Cartoon Network at a crossroad?

[batman_cool]

This year so far has been a dismal year for Cartoon Network. First, Disney moved pass the network in term of ratings. Pokemon: Battle Frontier has been beating up badly by reruns of Spongebob. Highly-anticipated Fantastic 4 has been disappointing. Ratings for Naruto and Ben 10 have been steadily declining. Teen Titans was cancelled and the movie got rough up by the Avatar special the other day. I hate to say it but My Gym's Partner a Monkey, together with Foster's, are the only saving grace at the moment. Looking at the schedule for the rest of the year, things are not looking good. I would not be surprised if Toon Disney will move pass the network soon.

[Mugen]

Pokemon: Battle Frontier has been beating up badly by reruns of Spongebob. Highly-anticipated Fantastic 4 has been disappointing. Ratings for Naruto and Ben 10 have been steadily declining. Teen Titans was cancelled and the movie got rough up by the Avatar special the other day. I hate to say it but My Gym's Partner a Monkey, together with Foster's, are the only saving grace at the moment. Looking at the schedule for the rest of the year, things are not looking good. I would not be surprised if Toon Disney will move pass the network soon.

Doesn't Spongebob reruns beat EVERY kids show at that time? I mean it's surprising that kids still watch the same episode over and over again, but then again it's Nick.:shrug:

Declining ratings for Naruto? That won't make Sketch happy.:(

I don't think Toon Disney will pass CN. Looking at the ratings for that Ying, Yang, Yo! show, they have a while before they catch up.

[veemonjosh]

Ratings for Naruto and Ben 10 have been steadily declining.

I feel sad for this generation. They missed the awesomeness of Rock Lee.

[vanidad]

I also feel sad by teen titans.:(

but it is not always sees the negative side of the things always there is a positive side thinks. :)

[One Radical Dude]

Do you think that some of the little things may have hurt Cartoon Network? When I say little things, I mean the packaging of the network (the decline of cityscape bumpers in favor of more generic looking ones), trying to be more like Nickelodeon, and being more open to live action stuff (though we haven't seen much of it lately, except for Pee-Wee on [adult swim]). Just a thought.

[Sketch]

The ratings for Naruto will probably improve with the recap but it's just putting a bandage over the situation because that boost never seems to last. CN is killing itself and frankly I don't have a clue how they might fix that but they'd better do it fast.

[Dr.Pepper]

Disney getting better ratings than CN is sad news.:( Right now KND and Ed Edd n Eddy are the only real cool shows on the channel. I guess Billy & Mandy and Foster's are sorta cool.

[Chrono1995]

I don't know. It's weird. Cartoon Network keeps trying harder and harder to push into the mainstream (which is a largely a miss for them, I miss stuff like Cow & Chicken and Samurai Jack), whereas Adult Swim just keeps getting weirder and weirder, and it's ratings continue to go through the roof.

[Mugen]

I don't know. It's weird. Cartoon Network keeps trying harder and harder to push into the mainstream (which is a largely a miss for them, I miss stuff like Cow & Chicken and Samurai Jack)

This reminds me of Talib Kweli's album The Beautiful Struggle(trying to go mainstream, but failed).

[Chrono1995]

This reminds me of Talib Kweli's album The Beautiful Struggle(trying to go mainstream, but failed).

Exactly. CN is trying so hard to match up to Disney and Nickelodeon that they've forgotten the being their own thing and staying creative is what will distinguish them from the pack. CN still doesn't have a Spongebob or a Jetix, and they should stop trying.

[Mugen]

CN still doesn't have a Spongebob or a Jetix, and they should stop trying.

CN doesn't need Jetix, they have Toonami.;)

[Chrono1995]

CN doesn't need Jetix, they have Toonami.;)

All right, so I couldn't come up with a show on a Disney to draw a fair comparison, since 1) Disney sucks and 2) ergo, I don't watch Disney. Toonami and Adult Swim are really what are keeping the network afloat.

[William C. Maune]

This year so far has been a dismal year for Cartoon Network. First, Disney moved pass the network in term of ratings. Pokemon: Battle Frontier has been beating up badly by reruns of Spongebob. Highly-anticipated Fantastic 4 has been disappointing. Ratings for Naruto and Ben 10 have been steadily declining. Teen Titans was cancelled and the movie got rough up by the Avatar special the other day. I hate to say it but My Gym's Partner a Monkey, together with Foster's, are the only saving grace at the moment. Looking at the schedule for the rest of the year, things are not looking good. I would not be surprised if Toon Disney will move pass the network soon.

Do you have any data to back up those claims? Spongebob, reruns or new, generally beats everything. If Pokemon was being beaten "badly" it wouldn't still have two slots. Fantastic 4 has received mixed reviews, but based on the Talkback threads, most folks seem to like it decently well so far. I don't think we've seen any ratings that would indicate Naruto or Ben 10 are declining. Could be, we just don't know. Similarly, I don't think we've seen any ratings of Teen Titans vs. the Avatar special.

[batman_cool]

The Avatar special was watched by more than 4.1 million viewers, while the Teen Titans movie wasn't even on the radar. Reruns of Spongebob on the 9-10 slot (Saturday), opposite of Pokemon, did even better than the Avatar special and improved substantially from last week. That should not have happened if Pokemon has been making an impact. In fact, the network has not said anything about Pokemon: Battle Frontier on their press releases since it debuted. As for Ben 10 and Naruto, their decline in the ratings has been obvious. In fact, My Gym Partner's a Monkey has been consistently beating Ben 10 in the ratings (for Saturday morning's shows.) Finally, Fantastic 4 is no JLU. I watched JLU and Fantastic 4 is no where near the quality of JLU (or even Teen Titans for that matter.)

http://tv.zap2it.com/tveditorial/tve_main/1,1002,272|||cable2,00.html (http://tv.zap2it.com/tveditorial/tve_main/1,1002,272%7C%7C%7Ccable2,00.html)

[Nobuyuki sama]

Fantastic 4 is no JLU. I watched JLU and Fantastic 4 is no where near the quality of JLU (or even Teen Titans for that matter.)
But that has nothing to do with ratings performance. ;)

[William C. Maune]

The Avatar special was watched by more than 4.1 million viewers, while the Teen Titans movie wasn't even on the radar. Reruns of Spongebob on the 9-10 slot (Saturday), opposite of Pokemon, did even better than the Avatar special and improved substantially from last week. That should not have happened if Pokemon has been making an impact. In fact, the network has not said anything about Pokemon: Battle Frontier on their press releases since it debuted. As for Ben 10 and Naruto, their decline in the ratings has been obvious. In fact, My Gym Partner's a Monkey has been consistently beating Ben 10 in the ratings (for Saturday morning's shows.) Finally, Fantastic 4 is no JLU. I watched JLU and Fantastic 4 is no where near the quality of JLU (or even Teen Titans for that matter.)

http://tv.zap2it.com/tveditorial/tve_main/1,1002,272|||cable2,00.html (http://tv.zap2it.com/tveditorial/tve_main/1,1002,272%7C%7C%7Ccable2,00.html)

From what you are saying here, you have some ratings for Nick shows, but none for Cartoon Network. You can't assume anything from what information you have.

[Kagetsu]

Teen Titans vs Avatar? Personally, I watched both. But I also feel the "superhero" camp seems to be different than a regular animation viewer. Maybe it's just the hostility I've noticed. :shrug: Though I taped TT, I felt it was more likely to be shown again a few more times. Where as Nick has a habit of giving one chance only to see Avatar. So that would give it prioity in peoples minds as "primary viewers". Maybe, it's just a better show. :shrug:

Every so often, CN tries to be an "animation channel", and brings in new styles of shows and creates new ideas. But they always seem to go for the easy ratings getters. Simple and funny (to average 6-11 viewers) is king. I'm impressed by the fact that they try new shows. Otherwise they'd still be in the CartoonCartoon era. :p

I just hope they don't continue down the road of live action sitcoms (LASit) of "cute kids saying cool stuff" That Disney seems to be on. :p

[The Horcrux]

I don't even watch CN anymore now that Teen Titans is dead with every other show I loved on it. NOTHING is worth watching on CN anymore.

[Dr.Pepper]

I really think that Cartoon Network is starting to die.:crying:

[Anthony C.]

I really think that Cartoon Network is starting to die.:crying:

Predicition for CN in 2009, half of their shows will be live-action.

[Sketch]

From what you are saying here, you have some ratings for Nick shows, but none for Cartoon Network. You can't assume anything from what information you have.

It's not that they don't track CN it's that it's the top broadcasts in general. So they do track CN as well I imagine. And even if they didn't CN would surely release a PR flaunting victory over those kinds of ratings if Pokemon and Titans beat Sponge and Avatar respectively.

Loosing to Sponge Bob is downright expected though. I didn't think Titans could beat Avatar either since Titans didn't get on the top 30 in it's prime nearly as much as Avatar has. But I was still hoping at least the Toonami showing would beat the Saturday Avatar showing (Friday was obviousy not going to happen).

[The Horcrux]

I really think that Cartoon Network is starting to die.:crying:

What do you mean die? It IS dead!

[William C. Maune]

It's not that they don't track CN it's that it's the top broadcasts in general. So they do track CN as well I imagine. And even if they didn't CN would surely release a PR flaunting victory over those kinds of ratings if Pokemon and Titans beat Sponge and Avatar respectively.

Loosing to Sponge Bob is downright expected though. I didn't think Titans could beat Avatar either since Titans didn't get on the top 30 in it's prime nearly as much as Avatar has. But I was still hoping at least the Toonami showing would beat the Saturday Avatar showing (Friday was obviousy not going to happen).

Nick regularly beats CN in every timeslot and has for years. The fact that they didn't top Nick in these instances doesn't mean much. What really matters is how the ratings were compared to what CN usually airs, and that we don't know.

[Zechs]

I haven't been watching much regular CN lately because most of the shows don't appeal to me. I think people forget that CN is a KIDS network first and foremost. So they will cater to KIDS first. I'm assuming that most of the people posting here are between the ages of 15-25. This means that most of the shows on CN aren't made for us to enjoy. Sadly most cartoon networks tend to ignore the adult demographic because most other stations are dealing with it.

I've pretty much taken to reading manga and watching anime because it appeals more to my age group. CN is not going to change because a few older fans are upset with the new format. IMO it just means it's time to move on to something bigger and better which I already have done. Also boomerang is another good choice for older animation fans. Though I have a feeling before it's all over it will be CN 2.

[Rurouni Kenshin]

Wait, isn't Naruto still getting awesome ratings on Saturdays, I would assume so since its still getting an encore.

[Sketch]

It gets an encore because it gets better ratings than the rest of Toonami as for being highly rated otherwise... seems with all demos it's one of their top draws but with younger viewers it might not be quite the power house it was earlier this year. It made top 30 with 12-17 last Saturday but that doesn't mean jack to CN. It hasn't made the 9-14 top 30 for cable in a while but it probably will this week as the recaps and specials seem to draw great ratings and it should hang on to that for a while and then probably fizzle off again. Then again it got some great ratings in November of last year so it's possible it will have another great November (it should with the 3rd exam coming up and Jiriya's in da house).

[Anthony C.]

It gets an encore because it gets better ratings than the rest of Toonami as for being highly rated otherwise... seems with all demos it's one of their top draws but with younger viewers it might not be quite the power house it was earlier this year. It made top 30 with 12-17 last Saturday but that doesn't mean jack to CN. It hasn't made the 9-14 top 30 for cable in a while but it probably will this week as the recaps and specials seem to draw great ratings and it should hang on to that for a while and then probably fizzle off again. Then again it got some great ratings in November of last year so it's possible it will have another great November (it should with the 3rd exam coming up and Jiriya's in da house).

I'm tired of Cartoon Network's unbelievable shortsightedness when it comes to the audience of their shows! Seriously Betty Cohen's regime wasn't as closed-minded with their shows, they at least gave us adult shows like "TEX AVERY" (adult meaning for a mature and intelligent audience), "Gundam Wing Uncut", and Toonami the Midnight Run (which was aimed at teens and adults). Now CN's current regime only expect the kids to watch cartoon network all day and the adults to watch at night time, instead of creating shows that everybody can enjoy. CN's executives have done an abysmal job of selling the network to advertisers by focusing on the children. I'm sorry if you know that adults or watching Naruto why not advertise products that adults would buy! Afterall teens and adults have their own money, and a hell of alot more money than the kid's allowance money. Wouldn't it make sense to focus on this obvious advantage? It can't be that hard to convince advertisers that adults like cartoons seeing that Adult Swim is a run away success. But the management is too blind to see this fact and continues to say to people who listen that "we are a kids network just like Nickelodeon."

I'm not trying to be rude but CN's management is incompetent and they are working without a plan. They are showing the foremost tell-tale sign of managerial ineptitude: the inability to pay attention to details. They missed a golden oppurtunity to capatalize off a profitable demographic but they blew it because they have shortsighted tunnel vision and a outated notions of an art-form and its audience. Pathetic.

[Sketch]

Now when it comes to having trouble getting adult ads and teen ads in those hours I can understand the difficulties. Still H/H advertising is on most of the day on CN so just bulk up on that in the last hour of PT and maybe get some teen friendly ads if they can and they'd have a good game plan. Prime Time should at least be aimed more specifically at 9-14 by 10PM. A blatant 6-11 show doesn't suffice, not even one tweens, teens and adults might watch. I guess I have to yield to Jeff's statement that Naruto sticks out on CN prime time but if they can't even manage to get that show a weeknight slot then how can it ever really succeed?

CN really ought to dedicate PT to going for a larger audience than they do the rest of the day. Maybe not a drastically larger one but a larger one none the less. There are advertisers out there. While it's said that 12-17 is a hard to reach demo, CN has gotten them for years without any effort.

Jeff said it best in his recent editorial on The X Bridge. Those 6-11 they want now grow up. Then what does CN do? Granted some will watch AS when they're as young as 11 years old but the moral fiber in me says that's nothing CN should promote. I've been saying for years that there should be a middle ground. Sometimes they get close but most of the time they just ignore those viewers. That's shutting out potential viewership in order to attempt to steal away what Nick already has locked up. So locked up that they are now focusing more efforts towards getting older viewers and then keeping them for NAN. This is what CN should do and why they don't can be explained I'm sure but any answer wont feel adequate.

I wouldn't say AS is playing the game much better though. They waste a ton of their space and get mediocre results with anything but Family Guy, Futurama, Robot Chicken and ATHF (there are a few exceptions) and when it comes to anime the only one that ever seems to do well is Inuyasha.

Honestly I think everything was better off when AS was just a block and CN still cared a bit about viewers over 11 years old. And back when there was classics, higher quality originals (not to say some current ones aren't good), and daytime, prime time and overnight efforts that seemed to have more purpose than anything currently going on with CN now we had a channel truely worthy to be called The Cartoon Network.

As Boomerang becomes a semi-CN of the past and CN becomes Turner Kids all I can do is sit back watch the madness ensue and wonder why the hell I still care. Shoot man I can't even sit through all of Toonami anymore (once a week) and that's just sad.

Of course CN doesn't care if I watch and I don't have Nilsen box. But I want to stand up for what left of the good in the network and what has potential none the less. Some would say I'm an idealistic fool and sometimes that's true but I don't care what they think I just know that there could be a better Cartoon Network right now and I wish the folks at CN would figure out how to make it happen.

You can't beat Nick by playing their game you have to make your own. I believe they use to understand that down in Atlanta but now they apparently do not.

[Taylor Karras]

Apparently, Their game can't be beat. Nick will continue to rerun spongebob until the end of time, Therefore resulting in a neverending profit.

Cartoon Network needs to make shows that are funny and smart, They are doing well but they need to improve.

[Sketch]

Funny and smart is what CN use to be. They still have the resources and talent to be that again they just have to let it happen.

[Marinite]

All right, so I couldn't come up with a show on a Disney to draw a fair comparison, since 1) Disney sucks and 2) ergo, I don't watch Disney. Toonami and Adult Swim are really what are keeping the network afloat. You should have used Hannah Montana, it's their highest rated show. So I guess live action shows are what it doesn't have (yet....).

Doesn't Spongebob reruns beat EVERY kids show at that time? I mean it's surprising that kids still watch the same episode over and over again, but then again it's Nick.:shrug: Pretty much. Spongebob, Drake & Josh, and Fairly Odd Parents make up the bulk of the 2-11 demographic (behind American Idol) Meanwhile, Drake & Josh, Ned's Declassified School Survival Guide, Zoey 101, and even Spongebob constantly make the top 30 ratings for the 9-14 demographic (all near the top, right behind American Idol, naturally)

[Sketch]

Avatar Secret of the Fire Nation was the #1 show with 9-14. Teen Titans didn't even make the top 30 for any demographics. Sponge Bob was #1 with 6-11 last week as well.

Naruto ain't dead yet though it made both the top 30 for 12-17 and 9-14.

[Taylor Karras]

Funny and smart is what CN use to be. They still have the resources and talent to be that again they just have to let it happen.

They still have shows that appeal to us, They just need to improve.

[Carlos]

I wouldn't say AS is playing the game much better though. They waste a ton of their space and get mediocre results with anything but Family Guy, Futurama, Robot Chicken and ATHF (there are a few exceptions) and when it comes to anime the only one that ever seems to do well is Inuyasha.

Honestly I think everything was better off when AS was just a block and CN still cared a bit about viewers over 11 years old. And back when there was classics, higher quality originals (not to say some current ones aren't good), and daytime, prime time and overnight efforts that seemed to have more purpose than anything currently going on with CN now we had a channel truely worthy to be called The Cartoon Network.



Well, anime doesn't do well on AS. I mean you can blame some on WS lack of promotion for some shows, but even when they do good promotions, 18-34 still don't watch. An example is Inuyasha Movie 3. Good promo, the promo aired on Sunday(a rarity for anime), and a rerun of Inuyasha beat out the movie. Even Bleach and Trinity Blood have good promos and they got beat on the first week by a 2 AM Futurama and a Inuyasha rerun.

Even when AS was still a block, CN still wasn't that great. Classics were relegated to the late Saturday/early Sunday mornings before AS took back Saturday. And if AS was still a block, they probably be under CN's management. Meaning that AS probably would be held back from doing stuff and maybe no TV-MA.

[Rurouni Kenshin]

I really don't see how CN is going down hill. We have Code Lyoko Season 3 coming, Teen Titans is still on reruns all the time, sure it didn't get a 6th season but seeing as how the show was on a major decline they did us a favor. Naruto is far from being dead, it stills good ratings and that's all that matters. We still have a large number of good shows on the network, the Cartoon Cartoon Show gets an hour now, XS is on a lot and that's a great show. Code Name Kids Next Door is a very good show as well as Fosters and Billy and Mandy and the Ed's. Plus we have DBZ on fridays airing episodes that haven't been seen for 5 years. CN seems like a pretty good channel to me.

[Draft]

I really don't see how CN is going down hill. We have Code Lyoko Season 3 coming, Teen Titans is still on reruns all the time, sure it didn't get a 6th season but seeing as how the show was on a major decline they did us a favor. Naruto is far from being dead, it stills good ratings and that's all that matters. We still have a large number of good shows on the network, the Cartoon Cartoon Show gets an hour now, XS is on a lot and that's a great show. Code Name Kids Next Door is a very good show as well as Fosters and Billy and Mandy and the Ed's. Plus we have DBZ on fridays airing episodes that haven't been seen for 5 years. CN seems like a pretty good channel to me.

I agree with that, CN is not going downhill, its going uphill, though its still ages behind when it was ages ago. Nick will not be topped for a while for most things, same with disney.

What might be a good idea, is converty 9-10.5 to Toonami, Exactly liek this

9.0 Naruto
9.5 Zatch Bell!
10.0 Bobobo-bo-Bo-bobo

That is identical to the current toonami schedule, and probally would do better for ratings

[Anthony C.]

Naruto is far from being dead, it stills good ratings and that's all that matters.

Actually that is not true. Contrary to popular belief ratings is not the only thing that matters to TV network executives, what really matters is ratings in the target demographic. Remember networks make the bulk of their revenue through ads and Cartoon Network promotes their channel to potential advertisers as a kid's network, and thus most of the commercials are aimed towards kids. So it doesn't mean jack to Turner Kid's Network if a bunch of adults are watching the show because the demographic is probably not going to buy the products that are being advertised. Look at what happened to Teen Titans and JLU. They were the two most popular shows on CN when they aired, but the majority of its fans were adults so it was cancelled anyways because it wasn't a big enough success with the kids. However, all of this could have been remedied if they made a real attempt to find advertising that could have appealed to the adult audience.

Also I must disagree: Cartoon Network is in a steep decline. The problems are simple:

1)Jettison of Classic Cartoons
2)Mediocre new series (with the exception of Billy and Mandy and Fosters, I think their new shows aren't worth watching)
3)Destroying Toonami (why can't they give toonami the damn prime time line-up? They show the same shows on prime time all day).
4)A horribly repetitive line-up (this has always been a weakness with Cartoon Network, but over the years the repetitvness has been taken to the extreme)
5)Abandoning their loyal adult audience and foolishyly trying to brand themselves as a kids network

[Freedom Fighter]

I figure 'Pokémon: Battle Frontier' is doing well if they gave it another hour on Sunday afternoons. You don't pick up extra timeslots if your premiere was horrible, you know.

And I've given up comparing Nick's ratings to CN's. They're in different leagues (actually, they probably always have been... it just seems more people are aware of it now). If anything, Nick and Disney Channel should be getting the comparisons.

[Dr.Pepper]

They need more varity in their schedule seriosly.

[Zach]

I've given up on CN. Seriously. I haven't watched it seriously in nearly two years now. I watch newer shows and it makes me want to puke. I watch Adult Swim at night, and that's about it. Toonami doesn't have enough that interests me. One Piece is a mess, and i'd just prefer to read Naruto manga. The Pokemon stuff interests me, but that's about it. Unless CN hires someone that actually knows how to pull the shots, I suspect that it will continue to be dead.

On a side note, it's interesting to point out many of CN's classics have moved to Boomerang. I watch Boomerang far more than I do CN because of the old Cartoon Cartoons on there. Let's face it. Boomerang is now CN 2. All the good shows are getting dumped into the channel.

[Wanted]

I've given up on CN. Seriously. I haven't watched it seriously in nearly two years now. I watch newer shows and it makes me want to puke.Other than a few Ed, Edd n' Eddy repeats in August, I haven't found myself able to watch the network regularly since February 2005. Sure, I might have missed a few arcs (or the whole series) of shows like IGPX, Naruto, Fullmetal Alchemist, Teen Titans, or Code Lyoko, but I've found that I don't really need the Cartoon Network. Everyone on board says it's not up to par, and I have no reason to doubt that. Everyone's reasoning is "What have you done for me lately?"

You cancelled Teen Titans? "Foolish."

However, as for being at a crossroads, Cartoon Network has missed opportunity after opportunity to strike gold. Let's not talk about how they dropped the ball with marketing.

[Kagetsu]

At this point, with the loss of Oban, Witch, and Kim Possible, CN is the only animation I have other than Avatar tLA on tv. Nick is a kids channel other than Avatar. Want some chance for anime, Europe animation and at least a few funny shows that don't make you want to retch,. CN is the only chance for it.
They need more varity in their schedule seriosly. This is what we want more than anything. The last thing we need is more SpongeBobesq shows to fill the air with easy basic laughs. Animation can be so much more. Live action (LASit) is such an inane waste of time, but is so easy that it's very tempting. With WB and Jetix/Disney no longer offering decent shows for regular viewers to watch, CN has a huge market opening Of which to take advantage. Ihope they try and not follow the idea of "cheap and simple".

[J'onn J'onzz]

All I really watch these days is Toonami, DBZ reruns on Friday nights, and [adult swim] anime... It's rather sad really.

[Dudley]

Right now KND and Ed Edd n Eddy are the only real cool shows on the channel. I guess Billy & Mandy and Foster's are sorta cool. Those are ther only shows I look forward to seeing. Adding Pokemon Battle Frontier and minus Fosters