"Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker" Feature Talkback (Spoilers)

[James Harvey]

Welcome to the first talkback thread for Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker, for both edited and unedited of this film! Given the sustained popularity of this topic, specifically the differences between the edited and unedited versions of this film, it was an easy decision to make this the first big talkback for the forum. Stay tuned for more talkbacks on the related comics, episodes, and movies of the animated DC Universe! And now . . . Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker!

http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/beyond/episodes/rotj/media/11.jpg
Courtesy of The World's Finest (http://www.worldsfinestonline.com/WF/beyond/)

Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker
December 12th, 2000 - Video Release / April 23, 2002 - Video Release of "Uncut" Version

Written by: Paul Dini
Directed by: Curt Geda

Synopsis: Batman (Terry McGinnis) must deal with the threat of The Joker, who has mysteriously appeared in the future, and with the revelations of Bruce Wayne's past. This new Joker knows all about Bruce! But what does this have to do with Tim Drake?

Comments?

Related Threads:
-"Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker" Feature Talkback (Spoilers) (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30562).

Note: This thread is for discussion on both the edited and unedited version of this film. Click here (http://worldsfinestonline.com/WF/beyond/backstage/rotjedits/) to view the differences between the films. The uncut version of Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker was released on April 23, 2002! The thread has been altered accordingly!

[Kylewayne]

One thing that always got me was just how Dana really got smacked around in this movie. I'm surprised she hasn't dumped him yet because this isn't the first time!

Do you think Dana would run from Terry after this? I do not think that Dana would run away from Terry. I think it would bring them closer together. Sure Dana is a bit snobby and spoiled but I think that deep down she really likes Terry :) I only think that she is fed up with him disappearing all the time and spending too much time with Bruce Wayne (even old i still think he looks hot :p and :cool: ) [COLOR=blue]

[DR. BELCH]

Well, if Dana did break away and run, it would let Terry know what kind of dame she is. I mean, whether you want to chalk it up to several writers who can't agree on just what her character is or the girl herself who can't decide what to be (typical, I guess, for a teen), she runs hot and cold...one minute all peaches and cream, and the next jealous and sulky (cf. "Untouchable"). Even in this movie she seems portrayed a bit unevenly. I suppose it depends on her maturity level, and if she isn't grown-up enough to accept Terry's night life, he'd be better off without her. (Still, Nelson?!? You're lucky Brian didn't put in a vomiting smiley, junior! :D )

Then again, some men have built their lifestyles on a woman's rejection. The Mad Hatter's villiany was born out of unrequited love for a secretary...and I've mentioned before how a man named Eric Magnus was once corrupted by a wife's love turned cold.

[Kylewayne]

Dana is just being a typical teenager. I agree that she does not know what she wants but you can't blame her for having a boyfriend like Terry. Besides I think that Terry is the one who is confused and all :confused: This *ahem* typical male teen does not know what he really wants in life. Everyone knows he took on the mantle of the BAT because he found out Bruce's secret and because he wants to make-up for his days as a rebel kid out of control.
Sure he has proven to Bruce that he is worthy to fill in his shoes but is he really ready to take on the responsibility? Bruce had more time to train and practice before becoming Batman. I am still not used to seeing Terry as the new Batman :( Terry lacks the dark mysterious aura that Bruce/Batman had and still has btw :D
I see Terry as another Nightwing or Robin learning under the tutelage of Bruce( the master and true BATMAN :) ...well in my eyes :p )

[Blight]

Well, Dana seems pretty attached to Terry (he's missed so many dates but she still sticks with him!) so I think she would stay with Terry if he revealed to her his secret. She might even like it. Of course, since BB is ending we will never know.

See ya!
Blight

[Inque]

dana would run screaming after she found out that inque gave terry a huge "you're an idiot" kiss in disappearing inque.............:rolleyes:

[James]

If Dana found out Terry's secret? Hmm, she'd stay. I'd say definitely. She cares a hell of a lot for him and puts up with his poor time keeping (plus dating the Bat must be sooo cool to for a Gotham teen - even if they can't tell anyone!)

However I don't think it would last. She would now know WHY he was always late. She would also know that this wasn't a part time job like she suspected. Terry is not going to give this up.

She puts up with his part time work for Wayne because she believes it's only temporary. When she realizes that she will be competing with this dual identity for life she will leave.

Tough luck Terry old chum!

[oranthal]

if ROTJ went to theater, how much do think it would have grossed? i'm talking about the uncut version of course. and let's be realistic, even though it was a great movie, it wouldn't have grossed $100 million just because it is animated and not from disney. do you think it would have more than Titan AE? how much did that make?

[The Mad Hatter]

Oooh, a portrait of Raistlin! I'd be tempted to use a portrait of Fizban, if I could find one.

Anyway, I agree with you, it probably wouldn't make $100 million. Its chances would be pretty limited indeed, considering that the American public at large is weirded out by animation that's not directly for kids (Simpsons aside, which everyone assumes to be a fluke). Not to mention the fact that WB did a truly horrible job on marketing Iron Giant, and that was a damn good flick the critics went ape over. So, I'll give two estimates:

If WB advertised ROTJ like Iron Giant: $10-15 million. Let's face it, practically nobody saw MOTP when it came out, and it didn't have an ad push either.

If WB did a decent job of advertising it: $30-40 million. The critics would probably like it, and it would probably have generated decent word-of-mouth in the teen set. Most adults would still be a tad confused by it.

Either way, it would have made WB a decent profit... it didn't cost that much to make (relatively speaking, compared to the average made-for-the screen animated movie). Then again, they just relied on their Pokemon cash cow... grumble.

By the way, here's hoping Atlantis finally changes people's minds about more mature animation.

[Calhoun07]

By the way, here's hoping Atlantis finally changes people's minds about more mature animation. [/B]

Titan AE already accomplished that. Many adults discovered the movie on home video and DVD that never saw it in the theater and aren't even animation fans as a whole to begin with. I think Atlantis will reach more people than Titan AE, but I don't think it will do the buisiness at the box office Disney is used to seeing on their animated musicals, however. More than likely, Atlantis will be discovered by more people on home video and DVD. The good news this time around is that, unlike Fox Animation studios, Disney won't close their doors if Atlantis fails to make a certain amount of money at the box office.

And just for the record, I think Atlantis will be better than Titan AE by a long shot.

[Failure]

Atlantis does look like the first cool Disney Movie they've put out in a while. I definitely like the more mature feel I'm seeing from it.

As for ROTJ and the money it makes, I think it could go as high as $50 million, but with all the violence controversies, I'm sure a lot of parents wouldn't be willing ot take their little kids to it, so I guess around the $20-30mil range.

[optimal321]

WB did a crappy job of adverising ROTJ as is. I saw a commercial for it, like twice, and it was the same one. Even the people at school who i talk about Batman and such w/ never heard of it. If not for this site, who knows...

[steaming79]

who knows...but it would've got my 5 bucks.

[Jedi Knight]

The Mask of the Phantasm made about $5 million in it's original run in the theatres. It wasn't backed by much advertising, but it still didn't make much of an impact, even though it was critically acclaimed (it's the only Batman-related movie that for 2 thumbs up).

ROTJ wouldn't have done too much better. Even if it was supported by WB (which is doubtful), I highly doubt it would've made over $10 million, simply because it's not aimed at little children. Only true Batman Beyond fans would show up. Even people who like Batman probably wouldn't bother, because it's way in the future and everything is unfamiliar (except the Joker, I guess).

WB probably made the right decision to release it direct-to-video, 'cause it likely would've been in the red if it went to the theatres first.

[ShadowsofBlack]

In my opinion, had the movie been released in theathers, it may not have done too well, simply because America is still not comfortable with animated violence unless it has a humorous overture to it. But, this movie, had it been backed 1/10 as much as any of the crappy Pokemon movies (I have a baby brother, and I'll watch anything if I'm not working) may have made enough to make an impact. Animation is an art form that can no longer be shunned. With increasingly detestable live-action movies coming out, there should be an alternative. Hell, I'm working on a BB script now. I call it "Vengeance and The Night" after that commercial that used to come on Cartoon Network. I'm certain with a little hype it can make a modest gross of $30 or so million.

And I can say that because I am proud to be a stupid American. Anyway, the last two live action Batman movies, which I hold so much disdain for I will not dignify them by naming either, grossed at least $50 mil a piece simply because they were live action. Batman:The Animated series won an Emmy for Christ's Sake, and it's movie counterpart Mask of The Phantasm got two thumbs up. That's critical acclaim, baby. I blame America's attitude towards anything not Disney related. They'll gladly splurge (is that a word?) their money on a re-released Disney movie than something like Batman. Perhaps if someone with a big name, a Spielberg or the original Batman director Tim Burton were attached to it, it may give it more credibility as a legitimate movie. It's a little late for Bruce's Batman, but Terry's deserves at least that type of consideration.

[The Mad Hatter]

Keep in mind that MOTP got a fairly limited release, compared to the average. If it had gotten an "average" release (talking number of theaters, here), it could have garnered an extra $5 mill, maybe even 10. But yeah, WB didn't really advertise it at all.

Come to think of it, the only thing WB DID do a decent job of advertising was (dare I bring it back to public memory?) Quest for Camelot, and it was pretty darn crappy. Oh, and all that Poke-stuff.

[James]

Titan AE already accomplished that. Many adults discovered the movie on home video and DVD that never saw it in the theater and aren't even animation fans as a whole to begin with.

Which I think is exactly the problem here. Titan AE bombed in the cinemas. REALLY bombed. Effectively bankrupting the studio that had made it.

Titan sales may have been made up for some of the loss in the home market, but I imagine companies such as Fox and WB are going to be VERY nervous about releasing another adult anime to the big screen for sometime time now.... certainly they aren't going to give any anime film the advertisment backing they deserve... I imagine ROTJ wasn't considered for cinema release due to Titan AE's proof over the unpredictable nature of the adult anime market.

[oranthal]

Originally posted by Failure
Atlantis does look like the first cool Disney Movie they've put out in a while. I definitely like the more mature feel I'm seeing from it.




the thing about Atlantis is that it *is* a disney movie. will it attract an adult crowd because it is a mature animated film or will the lil' kids see the "disney" name and want to go see it? the success for this film might not prove that america is ready for a mature animated film unless how much the makes is broken down into age categories.

[nightwing_38116]

To those of you who have [legally] seen the UNCUT, was it worth it and do you still plan on buying a TRUE UNCUT version should WB have the gonads to do release one? I know that they've "said " that they will, however, with their track record (*remember when they told us no/minimal cuts?), until I've got it in my grubby little hands I won't believe it.

Will we ever see a Batman animated series again in production? In your opinion of course.

[Fish]

I will buy the uncut DVD if it ever comes out. That's for sure!

I don't know if we ever are going to see a animated batmanseries again, but I sure hope we do cuz it's the best show ever made!!!!! I mean...how many cartoonshows have managed to capture the hearts of people from the age of 4 to 50? ( and maybe more)

BTAS (all of it) is, was the best ever!!!

<>< F I S H ><>

[Bird Boy]

My Idea of the Ultimate ROTJoker DVD:

The Arkham scene w/ Bruce (old) and terry following him in, finished, and inserted into the movie.

The Pierce and Bruce sceen added into the movie.

4 episodes of Batman Beyond that tie up all loose ends.

A non-snap case (I HATE THOSE!), but in a case similiar to the X-Men one, or somthing of the sort.

Everything that was on the first DVD, but w/ the added above (and maybe some harder trivia)...and a new Commentary.

Both versions of the film (hmm..this sounds like it's turning out to be a double disc...has WB ever done a double disc??), edited, and un-edited.

WIDESCREEN version (Didn't Mr. Timm promise us one of those?)

That's all I can think of. What about you guys? How would you like it? Course, if I get it my way, then their will be 3 versions of the film (Edited, Un-Edited, and Un-edited w/ the 2 sceens added in). So ,to answer your question in short: Yes, I will buy ROTJ un-edited on DVD w/o question. the day it comes out, I will rush out to buy it (mainly cuz the quality of my current un-edited copy, and the japenese subtitles..course.I got it for free..and I'll still keep it after I get it un-edited.. thanks again JediKnight!)

-Bird_Boy

[Maxie Zeus]

With the movie versions in development, I do think there's a better than even chance of a relaunch of BTAS or BB, or both. WB is nothing if not adept at promotional exploitation, and I don't see them passing up the opportunity.

[redDragon]

Yeah I'd buy it....if I had the money :D kinda annoyed at the nice little print a the bottom telling ya not to reproduce it and sell it and to call a certian number if ya did ^^'

[James Harvey]

You can bet I'll get it. WB did a double disc set with JFK...and it was still a snapper case. The other disc was housed on the inside flap of the cardboard cover. I'd really love to see WB do the 'keep case' format, and not the friggin 'snapper case' format, which just really bugs me. I'd love to see a supped up DVD disc.

Now, let's get back and focus on Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker!

[Nightwing]

Originally posted by nightwing_38116
Will we ever see a Batman animated series again in production? In your opinion of course.

Batman Beyond had it's harsh enemies, and it's slight problems, so it won't live as strongly as Batman did, but there's one thing I DO know, and that's that Batman never stops. it's the best story ever told, so I know years from now we'll still see more. It's just that I'm slightly worried about that with the scuffle still going on between Timm and Dini. We gotta help those guys get it in gear and back together. Bruce and Terry NEED them!

And because of that, should a nice full special edition UNEDITED ROTJ DVD come out, I deman the profits go to who they should, not the WB jerks that put us through all the ROTJ mess.

[Man of Steel]

Hey:

I think that we will see another Batman series in the future but of course I hope it's not on the WB, cause I don't won't the show to be cut down on the volience and I don't want the color to be really bright, so if we get another show I hope that it will premier on the Cartoon Network. And about Return of the Joker, I hope that Cartoon Network will show Return of the Joker Uncut even though I have seen the uncut version of the movie, and I hope that WB will release it on video cause the true Batman fans deserve it cause we all waited a long time for this movie.:o

[Knight]

I'd love to see BB:ROTJ uncut officially released. I never liked the fact that they changed the movie and refused to buy the cut version. So If they ever come out with it I'm definitely getting it.

[James Harvey]

The new head of WBA actually likes animation, so maybe we will get it soon...

[Calhoun07]

After recent discussions on this movie on this board, I felt it was best to sit down and just watch it again. Rather than posting replies on the threads already in progress, I figured I'd just make my couple comments on this thread. This is in response mainly to the rant thread about Batman Beyond and about did Batman kill the Joker.

First, a thought about the rant: Bruce Wayne doesn't even think of Terry as BATMAN! He calls him a dumb kid, no different than the rest. In that one statement, he clearly placed Terry on the same plane as Nightwing, Robin, and Batgirl. Clearly, Batman Beyond could have just as easilly been Nightwing Beyond, thus enforcing the validity of the rant previously posted on this board.

In regards to did Batman kill the Joker. I paid real close attention to the parts about that chip in Tim's neck. The old Joker encoded that chip with his own DNA and implanted it into Tim's neck. It sounds very technical and complicated, and I doubt I could really get into all the ins and outs of this technology introduced in this story, but if the original Joker transferred his DNA to Tim and programmed the chip to allow that DNA to take over Tim's body and to transform him into a modern day Joker, that modern day Joker may be a clone of the orginal Joker, but it is not the original Joker. No more than a clone of myself would be the original me. A clone is quite similar to a twin of the person cloned.

Given that, I would have to say that the modern day Joker was every bit sentient in every possible facet previously discussed in the "Did Batman Kill" thread. A clone is not a souless being, that is for sure. A clone is not a work of man, just genetic manipulation of the DNA God put in us which is the blue print for life. I don't want to get too deep in it right now, but suffice to say, by all appearances, it wasn't a computer chip Batman destroyed, it was the very DNA of Joker's clone. He did kill the Joker. The computer chip just allowed the DNA to grow and take over Tim's body, and while the computer chip wasn't the Joker itself, when Batman destroyed it, he destroyed the DNA. Or could he have? Perhaps Tim still has Joker's DNA in his body? Who knows? If it grew that much, who is to say that simply destroying the computer chip was adequate enough to eradicate the Joker's DNA from Tim's system.

Now, that's getting into genitics and the medical field, and I am afraid I am not too knowlegeable in that area. But watching the movie again certainly made it clear that it wasn't the equivialent of an android Batman killed, that's for sure.

[Huntress]

But .....

if the joker only implanted his DNA into Tim then he hasn't implanted himself, just a copy of himself ... let's say the real Joker was still about and hadn't been killed already by Tim, then the DNA Terry destroyed would simply be a copy of the one that existed - Joker would still be alive.

Tim killed the original Joker. Terry destroyed a copy of the Joker but not the real thing.

And, I agree with your observation that Bruce doesn't consider Terry to be Batman. He compliments him on a few occassions and tells him he's doing a good job and is a fair comparison. You're right that this shouldn't be Batman Beyond per se but NO WAY should it be Nightwing!! Dude, don't use that name in vain!! There can be only one DG :p (sorry! - big Nightwing fan ... case you hadn't guessed ...)

[Calhoun07]

You can't just brush off the life Batman took at the end of ROTJ because it is a "copy." By all rights, a clone is the genetic equivalent to a twin. So, if you see identical twins walking down the street, it's ok to kill one of them because one of them is just a copy of the other??? Cloning may be debateable on ethical grounds, but a cloned life is still a life. It's just genetic manipulation, creating an identical twin when one wasn't made in the womb itself.

And I didn't mean to imply Batman Beyond should be called Nightwing Beyond. That was mentioned in the rant posted previously that the show MIGHT AS WELL be called that, because Terry is NOT Batman. But Batman is a more marketable name, clearly.

[DarkAngel]

Originally posted by calhoun07

First, a thought about the rant: Bruce Wayne doesn't even think of Terry as BATMAN! He calls him a dumb kid, no different than the rest. In that one statement, he clearly placed Terry on the same plane as Nightwing, Robin, and Batgirl.

You're wrong. I replied to this idea in another thread, but I'll do it again here. Previously, I said Bruce admitted he was wrong. Not entirely accurate. He never literally said "you're not actually a stupid kid." However, it was clear from his words to Terry at the end that he regarded him very highly for what he brought to Batman. The fact is, earlier in the film, Bruce was afraid for Terry's life. Hence his anger and usage of the words "stupid kid." He didn't want another tragedy like Tim Drake. He was wrong to believe Terry couldn't handle himself and the proof of this is in the very fact he ignored their previous argument. He never gave the suit back to Terry or asked him back. He ignored the fact the words had ever been spoken by him. Terry tells Bruce later that he was never a like Bruce's old partners, never a Robin. Bruce doesn't disagree with any of that. And admits at that point that he didn't want what happened to Tim Drake to happen to Terry. At the end, Bruce acknowledged everything Terry had said before when he said that Terry makes Batman worthwhile. Bruce does see Terry as Batman.

[Salvor]

Originally posted by DarkAngel
You're wrong. (...) Bruce does see Terry as Batman.
I just agree with you. Nothing to add. When Bruce calls Terry a stupid kid, he's just peeved and distressed, and Bruce Wayne is well known for the lack of tact he displays in such situations. By the way, to my mind, and though he'll never admit it, he considers Nightwing an equal. In the mainstream comics it's pretty obvious. And *to me* it's a fact in the animated series as well.

[Calhoun07]

Sorry you all, I fell asleep during the last ten minutes or so of that movie last night (I watched it really late) and back tracked only enough to find the part where Joker explained how he was able to transform Tim in to the Joker. I forgot and missed the part where Bruce conceded his earlier statement!

With that cleared up, what about Batman killing the Joker at the end of the movie?

[Clayface]

Originally posted by calhoun07
You can't just brush off the life Batman took at the end of ROTJ because it is a "copy." By all rights, a clone is the genetic equivalent to a twin.



Well, yes and no. He didn't really kill a clone though - the body still lived, just the genetics changed. He destroyed a bit of genetic information - that's not necessarily killing. I can take a blood sample from you, which has you're DNA, and destroy it. Does that mean I'm a killer? I don't think so. I can take a computer file with your personal info on it, and destroy it. Again, it doesn't make me a killer. And that's what Terry destroyed - he destroyed a combo of genetic material and electronic gadgetry - a DNA "file", but he left the body (Tim's) alive. So its still a pretty vague question about whether or not Terry "killed".

[Calhoun07]

But the new Joker was more than just a blood sample, wasn't he? Perhaps the DNA he used to implant into that chip was a blood sample, but the DNA grew into a living being, capable of taking over Tim's body and making his own choices and developing his own agenda. That makes him MUCH more than just a blood sample. Given time, that blood sample that became a fully grown cloned version of Joker would have taken over Tim's body all together. Would it have been murder then?

You know, this whole plot in Batman ROTJ sounds like a plot for a bad B Movie, doesn't it? THE CLONE THAT TOOK OVER MY BODY!

[Clayface]

Originally posted by calhoun07
But the new Joker was more than just a blood sample, wasn't he? Perhaps the DNA he used to implant into that chip was a blood sample, but the DNA grew into a living being, capable of taking over Tim's body and making his own choices and developing his own agenda.



Well, now that's debatable. I don't see it as a "separate" being. I always though of it in this way: there were two aspects of the gadget. One was bioligical "splicer" if you will - it spliced in Joker's DNA, making Tim physically look like the Joker. But just giving Tim the DNA wouldn't have made him think and act like the Joker, necessarily. So, I always assumed the "personality" was another aspect of the gadget (I don't remember how much of this was specifically said in the movie, and how much of it was my own imagination). The gadget implanted the DNA for the physical characteristics, but it also "reprogrammed" Tim - sort of overlaying the Joker's thought patterns on Tim's brain. And, as we know, to create new memories and ideas in the human brain, we need to have repetition, so that new neural pathways are laid down. So I always thought of it like this - every time the "joker" came out, it was the device laying down/overlaying these pathways. Each time it happened, the pathways got closer and closer to becoming permanent, and thus it was a gradual "taking over" of Tim's mind. So, in this way, its not really a separate being taking over Tim, but just the gadget gradually converting him into a clone or copy. Since the process was never completed, and Tim remained alive, I don't see it as killing.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by Clayface
But just giving Tim the DNA wouldn't have made him think and act like the Joker, necessarily. So, I always assumed the "personality" was another aspect of the gadget. The gadget implanted the DNA for the physical characteristics, but it also "reprogrammed" Tim - sort of overlaying the Joker's thought patterns on Tim's brain.

This is marvelously put. DNA all by itself wouldn't do anything except change Tim's physical appearance, the way "mutagens" in BB are always wreaking havoc (Blight, Earth Mover, Big Time, etc.). On the other hand, the neural-personality changes all by themselves were enough to make things bad. I mean, suppose Tim-as-the-Joker didn't change physically, but still thought and acted like the Joker; much of the same evil would have followed.

This means that the DNA is probably irrelevant to questions about "killing." So suppose the Joker hadn't planted DNA in that chip, and only planted the neural thing-a-ma-bobby. Would Terry have been "killing" something simply by shorting out the chip?

[Calhoun07]

If the transformation of Tim took place the way Clayface postulated, I am inclined to agree with him. Thus Batman deactivating the chip and stopping the manipulation of Tim's brain would no more be murder than a psychiatrist "killing" an alternate personality in a schitzophrenic personality.

You know, do you think Paul Dini would have imagined this kind of debate would go on about the ending of his movie when he wrote it?

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by calhoun07
You know, do you think Paul Dini would have imagined this kind of debate would go on about the ending of his movie when he wrote it?

Naw, he was laying awake nights feeling horrible about pushing Harley over a cliff. :p

[Clayface]

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus

Naw, he was laying awake nights feeling horrible about pushing Harley over a cliff. :p


LMAO!!!! :D

[DR. BELCH]

I'm still feeling out of place having yet to see ROTJ...but as I've said before, without getting into a long harrangue about souls and such, I believe that a person is alive if their brain shows activity. Respiration can have nearly ceased, the heart can beat just once per minute, and the limbs can be crippled or atrophied to nearly nothing...but if the brain still works there is hope (I saw a case like this once on Unsolved Mysteries, in which a woman froze almost to death in her car yet made a full recovery). Call me a cold hard realist, but the brain is everything.
Now...Joker had a brain. Technically it was Drake's, if I understand correctly, and the clown is little more than a parasite/symbiote in this instance, but he meets my requirement for being living. Same with Ra's in "Out of the Past"--whether he downloaded himself into Talia's head using Vance's theories or actually grafted all or part of his physical grey matter into his daughter's skull (the thought of which still reulses me in all its incestuousness), the old devil lives, albeit in a borrowed skin. If Bruce had his way he would have removed Ras, sent the usurping b*st*rd to whatever hell awaits him, and given Talia's body a decent burial.

So is it murder? In Ra's case he sealed his (her?) own fate. As for Joker, it might have been nicer if he could have been given the gas chamber or a lethal injection 40 years ago...but crushing a computer chip deserves about as much consideration as killing a flea or a leech. Unfortunately if the process killed Drake too, he should be considered a casualty of a war he never should have fought and given a hero's grave.

As for Harley...I envisoned her in the future as old, fat, grey, chain-smoking, gravelly-voiced, and the mother to at least one of Joker's spawn. Oddly enough I'm almost glad Dini had her die young and possibly with some sense of dignity/honor.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by DR. BELCH
I'm still feeling out of place having yet to see ROTJ...

Gosh, you really need to see ROTJ. I don't mean because it'll make it easier to understand this thread, but just because. . . . Well, you just really need to see it. :D

In the film, the explanation surrounding the chip is on a level with the typical "Star Trek" technobabble; about the only difference is that the Joker didn't have to recalibrate the sensor array so it could emit magic beans (or whatever; that's not a damn sensor array on those starships, it's a Swiss Army Knife gone to graduate school). Joker says he planted a chip containing his DNA on Drake; physically and mentally this human body switches back and forth between Drake and Joker -- kind of like a radio switching between FM and AM.

One important aspect that Clayface pointed out is that the presence of DNA all by itself can't explain these transformations; DNA does not carry mental information, so this chip must SEPARATELY carry information (Joker memories and dispostions, etc.) that rewire the brain. Joker/Drake most closely resembles a werewolf, or Dr. Jeckyll/Mr. Hyde; the physical explanation is different but it looks just the same on the surface. When Batman fries the chip the Joker side disappears. Drake himself survives, so Drake is not a casualty, but is like a werewolf after the curse has been lifted.

Now, with regard to werewolfs and Mr. Hyde, I guess we're not inclined to think of those dual aspects as being separate things that are "killed" when they are exorcised. But because of the peculiar technological basis of the resurrected Joker in this case, it seems not quite so easy to dismiss that possibility.

As for Harley: My joke actually doesn't square with the facts of the film. She does show up briefly in the ROTJ timeline, old and fat and gaseous, with granddaughters. But the ROTJ screenplay does have a Bruce Timm cartoon that shows Dini weeping uncontrollably as he writes her flashback death scene, while Timm trains a gun on him: "Just keep writing," Timm says coolly.

[Calhoun07]

The main thing I am left wondering...If the Joker chip only made Tim into some kind of schitzophrenic or even into some kind of Dr Jekle Mr Hyde character, and it was all a psychological thing, then how did the new Joker's voice exactly match the old Joker's voice? That almost suggests to me that some how, Joker's DNA was turning Tim into an exact cloned copy of the original Joker.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by calhoun07
If the Joker chip only made Tim into some kind of schitzophrenic or even into some kind of Dr Jekle Mr Hyde character, and it was all a psychological thing, then how did the new Joker's voice exactly match the old Joker's voice? That almost suggests to me that some how, Joker's DNA was turning Tim into an exact cloned copy of the original Joker.


Well, this is exactly what I was saying - I think that if things had continued, Tim would have been an exact clone/copy of the Joker. The voice would have come from both aspects. The wording and tones used would have been a product of the brain overlay, and the pitch would have been affected by the DNA aspect - the DNA splicing turning Tim's vocal chords into an identical copy. The brain overlay controls the personality, the DNA controls the physical characteristics.

[James]

What an interesting debate - pity I missed it!

I think Clayface's hypothesis is pretty much the most likely (or even the only) possibility. I think I'll throw a couple of other points into the pot. Forgive me if these have been mentioned before.

Once again, and perhaps playing Devil's Advocate a little more than I should, does the Joker's implant truely mimic the ethics of curing mulitple personality disorders?

The injected personality/character is not part of the victims soul, and is therefore alien to the host - more a parasite that a multiple personality, it's slowly eating away at the host until it gains full control.
Now whether the the personality implant is mechanical or somehow biological seems somewhat irrelevant to the point it's not a simple case of curing a muliple personality.

To me the question comes back to whether it was a personality or a programme.

As Clayface said, the DNA implant was to make physical characteristics, and a seperate 'implant' to affect the mind.
How is the mind affected? Is it a personality or just a programme?

Intially, I always got the impression that the Joker somehow basically implanted his personality/memories from pretty much the time he activated the chip. Now I'm not so sure. The new Joker made no real references to his past which the personality matrix could not have learned from Tim (it was learning the Bat moves from Tim so I see no reason why it wouldn't delve further). This would indeed make it more of a programme than a personality. But when does the programme stop being a programme and become a person. This would have eventually occurred. By artificial means, the programme would be the building blocks for a Joker based on Tim's memories and basic information based in the programme. Once it had fully taken control, it would have been as sentient as anyone else. In a way it;s a similar argument that lurks over abortion. When do the gentic building blocks become a person?

While legally I'm not saying Joker would have rights over the body, I'm saying did Terry destroy the programme after it had created the full personality? It seemed to have full control mentally, it was the physical nature which seemed to keep them swapping?

Does this bring everything back to square one?

[Firefly]

Anybody know where I can Buy The uncut version of Return Of the Joker In a Retail Store Not on the internet.

[Bird Boy]

ummm..you could try heaven. cuz in heaven, you can buy whatever you want at whatever store you wish.

Face it, ROTJ Un-cut, is currently available, only in the ILLEGAL format. If WB doesn't hurry up, it's gonna stay that way too.

-BB

[James Harvey]

I oculdn't have said it better my self, Bird_Boy. There is no official uncut version - only the bootleg which is being offered by a poster here (how can you miss the post?). WB may possible release it, but it looks slim. We're all hoping ,though, since the new head of WBA is a big animation fan. If you still feel like complaining, email homevideo@warnerbros.com

[Calhoun07]

Does that email really go to somebody who cares, Dick? Because if it does, I want to say something about the Teletubbies coming to DVD while we STILL don't have the animated series on DVD!

[Bird Boy]

Yeah, spoiler warning...because (I think this might've been discussed on the old boards) but:

What version of Return of the Joker do you accept as TRUE Beyond history. The EDITED or UN-EDITED . For example. Did J.J (Tim):

A) Electricute Joker (EDITED)
or
B) Shoot Joker with the pistol (UN-EDITED)

I say B. What about you? Yeah, YOU, I'm talking about YOU!:D

-Bird_Boy

[freakboy86]

I agree. I say he shot him. Even after all of the torture Joker put him through Tim may have had an easier time of re-adjusting to life. But with the knowledge that he INTENTIONALLY killed someone he was pushed over the edge. I even feel that Barbara was lying to Terry (or was misinformed) when she said that Bruce forbade Tim to wear the Robin suit again because he '...didn't want to put him in danger.' I think Tim REFUSED to wear the suit again because of the memories it brought back, and also a possible guilt complex over the thought that he had 'defiled' the uniform by killing Joker.

[redDragon]

He shot him. To me the electrocution just seems...well fake.....Joker has escaped so many other death traps that electrocution seems so trival to them. Being shot is something that Joker didn't see coming, especially from J.J. The electrocution being an accident seems stupid. Oops I tripped and knocked myself into some water and got electrocuted isn't a satisfying death for the Joker. He's a villain he deserves to go out with a bang.

[Inque]

He shot it. JJ did something that Batman would never do.

[Fish]

Hmm who in here dares to say that they think that the "right" Joker death was JJ's electroction of him?
*clenshes fists, ready to fight any nonbelievers!*

I say: B) Shoot Joker with the pistol (UN-EDITED)

That's the only right death plus it looks so cool!
The other death was for me irritating because I wanted a more grafic picture of what happened. Not just ; Water + push + slipping + scream = dead.

<>< F I S H ><>

[The Mad Hatter]

No contest here. Not only does being shot cause Joker to be done in with one of his own gags, it also causes Tim an additional trauma to drive home the point of what Joker's cruelty will cause Tim to do.

I _might_ have been more accepting to electrocution if they kept in the shock paddles from "Our Family Memories."

[James]

HATTER:
I _might_ have been more accepting to electrocution if they kept in the shock paddles from "Our Family Memories."

Good point, if that had been left in then it would have given the electrocution a delicate sense of irony.

I like the fact that Tim kills the Joker in the end. The last person you'd imagine killing him and proof that in the end - just as in 'The Dark Knight Returns' - that Bats never could finish the job!

[Russkafin]

Everyone seems to prefer the shooting from the unedited version... but, no matter what we want to "accept," the fact remains that, officially, Joker died by accidental electrocution. That's what happened in the official version that was released to the public, and if they ever did a sequel to it, for example, that referred to Joker's death, it would refer to a villain who slipped in a puddle and accidentally electrocuted himself, not a villain who was shot by Batman's tortured sidekick. Whether we like it or not, that's what happened as far as continuity goes.

[Trent Lane]

Originally posted by Russkafin
Everyone seems to prefer the shooting from the unedited version... but, no matter what we want to "accept," the fact remains that, officially, Joker died by accidental electrocution. That's what happened in the official version that was released to the public, and if they ever did a sequel to it, for example, that referred to Joker's death, it would refer to a villain who slipped in a puddle and accidentally electrocuted himself, not a villain who was shot by Batman's tortured sidekick. Whether we like it or not, that's what happened as far as continuity goes.

"officially" according to WB and those who prefer that ending, not everybody, mind you. i'm sure even the creative team was royally pissed when they found out it was to be changed, and rightfully so. the whole editting thing is a joke to me, anyway. WB didn't want to spend the time and money getting it rated, so they had it cut up for a clean version that could be sold so they could make even more money. besides, if it had all the blood and shootings in it a parent of a younger child, ie the consumer, would have to decide whether their child should watch it or not. it's so simple, yet such a hard concept to grasp...

by the way, i'm for JJ shooting Joker :cool:

[James]

Originally posted by Russkafin
Everyone seems to prefer the shooting from the unedited version... but, no matter what we want to "accept," the fact remains that, officially, Joker died by accidental electrocution. That's what happened in the official version that was released to the public, and if they ever did a sequel to it, for example, that referred to Joker's death, it would refer to a villain who slipped in a puddle and accidentally electrocuted himself, not a villain who was shot by Batman's tortured sidekick. Whether we like it or not, that's what happened as far as continuity goes.

Continuity and what is considered 'canon' is really in the hands of the individual. It's up to you to decide what's canon and what isn't. What is usually endorsed as 'official' is normally what the studio/company consider profitable. eg; Something that they will get finacial comeback from........

It all depends on your point of view - as always....

The company that owns the product will say everything they produce is official. Yet the TV tie-ins novels are normally pretty bad, as are some of the comics - ahem - that certain tv shows spawn. This sort of official - the official that you are refering to, the company's official stance really doesn't, IMO, really have any artistic standpoint.

Every fan is different. Some fans will dismiss the tie-ins and say that only the show or title itself is official - anything else is just tripe. On the whole, I can sympathise with this view - especially when it comes to titles like Star Wars.... Yet when I look at Doctor Who, I consider the TV show and the Virgin tie-in books of the early nineties as official and yet I ignore the later BBC books. It suits my vision of continuity. For me, I decide my continuity, that's the fun of it.

However, if you are looking at what is TRUELY official, you must look to the creators - and if you asked the creators what they considered the definitive version of ROTJ, I think they'd pump for the un-edited one.

Not wanting to knock your point - I was hoping someone would stick up for the edited. I would have if I could have come up with a convincing argument...! :)

[The Mad Hatter]

Not that we'll have to ever worry about "canon" issues post ROTJ, since all parties are so sick of it I doubt we'll ever see anything that revisits it.

[Nightwing]

That's probably the final nail in the coffin, how everyone's sick of it. I think that's why someone up there should just fix everything quick and release the correct movie with the TRUE scenes. Ya know, a whole no muss no fuss thing. But those WB types don't even like Batman or any of his TV show children anymore, so here's to roaming the airwaves for 40 years. Well, until The Justice League picks us up again. :)

[BWDK]

Joker's look in the ROTJ flasback scene? I thinks it's the best! Too bad they didn't draw him like this earlier. The BTAS Mr. J looks a bit too cartoony and the TNBA Joker's look simply sux (alien eyes, mouth ect.)

[Shriek]

Yea I agree. I couldn't stand the way the Joker looked in BTAS and I Could live with his look in TNBA.

And btw.. love the avatar.

[James Harvey]

I think it was an ideal mix in the ROTJ flashback - how it should've been done. I think in the ROTJ commentary, Timm said it was his favorite version. I would've liked to have more of it!

[Shriek]

Geez DG what are you doing? Your responding to all my posts. Wait a minute. That's your job.

And might I ask how do you find out if users have multiple identities. Deerrr! Did I spell that right?!!? Identy's, Iden****. Ya im going with Identities.

[icecold]

Yeah, I think thats the best incarnation of the Joker too (personality-wise as well!).

[James Harvey]

I dig yer new icon icecold, but I had to delete your second double post.

[Trent Lane]

do you think the joker in the JL cartoon will look like the TNBA version or the ROTJ one? since timm liked it so much, i see him using the ROTJ version of the joker...

[BWDK]

I think he'll look like the TNBA the ROTJ one looks way to scary for a show that little will watch. I don't look forward the JLA show mainly because I don't like any other superheroes than Batman. All other superheroes are too unrealistic I I think they just suck :p yeah I'm also talking about Superman :p

[Mr. Obsession]

I think that Timm will either stick with the Joker's look from the RotJ flashback (since he did say it was his favorite to date) or rework it a little to work with the new look he's been developing for JL, which will be closer to BATS than TNBSA.

But I do agree that it's the best looking Joker design we've gotten yet, or to put it simply: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Russkafin]

I just got back from a family vacation... I brought along both versions of ROTJ to show to my siblings and cousins. The audience consisted of one male, age 19, who is a moderate Bat fan, one female, age 15, who is not really that interested in Batman, and one 12 year old male who thinks Batman is da bomb. The edited version was viewed first, followed by the uncut version, and it was unanimously agreed that the uncut version was much better, much darker, more tragic and thusly more meaningful.

At first, the group seemed to think the edits were pretty silly, and the whole two-version thing was kind of lame (keep in mind that most of the early edits are, "They cut a punch right here! They took out that kick right there!").... but once they saw the flashback scene uncut, everyone got the chills, and agreed the movie was much more powerful when The Joker died by Tim's choosing, and not an accident. Even our 15 year old female viewer's attention was kept throughout both versions!

The only question they had, which I was unable to answer, is the subject of this message.... why was Joker's line about "putzes" changed to "yutzes"? Is "putz" a vulgar word? If so, moderators, please forgive me for using it in this post! ;) Thanks, gang.

[Calhoun07]

Sometimes I call people "putz" and they seem to react negatively, as if I am calling them something vile. To me, tho, the word is synonymous with "slacker." To putz around means to waste time, and slacker and putz are interchangeable to me. If it means something more vile and vulger, the definition escapes me.

Then again, people sometimes react negatively if I use the word "suck" and tell me not to talk like that. I am like, "What's wrong with suck? That is what vacumm cleaners do, and a vacumm is nothing, no air, so saying something sucks is like saying it has no value." I guess I can see why people might be troubled by that word....if their mind is in the gutter. I really have no idea what they think suck means and why it is so vulgar. I ask, but they decline to tell me. I can only guess.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by Russkafin
Is "putz" a vulgar word? If so, moderators, please forgive me for using it in this post!

I believe it is of Yiddish origin, and has a very specific and vulgar meaning. I'm far from certain, but I think it may refer to a particular portion of the male anatomy. . .

[James Harvey]

Really? I never thought twice about saying 'Putz'. It was something I heard just about eveerywhere. Then what about 'yutz'? What does that mean?

[Bird Boy]

"yutz" may be yuppy people. I say "putz" all of the time...to me..it just means "fart head"..lol.

If it was really that vulgar, I don't think even the un-edited version of ROTJoker would've had it.

So, in my eyes.. WB is just a bunch of putzs.. :D


What about the "koot" to "fart"??? That's a stupid one too. I know "koot" is an old man. but since he says "The old bat koot", and since 'old' is used already..why use a word that means the same thing (basically)? I like "Bat fart" much better..it was funny..I took it down to my bro's work while we were down there on the weekends. It was the first time he saw it un-edited, and he laughed at that part..it was rather funny...heh. Guess ya had to be there..

Anyway, that's my take on this discussion.. :)

-BB

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by DickGrayson
Really? I never thought twice about saying 'Putz'.

Went and looked on dictionary.com. There it confirms "putz" as being of Yiddish origin. It means "fool" or "idiot," but is also a vulgar slang term for "penis." The same thing holds for "schmuck," too.

Strictly speaking, "dork" means the same thing. (Gary Larson tells of how an editor once changed "dork" to "idiot" in one of his cartoons for that reason.) But it seems to have lost most of that connotation recently. I guess "putz" (in some circles) still retains enough of the original vulgar meaning that WB wanted to change it (much as they would have wanted to change it if the Joker had called someone a "dick.")

ADDED: Can't find "yutz" anyplace. I'd bet it's something made up-- close to the original word but without a real meaning. Another dictionary I consulted, BTW, gives a different (and in this forum unprintable) meaning to "schmuck," beginning with an 'a' and using an 'h.' :eek:!

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by calhoun07
Then again, people sometimes react negatively if I use the word "suck" and tell me not to talk like that. I really have no idea what they think suck means and why it is so vulgar. I ask, but they decline to tell me. I can only guess.

Like "dork" I think it has lost a lot of its original force, but it did once refer to something we can't talk about on an all-ages board.

[DR. BELCH]

The god of thunder--is correct; putz is Yiddish for the John Thomas. Which makes me wonder if a "yutz" is its feminine counterpart Lady Jane.
Anyone ever read Lewis Grizzard's Don't Bend Over in the Garden, Granny--You know Them Taters Got Eyes? He devotes a whole section to fabricated words for certain portions of the male and female anatomy. My favorites are "gerka", "fuzbah", hobbledeegoo" (f.), "pogue" (someone at a message board I used to frequent uses that as his handle), and "fatza macher".
And now I will switch to George Carlin mode:
You know the American language is going to hell when "suck" and "blow"--two words with totally opposite meanings--refer to the same act.
You should hear his take on the lawn-care implement "The Snapper". :eek:

[Calhoun07]

I wonder how many words we consider vulgar today will lose the vulgarity as time goes on? I can't list any here, of course, so you just fill in the blanks and discuss it among yoursleves!

[joker]

most of these words were considerd on the same level as the f word around the 40's and 50's. if you were caught saying suck or blow you were in a mess of trouble. the same with butt. i dont see whats wrong with butt in the first place at any time periond. just short for buttocks. anyway. how did these words become less bad you ask? tv. yes tv. as these words were used more and more on the telivision they became more common and began to loose their meaing and devoleped new ones. just imigine what will not be bad 50 years from now.

[DR. BELCH]

You know, when I Love Lucy premiered in the late '50's, our little redheaded darling couldn't say "pregnant".
The Simpsons ep "Day of the Jackanapes" parodies those outdated regulations when Krusty utters a mouthful of profanity in Yiddish at some troublesome trousers...but he's banned from the air for about 20 years for saying "pants" while the cameras are running...:rolleyes:

[Calhoun07]

Putz, dick, screw, and dork all have root meanings in being slang words for a johnson. It occured to me that all of them can be used to describe a slacker, which I thought putz meant. Putzing around is another way of saying you're wasting time, as is dicking around, screwing around, or dorking off. No deep thoughts here, just thought it was interesting. I like thinking about the meanings of words and figuring out why we use certain words and phrases that make no sense.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by calhoun07
Putz, dick, screw, and dork all have root meanings in being slang words for a johnson. It occured to me that all of them can be used to describe a slacker, which I thought putz meant. Putzing around is another way of saying you're wasting time, as is dicking around, screwing around, or dorking off. No deep thoughts here, just thought it was interesting. I like thinking about the meanings of words and figuring out why we use certain words and phrases that make no sense.

Um, given the original root meaning of these terms, it's not hard to imagine what "putzing around" (for instance) would mean, and why that would be a fitting (though vulgar) expression for "goofing off."

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by joker
most of these words were considerd on the same level as the f word around the 40's and 50's. if you were caught saying suck or blow you were in a mess of trouble. the same with butt. i dont see whats wrong with butt in the first place at any time periond. just short for buttocks. anyway. how did these words become less bad you ask? tv. yes tv. as these words were used more and more on the telivision they became more common and began to loose their meaing and devoleped new ones. just imigine what will not be bad 50 years from now.

But it runs the other direction, too. There was a time when racial epithets were about on a par with the contemporary usage of a word like 'a-h-': They were offensive and not for use in polite company, but no one made a big deal when they showed up. Now the infamous "n" word is surely even worse than the "f" word. (Can you imagine a major Hollywood movie sprinking "n" around as much as "f" is often sprinkled?) We seem to be in the middle of a shift, with the scatological and sexual words losing much of their charge, and the racial words (and, to a lesser extent, those associated with gender and sexual orientation) picking it up.

[Jokerfish]

I just recently got my hands on a ROTJ uncut VCD. Let me say, in the three days I've had it, I've watched it three times :) Its one hell of a movie. The cut version is crap compared to the true version. I just hope an uncut version is released on dvd, because my vcd isnt the best quality. The story is awesome, voice acting is awesome, animation is great (although I prefer TAS style more than BB style) and most of all....the Joker is absolutely amazing. Hes so dark, creepy, and his laugh is perfect. Luke Skywalker does it again ;p I love how Dee Dee is/are the grandaughter(s) of Harley, that's great writing. Overall, ROTJ is one of my favorite movies, my only gripe is that Barbs shouldn't have been voice by Angie Harmon because I'm a big Law and Order fan and it was just too weird having her do the voice, it was like having Regis Philbin doing Bruce Wayne...I know the voice too well. I was almost hoping it WAS the real Joker...I don't know, I always liked Mr. J and it kind of sucks that he died so young. Oh well.

[James]

Totally agree mate.

The only point I differ on is on how the uncut and cut versions compare. While I prefer the uncut version, I still think the cut version is excellent and deserves a pat (bat?) on the back.

Yeah, the uncut is darker, but the cut version doesn't pull too many punches either and certainly does nothing disrespectful to the title.

The cut version was what I saw first and it blew me away. I was kind of upset when I found there was a better version as it meant I know how to stories to deliberate over.

Please all, just because we were fortunate to get to see the uncut version, give the cut version it's credit. If we never had seen the unofficial film no one would be critizing the official one.

It's good, man - I love both!

[Tim Drake]

I don't agree. If we had only had one version people would have criticized BB ROTJ. It was far too obvious that the cut version was cut. Editing was poor and often the musical score didn't seem to sync with the movie. It also was not as dark and edgy. The edited version of the movie was more tame than some of the episodes. Example: In eyewitness, Bruce Wayne asks terry If he really believed he could get away with killing Mad Stan. But in the edited ROTJ they changed kill to ice. Some of the greatest lines were altered. ROTJ unedited compares to Mask of the Phantasm. In its edited form it compares with Subzero. There's a big difference in my opinion.

[James]

I don't agree. If we had only had one version people would have criticized BB ROTJ. It was far too obvious that the cut version was cut. Editing was poor and often the musical score didn't seem to sync with the movie. It also was not as dark and edgy.

I disagree. I think that the reason we are aware of these harsh edits is because we know they were there.

If there had been no mention of a self contained unedited version, there would have been no outcry to the official version. I had the fortune to watch ROTJ before knowing about the unedited version and I thought it was a fantastic movie and didn't notice any bad score edits. If I went and checked now, knowing the score intimately and knowing there are huge edits they'd probably stick out like a sore thumb.

You have to remember EVERY episode of a title such as this will probably go through some serious editing - especially on a programme which treads a tight line between being an adult cartoon and a kids one.

In eyewitness, Bruce Wayne asks terry If he really believed he could get away with killing Mad Stan. But in the edited ROTJ they changed kill to ice. Some of the greatest lines were altered.

I don't mean to start picking at your argument, but I don't think this really would be noticed unless you know it had been changed.

In its edited form it compares with Subzero. There's a big difference in my opinion.

I agree that knowing the difference, that ROTJ edited feels very neutered. Perhaps it does make it feel like SubZero to Mask Of The Phantasm, but my point is, if you didn't have 'Mask..' then SubZero wouldn't seem so bad! :)

We are blessed - and cursed - by the knowledge of the unedited ROTJ!

[Bird Boy]

as a person who saw the EDITED first, I loved the edited. I think I always will. I just like un-edited better.

When I watched the movie, I was sucked up in the story, not if the music was cut, or the editing was horrible (for the time allowed [a mere 2 months], I don't think they could've done better). I just sat there, and enjoyed the movie.

I don't think we can really say which version is "better" (while 90% may say the un-edited, 10% may say edited), they both have their perks, and whether we get un-edited officially doesn't matter. We have the bootleg copies, and if WB really cared about it making it's way from user to user, I'm sure they'd crack down.

That's what I think anyway..

So in other words..I agree with both of you guys..

-BB

[James]

Just to make it clear - I do prefer the unedited to the edited - but the edited version did 'blow me away' too. After watching it, I jumped onto the net and was fustrated to find out there was a better one!

I think the official one is brilliant, the unofficial is better, but I think if we'd never heard anything about a edited version we'd all be very happy with what was served up. I prefer it to Mask Of The Phantasm - but that's just me. Perhaps because we are in such unexplored territory in ROTJ - I didn't know what the hell was going to happen! Riveting - but then we all knew that didn't we? :)

[Calhoun07]

It seems dirty words get cleaned up for more common use, such as blow and suck and putz all have more clean meanings now, tho their root meanings may be more vulgar, they can be used in conversation without much fear. On the other hand, words once clean and innocent have taken on dirty meanings. I don't know if I should type them all, but please bear in mind I am using them in the original context, and no offense is intended!

Just to be on the safe side, let's do it like this...
*** used to mean a bundle of sticks used for starting fires.

gay used to mean happy. In fact, I can remember a time when I knew people who had this for their first name, but many have changed it. Kinda sad.

beaver used to mean an animal.

shag used to refer to carpet.

can anybody else think of anymore?

[Nightwing]

I don't think verbal generations of the past enter into the ROTJ thing. The people at WB are just completley brain dead, and the only thing in mind having anything to do with what "social" effect it will have on the viewing public is if they'll get sued for it or not. Very frustrating to those of us with brains in our heads.....and those with brains in their heads that don't have dollar signs swimming around them.

And then there's a half a century ago where you couldn't say "pregnant" on TV, as well as many other examples we consider pretty odd today. Come to think of it, I'm not sure which was worse. 50 years ago when vulgarity was twice the evil it is today, or now with the whole I'll sue you thing.

[Calhoun07]

Sad to say that there are closed minded people in every generation who can't see past their own noses.

[Nightwing]

Jokerfish has got my opinion all writen down word for word, except for the Law and Order thing, cuz I don't watch that show. ALTHOUGH I do prefer Stockard Channing as my Commisioner Barbara voice absolutely. The other girl might have rough voice, but she sounds like she's 20. I find myself not always liking it.

Ya know Stockard Channing auditioned for the part of Lois Lane in the first Superman movie? She's got Batman/Superman in the blood!!! :D

[optimal321]

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus


But it runs the other direction, too. There was a time when racial epithets were about on a par with the contemporary usage of a word like 'a-h-': They were offensive and not for use in polite company, but no one made a big deal when they showed up. Now the infamous "n" word is surely even worse than the "f" word. (Can you imagine a major Hollywood movie sprinking "n" around as much as "f" is often sprinkled?) We seem to be in the middle of a shift, with the scatological and sexual words losing much of their charge, and the racial words (and, to a lesser extent, those associated with gender and sexual orientation) picking it up.

Here's a perfect example:

Some guy was giving a public speech and used the word "niggardly." Now, despite what it obviously sounds like, the word is not a racial slur. It means "stingy" or "cheap." Anyway, the idiot public made a big fuss about it and the guy got fired, or had some dire consequence, resulting in a public appology. Shows how much people are putzes.

[Calhoun07]

Niggard is clearly a different word, even in spelling, let alone definition. I hope this guy sued them for being fired, and I hope he won.

[Shriek]

Yutz seems like someting the Three Stooges would say. Or someting you would call a dog.

[DR. BELCH]

The first word Cal uses is still used today in Britan to refer to cheap cigarettes. Spelled with one g, it's a bundle of sticks; with two gs, it's Michael Jackson. A little rule I go by.... ;D

I recall the "niggard" controversy, and here's another one: I once was told, as a columnist for the campus newspaper, that a turn of phrase I used,"takes the rag off the bush" (meaning that something really goes too far in overstepping boundaries, and I read it in a Born Loser comic), could be construed as vulgar. WTF? Was the faculty advisor thinking not of an innocent shrub and a piece of cloth, but that I was promoting rape or the carnal assault of women by using this epithet for a woman's private parts? Little wonder I got out of journalism. I still miss it sometimes, but if that's the kind of idiocy I'd have to deal with, maybe I'm better off without it!

[Calhoun07]

"takes the rag off the bush" reminds me that there are ALOT of Biblical references that can be used for more off color or even vulgar uses. "Burning bush," from the story of Moses, is one such one.

[TheScarecrow]

Watched ROTJ earlier and while BB never did much for me as a Batfan, I still liked this movie. It helped that Mark Hamill stole the show with his performance. Like Conroy for Batman, Hamill's voice is PERFECT for the Joker. And that flashback scene, heavy edited or not, still rocked!

[optimal321]

Yup. I've never seen the unedited, but as much as i'll complain about the butchering, the edited movie still was awesome!

[batE]

Yeah, ROTJ was fantabulous. I have the edited version, and I still got chills. Hamill was, as usual, brilliant in his performance (though I loved him slightly more in Mask of the Phantasm), but Will Friedle, too, also did his thing. I think he has a real future in voice acting. He's very talented.

batE

[Naraht]

4 clips from the movie can be found here (http://wba.toonzone.net/videos.html)
You'll have to dig for them though...the links have changes since the page was made...

*Hint* the host doesn't block directory viewing =]

[Joker Jr]

I just tried to watch the clips but they wouldn't play, the display just said error. Why can't I play the clips and what can I do about it? :(

[Naraht]

the internal links on those pages are wrong..you'll have to hunt....

read the hint, the hint is gude!

[RAMPAGE]

naraht, i give up. I want those uneditted links too. How do you get it?

[RAMPAGE]

I've been hunting as you said, wasting precious internet time. Please naraht, if you know how to get to those links don't hold out on us.

[Naraht]

*Sigh*
http://4colorreview.com/multimedia/movies/

[RAMPAGE]

Thank you naraht. I waited a long time to see Bonk shot and not just gassed. Too bad it didn't include the "are you in" scene. Thanks again.

[Joker Jr]

I tried to play the clips but my computer just told me that there is no compressor. What does this mean? :confused:

[Naraht]

that you need a newer version of quicktime =]

[Joker Jr]

How do I get a newer version of quicktime, or where.

[Naraht]

try http://www.apple.com

[CerebralSocko]

I love this movie. Joker has always been my favorite villain PERIOD, and to see him in the futuristic world of Batman Beyond is simply ... joy. I've always wondered how the producers would handle the transition of old Batman villains into the new series, and they did it perfectly in this movie. Joy.

One thing that did bother me was that they didn't include the Joker Gang from the TV series into the movie. How come? I would've loved to see the REAL Joker show a thing or two to those .. ahem ... amatures.

Oh yah, and the scene where Joker highlights a happy face on the Gotham map was the single most hilarious scene in the movie. ROFL.

-Socko

[Joker Jr]

Thanks alot Naraht. Those clips are really cool! I can't really see why they cut them out of the movie though. :)

[Bobby Boy 101]

"too violent"

:rolleyes:

[The Mad Hatter]

The WB execs decided to be jerks. Notice that nearly all of what got cut out would have been fine on KWB a few years ago...

[TerryMcGuiness]

I actually find the edited version alot better. Bonk spasaming on the table from the Joker gas is alot more creepy than him just being shot.

Also, I thought everything that needed to be put across in the other scenes made it just fine despite the edits.

and I thought the Jokers death scene wasmuch better. Call me over sentimental or not extreeeme enough, but I **liked** that Tim got to fight back against the Jokers influence at the last.

and the way his electrocution was pulled was was 50 times less anti-climatic and plain boring than "bang."

I mean that scream. It sounds like this creepy mix of a death shrill and him starting to do a loud version of his usual laugh and then ...silence. *shutter*

When all is said and done nothing was really compromised that much. Seriously.

Yeah the WB were being buttheads but they let them keep basically the same principle behind those scene only find a different approach.

and like back in the days of the original TAS, even while being under the gun Timm and Co. managed to turn out something great that in many ways is actually a bit better for having to opt for finess over bluntness.

In my view, ROTJ lost nothing in editing room. The story still has all the power and all the drama and then some. The situation is still as tragic and creepy as it was before and the power of the key moments still hits like a fist.

I also still really loved the end. Its one of the things that seperates Batman Beyond from all the other Batman in dark future stories. It had the balls to have a triumphant and happy ending.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by TerryMcGuiness

and I thought the Jokers death scene wasmuch better. Call me over sentimental or not extreeeme enough, but I **liked** that Tim got to fight back against the Jokers influence at the last.



Ahhh, but he also fought back in the unedited version as well. Its just that the way it occurred was much more tragic and chilling. We've had this discussion in other threads in the past. The move looses a lot with the change from Joker being murdered to Joker being accidentally electrocuted - it completely changes the effects it would have had on the Bat-team. I'll try and dig through the old posts and see if I can find some of my previous comments on this.

[Joker Jr]

Does anybody know where I can download the whole uncut movie? I know there used to be but I can't remember where.

[Naraht]

Originally posted by TerryMcGuiness
I actually find the edited version alot better. Bonk spasaming on the table from the Joker gas is alot more creepy than him just being shot.

and I thought the Jokers death scene wasmuch better. Call me over sentimental or not extreeeme enough, but I **liked** that Tim got to fight back against the Jokers influence at the last.

and the way his electrocution was pulled was was 50 times less anti-climatic and plain boring than "bang."


I think the biggest thing here is...you loose a hint. It's been a while since I've watched the movie..but I thik the flashback happened BEFORE they figured out it was Tim. Using the killer bang flag twice, lets you have another clue, that it really is Tim.

Also...double negatives are really confusing...I think you were trying to say that had he just been shot, it would have been boring and anti-clamatic.....took me a while to get that..

Sorry, there's my grammer flame of the month...>=]

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by Clayface
We've had this discussion in other threads in the past. The move looses a lot with the change from Joker being murdered to Joker being accidentally electrocuted - it completely changes the effects it would have had on the Bat-team. I'll try and dig through the old posts and see if I can find some of my previous comments on this.

Yeah, this debate's an evergreen around here. :)

When it returns, I've pretty much taken to just linking to the essay (http://www.scrye.com/~jallman/anbat/essays/killing.html) on my site. Saves time. ;)

[Clayface]

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus

When it returns, I've pretty much taken to just linking to the essay (http://www.scrye.com/~jallman/anbat/essays/killing.html) on my site. Saves time. ;)

Thanks for the link Maxie. I couldn't find my old posts anyway, and your essay sums up my feelings on the whole thing much more elloquently than I ever could (as usual!). For those that claim the changes in the death scene are unimportant or don't really change anything, go read Maxie's essay.

[James Harvey]

Big news, folks! Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker: The Original, Uncut Version! 'Nuff said! Check out the newspost, folks:

http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15228

We're getting the original ROTJ on April 23rd, as well as a slew of other animated discs as well. That day is gonna be a great day to pick up those DVDs! So...comments on the release date for the original ROTJ?

[Karkull]

Finally I'll be able to see it. I never watched the "cut" version, so I'm going in fresh.

[The Mad Hatter]

You'll be in for a great treat, then!

Looks like WB has actually put a bit of tasty meat to that bone they're throwing us...

[Batmex]

FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm gona have that disc, any new extras in this version?

[Calhoun07]

Gee, looks like I will be paying for that movie twice, cuz I bought the cut version already!

[Failure]

Sweetness! Looks like there's going to be a slew of dvds that are suddenly on my want list. Suddenly, getting that DVD player looks like it becomes a higher priority.

[Bird Boy]

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh yeah!!!!! I'm so frickin' excited!! April 23rd..lets see..5 DVD's... $20 a-piece...$100?!?!?!!!ah well, it's worth it!!

I'm stoked..I can't wait....

-BB

[James Harvey]

Originally posted by Batmex
FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm gona have that disc, any new extras in this version?

The original commentary that was recorded for the movie, not the one on the edited disc. As far as I know...that may be it besides some trailers and maybe a short featurette or two. It's possible we may get more. I'll keep ya up to date on this.

[Heehaw]

Alot of us look down on the cut version, but people should realize that it contains exclusive animation. I'm a completist, so I would require both, plus the cut version has a host of nifty extras and I guess and exclusive commentary(assuming the uncut version is a different one). The different animation, at least for me, is a legitimate reason to own the current release.

I already have a non-bootleg VHS of the uncut version, so it isn't that big of a deal, for me, but it will definitely be worth it for quality concerns. You can't beat that 5.1 and super vivid color.

[Salvor]

This is so great! And only a couple of weeks before my birthday :)

[James Harvey]

What I'm intereste din most is the pre-break up DVD commentary between Timm, Dini, Murakami, and Geda. I'm interested to compare that commentary to the rathar restrained commentary on the edited disc.

[James]

As long as it has the same features as the original DVD which i didn't buy (I have ROTJ on video) I don't want to have to get both just for the sake of a commentary or some other extra!

Yay! ROTJ uncut..! Maybe widescreen!

[Sugar Daddy]

I'm so glad i heard about the uncut version coming out, as i almost bought the current 1. I'm waiting for the uncut 1, as well as comign up with plans to find the money for all 5 dvds

[James Harvey]

You know, once the unedited comes out - I bet the edited version will see a huge drop in price and you should be able to pick it up for cheap, if you want.

[Sugar Daddy]

Originally posted by Dick Grayson
You know, once the unedited comes out - I bet the edited version will see a huge drop in price and you should be able to pick it up for cheap, if you want.

would it be worth it, even then?

[James]

Originally posted by Dick Grayson
You know, once the unedited comes out - I bet the edited version will see a huge drop in price and you should be able to pick it up for cheap, if you want.

If it's cheap, it'll be worth it if the extras on the new DVD aren't duplicated (it is hearsay at the moment - and I recall the Wrath Of Khan was meant to have had an abundence of features which ended up with having zero...).

However, importing the region 1 original to the UK won't come cheap... still, the extras on the original did appeal.. and if the uncut is relatively featureless I could be tempted...

Again, if I can get it cheap...

[nightwing_38116]

So, they've put a date out for the release of ROTJ uncut...sigh...I'm taking a vacation on April 24th. DG, you may know why.

[James Harvey]

I get ya! And it's a well deserved vacation, too. After all you've done for the fans, this will be a healthy break for ya. :)

[Calhoun07]

They need to do more than drop the price on the edited version. It needs to go out of print. There is no reason to have it around anymore. The Gore administration that made the cuts necessary isn't around any more. (sorry for the political comment, but you know it's true)

[Heehaw]

and I recall the Wrath Of Khan was meant to have had an abundence of features which ended up with having zero...).

Off topic, but just wanted to mention to whoever said the above quote, that a special edition of Khan hits stores in June, I believe. It'll have all the goodies, and special editions of the rest of the series will follow.

[James Harvey]

Originally posted by lasportsbiggie


would it be worth it, even then?

Yeah. I still enjoy the edited version and as previously reported the edited version will have somne excusive animation if you're a completist. If you want all the BB animation you can find, then the edited BB:ROTJ has some not in the unedited and vice versa. I'll be keeping my edited copy. I should know soon about the specs.

[Calhoun07]

I will keep my edited copy, too, but I don't think I would buy it now if I never had it before knowing the unedited version was coming out.

[Bobby Boy 101]

I would buy both, even if by April I had neither yet.

I do have edited on Vid and DVD (what can I say, Im obsessive compulsive completist), but I would gladly buy the edited again if I didnt have it already, even w/ the original cut will be comin out.

by the way...whats the original cut gonna be named? like 'director's cut' or somethin?

never mind, Ill just go check the news page (its listed there, isnt it?>)

[Nightwing]

Didn't we already decide on this as Batfans? :) Most of us said we wanted BOTH DVDs. I know times can change a person's mind but Lord knows I'm still one of em!! I'm REALLY looking foward to the large treasure chest of happiness known as April 23rd.

[James Harvey]

The BB: ROTJ DVD will be titled simply Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker - The Original Cut. It can't be dubbed the director's cut becuase...it isn't. Curt Geda is the director of the movie and this isn't his cut, but the original cut before WB sliced it up. Come to think of it, I think Geda's involvement in the Original Cut DVD in very minimal. I think he's apart of the commentary and that may be it.

[Blight]

Alright! It's FINALLY being released, and it's about time! I have to say, I wasn't really that excited about this...............until the family got a DVD player for Xmas!!! Now I can actually get it! :D

See ya!
Blight

[James Harvey]

You'll be glad you got that DVD when you put this puppy in. The edited ROTJ DVD has great graphics and amazing sound. I'm sure this one will follow sound and then beat it!

[kid_flash]

April 23rd! That rules, that's just 3 days before my birthday! Oh, great, now I'm gonna have to decide between every Batman DVD and a PS2...

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to this, even moreso than the others. Whenever I watch ROTJ, I always watch the edited DVD. Why? Because it looks SOOOO much better. The quality both in picture and sound is amazing, can't wait to get the better story!

[James Harvey]

The edited version looks amazing. The sound and picture is just spellbinding. The Batman/Batgirl scene ontop of the roof, in the rain, sounds great on the stereo system. Having the original version is gonna be great.

[Calhoun07]

Well, all those scenes will be on the uncut version, too, plus more, so I guess if you're gonna buy both, you would have to be a completeist. And if only a few special features are different, I don't see why it would be worth while to get the edited DVD, unless you feel it's worth it to you.

[Heehaw]

The DVD has a Dolby 5.1 track which just rocks. Ten thousand times better than what you hear on a VHS. Of course, if you don't have a receiver capable of decoding 5.1, you will simply get 2.0/Pro Logic/VHS quality. Ewww...

[James Harvey]

The sound will be spectatcular. I can't wait to hear the flashback in DVD. There's just so much subtle sound you miss with a bootleg VHS.

[adoptedBatpuppy]

I didn't like RTOJ one bit, and I can tell you why. Firstible WB released a cut version of it. What was stopping them in the first place? Then Why did joker go for Timmy? He didn't go through all of the trouble in the first place. I don't believe he wanted a son. He just wanted to hurt Batman. Harley on the other hand married somebody else. I can't bilieve Deeds are her granddaughters, they don't look like her at all. Animation wasn't as good as I acspected could have been better. How did Joker/gang know that Terry was Batman anyways? The only part that was okay was the ending. I wished WB could have put Max on the show too. One more screen with Terry and Dana Was really needed.



Guys, Let me know what you think okay?

[TheScarecrow]

Funny, I thought it was one of the best things to ever come out of the whole Batman Beyond deal. And given how the Max character held back the quality of the show, I would've hated to see her in ROTJ, unless Mr. J offed her like he did to Jason Todd in the comics. :D

And I am thinking that Barbra told Tim about Terry being Batman, and because Joker was for all intents and purposes, living inside Tim's brain, that is how he found out about him being the new Batman.

And I think you answered your own question about why Joker went after Tim. All he really wanted to do was hurt Batman, and lure him into a trap so he could have Tim kill him.

[Bird Boy]

putting Max in there probably would've ruined it..what part would she have played?

I loved the movie myself. The only reason Joker took Tim was..you guessed it, to tick Batman off in such a way he'd make him kill. Plus, he's the Joker...he's INSANE.. :)

And, we don't know what Harley looked like when she was 16-17, so they could look like her. Plus, this is the future..all those outlaw kids do funky stuff w/ their bodies (splicing being one of them)..

Just wait for the UN-EDITED version, coming out April 23rd on DVD.

Oh yeah, and the reason behind the editing? It was "too violent" and since it was a "childrens movie" it had to be cut....

-BB

[DarkAngel]

Originally posted by Rimma Likover
I didn't like RTOJ one bit, and I can tell you why. Firstible WB released a cut version of it. What was stopping them in the first place? Then Why did joker go for Timmy? He didn't go through all of the trouble in the first place. I don't believe he wanted a son. He just wanted to hurt Batman. Harley on the other hand married somebody else. I can't bilieve Deeds are her granddaughters, they don't look like her at all. Animation wasn't as good as I acspected could have been better. How did Joker/gang know that Terry was Batman anyways? The only part that was okay was the ending. I wished WB could have put Max on the show too. One more screen with Terry and Dana Was really needed.


There uncut version will be released on DVD, so that's not a problem.

Joker went for Tim for the reason that have already been mentioned.

The twins were actually very much like Harley in size and moves. There's really no problem there.

Joker knew Bruce's identity, so it wouldn't have been difficult to realize that the new Batman was Terry. Joker's definitely a sharp one.

And the animation was truly excellent, from the fluid, flowing fight scenes to the designs themselves. There were a lot of standout visual moments. And the story was incredible. The flashback was shocking, bringing out the reason Joker is undoubtedly Batman's greatest enemy, while the movie itself had us in suspense over how Joker was young and well and what exactly was going on. And of course, I have to praise Hammill for his brilliance in voicing Joker.

[Aximlli]

I loved ROTJ, the only complaint I have is that the end seemed predictable. Not the part where Terry has his little talk with the Joker, but the part where he destroys the little chip behind his head. I dunno... that part was very predictable for me, especially since the same thing has been used many numbers of times before in other cartoons as well. It just seemed that the writers were taking the easy way out on that part.

But other than that, I still found the movie very enjoyable, and I'll definitely be getting the uncut DVD when it comes out :)... that is... if I can find it. There's still the issue of the same cover as the edited, but I guess that a different topic ;)

[optimal321]

Well, personally, i think that ROTJ was one of the best movies i've ever seen. Just to add a few more points:

Harley didn't necessarilly marry anyone besides her Puddin'. Maybe after he died, she had some fling w/ the Scarecrow or someone, which left her w/ a child. And then perhaps, she decided it was the right thing to do to raise him or her in the best way she could. Also, given that there were two generations between the Deedees and Harley, i think they looked a lot like her.

Also, i think TMS did a wonderful job animating the movie. That was one thing i really missed in the show.

But that's just imo.

[dc_gothamite]

the stuff about da uncut version... well u know...

the stuff about joker not really wanting a son, and just wanting to hurt batman.... go to the flashback sequence part, and turn on the director's comment.

the deedees being harley's granddaughters... it wuz probably put in for some classic harley humor... gotta keep the family tradition alive somehow...

animation wuz pretty good IMO... TMS did a wonderful job....

max wouldn't have really fit into the movie that well... on the show, she's more upbeat and colorful... that's not the kind of thing needed for such a dark-toned movie

joker knew about bruce being batman from the flashback sequence. so like talia in "Out of the Past", joker may have deduced that someone close to him had to be Batman...

and the jokerz gang never knew Terry wuz Batman. they were just followin orders to kill him... it wuz blind loyalty... but we can't blame u since ur talking about the cut version. the cut version took out the line where Chucko said,"I don't know why the boss wants a dreg like you dead." or something like that

[Cassandra]

Yeah, seeing the uncut version wipes away almost all of the confusion about this movie.

The only thing that nags me is the candy factory. Assuming that he saw the words Jolly Jack on the side of Jokers' hover car in the beginning o the movie where he crashes wayne/powers' party, WHY in the devils name did he WAIT so long to go there?! :mad:

[kid_flash]

Originally posted by TheScarecrow

And I am thinking that Barbra told Tim about Terry being Batman, and because Joker was for all intents and purposes, living inside Tim's brain, that is how he found out about him being the new Batman.


Tim figured it out:

Barbara: Tim, this is Terry McGuiness.
Tim: Hi.
Terry: We met last night.
Tim: We did--? Oh, right. I owe you big time.

Yada yada yada, scene continues.

ROTJ uncut was one of the greatest animated movies I have ever had the honor of viewing in my life. I cannot wait for the DVD, because the uncut video had crappy picture quality (well, not crappy, but I like the flashiness of the DVD).

[dc_gothamite]

Originally posted by Cassandra
Yeah, seeing the uncut version wipes away almost all of the confusion about this movie.

The only thing that nags me is the candy factory. Assuming that he saw the words Jolly Jack on the side of Jokers' hover car in the beginning o the movie where he crashes wayne/powers' party, WHY in the devils name did he WAIT so long to go there?! :mad:

i wuz thinking the same thing when i watched it the first time

[James Harvey]

I always wondered about that. Turne dout to be a genuine mistake in the animation as it was left out of the scene where Joker was talking to Batman on the vid phone in that laboratory scene. It's in the comic, though, I think.

[Adam Tyner]

My biggest complaint about ROTJ would be:

the revelation that "the Joker"'s behavior stems from a chip with DNA encoded on it? What a cop-out. When I first watched it, I assumed that was one of the forced changes made. The dialogue and its delivery strike me as really stilted.

[KingKoopa]

My biggest problem with it was the chip part itself. I think it should have been some permanent side effect to what the Joker did, and he'd end up like Two-Face with the Joker taking dominance and becoming a main villian in any future BB episodes. Other than that, the movie was great.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by Adam Tyner
My biggest complaint about ROTJ would be:

the revelation that "the Joker"'s behavior stems from a chip with DNA encoded on it? What a cop-out. When I first watched it, I assumed that was one of the forced changes made. The dialogue and its delivery strike me as really stilted.

I thought it was a rather interesting twist on the old Dr Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde storyline. What did you expect it to be?

[Adam Tyner]

I thought it was a rather interesting twist on the old Dr Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde storyline. What did you expect it to be?Basically, what King Koopa suggested in the post between ours, though not necessarily with the permanence. I have no problem with the Jekyll/Hyde aspect in and of itself, but the execution struck me as sloppy. Then again, I've said the same on a couple other forums, and no one agrees with me... :)

[Clayface]

The title of this thread has a spoiler warning in it already, so I'm going to dispense with the black boxes. But, just in case:

SPOILER WARNING






Originally posted by KingKoopa
My biggest problem with it was the chip part itself. I think it should have been some permanent side effect to what the Joker did, and he'd end up like Two-Face with the Joker taking dominance and becoming a main villian in any future BB episodes.


Well, if they had gone that route, they would have been getting flack from the fans saying it was just ripping off the Two-Face idea.

But, in a way, I think they did show you that anyway. The chip was starting to have a permanent affect. At first, the transformations were shorter and the Joker personality could only take hold for a short time. But the longer the chip was in place and active, the more control the Joker personality had. Had things continued uninterrupted, the Joker personality would have become permanent.

[Clayface]

Originally posted by Adam Tyner
I have no problem with the Jekyll/Hyde aspect in and of itself, but the execution struck me as sloppy.

How so?

[Adam Tyner]

The chip is the sort of "deus ex machina" plot device that I find grating. It seemed to me that the film was going to take a more psychological route, but then it suddenly veers off 180 degrees to that insufferably corny chip. It just struck me as an 11th hour sort of decision, as if the creators had written themselves into a corner and couldn't conceive of a better way to wrap up the remaining threads of the plot. I guess it seems silly to say this considering the rest of Batman's rogues gallery, but that the Joker could...decades in the past...create a tiny chip that contained his entire personality, usurp someone's mind, physically alter someone's entire physical structure on a dime, even change hair and skin color (and the Joker's peculiar look isn't genetic)...utterly ridiculous. The Joker's exposition about the chip wasn't convincing either, and as I said, the delivery of those awkwardly-written lines just seemed really stilted to me.

Don't take my criticism personally, though. You're more than welcome to disagree.

[Calhoun07]

Why are we still using spoilers for a movie that's been out for about 18 months already? :confused:

[James Harvey]

I wasn't a big fan of the chip idea, either. I can understand how it'd be hard to bring the Joke rinto the 21st century without making him really old. And...well...he was killed, so this does seem like the only way. I always thought the idea was a bit too smart for Joker. I know he's a genius and stuff, but what he was doing with that chip and stuff is no doubt revolutionary in terms of robotics. He probably had help...I hope!

[Clayface]

MORE SPOILER WARNINGS


Originally posted by Adam Tyner
The chip is the sort of "deus ex machina" plot device that I find grating. It seemed to me that the film was going to take a more psychological route, but then it suddenly veers off 180 degrees to that insufferably corny chip. It just struck me as an 11th hour sort of decision, as if the creators had written themselves into a corner and couldn't conceive of a better way to wrap up the remaining threads of the plot.



Personally, I thought it fit rather well in this case - I mean, it is a sci-fi/futuristic show, and it made a lot of sense that the answer would lay in technology. I was so fearful that they were either going to use the tired old time-machine bit, or some sort of of mysticism and magic to bring the Joker back, that I was pleasantly surprised when they used something so much more down to earth and "possible".



I guess it seems silly to say this considering the rest of Batman's rogues gallery, but that the Joker could...decades in the past...create a tiny chip that contained his entire personality, usurp someone's mind, physically alter someone's entire physical structure on a dime, even change hair and skin color (and the Joker's peculiar look isn't genetic)...utterly ridiculous.



I do agree that it seems a bit far-fetched that the Joker could do all that by himself. I don't however, think it was out of the realm of possibility - look at all the shape-changing and mind-altering technology that was used in the original series, BTAS. The werewolf, Man-Bat, Riddler's cyber-world, Mad-Hatter's mind controllers, etc. The technology was there.

And don't get started on the great debate about Joker's skin color - we've had this conversation before on the board. Oy.
:rolleyes:

Actually, there are some good arguments that it could be and is genetic in nature.

[Adam Tyner]

Personally, I thought it fit rather well in this case - I mean, it is a sci-fi/futuristic show, and it made a lot of sense that the answer would lay in technology. I was so fearful that they were either going to use the tired old time-machine bit, or some sort of of mysticism and magic to bring the Joker back, that I was pleasantly surprised when they used something so much more down to earth and "possible".I'm not saying that I was disappointed that they resorted to technology. The idea's sound, but encapsulating everything in what is for all intents and purposes a magic chip rubs me the wrong way.

The technology was there.Nothing quite on that scale, though.

And don't get started on the great debate about Joker's skin color - we've had this conversation before on the board. Oy.Well, I'm new here. :)

[Clayface]

Originally posted by Adam Tyner
I'm not saying that I was disappointed that they resorted to technology. The idea's sound, but encapsulating everything in what is for all intents and purposes a magic chip rubs me the wrong way.



Well, there's nothing really magic about it. True, they could have gone into more explanation about how the chip itself worked, but I think that would have thrown off the pacing of the movie immensely.



Nothing quite on that scale, though.



Sure there was! You only need two things: 1) something to physically alter the person's appearance and 2) something to alter their mind.

Well, (1) certainly existed. The Man-Bat episodes proved that. So did the Moon of the Wolf episode. So did the Clayface origin episode. So did the one (can't remember the name!) where
Catwoman was turned into a real Catwoman. Or how about when Poison Ivy turned people into trees? There's example after example of this sort of thing in the original show.

And (2) certainly existed as well. Riddler's cyber-world technology and Mad Hatter's mind control chips and dream-inducing machine could both do this. Riddler's technology was bulky, but Hatter's chips were nice and small.

Where's the stretch in saying that someone came up with an improvement on these technologies that allowed them to be on one chip? It's not very far-fetched at all - I mean, look at computer boards today compared to how they were 10 years ago - there's been a huge leap in miniaturization. I don't see why that wouldn't continue (other than the physical size limitations on technology).

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by Clayface


Sure there was! You only need two things: 1) something to physically alter the person's appearance and 2) something to alter their mind.

Well, (1) certainly existed.

And (2) certainly existed as well.

Where's the stretch in saying that someone came up with an improvement on these technologies that allowed them to be on one chip?

I think you're right that it is technologically-consistent with the world of BTAS. But I think what may bother some people is that it isn't character-consistent with the Joker.

That's overstating it, of course. What I mean is this: Each of those technologies you mention is pretty closely associated with a particular villain; even in cases where one villain uses another's schtick (as when the Joker uses Tetch's mind control devices in "Make 'Em Laugh") there's an explicit explanation that the borrowing has occurred. ("Make 'Em Laugh," actually, is probably the best argument that the Joker could pull off the ROTJ thing.) But for Two Face to create a magic vine; for Riddler to metamorph his hands into clubs; or for Poison Ivy to shoot laughing gas: though each of these would technologically possible in the BTAS universe, they would feel like a violation of the character. It's not the kind of thing that they do.

At least, that's what I'm guessing someone might react to when they react badly to ROTJ. Me, I just took it as a given, because it allowed all the events and themes of the film to be neatly tied together. :)

[Clayface]

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus


I think you're right that it is technologically-consistent with the world of BTAS. But I think what may bother some people is that it isn't character-consistent with the Joker.



Oh, I agree that its not character consistent for the Joker to come up with the technology himself.

But:
1) I don't think its at all inconsistent with his character to use technology in general like that. As you pointed out, he's already been shown using Hatter's tech.

2) I always assumed that he didn't really come up with technology himself, nor set it all up by himself. I just took it for granted he had someone else put it all together for him, and he just used it for his purposes. The little rant about where it came from was, in my view, a bit of bragging and exaggeration on his part.

[CadaverousEyes]

If he can create a gas that makes people laugh themselves to death, and a mixture that gives fish smiling faces, then he can make a chip encoded with his DNA.

[JusticeLeagueLegion]

Batman Beyond: Return Of The Joker-The Original, Uncut Version? Is this DVD gonna be in stores like Wal-Mart ever? I'm just dying to see this! It's gonna be ausome!!

[Naraht]

Originally posted by JusticeLeagueLegion
Is this DVD gonna be in stores like Wal-Mart ever? I'm just dying to see this! It's gonna be ausome!!

Walmart? Maybe...Best Buy or Circut City would be a better bet.

It's being released in a few months...check the news page

[JusticeLeagueLegion]

Originally posted by naraht


Walmart? Maybe...Best Buy or Circut City would be a better bet.

It's being released in a few months...check the news page

Good...I was just wondering...because, I hardly ever got to places like Best Buy, or Cicuit City...but I'll do what I have to.

[Naraht]

Hopefully, it'll be in most stores...Walmart is the least likey due to the films PG-13 rating, and the fact that Walmart is a very PG store...so I dunno. I'm probably going to get it off of Amazon or another Online Store...

[Joe Wagner]

I would highly doubt that Wal-Mart would get it, esp. if you want it on DVD. When the first ROTJ version came out they got it in on tape about a month later than it should have been. Like naraht said your best bet would probably be to get them off of an on-line store. I would actually be surprised if Wal-Mart got any of the Batman related DVD's in - seems that if it's an animated DVD Wal-Mart won't have it, unless of course it's the newest Disney sequel. BTW, I used to work at a Wal-Mart - I guess I'm allowed to dash their policies a little bit (no unedited music and few animated movies but all the Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen you could possibly want!! There was more than one customer running away in fear!)

-Joe!

[James Harvey]

Wal-Mart is extremely unlikely. They'l have the other four, but I wouldn't bt on ROTJ Uncut. I'd recommend trying stories such as Best Buy. To this day, my two local Wal-Marts still do not have ROTJ on DVD, but they do on VHS. Too bad the uncut ROTJ is a DVD only release.

[Cyclops]

What about Tower Video? :confused:

[Bird Boy]

Originally posted by Batman
What about Tower Video? :confused:

well, I imagine any place that specilizes in Movies will carry this title (remember: if all else fails, find a Suncoast near you! That's the ONLY place that had ROTJ:Edited on DVD for a good 2 months around me). So, don't worry, if you can't find it at Best Buy, Wal Mart or whatever, try your local movie store. It will be more, but this title alone is worth $25...

-BB

[Clayface]

Pre-order it from www.deepdiscountdvd.com if you can. They've got it cheap, they don't charge for shipping, and they're a very reliable site - I now do probably 90% of my preordering with them.

[Naraht]

Originally posted by Clayface
Pre-order it from www.deepdiscountdvd.com if you can. They've got it cheap, they don't charge for shipping, and they're a very reliable site - I now do probably 90% of my preordering with them.

Hrm, they say uncut, but they also say Unrated....=\

What's up with that?

[Clayface]

Originally posted by naraht


Hrm, they say uncut, but they also say Unrated....=\

What's up with that?

They don't update their DVD info once its been put in the computer there. The preorder info for the uncut version was entered into their system before the rating was determined, so, they entered it as not rated.

[Batman's Biggest Fan]

pretty good movie not as good as the uncut version though. in that case edited 4 uncut 4 and a half since i felt it was lacking one small thing

[James]

I love this movie - anyone who bothers to read my posts in this forum knows this and I'll agrue for it till I drop. The challenge is to find grumbles, I agree with Bleu on that one.

Let's see...

I think the soundtrack levels were occasionally too low and the music got swamped in the SFX.

The edited suffers from some of the cuts - especially in the flashback. My problem is not with the Joker's death, but in the cuts coming up to that point. The editing of blood on the Joker/Batman fight loses the intensity of the final showdown, as does the edit to the cinefilm.

On the unedited? Not much wrong at all, except that they couldn't resolve Dana's part in the story. I know they said they didn't have room for it - but they could have at least thrown in a line of dialogue - I think the obmission of her (but the inclusion of checking on Ace!) is perhaps the movies biggest fault!

[Joker85]

This is a great movie! Although I enjoyed the edited version, IMO the unedited is soooo much better! It really is a dark story and the flashback scene(unedited) gave me chills the first time I saw it. Mark Hamill is at his best here! And the way they brought back the Joker actually made sense, which I was worried about when I first heard about the movie. This movie ranks right behind MOTP as the best Batman movie of all time!

[BrendaBat]

I LOVE this movie! The first time I saw the movie (the edited version) one line really confused me. The part where the Joker told Tim to: "Make him [Batman] one of us". It confused me because it seemed like Joker just wanted to kill Batman.
The unedited version cleared that up for me :D. And the flashback was creepier and more heart-breaking in the un-cut version.
I wish more info on Dick Grayson was reveiled. Hopefully, he'll get a Batman Beyond movie, too :)

[rhynokane]

Great movie. Was the flashback an actual episode, or made for the movie to let everyone know what happened to the joker?
How old would Tim Drake be in the flashback?

[James Harvey]

Great movie. Was the flashback an actual episode, or made for the movie to let everyone know what happened to the joker?
It was animated specifically for the movie. It's not from an episode.

How old would Tim Drake be in the flashback?
I'd say a year or two from his regular TNBA age, somewhere between 14 - 16 years old.

[Cyber E.]

I havn't gotten a chance to see the Uneditted Version of this film but even the Editted version ws great, If DG was in it, It woul have been Top Notch but you can't have everything. :-D

[Lonestarr]

I saw the film today for the first time on Toonami. A well-told story with well-placed bits of humor and terrific (vocal) performances, particularly by Mark Hamill, Will Friedle and Michael Rosenbaum (I have to know; was that his decision to voice Ghoul as Christopher Walken or was that the way the character was written? In any event, that was terrific.)

The scene when the Jokerized Tim goes from laughing to crying really got to me. I found it clever how the Joker seemed to live on, and the scene when Terry was ripping into Joker was terrific.

As for the whole "cut/uncut" ordeal, if this is what was in the G-rated version, I gotta see what they cut out!

****

[skite]

my favorite villians were always the twisted ones(mad hater, joker, riddler) this movie was great i liked the edited version cant wait to see the unedited :D

[Crystalfox0]

Well I must say that the movie is one of my top favorite movies. It explains and answears a lot of questions that i had from the TV series. I thought that the whole movie was very clevor. I was especially impressed on how batman eventually defeated the joker by out talking him. I also thought that Harly being the Dee Dee's nanna was halarious. All in all it was a great movie.

[Sandoz]

I've been meaning to check out the uncut version of ROTJ, but never got around to it. This film was very well done, and makes a perfect ending to Batman Beyond. The drama is excellent, and the character development is some of the best ever seen in BB. I wish CN would have shown the uncut version, since I know that the flashback was much more intense, and the Joker's death was far more creepy. I also think that Dana was underused. After Bruce visits Tim, I would've liked to see Terry check on her or something. It would have wrapped things up better. Did I mention the ending was perfect? :p It's too bad we probably won't be seeing anymore BB DTV movies...it still has a lot of untapped potential.

One thing I was wondering: where was Max? Not that I'm a fan of her, but I kept expecting her to show up and solve everything for Terry. :rolleyes: Fortunately that didn't happen. I missed the first 20 minutes of the movie, so pardon me if my question was answered in the beginning.

[Calico]

Originally posted by Lonestarr
Michael Rosenbaum (I have to know; was that his decision to voice Ghoul as Christopher Walken or was that the way the character was written? In any event, that was terrific.)



On the DVD's commentary one of the creators says that they'd always thought his Walken impersonation was hilarious so they asked him to do it for Ghoul.

Watched it again and I have to say I love it more with each viewing (even though it was only the edited version).

"Who sleeps anymore?" :D

[Bleu Unicorn]

After seeing the cut version yesterday on CN, I'm reminded how inferior the uncut makes it. Not that it isn't a great movie in its own right, but the fact that it has another version will always make it, well, inferior. Though, I don't mind saying that I find it to fit into BB continuity a bit better than the uncut -- I won't go into a huge thesis on it here, too early in the morning for such deep analysis.

Anyway, I have the uncut on dvd and am kind of shocked it has taken me this long to respond to this thread. Obviously, it's a wonderful movie, everyone's said as much already. I enjoyed it, and I only had seen the cut for a long, long time. Having had the oppurtunity to view the "true" ROTJ, just makes it better. It's perfectly Batman, dark and suspenseful -- and the flashback just is the icing on the cake. I was always glad that BB didn't go back and resurrect all of the old BTAS villains -- they brought back the ones that could be brought back, or should for the storyline. But instead of piggybacking on BTAS, they tried something different. And I, for one, enjoyed that.

Still, if they were going to pick a villain for a movie, Joker is the best choice. It was nice to flesh out some continuity between BTAS and BB (though, I'm still swayable either way as to whether it is or isn't the future of BTAS, but that's another topic). Actually, the only thing that could have made ROTJ better would have been some more background on Nightwing, but maybe that'll be another movie.

Unfortunately, MOTP, for me, is still slightly ahead of this movie. But still, this one is great in its own right -- a resounding five stars!

[mbaker]

The uncut version is by far the best! (Mark Hamill deserves an Oscar for his performance in that movie!) Joker's "Deliver The Punchline" sentance to Tim makes more sence considering that Mister J. wants to rid himself of The Bat. Plus, Tim shooting Joker while he's upset with his laughing (DO IT!) ties up the loose end as to how he always survives certian death. ("Mask Of The Phantasm, and "World's Finest" come to mind. When he's about to die, he just laughs. Notice the pattern.) Which also ties to how Terry defeats Joker in the end, and saves Tim from being under the influence of his mind control chip. I also agree that Terry should've checked up on Dana at the hospital. It would've tide that up very nicely. Although the perfect ending for Batman Beyond would be if Bruce Wayne finally dies, (He's gonna have to eventually.) and Terry inheretes his entire company. Giving him even more responsibilities (However this would probably happen after he graduates from Hamilton High.) It would be nice if there was another movie that deals with Nightwing (Dick Grayson) Still, this is truy A great movie, and A perfect end for Batman Beyond. I just have one question. Could Ghoul (Michael Rosenbaum) be the great, great grandson of Professor Crain (The Scarecrow) just like the the Dee Dees were Harley's neeces? Ghoul sure dose remind me of Scarecrow.

[Drachentöter]

I also agree Bruce Wayne should've passed on in the series. But it wouldn't make a good movie for children. Too much melodrama. And if Terry inherited the company, before he was twenty for Pete's sake, there would be A LOT of tension between him and co-owners, chairmen, stockholders. He probably wouldn't even know what to do with the company.

If Bruce died he probably would leave Terry a signifcant portion of his fortune though. But then what excuse would Terry have to be out late at night if there is no Mr. Wayne to work for? And who would be his confidant? Max? A Robo-Alfred? Ace, who he seems to have more affection for than his own girlfriend. And what about Dana? When would she learn about McGinnis' secret?

I think BB ended with too many loose ends, which can't be resolved in a movie. Terry ended as being half-Batman and never evolved into a hero in his own right. I think the only shot we have at seeing him evolve is a JLU series. :( The things that could've been.

About the movie, Ghoul did look a lot like the Scarecrow, but he was probably inspired by him, rather than a direct descendant. I liked how Harley survived, but we only saw her at the end and that made me want to know more. Why didn't she seek out Mr. J when he returned? Who did she marry? How'd she clear her name and establish her own life without Commisoner Gordon knowing?

I'm sorry, I'm just the never-ending question man today, aren't I? :D :o

[mbaker]

Good points. Perhaps Bruce Wayne's death would've been too melodramatic for the show's youth appeal. Maybe if he dies, Bruce would pass the Batman legacy to Terry since he's earned the right to ware the suit. I'm also sure Nanna Harley would've loved to see Mister. J again, and well aged even though he's using Tim's body as A time share. Also, I'm pretty sure Terry would eventually tell Dana the truth at some point in his life. Question is, will it work out?

[Steven C]

Awesome movie, my favorite Batman movie!

[TheScarecrow]

I'm a little late here, but I just got this version over the weekend while Christmas shopping for my family (sorry, I just *couldn't* resist), and I'll give you some of my thoughts on it.

First off, I don't own a DVD player yet, so I just viewed this on my parents DVD player today. I am still new to the DVD concept, and was afraid to use it again due to a first DVD I brought being scratched while a climax was playing. Truth be told, if this uncut version were available on VHS, I would've just got that instead because of fears of using DVD.

But seeing this on DVD is great. This movie looks great in wide-screen format (just gives the uncut version that professional touch), and sounds great too. I can hear the little sounds that a VHS recording couldn't pick up and it really just adds to the enjoyment of the movie (kind of like viewing it in a theater, or close to it anyway ;) ).

The story comes off better in its original form (with the flashback still being the best part). Now it doesn't look like Bats is getting beat by a mere sucker punch anymore. :rolleyes: Tim shooting Joker was greater then the accidental death in the edited version, and Andrea Romeo's performance was even more chilling then in the edited version, which just made it a great scene all around. I know some people are disappointed that Dana kind of disappeared from the story (as were the producers), but I am not, as the story was about Bruce, Terry, Tim, and The Joker anyway.

Oh, and the only way Max would've had a *good* part in the movie was if Joker got to kill her off. I'm sure that would've made the movie even better, but it probably would've made me cheer and root for The Joker instead wanting to see Terry put him down once and for all.

The extras:

That deleted storyboarded scene was nice, and kind of a shame that it didn't make the final cut. The commentary track was interesting and had great info (and Bruce Timm sounds like Wes Craven, which was weird). The documentary was nicely done, and Kevin Conroy kinda talks like Al Gore in real life, which is also weird for me. Haven't watched the music video or trailers yet, but I'm probably not missing much. Oh, and Paul Dini is a wonderfully sneaky little devil for writing :harley: back in the way he did after he was forced to kill her off in the flashback. Congrats Paul, your check is in the mail.

Final thoughts:

All and all, this was a great viewing experience. Bruce, Dini, & company should be handling the live action Batman movies because they know these characters and know how to bring them to life.

***** for the whole thing.

[BeastBoyWonder]

Wow. Just wow. This movie rocked, and I watch it over again and again... the uncut version, although the edited version isn't bad either.

[DisneyBoy]

Instead of piggybacking on BTAS, they tried something different. And I, for one, enjoyed that.

I did too, though mostly because I didn't want this series to be associated with B:TAS because I believed it to be vastly inferior. While I may have grown more tolerant of it, I'm still glad a select few characters were brought back into the series.

I'm still swayable either way as to whether it is or isn't the future of BTAS, but that's another topic

You and I are on the same wavelength Bleu! I'd much prefer to leave the Dark Knight's final battles a mystery, but the flashback gives a really nice indication of what could be. The only thing that irks me in this movie is the TMS animation. Everyone loves it, but Batgirl and Harley's hourglass figures are taken to the extreme, and the projection-booth fight between Batman and Joker looked horribly anime. I would have liked to see Don Yang (another company, sorry if it's misspelled) handle the flashback, or at least round out those edges.

Still the film is stylish and clever. It does things fans have only dreamed of, and lets us decide what we want to accept from it. BB fans can walk away feeling like Terry finally earned his title, and those who don't are free to rejoyce that Harley never dies, or that Tim was finally tortured.

:rolleyes: That last line was because I've never been a huge fan of Tims :D

[James]

A question which I can't recall being answered to my knowledge, all though I'm sure has come up...

Well, I watched Return Of The Joker again tonight with my flatbud, Joe. He enjoyed it (despite my continual commentary to what had been intially cut). I certainly found the flashback even more heartbreaking this time round. Perhaps in light of all the great debate that it recently created.

Was it just me, or did Babs hair look more brunette in the film to TNBA..?

Something Joe pointed out was he was surprised Bruce never noticed this wacking great chip on Tim's neck after getting him back from the Joker... comments on that? :)

[TimTwoFace]

That's one thing that always bothered me about this movie. If the chip was on the outside of Robin's neck all this time, why didn't Batman, Leslie Thompkins, or anyone else ever notice it? I'm sure that his body was inspected thoroughly after he was retrieved from the Joker, and it boggles my mind that a microchip that large wasn't spotted. I can't think of a good explanation, aside from "plot hole".

-Tim

[Aberration]

Since a lot of people wanted to see Bruce die in the series (bloodthirsty lot, aren't we?), I'd like to bring up this question, which wasn't seen much the first time I asked it: Does anyone think that Bruce was supposed to die when the Joker broke into the Batcave? A bit part of me thinks (wishes?) that the creators planned this, but backed out because the film was already really dark.

In this scenario, the movie would've been powerful in that it would be the final chapter for both the original Batman and the Joker, and would cement Terry as THE Batman for this world. Of course, if this happened, we would've been robbed of the Bruce/Clark reunion in "The Call", but I'm sure an animated Justice League still looked farfetched in the eyes of the creators when they were writing the movie.

[Steven C]

for those w/ the ROTJ uncut DVD......did u notice that the movie is in widescreen, but the box said its standard version.

[James]

Tim, my two suggestions are:

1) That the implant was deep under the skin at first grafted to his brain, as the Joker grew in control, he added and amended the chip to give him more control, adding an outer link.

2) It was only visible in Joker mode, and that when in Tim Drake's body the chip sunk under the skin..

Not an easy plothole to deal with...

Originally posted by Aberration

In this scenario, the movie would've been powerful in that it would be the final chapter for both the original Batman and the Joker, and would cement Terry as THE Batman for this world. Of course, if this happened, we would've been robbed of the Bruce/Clark reunion in "The Call", but I'm sure an animated Justice League still looked farfetched in the eyes of the creators when they were writing the movie.

I haven't seen anything yet to my knowledge that wouldn't counter the idea that ROTJ could have been the final episode set after the series. The series works better with that as a final episode, and while in that light Bruce's death would have been interesting, we'd have lost the reunion at the end of the film which brings the original crew back together, which I think neatly brings the show to a resoloution.

Terry has completed the ultimate trial and defeated the Joker, Bruce has come to terms with his issues with himself and his friends having got his family business back and begins to rebuild the bridges he previously burned.

[Maxie Zeus]

Originally posted by SJJ
[BSomething Joe pointed out was he was surprised Bruce never noticed this wacking great chip on Tim's neck after getting him back from the Joker... comments on that? :) [/B]

I prefer a darker explanation (http://anbat.toonzone.net/bb/ind/rotj.html).

Basically, I suspect that Bruce did not help in the rehabilitation. Barbara's line is, "We had a trusted friend, Dr. Leslie Thompkins. It took her a year but she was able to help Tim back to sanity. Still, things were never really the same." She does not explicitly say that Bruce simply turned Tim over to Leslie. And it's not really implied. But "Bruce" is not mentioned as having helped.

I favor this idea because it makes sense psychologically and thematically. I think one of the film's sub-themes is that Bruce turned his back on the Bat-family after the Joker debacle. That's is why he is so quick to "fire" Terry after the Joker returns. That is why Tim is still so traumatized and resentful of Bruce. That is why Bruce and Terry win at the end, because Bruce finally endorses Terry as a helper and successor.

And it would explain why Bruce, who obviously could have and would have found the chip if he had been involved, didn't find it. The Joker's line "Robin is mine" is still true even after he dies: He took Robin away and Bruce didn't take him back.

[James]

The simplest and most straightforward answer - and the one that ties in best with the storyline and character motivation. Gets my vote. :)

[ClockStomper]

I'm still angry to this day that Timm and/or whoever buckled to the suits demands agreed to actually reanimate. I would have rather had the shootings in the movie be implied rather than changed. and the new dialouge was ridiculous. I wish the creators had fought more instead of letting them go hog wild with the stupidist and most pointless edits. Or why not leak info to the fans and get them to demandit uncut (which eventually worked.)

Oh well, it's too late now. It's over now.

[James]

My only real grumble in the movie is the part in which Terry, having problems working out who the Joker is, suddenly activates the Batcomputer's plug n' play software and neatly fits the stolen components together.

My flatmate almost died at that scene....

[Maxie Zeus]

Yeah, I'll have to grant you that one, SJJ.

Of course, the Batcomputer has always been omniscient. :D

[James]

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus
Yeah, I'll have to grant you that one, SJJ.

Of course, the Batcomputer has always been omniscient. :D

Curses - and I was hoping you could offer a decent explanation so I could stop that infernal giggling coming from his room.... gah!

[TimTwoFace]

Originally posted by SJJ
My only real grumble in the movie is the part in which Terry, having problems working out who the Joker is, suddenly activates the Batcomputer's plug n' play software and neatly fits the stolen components together.


Let's not forget that the original Batman also did virtually the exact same thing in HEART OF ICE, when he discovered that the various components Freeze stole could create a super-freeze gun.

-Tim

[wonderfly]

Originally posted by TimTwoFace
Let's not forget that the original Batman also did virtually the exact same thing in HEART OF ICE, when he discovered that the various components Freeze stole could create a super-freeze gun.

-Tim

Yeah, see??? There's a historical precedent for that sort of thing from a computer! :p Didn't the same thing happen in the first two G.I Joe miniseries back in the 80's as well?

Someone at Joe Headquarters: "Hmmm...this part, plus that part, and add on that part...OF COURSE, IT'S A WEATHER CONTROLLING DEVICE!"

[Maxie Zeus]

And don't forget "On Leather Wings," where Batman is able to cure Langstrom in only a few short hours.

Is it called "The Batman Omniscience Principle"? "When Batman is around, no one else is allowed to have a brain"? I think we may have stumbled onto an explanation for it.

If it were Bruce Wayne that were omniscient, then he (not Terry) would have been the one to figure out the Joker's plot. So it must be the computer that is doing it all. :D

And then maybe we do have a tidy way of justifying the ROTJ thing: One mass of microchips (the Batcomputer) beats another mass of microchips (the Joker chip)!

Okay, maybe not ... :p

[katfairy]

Except for the minor detail that while Terry is asking the computer to put these things together, he is also trying to find out how a communications expert, one of Tim Drake's caliber, would use them. That probably narrows down the field substantially. He does actually say that, too. It's not like he just has the computer randomly matching the parts; he did set parameters.

[TimTwoFace]

Originally posted by wonderfly
Yeah, see??? There's a historical precedent for that sort of thing from a computer!

Yeah, but at the same time, you can't spend 20 minutes of episode air time dedicated to Batman trying to piece these puzzles together. Every Riddler episode would be three weeks long if that were the case. :p

-Tim

[James]

Perhaps it was the visual image on the computer that ruined it. I think that made it look so easy to put together the images.. if they had just tappity tapped on the keyboard and spouted out the same lines it wouldn't have seemed half as bad..

[Reptile_Orion]

Batman Beyond ROTJ was an excellent film. I hope they decide to make some more films. I wish they would have included Nightwing. The action in the movie was excellent. I love the fight at the beginning. The music was also top notch. One of my favorite tracks is the piece of music from the beginning of the movie (Industrial Heist). It truly was haunting what happened to Tim Drake. I didn't think they would actually go that far but they did. It makes things more realistic. As the comic fans know about the demise of Jason Todd. My favorite scenes are the flashback scene, the fight at the beginning, and the fight between Terry and the Joker. I love Bruce's expression when he first sees the Joker. Classic scene :)

[James]

Originally posted by Reptile_Orion
I love Bruce's expression when he first sees the Joker. Classic scene :)

Totally - made my heart stop on first watch.

Good bits:

Flag pole! I love that opening (uncut) fight scene.

Bruce and the Batarang! Nice character cameos!

Joker's first appearance - spooky and nasty, shows the story is going to cut no slack with the viewers..

Bruce realising the Joker knows who he is and Bats confronting Mister J for the first time.

The Nightclub! What a fight - and no costume showing Terry is worth his weight sans suits.

The Flashback!!

Joker's taunts to Terry, the battle with the goons on the roof and The Joker and Terry's battle.

The end reunion and final shot.



The Bad:

The Plug N' Play Bat Computer

Dana's story going missing

No Nightwing!

Harley should have died I think. If Mister Jay dies - I can't see Harley going on...

The missing Arkham scene was sorely needed.

Price was a dreadful red herring.

Ace watching the WB cartoon. The analogy didn't work for me.

[Maxie Zeus]

Hmm. Agree with all the good.

Originally posted by SJJ
The Bad:
The Plug N' Play Bat Computer
Price was a dreadful red herring.


Agree these were bad. Someone needs to do a "rewrite" of ROTJ like they did with JL, and evertime he opens his mouth Price should say "I'm not a red herring. I really might be the Joker. Seriously. (waggles eyebrows)"

Originally posted by SJJ
The Bad:
Dana's story going missing
No Nightwing!
Harley should have died I think. If Mister Jay dies - I can't see Harley going on...
The missing Arkham scene was sorely needed.
Ace watching the WB cartoon. The analogy didn't work for me.

No, sorry, I have to disagree with these.

* Dana: Maybe she should have got away unhurt so you don't worry about her, but picking up story would just have gotten in the way.

* Nightwing: Argh! Isn't it enough that we got the rest of the cool back stories?! Fanboys can be such gluttons ... ;)

* Harley: No, we needed that light touch at the end. It is just too dark otherwise.

* Arkham scene: Might've added a cool atmospheric touch, but I agree with the crew that it probably wasn't needed. Nothing happened there that told us anything we didn't already know or would find out.

* Ace: Another "light" moment that momentarily relieves the tension.

Okay, one thing that irritates da HECK out of me is Terry's line, "The night is young and so am I." Sorry, that cliched bit of dialogue is totally unworthy of both its writer and the character. I hit MUTE when it comes up.

[James]

Originally posted by Maxie Zeus


No, sorry, I have to disagree with these.

Glad you do!


* Dana: Maybe she should have got away unhurt so you don't worry about her, but picking up story would just have gotten in the way.


Well this so far as stories go this should have been wrapped. All it needed was a single sentence at the end. It sounds silly but being the major role of Terry's normal life, it needed a final reference - even if it was as Bruce is about to see Tim. A 'I'm off to check on Dana then I'm... out." line. Something to remind us that, a) Terry has a life and b) that his girlfriend is important to him.. it just feels like a missing part. I know creative team mention this on the commentary and I think as far as story telling goes, is the films biggest glitch.


* Nightwing: Argh! Isn't it enough that we got the rest of the cool back stories?! Fanboys can be such gluttons ... ;)

Well I don't think there is room for Nightwing, but I think with hindsight, knowing there was to be no more, a reference to where he went or how he is would have been nice, especially as the film ties TNBA up.... but I agree, this is a weak grumble, but I was scrabbling to find nitpicks I could use to balance my comments up...


* Harley: No, we needed that light touch at the end. It is just too dark otherwise.


I don't know. It was all a bit co-incidental. Since the film was hardly a movie for comic scenes (aside from smart dailogue there is barely any) I don't think it was needed. The film lifts at the end anyway with Bruce visiting Tim and Terry getting the appraisal he deserved. A nice cameo maybe, but maybe again, for storysake a Dana/Terry second scene would have made the film tighter.


* Arkham scene: Might've added a cool atmospheric touch, but I agree with the crew that it probably wasn't needed. Nothing happened there that told us anything we didn't already know or would find out.


I still liked it. Again the point is here for the same reason as Nightwings... :) I would liked to have seen this animated and thrown in. I think it would have been quite a haunting scene, especially in regards to the follow through we would have with the flashback. Not needed, but I think it would have given the film an adult edge.


* Ace: Another "light" moment that momentarily relieves the tension.


Didn't work for me at all. I see the comparison, just didn't feel it highlighted Ace's situation very well. In a film like this and seconds are everything it seemed a little wasted.


Okay, one thing that irritates da HECK out of me is Terry's line, "The night is young and so am I." Sorry, that cliched bit of dialogue is totally unworthy of both its writer and the character. I hit MUTE when it comes up.

Well, I never found it too bad. Terry is a bit of a show off and it's there to do that aged old classic of setting up a contradictory scene where Terry is not quite as spritely as he hoped. Interesting. Not a great line, but amusing that it eats into you so badly..! I get that with DIRE Max line in Curse Of The Kobra... Whose bad.... ugh... *mutes*

[Batman]

I just noticed something really cool about this movie. Joker's eyes are bright red. In the very first scene, when Joker says, "Oh yes, but think of the fun." Pause the DVD when he smiles, and you'll see his bright red eyes. I thought that was an awesome little touch, a very "evil" sort of touch.

The red eyes carry throughout the movie in both the flashbacks and present movie time. The neat thing about this was that not only does Joker have the red eyes, but so does Bruce when Terry finds him slumped over the Cave computer, and even Tim Drake when he's Joker-fied.

I tell ya, this one minor change of color to the eyes REALLY adds a LOT to this film. Such a great little flick.

[superfreak]

Excellent cartoon. I am still amazed at the level of details that was done. The graphics come very close to what I see in anime and the plot very good for Batman Beyond; though, there are some plot holes like how the Joker can create the bio-chip without being a scientist. In MOTP, the Joker looked like a gangster from the 1940s. I don't think a gangster can create something as complex as the bio-chip that used on Tim Drake.

[ClockStomper]

He said "using cutting edge genetics technology that I pinched here and there..." meaning he stole the tech and simply followed the instructions to encode his DNA.

[Simpler Simon]

The missing Arkham scene was sorely needed.

Nah. Dunno why, but I feel like it takes away from seeing Arkham and the Joker in the flashback sequence. The less hints that the flashback sequence will eventually take us here, the better.

Ace watching the WB cartoon. The analogy didn't work for me.

Agreed. Though on the uncut commentary, Timm mentions how the synch to "I wish I were dead" comes at exactly the moment Terry asks how Ace is doing. I found that pretty funny. Otherwise, this felt like blatent advertising for WB.

Dana's story going missing

A line or two would've been nice, yeah.

No Nightwing!

I wouldnt want Nightwing shoehorned into the story just for the sake of doing so. This is Tim Drake's spotlight. Besides, I like how not *everything* was revealed in BB - gives Timm and co. some more possibilities to work with.

The Plug N' Play Bat Computer

Off the top of my mind, I can't think of what this referrs to?

[Dr Kain]

Friday I was bored, and decided to watch my dvd of Return of the Joker (Uncut) since I haven't watched it since the day it came out, and I still love that movie. I always found the Joker and dumb villian, and was not any where in my top favs, but when I saw the edited version of this movie when it first came out, I realized how cool and insane Joker is, and he became one of my fav Batman villians. Anyway, I really wish WB would release more Batman Beyond on dvd, hopefully in order unlike the BB The Movie dvd that came out that has eps 4, 6, 8, and 9 on it.

[Orange Brat]

Otherwise, this felt like blatent advertising for WB.

It's simply an elbow to the ribs to whoever chooses to be affected. It's not advertising anything and is a cool moment for the enlightened.

[Maxie Zeus]

I don't remember if I mentioned this -- if I did, it was a long time ago -- but there's a very funny moment on the commentary track to the edited version. In the flashback, right after Joker throws the switch on himself, the film cuts to Batgirl outside, and she reacts to his screams. On the commentaries, Timm has been jabbering along and at that moment he stops and says, "Uh oh, something awful just happend off screen."

... Which I'm sure he only means to refer to Joker's electrocution. But I can't help but read a second meaning into the aside. Since they had to totally ignore the edits that had just been rammed through, it also sounds like an oblique reference to the studio-ordered retakes that we had just seen. Something "awful" did happen offscreen right there, didn't it? :D

[Batman]

This just aired again on Cartoon Network. I never get sick of watching this movie. I'm always amazed, even in it's edited form, how powerful of a flick this is. It's not as powerful as Phantasm, but this is such a mature, intense movie. Makes me wish we had more Batman Beyond coming.

[Revelator]

Hmm. Agree with all the good.
* Ace: Another "light" moment that momentarily relieves the tension.

But also a dark forboding sign. IIRC, the dog moans 'I killed da poor bunny wabbit!', and the line is mentally designed to prepare us for the Joker's death.
We're accustomed to thinking that characters never really die in cartoons, and we watch the clip ace watches and think "Oh, but Bugs isn't dead. You can't kill off an iconic character." Having thought this, minutes later we have our assumptions rubbed in our face when we actually watch the Joker die onscreen. This time we're too poleaxed to reassure ourselves of anything. The Joker really does die, and though a DNA projection of him lives, on, it's not the real thing, and even that is eventually destroyed too. Dini has prepped us for a move that deconstructs the accepted conventions of mainstream american animation by recalling the past that helped cement those conventions.
The carton within the cartoon is a light, playful jab by Dini, designed to set up an unconscious frame of mind that will leave us offguard when the film becomes truly harrowing.

The edited version of the film, by the way, is an abomination. A subtle, limited piece of butchery, but bad surgery none-the-less. I feel sorry for people who saw the cut version first--believe me, the movie has far more impact the other way around.

[Fone Bone]

Awesome flick and on of the best outings in the DCAU along with Mask of the Phantasm, Twilight, Legacy, Apokolips... Now!, On Leather Wings, Heart of Ice and a select other few episodes. The movie contains my favorite scene in the entire DCAU when Terry is taunting the Joker at the climax by laughing at him.

Joker: Don't you dare laugh at me!

Batman: Why? I thought the Joker always wanted to make Batman laugh!

Joker: YOU'RE NOT BATMAN!!!

This culminates in Joker throttling Terry in a terrifying manner. (Gee, it's always funny when Homer does it to Bart.) This is the best Batman movie ever. (Yeah, it just squeaks ahead of Mask of the Phantasm.)

The animation was incredible. The Jokerz fight at the beginning, the rave, the flashback, and of course the explosions at the end. Is there anything TMS can't do? The ending explosions were by the same guy who animated "Akira" but I enjoyed this more because I could actually follow it.:D

Bruce Timm needs to do one last DCAU DTV. (Preferably Justice League.) It seems the movies he's involved in are incredible while those he isn't... aren't. A fantastic movie and a fantastic conclusion to Batman Beyond. (However, I wouldn't sneeze at a JLU Beyond appearance on "Justice League Unlimited". With Zeta of course!) Score: *****.

[Cobblepot1982]

While I DID think the Uncut version was SO much better than the Edited version, I DID like Joker's death better in the Edited Version- it just had so much more of that "disturbing" quality to it, IMO. And I found it INCREDIBLY ironic that Joker's demise happened in OLD Arkham Asylum.

[ClockStomper]

I think the reason for the flubs (Dana unresolved, "Jolly Jack" continuity error, cops outside the exploding building) was the post-production was interupted by the whole editing debackle. It was a month or two before the original October release date, so it sounds about right.

[The Detective]

I saw the edited version on CN's cartoon theatre a few years but just recently I bought the unedited DVD and wow! This movie really is awesome, maybe even better than MOTP, I'd have to rewatch both. The movie really made me respect Terry I little more and I think is a fitting end to Batman Beyond, with Terry fully earning his spot as Batman. Mark Hammil's preformance was the best he has ever given. Kevin Conroy did a good job too, particularly in the flash back sequences. ("I'll break you in two)

In spite of this, I have one quibble. Just one. I don't mind that they didn't pick back up on Dana, I don't like her anyway. The Bat Computer at the end doesn't really bother me, but what does is Terry suddenly coming up with Jolly Jack. I really think they should have had Joker eating some candy or something that said Jolly Jack on it. 'Cuz when Terry finally hops in the car and has the computer search for Jolly Jack it's really jarring. That's my only quibble though.

A full five stars. This movie convinces me that Paul Dini is the greatest writer to work in the DCUA. "Heart of Ice", "Over the Edge", and now this.

[BBunny]

I really liked this movie. My favorite part was the flashback sequence.

5 * for the uncut version.
2 * for the edited version.
:D

[The Detective]

He said "using cutting edge genetics technology that I pinched here and there..." meaning he stole the tech and simply followed the instructions to encode his DNA.Haha, I can see it now. "Holding DNA chip B, place syringe E, into socket F, then with encoder Y, put.....HARLEY!!!!!!!!"

[Stu]

I find it hard to believe that anyone could rate a full *** from the edited version. It wasn't that bad.

Anyways, this film is outstanding. A fitting finale to both the Batman/Joker feud as well as an unofficial ending to Batman Beyond. Everything else has already been said, but, the music in this film is quite possibly the greatest music in the DCU. The arkham music, the opening, the ending credits, the end theme as Terry puts his mask on. Truly fantastic.

*****