show on cartoon network in the early days that showed old cartoons and was hosted by two puppets and a goat if I remember correctly. It could have possiably been on tbs seeing as back in the day they used to show dexter and what a cartoon show. Does anyone know what I am talking about?

[Darklordavaitor]

Eh, what's to say? It's a block that featured cartons, noone was sastisfyed in the first place, The Banana Splits aired as well...

[Blackstar]

I seem to remember another live-action show on cartoon network in the early days that showed old cartoons and was hosted by two puppets and a goat if I remember correctly. It could have possiably been on tbs seeing as back in the day they used to show dexter and what a cartoon show. Does anyone know what I am talking about?

I do. That was Rudy & Go-Go. I know that aired on TBS, but I never saw it on Cartoon Network (except as an Easter egg in one episode of Space Ghost: Cost to Coast. Moltar is seen switching to Rudy & Go-Go on his monitor during the end credits of the episode titled "Sharrock").

In any case, the puppets were just hosting segments, so it was really more about the cartoons, unless one counts puppets as live-action. Personally, I don't count live action host segments as live action shows, but opinions differ on this. IMHO, it's only if you can go more than 5 minutes with no animation whatsoever should it be counted.

[DrTooth]

What cartoons did Carrot head host? Just out of curiosity.

[Master Toon]

What cartoons did Carrot head host? Just out of curiosity.

Don't you mean Carrot Top?

[Blackstar]

What cartoons did Carrot head host? Just out of curiosity.

The cartoons that were shown on Carrot Top's AM Mayhem were basically what was airing on Cartoon Network at the time; Tom & Jerry, Looney Tunes, MGM shorts, 2 Stupid Dogs, old school H-B shorts, basically anything that wasn't action, because that's what Toonami was for.

[Ace Goodheart]

"Carrot Top's A.M Mayhem" wasn't around for very long (1995-1996) and was barely promoted to boot. I only remember it for the brief promos CN ran for it when it debuted in late 1995 (or so) but never actually watched the show/block. Apparently the show was mired with production problems behind the scenes that probably hastened it's demise (the show was most likely crap as well considering CN's tight budget and personnel back then) as briefly mentioned by "Sealab 2021" co-creator Matt Thompson, who along with many notable Williams Street personnel are CN life-I mean veterans:

http://www.ugo.com/channels/dvd/features/sealab2021_season2/mattthompson.asp

But yeah, despite the live-action segments with Carrot Top ala Pee-Wee's Playhouse, the show was your typical wrap-around show with a host/hosts, just like "The Moxy & Flea Show" and "Cartoon Planet" from that same period were, except with a live-action host in Carrot Top. On some Google results for "A.M Mayhem", I've been reading excerpts on how it was at the time Cartoon Network's highest-rated program. I seriously doubt that. "Morning Crew" preceded "A.M Mayhem and "Cartoon A-Doodle Doo" succeeded it. Both were nondescript, hostless morning blocks.

"Afternoon Adventures" and later "Power Zone" were the afternoon blocks in power during "A.M Mayhem"'s run, and the home to CN's action lineup.

[MegaJ]

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117973399.html?categoryId=2721&cs=1

- Article. The only thing relating to CN is at the bottom:

What's next: A live-action pilot for Cartoon Network. "Stylistically, it's going to have much more of an Asian cinematic influence, as opposed to a more traditional kid-television influence[," Lynch said.]

[Rolling Cloud]

Great, people are gonna complain again. :shrug:

[Wanted]

Now, why couldn't this be a cartoon?

[MegaJ]

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117973396.html?categoryid=2721&cs=1

This article is actually part of a feature Variety did Thursday called "Youth Report '07." Click the headline "Youth Report '07" and you'll see a lot of interesting short articles. This one's from Michael Ouweleen, VP at CN:

"[Out of Jimmy's Head] was a natural way of dipping our toe into the live-action pool," says Ouweleen. "And then doing the live-action version of a cartoon, 'Ben 10,' seems normal to us." That project, "Ben 10: Race Against Time," debuts in November

What's next: More live shows in development.

[Wanted]

Might as well change the name right now... "Cartoon Network" can only exist in retail.

[John Dorian]

Just when you thought things wouldn't get any worse for Cartoon Network.







Well, I wouldn't mind if CN shut down soon, now. CN's been in TV Hell for 2 years now. They're at Level 2 in Hell, now. Satan is about to take them down to Level 10 because of this. Rename it to Nickelodeon/Disney Ripoff Network. Or Nick! Stravaganza, complete with Nick and Disney as the main segments, and CN as a third segment with the same crap.



They have no hope saving themselves. They have to get the grace of God to save those bastards. One day, animation as a whole will be extinct on Network, and sadly, once again we have to watch Nick and Disney with the same crappy shows. Go to Level 10 in Hell, Cartoon Network.

[John Dorian]

I just stopped subscribing to Network and every other channel (except Boomerang).

[Sketch]

Well there ya go another live-action pilot. At least it doesn't sound as generic as other one from Mr. Ex-X-Files.

[Darklordavaitor]

*Remember good old days. Remember good old days. Remember good old..* Nah, it won't work. CN is screwed.

[jeff_iz_XLent]

-____- Well,the guy made The Secret World Of Alex Mac (not a bad show).If he can do somethin' like that again,I guess it'll be 'aight.But still,MORE LA...Dang.That's a bummer.

[Antiyonder]

Either the heads of The Network need to apply themselves on better cartoons, or prepare a resignation and find jobs more appropriate for their mindset (MTV or selling office supplies).

[Darklordavaitor]

I have a feeling we just disowned our little Cartoon Network.

[Rocketboy]

I'm still a believer of things get worse before they get better, but man, this is bad.

[Marinite]

Wonder what kind of shows they'll make. Looking forward to hearing more about them.

[Marinite]

Now, why couldn't this be a cartoon? Because the creator didn't want it to be.

[NintyScreen]

:shrug:

4Kids taking over Kids WB's lineup for the 2008-2009 season?
Cartoon Network airing more Live-Action?

Why animation fans aren't at their headquarters grabbing picket signs is beyond me at this point.

[Sketch]

Wonder what kind of shows they'll make. Looking forward to hearing more about them.

You would.

Well... I suppose they can't be worse than what the competition plays but it's not going to help them tackle HSM or Hannah Montana in the ratings game.

[Kitschensyngk]

Recent breakthrough: Cartoon Network's new live-action programming. "The kids we've cast feel like they could come work at the network in 10 years. They have the same creative take and work ethic."In ten years, there will be no Cartoon Network. There will just be Children's Programming-Frequency 204R36W7-B.

[Movie06]

Asian influenced? Awesome! Now I have two live action shows on CN I'll be looking forward to this and Kamen Rider.

[Movie06]

It depends which shows CN will be doing, if it's something like Out of Jimmy's Head no thanks but it's something like Kamen Rider or the Asian cinema influenced show they're doing then I'll be interested, it just depends which shows CN will be going for.

Also this may be off topic but I do wish that Mick Garris would've sold his show Masters of Horror to Adult Swim instead of NBC.

[HG Revolution]

As soon as this month is over, I'm going to refuse to watch anything outside of Toonami, Adult Swim, and that Transformers/Kamen Rider hour.

There was stuff to watch outside that hour?

I may make an exception to my general not-watching-CN rule for Chowder, but that'll be it. Fosters is on DVD, and Billy And Mandy and the Eds have ended. Now that CN seems to need live-action to "contrast" cartoons (honestly, does Comedy Central need to "contrast" its regular programming with Schindler's List?), they've really lost touch with all the goodness they still had.

[veemonjosh]

There was stuff to watch outside that hour?

Yes, Toonami and Adult Swim. Just like I said. :sweat:

[Wanted]

Because the creator didn't want it to be.How snide.

[Toonfan2000]

Non-animated Asian cinema?! On Cartoon Network?!

Jeez, Cartoon Network, get your act together. It seems like the kids' TV biz is severely screwed up nowadays:

-Disney is, well, Disney
-Nickelodeon wants to be Disney
-CN wants to be Nick.

It's like CN is drunk at a party. A long party.

[Movie06]

Asian cinema?! On Cartoon Network?!

And what exactly is wrong with Asian cinema?

[Toonfan2000]

And what exactly is wrong with Asian cinema?

Nothing, it's just that it seems out of place on CN. Unless it's anime.

My post wasn't clear enough, so I edited it.

[Deadman]

this sucks there should be no live action on cn.

[Toonfan2000]

The only things on that junkpit worth watching now (to me) are Foster's, Gym Partner and Courage.

[Mr. Ralph]

Just when you thought things wouldn't get any worse for Cartoon Network.







Well, I wouldn't mind if CN shut down soon, now. CN's been in TV Hell for 2 years now. They're at Level 2 in Hell, now. Satan is about to take them down to Level 10 because of this. Rename it to Nickelodeon/Disney Ripoff Network. Or Nick! Stravaganza, complete with Nick and Disney as the main segments, and CN as a third segment with the same crap.



They have no hope saving themselves. They have to get the grace of God to save those bastards. One day, animation as a whole will be extinct on Network, and sadly, once again we have to watch Nick and Disney with the same crappy shows. Go to Level 10 in Hell, Cartoon Network.

geez, reading that you'd think cartoon network raped and murdered your father or something. :shrug:

calm down. cartoon network will always have cartoons. if you don't like the live action then don't watch it. i don't.

[TheVofSteel]

-____- Well,the guy made The Secret World Of Alex Mac (not a bad show).I

He also co-created "Class of 3000".

[CartoonSage]

"[Out of Jimmy's Head] was a natural way of dipping our toe into the live-action pool," says Ouweleen. "And then doing the live-action version of a cartoon, 'Ben 10,' seems normal to us." That project, "Ben 10: Race Against Time," debuts in November

Hmm, while your in that live-action pool, why don't you just dip your head in and keep it there til the bubbles stop.:mad:

:shrug:

4Kids taking over Kids WB's lineup for the 2008-2009 season?
Cartoon Network airing more Live-Action?

Why animation fans aren't at their headquarters grabbing picket signs is beyond me at this point.

Cause the want to keep their jobs, I assume.

[Montmorency]

"Role model: "Ted Turner. Just how he approached building businesses. His spirit is still lingering around this place.""


If Turner was really his role model, then there wouldn't be any live action.....:shrug:

[Draft]

Well there ya go another live-action pilot. At least it doesn't sound as generic as other one from Mr. Ex-X-Files.
That's the only gewd thign bout it, and didn't mr.lynch help make Class of 3000 among other thigns as well?

Bah, it''s only gonna propel Kids WB Network coming sooner

[Silverstar]

All I'm going to say is: goodbye, Cartoon Network, hello Kids' WB Channel!

[John Dorian]

Why would they call it Kids WB! when it's just 1 or 2 WB shows on there?

[Silverstar]

Well, it's sure not a cartoon network anymore, that's for sure.

[Montmorency]

CN fell in a hole and thinks digging deeper will get them out....:sad:

[gundam555]

My letter has been written, stamped and sent. If you're with me, now's the time to strike.

I sent my letter on October 1st.

[Dr.Pepper]

Why do you keep doing this to me.:confused: :mad:

[HG Revolution]

Yes, Toonami and Adult Swim. Just like I said. :sweat:

Oops, I meant to say THOSE hours.

[HG Revolution]

Because the creator didn't want it to be.

Well, if the creator wanted a live-action show, wouldn't it be smarter to go to Nick or Disney? It'd be guarenteed better ratings there.

[Dr.Pepper]

I honsetly wonder what has to be going through the minds of the people at CN.

[Master Toon]

I honsetly wonder what has to be going through the minds of the people at CN.

CN employee 1: Duh.. I knows what we could play!

CN employee 2: Duh, what?

CN employee 1: Let's put on sum more live action, kiddies loves the live action.

CN employee 2: But ain't we, duh, Cartoon Network?

CN employee 1: Hehe hawhaw, we're a kids network first and a animation network second, hehehe.

CN employee 2: Hey I gots another idear, let's scrap any thing remotely similar to animation and get some kids to run around during commercial breaks.

CN employee 1: If Ted Turner still worked here he would have loved us and we'd have a promotion by now, hehehe.

[Jyose]

Hmm, while your in that live-action pool, why don't you just dip your head in and keep it there til the bubbles stop.:mad:

My sentiments exactly. But we also need to defile the corpse and hire someone who's actually competent.

But, it's either this or lose the network completely, didn't someone post a while ago that Cartoon Network's ratings were really in the crapper?

They could easily pull them out by making and promoting half way decent cartoons; that means, no more crap like Lazlo and Squirrel boy. Bringing back old classics wouldn't cut it, they need new good cartoons. If Billy and Mandy was promoted half as much as Spongebob, it would get better ratings. Hell the "Where's Gary" special got BILLBOARDS in LA

They'll never do that though, it's too much to ask.

I'm willing to stay aboard the sinking ship for Toonami, Adult Swim and maybe some of the new cartoons(particularly Chowder and Fosters)

How I wish I got boomerang, is it as good as you guys describe?

[danreyes1]

Another one? Crap. Really, I'm expecting them to just up an change the name any day now.

[Eddy]

Go to hell, Cartoon Network.

I'm sick of this crap.

Also, casting children to play the role of children is never a good idea. Kids get older, they hit puberty, their voices change.

[danreyes1]

Cartoon Network just hit the bottom of the barrel, crashed through, and is six feet under the ground now. Seriously, I think this is the worst they've ever been. Too many crappy cartoons, and a full embracing of live-action on a network where it just doesn't belong.

Cartoon Network was once my favourite network. I still have a loyalty to it that doesn't exist for the Nickelodeon and Disney networks. But at this point I really am watching Toon Disney a whole lot more than CN, (and I hate Jetix). I want to like CN again. I want it to be my first choice again. But as it is it looks like my favourite channel is going to degrade into another generic network.

[danreyes1]

I sent my letter on October 1st.

Might become a monthly thing for me... More live-action has been announced.

[Sketch]

Well, if the creator wanted a live-action show, wouldn't it be smarter to go to Nick or Disney? It'd be guarenteed better ratings there.

They probably turned him down.

[Antiyonder]

They could easily pull them out by making and promoting half way decent cartoons; that means, no more crap like Lazlo and Squirrel boy. Bringing back old classics wouldn't cut it, they need new good cartoons.

Bring in some more classic could work in addition to bringing in new stuff. Either way it means cutting down on the 5X5 airings they do now.

Heck, since The Secret Adventures Of Zak Saturday is suppose to be a take on Johnny Quest, maybe some airings of both JQ series would be good for the morning slots.

[Sketch]

I'd love to see The Real Adventures of Johnny Quest again. It's been far too long.

[Taylor Karras]

They probably turned him down.
Yes, Who'd want a show that's stylisticly Asian when they can get a show that Stylisticly Kiddy?

[Joe]

Well, at least it seems original. Though all we really know about it is its supposed "Asian cinema influence."

Though really it's just further proof that Cartoon Network is no more.

[HG Revolution]

Yes, Who'd want a show that's stylisticly Asian when they can get a show that Stylisticly Kiddy?

Why not get something that's both like Avatar?

[HG Revolution]

But, it's either this or lose the network completely, didn't someone post a while ago that Cartoon Network's ratings were really in the crapper?

Live-action hasn't been helping.

[Draft]

Why would they call it Kids WB! when it's just 1 or 2 WB shows on there?
Because Kids WB is a well known brand and i doubt they'll want to keep CN as the bname when they could easily change it to a more marketable brand. Hell, they could advertise it this year on Kids WB..

[DarthGonzo]

It depends which shows CN will be doing, if it's something like Out of Jimmy's Head no thanks but it's something like Kamen Rider or the Asian cinema influenced show they're doing then I'll be interested, it just depends which shows CN will be going for.


No.

Live action is live action. Doesn't matter if the genre appeals to you or not. It still has no place on Cartoon Network.

That's like me saying, "I hate Out of Jimmy's Head, but I like cooking shows. So if CN wants to do a live action cooking show that'd be ok with me."

[Toonfan2000]

This might sound foolish, but I still have hope for the network. Until Time Warner allows the Turner networks access to WB's library of movies, TV shows and animation free of charge, CN will continue to show live-action movies produced by companies outside the TW corporate structure.

And it wasn't until the merger with AOL that the Turner networks started being treated like total crap.

[Wanted]

I'd love to see The Real Adventures of Johnny Quest again. It's been far too long.I've been watching it on In2TV... once you get past the issues with the animation, it's a REALLY good show. Too bad it couldn't come to fruition the way it was supposed to.

CN employee 1: Duh.. I knows what we could play!

CN employee 2: Duh, what?

CN employee 1: Let's put on sum more live action, kiddies loves the live action.

CN employee 2: But ain't we, duh, Cartoon Network?...Does that help you get a point across? You could be much more succinct (or less trite).

[Master Toon]

This is just stupid. The Cartoon Network I knew and loved was much better. I watch way more Toon Disney and Nicktoons Network than I do Cartoon Network these days and I was Cartoon Network's biggest fan. It's like they're making the most foolish mistakes, mistakes that a child wouldn't, no, couldn't make. I mean, are they overstressed? They seem to only get their knowledge from ratings... wow. How about surveying kids and letting them see sneak peaks of shows before you show them, to see if they like them Cartoon Network? And why did that guy sound like live action was some wonderful new idea that will make kids more interested in the network? If you just want a bunch of kids to watch your network, change your name, and before you make another abomination such as Out of Jimmy's Head, show better live action. Just don't bring that crap into my Cartoon Network.

[Master Toon]

geez, reading that you'd think cartoon network raped and murdered your father or something. :shrug:

They did.. his name.. was Tom. I miss you Dad, that ugly gross host of Toonami is not you! :crying:

calm down. cartoon network will always have cartoons. if you don't like the live action then don't watch it. i don't.

Tell that to me when I was 13 and see how I react.

Because Kids WB is a well known brand and i doubt they'll want to keep CN as the bname when they could easily change it to a more marketable brand. Hell, they could advertise it this year on Kids WB..

Even if KidsWB! takes over the live action will still be horrible. Then they'll be ruining KidsWB!'s good name.

[Railith]

Great, people are gonna complain again. :shrug:

Only if it sucks.

[William C. Maune]

geez, reading that you'd think cartoon network raped and murdered your father or something. :shrug:

calm down. cartoon network will always have cartoons. if you don't like the live action then don't watch it. i don't.

Thank you. I can definitely understand why people don't like live-action on Cartoon Network. However, the overreaction doesn't get anybody anywhere. I hope people realize that if Cartoon Network does shut down (not that I think it would actually happen), the widely available channels remaining that show a lot of animation will be Nick and Disney, both of which currently show significanly less animation than Cartoon Network does.

They picked up a pilot, which may or may not ever make it on air. To hope Cartoon Network gets shut down because of what might happen is a little silly. I may not be happy with some of the decisions being made, but I know I don't want to lose everything on Cartoon Network just because I don't like some things.

[Master Moron]

I don't know why people are so pissed off about this. If kids really don't want live action on Cartoon Network, they won't watch, and it will be cancelled, and Cartoon Network will learn their lesson. But, if kids do want live action then they'll watch. Remember, kids are who Cartoon Network cares about. I'm really not sure why everyone cares what happens to a kids' network so much.

[Master Moron]

Oh god.

You know what, I'm done with this. Absolutely done.

As soon as this month is over, I'm going to refuse to watch anything outside of Toonami, Adult Swim, and that Transformers/Kamen Rider hour.

Ummm...you mean you were actually watching stuff outside of Toonami and Adult Swim previously?

[Master Toon]

Thank you. I can definitely understand why people don't like live-action on Cartoon Network. However, the overreaction doesn't get anybody anywhere. I hope people realize that if Cartoon Network does shut down (not that I think it would actually happen), the widely available channels remaining that show a lot of animation will be Nick and Disney, both of which currently show significanly less animation than Cartoon Network does.

They picked up a pilot, which may or may not ever make it on air. To hope Cartoon Network gets shut down because of what might happen is a little silly. I may not be happy with some of the decisions being made, but I know I don't want to lose everything on Cartoon Network just because I don't like some things.

Mr. Maune, they have already told us that they're getting more live action, I doubt they'll drop the first ones they get just to keep searching. They want live action at all cost and that's what they'll get.

I don't know why people are so pissed off about this. If kids really don't want live action on Cartoon Network, they won't watch, and it will be cancelled, and Cartoon Network will learn their lesson. But, if kids do want live action then they'll watch. Remember, kids are who Cartoon Network cares about. I'm really not sure why everyone cares what happens to a kids' network so much.

Why does everyone care what happens to a kids' network? I know why I care, because Cartoon Network was my life, my freaking life man! I'll never let that part of me die and I'll never stay silent while they destroy what's left of the network! :mad:

[Master Toon]

Might become a monthly thing for me... More live-action has been announced.

Some of us at Retro Junk said we're going to send our letters at the same time.

[William C. Maune]

Mr. Maune, they have already told us that they're getting more live action, I doubt they'll drop the first ones they get just to keep searching. They want live action at all cost and that's what they'll get.

Yes, they've said they are exploring live-action. And, as we've seen with Goosebumps, they are putting series on the air. However, they are still picking up animated pilots and producing animation as well. If we are going by what they told us, they still don't want live-action to make up more than 10% of the network at most.

Anyway, my point was that we don't gain anything from Cartoon Network shutting down. Despite whatever problems they still show more animation than anyone else.

[Master Toon]

Despite whatever problems they still show more animation than anyone else.

Does everyone here just ignore Toon Disney and Nicktoons Network? They show more animation than Cartoon Network does. Unless you meant Cartoon Network shows more animation than non-digital channels.

[Antiyonder]

I commend the network for wanting to put some variety on the network, but if they want to do that, then cutback on the kid/school based shows already. Give them something along the lines of Looney Tunes/Spongebob Squarepants. Plus there are ways of doing so as I list in this response:

This might sound foolish, but I still have hope for the network. Until Time Warner allows the Turner networks access to WB's library of movies, TV shows and animation free of charge, CN will continue to show live-action movies produced by companies outside the TW corporate structure.

And it wasn't until the merger with AOL that the Turner networks started being treated like total crap.

Now, they still have some old Hanna Barbara properties don't they? If they were to bring back some classics, plus return Toonami to weekdays and of course better effort in new shows, they would have a fair chance.

[Antiyonder]

I don't know why people are so pissed off about this. If kids really don't want live action on Cartoon Network, they won't watch, and it will be cancelled, and Cartoon Network will learn their lesson. But, if kids do want live action then they'll watch. Remember, kids are who Cartoon Network cares about. I'm really not sure why everyone cares what happens to a kids' network so much.

Because unlike Nickelodeon, Cartoon Network and to a degree Disney Channel (for another thread) started out for All Ages or the entire family. While Nickelodeon is far from perfect, they at least have remained what they are from day: A Kids Network.

The problem with CN is that the management is made up of a lot of disgruntled hacks who would do better on MTV, Spike or just getting a job selling Office Supplies. It's pretty simple, you work so you get a job that matches your interests. If you get a job you don't like, you do your best regardless and put petty dislikes in the garbage.

[William C. Maune]

Unless you meant Cartoon Network shows more animation than non-digital channels.

Yep, that's what I was referring to. I was more specific in my earlier post where I referred to "widely available" networks.

[HG Revolution]

I'm really not sure why everyone cares what happens to a kids' network so much.

Because it wasn't always a kids network. Between the classic cartoons, Space Ghost, the What a Cartoon show, shows like Justice League and Samurai Jack, old Toonami (which counted 12-24 ratings alongside 6-11), and various specials and stuff, it really was a network for the whole family. I think Adult Swim might have been a bad idea in hindsight because it created a divide in the network and shows which didn't work by Adult Swim's standards but weren't exactly kids' shows got shelved for the most part.

[William C. Maune]

I don't remember Toonami ever focusing on the 12-24 ratings. And I can't remember ever really seeing adult targeted ads on Cartoon Network (other than the "Turner Shopping"-type ads which they use to fill time and that have been called various things over the years).

[Marinite]

Because it wasn't always a kids network. Between the classic cartoons, Space Ghost, the What a Cartoon show, shows like Justice League and Samurai Jack, old Toonami (which counted 12-24 ratings alongside 6-11), and various specials and stuff, it really was a network for the whole family. I think Adult Swim might have been a bad idea in hindsight because it created a divide in the network and shows which didn't work by Adult Swim's standards but weren't exactly kids' shows got shelved for the most part. Do you have a source for those claims?

[HG Revolution]

Do you have a source for those claims?

For Toonami: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/feature/2001-06-27

The classics (especially when packaged uncut with historical backdrops in Toonheads and The Bob Clampett/Chuck Jones/Tex Avery Show) and Space Ghost explain themselves. So do the late-night anime features (Robot Carnival, Vampire Hunter D, etc.) and the pilots for Adult Swim shows.

What a Cartoon! had some pretty edgy stuff, including the pilot which would eventually become Family Guy. That alone should be proof it wasn't made exclusively for kids.

Genndy Tartakovsky goes on and on on the Samurai Jack Season 1 DVD about how he wants his shows to be enjoyed by adults just as much as kids and I'm pretty sure Craig McCracken and Bruce Timm have made similar statements.

[William C. Maune]

For Toonami: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/feature/2001-06-27

That says the people watching are generally 6-24, not that they focus on attracting 6-24 year olds. Considering these days we have things like properly dubbed Naruto and One Piece, TV-PG and less editing than ever before, I wouldn't be surprised if the Toonami audience was still generally 6-24.

What a Cartoon! had some pretty edgy stuff, including the pilot which would eventually become Family Guy. That alone should be proof it wasn't made exclusively for kids..

I've seen that short and there isn't anything in it that is any edgier than the rest of Cartoon Network. That short was basically Family Guy without the edge.

[Antiyonder]

That says the people watching are generally 6-24, not that they focus on attracting 6-24 year olds. Considering these days we have things like properly dubbed Naruto and One Piece, TV-PG and less editing than ever before, I wouldn't be surprised if the Toonami audience was still generally 6-24.



I've seen that short and there isn't anything in it that is any edgier than the rest of Cartoon Network. That short was basically Family Guy without the edge.

It's kind of like how Flintstones was targeted towards adults back then. Not like The Graduate or Aqua Teen Hunger Force adult, but more in the Honeymooner/Growing Pains/All In The Family type adult.

Same principle applies to Cartoon Network.

[Jave]

For Toonami: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/feature/2001-06-27

The classics (especially when packaged uncut with historical backdrops in Toonheads and The Bob Clampett/Chuck Jones/Tex Avery Show) and Space Ghost explain themselves. So do the late-night anime features (Robot Carnival, Vampire Hunter D, etc.) and the pilots for Adult Swim shows.

What a Cartoon! had some pretty edgy stuff, including the pilot which would eventually become Family Guy. That alone should be proof it wasn't made exclusively for kids.

Genndy Tartakovsky goes on and on on the Samurai Jack Season 1 DVD about how he wants his shows to be enjoyed by adults just as much as kids and I'm pretty sure Craig McCracken and Bruce Timm have made similar statements.I can actually confirm that the classic cartoon compilation shows (Toonheads, Late Night B&W, The Popeye Show, Bob Clampett Show) were made with a more adult audience in mind. Back when the old TTTP was still here at Toon Zone, someone who had contacts with someone who worked on Toonheads posted that "These shows are aimed at a very specific audience. They're not just for kids". I THINK the contact was Jerry Beck, but I'll have to search to be sure.

[macattack]

CN is getting really close to slitting their wrists here . . .

Unless, again, they're planning on a name change so they wouldn't be contradicting themselves. Then again, "MTV" has gotten away with contradicting their mission for years . . .

[veemonjosh]

Ummm...you mean you were actually watching stuff outside of Toonami and Adult Swim previously?

You know what, that post has caused more trouble than I intended it to.

*deletes*