France is burning...

[wonderfly]

And you think we're having problems in America?!? Been following this news story the last couple of days, (apparently it's a story that's been going on for over a week now, but it just keeps going and going)...and apparently the violence is getting worse...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9891709/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9891709/)

[Humble]

Thanks for the info wonderfly. I'm isolated from the world in college so this is the first time I heard of this. :sad:

-Humble

[MonkeyFunk]

Yeah, as if 2005 needs any more suck.

[Lord Dalek]

It's Rodney King redux.

[Kuja's Light]

Holy crap...Europe of all places, this happening...Well, I certainly hope it all cools down soon, this is rediculous.

[wonderfly]

I'm amazed at how rapidly the story is changing...I keep clicking on that link that I posted above...yesterday, the story said that the U.S.A. and Russia were advising against travelling to France. A few hours ago, they said Australia was joining in on advising against travelling there as well. Now it says that half of Europe is advising against travelling there!

Also, that link now says that the rioting has spread to Belgium and possibly to Germany...

[Kuja's Light]

This may be really pessimsitic thinking, but what if this even further leads to a possible WW3? I wouldn't be surprised, and i felt a coming of one for awhile, things feel very bleak and dark for the world. Hopefully we can survive..

[Humble]

This may be really pessimsitic thinking, but what if this even further leads to a possible WW3? I wouldn't be surprised, and i felt a coming of one for awhile, things feel very bleak and dark for the world. Hopefully we can survive..These kind of things support my fear that our lives will be thrashed by the Karma of the few.

-Humble makes enough problems for himself :shrug:

[Temple Fugate]

If you look at the motivations of the rioting and those involved, you'll see that it's an internal affair for France, which while inspiring other nations to do the same, isn't at all about countries attempting to expand their borders and take over other countries. The impoverished and segregated people in France are demonstrating their unhappiness at their situation. Unless this conflict mutates by leaps and bounds, we're not going to be seeing a third World War.

That is, unless WWIII is not a traditional war between nations as much as it is a new age war between class systems and ethnicities. But I'm praying that will not be the case.

[randomguy]

It's an odd and somewhat unsettling story, and I'm not quite sure what to make of it. Though I've been following this as it's developed for the last few days, I'll confess to not being entirely sure what started this violence. Most reports seem to describe the rioting as being related to issues of poverty and race, and while this is understandable, there's usually some sort of tragedy or act of brutality on the part of authority to touch such riots off. From the sound of things, the rioting in France seemingly began just because people were fed up. That's kind of unusual.

I'll agree that this hardly seems like a forerunner to WWIII, but it's still something to be concerned about. France's class inequities are hardly unique. Similar problems can be found across the developed world, and this could be seen as a warning that, unless we address the root causes of these problems, this sort of thing could happen more often and on a larger scale.

[Fan of Sponge]

This is quite disgusting to see that other nations say we have a poverty problem while France is up with arms over its own time bomb. This is a international issue and the president of France didn't even talk about it until a few days ago.

And they have said we have a bad president...:shrug:

[EinBebop]

Has France surrendered Paris yet?

[Tienshin]

It's an odd and somewhat unsettling story, and I'm not quite sure what to make of it. Though I've been following this as it's developed for the last few days, I'll confess to not being entirely sure what started this violence. Most reports seem to describe the rioting as being related to issues of poverty and race, and while this is understandable, there's usually some sort of tragedy or act of brutality on the part of authority to touch such riots off. From the sound of things, the rioting in France seemingly began just because people were fed up. That's kind of unusual.

I'll agree that this hardly seems like a forerunner to WWIII, but it's still something to be concerned about. France's class inequities are hardly unique. Similar problems can be found across the developed world, and this could be seen as a warning that, unless we address the root causes of these problems, this sort of thing could happen more often and on a larger scale.

Everything sort of erupted after two kids were supposedly chased by the police and ended up electrocuting themselves after hiding in a place that had some pretty high voltage running through it. The police claim they had no involvement, but the community beleived otherwise. At this point I'd say the original catylast has been superceded by general displeasure at the current state of class/race issues in France.

[Squall]

It seems that most of the rioters are Arab Muslim immigrants. (Europe has a large miniority population of Arab Muslims. 10% of France's population, for example. They're also a disproportionate percentage of the poor in France.) What exactly are they upset about? And is there any truth to the rumors that this is the beginning of a "jihad" in Europe, with the blessings of Muslim clerics in the Middle East? I'm sure some of them would love to see France and other European countries turn into Islamic countries, so who knows.

All I do know is that something serious is going down, and will have international reprucussions (NATO? The EU? The international fight against terrorism? Europe's relationship with the Arab Muslim countries?) that will affect everyone, especially countries like the U.S., Canada, and the U.K...

[solarflere]

It apears that the violance has spread to Denmark and Germany. Denmark worce than Germany though.

[Artimus Gigan]

And after all those people said "riots and disorder like in New Orleans will never happen in European countries"

They are probably just kicking themselves right now


or burning cars....


depending on who's side they're on

[Rook]

noone else find it interesting that the most least likely to fight in a major war is suddenly up in chaos?

pre-empt for ww3? nah...

[solarflere]

noone else find it interesting that the most least likely to fight in a major war is suddenly up in chaos?

pre-empt for ww3? nah...Its like this, in France's case, if you ignore the problem long enough, it will come back to bite you. They took the laze-fare aproach for way too long and (dare I say it) they got what was coming to them. Protesting the war on terror is bound to have its consequences. The only real problem is that these race riots are contageous like a plague and now Belgium, Germany, and especialy Denmark are infected.

[Artimus Gigan]

noone else find it interesting that the most least likely to fight in a major war is suddenly up in chaos?

pre-empt for ww3? nah...Erm, both world wars were fought against Countries and the official leaders of them. Not a bunch of groups and rioters...the terror groups are essentialy like a crime syndicate or a guerilla group. Think of the European crime families of the 1950's-60's, they pretty much did the same things.

Unless someone wants to carpet bomb Iran and Syria, both of which have rather weak and inferior military technology(they are not like the russians in any extent). I don't see them starting any wars with Europe and it's allies, they don't have the ability to do so(pretty much the majority of their population is in piss poor condition). There's also Korea, but they are not located in a decent position to takeover Europe.

[Tienshin]

Its like this, in France's case, if you ignore the problem long enough, it will come back to bite you. They took the laze-fare aproach for way too long and (dare I say it) they got what was coming to them. Protesting the war on terror is bound to have its consequences. The only real problem is that these race riots are contageous like a plague and now Belgium, Germany, and especialy Denmark are infected.

I don't think the French stance on the US war on terror is relevant at all here. From everything I have read this current issue seems to be based more on allowing a high number of North Africans in the country when they needed cheap labor. Unfortunately those jobs have long since dried up and now those same people are disproportionately jobless in a country where something like 20% of people under 29 years of age are unemployed.

[solarflere]

I don't think the French stance on the US war on terror is relevant at all here. From everything I have read this current issue seems to be based more on allowing a high number of North Africans in the country when they needed cheap labor. Unfortunately those jobs have long since dried up and now those same people are disproportionately jobless in a country where something like 20% of people under 29 years of age are unemployed.Thats what the media reports, exactly to a letter. But that's not the real problem, the real problem is that france has many anti-western terrorist cells oparating there, using it as a safehaven, and France was refusing to aknowledge and deal with the problem. Two people electrecuted themselvs and all hell broke loose? I don't buy it. There either is or was an alterior motive there.

[Kuja's Light]

To be honest, I really shouldn't have been surprised. I had foreseen a great happening, a great change...Dark times growing and whatnot. Oh, and as for NATO and such..well, I have a feeling i know where everything's headed, but I'd just get flamed for saying what i feel, and it'd probably be considered political talk.

[randomguy]

Thats what the media reports, exactly to a letter. But that's not the real problem, the real problem is that france has many anti-western terrorist cells oparating there, using it as a safehaven, and France was refusing to aknowledge and deal with the problem. Two people electrecuted themselvs and all hell broke loose? I don't buy it. There either is or was an alterior motive there.But your reasoning doesn't make any sense.

If I'm following your line of thought correctly, you place the real blame of the riots on France's government for taking a laissez-faire approach, only you're not talking about laissez-faire capitalism but instead the French government allowing itself to have terrorist cells within its country (which is itself is a shaky claim).

So... what exactly are you saying here? The real problem is that France is supporting terrorism through apathy and that's why people are rioting? What's their motive in that scenario? There's no causality there. The events don't match up as one leading into another.

Protesting the war on terror is bound to have its consequences.Again, this makes no sense whatsoever. Exactly whose protests are to blame? The people or the government? And how is this a consequence of either side "protesting" terror? And do people not have a democratic right to protest the war on terror in the first place?

I'm deeply confused. I'll concede that two people electrocuting themselves seems like a stretch to touch off riots of this size, but if there was some sort of class powderkeg waiting to explode all this time then it's not outside the realm of possibility. It certainly makes more sense than what you're selling.

[Tienshin]

Thats what the media reports, exactly to a letter. But that's not the real problem, the real problem is that france has many anti-western terrorist cells oparating there, using it as a safehaven, and France was refusing to aknowledge and deal with the problem. Two people electrecuted themselvs and all hell broke loose? I don't buy it. There either is or was an alterior motive there.

As I posted earlier I think the original catylast has long since given way to general chaos, but I do think a lot of that has to do with current economic conditions, perceptions of anti muslim sentiment, etc. If these folks have nothing to lose, why not revolt? It's not as if the status quo is particularly appealing.

[solarflere]

But your reasoning doesn't make any sense.

If I'm following your line of thought correctly, you place the real blame of the riots on France's government for taking a laissez-faire approach, only you're not talking about laissez-faire capitalism but instead the French government allowing itself to have terrorist cells within its country (which is itself is a shaky claim).

So... what exactly are you saying here? The real problem is that France is supporting terrorism through apathy and that's why people are rioting? What's their motive in that scenario? There's no causality there. The events don't match up as one leading into another.

Again, this makes no sense whatsoever. Exactly whose protests are to the blame? The people or the government? And how is this a consequence of either side "protesting" terror? And do people not have a democratic right to protest the war on terror in the first place?

I'm deeply confused. I'll concede that two people electrocuting themselves seems like a stretch to touch off riots of this size, but if there was some sort of class powderkeg waiting to explode all this time then it's not outside the realm of possibility. It certainly makes more sense than what you're selling. Two people got killed out of stupidity, and the riot is blamed on bad economy? Please. These are called the race riots for a reason. I know I am opening pandora's box here but its a Muslim Jihad on a Western World. Its a hidden terrorist attack hidden behind poor economy. Its a cover up people.

[Elven Moon]

I'm still really confused on WHY there is all this rioting, but it's unsettling all the same :sad:

[Gatomon41]

Hmm, dosn't look good for Europe. France's secularization might be one of the reasons why this is occuring (Head scarf band).

What ever this means, I think Western Europe is going to have rough times ahead.

[zmanjz]

And after all those people said "riots and disorder like in New Orleans will never happen in European countries"

They are probably just kicking themselves right now


or burning cars....


depending on who's side they're on


That was equally Hilarious and Horrifying.

[Juu-kuchi]

I really don't understand.

When the riots in LA happened, it was pretty obvious that Rodney King was beaten up by the police.

Here they were victims of strange circumstances in which they just so happened to climb the wrong fence.

[sun]

It's an odd and somewhat unsettling story, and I'm not quite sure what to make of it. Though I've been following this as it's developed for the last few days, I'll confess to not being entirely sure what started this violence. Most reports seem to describe the rioting as being related to issues of poverty and race, and while this is understandable, there's usually some sort of tragedy or act of brutality on the part of authority to touch such riots off. From the sound of things, the rioting in France seemingly began just because people were fed up. That's kind of unusual.

I'll agree that this hardly seems like a forerunner to WWIII, but it's still something to be concerned about. France's class inequities are hardly unique. Similar problems can be found across the developed world, and this could be seen as a warning that, unless we address the root causes of these problems, this sort of thing could happen more often and on a larger scale. I believe this last paragraph is absolutely correct...More than concern is necesary. I believe.that class inequities, as well as regional inequities fuel hatred and distrust.
...Not only must the world address these problems, it must do so now, in a massive way. And really make an effort to solve them ,not just set up some committee to discuss them.... Instant media, allows all to see how the other half lives, and envy and the natural desire to think, "I want my share too" come into play..
..Look deeply into current affairs and you will find this throughout the world..
As far as WWIII, fear, envy,arrogance, hatred, greed and religious radicalism, are all fuel for such a calamity. Who knows if the spark will ever ignite?. Stuart

[sun]

Fires in France (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/07/AR2005110701286.html) This view, writtin an hour ago, for tomorrows newspaper, is from the Washington Post, off of Google..Stuart

[solarflere]

Fires in France (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/07/AR2005110701286.html) This view, writtin an hour ago, for tomorrows newspaper, is from the Washington Post, off of Google..Stuart
The whole article is full of contradictions, sugar coating and BS. Reading that, one might get an idea that everything said so far abour the Race Riots has been false. I don't beliave a word of it.

[Psycho Fox]

Thats what the media reports, exactly to a letter. But that's not the real problem, the real problem is that france has many anti-western terrorist cells oparating there, using it as a safehaven, and France was refusing to aknowledge and deal with the problem. Two people electrecuted themselvs and all hell broke loose? I don't buy it. There either is or was an alterior motive there.
If you understood French history would see this as just another French class struggle, they have a very long history of stuff like this. I can assure you the terrorist don't want to play with these rioters as leaders of orginized terrorist orginizations don't want to legitimize a class war due to class existing withing terrorist orginizations (Bin Laden is far from working class).

[solarflere]

If you understood French history would see this as just another French class struggle, they have a very long history of stuff like this. I can assure you the terrorist don't want to play with these rioters as leaders of orginized terrorist orginizations don't want to legitimize a class war due to class existing withing terrorist orginizations (Bin Laden is far from working class).And you know this for a fact how?

[SilverKnight]

“We are facing determined individuals, structured gangs.”I don't know about you, but riots are not supposed to be structured.

Maybe I'm off here, but from my point of view, a sudden race/class riot would be a hodge-podge of angry people attacking anything they see as a symbol of whatever force is oppressing them. "Structure", while possibly a poor choice of words, implies that these rioters have a plan. And whatever that plan may be, it's apparently working. Now Belgium, Germany, and Denmark are facing "race/class riots" too.

I don't buy into conspiracy theories, but I don't buy into the simplest available conclusion, either. Especially not when the facts are adding up to something else. Two kids are electrocuted, there's an "isolated riot", and out of nowhere, half the country is getting torched? Not just attacking police force or random violence; no, they're attacking vital instruments to the economy. Attacking schools, businesses, transporation systems, my guess is a couple of power plants might very well be assaulted too, in the near future. I suppose the kids getting killed could very well be the straw that broke the camel's back, but even so, why would the violence suddenly spread to other countries? It was an isolated incident, even if it was inflicting an entire country. When there were widespread riots in America during the 60's, did Canada or Mexico start rioting a few days later? How about England? Australia, maybe?

It may sound crazy, but there's something very wrong with all of this. These "riots" don't ring true. One thing's for certain; this whole situation reeks of foreboding.

[solarflere]

Maybe I'm off here, but from my point of view, a sudden race/class riot would be a hodge-podge of angry people attacking anything they see as a symbol of whatever force is oppressing them. "Structure", while possibly a poor choice of words, implies that these rioters have a plan. And whatever that plan may be, it's apparently working. Now Belgium, Germany, and Denmark are facing "race/class riots" too.

I don't buy into conspiracy theories, but I don't buy into the simplest available conclusion, either. Especially not when the facts are adding up to something else. Two kids are electrocuted, there's an "isolated riot", and out of nowhere, half the country is getting torched? Not just attacking police force or random violence; no, they're attacking vital instruments to the economy. Attacking schools, businesses, transporation systems, my guess is a couple of power plants might very well be assaulted too, in the near future. I suppose the kids getting killed could very well be the straw that broke the camel's back, but even so, why would the violence suddenly spread to other countries? It was an isolated incident, even if it was inflicting an entire country. When there were widespread riots in America during the 60's, did Canada or Mexico start rioting a few days later? How about England? Australia, maybe?

It may sound crazy, but there's something very wrong with all of this. These "riots" don't ring true. One thing's for certain; this whole situation reeks of foreboding. That is my point exactly, only better phrased. The two kids were not killed by anybody besides themselvs. These riots have absolutely no connection to the incident, not the bad economy coverup.

[Psycho Fox]

And you know this for a fact how?
The riots have spread too fast and gotten to much support for it to be run by outside agitators, Al Qaeda just doesn't have the numbers and support pull something like this off. As for the rioters, they would relate more with Ernesto "Che" Guevara then Bin Laden, and in the Middle East it is leftist that is the threat to Al Qaeda so they really don't want to help spread the popularity of "Che".

[Psycho Fox]

I suppose the kids getting killed could very well be the straw that broke the camel's back, but even so, why would the violence suddenly spread to other countries? It was an isolated incident, even if it was inflicting an entire country. When there were widespread riots in America during the 60's, did Canada or Mexico start rioting a few days later? How about England? Australia, maybe?

Communications are better now, back in the 20's and 30's riots did spread like wild fire but as it took so long for word to spread by the time a new riot broke out the riot that sparked it cooled down, same with the 60's

[SilverKnight]

The riots have spread too fast and gotten to much support for it to be run by outside agitators, Al Qaeda just doesn't have the numbers and support pull something like this off. As for the rioters, they would relate more with Ernesto "Che" Guevara then Bin Laden, and in the Middle East it is leftist that is the threat to Al Qaeda so they really don't want to help spread the popularity of "Che".I think the point solarflare is making is that these riots might not have been riots at all...or at least not initially. Besides, Al Qaeda wouldn't need manpower. They'd just need a good tense situation, start some random violence to fuel the fire, and then let the angry, impovershed citizens take over. They didn't maintain the violence, and didn't need to; they just got the ball rolling. The rioters joined in all too readily afterwards, thinking their fellow people were disrupting everything over the injustices they have faced.

Never the less, I won't outright say it was a terrorist cell, but this whole thing stinks. Look at the evidence; I mean, really look at it. Who were the initial rioters? Why did they riot? How did word get to the would-be rioters in other cities? Why did it spread to other countries? What injusticies are they rioting over, and why would they pick now to do it?

I understand that it's hectic and not much word can get out, but note that none of this information has been released or even hinted about. None. In an era of no less than three full-time news channels and oversaturation of information, why the hell haven't we even been told the dead kids' names? I'm telling you, there's something up.

[solarflere]

The riots have spread too fast and gotten to much support for it to be run by outside agitators, Al Qaeda just doesn't have the numbers and support pull something like this off. As for the rioters, they would relate more with Ernesto "Che" Guevara then Bin Laden, and in the Middle East it is leftist that is the threat to Al Qaeda so they really don't want to help spread the popularity of "Che".It could have been started by a terrorist cell and just grew exponentionaly. It only takes a spark to start a fire. Besides, I never said it was Al Qaeda. It could have been any splinter cell that folows Bin Laden's teachings. There are pleanty of them. Especialy in France. Before the 9/11, Germany was a safehaven for them. They hid there and no one wanted to find them. But then Gremany joined the war on terror and everything changed. Thet no longer show a blind eye to those terror cells. They deal with them. In case you are wondering, my source is the History channel and the 9/11 commisions report book which I read completely.

[Psycho Fox]

I think the point solarflare is making is that these riots might not have been riots at all...or at least not initially. Besides, Al Qaeda wouldn't need manpower. They'd just need a good tense situation, start some random violence to fuel the fire, and then let the angry, impovershed citizens take over. They didn't maintain the violence, and didn't need to; they just got the ball rolling. The rioters joined in all too readily afterwards, thinking their fellow people were disrupting everything over the injustices they have faced.

Never the less, I won't outright say it was a terrorist cell, but this whole thing stinks. Look at the evidence; I mean, really look at it. Who were the initial rioters? Why did they riot? How did word get to the would-be rioters in other cities? Why did it spread to other countries? What injusticies are they rioting over, and why would they pick now to do it?

If you look at history this is how it usally goes, revolutions doesn't come with a warning they just explode on the scene and spread like wild fire (Yes I am calling this a revolution as even though it is directionless it has the same energy as a revolution, thus mostly likly it would be a failed revolution). This is why it can't be a plot by Bin Laden terrorist as they are not stupid enough to play with the flame of revolution as this could spread to Middle East, Iran has a class problem too so the youth of Iran could by tossing molotov cocktails around because of the rioters in France. Trust me the last thing Bin Laden wants is Che becoming popular in the middle east.

[solarflere]

If you look at history this is how it usally goes, revolutions doesn't come with a warning they just explode on the scene and spread like wild fire (Yes I am calling this a revolution as even though it is directionless it has the same energy as a revolution, thus mostly likly it would be a failed revolution). This is why it can't be a plot by Bin Laden terrorist as they are not stupid enough to play with the flame of revolution as this could spread to Middle East, Iran has a class problem too so the youth of Iran could by tossing molotov cocktails around because of the rioters in France. Trust me the last thing Bin Laden wants is Che becoming popular in the middle east.This is not a revolution, not even close. This is chaos and anarky. And as Silvernight said, this whole thing stinks due to the lack of real news instead of bunch of sugar coated coverups.

[Clayface]

I understand that it's hectic and not much word can get out, but note that none of this information has been released or even hinted about. None. In an era of no less than three full-time news channels and oversaturation of information, why the hell haven't we even been told the dead kids' names? I'm telling you, there's something up.

Perhaps "something's up". Or perhaps you just haven't looked into the evidence yourself. It took me about 30 seconds with a google search to turn up the dead kids' names (http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/11/06/news/family.php). There's a plethora of information out there, and none of it supports these ridiculous, poorly thought out conspiracy theories. An unfortuante incident occured, some trouble-makers used it as an excuse to cause havok and destruction, it grew (thanks to already existing unrest), and ultimately snowballed out of control because of the poor response by the government.

[Psycho Fox]

This is not a revolution, not even close. This is chaos and anarky. And as Silvernight said, this whole thing stinks due to the lack of real news instead of bunch of sugar coated coverups.
Actually it is a revolution just not a full scale revolution or a very good one. The only difference to the 1968 Paris revolt is there you had orginization and direction, while this has more energy but no orginization or direction, thus why I said it would likely turn into a failed revolution.

[solarflere]

Actually it is a revolution just not a full scale revolution or a very good one. The only difference to the 1968 Paris revolt is there you had orginization and direction, while this has more energy but no orginization or direction, thus why I said it would likely turn into a failed revolution.A revolution has a goal, this is mindless destruction.

[Psycho Fox]

A revolution has a goal, this is mindless destruction.
Each rioter is frustrated with the system meaning they are revolting aginst the system (which is what a revolutionary is), the problem is that as a group these frustrations and goals don't form a unified general direction and goal thus while it is a revolution it is a very poorly run one.

[solarflere]

Each rioter is frustrated with the system meaning they are revolting aginst the system (which is what a revolutionary is), the problem is that as a group these frustrations and goals don't form a unified general direction and goal thus while it is a revolution it is a very poorly run one.This is not a revolution, no matter what anyone may call it, its pointless destruction. As I said before, a revolt has its goals, government change, a certain demands that were not met etc...But this it just a rece riot. As some news channels called it, a Muslim Jihad toward the westerners. Denmark is in the same situation. Germany and Belgium are caught in this too, but not as much.

[Psycho Fox]

This is not a revolution, no matter what anyone may call it, its pointless destruction. As I said before, a revolt has its goals, government change, a certain demands that were not met etc...But this it just a rece riot.
A revolution is "A sudden or momentous change in a situation", the rioters in France are all aiming for a momentous change thus it is a revolution since revolution is their goal, they will fail because the only thing they can agree on is revolution thus it will be a failed revolution.

[solarflere]

A revolution is "A sudden or momentous change in a situation", the rioters in France are all aiming for a momentous change thus it is a revolution since revolution is their goal, they will fail because the only thing they can agree on is revolution thus it will be a failed revolution.Their goal (if they have any) is destruction, not revolution. You can't just put a label on the situation and go to sleep, this is a serious matter that is spilling all over Europe. Which part of revolution is it to burn cars, churches, nurcery schools and other Non Muslim properity?

[Psycho Fox]

Their goal (if they have any) is destruction, not revolution.
What evidince do you have that the destruction is the ends and not the means?

You can't just put a label on the situation and go to sleep, this is a serious matter that is spilling all over Europe.

Your the one trying to labeling this a terrorist plot, ingoring there are serious class issues in these nations.

Which part of revolution is it to burn cars, churches, nurcery schools and other Non Muslim properity?
A misguided badly run revolution is still a revolution.

[solarflere]

What evidince do you have that the destruction is the ends and not the means?

Your the one trying to labeling this a terrorist plot, ingoring there are serious class issues in these nations.

A misguided badly run revolution is still a revolution.You have been brainwashed by all of the mass media. You are ignoring the real situation. Threre is no revolution, wake up and smell the cofee, class issues? Thats whan they want you to think nd you bought into it instantly.

[Psycho Fox]

You have been brainwashed by all of the mass media. You are ignoring the real situation. Threre is no revolution, wake up and smell the cofee, class issues? Thats whan they want you to think nd you bought into it instantly.
And what is the real situation? You think terrorist are to blame? why?

[Scorpio_G]

Has anyone ever thought that maybe it's one part revolution and one part random rioting. Where one group wants to fuel a revolution againts France ignoring poverished minorities for decades and one part just wants to burn $@!% up?

I do agree with Solflair that this is kindof odd but in a way it's interesting to see what happens. And I agree with Psycho Fox.

If we look back in past riots people would riot for unjustice (LA Riots), racial unequality (MLK Riot in NYC after MLK was assassinated), political (Chicago, IL during the Republican convention*), unfavoritism or overexcitedness (random riots you see on MaxX :sweat:), or religious reasons (you know...) This riot has most if not all of these catagories I listed.

What's even more amazing is that these riots are spreading out like a airborn virus and it's effecting other countries like Germany and others. (I didnt hear if any more contries are experiencing riots.) But that's because we live in a globalized society where we can get information in about 2 or 3 minutes from anywhere in the world.

Edit: And about the theory that terrorist is behind this. I dont really think so. If we look at the LA and MLK assasination riots in NYC the whole reason why the MLK riots began in the first place was because of the assasination of MLK in which the goverment or police official or any govermental official was not involved in (except for the LA riots). People got pissed, they start to riot in their own neighborhoods and in adjacent ones.

That's what's happening now in France. Two kids who come from a minority group that's improvished and and feels that's negleted by the goverment gets electrocuted to death which was of no falt of the police officers or goverment. A group of the same minorites becomes mad at the goverment. Some use their rage to protest against gov and some use their rage to retaliate against the goverment.

Terrorist like Al Queda and others do not riot. They are very articulate with planning and waiting. That is their style. This shows in The 93' bombings, the the US Embasy bombings in Africa, 911* and The Pentagon*, The Madrid, Phillipine**, and UK bombings. They do not care about local or nationalistic problems in contries they only care about practicing extream fundalmentalist islamic religion, their detest of occupying countries in islamic countries (Isreal and US since we do help them) and the destruction of Westurn civilization. Yes, they use local and nationalistic problems whenever they recrute but they change the idividual's piorities in the long run from " We! We! We!" To " You! You! You!"

IMO a lot of you guys dont understand how a world war starts. In order for that to happen a group of countries have to be at war with another group of countries. These riots wont start WWIII 'cause these rioters are 'fighting' about national issues with France not with another country. Really these riots kind of remind me of the graphic novel V for Vendetta in which:

The country slowy begins to degenerate while V continues to terrorise New England until the improvished people began to riot against the goverment. Causing the instutution to implode on itself and England became a goverment free country.

* There is now speculation that the Pentagon and World Trade 9/11 attacks was premeditated by the gov. Dont yell at me! I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm being borderline! I'm just saying what I read/view since were on the subject. Talk amoungs yourselves.

**I think it was either the Phillipines or Fiji that had a terrorist attack in a Hotel 3 years ago. I know for a fact it was one of thoes islands in the Pacific South West. Or maybe it was Sri Lanka.

[solarflere]

And what is the real situation? You think terrorist are to blame? why?Because the muslims are burning/destroying everything non muslim. Explain that.
Oh, and Scorpio_G, news reports show realy bad violence in Denmark, and moderate violance in Germany and Belgium.

[Delthayre]

Because the muslims are burning/destroying everything non muslim. Explain that.
Oh, and Scorpio_G, news reports show realy bad violence in Denmark, and moderate violance in Germany and Belgium.
They're poor, socially marginalized, disaffected, and unemployed. Indeed this is because they come from other countries and are muslims, but these aren't acts of radical Islaamists. Certainly some ambitious Islaamists may try to turn some of the rioters to his cause, and the sort of social disaffection at the root of this could lead to an increase in radical Islaamism in France, but it's not terrorism in the specific sense. They're destroying things that aren't Muslim because their perceived oppressors happen to not be muslim whereas they are. I wouldn't be suprised to learn at the end of this that some muslims who tried to stay out of the riots were injured, had property destroyed, or lost their livelyhoods a consequence of this.

[solarflere]

They're poor, socially marginalized, disaffected, and unemployed. Indeed this is because they come from other countries and are muslims, but these aren't acts of radical Islaamists. Certainly some ambitious Islaamists may try to turn some of the rioters to his cause, and the sort of social disaffection at the root of this could lead to an increase in radical Islaamism in France, but it's not terrorism in the specific sense. They're destroying things that aren't Muslim because their perceived oppressors happen to not be muslim whereas they are. I wouldn't be suprised to learn at the end of this that some muslims who tried to stay out of the riots were injured, had property destroyed, or lost their livelyhoods a consequence of this.Arlight, all of you bought into this poverty crap that the news is pushing down our throats, but what are the reasons for race riots on other contries? Anyone want to blame global warming for this one? [/sarcasm]

[randomguy]

Arlight, all of you bought into this poverty crap that the news is pushing down our throats, but what are the reasons for race riots on other contries? Anyone want to blame global warming for this one? [/sarcasm]Would it be any better of us to buy into your angle on events, despite your steadfast refusal to present a cogent argument across more than a dozen posts?

You act so exasperated when people don't agree with your theory, even when you've failed utterly to articulate that theory beyond "this is what really happened and you're stupid to not believe that." You will have to do better than a half-baked conspiracy theory to bring me over, good sir.

[Delthayre]

It is not poetry crap, it is what I think is the case based upon my examination of the facts. Throughout history things like this have happened. The country that played host to immigrant draft riots in the middle of the 19th century, the Watts riots in the 60s, and the LA riots in the 90s should not find this unfamiliar or exception.

It could as easily be suggested that your ideological predilections demand that this be terrorism rather than simply the traditional habit of the disenfranchised who feel as if they have no legitimate recourse. Terrorism would be a convenient explanation, but I do not think that it is the real one. If your ideas are to the contrary, as they would emphatically seem to be, then I should think that your task is to present some considerable arguments rather than exasperation that no one seems content to just believe you at your churlish bequest.

[solarflere]

Would it be any better of us to buy into your angle on events, despite your steadfast refusal to present a cogent argument across more than a dozen posts?

You act so exasperated when people don't agree with your theory, even when you've failed utterly to articulate that theory beyond "this is what really happened and you're stupid to not believe that." You will have to do better than a half-baked conspiracy theory to bring me over, good sir.You have to learn to read between the lines of the half-truths the media is reporting. I once again ask everyone to explain the race riots. The whole thing started with two kids electecuting themselfs. They happaned to be muslim. After that, all hell broke lose and the majority of the countries muslim population desides to riot, burn (non muslim) cars, places of worship, schools and so forth. All of which is being excused due to the fact (I am not deniyng this) that the French economic unrest and povery levels. Now, thaty may very well be true, but it was not the cause of the riot due to the lack of connection between the two kids getting killed and extreme poverty. That does not add up. There were other factors for the cause of the riot that none of us are aware of.

[Scorpio_G]

You have to learn to read between the lines of the half-truths the media is reporting. I once again ask everyone to explain the race riots. The whole thing started with two kids electecuting themselfs. They happaned to be muslim. After that, all hell broke lose and the majority of the countries muslim population desides to riot, burn (non muslim) cars, places of worship, schools and so forth. All of which is being excused due to the fact (I am not deniyng this) that the French economic unrest and povery levels. Now, thaty may very well be true, but it was not the cause of the riot due to the lack of connection between the two kids getting killed and extreme poverty. That does not add up. There were other factors for the cause of the riot that none of us are aware of.
I understand your theory Solarflere but the only reason I can think the media is reporting the riots 'wrong' is because they're either:

A) France is twisting the facts 'cause they dont want any 'I told you sos' for the Egale.
B) The US media is Twisting the facts from france television because a little egale told them too for payback.
C) What we see is what we get.

Explaining it more would break TZ rules about politics so I'm sorry to say but I have to stop it here.

[Delthayre]

You have to learn to read between the lines of the half-truths the media is reporting. I once again ask everyone to explain the race riots. The whole thing started with two kids electecuting themselfs. They happaned to be muslim. After that, all hell broke lose and the majority of the countries muslim population desides to riot, burn (non muslim) cars, places of worship, schools and so forth. All of which is being excused due to the fact (I am not deniyng this) that the French economic unrest and povery levels. Now, thaty may very well be true, but it was not the cause of the riot due to the lack of connection between the two kids getting killed and extreme poverty. That does not add up. There were other factors for the cause of the riot that none of us are aware of.
You have not expained or provided any evidence for your claims that the media is spreading half truths or any that the riots are religiously motivated. You have not presented any substantiation for your claims that only the cars of people who are not muslims have been destroyed. I find that particularly difficult to accept becaue riots, abstractly speaking, aren't that precise.

The eletrocution of the two boys triggering the riots does not have an obvious connection to the idea of poverty, but riots are seldom that rational. Riots are often triggered by a percieved act of opression by what could be vaguely considered a common foe and agent of disenfranchisement. The two muslim boys fled police who were coming to undertake immigration ID checks, they died and whether or not the Parisian police are to blame, it was enough to set alight long standing class and ethnic tensions in France. The Watts riots and the 1992 LA riots both began under similar circumstances. A disadvantaged group saw what they considered an unjust act undertaken against one of their community by the agents of the majority, this cause violent anger and from there madness ensues without much regard for how logical it may be.

[Ben]

What bothers me is this rampant discrimination against the letter "C."

This is not a revolution, not even close. This is chaos and anarky.

An unfortuante incident occured, some trouble-makers used it as an excuse to cause havok

I blame communism. Definitely smells like communism in here. Or possibly the Illuminati.

[Artimus Gigan]

Riots like this happen all over the world when poor people with towering frustraitions amass in one area.

However despite their destructive nature it is not going to ignite anything other than a massive clean-up effort and a whole lotta filled jail cells.

Best thing to do is not take part in a situation like this, and avoid the areas that are currently in chaos

If however you do find yourself amidst the chaos and have no escape then the only thing you can do is this:

Stockpile a bunch of these babies, hole yourself up in your house, and stick to the 2 bullet rule:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/00pie/playroom.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/00pie/biggun.jpg

[solarflere]

You have not expained or provided any evidence for your claims that the media is spreading half truths or any that the riots are religiously motivated. You have not presented any substantiation for your claims that only the cars of people who are not muslims have been destroyed. I find that particularly difficult to accept becaue riots, abstractly speaking, aren't that precise.

The eletrocution of the two boys triggering the riots does not have an obvious connection to the idea of poverty, but riots are seldom that rational. Riots are often triggered by a percieved act of opression by what could be vaguely considered a common foe and agent of disenfranchisement. The two muslim boys fled police who were coming to undertake immigration ID checks, they died and whether or not the Parisian police are to blame, it was enough to set alight long standing class and ethnic tensions in France. The Watts riots and the 1992 LA riots both began under similar circumstances. A disadvantaged group saw what they considered an unjust act undertaken against one of their community by the agents of the majority, this cause violent anger and from there madness ensues without much regard for how logical it may be.A riot is usualy triggered by a single act, plus all of the things that have been burried deep inside of every individual. I would agree with you if the police were directly responsible for the deaths of the two kids. But the fact is that they weren't. And even if they were to blame, then the riot would be blamed on police brutality not poverty. That is what does not make any sence. The riots are blamed on poverty and not police brutality because the cops had nothing to do with the deaths of the two kids. So what connection does povery have to the dwo kids killing themselvs you still didn't explain. That one single missing link makes me beliave that the truth is not what it is preceived to be.

Now, I will withdraw from further discusing this matter since I am obviously not wanted here anymore. I have overstayed my welcome in this thread and I am sorry if I offended anyone here. That was not my intention I feel bad for it.

[SilverKnight]

Perhaps "something's up". Or perhaps you just haven't looked into the evidence yourself. It took me about 30 seconds with a google search to turn up the dead kids' names (http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/11/06/news/family.php). There's a plethora of information out there, and none of it supports these ridiculous, poorly thought out conspiracy theories. An unfortuante incident occured, some trouble-makers used it as an excuse to cause havok and destruction, it grew (thanks to already existing unrest), and ultimately snowballed out of control because of the poor response by the government.Well crap. That's what I get for being stupid enough to even partially rely on cable news networks being anywhere near informative. Then again, it was their complete lack of information that caught my attention. I suppose I should know better by now.

[Delthayre]

A riot is usualy triggered by a single act, plus all of the things that have been burried deep inside of every individual. I would agree with you if the police were directly responsible for the deaths of the two kids. But the fact is that they weren't. And even if they were to blame, then the riot would be blamed on police brutality not poverty. That is what does not make any sence. The riots are blamed on poverty and not police brutality because the cops had nothing to do with the deaths of the two kids. So what connection does povery have to the dwo kids killing themselvs you still didn't explain. That one single missing link makes me beliave that the truth is not what it is preceived to be. Whether the police actually chased the boys, therefor leading to their seeking refuge in the electrical transformer that killed them, is in contention. Interior Minister Sarkozy maintains that they were not physically chased, whereas the friends of the boys testified contrarily and the rioters most likely believe that they were pursued. Perhaps in a rational setting without a disadvantaged, marginalized, often resented, and largely unhappy population, that the deaths were a tragic accident would be recognized, but the situation isn't nearly so rational. The French muslim population and native French exist in near mutual contempt of each other.

The riots have their source in poverty because the impverished people at least subconsciously hold their state, perhaps somewht rightly, against the French authorities. Downtrodden groups have a tendency to revolt. Poverty is the root cause of the riots, it is what has created a situation that could lead to such violence. The actions of the police and the deaths of the boys is what set the situation off, but are not why it is happening. If any consciousness could be ascribed to this riot, that collective mind must blame the police for deaths of the boys, but then spiral with decreasing rationality into a litany of injustices and cruelties. There is a difference between what begins something and what causes or allows something to happen.

It may not appear rational, but that's part of why things are happening as they are. This is not the result of a rational situation, it is the result of fears, prejuidices, and a host of humanity's worse traits run amoc.

Now, I will withdraw from further discusing this matter since I am obviously not wanted here anymore. I have overstayed my welcome in this thread and I am sorry if I offended anyone here. That was not my intention I feel bad for it. It is not a matter of overstaying your welcome, it is a matter of your never having provided any argument for your assertion of media dishonesty, targeted destruction, or extremist motivation of the riots. I doubt you have offended anyone, but I suspect you may have frustrated more than a few.

[zmanjz]

Riots like this happen all over the world when poor people with towering frustraitions amass in one area.

However despite their destructive nature it is not going to ignite anything other than a massive clean-up effort and a whole lotta filled jail cells.

Best thing to do is not take part in a situation like this, and avoid the areas that are currently in chaos

If however you do find yourself amidst the chaos and have no escape then the only thing you can do is this:

Stockpile a bunch of these babies, hole yourself up in your house, and stick to the 2 bullet rule:


Ah yes, the 7.62mm Mini-Gun A personal Favorite. I got to play with one last time I got inside a Blackhawk down at andrews.

Is that a Ma Duce in the other? or a 30 Cal?

EDIT: Naw, there's an M2 on the wall, so the other one has to be a .30 Cal with AAA Barrel


(I also like the TommyGun in the upper left hand corner, and the MP5 in the upper right hand corner.)

Oh, and on a side note, Situations like this are the reason why every law abiding citizen should have the right and the capability to use firearms to defend their family from a horde of rampaging people.

[Delthayre]

Ah yes, the 7.62mm Mini-Gun A personal Favorite. I got to play with one last time I got inside a Blackhawk down at andrews.

Is that a Ma Duce in the other? or a 30 Cal?

EDIT: Naw, there's an M2 on the wall, so the other one has to be a .30 Cal with AAA Barrel


(I also like the TommyGun in the upper left hand corner, and the MP5 in the upper right hand corner.)
I like the H&K G36s (G36E and G36K, looks like) myself. I've never fired one (or any gun, truthfully), but I always thought they looked cool.

[sun]

Must we discuss the merits and qualities of certain weapons inside a thread on Rioting and Burning in France?

[wonderfly]

:eek:

I could be wrong...but I thought I saw on the last couple pages what appeared to be some Moderators agreeing, (or rather, siding) with PsychoFox...I never thought I'd see the day. :p

Here's my take: It's a riot, that has the POTENTIAL for Revolution...this has the possibility to change things in Europe for the better, or for the worse. Thus, the seeds for true revolution are there. Especially if nothing is done by the weak French govt. to fix this problem, (why haven't they called the army in?!? A little Martial Law never hurt anybody... ;))

Also, there may truly be some Islamic terrorists in amidst the rioters, but I don't believe they are what started this mess. And besides, there have been reports of Islamic Clerics in France basically said something like, "If you want to get to heaven, stop rioting!"

[Delthayre]

On another message board, one of most eccentric purpose and character, I frequent one of the members is a detective with the financial crimes division of the Parisian police force. While he himself is not involved with the riots, he has talked with expert colleagues on the possibility of it being an Islaamic plot, which they dismiss.

But there quite probably are some racist undertones, but I stll believe than an inequitable social and economic situation is what fostered the situation.

The detective also mentioned that the anti-terrorist unit head has mentioned hat the rioters want to, "even the score." Since two muslims boys were killed, they won't stop until two cops die. Of course since riots are simply not that focused or guided, a hundred police could die with no end to the chaos.

[sun]

The roiting was reduced last night, but not stopped...The crefew the government instituted did not work completely..Many cars were still burned, and peace not totally restored..

[Chris Wood]

Oh, and on a side note, Situations like this are the reason why every law abiding citizen should have the right and the capability to use firearms to defend their family from a horde of rampaging people.

Er, because things would be safer with thousands of amateurs filling the streets full of lead? I'd rather leave the shooting to the professionals.

Incidentally this thread title reminds me of a song:

Paris is Burning (Dokken)

This town I'm in can't take no more
Decadance and sin
You were my woman
Why'd you have to be so hard and cold

[Chorus 1]
Paris is burning
Want to see it from afar
Paris is burning
Want to get to where you are

My life's in ruin
The girl I love
She's far away
The distant fire
Brings memories of the love
That I once knew
Where are you now
Been looking all around
And I can't stay
Help me now
I can't stay
Much more before I fade away

[Chorus 2]
Paris is burning
I can see it from afar
Paris is burning
Want to get to where you are