C&C - Anything Else/Cards [11/26-12/2] [Archive]

livingfruitvirus

11-27-2006, 02:24 AM

For Saturdays, getting almost 350K (I'm going to assume the ratings are 330K or higher) is pretty good. Logically, it should never get into the Top 3 since it's not one of the first 3 shows (then again, logic on Saturdays?), but I really, really doubt Viz will care that much as long as the manga continues to sell, the DVDs end up selling, and the merchandise makes some money.

It's also not like Viz has these amazingly high standards. They're an anime holdings company. To them, a television airing = a benefit (and broadcast rights paycheck) that otherwise would not exist. They sold Hikaru no Go to ImaginAsian Television after all, and do bring it up in their little Power Point presentations at conventions.

KuwabaraTheMan

11-27-2006, 02:35 AM

That's fine for lesser series, but Bleach is a very popular Shounen series. They had to be looking for it to at least come close to Naruto ratings.

Duke

11-27-2006, 02:39 AM

That's fine for lesser series, but Bleach is a very popular Shounen series. They had to be looking for it to at least come close to Naruto ratings.
For all we know, Bleach IS getting Naruto's ratings...in the 9-14 department.

KuwabaraTheMan

11-27-2006, 02:40 AM

For all we know, Bleach IS getting Naruto's ratings...in the 9-14 department.

Which disproves my point that it should be on Toonami how?

Duke

11-27-2006, 02:48 AM

Which disproves my point that it should be on Toonami how?
Because Cartoon Network felt it would be better on Adult Swim. That's the major reason. If CN wanted the show for Toonami, they'd take it away from AS and put it on Toonami/general CN/whatever. Viz might force a change if they actually really wanted to, but I can't see them being unhappy right now.

livingfruitvirus

11-27-2006, 02:53 AM

That's fine for lesser series, but Bleach is a very popular Shounen series. They had to be looking for it to at least come close to Naruto ratings.

I wouldn't expect that. It feels much slower paced and, I guess softer in its delivery. Naruto has the ninja gimmick going for it, which is a good grab. And not only is it about ninjas, but it's combined with the concept that every executive managing kids' properties thinks will be a sure-fire win in grabbing the kid audiences: it's about kids in a ninja SCHOOL! If Bleach got Zatch Bell ratings, I'd be a bit surprised.

Ratings aside, the success of an anime will ultimately depend on who's managing the show. A show can get great ratings on TV and sell like crap in retail because the licensor doesn't get the show. In 2004, the most financially successful anime franchise in the United States was Stand Alone Complex, even though its ratings were often in the 400,000s for 18-34. Or, it doesn't need to be on TV. Look at Fruits Basket.

Duke

11-27-2006, 03:02 AM

Or, it doesn't need to be on TV. Look at Fruits Basket.
Actually, you could say that for almost all of FUNimation's properties. Kiddy Grade is getting a second season thanks to FUNi, FUNi's ad campaign has resulted in great sales for Desert Punk, Speed Grapher, Trinity Blood, and Basilisk, and one could only guess how heavily they're going to push Tsubasa Chronicle and XXXHOLiC.

Karl Olson

11-27-2006, 03:18 AM

Actually, you could say that for almost all of FUNimation's properties. Kiddy Grade is getting a second season thanks to FUNi, FUNi's ad campaign has resulted in great sales for Desert Punk, Speed Grapher, Trinity Blood, and Basilisk, and one could only guess how heavily they're going to push Tsubasa Chronicle and XXXHOLiC.

Yeah, Funimation just gets marketing compared to their compatriots - they can take shows that were bombs otherwise and turn them into successes, so when something has natural momentum like Fruits Basket, of course it's going to do well for them. A better example would be the Geneon or ADV titles that manage to sell in spite of some what mediocre handling at points. Those are the titles that don't need TV or anything else to push them - they have a built in hook for the fandom.

Sketch

11-27-2006, 03:41 AM

Because Cartoon Network felt it would be better on Adult Swim. That's the major reason. If CN wanted the show for Toonami, they'd take it away from AS and put it on Toonami/general CN/whatever. Viz might force a change if they actually really wanted to, but I can't see them being unhappy right now.

You say that with confidence. Is that merely a hunch though? I would assume as much.

Duke

11-27-2006, 03:48 AM

You say that with confidence. Is that merely a hunch though? I would assume as much.
I say it with the hope that people would drop the freaking arguement already as its not worth debating for the 1,000,000th time!

At this point, I don't give a damn. Bleach could air at 5AM for all I care. Hell, it could air on PBS right after Sesame Street. Hell, Viz could butcher the series and turn it into a 39-episode show about Ichigo preaching Judiasm and I wouldn't give a damn at this point. If that meant I wouldn't have to read yet another damn "Bleach should be on Toonami!" debate, I would gladly welcome that with open arms.

The Myst

11-27-2006, 03:52 AM

Hell, Viz could butcher the series and turn it into a 39-episode show about Ichigo preaching Judiasm and I wouldn't give a damn at this point.

Sounds better than the real Bleach.

Sketch

11-27-2006, 04:30 AM

I say it with the hope that people would drop the freaking arguement already as its not worth debating for the 1,000,000th time!

At this point, I don't give a damn. Bleach could air at 5AM for all I care. Hell, it could air on PBS right after Sesame Street. Hell, Viz could butcher the series and turn it into a 39-episode show about Ichigo preaching Judiasm and I wouldn't give a damn at this point. If that meant I wouldn't have to read yet another damn "Bleach should be on Toonami!" debate, I would gladly welcome that with open arms.

None the less, as long as it doesn't get the ratings on Adult Swim that it COULD get on Toonami, someone is going to say it.

Duke

11-27-2006, 12:57 PM

None the less, as long as it doesn't get the ratings on Adult Swim that it COULD get on Toonami, someone is going to say it.
Oh yes, because we all know that NOBODY under 18 watches Bleach, just like NOBODY over 14 watches Naruto. So that makes their ratings comparable easily. We don't have Adult Swim's numbers for Saturdays for the 9-14 and 6-11 demographic (vegetable's are mostly for weekday airings) so comparing the ratings for it to Naruto is just stupid. Just like comparing the 18-34 ratings to Naruto to the 18-34 ratings for Bleach. (I'm willing to bet there are less 18-34 viewers of Naruto than there are 9-14/6-11)

Grenzer

11-27-2006, 01:19 PM

None the less, as long as it doesn't get the ratings on Adult Swim that it COULD get on Toonami, someone is going to say it.

Right, you are basing your assumptions on what evidence again? There is only one show that ever made the transition from AS to Toonami, and that was Yu Yu Hakusho.

Remember when YYH moved from airing at midnight to 9pm? How it dominated Toonami ratings for its entire run there? How YYH became a sensation with American children that dwarfed DBZ, YGO!, and Pokemon?

Oh wait a moment... you can't! YYH was a ratings flop on Toonami. Funimation's gamble that the kids would like it more then the adults turned out to be dead wrong. YYH ended up becoming the ultimate example of fodder for the 5am "Graveyard" slot on Saturday mornings.

So please Sketch (and I means this with all due respect), tell me why you think Bleach, a show about a teenage boy forced to fight powerful monsters and spirits from another dimension, will do better on Toonami then YYH, a show about a teenage boy who is forced to fight powerful monsters and spirits from another dimension?

That's right! Lets give the kids exactly what they don't want to watch! That will draw them in to Toonami like moths to the flame!

Rolling Cloud

11-27-2006, 03:12 PM

Hell, Viz could butcher the series and turn it into a 39-episode show about Ichigo preaching Judiasm and I wouldn't give a damn at this point.

I'm jewish so Ichigo preaching judaism may be soemwhat entertaining to watch!! :sweat:

Master Moron

11-27-2006, 07:40 PM

So please Sketch (and I means this with all due respect), tell me why you think Bleach, a show about a teenage boy forced to fight powerful monsters and spirits from another dimension, will do better on Toonami then YYH, a show about a teenage boy who is forced to fight powerful monsters and spirits from another dimension?

Well, to be fair, Yu Yu Hakusho had older animation, not to mention an ugly pastel color scheme. And I'd ***** about how lame it was that all the main villains in Yu Yu Hakusho came up with a bs story after they were defeated about having a traumatic childhood, but I haven't seen enough of Bleach to say that it's any different. Though, I certainly hope the Grand Fisher doesn't pull a story out of his ass about how he was abused as a child or something.

Hell, Viz could butcher the series and turn it into a 39-episode show about Ichigo preaching Judiasm and I wouldn't give a damn at this point.

It would make more sense if they made it a show about doing laundry or something. Then the title "Bleach" would make sense. I currently don't understand the title. At first I thought Ichigo was supposed to have bleached hair, but he constantly talks about people making fun of his hair color, so I think we're supposed to assume that that's his natural color. I mean, unless he's a masochist and likes people picking on him.

J'onn J'onzz

11-27-2006, 10:03 PM

Right, you are basing your assumptions on what evidence again? There is only one show that ever made the transition from AS to Toonami, and that was Yu Yu Hakusho.

Remember when YYH moved from airing at midnight to 9pm? How it dominated Toonami ratings for its entire run there? How YYH became a sensation with American children that dwarfed DBZ, YGO!, and Pokemon?

Oh wait a moment... you can't! YYH was a ratings flop on Toonami. Funimation's gamble that the kids would like it more then the adults turned out to be dead wrong. YYH ended up becoming the ultimate example of fodder for the 5am "Graveyard" slot on Saturday mornings.

So please Sketch (and I means this with all due respect), tell me why you think Bleach, a show about a teenage boy forced to fight powerful monsters and spirits from another dimension, will do better on Toonami then YYH, a show about a teenage boy who is forced to fight powerful monsters and spirits from another dimension?

That's right! Lets give the kids exactly what they don't want to watch! That will draw them in to Toonami like moths to the flame!

Yu Yu Hakusho actually did okay on Toonami for a while there. The move to Saturday killed it though.

KuwabaraTheMan

11-27-2006, 10:07 PM

The fact that Bleach is just like Dragon Ball is why it will succeed.

Tons of long fights, filled with huge power ups from people on both sides, and crazy off the wall attacks.

Its a shoe in to be a huge success with the Dragon Ball crowd.

Beat

11-27-2006, 10:42 PM

And everyone said the same thing about Yu Yu Hakusho. And it failed.

Master Moron

11-28-2006, 01:36 AM

And everyone said the same thing about Yu Yu Hakusho. And it failed.

Well, not exactly. People said Yu Yu Hakusho was like Dragonball Z only with better character development. In reality the character development in Yu Yu Hakusho was a lot worse than the character development in Dragonball Z. No one's said anything yet about the character development in Bleach. They've just said the fights are similar.

KuwabaraTheMan

11-28-2006, 01:43 AM

Well, not exactly. People said Yu Yu Hakusho was like Dragonball Z only with better character development. In reality the character development in Yu Yu Hakusho was a lot worse than the character development in Dragonball Z. No one's said anything yet about the character development in Bleach. They've just said the fights are similar.

I'd object to that. DBZ's only true development came from Vegeta and Piccolo. Dragon Ball had Tenshinhan, as well, if you want to count them together.

Pretty much everyone else stays the same from when they start out(aside from Gohan becoming a nerd, and Chichi becoming unbearable after marrying Goku).

Compared to the development Kuwabara, Yusuke, Hiei, Kurama, Keiko, and even Koenma go through, not to mention the development for Toguro and Sensui, I don't think it can really be said DB/Z had better character development than Yu Yu Hakusho.

J'onn J'onzz

11-28-2006, 08:47 AM

I'd object to that. DBZ's only true development came from Vegeta and Piccolo. Dragon Ball had Tenshinhan, as well, if you want to count them together.

Pretty much everyone else stays the same from when they start out(aside from Gohan becoming a nerd, and Chichi becoming unbearable after marrying Goku).

Compared to the development Kuwabara, Yusuke, Hiei, Kurama, Keiko, and even Koenma go through, not to mention the development for Toguro and Sensui, I don't think it can really be said DB/Z had better character development than Yu Yu Hakusho.

Lumping Dragonball and Dragonball Z together, compare Goku in episode one of Dragonball to episode 250 or so of DBZ. Quite a change, eh?

shoujoaifan

11-28-2006, 11:28 AM

Lumping Dragonball and Dragonball Z together, compare Goku in episode one of Dragonball to episode 250 or so of DBZ. Quite a change, eh?In a way its kind of character development, although not in the normal way. He does go from a boy to a man with a family, but his core character is the same. Aside from doing father-son stuff with Gohan, the only things that have really changed in him is:

1) That his speeches to villians are longer, somewhat more mature, but overall more pissed off, like with Freeza,

2) He's slightly less goofy, if we nitpick,

3) He's taller. The only thing that has really changed about him is that he's a father. Hell, he rarely acts like a husband to Chichi, so its hard to count his being married as any kind of advancement for him :p

Overall, the characters from Yu Yu Hakusho were based off your typical shonen fighting characters, hell, maybe even a little more than DB/DBZ. But they actually did change some...more. Kind of. Well actually, alot of the characters stayed the same as well:

1) Kuwabara: He remained more or less the same lovable, noble idiot. He gained new powers as anyone else, but the only real change in his dynamic was that he fell for Hiei's sister (I'm terribly with names). That added to his character instead of changing. Its development, but that's basically it.

2)Most of Kurama's changes were- -in the backstory in the flashback in the early episode describing how he was a thief that grew to love the woman who had him as a human child. He didn't really change much after meeting Yusuke and telling him all this.

Compared to Yusuke's growth from punk to a man (I think that's vague enough, and anyone can see that's kinda the deal with him from the 1st episode), Hiei's growth from an evil, selfish theif that wants to find his sister, but is there mostly for himself and doesn't care about the other heroes, to someone who cares about the team and grows to respect Yusuke and Koenma's mellowing out (a bit) near the end, actually Yu Yu Huksho doesn't have much character development as some think it does. There's the villians backstory, but that's it for the main characters.

Its above DB/DBZ's very little character development, but most fans are just impressed with its darker feel and the occasional darker themes and ideas.

And I'm okay with that. I don't want characters to remain stagnate, but let's face it: Most shows don't have huge fundamental changes in every episode, and really, we don't need them to either. Just something every once in awhile to liven things up, and to show that it's all going somewhere rather than just in circles.

Sketch

11-28-2006, 11:39 AM

Oh yes, because we all know that NOBODY under 18 watches Bleach, just like NOBODY over 14 watches Naruto. So that makes their ratings comparable easily. We don't have Adult Swim's numbers for Saturdays for the 9-14 and 6-11 demographic (vegetable's are mostly for weekday airings) so comparing the ratings for it to Naruto is just stupid. Just like comparing the 18-34 ratings to Naruto to the 18-34 ratings for Bleach. (I'm willing to bet there are less 18-34 viewers of Naruto than there are 9-14/6-11)

I've got some evidence. Though you folks may not care for it or feel it means anything.

I've tracked the total viewership of anime on CN and Adult Swim while that info was still being given out. Inuyasha is the only show to make Adult Swim's top 50 (if that) and Naruto got in CN's top 10 constantly and even took first place for a few months. Zatch Bell, One Piece (commonly) and even Bo-Bobo at least once showed greater strength in total viewership than Inuyasha on Adult Swim. "Second tier" shows on Toonami beat "First tier" shows on Adult Swim. In total viewership. It's apprent Bleach can get 300k constantly on Saturday Adult Swim. But that's just 18-34. If it was on earlier, you don't think the 9-14 numbers would be substantial? I sure do. If Zatch Bell can do well with 9-14 wouldn't an far more action packed and awesome show do even better? Seems like common sense to me.

And that's where I'm coming from.

I'm aware of YYH's final days. When it moved to Toonami initialy it was one of their top rated shows. I think it even beat DBZ ratings eventually. But Saturday night for whatever reason killed it. If it's pacing then you need only look at Naruto's ratings to determine if another shonen that's sluggish in places can do well with 9-14. Apparently it can. Bleach is closer to DBZ than Naruto is by far. I don't think it'd reach DBZ success nor did I think YYH would. But I do believe it'd be second to only Naruto on Toonami. Viz wants success out of this show, Adult Swim is giving it decent success and helping the manga sales. Toonami could do much more. There is no doubt in my mind.

So stop calling me out on it already. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Don't ask again, because you and everyone else on this board don't want me to type this kind of thing out again.

Mugen

11-28-2006, 04:54 PM

I've tracked the total viewership of anime on CN and Adult Swim while that info was still being given out. Inuyasha is the only show to make Adult Swim's top 50 (if that) and Naruto got in CN's top 10 constantly and even took first place for a few months. Zatch Bell, One Piece (commonly) and even Bo-Bobo at least once showed greater strength in total viewership than Inuyasha on Adult Swim. "Second tier" shows on Toonami beat "First tier" shows on Adult Swim. In total viewership. It's apprent Bleach can get 300k constantly on Saturday Adult Swim. But that's just 18-34. If it was on earlier, you don't think the 9-14 numbers would be substantial? I sure do. If Zatch Bell can do well with 9-14 wouldn't an far more action packed and awesome show do even better? Seems like common sense to me.

Do you mean "First tier" anime shows or all of them(like FG and Futurama)?

Master Moron

11-29-2006, 02:35 AM

Compared to the development Kuwabara, Yusuke, Hiei, Kurama, Keiko, and even Koenma go through, not to mention the development for Toguro and Sensui, I don't think it can really be said DB/Z had better character development than Yu Yu Hakusho.

I can maybe give you Kuwabara and Yuskuke, but I don't think Keiko and Kurama developed at all. And I always felt Hiei's development was ridiculously unrealistic compared to Vegeta's. I mean, Vegeta really had a gradual development from an evil character to a good character. Hiei basically went from evil in one episode, to good in the next. Sure, he still acted cold sometimes, but it just didn't seem like a realistic change at all.

And Toguro and Sensui? HA HA HA HA HA!!!!! Please tell me you're joking. Toguro is completely evil for the whole series, and then after he dies, he gives a mind bogglingly idiotic speech that's supposed to garner pity from us? And Sensui? So, he witnesses a bunch of demons being killed so he decides to open a portal to the demon world and risk total annihilation of mankind so he can fight Yusuke? That was seriously the stupidest character motivation I've ever heard in any anime, ever.

You know, some people wonder why Yu Yu Hakusho's ratings went down during the later parts of the series. It seems pretty obvious to me. I mean, if Goku defeated Freeza and Freeza gave some completely retarded explanation for why he liked blowing up planets in an attempt to elicit pity from the audience, I think it's ratings would have plummeted as well.

KuwabaraTheMan

11-29-2006, 02:42 AM

I can maybe give you Kuwabara and Yuskuke, but I don't think Keiko and Kurama developed at all. And I always felt Hiei's development was ridiculously unrealistic compared to Vegeta's. I mean, Vegeta really had a gradual development from an evil character to a good character. Hiei basically went from evil in one episode, to good in the next. Sure, he still acted cold sometimes, but it just didn't seem like a realistic change at all.
Hiei still had a lot of development in his interaction with everyone else, and his motivations and backstory got more development in the final arc.

And Toguro and Sensui? HA HA HA HA HA!!!!! Please tell me you're joking. Toguro is completely evil for the whole series, and then after he dies, he gives a mind bogglingly idiotic speech that's supposed to garner pity from us?
Yeah, it is supposed to garner pity. Toguro wasnt a good guy, but he was a reflection of what happens when someone gets completely broken. In order to atone for what he did, he turned himself into a monster, and suffered eternal youth, becoming the thing he hated, until someone who could accomplish what he could not came along.

I'd consider that pretty developed.
And Sensui? So, he witnesses a bunch of demons being killed so he decides to open a portal to the demon world and risk total annihilation of mankind so he can fight Yusuke? That was seriously the stupidest character motivation I've ever heard in any anime, ever.
I don't see what's stupid about Sensui's motivation. He lived his life seeing the world in black and white, good and evil. He has his whole world shaken upside down, and he becomes bitter and wants to get rid of humans, because he believes that humans are corrupt and their presence needs to be elliminated. I don't see how that's a stupid character motivation. He was trying to cleanse the Earth.

And where are those characters from Dragonball aside from Vegeta, Piccolo, and Tenshinhan who developed, again?

Duke

11-29-2006, 02:50 AM

Sketch

11-29-2006, 03:04 AM

Do you mean "First tier" anime shows or all of them(like FG and Futurama)?

Obviously I meant the anime. Naruto can't touch Family Guy's ratings even when FG isn't pulling in numbers as well as it did last year.

HG Revolution

11-29-2006, 03:00 PM

I'm aware of YYH's final days. When it moved to Toonami initialy it was one of their top rated shows. I think it even beat DBZ ratings eventually. But Saturday night for whatever reason killed it. If it's pacing then you need only look at Naruto's ratings to determine if another shonen that's sluggish in places can do well with 9-14. Apparently it can. Bleach is closer to DBZ than Naruto is by far. I don't think it'd reach DBZ success nor did I think YYH would. But I do believe it'd be second to only Naruto on Toonami. Viz wants success out of this show, Adult Swim is giving it decent success and helping the manga sales. Toonami could do much more. There is no doubt in my mind.

Nobody minds once-a-week premieres.

Once-a-week RERUNS is what kills shows.

YYH was obviously doing decently if they bothered to rerun it but since CN didn't put those reruns on weekdays, its ratings dropped badly. People might go out of their way to watch a new episode of a show they really liked on a Saturday, but very few would bother with a repeat on what's the most inconvenient TV viewing day of the week. This seems to be Saturday Toonami's biggest error. Anything that doesn't work on Miguzi doesn't work anywhere outside of Toonami itself. It killed MEGAS, it killed YYH, and it could potentially kill Bleach. It's bad business sense on CN's behalf, but AS at least guarentees a weekday run or two.

Toonami today isn't the block it was years ago. Had the block of years ago still be around, I'd totally jump on the BSBOT camp. However, if the show is destined to die as even Toonami's bigger hits have, I'd rather have it do so respectfully on AS rather than on a whimper at 5 AM on a Friday.

shoujoaifan

11-29-2006, 04:14 PM

Eh, on the whole I kinda preferred DBZ's villains more than YYH's villains. Freeza just had charisma, Cell was just pretty slimy (though I will admit there were too many times were he was seemingly killed only to regenerate), and Buu was pretty fun to watch (even if his arc sucked). Toguro was good up until his death, when he just became pathetic, and Sensui was good until his various personalities came into the picture. Then everything became contrived.I liked both series' villians, but DBZ's were definately more fun.

I didn't have too much problem with Toguro's backstory: Especially the stuff with Genkai, although I did have to shake my head at the cheesiness at his death speech.

Sensui, whom I did like for the most part, actually did piss me off some when: his "true" self appears. Seriously, the fact his other parts of his personality that did all those evil deeds allowed his true or core self to achieve some kind of righteous power that only monks with decades of meditating and being pure can achieve? YEAH. RIGHT. Unless having dissociative personality disorder splits someone's soul into little souls in YuYu, I'm not buying it. Its a shounen, so logic goes out the door, but COME ON.

Should I be bothering to use spoiler boxes at all? :sweat:

I mean, no offense guys, but while I'm sure most people here have seen these series, there could still be someone out there that we're spoiling shows for. If this was an official "DragonBall Z Talkback" or "Yu Yu Hakusho Talkback", that would be one thing.

The Myst

11-29-2006, 07:26 PM

With the time that they've been around and the amount of replay Dragonball has gotten, I can't imagine that anybody who wants to see either show hasn't seen them.

Sketch

11-30-2006, 12:07 AM

Nobody minds once-a-week premieres.

Once-a-week RERUNS is what kills shows.

YYH was obviously doing decently if they bothered to rerun it but since CN didn't put those reruns on weekdays, its ratings dropped badly. People might go out of their way to watch a new episode of a show they really liked on a Saturday, but very few would bother with a repeat on what's the most inconvenient TV viewing day of the week. This seems to be Saturday Toonami's biggest error. Anything that doesn't work on Miguzi doesn't work anywhere outside of Toonami itself. It killed MEGAS, it killed YYH, and it could potentially kill Bleach. It's bad business sense on CN's behalf, but AS at least guarentees a weekday run or two.

Toonami today isn't the block it was years ago. Had the block of years ago still be around, I'd totally jump on the BSBOT camp. However, if the show is destined to die as even Toonami's bigger hits have, I'd rather have it do so respectfully on AS rather than on a whimper at 5 AM on a Friday.

Got burned too many times have we?

Haven't we all?

I think Bleach would be strong enough to hold its own and stay on the block as Zatch Bell has. It's even more accessible than Naruto IMO because it's not as bogged down with politics and also doesn't get as dark. But those are the very reasons why I find more 18+ that love Naruto (and One Piece) than Bleach. But Bleach certainly has its fans.

But as I mentioned on the thread in the Toonami board some time ago. It may very well have been the lack of a guarenteed weekday slot that pushed Bleach to Adult Swim. Not even Naruto has a 10PM weekday slot anymore and if it can't then I imagine Bleach wouldn't hold one long either. The current CN does not breed edgy shounen well. They really should get over that but until they do Toonami shows that don't fit Miguzi (and therefore shouldn't be on Toonami in the first place) are fresh out of luck. Where's my Bo-Bobo reruns? They've got 50, the least they could do is air them early in the morning for now next to the dedicated Hasbro slot. Instead we see more Miguzi shows leave that block and end up on Toonami for whatever reason (I'm looking at you Yu-Gi-Oh! GX).

None the less, Bleach is at best a show aimed at teenagers and while CN doesn't much care for teen ratings, Adult Swim doesn't care at all. All they hope for out of teenagers if for them to stick around when they're 18 and older but they're not about to market directly to them.

Besides a Mattel toyline (a crappy one I might add), Naruto and Bleach's marketing has been pretty much the same. Merchadise at Hot Topic, collectors items available through Toynami and so on and so forth. So it makes very little sense to me that they're on very differently targeted animation blocks while they're marketed just about the same. That's my two cents on that part of the topic.

Master Moron

11-30-2006, 01:48 PM

Yeah, it is supposed to garner pity. Toguro wasnt a good guy, but he was a reflection of what happens when someone gets completely broken. In order to atone for what he did, he turned himself into a monster, and suffered eternal youth, becoming the thing he hated, until someone who could accomplish what he could not came along.

I'd consider that pretty developed.

Ummm...why couldn't he just kill himself? Besides, I fail to see why it's necessary to become an evil monster in order to get someone to kill him. There were plenty of demons in demon world that would have been strong enough to kill him.

I don't see what's stupid about Sensui's motivation. He lived his life seeing the world in black and white, good and evil. He has his whole world shaken upside down, and he becomes bitter and wants to get rid of humans, because he believes that humans are corrupt and their presence needs to be elliminated. I don't see how that's a stupid character motivation. He was trying to cleanse the Earth.

Well, first of all, most 8 year olds realize the world isn't black and white. I mean, if Sensui didn't realize that there were evil humans in the world he had to have been retarded.

Second, Sensui said that he actually only attempted to open the gate to demon world to lure Yusuke into fighting him. I missed one or two episodes when the show moved to 5 a.m., so maybe that had something to do with his multiple personalities, but from what I saw his motivation didn't seem to make any sense.

Third, Sensui's ugly. This has nothing to do with his motivation, but I just felt the need to mention this.

And where are those characters from Dragonball aside from Vegeta, Piccolo, and Tenshinhan who developed, again?

Well, the thing is, in some ways I actually prefer pure evil villains to those that have depth. And I certainly prefer villains who are pure evil to villains who attempt to get audience sympathy with nonsensical sob stories. I honestly, don't understand why the creator feels the need to half ass a tragic backstory onto so many of the villains.