Fridays Talkback: The Life & Times of Juniper Lee [9/29/06]

[Freedom Fighter]

http://fridays.toonzone.net/talkbacks/fridays.gifhttp://fridays.toonzone.net/talkbacks/juniperlee.gif
In a world full of monsters and demons...Every day in the city of Orchid Bay, an 11-year old girl fights back monsters that we can't see that want to take over our world. These adventures are compiled for your enjoyment... these are The Life & Times of Juniper Lee. What awaits our reluctant heroine in Season 3?
Tonight's Premiere: #32 "Out of the Past"
Airs: Friday, Sept. 29 at 9:30 pm - Encore: Tonight at 11:30 pm
Summary: No summary available.
Flashback to the Last Premiere: "Make Me Up Before You Go-Go" Talkback (http://forums.toonzone.net/showthread.php?t=174856)
Tonight's other new episodes on Fridays: "Camp Lazlo" (8 pm) and "Codename: Kids Next Door" (8:30 pm). Also note... it is a same-night encore this week for Juniper!

Juniper takes a break for October, save for the 20th, where there's a broadcast of the show's Halloween special, which debuted last year. See ya in November, folks!

[Bubblegum Girl]

That was a cool episode. It all action-packed. Plus we to get to see June in her own battle armor.(Though I kept on thinking that June would use those dark magic rocks from the begining). The battle between June and the evil Tu Xaun Ze dude was really cool. We need to see more fights like that. ;)

[Kagetsu]

Do not take the dark path young June, easier, more seductive it is. http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/1030/yodabb0.gif

Ooo, she keeps finding these nono's, first the love potion and now emeralds. I still think the magic objects should be a bigger part, and this dark magic turning up is rather cool.AhMah's staff looked rather plain this time but June looks great in armour. Haven't seen that since the Sandman.

She fights Samurai jack? Though he carries a taichi sword instead of a katana. Really nice detail to the character though. I expected his words would have a little more effect on June wavering in her commitment.

Really Monroe bushwhacked Ray-Ray, then make a gentlemans agreement,,, sucker.

Nice episode

[Railith]

This was an awesome episode, but I really wanted June to go to the dark side and force choke Pademe.

[Scirel]

I know I`m going to sound really biased when I say this, but if they had takena more "anime-like" route with this, it would have been far cooler.
Don`t get me wrong, sometimes anime stretches things out to ten episodes that should have been 3 or 4, but this was something, like Loki, that deserved far more attention than it got.

June is far too strong in comparison to who she suposedly fights for the show to be really interesting. She's now beaten both a dark god and the so called "best TSZ ever" in a singe episode without being wounded. what could she not possibly be able to do?They keep saying he was the best ever, yet June beats him fairly easily. This guy could have been the Chase Young to June's Omi, but instead he's a forgettable oneshot.

June, for all her complaining and even once abdication of being the Ter shwan ze(or is it Tesh wan Ze? Why cant they stick with a pronounciation?) she never once waivered here, which really made no sense for all the buildup of ahma leaving her behind the first time and telling her she was like him. What was the point of it?

what could have been a great arc and a chance for charachter development is wasted in a single episode that(surpise!) dosen`t affect much of anything. Hmm.. I believe this reminds me of another dissapointing CN action show. I believe it is called Ben10.

[Kagetsu]

I know I`m going to sound really biased when I say this, but if they had takena more "anime-like" route with this, it would have been far cooler. So not in animation, but in giving a little more depth to the story by allowing the characters to react in unexpected ways and allowing change to create more depth? I rather agree. This show is a little in between what is normal for CN and a series with continuity. At the start it appeared to be a simple "smackdown the badies with lots of laughs". Easy to be understood by the kids. Yet every so often, they create a more complex story for the characters to make complex decisions and display emotions other than "oh yEA". It feels they are trying to walk a line between "good story telling" and "what exec's think will keep the kids watching".
Don`t get me wrong, sometimes anime stretches things out to ten episodes that should have been 3 or 4, but this was something, like Loki, that deserved far more attention than it got.

June is far too strong in comparison to who she suposedly fights for the show to be really interesting. She's now beaten both a dark god and the so called "best TSZ ever" in a singe episode without being wounded. what could she not possibly be able to do?They keep saying he was the best ever, yet June beats him fairly easily. This guy could have been the Chase Young to June's Omi, but instead he's a forgettable oneshot. They tend to give her too much strength in my opinion and rely less on magic which I'd like more. The comparison with Xiaolin Showdown is rather acurate. They share the same basic story structure, at least to me. But whereas Chase has demon power, this guy's power had been transfered to the the current TeXianZe, June. So his power is diminished. And too be fair, against Loki she had help from "T-money" Thor, and later Loki's son.

June, for all her complaining and even once abdication of being the Ter shwan ze(or is it Tesh wan Ze? Why cant they stick with a pronounciation?) she never once waivered here, which really made no sense for all the buildup of ahma leaving her behind the first time and telling her she was like him. What was the point of it?

what could have been a great arc and a chance for charachter development is wasted in a single episode that(surpise!) dosen`t affect much of anything. Hmm.. I believe this reminds me of another dissapointing CN action show. I believe it is called Ben10.It did feel June should have been swayed more after all of her self-questioning in earlier stories. Especially after AhMah didn't believe in her. It's possible that that story arc is coming to an end with this episode and they wanted to wrap it up. He would have made a good "Chase" though, always tempting her to darken her path and together assaulting the elders magic. But where could he hide to bide time? The stone located him so quickly.

still a good episode though.

[TuxedoKamen]

So not in animation, but in giving a little more depth to the story by allowing the characters to react in unexpected ways and allowing change to create more depth? I rather agree. This show is a little in between what is normal for CN and a series with continuity. At the start it appeared to be a simple "smackdown the badies with lots of laughs". Easy to be understood by the kids. Yet every so often, they create a more complex story for the characters to make complex decisions and display emotions other than "oh yEA". It feels they are trying to walk a line between "good story telling" and "what exec's think will keep the kids watching".

As for walking that fine line, we're lucky we get as much continuity as we do. It really makes the show stand out. But it almost has to be snuck in. CN doesn't want season-long (or especially multi-season) storyarcs. It likes Cartoon Cartoons and original CN material that is easily syndicated. Having to obey a specific airing order makes syndication difficult.

They tend to give her too much strength in my opinion and rely less on magic which I'd like more. The comparison with Xiaolin Showdown is rather acurate. They share the same basic story structure, at least to me. But whereas Chase has demon power, this guy's power had been transfered to the the current TeXianZe, June. So his power is diminished. And too be fair, against Loki she had help from "T-money" Thor, and later Loki's son.

Te Xuan Ze, from what I've seen, are supposed to be able to hold their own against top tier magical creatures. Additionally, even if they aren't meant to toss fists with them directly, the ability to at least not be immediately pummeled to death by gods is a necessary skill. Though I was surprised when June held back Thor's hammer in "Citizen June." I rationalize this by deciding this version of Thor isn't very aggressive and just wasn't trying very hard. Though minimal effort by a god is still an incredible thing to hold back.
Likewise, Loki is the Prince of Lies. The Norse God of Chaos. Direct physical combat isn't his style. He's a master manipulator and prefers to entrap and use people as he sees fit. This is why we've never really seen a smackdown between he and June. If he ever *did* decide to fight, holding nothing back, she'd be thrashed seven ways from Sunday, no question. It's significant that Thor and those Trolls, and later Taylor were instrumental in beating back Loki. June could've danced around him for a while, but she's just not in his power class.

You may like magic more, and I agree that a lot of the artifacts and magical lore set up as background is pretty cool, but it'd make no sense for June to suddenly become a mage. It doesn't fit her character: she's 11, so the most simplistic solutions are seen as the best. And for someone with anger management problems, the most expidient solution is "hit it and hit it and hit it some more." When that doesn't work we see her try other things. She also doesn't know as much about magic yet as she does about hand-to-hand combat, but this is slowly changing. She already uses more magic *now* than she did in the very beginning. And I personally am not sure I want her relying on magic quite yet. She was ready to use those dark magic stones without considering the consequences. Let her get a little more experience under her belt first. She's still got a lot to learn. She can't corrupt her soul or do whatever else dark magic does to the user as long as she's just using her fists.

It did feel June should have been swayed more after all of her self-questioning in earlier stories. Especially after AhMah didn't believe in her. It's possible that that story arc is coming to an end with this episode and they wanted to wrap it up. He would have made a good "Chase" though, always tempting her to darken her path and together assaulting the elders magic. But where could he hide to bide time? The stone located him so quickly.

I loved the Jasmine/June tension. I think a huge part of this show is June growing into her powers, and it was awesome to see Jasmine not only underestimating her physically (which is almost expected) but misjudging her strength of character. I'm with June--I don't really see how Jasmine could think what she thought after spending so much effort harping on June about her duties. Did she just think June wasn't listening. Regardless, it made Jasmine look really bad until the last 10 minutes or so.

As for why June didn't sway more under Ki Yee's pressure--I think she did. Unfortunately, this isn't The Wonder Years, so we didn't get a voiceover of her internal thoughts. But firstly, she'd just watched him beat the crap out of her grandmother. Recall earlier in the episode how horrified she was to find Jasmine getting manhandled (seriously, Jasmine took a lot of beatings in this ep). So that, at least, would solidify her impression of him in her 11 year old mind as "not good. At all." That's going to taint whatever he offers her.

Second, recall earlier in the ep she echoes Ki Yee: "Why fight, if we can just ... win?" Then she's faced with this corrupted version of someone who was so much like her, and she doesn't like what she sees. I'm guessing too, she thought of all the times people she cared about would've been hurt or died if she hadn't been there: her parents on the bridge in "Backyard," Jody, Ophelia, and Roger in "Pilliage," Jodi, Ophelia, and Roger in "Witch Ain't Dead." Ki Yee wants absolute power. he wants to be a dictator and doesn't give a crap about protecting humanity. So, given a choice between absolute power (and she's probably cynical enough to realize he's lying about sharing) and protecting her friends and family, "No thanks. I'd ... rather ... fight."

I think it was a hugely important defining moment for her.

[S]till a good episode though.

Yes. It was awesome.

[Freedom Fighter]

Here we've got a growing-of-age episode for Juniper. It finally gets through her headstrongedness that there's more to being the Te Xuan Ze than just winning. Especially when fighting against Kei-Lee, the so-called strongest-ever Te Xuan Ze.

The episode is misleading about the beginning, making me think this was about a silly old sneaker salesman trying to get a leg up on the competition by stealing a statue of Kei-Lee and to bring him to life to go destroy said competition. Thankfully, Kei-Lee had other plans...

Seeing the torch being passed from Jasmine to June (in terms of overall strength) was bittersweet, as Ah-mah had to get the stuffing beat out of her before she realized, despite her tendency to hit first and ask questions later, that June had surpassed her.

The problem I have with this episode is what happens from this point on. The actual fight between June and Kei-Lee? Pretty dull, IMO. I mean, this show's had some really good fights and some really horrible ones. This slanted slightly towards the horrible end, but only because it didn't feel like a good fight. It didn't feel as if this was a 'if June doesn't win, the world ends' fight. The potential was there for a great fight and it didn't seem as if any of it was realized here. That's a sad disappointment.

I just can't overlook this unexciting fight... it just really drags this episode down. Almost as much as if this episode was going to about the lame sneaker salesman trying to destroy the competition.

"Out of the Past": 6.5/10.

[TuxedoKamen]

Here we've got a growing-of-age episode for Juniper. It finally gets through her headstrongedness that there's more to being the Te Xuan Ze than just winning. Especially when fighting against Kei-Lee, the so-called strongest-ever Te Xuan Ze.

Agreed. This episode might not have been the funniest or the flashiest, but it's definely one of the most important so far in terms of June's development--right up there with "Dog Day" for its last five minutes and the whole of Monster Con, where June a) begins to distinguish herself from her grandmother and as a worthy successor in the eyes of the magical community and b) is introduced to truly malignant forces in the form of HAM.

Seeing the torch being passed from Jasmine to June (in terms of overall strength) was bittersweet, as Ah-mah had to get the stuffing beat out of her before she realized, despite her tendency to hit first and ask questions later, that June had surpassed her.

Yeah. Actually, watching Jasmine get beat up so many times was downright disturbing. And it wasn't just Ki Yee (is it Yee or Lee?): she lost rather badly to those DeFeets morons. You almost expect the "Greatest Te Xuan Ze" to be able to beat her, but the rent-a-thugs doing it really changed the tone. It really rubs in that Jasmine is old, and quickly getting to the point where she won't really be able to protect June anymore. We're probably already there. She barely stayed on her feet long enough to finish the fight in Monster Con, and was, in terms of the combat, a non-player here. I wonder if the show will touch explicitly on June's reaction to seeing her grandmother's power continue deteriorate. You get the sense that June worships her and likely (at least before this ep) considered her immortal and unbeatable.

Actually, to me the bigger (and far more interesting) issue with regards to Jasmine was the revelation that she didn't really trust June to be incorruptible, even after spending so much time drilling the importance of duty into her and telling her over and over again that she would be the best. (As I said above, I believe June's motivation for fighting was largely her own.) Some of those words were obviously hollow--when it came down to a real test, Jasmine pulled the panic lever. She wanted to indoctrinate June and at the same time corral her when necessary, and we see here that simply won't work. Even though they won and made up at the end, I can't help but think their relationship has been irrevocably changed from here on out: a little less innocent, and a little less blindly obedient and trusting on June's part. Time will tell.

The problem I have with this episode is what happens from this point on. The actual fight between June and Kei-Lee? Pretty dull, IMO. I mean, this show's had some really good fights and some really horrible ones. This slanted slightly towards the horrible end, but only because it didn't feel like a good fight. It didn't feel as if this was a 'if June doesn't win, the world ends' fight. The potential was there for a great fight and it didn't seem as if any of it was realized here. That's a sad disappointment.

I see where you're coming from. Given the power levels (I hate using that term, but can't think of anything else) and stakes involved, it would've seemed like it should've been a flashier fight. But then again, Ki Yee (Lee?) was dramatically stronger, better trained, and better armed (sword vs. staff). June was not in a position to survive a full frontal confrontation. Every time she charged directly at him, he shrugged her off with ease. If he hadn't, he would've seemed less the Super Awesome Best Ever Te Xuan Ze. It came down to surviving for her, and using whatever dirty tricks she could think of to win. I loved the use of the shield as a weapon and transportation tool, and the whole "Why are you hitting yourself?" thing was June at her best: angry and creative and too stubborn to lose.

Now if this fight had happened when June was a little older and better trained, it would've been a lot flashier and epic, but as it was, it was willpower and stubborness (June) vs absolute skill (Ki Yee). At least, that's how I interpreted it.

[Kodra]

After watching this episode a few more times, a theory as popped into my head. It seems all too likely that Kai Yee is the reason that the Veil was created. We know that the Veil was created sometime in the past 400 years (Auntie Roon was banished when the Veil didn't exist). Kai Yee was fighting to prevent a war between Magic and Humans, which seems to indicate that at his time their wasn't a veil either. He also was a relatively young Te Xuan Ze when he attacked the elders, as he looks to be in either his 20s or 30s. It is entirely likely that he didn't leave behind an heir to the mantle. Because of this, the war that Kai Yee was holding back would be inevitable. The Elders at this point decided to seperate Magic and Humanity through the creation of the Veil.

It seems like a lot of hypothesis, but there's a decent amount of evidence. One thing that I noticed in this show was that Ah Mah absolutely loathed Kai Yee, on a level that she didn't even display to HAM. It puzzled me greatly, because even if he was an evil Te Xuan Ze, the vehement hatred she had for him seems uncharacteristic. But if this is the case, if Kai Yee is responsible for the Veil, the Barrier, all of that, then any Te Xuan Ze would hate him for what he did to them. You will also notice that Jasimine called Kai Yee "Their Greatest Curse". Further evidence for my theory.

What else can we gather from this episode? Well, we know that Monroe trained Kai Yee, as he was the aide to the Te Xuan Ze during the banishment of Auntie Roon. It is as such interesting that Monroe was not there to help Jasimine fight him, but it's possible that seeing his greatest failure again would be too much for the Scottish advisor. It is an interesting prospect to think about. Monroe's failure to teach Kai Yee the restraint necessary could have been because the imminent war between Magic and Humanity. Something tells me that Monroe's never really shrugged that off.

Anyways, that's my theory. If you have any thoughts or criticisms, feel free to post or IM me.

Kodra

[Kagetsu]

Veil,,, gees, another Guardian of the Veil? My shows have semitry after all :anime:

I don't think Monroe is over 400 years old, but I'd have to see Meet the Parent again. I don't even think William was over 400.

I'd forgotten Aunty Roon didn't know about the veil, they may have said how long she had been banished, but I'm not sure.

I think she hated him so much because she was afraid June could become just like him and that he betrayed everything she stood for in life.

[TuxedoKamen]

Veil,,, gees, another Guardian of the Veil? My shows have semitry after all :anime:

I don't think Monroe is over 400 years old, but I'd have to see Meet the Parent again. I don't even think William was over 400.

I'd forgotten Aunty Roon didn't know about the veil, they may have said how long she had been banished, but I'm not sure.

I think she hated him so much because she was afraid June could become just like him and that he betrayed everything she stood for in life.

The Te Xuan Ze from 400 years ago seen battling Roon in "Witch Ain't Dead" did so with Monroe by his side. The Veil was raised after this. 200 years ago Ki Yee was active and the Veil was presumably down (magic/human war implies everyone saw everybody). Unless Monroe took a sabbatical (highly unlikely) he would've been active for Ki Yee's reign of terror.

I agree that Ki Yee represents a rejection of everything Jasmine holds dear and she was surely afraid for June, but it does seem a bit odd she was more violently hateful and fearful of him than HAM. Powerful or no, he's just one guy. HAM is an army of dudes and dudettes who want to put June and Ray Ray and every other magical being under lock and key for experimenting...or just kill them.

[Kodra]

I believe Monroe is 600 and William is 800 or 900. But yeah, Auntie Roon recognized Monroe when she came back. So regardless, Monroe has seen the creation of the Veil. Kai Yee seems as likely as any event that would cause the existence of the Veil as any.