Airline Crash in Lexigton KY, Kills 49...

[tucsoncoyote]

Related Link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14540419/

Well I heard this news today on most of the local cable channels, and as I was sitting there I pulled up some data on this airport and I sat there wondering and scratching my head on this..and it's rather an odd question..

How on earth could a trained pilot and Co Pilot with thousands of hours of flight time, End up taking off on the wrong Runway?

Accidents like this don't happen very often.. In fact the last crash of an airliner was over 4 years ago. So by statistics, you figure it was bound to happen. but taking off from the wrong Runway? That's very uncommon.. Sure an Engine fire maybe, or maybe a forgotten item on a check list.. but ending up on a runway that's too short to even take off on? Inconceivable..

But I then Discussed this with my roomate (Whos a flight simulator pilot like myself, and in fact I even pulled up the airport image and looked at this issue.

Here's a diagram of the Airport :


http://www.flttrack.com/AirportDiagrams/KLEXapt.jpg


Now the plane in question is a Bombardier Canadair Regional Jet 200 or 700 series (A CRJ 200 or a CRJ 700 as we call it in Flight simulations), and the average length needed for one of these jets to get airborne is roughly 5900 feet.

Yet in this case the airplane somehome got to Runway 8-26 (which is 3500 feet Long) and tried to take off from there. But the correct Runway this plane should have taken off from is from Runway 4-22 which is 7000 feet long. (More then enough room to take off from and still have 1000 feet of runway left over to stop one of these jets in case of a Takeoff emergency (Such as Getting up to speed or a tire blow out or engine fire).

I even went over the weather data for that time and there was no low visibility it was clear no clouds, and very light winds. but only one runway was lighted at the time (4-22) and that (8-26) was under some repairs for it's lighting and had it's lights shut off.

So how on earth did a Plane that requires 5900 feet of Runway to take off end up on runway that wasn't lighted, and yet was only half it's size?

I'm starting to think there was some pilot error here or maybe some controller misdirection, (as this was early in the morning and there was only 1 tower control operator in the tower at the time. (And considering it's early in the morning, Traffic at this airport would be very light.. So there would be very little chance for some misdirection, but until they get all the data, The FAA is in the dark on this one. also what do you think could have been the Cause of the crash?

Thoughts?

:coyote:

[sun]

My prayers and wishes for support go out to the families of those affected..
...........................................................Stuart

[RayChuang]

The FAA will likely look at signs and taxiway markings at the airport to see if it could cause the pilot to end up on the wrong runway. This is a MAJOR issue that has caused problems in the past and is why the ICAO is working on a standard for signage and runway markings to prevent such unforunate tragedies in the future. Indeed, on commercial airliners delivered in the last 8-10 years, they have a system based on GPS that can identify where the airplane is at an airport with an accuracy of around 20 feet.

[Lord Dalek]

I wouldn't be surprised if the families of the victims sue Delta for every penny their worth.

[tucsoncoyote]

The FAA will likely look at signs and taxiway markings at the airport to see if it could cause the pilot to end up on the wrong runway. This is a MAJOR issue that has caused problems in the past and is why the ICAO is working on a standard for signage and runway markings to prevent such unforunate tragedies in the future. Indeed, on commercial airliners delivered in the last 8-10 years, they have a system based on GPS that can identify where the airplane is at an airport with an accuracy of around 20 feet.

Very good points Ray, after all, Most of the smaller Non-international Airports (for Example Marana Northwest Regional here in Tucson (KAVQ) and Ryan Field (KRYN) here in Tucson have very little if not poor sign markings, and I suspect Bluegrass Airport (KLEX) also has similar Problems. What ICAO Needs to do is to get a standard set and get things rolling so that a plane that is taking off is never placed on a Short Runway. I'm still surprised that even if the pilot and co-pilot have charts and airport diagrams with them, they should have known that 8-26 was never the intended takeoff runway (in fact some sources are now saying that during the cockpit discussion the pilot and Co-pilot never mentioned about 8-26 in their conversations.. yet somehow ended up on the wrong Runway for take off.

As for GPS, I also agree here as well. This was a Canadair Regional Jet, (and these planes including the later models) do have GPS Systems on board with the accuracy discribed and in fact the error would have been only 20 or so feet like you suggested. but still it boggles my mind why this plane still ended up on the shorter runway even when the pilot and co-pilot never discussed the issue all the while through their conversation.. (and in fact this is why I say it's very inconceivable (also I found out that the CRJ really needs just 5000 feet to take off and 8-26 as you can see is still 1500 feet too short to take off on.. so again I state.. why on earth did these experienced pilots with thousands of flight hours under their belt, end up in the wrong place for a takeoff? Even if they had GPS they would have noticed something amiss.


I wouldn't be surprised if the families of the victims sue Delta for every penny their worth.

Well you forget Lord Dalek, if these people do sue the airline company, expect either one of two things: 1) the price of Airline Tickets will go up, or in Delta's case 2) the Threat of the company having to file bankruptcy suddenly becomes very high, and in fact in Delta's case they've been on the edge of bankruptcy a number of times.. I think if this does happen (as you suggest, well then, there will be one less major carrier to get you around the US let alone the world.

:coyote:

[Rook]

my biggest concern about this is that the runways intersect instead of running parallel to each other. and from that those pictures on the site i didnt see any numbers on the runways at all.


The crash marks the end of what has been called the “safest period in aviation history” in the United States. There has not been a major crash since Nov. 12, 2001, when American Airlines Flight 587 plunged into a residential neighborhood in Queens, N.Y., killing 265 people, including five on the ground.
ouch

[tucsoncoyote]

my biggest concern about this is that the runways intersect instead of running parallel to each other. and from that those pictures on the site i didnt see any numbers on the runways at all.

Actually there are Numbers on the Runways (at each end of the runways, and in normal Takeoff procedures you taxi to the far end of the runway where the numbers are.. also signs along the taxiways and Runways should be there to guide the plane to the proper runway..

But what should have been obvious here is that at the time, only one runway was lighted (Runway 4-22 , The longer of the Two runways), and these pilots should have known that by checking their compasses they could have found out that their alignment would have been wrong. (22 is at a heading of 219 degrees 26 would have been at 269 degrees. (now unless they didn't check their compasses and weren't paying attention, this disaster shouldn't have happened.. (After all I was listening to the news today to a guy who's a lawyer and private pilot and he stated that always before you take off you make sure you're on the right runway.

but as for this? It's hard to imagine these two experienced pilots being that inept.

:coyote:

[Dr. OneWay]

This is pretty bad, for both the families and Delta. I would hate to be on that plane. . . well, I would be dead :(

[One Radical Dude]

I agree with tc, filing a lawsut against Delta Air Lines would make things worse for the airline industry, and increase fares even more -- with the possibility of potentially losing an airline carrier and nearly 50,000 people would be out of jobs. Also, no amount of money would make up for the lost lives of those that were killed in the accident. My thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and family members of the passengers and crew members that were on board.

[tucsoncoyote]

I agree with tc, filing a lawsut against Delta Air Lines would make things worse for the airline industry, and increase fares even more -- with the possibility of potentially losing an airline carrier and nearly 50,000 people would be out of jobs. Also, no amount of money would make up for the lost lives of those that were killed in the accident. My thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and family members of the passengers and crew members that were on board.

Related Link: http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneurs/feeds/ap/2006/08/30/ap2984253.html

That's a very good point there One Radical Dude, and in fact it's now looking like the investigation is now looking more at the Air Traffic Controller in the tower end of this crash rather then the pilot and co pilot.

First off the FAA sets rules and Regulations for their workers to work (and this includes Air Traffic Controllers). But what might have been the danger and the problem is that at that particular Airport, there was just 1 controller at the airport tower (where FAA rules require a minimum of 2) on the morning of the accident, and that the night before this shift, the Controller got only two hours of sleep.

so now it's looking like the blame for this accident is in fact going from the crew of the crashed plane to that of the controller in the tower...

Your thoughts now?
:coyote:

[Kagetsu]

But what might have been the danger and the problem is that at that particular Airport, there was just 1 controller at the airport tower (where FAA rules require a minimum of 2)

:coyote: Do they?. My part 141 regs are shakey, but I'm fairly sure that a small air carrier can operate at an airport as long as they can receive visiblity and altitude pressure at the airport. Our local commuters operate after the tower is closed but receive their settings from somewhere else on the airport. I could dig out my FAR's later. (added) I see, it's a new directive, that may not be under 141. Does that small an airport have radar operations? Most don't.

This kind of accident is actively being countered by FAA and NTSB by up grading airport markings and lighting and even closing and redirecting taxiways at airports with incidents. They also have advisory circulars and special consideration for pilot refresher courses (general aviation perspective). It's been a top priority for some time now. It's amazingly easy to get lost on an airport at night. The NTSB usually finds that these are caused by a series of small mistakes that add together.

[Lord Dalek]

Looks like I was right, the first lawsuit (http://www.wkyt.com/Global/story.asp?S=5356984) has been filed. This is a disgusting mess and those families have ever right to sue Comair for mishandling the situation completely. If not only for the error itself, but also its pisspoor treatment of the families (they've only just gotten the names of the bodies). When you are about 50 miles up the road from this fiasco it gives you a completely different perspective.

[ToxicOne]

My thoughts and prayers go out to the faimlies of those who lost loved ones on that flight.

[tucsoncoyote]

Do they?. My part 141 regs are shakey, but I'm fairly sure that a small air carrier can operate at an airport as long as they can receive visiblity and altitude pressure at the airport. Our local commuters operate after the tower is closed but receive their settings from somewhere else on the airport. I could dig out my FAR's later. (added) I see, it's a new directive, that may not be under 141. Does that small an airport have radar operations? Most don't.

This kind of accident is actively being countered by FAA and NTSB by up grading airport markings and lighting and even closing and redirecting taxiways at airports with incidents. They also have advisory circulars and special consideration for pilot refresher courses (general aviation perspective). It's been a top priority for some time now. It's amazingly easy to get lost on an airport at night. The NTSB usually finds that these are caused by a series of small mistakes that add together.

First off, The Accident happened early in the morning (Just before Sunrise) and yes maybe the lighting visibilty was low. But I think the Issue here is perhaps not the pilots getting lost (or maybe it is) but the issue also here is the fact that you only had 1 controller in the tower rather then the minimum 2 that are required. That plus the fact that the controller on duty (A 17 year veteran I might add), only had 2 hours of sleep before going on shift.

I think in this case it could be considered a "Double" Error as first off the Pilots got on the Wrong Runway and failed to check their Instruments, and second, the Controller in the tower failed to recognize the fact that maybe the plane was indeed on the wrong runway (But what surprises me is that perhaps the Controller a 17 year veteran) may have been suffering from lack of sleep and in fact he could have been not paying attention.

So it comes down to either that the pilot and co-pilot failed to recognize to check the instruments, or that the Controller is overworked (In fact in today's Local Paper (The Arizona Daily Star) controllers were complaining of being "Overworked". if this is the case, then maybe it's time to hire more controllers and train them properly.


Looks like I was right, the first lawsuit (http://www.wkyt.com/Global/story.asp?S=5356984) has been filed. This is a disgusting mess and those families have ever right to sue Comair for mishandling the situation completely. If not only for the error itself, but also its pisspoor treatment of the families (they've only just gotten the names of the bodies). When you are about 50 miles up the road from this fiasco it gives you a completely different perspective.

While having an accident at a small airport (Such as Bluegrass International in Lexington), might be more common ending up on the wrong runway has occurred at much larger airports.. The last two incidents of this type have occurred at airports in Mexico city and in Los Angeles (Yes KLAX),

The Real suprise is that there are a lot of Airports that are rated by pilots gives certain airports different "Star" Ratings (Orange, Red and Black),

KLAX is a notorious Black star airport due to the reason that you have an approach over the ocean and you are as some pilots suggest are descending into a "Black Hole". Washington DC Reagan International (KDCA) is black star as well due to it's difficult River Approach.

Now Lexington has no Real hazard rating Unlike some of the others but it makes you wonder if there was more controllers in the tower could this accident have been prevented?
:coyote:

[Kagetsu]

if this is the case, then maybe it's time to hire more controllers and train them properly. ATC is not the final authority, dispite what the public perceives. Once the pilot in comand(PIC) says "roger" it's his responsibility. If the controler was not dealing with radar, they aren't required to have two controllers. They lost the "double check" that prevents incidents from becoming accidents. But in the end, it's down to the flight crew.

"The Agenda" wants to blame the controllers because that is the government. They can be forced to add controllers to the system and create more regulations. Pilot error can't do that. The flight crew made a big mistake,,, hard to say why at this point. The point seems to be can more people and money stop this, no. It can help prevent it, but so can ending all flights. That's not going to happen either.

[tucsoncoyote]

ATC is not the final autority, dispite what the public perceaves. once the pilot in comand(PIC) says "roger" it's his responsibility. Anything I've ever dealt with ATC (air traffic control) always ended with them saying "what are your intentions". If the controler was not deealing with radar, they aren't required to have two controllers. They lost the "double check" that prevents incidents from becoming accidents. But in the end, it's down to the flight crew.

"The Agenda" wants to to blame the controllers because that is the government. They can be forced to to add controllers to the system and create more regulations. Pilot error can't do that. The flight crew made a big mistake... hard to say why at this point.


I tend to agree. but then I have to ask this: You have a "Double Check" also inside the cockpit, (The Pilot and the Co-pilot), and it seems both the pilot and co-pilot failed to check their Compass heading (If the compass was working properly), and they still started a Takeoff on a runway that was well over 1500 feet too short. And in fact what about Airport Charts? I mean I just posted up in the initial post, part of an aiport diagram that anyone can download and print out. Also some places like www.airnav.com (http://www.airnav.com) does have inromation as well. After all let's say that the controller was innocent here, then it makes the double check of the PIC and his associate culpable for the failure of what happened. so in the end maybe it was one .. maybe it was both, but until the "Tell of the Tape" (On the black box and the Control Tower Tapes), we won't know the absolute truth about this. but If Comair is hiding facts then they should be held culpable as well. After all communications and directions broke down, and in fact it bothers me that this accident shouldn't have happened.. but it still did..

Nuff Said.

:coyote:

[Kagetsu]

I think the thing that bugs me the most about all the news people, is I get this feeling "it shouldn't have happened, and changes must be made for it to never happen again". When in fact there have been many changes ongoing to stop this from happening at US airports. What I've heard, but not certian if it's all true, the co-pilot was operating the plane. This makes sense because the SOP is the pilot flies the plane while the co-pilot handles the radio communication, sets the navigation systems, receives IFR route clearence, and communicates to the company their statis of the flight,,, mostly that they are airbourne. When the co-pilot is to get flight time, he does all this and operates the plane while the pilot "monitors". That's a heck of a workload. The cockpit recorder is said to have inconsequencial conversations. I think that means random talk,,, a further distraction. They missed that there were no center line lights or touchdown area lights on their runway,,, how they missed that is beyond me, they should have been expecting to see a runway lit up like a Christmas tree. A good practice is to check your heading at "position and hold" just to be sure the (DG) directional gyro is set to the proper heading, but especially in complex aircraft, I've never seen anyone other than an instructor give it more than a passing glance. Even in little birds, you're mostly interested in the engine instruments and watching for rotation airspeed. In todays "glass panels", everything is in basically the same spot. There should have been several numbers saying "no". Somehow they missed everything. I wonder at what point in the take off roll, someone said "uhoh",,, I would expect it to be as the rolled over the runway they should have been on.

That airport is listed as having Airport Surveillance Radar, so by their directive, they should have had two people. That was a big mistake.

I wonder if ANYone was even awake. :sad:

[tucsoncoyote]

I wonder if ANYone was even awake. :sad:

Actually I think This article I Found on MSNBC.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14574723/)might give the key to the crash.

Apparently according to this report, it seems that the Air Traffic Controller (The Only one in the tower I might add), had his back to the runway while he was doing some "Administrative duties."

"Administrative Duties?" Okay Kagetsu this one is right up you alley. After all if this Controller had his back doing things instead of watching the aircraft in question, this again falls back on his shoulders squarely. and it also suggests if this is the case, then maybe just maybe, this is why the FAA has 2 people in the control towers at other airports.

But then my own roommate suggested that maybe the problem here doesn't lie with the controller but rather the owners of the airport (Maybe all they could afford is one controller?) If this is the case then this would be rather interesting to see an airport be closed or threatened to be shut down due to "Cost Cutting " Procedures to save money..

and this brings up an issue I've always had a beef about. if you take shortcuts on anything and try to save money, then disasters are bound to happen.

but There's one piece of proof that's hard to miss. A controller with his back to the airplane in question (Considering it's the only plane taking off at the time.

:coyote:

[Kagetsu]

No, I'm fairly sure controllers are paid through the FAA/NTSB and it would most likely be their choice as to how many to staff the tower with. It's a busy airport, but it doesn't sound busy if he went to "Admin duties". The plane was probably at "Hold Short" doing the run up and pretakeoff check. The controller should have seen they were holding at the wrong runway. Then the plane would have needed to receive clear for takeoff, the controller should have seen them again. Then he would need to contact them again shortly after they were airbourne to tell them to contact either Departure control or Center and frequency to use. Even if it's himself again, they have to change frequencies. I believe the star on the diagram is the CT and it's on the same side of the field. How he could do all that and turn his back to do paper work is unbelievable.

The two people directive seems to hinge on the radar. This airport has listed an ASR approach, so I'm guessing the radar is in the tower. Even though ASR approaches aren't used very often because the ILS (Instrument Landing System) is more accurate and can be linked directly to the autopilot. If a controller is giving radar vectors for approach or departure, there would have to be two people. Even if they didn't expect to have much traffic, I never thought they would leave the radar unmanned.

[tucsoncoyote]

No, I'm fairly sure controllers are paid through the FAA/NTSB and it would most likely be their choice as to how many to staff the tower with. It's a busy airport, but it doesn't sound busy if he went to "Admin duties". The plane was probably at "Hold Short" doing the run up and pretakeoff check. The controller should have seen they were holding at the wrong runway. Then the plane would have needed to receive clear for takeoff, the controller should have seen them again. Then he would need to contact them again shortly after they were airbourne to tell them to contact either Departure control or Center and frequency to use. Even if it's himself again, they have to change frequencies. I believe the star on the diagram is the CT and it's on the same side of the field. How he could do all that and turn his back to do paper work is unbelievable.

The two people directive seems to hinge on the radar. This airport has listed an ASR approach, so I'm guessing the radar is in the tower. Even though ASR approaches aren't used very often because the ILS (Instrument Landing System) is more accurate and can be linked directly to the autopilot. If a controller is giving radar vectors for approach or departure, there would have to be two people. Even if they didn't expect to have much traffic, I never thought they would leave the radar unmanned.

Well Kagetsu, this is exactly my point. In fact if you look at the article I did put out there you see it's not only Lexington KY that has this problem. According to the FAA there should be fully staffed Control towers and there is a video on MSNBC.com that says that a lot of Airport Control towers are in fact Understaffed (For Example Dallas Fort-Worth International (KDFW) is supposed to have a staff of 59 air controllers at the ready. and they have only 48. At other airports Including Major Airports (Like Miami (KMIA), and Las Vegas (KLAS), all these airports are undermanned or Severely Undermanned.

and In this case you are right, The Control Tower is where the Star is in the Diagram, and I find it that if instead of 1 controller there were 2, well then I still think the accident could have been prevented. So in a way, this accident would probably not have happened if there had been a "Second Pair" of Eyes in the Tower.

but I've seen that most accidents (Either Take off and Landing are usually caused by either Weather Conditions, or Pilot Misjudgement or Controller Error In fact Mechanical failure is the next Dangerous thing to the afforemented items.

so in short, an accident like this should really be low on the priority. And think about this. The worst Accident which killed the Most People (500+ People died when 2 747's collided in Tenneriffe, In the Canary Islands), this accident was a combination of 2 factors.. Weather and Controller Miscommunication, compounded by Pilot Misjudgement.

But what the weather was? This could have been an issue as well.

:coyote: