A philisophical query for atheists

[EinBebop]

I know in years past I've been known for trying to start debates for the sake of debating (and it probably will occur in this thread anyway :)) but I'm really just looking for opinions here. Looking for different points of view, or quotes from philosophers, religions, or cartoon characters.

So I was contemplating the concept of guilt, and right and wrong. Whether it's origin is divine, genetic, or social... all humans seem to have a concept of right and wrong, and with it the inability to live up to their own standards. Obviously, within Christianity we explain this by our concept of sin. How do the non-Christians out there feel about this?

[sun]

I know in years past I've been known for trying to start debates for the sake of debating (and it probably will occur in this thread anyway :)) but I'm really just looking for opinions here. Looking for different points of view, or quotes from philosophers, religions, or cartoon characters.

So I was contemplating the concept of guilt, and right and wrong. Whether it's origin is divine, genetic, or social... all humans seem to have a concept of right and wrong, and with it the inability to live up to their own standards. Obviously, within Christianity we explain this by our concept of sin. How do the non-Christians out there feel about this?
Many atheists know right from wrong..One does not need to believe in any kind of higher power for ethical beliefs..You can grow up with ethical parents..
They do not need to believe in anything in terms of faith..
......This is right, this is wrong...Don't hurt your neigbor, it is wrong..The kid learns, that you do not need to hurt people...
......Every other religion, has its own version..
......So called "believers." still shade "right and wrong." to what they want to believe..A philsophical discussion on this could go for ever..with definitions of exactly what you mean, by "right and wrong"..
......Unfortunately, once a person goes down a certain path of evil, it is often impossible to change their minds, without some kind of intervention, when the person realizes that he is wrong..Usually a life threatening event..They wake up, and say.."You know, I was wrong, I must change"..
...Wether or not you have religous faith, often does not even occur until that event happens..Whatever it is..For some, it never happens..they never get out of the fog, of being wrong, and even though they had religious beliefs at one time, they abandon them, the fog stays, and they often pay the ultimate price for their wrong.(often they do not pay that price) .for example..drug overdoses that result in death.
..The person may have been religious at one time..but wrong took over right, and wrong won....Happens all the time, in all religions, and even those without..And often those without, act more rightous, than those with. Oh boy...that is just too much..:o..............Back to the bookrack, or toon shelf and play some funny toons.....Stuart

[Zubby]

I consider myself an athiest (for years, I called myself agnostic, but changed when I realized that there really was no doubt in my mind about god not existing). One of the wonderful, empowering aspects of athiesm is that we get to choose our own moral code.
Where does that code come from? It comes from the realization that our actions effect others, and therefore the correct action is one that does the least possible harm. That is very similar to the teachings of many religions. Most of them do not advocate harming others. But, what is important here is that my moral code is based on my ability to reason, not on a vague and/or abstract notion of punishment or retrubution in an afterlife. Harming others is unconscionable not because I fear Hell. It is unconscionable because I do not want to be responsible for others' suffering.
Most of the athiests I have known (at least the ones who truly do not believe in a higher power) are highly moral people for exactly the reason I just wrote about. In daily life, it means thinking things through and using reason before taking action. It takes a great deal of responsibilty to do so consistently, but it builds good moral charecter.

[Kagetsu]

Though I still consider myself a Christian,

Concepts of right/wrong are social. We do it to fit in with others. Some very wrong things can be done by right thinking people if the others areound them feel it's okay and it's built slowly enough to nullify a natural revulsion. Many studys of human behavior have shown that the nearly anyone can be made to do very cruel things when they 're conditioned to it. and people are most likely to do sleezy things when they aren't known by the people around them.

[Sr.Infierno]

This isn't really an answer to the question, but I've got another one I've been wondering for some time: If you don't believe in any god, but you're spiritual and believe in the afterlife through scientific means, are you still an atheist or what?

But anyway, I follow many Biblical morals even if I don't believe in the mythological part of it.

[Scirel]

This isn't really an answer to the question, but I've got another one I've been wondering for some time: If you don't believe in any god, but you're spiritual and believe in the afterlife through scientific means, are you still an atheist or what?

But anyway, I follow many Biblical morals even if I don't believe in the mythological part of it.

Those are basically my beliefs, except that I do believe in god in a scientific way and I do consider myself a christian since I believe in Jesus and the major moral points of the bible.

the biggest question I have is "What is god exactly", and it is a question I love to think about.

Anyway, my sister is an atheist, and this, what OTG said, is the basic moral reasoning for atheists, which does make sense if one does not believe in god.

Where does that code come from? It comes from the realization that our actions effect others, and therefore the correct action is one that does the least possible harm. That is very similar to the teachings of many religions. Most of them do not advocate harming others. But, what is important here is that my moral code is based on my ability to reason, not on a vague and/or abstract notion of punishment or retrubution in an afterlife. Harming others is unconscionable not because I fear Hell. It is unconscionable because I do not want to be responsible for others' suffering.

In other words, Atheists believe in "good for goodness sake", as the song goes, and not any other reason.

[Sr.Infierno]

the biggest question I have is "What is god exactly", and it is a question I love to think about.


Well, an idea I've been tossing around lately is pantheism (God is the total sum of everything in the universe and we're all part of it), but I can't find ANYONE who follows this or takes it seriously.

[Scirel]

Well, an idea I've been tossing around lately is pantheism (God is the total sum of everything in the universe and we're all part of it), but I can't find ANYONE who follows this or takes it seriously.

That's an interesting one I haven`t heard before.

One I like to think about is that god is the sum of intelligence and wisdom gathered by life in the universe throught time. a civilization so advanced in the future, gathered into an omniscient, benevolent metabeing and with high morals possibly in the human future, that it can protect and guide its own past. Basically god would be the end result of all human/intelligent achievement and reasoning for all time. Our souls would be parts of this, each one guided to be a step towards god. Since the goal of many relgions is being with god, so I see this as a connection. naturally this is just random speculation ^_^.

[Stewie]

So I was contemplating the concept of guilt, and right and wrong. Whether it's origin is divine, genetic, or social... all humans seem to have a concept of right and wrong, and with it the inability to live up to their own standards. Obviously, within Christianity we explain this by our concept of sin. How do the non-Christians out there feel about this?The episode of 30 Days that aired on Wednesday dealt with this. (If you aren't watching, you should be. It's not what you think.) An atheist woman lived with a family of Christians for 30 Days. It got me thinking about this exact subject. I know that I feel that certain actions/ideas are right or wrong. But why do I feel that way? "My gut tells me" isn't an answer. It is the answer, but it's not.

I think it's lack of understanding about this issue that has left me feeling excluded from religion and professed sprituality. The idea that God or The Bible determines what is right or wrong never worked for me. It just didn't feel right. It didn't make any sense. Maybe just slightly more than The Flying Spaghetti Monster anyway.
It's not just the ambiguity in determining what The Bible/Jesus/God thinks I should do (which alone makes me question the whole thing). But rather that my "gut feeling" doesn't correspond with what I've been taught by proclaimed authorities in those areas.

So, my "gut" not agreeing with The Church(es), leaves me feeling like The Church and the idea of sin is worthless (to me, at least). In a way, it's one of the Pillars of my beliefs. Which is, that the correct answer isn't (A). But it could be (B) (C) or (D). And please God, don't let this be one of those tests with an (E)*. I've just about decided that "sin" is too simple an explanation for it. And it's used as a tool for evil purposes just as easily as for good ones.

But I'm discovering that my disbelief has less of an explanation than the beliefs that I have rejected. And I can't really explain why I feel the way I do. If we did a psycho-analysis, we'd probably find that my mom had/has a lot to do with it. And sure, the rest of my family, and my friends, and media influences. That kind of stuff usually explains personality/political beliefs/etc.
But at this point, I really don't know. In a way, I'm just going on blind-faith. I'm assuming that my way of thinking is based on something worthwhile. But rather than describe it as faith, I think that I just haven't answered the question. I haven't stopped asking it.

*None of the Above.

[EinBebop]

I appreciate all the responses, but noone's really answered the question I'm wondering about, so I'll try restate it more clearly:

Everyone has a sense of right and wrong. Everyone does wrong anyway. Why (from any non-Christian perspective) do we not have the ability to consistently follow our own moral codes?

[Zubby]

I appreciate all the responses, but noone's really answered the question I'm wondering about, so I'll try restate it more clearly:

Everyone has a sense of right and wrong. Everyone does wrong anyway. Why (from any non-Christian perspective) do we not have the ability to consistently follow our own moral codes?

Because we are only human.

[Stewie]

I know in years past I've been known for trying to start debates for the sake of debating (and it probably will occur in this thread anyway :)) but I'm really just looking for opinions here. Looking for different points of view, or quotes from philosophers, religions, or cartoon characters.

So I was contemplating the concept of guilt, and right and wrong. Whether it's origin is divine, genetic, or social... all humans seem to have a concept of right and wrong, and with it the inability to live up to their own standards. Obviously, within Christianity we explain this by our concept of sin. How do the non-Christians out there feel about this?I read everything but that part of that sentence.

This question is much simpler. It's sin for us too. We just don't call it that.

We (the me that I speak for) see sin as another way of describing inherent human fallability. To me, that's kind of like asking why the sky is blue as opposed to green. (Let's forget that it is different colors in different places at different times)
It's just the way it is.

We do have the ability to "live up to our own standards". Theoretically. But practically, we don't do it.
But really, it's probably a good thing that we make mistakes. That's how we learn. By that logic, sin is what separates us from (makes us better than) the animals.

[sun]

Because we are only human.

I agree with Zubby completely..After Ein rephrased his question, it became much clearer...my compliments to Zubby...The minute I saw the question in a simplier form..that is what I was going to write...There is no more perfect answer...

[The Guitar Slayer]

Catholic, but I know a few atheists, including my sibling.

Many atheists have had a problem with the religion they were raised with. It's only now that we're getting atheist children, since their parents were the youth involved in the disenchantment period of the early 1990s. Many atheists view religion as having large problems concerning hypocrisy (the Catholic Church) or literal interpretations of the Bible being silly (most Protestant/non-Catholic churches; Catholicism advocates contextual interpretations and suggests that some of the more outlandish stories [Jonah, Genesis] were parables or fables used to teach lessons).

The Golden Rule is universal, however. It's in every religion, from Christianity to the tribal religions in Africa. And it stands to reason and logic, which most atheists use to make decisions as opposed to religious precepts, that if you don't do bad stuff to other people, they won't do bad stuff to you. The sense of guilt an atheist feel could come from being a hypocrite or just doing something bad to someone. Going against your own views or seeing the effects of harm on someone else does not make a person feel good (unless you hate the guy and he deserves it, but every person has that aspect to him/her).

[purplehairedwonder]

Because we are only human.
I concur.

And I agree with The Guitar Slayer; the Golden Rule is a universal. As an atheist, I don't fear Hell or whatever as a consequence of my actions, but I'm more concerned with the direct effect they are having on others around me. I don't like seeing people hurt, so I don't try to hurt them. It happens inadvertantly, but that's because we're human.

[peacebyanymeans]

So I was contemplating the concept of guilt, and right and wrong. Whether it's origin is divine, genetic, or social... all humans seem to have a concept of right and wrong, and with it the inability to live up to their own standards. Obviously, within Christianity we explain this by our concept of sin. How do the non-Christians out there feel about this?
Consious and morals. I don't need a higher being keeping me in check and saying what I can and cannot do, I can do that myself.
For example, I know not to hurt people, because I would not like that happen to me.
Edit: Oh, that wasn't your question... well, some people can have an inability because they are human, and being human is a really strange and random life.

[SilentBat18]

hmm well i wouldnt call myself an aethiest but i do believe that there are some things in my religion (Islam) that really prove pointless. what i believe is that God is a being there to give humans a sense of hope when all is lost. but telling me what to do, well it doesnt make any sense. some rules make sense: like killing and stealing are wrong. those set boundaries, the rest are up to the human psych and how they were raised by society and parents.

but not holding the holy Qor'an by the left hand or, i dont know, not eating pork seem really ridiculous. the book seems to be getting more respect that the being the wrote it. the holy Qor'an its not the book that is God you know, its just a book with prayers in it BY God. there is no need to worship the book, its God who deserves the worship, i guess.... after all He is the one who wrote it. and pork? i mean back in the day, pork carried diseases and what not (thats the reason why it isnt supposed to be eaten) but nowadays i think were pretty advanced not get the same diseases.

and last but not least, and i hear this often, that God anly helps those who help themselves. uuuuumm so technically you're doing ur own work and helping yourself with the thought of God in the back of your head... what i'm trying to say is that God is only there to give hope when there's nothing else that will. and maybe sometimes a miracle or two will happen just to keep that hope alive. voila! and that's that.