Microsoft's apparently making a handheld...

[Duke]

Just watched this on G4's Attack of the Show video. Microsoft's new gaming machine is apparently going to be PSP-like and is going to take on the iPod as well as the DS. They've moved over all of the XBox 360 team and their earliest projected release date is likely sometime in late 2007.

No clue if this will be good, but if they have enough game support and don't have any UMD crap, it should at least do better than the PSP.

The original source came from Dean Takahashi from the Mercury News Reporter in San Jose.

[Super Leviathan]

$50 says that Microsoft's Handheld disappears in half the time it took for Nokia's N-Gage

[peacebyanymeans]

$50 saying that it'll probably do okay, but not as good as the DS. Xbox is a strong brand name.

I see your $50 and raise you $75 that one of the titles coming will either be a port of Halo/Halo 2 OR some really, really bad flash game "in between Halo 1 and 2/2 and 3"

[veemonjosh]

I add in my copy of Captain Comic for the NES to this bet (jeez, it can't even FIT into the system!), and say that this will murder Nintendo. Then weaken Sony. All the Microsoft fans will laugh, then eventually realize there isn't any new gimmicks to add variety to the video game world. Then the video game market will enter a second crash. And Sega and/or Nintendo will emerge from the rubble and create a new world order.

Of course, this is the worst/best case senario.

[Artimus Gigan]

I says 100 that the X Box Handheld will mainly fight out agains tthe PSP in America and both will battle furriously for the 1st and 2nd place spot

I then split my hundred and put 50 into this situation:
The thing crashes and burns and we styill have the DS and PSP fighting for the top spot

[William C. Maune]

I says 100 that the X Box Handheld will mainly fight out agains tthe PSP in America and both will battle furriously for the 1st and 2nd place spot

The PSP would have to step it up to make that scenario. The way things are now, it would be a pretty strong 3-way battle if the X-Box handheld does catch on.

[Artimus Gigan]

The PSP would have to step it up to make that scenario. The way things are now, it would be a pretty strong 3-way battle if the X-Box handheld does catch on.
The PSP is currently outselling the DS though and from the looks of things they are in the process of brining up the quality of original games and eventually a hardware upgrade

[William C. Maune]

The PSP is currently outselling the DS though and from the looks of things they are in the process of brining up the quality of original games and eventually a hardware upgrade

If I remember correctly the PSP isn't outselling the DS by very much. Both systems have new hardware on the horizon and both have a bunch of good games coming out.

[Dr Crocodile]

The PSP is currently outselling the DS though and from the looks of things they are in the process of brining up the quality of original games and eventually a hardware upgrade

BARELY. It's neck and neck for PSP and DS in the US and there's really no way to know how things will swing in the future. A PSP revision is rumoured but a DS one is confirmed so who knows how that will affect sales. Both are pumping out quality software so I see no clear advantage here. PSP has already used the GTA card. Daxter looks great, the Mega Man remakes are HOT and the New Ghost + Goblins should be great. But the DS just came out with online Tetris and Metroid (which is amazing IMO), New Super Mario Bros. is around the corner and the DS still has the Pokemon bomb up its sleeve. It's anybody's game in the US at this point in time.

[Artimus Gigan]

BARELY. It's neck and neck for PSP and DS in the US and there's really no way to know how things will swing in the future. A PSP revision is rumoured but a DS one is confirmed so who knows how that will affect sales. Both are pumping out quality software so I see no clear advantage here. PSP has already used the GTA card. Daxter looks great, the Mega Man remakes are HOT and the New Ghost + Goblins should be great. But the DS just came out with online Tetris and Metroid (which is amazing IMO), New Super Mario Bros. is around the corner and the DS still has the Pokemon bomb up its sleeve. It's anybody's game in the US at this point in time. Prehaps, but the PSP seems to have cornered alot of the large genres and are hauling them in large numbers

Already the System's RPG library is higher than the GBA was at it's first year in America. And the GBA used RPGs as one of it's factors of success. I mean Final Fantasy 7:Crisis core may end up doing to the PSP what the original did with the PSX. There's also the Stratagy Genre which is becomming one of the system's strong points, Metal Gear Acid 2 has gotten nothing but high scores and Field Commander is coming out next month and that is certainly a promising title.

And those EA games apparently score high on the slaes charts on a consistant baisis

It also is brining alot of Fighters and Racers which Nintendo essentialy ignored over many handheld generations, and from the DS release scheduel they certainly don't seem to be pumping them out any time soon. Guilty Gear is the only one that will hit America, and Mario Kart is still the only good racer on there.

Alot of the analyst reports are predicting that the PSP will eventually overtake the DS, so that's what I'm basing it on

If the Upgraded PSP fixes any of the flaws that were found with the original and has it at a similar pricepoint to the DSLite, then it's definetly going to speed ahead. The handheld market could mimic the console market, where as it's just Sony and Microsoft competing game and technologywise and Nintendo is just by the sidelines. Ofcourse if the DS is axed in favor of the GBA2 and it;s out when the Microsoft handheld hits, then we have an ideal situation of 3 well matched machines. Because the GBA 2 is going to definetly have to be on the PSP level of technology power with the two other companies. It's not like the consoles where ported games won't take that much of a hit qualitywise. It's more night and day with the handhelds

[Chad Bonin]

Prehaps, but the PSP seems to have cornered alot of the large genres and are hauling them in large numbers

Already the System's RPG library is higher than the GBA was at it's first year in America. And the GBA used RPGs as one of it's factors of success. There's also the Stratagy Genre which is becomming one of the system's strong points, Metal Gear Acid 2 has gotten nothing but high scores and Field Commander is coming out next month and that is certainly a promising title.

And those EA games apparently score high on the slaes charts on a consistant baisis

It also is brining alot of Fighters and Racers which Nintendo essentialy ignored over many handheld generations, and from the DS release scheduel they certainly don't seem to be pumping them out any time soon. Guilty Gear is the only one that will hit America, and Mario Kart is still the only good racer on there.

Alot of the analyst reports are predicting that the PSP will eventually overtake the DS, so that's what I'm basing it on
Oh, I love how your posts tend to ignore the DS' strong suits.

The DS is not a portable console, which is what the PSP is striving for. PSP, it makes sense for them to have console ports and console-style games?

The DS?

Dear god, give me the portable power of Tetris. The quirkiness of a Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney. The ease of play Animal Crossing in the middle of class. The dating sim of Sprung. Games that just wouldn't work the same not on the DS, Kirby Canvas Curse, Nintendogs, Pac-Pix...

If the Upgraded PSP fixes any of the flaws that were found with the original and has it at a similar pricepoint to the DSLite, then it's definetly going to speed ahead. The handheld market could mimic the console market, where as it's just Sony and Microsoft competing game and technologywise and Nintendo is just by the sidelines.
If by "fixing any of the flaws" means "giving it a decent battery life and a whole new library of games made for the portable world" and by "Similar pricepoint to the DSLite" being "nothing like the pricepoint change from DS to DSLite" (because, A] Sony ain't going to release a $140-ish PSP and B] Sony would be a fool to release a system at a higher price point, given it's already high price).

And, remember, Nintendo has said they're not in this console fight, or at least the next. While Sony and Microsoft are waging wars on the beach (Microsoft probably pulling a crushing blow to the Sony forces... but that's for another thread), Nintendo's packed it's boat and are sailing for the high seas for new adventures: in their mind, the beach has become too... stale.

[Artimus Gigan]

Oh, I love how your posts tend to ignore the DS' strong suits.

The DS is not a portable console, which is what the PSP is striving for. PSP, it makes sense for them to have console ports and console-style games?

The DS?

Dear god, give me the portable power of Tetris. The quirkiness of a Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney. The ease of play Animal Crossing in the middle of class. The dating sim of Sprung. Games that just wouldn't work the same not on the DS, Kirby Canvas Curse, Nintendogs, Pac-Pix...


If by "fixing any of the flaws" means "giving it a decent battery life and a whole new library of games made for the portable world" and by "Similar pricepoint to the DSLite" being "nothing like the pricepoint change from DS to DSLite" (because, A] Sony ain't going to release a $140-ish PSP and B] Sony would be a fool to release a system at a higher price point, given it's already high price).

And, remember, Nintendo has said they're not in this console fight, or at least the next. While Sony and Microsoft are waging wars on the beach (Microsoft probably pulling a crushing blow to the Sony forces... but that's for another thread), Nintendo's packed it's boat and are sailing for the high seas for new adventures: in their mind, the beach has become too... stale.
Tetris hasn't shaped up to be a big player, alot of the reveiws say it's the same old thing with a new coat of paint, it's certainly not a Mariokart success.

Console games work on handhelds since the ability to save anywhere is being commonly implemented, Daxter is a console length platformer and you can play of any length of time and stop and begin right where you left off.

So they're really going to have to kick things up a bit, and I'm a bit skeptical on the whole baisis of originallity in games that many people clamor for

because sofar all of the recent good games have been past formulas with just new/refined ingredients added, I mean Dragon Quest 8 is a prime example of this. Even games like Psychonaughts, Katamari or Shaddow of Colosus can have it's origins tracked back to ealier games of past years. And none of these games don't even come close to the defintion of bad and are very enjoyable.

So the intention of innovation and originality is questionable at best. Sofar there hasn't been alot of fruit beared on either, what meager offerings there are, do not stack up against what already exists.

[Chad Bonin]

Tetris hasn't shaped up to be a big player, alot of the rveiws say it's the same old thing with a new coat of paint, it's certainly not a Mariokart success
Mind you, that "same old thing" is the sole reason WE HAVE A HANDHELD MARKET. And please, point out a review that gives it less than an 8/10. Everything I've seen is at least 9/10 or higher, with comments like "Outstanding!". Trust me, I've read MANY reviews awaiting this thing.

And the game is just out for a day or two, MAX. Saying it hasn't "shaped up to be a big player" is like saying a baseball player "hasn't made a hit yet" despite just stepping up to plate.

Console games work on handhelds since the ability to save anywhere is being commonly implemented, Daxter is a console length platformer and you can play of any length of time and stop and begin right where you left off.
Can I play Daxter during a break in class, put it in "Hold" mode, throw it in my bag, open it up five hours later and WITHIN SECONDS be instantly right were I was?

I can do that with Tetris DS. Just replace "Hold Button" with "Closing The Damn Thing".

[Artimus Gigan]

Mind you, that "same old thing" is the sole reason WE HAVE A HANDHELD MARKET. And please, point out a review that gives it less than an 8/10. Everything I've seen is at least 9/10 or higher, with comments like "Outstanding!". Trust me, I've read MANY reviews awaiting this thing.

And the game is just out for a day or two, MAX. Saying it hasn't "shaped up to be a big player" is like saying a baseball player "hasn't made a hit yet" despite just stepping up to plate.


Can I play Daxter during a break in class, put it in "Hold" mode, throw it in my bag, open it up five hours later and WITHIN SECONDS be instantly right were I was?

I can do that with Tetris DS. Just replace "Hold Button" with "Closing The Damn Thing".
Gamespot gave Tetris a 7.5
http://www.gamespot.com/ds/puzzle/tetris/review.html?sid=6146173

You save in daxter like you would in any other game, you can save, turn the system off or put it into sleep mode and begin pretty much where you left off. Consideirng the game is one big world and not zones it really raises the bar for portable platformers. Other companies could learn from this and implement it into future games.

[Dr Crocodile]

Prehaps, but the PSP seems to have cornered alot of the large genres and are hauling them in large numbers. Already the System's RPG library is higher than the GBA was at it's first year in America. And the GBA used RPGs as one of it's factors of success. I mean Final Fantasy 7:Crisis core may end up doing to the PSP what the original did with the PSX.

I'll just trust you're right that the PSP RPG library so far is larger than the GBA's at the same point in time. Does that suddenly mean the DS won't get any rpgs now? The GBA in time grew to become an rpg powerhouse. I see no reason why the DS won't be the same. Let's not forget about the Pokemon series either. As long as Pokemon DP brings the quality, it WILL stomp all over FF7:CC. Which brings me to another point: we've got NO details on that game what so ever and looking at other works in the FFVII compliation project (like Dirge of Cerberus) which are pretty crappy I don't know if we can even expect a good game. Hell even if FF7: CC was good, it certainly won't do FF7 numbers. FF7 was a game that pretty much introduced a genre to many American gamers. You aren't going to replicate that effect.


There's also the Stratagy Genre which is becomming one of the system's strong points, Metal Gear Acid 2 has gotten nothing but high scores and Field Commander is coming out next month and that is certainly a promising title.

So did Advance Wars Dual Strike suddenly cease to exsist? Or Age of Empires? Battles of Prince of Persia? Any future installments in the Fire Emblem series? The DS will in all likelyhood will continue the GBA's strong strategy/strategy RPG legacy.


And those EA games apparently score high on the slaes charts on a consistant baisis.

Yep EA games do well on the PSP. That's always been a fact and that's not likely to change. It's easy for EA for throw a downgraded PS2 port on the PSP and lords know EA puts no effort into it's DS games.


It also is brining alot of Fighters and Racers which Nintendo essentialy ignored over many handheld generations, and from the DS release schedule they certainly don't seem to be pumping them out any time soon. Guilty Gear is the only one that will hit America, and Mario Kart is still the only good racer on there.

No I'm thinking these are genres YOU ignored on previous Nintendo handhelds. The GBA had plenty of racing games and a fair share, though not huge amount, of fighting games. In all likelyhood the PSP will have a larger fighting library and racing library. But, each system has their strength and weaknesses. In all likelyhood, the DS will have a far larger and stronger puzzle game library. I also wouldn't try to point to Gamespot as a sign of Tetris weakness. Gamespot is the outlier to Tetris DS and game it pretty much the lowest score out of all websites and magzines. Not to say they aren't entitled to their opinion (Though I don't consider "It's Tetris" a valid complaint otherwise you could say that about any and every remake or new entry in a franchise.) but they are far outside the majority opinion. I also like how you decree Tetris DS won't have MK success when it's only been out 2 days. Will it be super successful? Who knows. You sure don't as of right now though.


Alot of the analyst reports are predicting that the PSP will eventually overtake the DS, so that's what I'm basing it on


See I was tempted to just stop reading here but I figured I shouldn't be so disrespectful. When it comes to predictions, analysts are FULL OF CRAP. This is even more true for video game analysts. I've seen some of the stuff the've put out recently and it's laughable. I can't believe you find any of them credible.


If the Upgraded PSP fixes any of the flaws that were found with the original and has it at a similar pricepoint to the DSLite, then it's definetly going to speed ahead. The handheld market could mimic the console market, where as it's just Sony and Microsoft competing game and technologywise and Nintendo is just by the sidelines. Ofcourse if the DS is axed in favor of the GBA2 and it;s out when the Microsoft handheld hits, then we have an ideal situation of 3 well matched machines. Because the GBA 2 is going to definetly have to be on the PSP level of technology power with the two other companies. It's not like the consoles where ported games won't take that much of a hit qualitywise. It's more night and day with the handhelds

Lets not compare the console to the handheld market. There are too many differences for that to be a valid comparison. Oh and why would a revised PSP be anywhere near the price of the DS? What basis is there to think that? I also like how you don't even cosnider for a second mention or think about the DS Lite.


So they're really going to have to kick things up a bit, and I'm a bit skeptical on the whole baisis of originallity in games that many people clamor for because sofar all of the recent good games have been past formulas with just new/refined ingredients added, I mean Dragon Quest 8 is a prime example of this. Even games like Psychonaughts, Katamari or Shaddow of Colosus can have it's origins tracked back to ealier games of past years. And none of these games don't even come close to the defintion of bad and are very enjoyable. So the intention of innovation and originality is questionable at best. So far there hasn't been alot of fruit beared on either, what meager offerings there are, do not stack up against what already exists.

Ok now you're making my head hurt. Katamari, Psychonauts and Shadow of the Collossus aren't orignal games? Are you serious? Of course they are. Be it in their excecution, premise, presentation, concept, gameplay, look and artsyle, etc. these games all do things few games currently do. Of course they have links to older games. Games aren't made in vaccums. Successful concepts and ideas of the past stick around because they work. It's the natural evolution of gaming, human knowledge or heck ANYTHING. Originality and innovation, be it from Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft or whoever, are what keep this industry going and changing and produce some of the best games this industry has seen or will see. The fact that you'd argue that originality and and innovation have questionable intetions saddens and confuses me.

[Tak Mazé]

Are you talking about MS Origami? It's just a super-powered tablet PC is all. It's hardly portable judging from the size. It has the potential to do very well, providing it's priced right.

[Kametsou]

Are you talking about MS Origami? It's just a super-powered tablet PC is all. It's hardly portable judging from the size. It has the potential to do very well, providing it's priced right.

Yeah, I think he was talking about that. But heaven knows, I could be wrong.

[Duke]

Are you talking about MS Origami? It's just a super-powered tablet PC is all. It's hardly portable judging from the size. It has the potential to do very well, providing it's priced right.
No, the Origami is different, according to the report. This is more of an Oragami II or an Oragami Lite.

[Artimus Gigan]

Ok now you're making my head hurt. Katamari, Psychonauts and Shadow of the Collossus aren't orignal games? Are you serious? Of course they are. Be it in their excecution, premise, presentation, concept, gameplay, look and artsyle, etc. these games all do things few games currently do. Of course they have links to older games. Games aren't made in vaccums. Successful concepts and ideas of the past stick around because they work. It's the natural evolution of gaming, human knowledge or heck ANYTHING. Originality and innovation, be it from Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft or whoever, are what keep this industry going and changing and produce some of the best games this industry has seen or will see. The fact that you'd argue that originality and and innovation have questionable intetions saddens and confuses me.
Katamari is really just an upgraded version of Pac-Man that goes by some slightly different rules of play(i.e. beat the clock and an ever changing maze), but it has moving obsticals to avoid and item clearing just the same.

Psychonaughts does nothing all that new in terms of platformer gameplay, but it has very welldone levels and atmosphere

Shadow of Collossus shares alot of Aspects with the Zelda series, but the main character is more stripped down in terms of options, in exchange for doing more with the baisics(i.e. jumping, climbing). Now it may not have the dungeons like Zelda, but the Boss battles play out in a similar fashion(hit the glowing weak spot and use the preset fight pattern to advantage)

By Original I ment truely original, which was more or less what I was refering to, as in things entirely new with no relation to anything else past whatsoever. In other words the first of it's kind.

but many games take already exisiting aspects and just present them in a different form or order, which is what you re-stated

Also the PSP seems in the near future will offer more RPGs than the DS, now things could change from quarter to quarter, but I was more or less comparring to how things are current and essentialy took the angle of building upon the situation we have now. And used some analytical reports as back-up for the baisis of the argument. It's just a possible scenario, that relied on alot of variables(mainly the consistancy of the release scheduel), but I also said the Microsoft Handheld could also crash and burn. It's more or less a What if/Could if

The GBA did not have the same type of quality of figthers and racers though, games like Crazy Racers were allright but Mario Kart and Fzero were the only high quality racers on there, where as the PSP had Ridge Racer and Wipeout Pure from the get-go and is keeping the genre going on the system on a more regular basis than the GBA. The GBA fighters like Guilty gear and SFA3 were nerfed however, and ones like Mortal Kombat Advance were pretty meh in execution. Now granated the MW compilation MK sucked, but Darkstalkers and SFA3M were pretty much spot on, and games like Powerstone and other Capcom fighters are making their way over there as are the SNK games and Namco games like Tekken.

[Mynd Hed]

Katamari is really just an upgraded version of Pac-Man that goes by some slightly different rules of play(i.e. beat the clock and an ever changing maze), but it has moving obsticals to avoid and item clearing just the same.

Psychonaughts does nothing all that new in terms of platformer gameplay, but it has very welldone levels and atmosphere

Shadow of Collossus shares alot of Aspects with the Zelda series, but the main character is more stripped down in terms of options, in exchange for doing more with the baisics(i.e. jumping, climbing). Now it may not have the dungeons like Zelda, but the Boss battles play out in a similar fashion(hit the glowing weak spot and use the preset fight pattern to advantage)

By Original I ment truely original, which was more or less what I was refering to, as in things entirely new with no relation to anything else past whatsoever.

By that standard, there's never been an original game of any kind on any system, EVER.

I'm trying to think of a single title that doesn't share any aspects of gameplay, graphics, art style, music, or plot with any other game in the history of gaming or build on the groundwork of a single predecessor, and do you know what I come up with? NOTHING.

Tell me, please, if Katamari and Shadow of the Colossus aren't original enough for you, what in the name of mighty Zeus IS?

[Chad Bonin]

Katamari is really just an upgraded version of Pac-Man that goes by some slightly different rules of play(i.e. beat the clock and an ever changing maze), but it has moving obsticals to avoid and item clearing just the same.

Psychonaughts does nothing all that new in terms of platformer gameplay, but it has very welldone levels and atmosphere

Shadow of Collossus shares alot of Aspects with the Zelda series, but the main character is more stripped down in terms of options, in exchange for doing more with the baisics(i.e. jumping, climbing). Now it may not have the dungeons like Zelda, but the Boss battles play out in a similar fashion(hit the glowing weak spot and use the preset fight pattern to advantage)

By Original I ment truely original, which was more or less what I was refering to, as in things entirely new with no relation to anything else past whatsoever.
On your basis, name three purely original games in the current gen.

Also the PSP seems in the near future will offer more RPGs than the DS, now things could change from quarter to quarter, but I was more or elss comparring to how things are current. And used some analytical reports as back-up for the baisis of the argument. It's just a possible scenario, that relied on alot of variables(mainly the consistancy of the release scheduel), but I also said the Microsoft Handheld could also crash and burn.
So, what you're saying is that the PSP has more RPGs now than the DS ever will, and that this small, small segment of the gaming populace can decide a war.

The GBA did not have the same type of quality of figthers and racers though, games like Crazy Racers were allright but Mario Kart and Fzero were the only high quality racers on there,
Yeah, it's not like Racing Gears Advance got an 8.9 from IGN.

The GBA fighters like Guilty gear and SFA3 were nerfed however, and ones like Mortal Kombat Advance were pretty meh in execution.
I can play SFA3^ (Street Fighter Alpha 3 was not released for the GBA; Street Fighter Alpha 3 Upper was) on the GBA; I can not play SFA3 Max on the PSP. And they must not have released Super Street Fighter II Turbo Revival or Tekken or King Of Fighters or anything...

Now granated the MW compilation MK sucked, but Darkstalkers and SFA3M were pretty much spot on, and games like Powerstone and other Capcom fighters are making their way over there as are the SNK games and Namco games like Tekken.
Just because they're on there doesn't mean the controller works for them.

[Artimus Gigan]

Tell me, please, if Katamari and Shadow of the Colossus aren't original enough for you, what in the name of mighty Zeus IS?
That's the thing, by declaring originality in many aspects the modern games arn't, the only truely original games were the ones from decades ago because they were the first of their kind. They can be original to an extent, but not able to attain true originality because other games did it first.


Also Knux, I'm saying the PSP seems to be getting more RPGS from what's listed on the release sceduel, RPGS were a signifigant factor, not the deciding factor. But more or less a factor to keep in mind with. A deciding factor is usualy made up of a conglomerate of other factors.

Also you can play the fighters on the PSP, the PSP Dpad is just average, not horrid and unresponcive as you make it out to be.

[Chad Bonin]

That's the thing, by declaring originality in many aspects the modern games arn't, the only truely original games were the ones from decades ago because they were the first of their kind. They can be original to an extent, but not able to attain true originality because other games did it first.


Also Knux, I'm saying the PSP seems to be getting more RPGS from what's listed on the release sceduel, RPGS were a signifigant factor, not the deciding factor. But more or less a factor to keep in mind with. A deciding factor is usualy made up of a conglomerate of other smaller factors

Also you can play the fighters on the PSP, the PSP Dpad is just average, not horrid and unresponcive as you make it out to be.
Once again, we've been through this before. Now you are trying to tell me my opinion (and Capcom's, as they saw fit to try to fix the D-Pad). I never said it was unresponsive. Therefore, I've officially considered your argument null and void, but to say one thing...

You think RPGs are a significant factor in America? Look at sales; sports games are number 1, first-person shooters are number 2, then action, then racing, and then you go down the list and you get RPGs, which might be one more slot higher than fighters.

Now, what system just came out with a massive, wireless, multiplayer FPS?

[EinBebop]

If I recall correctly, people weren't that optimistic when they heard Microsoft was making a console. ;)

[Artimus Gigan]

Once again, we've been through this before. Now you are trying to tell me my opinion (and Capcom's, as they saw fit to try to fix the D-Pad). I never said it was unresponsive. Therefore, I've officially considered your argument null and void, but to say one thing...

You think RPGs are a significant factor in America? Look at sales; sports games are number 1, first-person shooters are number 2, then action, then racing, and then you go down the list and you get RPGs, which might be one more slot higher than fighters.

Now, what system just came out with a massive, wireless, multiplayer FPS?
Eh,both handhelds have good FPS, Metroid Prime is the DS Equivelent to SOCOM for the PSP

Madden has been number 3, Grand Theft Auto has been number 2 for many months on the handheld sales charts with the Top Spot being Mario Kart. Currently the list is 50/50 for both handhelds with no genre taking absolute control.

Also you said "just because they're on there doesn't mean the controler will work for them" I took that as you saying the controls were unresponcive.

[Noukon]

You think RPGs are a significant factor in America? Look at sales; sports games are number 1, first-person shooters are number 2, then action, then racing, and then you go down the list and you get RPGs, which might be one more slot higher than fighters.

Thank you.

It bothers the hell out of me when people treat RPGs as being a significant driver of system sales. They're a nice treat for those of us that love them, but they have no mainstream appeal. Even huge RPG names like Final Fantasy won't sell a truly significant number of systems.

Nintendogs drove DS sales. GTA drove PSP sales. Mainstream exclusives, some of which hardcore gamers aren't even likely to touch, are what sell systems.

[Mynd Hed]

That's the thing, by declaring originality in many aspects the modern games arn't, the only truely original games were the ones from decades ago because they were the first of their kind. They can be original to an extent, but not able to attain true originality because other games did it first.

Even then nothing is original by your standard. Pac-Man wasn't original because it was just an electronic version of a hedge maze. Pong wasn't original because it's an electronic version of table tennis. Mario wasn't original because in 1947 a mentally disturbed man in the Bronx was charged with cruelty to animals for hopping up and down on the backs of turtles. Why don't we just all quit ever using the word "original" altogether, since it clearly denotes a standard to which no human endeavor can ever possibly live up?

Unless we could use the term "original" to denote a REASONABLE standard in which MANY of a games features are unique and exciting instead of unreasonably demanding that ALL of them must be completely free from any and all influence from previous titles... oh, wait, no, that's crazy talk. Never mind. Forget I said that.

[EinBebop]

You think RPGs are a significant factor in America? Look at sales; sports games are number 1, first-person shooters are number 2, then action, then racing, and then you go down the list and you get RPGs, which might be one more slot higher than fighters.Not an accurate comparison. RPG's cost more to make and thus get made less frequently. But her fans are hungry, and the system that delivers two or three reputable RPGs, or one huge one, I'm certain sees a significant increase in sales, contrary to Noukon's opinion.

The only proof is numbers, and we have a single huge release right now... is Xbox 360 seeing a sales spike with the release of Oblivion?

[Noukon]

But her fans are hungry, and the system that delivers two or three reputable RPGs, or one huge one, I'm certain sees a significant increase in sales, contrary to Noukon's opinion.

"Significant" is subjective. I'm sure the PS2 sold through a ton of hardware by virtue of the Final Fantasy titles released on it, but relative to the 100 million total PS2s sold, it is insignificant.

One Madden game sells exponentially more systems than a handful of popular RPGs.

[Chad Bonin]

Not an accurate comparison. RPG's cost more to make and thus get made less frequently. But her fans are hungry, and the system that delivers two or three reputable RPGs, or one huge one, I'm certain sees a significant increase in sales, contrary to Noukon's opinion.

The only proof is numbers, and we have a single huge release right now... is Xbox 360 seeing a sales spike with the release of Oblivion?
It's not even a week old. And given the XBox 360's constant manufacturing problems (well, not problems, but lack of seeing them on shelves) kinda makes the 360 null and void. For the immediate future, anytime someone SEES one, they'll buy it. They may buy Oblivion, but they may also have been trying to get a 360 since November.
Thank you.

It bothers the hell out of me when people treat RPGs as being a significant driver of system sales. They're a nice treat for those of us that love them, but they have no mainstream appeal. Even huge RPG names like Final Fantasy won't sell a truly significant number of systems.

Nintendogs drove DS sales. GTA drove PSP sales. Mainstream exclusives, some of which hardcore gamers aren't even likely to touch, are what sell systems.
We always tend to compliment each other, but I gotta point out one thing...

Grand Theft Auto did NOT drive PSP sales, which is slightly scary for the PSP given that it was their trump card.

[EinBebop]

One Madden game sells exponentially more systems than a handful of popular RPGs.It might drive sales overall, but as a cross-platform title it doesn't pull sales from competitors, whereas RPGs are almost always exclusive to a particular system.

[Noukon]

Grand Theft Auto did NOT drive PSP sales, which is slightly scary for the PSP given that it was their trump card.

Yeah, you're right. I guess I tend to forget about LCS' performance. GTA would be better examplified as driving PS2 sales.

It might drive sales overall, but as a cross-platform title it doesn't pull sales from competitors, whereas RPGs are almost always exclusive to a particular system.

The point is that RPGs do not pull huge sales numbers. Having a selection of them on a system is certainly an advantage, but to say that they're hugely vital to a system's hardware sales is just plain wrong. They are one of the less important genres.

[EinBebop]

...but to say that they're hugely vital to a system's hardware sales is just plain wrong. They are one of the less important genres.I wouldn't call them hugely vital, but I think it's only less important because it's so underrepresented, each system not offering much to get players excited either way. But while digging around for sales figures, I found a chart that listed RPG sales as making up 10% of all video game sales, which seems pretty large when you consider how few are out there. Anyway, I don't want to start going in circles on this, and I'm biased anyway... so I'll just drop it now. :)

[Artimus Gigan]

Even then nothing is original by your standard. Pac-Man wasn't original because it was just an electronic version of a hedge maze. Pong wasn't original because it's an electronic version of table tennis. Mario wasn't original because in 1947 a mentally disturbed man in the Bronx was charged with cruelty to animals for hopping up and down on the backs of turtles. Why don't we just all quit ever using the word "original" altogether, since it clearly denotes a standard to which no human endeavor can ever possibly live up?

Unless we could use the term "original" to denote a REASONABLE standard in which MANY of a games features are unique and exciting instead of unreasonably demanding that ALL of them must be completely free from any and all influence from previous titles... oh, wait, no, that's crazy talk. Never mind. Forget I said that.
That's the entire point I was trying to make

Originality is a term that gets thrown around alot, but in it's purist form nothing that is held in good standard would be able to qualify.

It's kinda like a Wabi-Sabi thing more or less when it comes to originality for games(or any other form of media for that matter). It's not a bad thing by no means, it's just the way things work. I mean there's only 30 something plot archtypes created and that stood way back during Anchient Greece and hasn't changed since.

[Noukon]

I wouldn't call them hugely vital, but I think it's only less important because it's so underrepresented, each system not offering much to get players excited either way. But while digging around for sales figures, I found a chart that listed RPG sales as making up 10% of all video game sales, which seems pretty large when you consider how few are out there. Anyway, I don't want to start going in circles on this, and I'm biased anyway... so I'll just drop it now. :)

Oh yeah, I wouldn't disagree that RPGs are relevant. Some people just like to prop them up as just about the most important thing to a system's success, though, which annoys me. I do loves me some RPGs, but they're niche fare compared to the mainstream content that really drives hardware sales.

[Artimus Gigan]

Oh yeah, I wouldn't disagree that RPGs are relevant. Some people just like to prop them up as just about the most important thing to a system's success, though, which annoys me. I do loves me some RPGs, but they're niche fare compared to the mainstream content that really drives hardware sales.
I think it more or less depends ont he series, ARPGS like Zelda are far from nitche(it did infact hold the world record for a time for most reserved game when OoT was the most recent)

And PC game sales are pretty much FPS and MMORPGS to an even split

All things considered when you beat a well made RPG, you certainly get your money's worth with the game extending usualy 50+ hours

Adventure games however seem to not have their fair shake at things and are definetly more nitche compared to many of the genres, Pheonix Wright, Longest Journey, Trace Memory, Lost in The Blue, and such are all good games, but very few are in delevopement

but I'm sure that alot of people would certainly give their first born for a Shenmue III on either of the next-gen systems.

[Chad Bonin]

I think it more or less depends ont he series, ARPGS like Zelda are far from nitche(it did infact hold the world record for a time for most reserved game when OoT was the most recent)
Factor in that Ocarina Of Time had a pre-order bonus and the fact that RPGs are harder to get (I would preorder an RPG before I would and FPS, because the FPS will have a higher print run).

And PC game sales are pretty much FPS and MMORPGS to an even split
MMORPGs, a branch that's barely been in use on consoles until the advent of XBox Live, Nintendo Wi-Fi Connect, and PS2's... um.. completely unorganized mess.

All things considered when you beat a well made RPG, you certainly get your money's worth with the game extending usualy 50+ hours
Yeah, and the well-made Halo (apparently, I hate the game) game that's a FPS that people play until this day can actually be replayed.

Adventure games however seem to not have their fair shake at things and are definetly more nitche compared to many of the genres, Pheonix Wright, Longest Journey, Trace Memory, Lost in The Blue, and such are all good games, but very few are in delevopement
Trace Memory's a good game? I bought it for cheapness and collectness, not goodness and win.

but I'm sure that alot of people would certainly give their first born for a Shenmue III on either of the next-gen systems.
Reorganize that sentence.

"I'm sure that alot of people would certainly give up their first born for Shenmue III to be made".

Shenmue II's disappointing sales, along with Shenmue I being on a failed system, has not given Shenmue much luck in America. If one comes out in Japan, we couldn't even be guaranteed to get it in America thanks to the expansive translation work required in the game.

[Noukon]

I think it more or less depends ont he series, ARPGS like Zelda are far from nitche(it did infact hold the world record for a time for most reserved game when OoT was the most recent)

Relating this back to the thread: Which handheld is getting a Zelda game?

[Duke]

Relating this back to the thread: Which handheld is getting a Zelda game?
Nintendo DS.

[Noukon]

Nintendo DS.

Exactly!

[Artimus Gigan]

Exactly!
But it could be another Minish Cap

hopefully not though

[peacebyanymeans]

I enjoyed Minish Cap, thank you very much! :mad:

[Noukon]

But it could be another Minish Cap

hopefully not though

The Minish Cap was a critically acclaimed game that most fans enjoyed immensely. So, hopefully it is another Minish Cap.

I'm not going to get drawn into another stream of immense irrelevance, so I'll just stop there.

[Artimus Gigan]

The Minish Cap was a critically acclaimed game that most fans enjoyed immensely. So, hopefully it is another Minish Cap.

I'm not going to get drawn into another stream of immense irrelevance, so I'll just stop there.
Meh, it seemed at bit too lacking in the epic-ness of the previous Zeldas, then again most non-ganon related Zeldas are such, I mean there is a definate decrease in boss battle quality and design for Zelda games that do not feature Gannon as the main bad guy.

it also had that annoying (slightly improved) statue quest, and it was a bit on the short side of things if you did no sidequests

But the new DS Zelda using the Gauntlet perspective looks to be better than any of the GB and GBA incarnations battle-wise, link has more fluid movements and hence combat won't be like a meat tank. But now I wonder since Wind Waker has 3 other games that use it's style, how many will Twilight Princess have? I mean that style on a Portable may end up being interesting.