Why has AS utterly ignored "Witch Hunter Robin" and "Wolf's Rain"?

[Ace Goodheart]

Upon seeing Adult Swim's latest and controversial schedule, I groaned once again at what I saw: Cowboy Bebop and FLCL (ESPECIALLY the former) getting their umpteenth run. Same goes for Big O and Trigun, although to a lesser extent. As AS has been bringing these shows back over the last year (some not even getting to complete their runs, which I find annoying and irresponsible) I wonder, WHY hasn't AS bothered to re-run Witch Hunter Robin and Wolf's Rain, two shows which could definitely use a couple of runs for all they are worth? WHR debuted on Adult Swim back in February 2004, and to this day has only gotten 2 complete runs (its initial run and an encore that was ongoing at this time a year ago at the 1:30AM slot, from early November-early January.), and a botched, incomplete run on Saturday AS. Wolf's Rain (debuted on April 2004) has gotten a couple of runs, but nowhere near enough as the aforementioned 4 shows.

Both of these show's contracts are sure to run out early next year, as AS just sits on them while milking the dry Bebop cow? Didn't this happen with Kikaider as well? C'mon AS, give these 2 underrated shows a chance, especially WHR. I suppose because it tanked that they're just gonna sit on its contract?


Speaking about contracts I'd like to discuss the length of these contracts: the 4 veterans of AS (Bebop, Trigun, Big O, FLCL) have been airing on AS for over 2 years, isn't the length of these "contracts" exactly 2 years? Do the execs go on and extend the contracts if the shows are successful? Someone clarify how these contracts work. *Recalls the horrid mistreatment of "Rurouni Kenshin" on Toonami, and how it was yanked almost exactly 2 years after it premiered on Toonami"

[Djm912]

Even though I loved Wolf's Rain, and had a good friend that loved Witch Hunter Robin, neither of them were widely accepted by the Adult Swim masses.

Cowboy Bebop and (for some freaking reason) FLCL are universally slurped over. They'll always be a ratings workhorse.

[jbanks97]

Simple

They're boring
They aren't very good
They bombed in the first and second showings.

AS has a ton of quality programing now. FMA, Eva, Champloo, GITS, etc., all of these shows have been far more succesful than WR and WHR. There's no reason to replay a show that didn't work, nobody likes, and really isn't that great to begin with again.

The only thing less likely to be shown on AS again are Milk, Reign, and kikaider.

(As far as the contracts go-they've had to repurchase FLCL, Trigun, and especially Bebop, since it's been over 2 years since each premiered. Big O they might have had a different arrangment, since they helped fund the second season)

[Lord Dalek]

They haven't. You just don't have On Demand.

[livingfruitvirus]

The only thing less likely to be shown on AS again are Milk, Reign, and kikaider.
And not even the latter two because AS doesn't have those anymore.

[LordByronius]

Simple

They're boring
They aren't very good
They bombed in the first and second showings.

AS has a ton of quality programing now. FMA, Eva, Champloo, GITS, etc., all of these shows have been far more succesful than WR and WHR. There's no reason to replay a show that didn't work, nobody likes, and really isn't that great to begin with again.

The only thing less likely to be shown on AS again are Milk, Reign, and kikaider.

(As far as the contracts go-they've had to repurchase FLCL, Trigun, and especially Bebop, since it's been over 2 years since each premiered. Big O they might have had a different arrangment, since they helped fund the second season)
Obviously a show being made of suck hasn't stopped AS from replaying them. Milk-chan ran in the 5am hour for a while. That's why the 5am hour exists (I mean, aside from getting enough hours per week to be considered their own "network"): it gives them an opportunity to program shows that are far from hits but still have their fans. Or at least still have fans who own DVRs.

Wolf's Rain and Witch Hunter Robin certainly fall under the category of "far from hits." I'll wager they'll be on the next 5am rotation whenever AS is done with the Big O and Gigantor combo.

[NahMan85]

AS just thought they didn't get what they wanted out of it. That along with Case Closed/Detective Conan and many other programs that I liked were put to sleep. These shows apparently didn't bring in the right demographics that they wanted.

I just think that is a bunch of horse @#$%.

[Nftnat]

I watched Witch Hunter Robin and Wolf's Rain. For both series, I faithfully followed the story - although I was a bit late getting started with WR - to the very end. I was fascinated with the various plots, the what-if situations, the spirituality, the philosophizing, stuff that made me think. And I am on record as having communicated my fondness for the shows on Toon Zone as you can find out for yourself with a search for those series and my name; at times it seemed I was the only one on these boards defending either show. I really liked both of them.

And I bailed on the reruns.

It's not that I liked them any less; it's just that I didn't like them as much as I thought I did. If they were coming on tonight, I might watch them, or I might not. I think this is an instance of a showing not holding up under repeated viewings.

I don't know what the ratings were, but I get the feeling that they went from bad to worse, and that when CN / AS / WS saw the already low ratings become even more insignificant for those shows, they were quietly pulled. When they were pulled, I don't remember anyone on here complaining, though I could be wrong.

[Juu-kuchi]

We adults have grown-up from dark gothic semi-angsty shows.

[Nin-Nin69]

FLCL is on because they scored the highest ratings for anime airing on AS. Bebop is on since it's their original Anime property they've shown from the begining. Big O was a huge sucess and was payed for by CN to air a second season which in turn does deserved to be aired more than Trigun, Bebop, and FLCL together.

WHR and WR were terrible and were mocked by the regular AS auidence. Even I didn't pay much attention to them. I'd rank them as low as Pilot Canidate and Super Milk Chan. Atleast Reign was slightly intresting. Yet Detective Conan and Lupin being mocked for their age in animation is rather stupid when over 1/2 of the regular audience would still watch the same season of Scooby Doo, G.I. Joe, and Thundercats over and over again.

[Zyzzybalubah]

I didn't like either show, but yeah I think it is lame AS hasn't given the two another full-run. They could easily do it at the 1 AM hour of Adult Swim or their very last hour of 5 AM. I mean, they gave Reign (a show far worse than the two getting shafted) multiple runs, so hopefully we'll see one or two more runs for WHR and WR, just to be fair. Like I said, I don't like the two shows, but there are other fans and I might be in a similar situation of wanting repeats of Paranoia Agent. I know it got 1 extra run, but I'm hoping for one more at least because right now the DVDs are as Mr. Dink says, "Very Expensive, haw haw."

[Rabi~en~Rose]

while I didn't like either of those shows at all I will join in the AS overruns bebop/flcl to much crowd :( Trigun hasn't aired once this year what the point of renewing a show to never air it :confused:

[NahMan85]

FLCL is on because they scored the highest ratings for anime airing on AS. Bebop is on since it's their original Anime property they've shown from the begining. Big O was a huge sucess and was payed for by CN to air a second season which in turn does deserved to be aired more than Trigun, Bebop, and FLCL together.

WHR and WR were terrible and were mocked by the regular AS auidence. Even I didn't pay much attention to them. I'd rank them as low as Pilot Canidate and Super Milk Chan. Atleast Reign was slightly intresting. Yet Detective Conan and Lupin being mocked for their age in animation is rather stupid when over 1/2 of the regular audience would still watch the same season of Scooby Doo, G.I. Joe, and Thundercats over and over again.
My sentiments exactly.

[tb4000]

The shows like Milk Chan and the like were shown at 5 in the morning because that's when the percentage of the populous that smokes copious amounts of weed are still active.

[heyguysok]

They haven't. You just don't have On Demand.
*Nods* Yeah, they're all over Adult Swim on Demand Action. I guess when a show has been on long enough but Adult Swim can't/doesn't want to get rid of it quite yet, they put it there. First episode of InuYasha just showed up there. I don't understand why they do the whole 2-5 rerun, either. They could easily put some of their older fare in that timeslot.

[LostKunoichi]

Well if they are going to keep playing Bebop they could at least put in the episode of Spike and Faye they cut out...sniff....please.....and I enjoy Bebop...even though I already bought the dvd's I still enjoy it. It was one of my first older anime. (Sailor Moon was my first.....shudders)

[Nobuyuki sama]

Well if they are going to keep playing Bebop they could at least put in the episode of Spike and Faye they cut out...sniff....please.....:confused:
What are you on about?

[NahMan85]

The shows were just not what AS wanted, plain and simple. I mean they go through so many shows like that year in and year out so these shows were just a bump in the road for AS. It's just the way it works my friend. You win some you lose some.

[email2003]

Simple

They're boring
They aren't very good
They bombed in the first and second showings.Exactly! And lets leave it like that! Those shows suck! I rather have Lupin or Big O reruns instead.

[Karl Olson]

Well, seeing as Adult Swim is no longer embracing the trend of poorly directed pretentious artshit,

Man, now they'll never buy Tsukihime... :p

they can't very well air said series, can they? Those shows got their chance, they had a few full runs, airing in the 1 am spot. The ratings were never there. Maybe you should... should...... dare I say it...... no, it's too unthinkable... oh I must say it.... buy the DVDs?

Especially since both are boxsetted and theirfore easy and reasonable to pick up. Maybe if DVD sales are good, Bandai will respond by buying more series in that vein.

[Space Chief]

Simple

They're boring
They aren't very good
They bombed in the first and second showings.
Hey, I kind of liked WR. It definitely had it's moments, it had a Yoko Kanno score, and it was beautiful to look at. Sure, it was incredibly slow and had a horrid ending, but it's not as bad as people say it is.

WHR, though...no.

Edit: And WR had a giant killer walrus. That has to count for something.

[Ace Goodheart]

Don't have AS on Demand, despite having Time Warner as my cable provider and TW being the owners of Cartoon Network. Hell, I JUST got Anime Network on Demand here in NYC YEARS after it has appeared everywhere else.


Oh, and Robin sleeping in the nude FTW. Seriously though, didn't know there were so many detractors of WHR and WR.

[cadence]

I'm certainly no fan of WHR and I actually avoided it the first time around. But I would watch them as repeats, if only because I'd have seen those eposodes less than the millionth repeat of Big O or Bebop (no offense to Bebop. And offense towards Big O - yea you Big O)

However I was suprised that Wolf's Rain was unpopular after it's run - I saw it first on AS and since then got my hands on all of the episodes and both OSTs (great OSTs by the way - some of Yoko Kanno's best work).

Regardless of opinions though I agree that it'd be nice for AS to switch up the overkill of certain shows.

[KojiroTakenashi]

Never seen WHR, but I can tell you why people don't like Wolf's Rain:

They don't think enough.

Wolf's Rain is about as deep or deeper as, say Big O, GiTS, or FLCL, but it doesn't have enough robots, cyborgs, mecha, androids, or fanservice in it to keep people's attentions.

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Ehhhh what? None of those shows are deep except for Big O whose depth is a farce to fool the gullible, the same people who write essays about Evangelion's religious "commentary". And WR isn't deep, it's just boring, and its own fans began abandoning it by the OVA episodes.
Big O and GitS aren't deep(although Big O was good despite that), but FLCL certainly had a lot of depth, there were so many different layers in it, and quite a bit of brilliance beneath the "lol crazy robot ****" level.

But yeah, people didn't like WHR or WR because they were boring.

[Happy]

Not to mention that WHR's action scenes were so boring that I refuse to consider them as action, which is a problem on Adult Swim Action. Wolf's Rain was slow moving to the point of madness. It lost all viewership by refusing to do anything with the plot until the second half of the series.

Besides that both shows were just flat out boring, everything from the voices to the color palette screamed "bland."

[Anime Freak]

Yeah and whats amazing is the fact that while most people who watch it on tv might not like it, there's then the anime community who adore both of these series,which is why they sell so good :sweat:

[KojiroTakenashi]

Ehhhh what? None of those shows are deep except for Big O whose depth is a farce to fool the gullible, the same people who write essays about Evangelion's religious "commentary". And WR isn't deep, it's just boring, and its own fans began abandoning it by the OVA episodes.
Yet again for reference:

Big O is a Gnostic drama (although it only dives off the deep end the second season), centering around a "Negotiator" who's original incarnation existed to negotiate with the Powers That Be in control of the City (The Archons/Overseers/Rulers). I had my suspicions about it the first series...but the second one just goes all-out with the stuff since they had enough funding to back them up. Essentially, Roger Smith = a dramatic Gnostic interpretation of Jesus. In Gnosticism the original incarnation of humanity has forgotten who and what it was thanks to the Archons, and the intention of Jesus was to help restore that memory/communicate teachings that will lead one to the restoration of that memory. Big O, then, is essentially a modern, animated Romance play. Chaucer with Gnostic thermes and big giant robots. They also throw in some Hebrew mythology for good measure and awesome robot fights to keep your attention.

GiTS: Dear GOD, was that memory transfer scene reminiscent of the picture of Anthromorphised GOD sparking life into man not enough for you? What with it's themes of inner knowledge and emphasis on the nature of the human soul, nevermind a crapload of Emergence theory...just wow. Let alone The Laughing Man's dilemma and Motoko's solution at the end. Essentially, the Laughing Man = a Stand Alone Complex'd Jesus/Roger Smith. So many perfectly replicated memories of the original that he BECOMES an original on his own. He's the second coming for the cybernetic era. Many Gnostic belief systems hold Jesus and Christ to be seperate entities that later united, so one could say Laughing Man = Jesus and the memes he picks up = Christ. Also held is there is a belief in an Inner Christ-consciousness within all (others getting SAC'd) and there we go. Gnosticism for the Digital Age. Oh yeah, nevermind hints of an illusory reality. Honestly Laughing Man Jesus is about as badass as Atomsk-Christ, which I'll get to here in a minute.
It's in the friggin' THEME SONG. "Inner Universe". Hello!

"Calling Calling, For the place of knowing
There's more that what can be linked
Calling Calling, Never will I look away
For what life has left for me"

"Place of Knowing". Gnosis. Yeah.

FLCL. Oh my damn.

As if the robots with nails in their wrists or the giant hands with holes blasted in them wasn't enough to be a "Hello!", we also have an absolutely psychotic interpretation of Sophia aka The Holy Spirit in Haruko...and then we have Atomsk, a Pirate King who's battling Medical Mechanica, an evil organization bent on ironing out planets so people can't think (The Archons...again. Honestly if it weren't for all the robots I WOULD be tired of the Gnostic tangent Anime's in). Atomsk is a supreme ethereal being who's own manifestation is the shape of a very suspect bird (Those Gnostics that hold Christ as a seperate being say that The Christ descended into Jesus in the form of a Dove-thing during his baptising by John The Baptist). He's also inexplicably linked to Haruko (Some Gnostics hold Jesus/Christ/Whatever as either a brother/twin-thing to Sophia or as her consort).
Naota becomes absolutely badass when he consumes Atomsk, but it's not enough thanks to his feelings for Haruko-Sophia, as she is the 'divine feminine' all these damn new agers ramble about these days and since he's grown up without a proper female influence, or a proper mother-figure, and with a psychotic clingy shotacon-chick (Mamimi, not Haruko, who is obviously an illusion of his youth, a manifestation of the adolescent feelings within his own heart :p). Atomsk-Christ is the divine masculine, and Naota's innate master of self allows him to become the ultimate manly badass by joining with him...unfortunately, he's too young, and winds up living life as a normal adolescent. FLCL is less worldly and is more of a portrayal of the roles Sophia, Jesus, and the bad guys (Archons and Demiurge and whatever else) have in our own minds and individual lives. You don't notice any of this, though, 'cause you're too busy ogling Haruko and listening to the Rockin' music. SPIDAH!

Wolf's Rain is better from a religious theme standpoint than all of these, since it doesn't have too much cyber/steampunk to weigh that stuff down. It's also not solely Gnostic (though Gnostic themes are featured quite prominently), and manages to work in themes from other religious views quite smoothly. Unfortunately for the innatentive, just like you'd fall asleep during church, so would you fall asleep during Wolf's Rain.

Let me begin by clarifying the ending for you:

DO NOT READ UNLESS YOU'VE SEEN THE ENDING
WR's body takes place IN THE PAST

Phew. Now with that out of the way...

Excellent Metaphors here, and it turns out it's not the first time the "wolf" thing has been used before.

Compare, if you will, the theme that Wolves started out as Wolves then forgot who they were with the theme the original Divine Form of Mankind started out that way then forgot who they were and became mankind that we know and love.

Also compare the ideas of battling Overseers/Rulers (The Nobles), cut off from the worlds of their origins and placing themselves on a pedestal above humanity. While these are FAR more contemporary Archons than the incredibly villainized interpretations of the past, I find these ones to be far more realistic in their portrayal compared to, say, The Machines from The Matrix. While The Machines were cool and all...they kinda went a tad overboard there.

Anyway, the meat: The Wolves (Those who posess knowledge of the world n' stuff) exist simultenously in their own world that they can see and interact with, and in the limited world of Man. They appear to humanity (the 'lambs of god', if you will) as humans...So herein you get "Wolves in Sheep's clothing". Notice these aren't just wolves and it's not 'just' an illusion: Since when do Wolves get Manual Dexterity?

Anyway, this metaphor was used originally as a slander against Gnostics and other groups by closed-minded jerks. The groups that weren't also close-minded took the name upon themselves since, presumably, they observed that real-world wolves weren't slavering man-eating beastythings. So you read anti-wolf things in coded attacks against Gnosticism and others in poetry and text, and you read pro-wolf things in coded Gnostic writings. I've stumbled on quite a few books that have Wolf's Rain-style wolves without explicitly stating if it meant just people or lycanthropy or whatever...I've also read religious attacks against "wolves", so it's not just this series.

Anyway, my writing is kind of coming unglued. I'll shorten it up.

Wolf's Rain trades out Jesus/Christ and Sophia for a more Earthly being: Eve/Zoe. Cheza is Eve/Zoe, the Moon Child, Sophia's Daughter. If the Sun is the source of of life in the solar system and the Moon reflects that light, then we have the Source's (God's) light reflected by the Moon (Sophia) then you also have that light in Cheza-Zoe, the Moon Child (although engineered).

Then you have drama surrounding that. I've spent too long typing all this up and I've got to go but that's the general gist of it. Make your own conclusions or...whatever.

[Timmay]

Depth does not beet out boredom.

[Delthayre]

Such attempts at depth have generally seemed pointless to me. I honestly don't see what the virtue of gumming of the wheels of story with arcane philosophical structures that are never lucidly explained is. Shows with such bloated philosophical frames often end with something that is not an ending because it does not resolve or conclude the plot in a manner that would be meaningful to the characters. The often provoked counter to that argument is that whatever the story was, usually broken down to its most base level in the argument, wasn't the point and that the mind**** sideline that ate all of the interesting parts is, but I don't by that; a good series would be able to resolve the philosophical issues and end the story in a satisfying manner.

Actually, FLCL was fine and I'm not convinced by Mr. Wilson's railing against the idea that is has underlying substance worth considering, but the ending of The Big O was a completely ****ing waste of my time. I would want to kick Konaka in the nuts, but I blame it more on the people on the American side who apparently demanded an open-ended conclusion.

I like GitS:SAC for its interesting and complex stories, if I want a treatise on Gnosticism, I'll read a book on Gnosticism. I might actually do that some day, Gnosticism is pretty interesting when it isn't wasting time that should be entertaining me.

I couldn't stomach enough of Wolf's Rain or Ghost Hunter Robin to ever figure out if they were trying to blow undergraduate philosophy papers out their asses, which I would assume to be metaphorical asses, or not, but I doubt I would've learned anything if I had.

If TV wants to be a teacher, that's not a bad thing. Medieval lords used to put on morality plays to instruct their illiterate subjects, I imagine television could try to the same, but if it does try such, it has to do it through the medium of who its characters are, not what they blather on about in unimpressively-written monologues. Give me the suggestion of a philosophy in an engaging package through the voices of characters I find full and interesting and I just might go find a book that can teach me; give me a lecture on philosophy through animated mouthpieces whom I don't care about and I'll turn off the TV and read that book that the good show made me interested in.

[Aquagirl15]

Eh, I've never seen WHR or know what it's about. But I do know a little about WR. I've seen a bunch of the eppies cause my friend is obsessed with it. I think it's ok, but there's better anime out there. Plus I thought WR was hard to follow... or maybe it was cause we watched the DVD's during an all-nighter. :shrug:

[Djm912]

Personally, I'm a sucker for stupidly pretentious animes that wind up giving you a mind**** when there really is no depth to them. I enjoyed Wolf's Rain, and enjoyed the 1 or 2 episodes of WHR that I saw.

I may just buy the DVDs.

And if there is someone that said FLCL had depth....explain it to me. And don't give me the BS of having too get it for myself. I want a ******* explanation. I've watched that series too many times and I want to know what the hell is so freaking deep about it.

[KojiroTakenashi]

I just wrote an explaination...read my post.

But I presume most people will skip over it for not enough robots.

[Djm912]

I just wrote an explaination...read my post.

But I presume most people will skip over it for not enough robots.
Ahhh. I got stuck on looking up gnosticism after you mentioned it in GiTS.
I may stomach FLCL again now.

Anyway, being the sucker that I am, I may give WHR a watch.

[KojiroTakenashi]

http://www.gnosis.org

Although it is a bit slanted. Remember Gnostic Christianity is about as diverse as Christianity itself.

Elaine Pagels' books are actually the best presented sources on the subject, asides from religious pageants with robots :p

I have this theory that Anime must have robots/cyborgs/androids/etc for most people to be able to pay attention to it, no matter how good it is.

Take Last Exile: It's brilliant, loads of awesome tech, but it doesn't really have any robots in it.

So G4 starts showing the robot shows AS rejected :p. If you think Robots with religious subtexts is annoying, wait until you have robot shows with no depth at all. Ugh. Trust me, you don't want that.

[Karl Olson]

To Kojiro: Personally, I think you're just casting those works through a personal lens, not genuinely trying to reveal their core metaphors and statements on existence, assuming they any at all. The works listed could just as easily be considered existentialist and/or ontogentic without stretching and completely godless in all other aspects as such - views of man's struggle alone (heck, some of those show make the explicit drive and message of the series - read the FLCL talkbacks for examples.) As such, I'm loathed to take your arguements for depth as valid - they are too narrow and filtered threw your own perspective. If your arguements were valid, then any work with a complete story (IE: a loss, a journey, a test and a return) can be considered to have depth in as much you can assign roles to certain people, therefore creating an artificial depth that doesn't infact in the source work, or at the very least, misreads the intended message of the source work.

To put it another way - Everything looks red when you've got red sunglasses on; however, only in your perception is everything red. In fact, there may be a broader range of colors, maybe even a complete absense of color, but you're not going to see that as long as you view everything threw red-tinted lenses.

To put it another other way - I could even call works like Gilgamesh or Osiris Gnostic by saying certain people have certain roles that are Gnostic by nature (it's an easy arguement when you've got people dying and coming back to life, and other people sitting on an ash heap stripped of friends and family.) However, Gilgamesh and Osiris are predate Christianity by a couple millenia, so therefore by raw temporal logistics cannot be considered to be influenced by a Gnostic tradition of any sort.

In other words, I'll agree their is depth in some of those works. Christian imagery is even very intensionally used at points. However, it maybe more commentary on people's usage of it than an invocation for the purposes of connecting it to particular tradition or philosophy, and or it maybe a usage of the imagery of one philosophy to suggest the opposite. It may be a total distraction from other vastly more pertinent and provocative metaphors in play from completely separate traditions.

Like I said though in the subject of this post, read between the lines, don't write between them as you seem to be doing from my perspective (keep in mind that I've got my point of view too, but if you're really looking for depth and meaning in works, a challenge to look deeper should be relished, not feared or loathed, atleast from my perspective.) Certainly don't write over the current lines atleast - last time that happened, the world lost calculus for a millenia. (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/archimedes/) Oh, and you get a lot of crappy fan-fiction out of that mentality too ;)

[Space Chief]

And if there is someone that said FLCL had depth....explain it to me. And don't give me the BS of having too get it for myself. I want a ******* explanation. I've watched that series too many times and I want to know what the hell is so freaking deep about it.
Basically, people say it's a coming of age story.

I personally liked FLCL better when it didn't make sense.

[Anime Freak]

Eh, I just dont see why all animes can't have decent/reasonably good endings like Grenadier, Bebop, Trigun (well some ppl say otherwise on this but I think it does), Shingu, Vandread, Gravion, Midori Days,etc. Instead we get animes like Wolfs Rain, Big O, Evangelion, FLCL, Trinity Blood, Gantz and more where we go "WTF" when we see the ending.

[Sr.Infierno]

Eh, I just dont see why all animes can't have decent/reasonably good endings like Grenadier, Bebop, Trigun (well some ppl say otherwise on this but I think it does), Shingu, Vandread, Gravion, Midori Days,etc. Instead we get animes like Wolfs Rain, Big O, Evangelion, FLCL, Trinity Blood, Gantz and more where we go "WTF" when we see the ending.
I thought FLCL had a pretty straight-forward ending. Very satisfying IMO

[KojiroTakenashi]

Wolf's Rain had a great ending if you read my spoiler box about it.

I will admit though that Big O's ending was a little...rushed.

[herbkir]

Meanings aside, I think the reason WR and WHR have never surfaced again, even in the 5-6 am slot, is that they sank too far down in the ratings to be worth salvaging. I liked both of these shows but was in a tiny minority. AS normally milks shows for all it can get, but I think there is a point where they say it'd be a waste of airtime to run them again. (^_*)

[Ace Goodheart]

*sigh*, well can anyone at least admit that WHR had an AWESOME soundtrack? Go listen to "Robin" dammit!

[Lord Dalek]

*sigh*, well can anyone at least admit that WHR had an AWESOME soundtrack?Aside from Shell, I can't remember a darn thing about that show's soundtrack.

[Wounded_Dragon]

Wolf's Rain had a great ending if you read my spoiler box about it.
Read your spoiler box, still think it's a bad ending. I absolutely failed to care about any characters but the humans, and they got the shaft. And with the kind of ending you think is so great, caring about the characters is key.

[Ace Goodheart]

Try listening to "Robin", the theme song of said character. It plays ad nauseum throughout the show. Its fantastic. If you don't like that well...............guess you're hard to please huh? :sad:

[Mandi-chan]

I loved Wolf's Rain (have both soundtracks and plan on getting the boxset), but I will admit that it was a bit slow. Some people don't mind that, while for others it's a turn off. It doesn't really matter to me, I still love it.

Never saw WHR, anyone care to summarize it a bit for me?

[Hades]

Simple, most people can't stand an anime that doesn't have massive fighting within its first 4 minutes that lasts 10 episodes. If there is ever a moment of talking for more than 10 minutes, they get bored easily and turn it off. Thus the shows that are good because of their story do worst than those with all action no plot series.

Witch Hunter Robin and Wolf's Rain fall under the catergory of lots of storytelling with semi-action. However, Big O was a fluke. :eek:

[Warrior Kitana]

Well, I never really cared much for either shows. Wolf's Rain was pretty boring to me and I never caught on. I've had friends to say Witch Hunter Robin was great, but when I saw the series I was pretty confused and didn't understand much of it thus I never got interested into the series as well. I was hoping to give WHR another try and watch the series over to gain a better understanding of it, but it hasn't aired in quite some time. I can't say I'm surprised to see that neither of these shows got high ratings.

[Wounded_Dragon]

Simple, most people can't stand an anime that doesn't have massive fighting within its first 4 minutes that lasts 10 episodes. If there is ever a moment of talking for more than 10 minutes, they get bored easily and turn it off. Thus the shows that are good because of their story do worst than those with all action no plot series.
Ah, the standard "you just don't get it" defense is in full swing with this one. Just because people think a show is bad doesn't mean they "don't get it." Sometimes they "get it" all too well.

[Mandi-chan]

The way I see it: Every single show, movie, comic, book, etc... is crap in some people's eyes and a masterpeice in others eyes.

There is no right or wrong, there is no "don't get it" and "gets it". You either like it or you don't.

[SokkaBoSiegel]

That's probably a fair statement in most cases, but there are going to be some instances where something is so bad, anyone who says it is good is just flat out wrong. I mean, if someone came out with a show about a piece of spaghetti that was alive and the premise of the show was the piece of spaghetti slowly winding down a street and there was no dialouge, it would be hard to argue that was a good show. It's a little fuzzier on masterpieces, but there's gotta be something(s) out there that are indisputedly awesome.

Secondly, it's been a good three weeks or so since Ive asked this, so it's about time I bring it up again since they're been a lot of schedule change and calls for new runs...but does anyone have a hunch as to when Trigun will be aired again?

[DAISHI]

WHR had a strong start, but despite tempting us with enticing concepts and ideas, its middle story faltered and its end was typical. Nothing to be excited for twice.

[Hades]

Ah, the standard "you just don't get it" defense is in full swing with this one. Just because people think a show is bad doesn't mean they "don't get it." Sometimes they "get it" all too well.When did I say those that "don't get it" hate it? I said people get easily bored when there isn't a lot of action (which I still wonder how in the world DBZ became as successful as it is/was though) because a lot of people would rather watch some action oriented series rather than one with a deep plot.

Oh, I must say though, I was in the category for not enjoying Wolf's Rain. It had its moments, and the story was nice, but yes, it was too boring for my taste. Perhaps watching it once a week was the problem.

On the other hand, I thought WHR was just wicked cool with a nice story, especially when marathoning it in one night. :p Maybe I should get that WR box set and do the same...

[Master Moron]

Try listening to "Robin", the theme song of said character. It plays ad nauseum throughout the show. Its fantastic. If you don't like that well...............guess you're hard to please huh? :sad:

I actually disliked the soundtrack to Witch Hunter Robin, in part because, as you say, they played the same music ad nauseum. It just got really repetitive, and to be honest, most of the music wasn't that good to begin with. Most of the music seemed to remind me of better pieces of music from other anime.

Anyway, I didn't get the ending to FLCL or Big O, but I thought Wolf's Rain's ending was pretty clear. I agree with Kojiro that it took place in the past. Kind of like Gall Force:Eternal Story.

[KojiroTakenashi]

No spoiler box?

Eh, yeah. The point of the series was that it was supposed to be like a forgotten history. It already happened, get over it kind of thing.

Again, though. I still don't see anyone able to disprove my Robots/Cyborgs/Mecha/etc = Viewership theory.

[Karl Olson]

However, while it likely took place in the (or a) past and deals with a sacrifice and rebirth, that doesn't lead instantly to a Christian metaphor. Various Native American traditions feature some of the same imagery and metaphor and in relation to wolves at that (search up and read the series finale talkbacks for some of what people managed to find and apply to the series.) Further still, it's a metaphor that predates Christianity at that (like I said, Osiris is just about the oldest story in the written record, and it's got obvious death, sacrifice and rebirth elements.) Heck, even if we were going to look outside of the Native American traditions that seem to fit the series best, I'd still pick up on Hindu or Buddhist metaphors because they better allow for the rebirth of an entire world based on the basis of a person's or god's actions.

I'm not trying to anyone's belittle faith here, I'm just trying to point out that any one faith or viewpoint is not the be all and end all for analysis. In fact, certain complex works are really geared around being godless or multi-theistic, so if one only analyzes the work with a monotheistic philosophy, you're going to miss the point. To play philosophy, you've got to be able to wear more than pair of philosophical shoes. Otherwise, it's a game of faith, not analysis. To really get at this stuff, you need an independent investigation of the truth, not a canned response from your back pocket (which, perhaps ironically, was a canned response from my back packet.)

Meanwhile, just because a series or work can be cross-analyzed doesn't make it entertaining. Wolf's Rain has some symbolic stuff in play, but's got characters, storytelling, direction and pacing that for most people (not all of course) are just dull and unengaging. Ditto for WHR (though it has less in play on the whole.) "The Scarlett Letter" can be analyzed sixty ways from sunday because of the usage of color symbolism and the moral concepts in play, ditto for "The Great Gatsby," but that doesn't make them entertaining, that just makes them deep. The two are mutually exclusive for most people barring a very small handful people who are entertained by depth (most people need emotional characterization, good pacing, an accessibly-told story and good direction first.) Thus why Wolf's Rain and WHR get no ratings and thus why AS hasn't cycled them back in - they don't hold people just on the basis of being accessible.

Sure titles can be deep and entertaining, but great series don't hinge on solely their depth, they hinge on previously mentioned characterization, story, direction and pacing (and in the case of animated series, pacing and direction are doubly important.) Depth is a nice bonus, something that can make a series a classic, but it's not the baseline requirement for most audiences. Hence why people watch Cowboy Bebop and FLCL: they can be and are very entertaining without appreciating any depth in play, atleast for a lot of audiences. Yeah, if you get what they are playing with, it's profound. However, they'd be a drag if they didn't have the style and momentum they bring to the table in the first place.

[KojiroTakenashi]

I didn't imply Contemporary Christian metaphors, I was speaking more of Gnostic Christianity/Gnosticism in general. I did mention that Wolf's Rain barely leaves any religious belief out...I must disagree with your view that Wolf's Rain carries a predominantly Buddhist theme (outside of the Native American ones - but like I said, they coincide most excellently with the coded metaphor of the "wolf"), most notably due to the explicit intention of the Wolves to find 'Paradise'. Also there is the presence of the Nobles, "seperated from the world of their origins".

Also, the intention, I believe, was not originally to reboot the world. I'm pretty sure that came about all thanks to the various, cascading effects of Jagara's actions. Darcia can't be held too accountable thanks to the Poison (very blatant metaphor there)

...Hmm. Anyone else notice the whole "Ultimate Eye" theme going around in Anime recently? Darcia, King Bradley...Kakashi. Hrm...

But anyway, those're my reasons there, pretty much...

Edit: After reading the finale talkback for WR, I see you're the main analysis-type guy. I've also got a few things to add:

In the Manga, out of the one page I randomly flipped to (in the bookstore), Darcia elaborates a bit on his nature. He comments that due to his unique perspective and being, he is the only one capable of opening a True Paradise that neither Wolf nor Noble can attain. This is, of course, before he goes absolutely crazy. Cheza couldn't open up the True Paradise (which I reckon would be something Last Exile-style) thanks to all other running processes being terminate- err, thanks to everybody else being dead, so the only recourse was to open up the Wolves' Paradise, so she could "see him then" and "Try again next time".

I think the comparison to A.I. was incredibly short-sighted. Yes they do both have Gnostic elements (A.I. greatly so, as does every Kubrick work and quite a few of Spielberg's), but that movie was more pure commentary about the nature of Mankind and the desire to find Sophia (The Divine Wisdom/Holy Spirit. None of this bastardized 'divine feminine' crap they try to hawk off on bookshelves these days), and thus a kind of primal satisfaction or happiness.

Anyway, just tossing all that in. I do think that it's kind of unfair for the producers of these shows and movies to throw in these elements without any kind of explaination or warning. Sure, it's a tasty treat for those of us in the know, and an even more delicious apple for those of us who follow those beliefs, but still way unfair. Noone wants to seem to mention Gnosticism for fear of the strange media stigma about it!

[Karl Olson]

It almost seems like you have completely ignored what I said about imagery used predating the Gnostic traditions. My point was is that is there are multiple viewpoints on the issues, and you're ruining the ability to get anyone to back you in "this is deep" by simply espousing what very much seems like a cut and paste explanation for everything you come across, especially one that's undermined by the existence of other philosophical stuctures that utilize similar imagery and thus can be applied to the same series, especially when those structures predate and/or were developed in total isolation from the influence you're espousing. In a sense, the biggest flaw in your arguement for these series is your denial of the possibility of other arguements for these series. All in all, you sound like a preacher to me, not a philosopher. To convince people of depth, you must be the latter, atleast in my assessment. If you preach rather research, think, analyze and synthesize, then regardless of what you preach you'll never convince anyone else of your views.

I mean, the part in the original end talkback about the Hopi Creation myth really strikes me as the best fit for Wolf's Rain, assuming it was trying to play to a particular existing structure. The concept that it was a necessary rebirth or the world and that what was depicted in the series was the world before our current world works brilliantly well. It's also allows it to be considered a happy ending - they are one step away from a true Paradise. However, I'm not willing to consider other options, I'm confident that multitude of possibilities fit.

Given that like the Buddhist tradition, the Hopi Creation myth calls for a rebirth (albeit a different type and a different scale,) it can also be seen as a fit, with some characters have reached Nirvana and other being reincarnated once more in an attempt to try yet again to find enlightment aka Paradise. It doesn't necessarily account for the anachronistic world we see in Wolf's Rain unless we start to think of things either in terms of non-linear or time or we fuse it with Hinduism (a natural fit actually in some ways,) and consider the events at the end of the show to be result of Vishnu, and what we are seeing is the new world (still our own) formed from the old at the very end of the show.

We can even take it into terms of Atheistic Existentialism and argue that the agenda of the story is that searching for a singular Truth - a Paradise - is a fool's errand is as much as there is no singular Truth in the physical world because physical truth are individual by nature, thus any search for a singular Truth will be altered and tainted by those with a different ideal than your own. Ultimately, the series would suggest that there is nothing more that can be done other than what we our selves can do on this plane. It's not complete, but the concept of Paradise being impossible to achieve on the account of physical or rather perhaps selfish terms makes it a feasible play.

Those interpretations that are different from yours gain even more creedence and value as an arguement if it was played largely by ear because then there is almost no wrong interpretation as long as enough element can tied in. This is perhaps especially because the series has enough going on that the various roles at their generic level can be connected to various pieces of imagery or traditions or symbolism from various philosophical and religious traditions.

In fact, this is why these series and works are open-ended and not blatant in it's explanations. It's not here to preach or patently espouse one philosophical or spiritual set of rules and use it's imagery. It's open ended for the explicit purpose of engaging those with the ability to break it down and come to there own conclusions.

Basically, it's a good thing they aren't making it clear and almost tossing it in at points. Something with a direct agenda would be booooooooooooooring.

[KojiroTakenashi]

I thank you for the stimulating reponse!

However, I think you've misunderstood me - First and Foremost, the only aspect of Wolf's Rain that could be directly interpreted as Gnosticism would be the Wolves, Nobles, and Cheza herself. It doesn't fit well much anywhere else in the show apart from some aspects of the ending (Similar, almost, to Last Exile), as Wolf's Rain does a remakable job of meshing and reconciling various traditions together.

Furthermore, if various forms of Gnosticism are to be believed (which they are from my standpoint) then Gnosticism is just as old if not predating most existing traditions today. In reference to things being boring, most people consider Wolf's Rain restlessly boring because while they may be familiar with some of the Eastern Religious Traditions and Contemporary Christianity, the Native American and Gnostic elements are all but completely lost, thus lessening their enjoyment of it. Without some inkling of EVERY system involved in the show, it comes up as incomplete to the viewer. While I stayed up every night to watch the old reruns like it was Gospel, most people seem to have completely ignored it. The reason for my writeups was to sort of add a 'key' so people could see some of the added Depth to the series. The shows mentioned can be clearly enjoyed in a more superficial fashion, however it may leave quite a few people disinterested or wondering if they could have spent their time better with something else. I disagree with your 'direct agenda', as people found Wolf's Rain boring anyway...although again that could have just been the utter lack of Robots.

What if someone read Animal Farm with no knowledge of Communism, its precepts or its existence? It would be a tiny little book about talking animals. Chronicles of Narnia, with little understanding of Christianity at large? It would just be another generic Fantasy Epic. Hell, most people don't even realize what the song "12 Day of Christmas" is even supposed to be talking about!

[Ace Goodheart]

Good GOD, what have you been doing to my thread? :confused:

[KojiroTakenashi]

Answering your question, and not commiting Page 2 Thread Necromancy.

[NahMan85]

Good GOD, what have you been doing to my thread? :confused:
You got exactly what you wanted. People who have hundreds of different opinions of the show. Some more thought out than others. You ask a question and an answer will follow.

[dawnyoshi]

I personally loved the pretentous artshit known as WHR. But then again, I don't think like other people. I happen to love shows primarilly based upon character development that include an unlit story and a haunting soundtrack. And to be fair, I recall Robin getting only only two full runs. It's a shame the general public didn't like it, but I guess that's understandable. The general public tends to turn off the television after Futurama. :(

[Bones Justice]

I liked Cowboy Bebop so I bought the DVD's.

I liked Big O so I bought the DVD's.

I liked what I got to see of Witch Hunter Robin before they axed it so I bought the DVD's. I was not disappointed. I think it's a great series and the music was great, too. It's a shame that more people didn't like this series. I would have liked another season.

Trigun -- I enjoyed the action and laughed at the comedy but the overall story didn't do it for me. Cool designs, cool music, but I couldn't see buying it or watching re-runs.

I liked Wolf Rain's characters and some of the action scenes were cool. But I never cared for the meandering story enough to buy it. I watched it through once which was enough for me. It's kind of like Full Metal Alchemist -- I've watched it this far so I'll stick around for the end. But I won't be buying it and doubt I'll ever watch re-runs. WR, FMA, and Trigun just seemed to wander aimlessly too much for me to call them favorites. Or perhaps I'm not "deep" enough to "get" them beyond their basic entertainment. That said, I'd probably watch new episodes of all three shows (especially Trigun) if they ever made them.