Playstation 3 Beyond the Box

[Jimmy 345]

Playstation 3 beyond the Box was held today. While last weeks Playstation 3s conference focused on hardware this one focus on games

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/697/697658p1.html

Still one problem it says lots of game trailers were displayed but at the moment none are online. God of War 2 was shown. While I have no doubt the gameplay will rock I am still pissed it is going to Playstation 2 only.

[Strollymonster]

The most surprising thing I noted is that the PS3 is going to be region-free for games, meaning import games will be much less of a pain to play over here...good for fans of anime games and obscure titles!

I wonder, will it only be for PS3 games or will it also work for PS2/1 games?

[Jimmy 345]

My favorite announcement was a Playstation 3 Ratchet and Clank game. I am a big fan of the series on the Playstation 2 so I am sure the Playstation 3 game will rock.

Apparently it will also release in Asia this November. With all honesty with 3 million units this year worldwide it looks like we are looking forward to another big console shortage.

Still no word on price. Thats pretty much it until E3. Hopefully there we will get official pricing and exact release dates. Sony has confirmed playable Playstation 3 demos for this years E3.

[Dark Fact]

I'm looking forward to Devil May Cry 4 and Tekken 6 myself. Glad the system is region-free! Now maybe we can import our dating sims in peace!

[Artimus Gigan]

Now maybe we can import our dating sims in peace!http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/00pie/indeed.jpg


I just hope they continue to have English Language Options...because they seem to have no problem with awkward social situations involing people who are from outside Japan...yet they speak fluent Japanese...and are probably from Montanna

[Jimmy 345]

Another thing of note is Insomniac being happy about the extra storage of Blu-Ray. Many have said that only Japanese devolopers with lots of prerendered cut scenes need the extra space but here a devoloper that has always used real time cut scenes apparently will use the extra storage.

[Noukon]

Another thing of note is Insomniac being happy about the extra storage of Blu-Ray. Many have said that only Japanese devolopers with lots of prerendered cut scenes need the extra space but here a devoloper that has always used real time cut scenes apparently will use the extra storage.

I can't see for what. Besides audio and video content, there is absolutely no need for that much storage, even for PS3 games. Maybe they're just propping up the format to be friendly with Sony.

My friends who went to GDC were completely underwhelmed by the keynote (and some of them are huge Sony fans). Sony really needs to step up; the PS3 hardware is floundering far worse than most people realize.

[Captain Harlock]

Everything sounds pretty good for now, let's just see it be executed well. Region free is a good thing for those who like to import and such, but I couldn't care less. Controller redesign = win. Despite not holding the boomerang controller, I'm glad that they're reworking it. I look foreward to the next announcements, hopefully earlier than E3.

[Jimmy 345]

I can't see for what. Besides audio and video content, there is absolutely no need for that much storage, even for PS3 games. Maybe they're just propping up the format to be friendly with Sony.

My friends who went to GDC were completely underwhelmed by the keynote (and some of them are huge Sony fans). Sony really needs to step up; the PS3 hardware is floundering far worse than most people realize.

DVDs don't have enough stoarge for next generation games. Many devolopers have complained about that lack of blue laser discs for the Xbox 360. To storage a lengthy game at maxed out graphics and sound quality is impossible for a DVD.

[Noukon]

DVDs don't have enough stoarge for next generation games. Many devolopers have complained about that lack of blue laser discs for the Xbox 360. To storage a lengthy game at maxed out graphics and sound quality is impossible for a DVD.

What developers, exactly? Most 360 games easily fit on DVD,

[Tash]

The most surprising thing I noted is that the PS3 is going to be region-free for games, meaning import games will be much less of a pain to play over here...good for fans of anime games and obscure titles!

I wonder, will it only be for PS3 games or will it also work for PS2/1 games?
If it does, then I'll have to buy it. (just to play PS2 imports on) Curse you, Sony.

[Jimmy 345]

What developers, exactly? Most 360 games easily fit on DVD,

Certain Japanese devolopers complained.

None of the current 360 games are particularly long or use the consoles full graphics ability.

[Noukon]

Certain Japanese devolopers complained.

Such as?

None of the current 360 games are particularly long or use the consoles full graphics ability.

No, but none of them use a huge portion of their DVDs, either.

And actually, let's look at Oblivion as an example (since it's among the first next-gen games that are genuinely next-gen): Huge world, very detailed graphics, immense amounts of sound, fits nicely on DVD.

Graphics don't scale so much as you think in terms of how much disc space they require. A game is, essentially, made up of code and textures. If a game, even a next-gen game, genuinely needs a high-capacity format like Blu-ray, then its developers are simply incompetent when it comes to optimization and compression.

Blu-ray offers very little in relation to the huge expense it will add to PS3 hardware and software costs. It's featured in the PS3 as a means to market itself. Period.

[spidl]

Such as?

I believe the DOA developer mentioned something like that. Obviously they got over that problem. Space is not that big a deal for the next gen. Unless you want to watch hours of CGI movies then a dvd will fit nicely. The only interesting thing that came out of the speach was region free gaming. I do wonder if developers will delay games while they try to get all the localizing done for each region.

[Jimmy 345]

I am wondering why the hell so few of the trailers shown at the conference are not online. I really want to see them.

[Dark Fact]

Wasn't God of War II one of the trailers for PS3? I think IGN put up screenshots of it on their webpage. :shrug:

[Jimmy 345]

Wasn't God of War II one of the trailers for PS3? I think IGN put up screenshots of it on their webpage. :shrug:

Nope its a Playstation 2 exclusive. I believe its a big mistake for Sony but thats how it is. One devoloper said the Playstation 3 couldn't render the sex scenes correctly. Obviously a joke. I am sure the game will have awsome gameplay at least. Don't know why the trailer isn't online but it will be playable at E3. One claim said this game will be more brutal then the orginal. How the hell is that possible?

[Noukon]

I believe its a big mistake for Sony but thats how it is.

Not really. When GoWII is released, there will be far, far more sales potential for it on the PS2 than the PS3.

[veemonjosh]

So, does the PS3 still have that thing that blocks a game from being played on other PS3s?

Cause that and the price are all that are driving me away from it at this point.

[Noukon]

So, does the PS3 still have that thing that blocks a game from being played on other PS3s?

That was mostly speculative, and no official mention has been made of it (at least not yet).

[Jimmy 345]

That was mostly speculative, and no official mention has been made of it (at least not yet).

Sony officially announced that they wouldn't use it. To do such a thing would be total sucide. Sony is greedy but not stupid.

[Artimus Gigan]

Sony officially announced that they wouldn't use it. To do such a thing would be total sucide. Sony is greedy but not stupid.
All large companies are greedy, so hence it's normal and expected

But this is interesting their console and handheld are both region free, now just maybe they will include more english options for import games, that's always been the draw back for the games that I would like to import....I just can't read what they say....and hence am in the dark for those text heavy games. But this also opens the doors for possible extinction of importing games, if they do a simotanious release and include all languages on the disc from the get go, we could get all those japanese games without the higher fees(like contruction equipment fighters, or World Baby Combat Tourniment). I mean the PSP is pretty much getting all of the games(not utilities like Talkman) that the Japanese market got, hell we got Popolo and are getting Loco Roco....and Valkyrie Profile and Suikoden Memorial Collection still have a great chance of appearing as well.

The Japanese -centric genres could be made bargain titles in the US, those are relatively many are low production cost, and could possibly make up their intial cost that way. Then again games like Katamari and Pheonix Wright were pretty much the defintiion of Japanese-centric and those sold relatively well and were at full price

[Jimmy 345]

Not really. When GoWII is released, there will be far, far more sales potential for it on the PS2 than the PS3.

True but releasing it on the Playstation 2 denys the Playstation 3 what could have been a killer launch title. Not to mention many gamers who switched to Playstation 3 might see buying a Playstation 2 game no matter how good beneth them. Plus for me I was really looking forward to this game to see Kratos and the creatures with Playstation 3 graphics and now I know my wait for that will be much longer.

[Mynd Hed]

Then again games like Katamari and Pheonix Wright were pretty much the defintiion of Japanese-centric and those sold relatively well and were at full price

Since when is $20 for the original Katamari considered "full price" for a PS2 title?

[Noukon]

True but releasing it on the Playstation 2 denys the Playstation 3 what could have been a killer launch title. Not to mention many gamers who switched to Playstation 3 might see buying a Playstation 2 game no matter how good beneth them. Plus for me I was really looking forward to this game to see Kratos and the creatures with Playstation 3 graphics and now I know my wait for that will be much longer.

Okay, I'll go into detail on this.

Advantages to a PS2 release of GoWII:

Significantly higher sales of the game itself
Further boost to the GoW brand name (by virtue of it being exposed to a larger number of people)
Cheaper and shorter development cycle
Still available to PS3 owners via backwards compatability Advantages to a PS3 release of GOWII:

Slightly better graphics (first-gen PS3 games will not look much better than PS2 GoWII does)
Slight boost to the PS3 game lineup Frankly, it would have been stupid of them to make it a PS3 exclusive so early in the console's life. GoW is rising in popularity, but its brand is not established enough to carry the PS3's lineup. It would have been nice for PS3 owners, but it wouldn't have sold consoles, and it would have denied every fan of the franchise who can't afford a PS3 from buying it (and thus denied Sony a huge amount of potential revenue).

"I don't like that it won't be on PS3" does not constitute a bad business decision on Sony's part.

Besides, GoWIII will be on PS3, by which point the franchise will be more established and the PS3 userbase will likely be a lot larger.

[Jimmy 345]

Okay, I'll go into detail on this.

Advantages to a PS2 release of GoWII:

Significantly higher sales of the game itself
Further boost to the GoW brand name (by virtue of it being exposed to a larger number of people)
Cheaper and shorter development cycle
Still available to PS3 owners via backwards compatabilityAdvantages to a PS3 release of GOWII:

Slightly better graphics (first-gen PS3 games will not look much better than PS2 GoWII does)
Slight boost to the PS3 game lineupFrankly, it would have been stupid of them to make it a PS3 exclusive so early in the console's life. GoW is rising in popularity, but its brand is not established enough to carry the PS3's lineup. It would have been nice for PS3 owners, but it wouldn't have sold consoles, and it would have denied every fan of the franchise who can't afford a PS3 from buying it (and thus denied Sony a huge amount of potential revenue).

"I don't like that it won't be on PS3" does not constitute a bad business decision on Sony's part.

Besides, GoWIII will be on PS3, by which point the franchise will be more established and the PS3 userbase will likely be a lot larger.

Most of your arguements make sense except for your statement saying it would have slightly better graphics. True that launch titles are usually graphicly poor even at its worst the game would look vastly better on the Playstation 3. If you look at real time demos of Metal Gear Solid 4 and Lair (both supposed launch titles) you can see that even the best looking Playstation 2 game (Which is God of War) doesn't come close. Still given how the devolopers could sqeeze out every bit of the aging Playstation 2 I am sure with some work they could have put together something unbelieable for the Playstation 3. Still a God of War 3 is likely and I guess I can look forward to that with hope.

[Noukon]

Most of your arguements make sense except for your statement saying it would have slightly better graphics. True that launch titles are usually graphicly poor even at its worst the game would look vastly better on the Playstation 3. If you look at real time demos of Metal Gear Solid 4 and Lair (both supposed launch titles) you can see that even the best looking Playstation 2 game (Which is God of War) doesn't come close. Still given how the devolopers could sqeeze out every bit of the aging Playstation 2 I am sure with some work they could have put together something unbelieable for the Playstation 3. Still a God of War 3 is likely and I guess I can look forward to that with hope.

You're showing no understanding of the console game development cycle here.

If GoWII was developed and released for the PS3 instead of the PS2, it would not have significantly better graphics. Since it is a PS2 game, the development time/resources that would normally be dedicated to creating base assets and the game engine is instead used to hone these things further from the original game. Since it is exclusive to the PS2, and can further emphasize that specific hardware, it will end up transcending other PS2 software in terms of graphics.

PS3 development, on the other hand, is limited by the developers' limited knowledge of the hardware. The first-gen games will not look all that better than last-gen PS2 games. The MGS4 demo is not relevant to actual gameplay, as it was created as just that -- a demo. Impressive as it is, it is not an effective demonstration of actual, real-time gameplay.

When GoWIII is eventually released, however, it will be able to take much better advantage of the PS3 hardware, and I imagine it will look amazing.

In all, the point is the most meaningless of those I listed, anyway. You were talking about it being a bad business decision; it most certainly isn't. GoWII will be available to probably fifty times as many people this way. Since the brand isn't likely to push hardware sales if it is released on the PS3, this is pretty significant.

[Jimmy 345]

[quote=Noukon
PS3 development, on the other hand, is limited by the developers' limited knowledge of the hardware. The first-gen games will not look all that better than last-gen PS2 games. The MGS4 demo is not relevant to actual gameplay, as it was created as just that -- a demo. Impressive as it is, it is not an effective demonstration of actual, real-time gameplay.
[/quote]

Metal Gear Solid 4 was in real time. It was not a prerendered movie. They proved it by rotating it the image around. The final game might not look quite as good but it will still be far far superior to any Playstation 2 title. Not to mention the worst Xbox 360 looks signifigantly superior to the best Playstation 2 game are you argueing that Playstation 3 will look alot worse then the Xbox 360. Go find me one Playstation 2 game that looks even close to as good as Call of Duty 2 a launch title for the Xbox 360 a console that at the very worst is just as good as the Playstation 3. Competate devolopers can easily create launch titles that are amazing. Every so often lousy devolopers will put out a title that looks a generation behind but that doesn't mean that all launch titles are that bad.

[Noukon]

Metal Gear Solid 4 was in real time. It was not a prerendered movie. They proved it by rotating it the image around.

I know it was in realtime. That does not mean it is indicative of a consumer-end product. Tech demos and actual games are hugely different things; the demos can get away with a lot more. Like I said, you're obviously not that familiar with the console development process; your argument makes sense from the consumer point of view, but not from a realistic one.

I've seen plenty of other PS3 demo material. Some was shown at GDC this week. None of it looks all that great.

Also, I will say again that this point is the most irrelevant of all the ones made.

[atf487]

I just want to see some actual footage of someone playing the PS3. I know someone was doing this at GDC, but the no photos/videos restriction made it impossible to see. Maybe at E3.

Really, the only way I'd get a PS3 is if it offered a hell of a lot more than the 360. At this point, it doesn't look that way.

[Artimus Gigan]

I'm now curious on the new PS3 controller

the one that we've always seen it with was apparently scrapped in favor of a new design...

I still plan to buy this and the revolution, I already have my 360, DS, and PSP and have been very pleased sofar with what the next generation systems have offered.

[Boomhauer]

I'm now curious on the new PS3 controller

the one that we've always seen it with was apparently scrapped in favor of a new design...

I still plan to buy this and the revolution, I already have my 360, DS, and PSP and have been very pleased sofar with what the next generation systems have offered.

Ya mean the boomerang shape? That's not gonna last shortly after it's release. Samething with X-Box when they 5-lb. manhand controller came out. It had to be improved.

[Artimus Gigan]

Ya mean the boomerang shape? That's not gonna last shortly after it's release. Samething with X-Box when they 5-lb. manhand controller came out. It had to be improved.
No, the boomerang controller isn't even going to be mass produced

the controller that's going to be released at launch is going to be entirely different from the prototype

[Jimmy 345]

I just want to see some actual footage of someone playing the PS3. I know someone was doing this at GDC, but the no photos/videos restriction made it impossible to see. Maybe at E3.

Really, the only way I'd get a PS3 is if it offered a hell of a lot more than the 360. At this point, it doesn't look that way.

Sony has confirmed that many Playstation 3 games will be playable at E3. I hope to get footage before that why all the secrecy.

Graphically the Playstation 3 is superior to the 360 but only slightly not the generation better Sony wants you to believe. There is also the Playstation 3s ability to output 1080p while the Xbox 360 is limited to 720p/1080i. Though at the moment no games are being devoloped that will be natively rendered in that resolution. Playstation 3s only major advantage is the Blu-Ray technology. This offers more space for game devolopers and a cheap high definition movie player. Hell the fact that it is cheaper then a playback only Blu-Ray player is reason enough to buy it.

[Noukon]

Playstation 3s only major advantage is the Blu-Ray technology. This offers more space for game devolopers and a cheap high definition movie player.

Why do I have to repeatedly point this out?

From a game perspective, the Blu-ray drive offers no advantage. In fact, it severely disadvantages the PS3 as a game console.

The hardware will be more expensive to produce.

The software will be much more expensive to replicate.

If Sony ends up requiring publishers to replicate their titles on Blu-ray discs, many of them will scale back how many titles they release for it, or bail on it entirely.

I know you're big on Blu-ray, but seriously, why you continually prop it up as having a huge potential effect on gaming despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary is beyond me.

Hell the fact that it is cheaper then a playback only Blu-Ray player is reason enough to buy it.

That is, if you want a Blu-ray player. I think you're overestimating the potential popularity of Blu-ray. Keep in mind that the inclusion of this technology is, from a marketing aspect, for reasons that are the polar opposite of why the PS2 had DVD playback. Sony used DVD to sell the PS2; they're using the PS3 to sell Blu-ray.

[Jimmy 345]

http://www.ps3station.com/93/Xbox-360-DVD-Format-running-out-of-space.htm

"The volume of data in Enchant Arms won't fit into a single DVD. It's an RPG, so we're thinking it would be inevitable that we release it on two discs," says Takeuchi. "But to be honest, that's even looking grim."

Insomniac games has also said that Blu-Rays extra space will be an advantage for gaming.

If you want to create a game with considerable length and maxed out graphics and sound sound quality DVDs storage isn't enough. I don't agree with Sonys descign to mandate Blu-Ray for all game since few games are long enough and advanced enough to need it but to say it offers no advantage for gaming isn't true.

Who wouldn't want a Blu-Ray player at that price point. High definition movies come on.

[William C. Maune]

If there aren't that many games that need more than the storage capacity of 1 DVD, couldn't they just use 2 DVDs? I can't really see the amount of necessary storage per game jumping from under 5 gigs to over 10 gigs that quickly.

[Jimmy 345]

If there aren't that many games that need more than the storage capacity of 1 DVD, couldn't they just use 2 DVDs? I can't really see the amount of necessary storage per game jumping from under 5 gigs to over 10 gigs that quickly.

Yeah they could use two DVDs or a single layer Blu-Ray but a single layer Blu-Ray is actually slightly cheaper then two dual layer DVDs and you get the advantage of having the game on one disc. So yeah Blu-Ray is an advantage for gaming. Even if its not a cheap high definition movie player are enough to totally justify the Playstation 3s purchase. Most gamers are also movie buffs and most movie buffs like high definition. Therefore I am sure the Playstation 3 will be a hot seller.

[William C. Maune]

I don't think there is any data yet that says most movie buffs like High-Definition. Well, I don't doubt that most like it, but the question is whether they like it enough more than they like DVD to justify upgrading. HD is not as big a step up from DVD as DVD was from VHS. All HD really does is increase the video and audio quality. DVD increased the video and audio quality, introduced the concept of special features, and got rid of bulky, clumsy VHS tapes.

Additionally, to really get the benefit of HD movies, you have to have an HD TV. Despite being around for a few years now, while the number of HD TVs is growing, the majority is still content with their regular TVs. A $400+ PS3 is not going to convince folks they need HD movies, especially if they don't even have an HD TV.

[Noukon]

"The volume of data in Enchant Arms won't fit into a single DVD. It's an RPG, so we're thinking it would be inevitable that we release it on two discs," says Takeuchi. "But to be honest, that's even looking grim."

RPGs are released over two discs all the time. Why is it suddenly a huge problem?

Insomniac games has also said that Blu-Rays extra space will be an advantage for gaming.

Insomniac is hardly impartial. If it was really an advantage to gaming, you'd see a lot more developers and publishers making comments like that.

If you want to create a game with considerable length and maxed out graphics and sound sound quality DVDs storage isn't enough.

Do you play video games, or are you just here to prop up Blu-ray? The vast, vast majority of video games will fit on DVD (or smaller) media.

The common reason why games require multiple discs is if they include a huge load of video content.

I'm going to point out Oblivion to you once again. It presents a massive and intricately detailed world with huge amounts of content and pretty much the best graphics ever seen in a video game, and it does it on one DVD.

Graphics and audio have nothing to do with it. They aren't that big to begin with, and compression technology for them is highly advanced at this point.

I don't agree with Sonys descign to mandate Blu-Ray for all game since few games are long enough and advanced enough to need it but to say it offers no advantage for gaming isn't true.

Wrong. The only real advantage it offers is pressing more video content on one disc. That's it. If high-capacity discs were really a requirement for next-gen gaming, do you really think Microsoft would be stupid enough to cripple their console by only supporting standard DVD?

The inclusion of Blu-ray in the PS3 is at an added expense to consumers and publishers. The only real service it provides is to potentially introduce Blu-ray into more homes. It is therefore a major disadvantage to the console as a whole.

You're talking to a game developer here. I know what I'm talking about.

Who wouldn't want a Blu-Ray player at that price point. High definition movies come on.

Who wouldn't? Anyone who doesn't own an HDTV, since the functionality is completely useless without one.

Your arguments are extremely short-sighted. The idea that high-capacity media will provide an adequate benefit to next-gen gaming is delusional at best.

[Jimmy 345]

RPGs are released over two discs all the time. Why is it suddenly a huge problem?

I'm going to point out Oblivion to you once again. It presents a massive and intricately detailed world with huge amounts of content and pretty much the best graphics ever seen in a video game, and it does it on one DVD.

Graphics and audio have nothing to do with it. They aren't that big to begin with, and compression technology for them is highly advanced at this point.

Wrong. The only real advantage it offers is pressing more video content on one disc. That's it. If high-capacity discs were really a requirement for next-gen gaming, do you really think Microsoft would be stupid enough to cripple their console by only supporting standard DVD?

The inclusion of Blu-ray in the PS3 is at an added expense to consumers and publishers. The only real service it provides is to potentially introduce Blu-ray into more homes. It is therefore a major disadvantage to the console as a whole.

You're talking to a game developer here. I know what I'm talking about.

Who wouldn't? Anyone who doesn't own an HDTV, since the functionality is completely useless without one.

Your arguments are extremely short-sighted. The idea that high-capacity media will provide an adequate benefit to next-gen gaming is delusional at best.

I never said that high capacity discs were a requirement. The number of games that need the space is small but you yourself admitt RPGs often are released on multiple discs well on Playstation 3 RPGs won't how is this not an advantage?

Over 60% of Xbox 360 owners have an digital television of some kind. The number can only be higher for the Playstation 3. So a good majority of Playstation 3 buyers will have good HDTVs. What kind of gamers who owns an HDTV and a Playstation 3 for gaming will still buy standard definition movies esspecially when the software is that much more.

[Noukon]

I never said that high capacity discs were a requirement. The number of games that need the space is small but you yourself admitt RPGs often are released on multiple discs well on Playstation 3 RPGs won't how is this not an advantage?

So you're saying that a very slight advantage for a handful of games justifies much higher hardware and software prices? Ridiculous.

There is no genuine drawback to a select few games being released on multiple discs; it's never been a problem, and it won't be a problem if it continues. Trying to justify the inclusion of Blu-ray hardware in the console over this tiny point is ludicrous.

Over 60% of Xbox 360 owners have an digital television of some kind.

"Of some kind"? That's vague as hell. If that includes EDTVs, then that number is meaningless, as there's no real advantage to owning an HD content player for an EDTV.

Also, look at that number again: 60%. If it's even a correct number, that means almost half of the people who buy one don't get to take advantage of the HD technology. If the console costs $100-200 more simply to include that technology, then all of those people are spending money on something that's worthless to them.

The number can only be higher for the Playstation 3. So a good majority of Playstation 3 buyers will have good HDTVs.

This is true by virtue of the fact that people will be less likely to buy a PS3 if they don't own an HDTV. That higher percentage you're referring to translates to less overall sales.

What kind of gamers who owns an HDTV and a Playstation 3 for gaming will still buy standard definition movies esspecially when the software is that much more.

This just doesn't make any sense. Your earlier statement was an attempt at asking "who wouldn't want a cheap Blu-ray player?" I believe I answered that question adequately: People who don't own HDTVs.

Most of your arguments only serve to prove my points. I know you're really into Blu-ray, but that only serves to hurt your case here. Your statements throw logic out the window in favor of biased fallacy.

[Jimmy 345]

So you're saying that a very slight advantage for a handful of games justifies much higher hardware and software prices? Ridiculous.

There is no genuine drawback to a select few games being released on multiple discs; it's never been a problem, and it won't be a problem if it continues. Trying to justify the inclusion of Blu-ray hardware in the console over this tiny point is ludicrous.

"Of some kind"? That's vague as hell. If that includes EDTVs, then that number is meaningless, as there's no real advantage to owning an HD content player for an EDTV.

Also, look at that number again: 60%. If it's even a correct number, that means almost half of the people who buy one don't get to take advantage of the HD technology. If the console costs $100-200 more simply to include that technology, then all of those people are spending money on something that's worthless to them.

This is true by virtue of the fact that people will be less likely to buy a PS3 if they don't own an HDTV. That higher percentage you're referring to translates to less overall sales.

This just doesn't make any sense. Your earlier statement was an attempt at asking "who wouldn't want a cheap Blu-ray player?" I believe I answered that question adequately: People who don't own HDTVs.

Most of your arguments only serve to prove my points. I know you're really into Blu-ray, but that only serves to hurt your case here. Your statements throw logic out the window in favor of biased fallacy.

I am an EDTV owner and yeah it is an improvement. Even on an EDTV Blu-Ray should be a signifigant improvement. Hell even on a standard television Blu-Ray might be an improvement. Though no increase in resolution some high definition discs will probably be remasted better which should make a noticable improvement. Enough gamers will have HDTVs to make Blu-Ray inclusion a huge market advantage that will both help sell more Playstation 3s and help Blu-Ray kill HD-DVD fast.

I disagree that games on multiple discs isn't a drawback games aren't like movies they require work to get through and starting a game in the middle to test the second disc can be pain. Its much more convient to have games on one disc. Ok the advantage isn't a big one but you started off by saying it would be no advantage whatsoever and I am only argueing that there are cases were having higher capacity discs can be an advantage. I am not argueing anything more. Whether you believe that advantage is enough to justify the cost or not is an opinion but I think it is more then worth it.

[Noukon]

I am an EDTV owner and yeah it is an improvement. Even on an EDTV Blu-Ray should be a signifigant improvement. Hell even on a standard television Blu-Ray might be an improvement.

You've got to be kidding me. Regular DVD outputs at EDTV resolution. And improvement on an SDTV? What the hell?

Though no increase in resolution some high definition discs will probably be remasted better which should make a noticable improvement.

Not to the tune of buying ridiculously expensive equipment.

Enough gamers will have HDTVs to make Blu-Ray inclusion a huge market advantage that will both help sell more Playstation 3s and help Blu-Ray kill HD-DVD fast.

No, no, no. A thousand times no.

There are so many aspects of fallacy here, and I doubt you'll understand any of them.

Blu-ray drives up the cost of the PS3 hardware itself, which is, in and of itself, a huge blow. In addition to that, the fact that HD technology is the reason for the high price instantly ostracizes a huge portion of its potential consumer base.

Blu-ray will not help the PS3. When the console is first released, it will sell rapidly, as hyped consoles always do, but when it comes down to growing the installed base, the high cost associated with including Blu-ray may be a severe detriment.

I disagree that games on multiple discs isn't a drawback games aren't like movies they require work to get through and starting a game in the middle to test the second disc can be pain.

I don't even get what you're saying here. Test the second disc? Why would you do that?

Its much more convient to have games on one disc. Ok the advantage isn't a big one but you started off by saying it would be no advantage whatsoever and I am only argueing that there are cases were having higher capacity discs can be an advantage.

It's only a perceived advantage, in any case. I'm reasonably sure that two DVDs are still far less expensive to manufacture than one Blu-ray disc. If you can provide evidence to the contrary (besides hearsay), I'll reconsider that point.

I am not argueing anything more. Whether you believe that advantage is enough to justify the cost or not is an opinion but I think it is more then worth it.

This is not a matter of opinion; it is a matter of speculation and the knowledge to back that speculation up. One's opinion is a matter of taste and personal preference. I have no real opinion or preference regarding Blu-ray, but I do know quite a bit about its implementation on the PS3. Hell, I have a vested interest in the thing succeeding, so why would I be arguing like this out of any kind of spite?

Nothing I'm saying here is biased or stigmatic, it's all factual. For some people, yes, the inclusion of a Blu-ray drive in the PS3 is a very good thing. Its potential effects on the console's success, however, are worrisome.

Honestly, you sound like someone who works for Sony. I know it's a widely-used marketing tactic to pay people to promote a product on message boards, so maybe that assumption isn't so off-base.

[atf487]

Jimmy:

Blu-Ray cheaper than 2 Dual layer DVDs? You've got to be joking.

I just got 5 Dual layer DVDs bundled with my DVD burner. Even if the media is most likely crap, there is no freaking way for Blu-Ray to be cheaper than that.

I pretty much agree with everything Noukon says though. Merril Lynch said that a Blu-Ray player will cost 350 to produce; compared to the Xbox 360's DVD rom which probably cost 15 dollars, or less. On this basis alone, I don't think it is worthwhile to push this cost onto the consumer, especially when games should easily be able to fit on a dual layer dvd. Just look at some of the GameCube games that fit on a 1.5 gig optical disc, Metroid Prime and Wind Waker have beautiful graphics and aren't extremely short games.

You also mention movie quality, which to me is utterly useless until the prices are similar. Blu-Ray movies/box sets are going to be much more expensive than DVDs with little incentive for anyone but the hard core early adopters to go after them. I mean, Sony is trying to break Blu-Ray into the mainstream market, yes? They won't do it when not many people in the US have HDTVs, AND is overpriced. Essentially I see it akin to UMD movies now. They're more expensive, but not nearly as useful.

Maybe, and I mean MAYBE, Blu-Ray will catch on late into the PS3's lifespan. The costs will have gone down, and more will have HDTVs, therefore actually considering the format. Then their plan will make sense. But is it worth it to lose SO MUCH in the beginning?

[Jimmy 345]

Jimmy:

Blu-Ray cheaper than 2 Dual layer DVDs? You've got to be joking.

I just got 5 Dual layer DVDs bundled with my DVD burner. Even if the media is most likely crap, there is no freaking way for Blu-Ray to be cheaper than that.

I pretty much agree with everything Noukon says though. Merril Lynch said that a Blu-Ray player will cost 350 to produce; compared to the Xbox 360's DVD rom which probably cost 15 dollars, or less. On this basis alone, I don't think it is worthwhile to push this cost onto the consumer, especially when games should easily be able to fit on a dual layer dvd. Just look at some of the GameCube games that fit on a 1.5 gig optical disc, Metroid Prime and Wind Waker have beautiful graphics and aren't extremely short games.

You also mention movie quality, which to me is utterly useless until the prices are similar. Blu-Ray movies/box sets are going to be much more expensive than DVDs with little incentive for anyone but the hard core early adopters to go after them. I mean, Sony is trying to break Blu-Ray into the mainstream market, yes? They won't do it when not many people in the US have HDTVs, AND is overpriced. Essentially I see it akin to UMD movies now. They're more expensive, but not nearly as useful.

Maybe, and I mean MAYBE, Blu-Ray will catch on late into the PS3's lifespan. The costs will have gone down, and more will have HDTVs, therefore actually considering the format. Then their plan will make sense. But is it worth it to lose SO MUCH in the beginning?

Linchs estimates are dead wrong. The Blu-Ray drive will cost $250 at the very most. Blu-Ray and UMD have nothing in commen. Blu-Ray is a legidimete high definition format UMD is a format that has no useful value. I am amazed UMD has a sold one. I don't think Sony is worrying about the ten people who buy Playstation 3 without an HDTV. HDTV is the future people who don't have one need to get with the program (Admittingly that means me). Sony isn't really attempting to drive Blu-Ray into the mainstream immediatly they are concentrating at the momment just defeating HD-DVD. Blu-Rays inclusion into the Playstation 3 is the only way to garuntee victory. Without it the war would be anyones guess.

[Noukon]

Linchs estimates are dead wrong. The Blu-Ray drive will cost $250 at the very most.

The cost of putting Blu-ray drives into PS3s will actually be closer to $220 a unit.

That's still ridiculously expensive.

I don't think Sony is worrying about the ten people who buy Playstation 3 without an HDTV.

Dude, you're not getting it. They should be worrying about the millions of people who won't buy one because they don't have an HDTV.

HDTV is the future people who don't have one need to get with the program (Admittingly that means me).

No, they need to have a money tree magically spout up in their yard.

Or wait until true HDTV is of comparable expense to SDTV, which will be years.

Sony isn't really attempting to drive Blu-Ray into the mainstream immediatly they are concentrating at the momment just defeating HD-DVD.

If that were true, it would be, to put it bluntly, moronic and short-sighted. Sony, as a corporation, is receding quickly. They have one saving grace: The PlayStation brand name. Blu-ray could also do well for them, but its chances of being any more than the video equivalent of SACD are minute. You're right in that the PS3 is a way to push Blu-ray more; unfortunately, it's also detrimental to use it in such a way.

Blu-Rays inclusion into the Playstation 3 is the only way to garuntee victory. Without it the war would be anyones guess.

It still is anyone's guess.

Picture this scenario: The PS3 launches this fall. 2-3 million units are shipped and sold through by the end of the year. After the holidays are over, sales are strong for a few months, then dwindle. By pricing the unit so high for the sake of added-value features (Blu-ray) with a limited audience, they're limiting the console's ability to sell like hotcakes to the entire market.

They're undermining their only successful division to push Blu-ray, and lord knows if it will actually work.

[Artimus Gigan]

Well all things considered, Blu-ray is just the format for the games themselves, much like UMD. IF we use that as a recent comparrison, Movies on UMD have not been sucessful where as the games on UMD have. Even considering that the PSP is a very expensive handheld it still sold well. So if a PS3 is released with Blu-Ray and has a 360 pricepoint, we more or less may have a similar situation.

The Blu-Ray movies may not take off, but the Blue-Ray games will(I mean they have quite a line-up and Sony has big holdings in Japan and in America).

Now being that Blu-Ray is also compatatble with DVD not all games will need to be on Blu-Ray discs most likely, it was the same with the PS2 not all the games were on the same Disc format and some were on CD while others were on DVD.

I mean the format for the games may not even play a sufficant variable for success being that essentialy all the systems essentialy have a disc format(which is not hat big of a difference between carts and discs), hell the Gamecube didn't even use CD or DVDs and intead used GD-Rom disc. So aside from the default revolution control(but they have the GC Shell thing), we have all three consoles on the similar types of controllers and on the similar game formats. Also all the systems should be able to deliver similar game quality, We pretty much have a level playing field essentialy. Some games may look a bit shinier when it comes to ports, but the overall quality is up to the production companies themselves(i.e. GRAW on XB sucks where as GRAW on 360 is very good).

[Jimmy 345]

No, they need to have a money tree magically spout up in their yard.

Or wait until true HDTV is of comparable expense to SDTV, which will be years.
If that were true, it would be, to put it bluntly, moronic and short-sighted. Sony, as a corporation, is receding quickly. They have one saving grace: The PlayStation brand name. Blu-ray could also do well for them, but its chances of being any more than the video equivalent of SACD are minute. You're right in that the PS3 is a way to push Blu-ray more; unfortunately, it's also detrimental to use it in such a way.

It still is anyone's guess.

Picture this scenario: The PS3 launches this fall. 2-3 million units are shipped and sold through by the end of the year. After the holidays are over, sales are strong for a few months, then dwindle. By pricing the unit so high for the sake of added-value features (Blu-ray) with a limited audience, they're limiting the console's ability to sell like hotcakes to the entire market.

They're undermining their only successful division to push Blu-ray, and lord knows if it will actually work.

No if the Playstation 3 takes off and sells even close to the number of units as Playstation 2 Blu-Ray wins. HD-DVD won't be able to compete with the numbers hell they haven't been able preorder 10,000 units. Less then 20% of Playstation 3 buyers have to become Blu-Ray buyers (which is easy) for Blu-Ray to outnumber every single HD-DVD player. If Blu-Ray wins then Sony corners the whole home movie market which is ten times the size of the game market. The Playstation 3 is Sonys attempt to corner the movie market. Its a very smart business stratagy if you think about it. It could loose them lots in the short term but if it succeeds then it will make them plenty in the long run. Sony is greedy but not stupid.

[Duke]

No, they need to have a money tree magically spout up in their yard.

Or wait until true HDTV is of comparable expense to SDTV, which will be years.
Well, some companies are making $300 HDTVs, though the biggest size is, I believe, 20".

I don't see the majority of America having HDTV's until 2010 at the earliest. And that's pushing it.

[Noukon]

Well all things considered, Blu-ray is just the format for the games themselves, much like UMD. IF we use that as a recent comparrison, Movies on UMD have not been sucessful where as the games on UMD have. Even considering that the PSP is a very expensive handheld it still sold well. So if a PS3 is released with Blu-Ray and has a 360 pricepoint, we more or less may have a similar situation.

You're not really paying attention here. The vast majority of PS3 games will not need to make use of the capacity offered by Blu-ray discs.

No if the Playstation 3 takes off and sells even close to the number of units as Playstation 2 Blu-Ray wins.

Except it won't. Not with the price point Blu-ray has saddled it with, along with the growing amount of competition Sony has on the console arena.

HD-DVD won't be able to compete with the numbers hell they haven't been able preorder 10,000 units. Less then 20% of Playstation 3 buyers have to become Blu-Ray buyers (which is easy) for Blu-Ray to outnumber every single HD-DVD player.

Your numbers are not realistic. I'll point out again that, by virtue of its price point, the PS3 will not sell as much as the PS2 did. Additionally, Sony will most definitely not be able to retain the market share they had last generation, given the growth of the Xbox brand name.

If Blu-Ray wins then Sony corners the whole home movie market which is ten times the size of the game market. The Playstation 3 is Sonys attempt to corner the movie market. Its a very smart business stratagy if you think about it. It could loose them lots in the short term but if it succeeds then it will make them plenty in the long run.

You're trying to turn this into a discussion about the movie industry/market, which is wholly inappropriate for this forum.

You didn't answer me earlier. Do you actually play video games, or are you just in here to prop up the Blu-ray format for some ungodly reason?

Sony is greedy but not stupid.

Stupid, not necessarily. Arrogant, yes. They're going down a similar road as Nintendo did with the N64. This is really frightening to us game developers.

Well, some companies are making $300 HDTVs, though the biggest size is, I believe, 20".

I don't see the majority of America having HDTV's until 2010 at the earliest. And that's pushing it.

True. Though, those cheaper HD sets are pretty crummy, and the general consumer mindset still has it that HDTVs are prohibitively expensive.

There are studies out there showing that the majority of HDTV owners don't even have their sets hooked up properly, and are watching all of their content in SD. The majority of people don't really care (or even know much) about HD, it seems.

Even my contacts in the home theater industry think Blu-ray has very little chance of becoming more than the next Laserdisc.

[Artimus Gigan]

You're not really paying attention here. The vast majority of PS3 games will not need to make use of the capacity offered by Blu-ray discs.

I just said something similar later in that post

Not all of them will need to be on Blu-ray but can use DVD discs instead

I mean developers now can just barely fill a DVD, so many would opt for a DVD to put the game on.

However depending on the sucess of blu-ray, if it succeeds then more power to them. However if it fails we may see a PSThree with a Standard DVD capacity and the formerly Blu-ray games released as Bargain Titles on DVD.

[Jimmy 345]

You're not really paying attention here. The vast majority of PS3 games will not need to make use of the capacity offered by Blu-ray discs.

Except it won't. Not with the price point Blu-ray has saddled it with, along with the growing amount of competition Sony has on the console arena.

Your numbers are not realistic. I'll point out again that, by virtue of its price point, the PS3 will not sell as much as the PS2 did. Additionally, Sony will most definitely not be able to retain the market share they had last generation, given the growth of the Xbox brand name.

You're trying to turn this into a discussion about the movie industry/market, which is wholly inappropriate for this forum.

You didn't answer me earlier. Do you actually play video games, or are you just in here to prop up the Blu-ray format for some ungodly reason?

Stupid, not necessarily. Arrogant, yes. They're going down a similar road as Nintendo did with the N64. This is really frightening to us game developers.

True. Though, those cheaper HD sets are pretty crummy, and the general consumer mindset still has it that HDTVs are prohibitively expensive.

There are studies out there showing that the majority of HDTV owners don't even have their sets hooked up properly, and are watching all of their content in SD. The majority of people don't really care (or even know much) about HD, it seems.

Yes I do play video games and I love video games just as much as movies. Blu-Ray should be optional not mandatory for devolopers I don't know what Sony is thinking. I just believe that having higher capacity discs are a fun option for the rare chance they are needed and that option is an advantage. Blu-Rays drive only adds $220 to the cost of production and considering the loose its not signifigant. Sony doesn't need to sell the numbers Playstation 2 did in order to grossly outnumber HD-DVD in sales. There will be a million units in peoples homes before years end there won't be even a fraction of that many HD-DVD players. Playstation 3 can easily accomplish its goal of killing HD-DVD and give gamers a very very affordable Blu-Ray player option.

[Noukon]

Yes I do play video games and I love video games just as much as movies. Blu-Ray should be optional not mandatory for devolopers I don't know what Sony is thinking. I just believe that having higher capacity discs are a fun option for the rare chance they are needed and that option is an advantage.

Given the cost, it is not an advantage, just a perceived one. Having Blu-ray gains the PS3 nothing in the game market.

Blu-Rays drive only adds $220 to the cost of production and considering the loose its not signifigant.

Multiply 220 by a few million and tell me that's an insignificant number.

Sony doesn't need to sell the numbers Playstation 2 did in order to grossly outnumber HD-DVD in sales. There will be a million units in peoples homes before years end there won't be even a fraction of that many HD-DVD players. Playstation 3 can easily accomplish its goal of killing HD-DVD and give gamers a very very affordable Blu-Ray player option.

And since when is this argument about the potential success of Blu-ray over HD-DVD? Nobody will debate that the inclusion of Blu-ray in the PS3 gives the format an advantage. The issue is the potentially huge hit it will have on the PS3's market share.

This is like trying to argue with a commercial.

[Jimmy 345]

Given the cost, it is not an advantage, just a perceived one. Having Blu-ray gains the PS3 nothing in the game market.
This is like trying to argue with a commercial.

No but blu-ray does help the Playstation 3 gain a bigger portion of the movie market. Many gamers who are just as interested in high definition movies should be attracted to the Playstation 3 over the 360 in that market.

[WeathermanX5]

I wonder, will they continue making PS2 games, once the PS3 comes out, akin to how new Playstation games were still released fairly far into the PS2's release?

[Jmanunknown]

I wonder, will they continue making PS2 games, once the PS3 comes out, akin to how new Playstation games were still released fairly far into the PS2's release?

Yes Sony will continue making games for the PS2 once the PS3 is released. I think they'll milk the PS2 for all its worth considering that the PS3 might come with a pretty expensive price tag for a next gen console. They've got at least one big gaming coming for the PS2 post PS3 launch and thats God of War 2 coming out in 2007.

[Jimmy 345]

http://www.joystiq.com/category/sony-playstation-3/

Heres the first videos from Beyond the Box. Including proof that the previous Lair, Warhawk, and Moterstorm trailers were in real time. Poor quality but still worth a look.

[Adam Tyner]

HD-DVD won't be able to compete with the numbers hell they haven't been able preorder 10,000 units. Less then 20% of Playstation 3 buyers have to become Blu-Ray buyers (which is easy) for Blu-Ray to outnumber every single HD-DVD player.You're grossly misunderstanding the numbers. 10,000 units are just the initial run of the initial two HD-DVD players.

You've got to be kidding me. Regular DVD outputs at EDTV resolution.In fairness, a big part of the difference between DVD and high-definition isn't just detail, it's color reproduction, and an EDTV can take better advantage of the wider palette Blu-ray and HD-DVD offer even if it can't resolve all the detail.

I don't think Sony is worrying about the ten people who buy Playstation 3 without an HDTV.You left a whole lot of zeroes off that "10".

[Chad Bonin]

Gigan, as usual, I must ask you for a source. Where did you read that Sony announced that the Batarang-style PS3 controller has been scrapped? The IGN article just states that some have thought it to be conceptual. Sony has not officially said "This is a placeholder", unlike, say, Nintendo who has said "The Revolution is just a codename".

[Noukon]

http://www.joystiq.com/category/sony-playstation-3/

Heres the first videos from Beyond the Box. Including proof that the previous Lair, Warhawk, and Moterstorm trailers were in real time. Poor quality but still worth a look.

Nobody's disputing that they weren't in real time.

[Jimmy 345]

Nobody's disputing that they weren't in real time.

All three games are strongly rumored to be launch titles. Lair excites me the most since Factor 5 proved with Rogue Leader they are definutly capable of sequezing amazing things out of new consoles. Plus I am a sucking for dragons.

It also includes the demo for God of War 2. The game looks like it will surpase the original. Playstation 2 or 3 I am excited.

E3 will have all these games playable and it just can't come fast enough.

[peacebyanymeans]

All three games are strongly rumored to be launch titles. Lair excites me the most since Factor 5 proved with Rogue Leader they are definutly capable of sequezing amazing things out of new consoles. Plus I am a sucking for dragons.

It also includes the demo for God of War 2. The game looks like it will surpase the original. Playstation 2 or 3 I am excited.

E3 will have all these games playable and it just can't come fast enough.

What are you talking about now? Are you like, a Sony employee or something? Because you pimp Sony ever chance you get.

Also, I pretty sure GoW2 was confirmed for PS2.

[Artimus Gigan]

What are you talking about now? Are you like, a Sony employee or something? Because you pimp Sony ever chance you get.

Also, I pretty sure GoW2 was confirmed for PS2.
I think he's just really really passionate about on peticular company

and GOW2 is for PS2


unless they intend on pullling a GRAW, which doesn't seem likely

[Jimmy 345]

What are you talking about now? Are you like, a Sony employee or something? Because you pimp Sony ever chance you get.

Also, I pretty sure GoW2 was confirmed for PS2.

I know God of War 2 will be for the Playstation 2 and am dissipointed but if the game is cool enough (Which after seeing this trailer it probably will be) ill probably get it anyway.

Also I was the one who said UMD was a stupid idea that should die didn't I. If I were a Sony employee I would be fired. I only prop up Sony when they have the better product its that simple.

[Jimmy 345]

Big News

President of Sony Europe confirmed that the Playstation 3 will sell between 500-600 Euros. Since the Xbox 360 cost 400 Euros I believe its safe to assume it will be the same in dollars despite the exchance rate. So between $500 and $600 this November. However he failed to give more details. For example with two prices I wonder if that means we will get two packages. One with just the console and the other with added accesseries just like Microsoft did. While that might seem pricey for a game console given the high price of Blu-Ray players that amount is actually damn cheap. I will pick one up as soon as I can.

[peacebyanymeans]

If we play the USD-Euro game, then it shall be $500-$600 here.

I know how this works... ;)

[silverwings]

If they confirm anything higher than $400 at E3, I'm just gonna wait for a price drop and pick up a PS2 while I wait.

I can't afford both a Rev and a PS3 at the same time for more than that. :sweat:

In the articles I read, though, the guy defended the price point as saying that it was cheap for a blue-ray player. That stance alone makes me sad. It should be a game machine first and a dvd player second. :sad:

[Jimmy 345]

If they confirm anything higher than $400 at E3, I'm just gonna wait for a price drop and pick up a PS2 while I wait.

I can't afford both a Rev and a PS3 at the same time for more than that. :sweat:

In the articles I read, though, the guy defended the price point as saying that it was cheap for a blue-ray player. That stance alone makes me sad. It should be a game machine first and a dvd player second. :sad:

1. Blu-Ray does benefit gaming as discussed before.

2. Its blu-ray ability will not in anyway hinder gaming. I couldn't be more happy Sony decided to give us a cheap high definition player so fast and I am so sick of people complaining about it. If you don't want blu-ray buy a 360. Its that simple.

[Duke]

If you don't want blu-ray buy a 360. Its that simple.
I'm going to go with Option 3 and forgo both PS3 and a 360 for the Revolution.

[William C. Maune]

I couldn't be more happy Sony decided to give us a cheap high definition player so fast and I am so sick of people complaining about it. If you don't want blu-ray buy a 360. Its that simple.

Sony still has to prove that their "cheap high definition player" included in the PS3 is better than the DVD player included in the PS2. I'd much rather have a high-def player dedicated to playing movies and a game player dedicated to playing games than one box that only sort of does each well. Between the two, I probably would get the 360 (in addition to the Revolution). I'll get most likely about the same games, without the unnecessary (as Noukon has proved) Blu-ray player included.

[Jimmy 345]

I'm going to go with Option 3 and forgo both PS3 and a 360 for the Revolution.

Revolution doesn't even have HD support. Even the first Xbox had that. Its the size of a CD-ROM drive and can't possibly support the kind of graphics next generation needs in something that small. I will be surprised if the graphics even come close to the two real consoles the Xbox 360 and the Playstation 3. Plus the controller looks like it was designed on crack. Awful.

The Playstation 3 and Xbox 360 are the only real options for next generation gaming. Nintendo continues to flood the market with cheap inferior products and its best to just ignore them. Playstation 3 definutly wins for me just for the ability to watch high def movies and its full 1080p support.

[William C. Maune]

Revolution doesn't even have HD support. Even the first Xbox had that. Its the size of a CD-ROM drive and can't possibly support the kind of graphics next generation needs in something that small. I will be surprised if the graphics even come close to the two real consoles the Xbox 360 and the Playstation 3. Plus the controller looks like it was designed on crack. Awful.

The Playstation 3 and Xbox 360 are the only real options for next generation gaming. Nintendo continues to flood the market with cheap inferior products and its best to just ignore them. Playstation 3 definutly wins for me just for the ability to watch high def movies and its full 1080p support.[/QUOTE]

HD support only benefits those who have HDTVs. For those without, 480 is plenty nice. As for Nintendo's "cheap inferior products," the DS is currently outselling the PSP worldwide (although the PSP itself is doing alright) and proving that graphics aren't everything. Nintendo will most likely not have the prettiest games on the market, but graphics are not everything. Graphics alone do not make a gaming system a "real" console.

[Duke]

Revolution doesn't even have HD support. Even the first Xbox had that. Its the size of a CD-ROM drive and can't possibly support the kind of graphics next generation needs in something that small. I will be surprised if the graphics even come close to the two real consoles the Xbox 360 and the Playstation 3. Plus the controller looks like it was designed on crack. Awful.

The Playstation 3 and Xbox 360 are the only real options for next generation gaming. Nintendo continues to flood the market with cheap inferior products and its best to just ignore them. Playstation 3 definutly wins for me just for the ability to watch high def movies and its full 1080p support.
1) I don't give a damn about HD, since I don't own any HD products and likely won't for the next 5 years. HD is as big a factor into my decision-making for video game systems as which system has the better Madden game (and for the record, I never have and never will buy a Madden game).

2) 90% of my favorite games are made by Nintendo. The only games I want to play on other systems are the Gundam games, the Jax series, and the Kingdom Hearts series. Not worth buying a PS2/3, especially since I've been buying more and more DVDs over games.

3) I've liked every single controller Nintendo has made since the SNES, so I'm confident the control will work out. After all, Nintendo made wireless gaming kick ass, so they can do the same with motion control.

4) I honestly don't give a damn about what the graphics look like. Hell, I'd love for there to be more sprite games, because sprites = awesomeness.

[Jimmy 345]

Sony still has to prove that their "cheap high definition player" included in the PS3 is better than the DVD player included in the PS2. I'd much rather have a high-def player dedicated to playing movies and a game player dedicated to playing games than one box that only sort of does each well. Between the two, I probably would get the 360 (in addition to the Revolution). I'll get most likely about the same games, without the unnecessary (as Noukon has proved) Blu-ray player included.

Does Sony really have to prove that it will be a quality Blu-Ray player. I have no doubt that a true Blu-Ray player will have slightly better preformance but look at the price value. $800 for just a player (assuming there will be a slight price drop) versus $500 for a player plus game console even if the movie ability is a bit sub par there is still far more price value in the Playstation 3. The Playstation 3 will be capable of 1080p. That puts its quality above any current HD-DVD player. Even if it didn't the worst possible Blu-Ray player will still be far far above the best DVD player. Blu-Ray in the Playstation 3 is a blessing a way of benefiting both cooperation and consumer.

[William C. Maune]

Does Sony really have to prove that it will be a quality Blu-Ray player.

After the the problems with the PS2 DVD players, I think they do. It doesn't matter what resolution it outputs at if the thing can't read all DVDs and Blu-Ray discs, breaks down more easily than other players, etc.

[Duke]

Does Sony really have to prove that it will be a quality Blu-Ray player.
Are you forgetting how many glitches Sony had to make to the PS2's DVD Player due to how many problems it had? Hell, DVD Review sites needed to say if the DVD was actually playable in PS2s during its first year or two on the market. Sony's initial PS2 DVD Player was complete and utter crap, so yea, I'd say they'd have to make the Blu-Ray drive as glitch-free as possible, especially at that price point.

[silverwings]

1. Blu-Ray does benefit gaming as discussed before.

How so? Larger storage space? I don't see any other benifit. Most companies won't fill half that space anyways.

2. Its blu-ray ability will not in anyway hinder gaming. I couldn't be more happy Sony decided to give us a cheap high definition player so fast and I am so sick of people complaining about it. If you don't want blu-ray buy a 360. Its that simple.

I wasn't talking about blu-ray hindering gaming ablitity. I was refering to the fact that they were definding the price point of a *gaming* system by saying it's a cheaper *dvd* player.

I don't like this mentality that sony is getting, that it's an entertainment center first, and oh yeah it plays games too. I want a gaming system. I have a DVD player. It works just fine. And frankly, untill Blu-Ray dvds are out and affordable, I don't care about them.

And I never said anything about wanting a 360. I really want a PS3, I do. I'm disappointed at the price as we know because it just means I have to wait to get the system. Instead, I'll pick up a PS2 on the cheap and catch up on those games that I missed.

Revolution doesn't even have HD support. Even the first Xbox had that. Its the size of a CD-ROM drive and can't possibly support the kind of graphics next generation needs in something that small. I will be surprised if the graphics even come close to the two real consoles the Xbox 360 and the Playstation 3. Plus the controller looks like it was designed on crack. Awful.

HD support only matters to those with HD. Guess what, many don't. Why would I want to pay money for something I can't use?

Size has nothing to do with power. Look at technology around you. Cellphones are getting smaller since advancement in technology = smaller chips. DVD players, CD players, Radios, etc... all forms of technology tend to get smaller and more efficient as they go along. And they don't become weaker for being smaller.

And the graphics? Have you looked at 360 graphics? We didn't see a huge leap in graphical power from the Xbox to the 360, unlike leaps from PS1->PS2 or N64->GC. Graphical output is leveling out. That's why we need to change gameplay mechanices and inputs and other areas like physics. That's where the advancement will be.

It's fine if you don't like the controller or Nintendo. That's your opinion. I just happen to like their innovations with gaming. That's my opinion. To each their own, as the saying goes.

The Playstation 3 and Xbox 360 are the only real options for next generation gaming. Nintendo continues to flood the market with cheap inferior products and its best to just ignore them. Playstation 3 definutly wins for me just for the ability to watch high def movies and its full 1080p support.

Cheap, inferior products? This coming from the second powerful console this gen? (xbox is most, btw). Look at the DS, for example. That cheap, inferior hardware is beating out the powerful, superior PSP. Why? Because the games are good, the input system is innovative and new.

As I said earlier, Hi-Def is only good for those who can support it. Otherwise, you can't really tell the difference.

[Jimmy 345]

Are you forgetting how many glitches Sony had to make to the PS2's DVD Player due to how many problems it had? Hell, DVD Review sites needed to say if the DVD was actually playable in PS2s during its first year or two on the market. Sony's initial PS2 DVD Player was complete and utter crap, so yea, I'd say they'd have to make the Blu-Ray drive as glitch-free as possible, especially at that price point.

I think there is a difference. Sony used DVD because CD wasn' adequte for gaming space and they simply added movie playback as an afterthought. This time its different. Sony is using the Playstation 3 to sell Blu-Ray movie sales and using it for gaming is an afterthought. Blu-Ray isn't as needed today for gaming as DVD was back in 2000 (Though it can have some benfits in some cases). Since Sony is betting its future on the Blu-Ray format and since 90% of Blu-Ray players on the market will be Playstation 3s I believe Sony will try its best to make Playstation 3s Blu-Ray player not as glitchy as the Playstation 2 was with DVD. However I still expect better preformance on a standalone player. Since I am on a budget I can buy a Playstation 3 now and buy a quality Blu-Ray recorder a few years later when the price drops. Really at the moment I just want something that can play the discs at better then DVD quality. I have been holding off on some titles I want because I know its coming in Blu-Ray soon and I want to stop waiting and start buying again.

[Jimmy 345]

How so? Larger storage space? I don't see any other benifit. Most companies won't fill half that space anyways.

Size has nothing to do with power. Look at technology around you. Cellphones are getting smaller since advancement in technology = smaller chips. DVD players, CD players, Radios, etc... all forms of technology tend to get smaller and more efficient as they go along. And they don't become weaker for being smaller.

And the graphics? Have you looked at 360 graphics? We didn't see a huge leap in graphical power from the Xbox to the 360, unlike leaps from PS1->PS2 or N64->GC. Graphical output is leveling out. That's why we need to change gameplay mechanices and inputs and other areas like physics. That's where the advancement will be.

It's fine if you don't like the controller or Nintendo. That's your opinion. I just happen to like their innovations with gaming. That's my opinion. To each their own, as the saying goes.

Cheap, inferior products? This coming from the second powerful console this gen? (xbox is most, btw). Look at the DS, for example. That cheap, inferior hardware is beating out the powerful, superior PSP. Why? Because the games are good, the input system is innovative and new.

As I said earlier, Hi-Def is only good for those who can support it. Otherwise, you can't really tell the difference.

High def is the future I like a company that looks ahead at the way the market will be later instead of only focusing on launch. Plus over 60% of Xbox 360 owners own digital televisions so it will make a difference to most buyers.

The 360 came out only 4 years after the original Xbox while the Gamecube and Playstation 2 were 5.5 years ahead of there predisasers. So of course there isn't as much difference. Compare King Kong on the Xbox and Xbox 360 side by side and tell me there isn't a huge difference.

Blu-Rays larger storage space helps benefit really long games for having to be spread over two discs. Next gen games require more stoarge then current generation and even though DVD will still be enough space for a good majority of games having blue laser discs are a nice option if a devoloper really wants to create something amazing.

[William C. Maune]

Plus over 60% of Xbox 360 owners own digital televisions so it will make a difference to most buyers.

That statistic says nothing about HD making a difference to most buyers. It may mean that HDTV owners are more likely to buy an 360. It may mean that standard definition TV owners (still by far most consumers) are less likely to buy a 360. It may just be that HDTV owners have more disposable income (otherwise they wouldn't have an HDTV) and thus they also have the money to shell out for a 360.

[Jimmy 345]

That statistic says nothing about HD making a difference to most buyers. It may mean that HDTV owners are more likely to buy an 360. It may mean that standard definition TV owners (still by far most consumers) are less likely to buy a 360. It may just be that HDTV owners have more disposable income (otherwise they wouldn't have an HDTV) and thus they also have the money to shell out for a 360.

Many HDTVs are reletively inexpensive today and the price continues to fall. It means that yeah HDTV owners are usually much smarter then non-HDTV owners, say Im smug but so what, and are the ones most likely to buy game consoles first so the lack of High Definition will be a huge market disadvantage for the Revolution. In my view that percentage will be even higher for the Playstation 3 both due to its higher price point and its high definition movie ability and the fact that in that extra year more HDTVs have been sold. So people saying that it will only benefit those with HDTVs as a disadvantage must realize that HDTV owners are the vast majority or Sonys target market and Nintendo snubing this market could be the death of them.

[peacebyanymeans]

I'm not sure if I'll get this. It's still looks madly expensive...

[Adam Tyner]

It means that yeah HDTV owners are usually much smarter then non-HDTV owners, say Im smug but so whatI own two HDTVs, so I guess that makes me smarter than anyone here!

For that statement of yours to be smug, I think you'd have to actually own an HDTV, which, by your own admission, you do not. Despite not being able to take advantage of 720p or 1080i, somehow 1080p -- a resolution 99.6% of people who actually own an HDTV cannot use as input -- is the alpha and the omega for you.

You focus far too much on brand labels and specifications, and outlandish, illogical statements like "yeah HDTV owners are usually much smarter then non-HDTV owners" based on the fact that HDTVs aren't unattainably expensive (???!?!!?!?!?!) make me wonder if this is really the way you feel or if you're just trolling. I'd put money on the fact that an extremely large percentage of people who own HDTVs (maybe even the majority) didn't buy them because they're interested in high-definition so much that they wanted a big TV, and the only big TVs you can buy are in HD.

[Duke]

So people saying that it will only benefit those with HDTVs as a disadvantage must realize that HDTV owners are the vast majority
You're not getting it. HDTV's are NOT the vast majority. Even IF that 60% of XBox owners thing is true, that's still 10-20% of the American population, if that. Most of the 80-90% own standard definition TVs.

About the only video game systems that has penetrated Americans extremely deeply are the NES, the GameBoy, and the PS2. I don't see any of these next-gen systems having THAT large a salebase.

[Jimmy 345]

I own two HDTVs, so I guess that makes me smarter than anyone here!

For that statement of yours to be smug, I think you'd have to actually own an HDTV, which, by your own admission, you do not. Despite not being able to take advantage of 720p or 1080i, somehow 1080p -- a resolution 99.6% of people who actually own an HDTV cannot use as input -- is the alpha and the omega for you.

You focus far too much on brand labels and specifications, and outlandish, illogical statements like "yeah HDTV owners are usually much smarter then non-HDTV owners" based on the fact that HDTVs aren't unattainably expensive (???!?!!?!?!?!) make me wonder if this is really the way you feel or if you're just trolling. I'd put money on the fact that an extremely large percentage of people who own HDTVs (maybe even the majority) didn't buy them because they're interested in high-definition so much that they wanted a big TV, and the only big TVs you can buy are in HD.

That statement was a joke in case you didn't releaze.

[Noukon]

That statement was a joke in case you didn't releaze.

"I was joking" is the worst way to try and take back an argument you've since realized is completely unreasonable.

I don't know why you're still on about this. It's nice that certain consoles are emphasizing HD, since their early adopters will be wealthier people who have already bought HD sets, but adding great expense to a console just to emphasize HD throttles its chances at market success.

Microsoft did relatively well with the 360, given that its HD features don't come at a significant premium. Nintendo is extremely smart to be ignoring HD at this point and emphasizing that their system will output at ED resolution; it will still look good on HDTVs, but its lower price will likely garner it some huge mainstream sales (just look at the DS -- it's the same basic philosophy).

Sony, on the other hand, has let their arrogance get the better of them, and they're making some extremely foolhardy decisions.

[Jimmy 345]

"I was joking" is the worst way to try and take back an argument you've since realized is completely unreasonable.

I don't know why you're still on about this. It's nice that certain consoles are emphasizing HD, since their early adopters will be wealthier people who have already bought HD sets, but adding great expense to a console just to emphasize HD throttles its chances at market success.

Microsoft did relatively well with the 360, given that its HD features don't come at a significant premium. Nintendo is extremely smart to be ignoring HD at this point and emphasizing that their system will output at ED resolution; it will still look good on HDTVs, but its lower price will likely garner it some huge mainstream sales (just look at the DS -- it's the same basic philosophy).

Sony, on the other hand, has let their arrogance get the better of them, and they're making some extremely foolhardy decisions.

The joke was a reference to a recent South Park episode. Plus I don't own an HDTV so why would I seriously insult myself. Of course I was joking. What I meant to say is that HDTV owners are usually more technolgically knowledgeable. I just said it in a joking way to sound extra smug to combine with the cloud from Clooneys Oscar exceptance speak. Then again a joke isn't funny if you have to explain it so I guess my bad.

[The Guitar Slayer]

Hmm.

If the PS3 is going to cost that much, I'll wait for a bit. Too poor for that kind of thing. The Rev might suit me fine. It'll probably be cheap enough and since it's backwards compatible, I could get myself GC games. The HDTV thing is a non-issue, considering the newest tv I have is 7 years old; I'm not shelling out cash to replace a television that still works. That thing will run til it explodes, and until then, I'm just not interested in wasting money.

Besides, my dad still buys all his movies and documentaries on VHS -- he still doesn't believe in DVDs (he owns the Cream concert at Albert Hall, and that's it). Hell, most of his albums are still on cassette, eight-track, and vinyl. He plays his Atari more than he does our PS2 (that doubles as a doorstop when I'm away from home). My family isn't going to drop $500+ on something like a PS3 when we don't own a DVD player (other than what's built into the second gen PS2 and our laptops) or a big ol' fancy TV.

[Mynd Hed]

If you don't want blu-ray buy a 360. Its that simple.

If everybody who doesn't want Blu-Ray buys a 360, the PS3 will tank miserably. It's THAT simple.

[Artimus Gigan]

If everybody who doesn't want Blu-Ray buys a 360, the PS3 will tank miserably. It's THAT simple.
Microsoft is planning on making a Blue-Ray addon for the console though

[Adam Tyner]

Microsoft is planning on making a Blue-Ray addon for the console thoughI think the way it was worded was that they could make one if they wanted to, but there weren't any firm plans one way or the other.

[Noukon]

Microsoft is planning on making a Blue-Ray addon for the console though

No, they've said they're working on an HD-DVD add-on. They're lying, anyway; Microsoft's stake is in both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD failing, so that they can drive digitally downloaded content. By confusing the marketplace with vague announcements that don't come to fruition, they sabotage both HD media formats.