"Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince" Talkback (Spoilers)

[Mike Spartz]

The second war begins....
http://www.hogwarts-gallery.org/hogwartsgallery/galleries/Books/hbp_adultbloomsbury.jpg



Release Date: July 16th, 2005
Publisher: Raincoast Books (http://thefullm.com/?go=books&url1=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.toonzone.net%2Fnewthread. php), Bloomsbury Books (http://postfiking.com/?go=books&url1=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.toonzone.net%2Fnewthread. php)
Length:
Trade version (US): 672 pages
Trade version (UK): 608 pages
Deluxe edition (US): 704 pages

Summary (UK): It is the middle of the summer, but there is an unseasonal mist pressing against the windowpanes. Harry Potter is waiting nervously in his bedroom at the Dursleys' house in Privet Drive for a visit from Professor Dumbledore himself. One of the last times he saw the Headmaster was in a fierce one-on-one duel with Lord Voldemort, and Harry can't believe that Professor Dumbledore will actually appear at the Dursleys' of all places. Why is the Professor coming to visit him now? What is it that cannot wait until Harry returns to Hogwarts in a few weeks' time? Harry's sixth year at Hogwarts has already got off to an unusual start, as the worlds of Muggle and magic start to intertwine...

Comments?

Will Ron and Hermione finally get together? Will Harry take NEWT level potions? Discuss the new book here!

[BeastBoyWonder]

I know this is sort of off-topic, but I cannot wait to get my hands on this! Since my sis back home is getting a copy, I'm too cheap to buy one on my own... but my best friend is going to loan me his copy as soon as he's done with it. Hopefully it'll exceed all of our expectations!

[Azrael24]

i dont have any money but hopefully my parents will be nice enough to lend me some money:shrug:. i cant wait to read it!! i agree with steel that i hope it exceed our expectations, and by a long shot!!

[Steve Jester]

Little under 3 hours for east coast. But I still have to wait untill UPS send my book in the morning. I'll probably still be awake ;)

[atf487]

i cannot wait to get this either, but stupidly, i never even thought to pre order it or anything.

i'm gonna have a go at getting it on sunday...maybe :sad:

[Steve Jester]

under an hour on the east coast!!!!!!!!!! :eek::evil: (I missed useing the evil smiley!)

[Azrael24]

hour and a half!!

or at least over here. i should have preordered too, im not getting it at midnight, i'll just wait till tomorrow.

[silverwings]

It's coming between 9am and 7pm tomorrow. It's going to be a painful day.. :crying:

[Steve Jester]

little over 5 mins. on east coast! !!!!!!!:evil:

[purplehairedwonder]

Gah, I don't want to wait until Sunday! But I won't be back in town to get it. And I still need to finish OotP again (about 300 pages to go :sweat: )

[and2]

Im gonna buy it the moment i leave the dentist tomorrow, i hope sams isnt that full

[Phantasm]

Just came back from the midnight party at Barnes and Nobles!!!!!

I have HP and the HBP!!!!!:D
yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The only question is, how will I sleep tonight?!:p

[TnAdct1]

Got back from a Borders Harry Potter party a about 40 minutes ago. Will start reading it as soon as I finish my business here.

BTW, while at the party, a couple of people thought that I was the splitting image of the guy from the Numa Numa video (well, I did get a haircut on Thursday).

[Yash]

I've read the first seven chapters (through *ahem* methods I can't discuss), it's pretty good so far. Who wants spoilers?

The narrative notes of Dumbledore's ring... Draco's a Death Eater... where I'm at it hasn't got this far, but I've read descriptions on Wikipedia's page for HBP, and it says that Snape is the new Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher... a man named Horace Slughorn (basically he's a friend of Dumbledore's who is pretty knowledgable on how to pick out people who'll succeed and has made his way through the wizarding world by getting close to famous people) is initially hired for the Dark Arts job, but Dumbledore puts Snape in charge I guess... and Slughorn is the new Potions teacher, which enables Harry to get into N.E.W.T. level Potions after all (he only got an E).

And guess what? Felix Felicis? A potion of all things.

[BeastBoyWonder]

Well, i'm through chapter ten (took me a while because I got the book late), but so far it is excellent. Its a much different tone than the last couple books, but that was to be expected.

[Mike Spartz]

I just got back from midnight madness!!! I have my book and I'm sooooooo happpyyyy!!!!!!!!:anime: :anime: :anime: :anime: :anime: :anime: :anime: :anime: :anime:

READING NOW!!!!!

See you later!!!

[BeastBoyWonder]

Finished it a couple hours ago. Very interesting book, but I don't want to spoil it so I'll hold off on the commentary.

[RayChuang]

...I find this book to be far more readable than Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix. In many ways, it's probably Rowling's best HP novel since Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban.

By the way--

--don't you just love that opening chapter with the meeting between the Muggle Prime Minister and Cornelius Fudge? I can just imagine how one Tony Blair would look in that role.... :sweat:

As for Draco Malfoy being a Death Eater--I think he didn't become a Death Eater I would be EXTREMELY surprised.

I am pleasantly surprised that Clarissa Malfoy--Lucius' wife--has a prominent role in this novel. She was just mentioned in passing in Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire.

Will discuss more when I get through more of the novel. :)

[Phantasm]

OH MY GOD!!!!!
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
I hate Snape SO much!!!!!
How can he...?But real interesting to see he has a soft spot for Ms. Malfoy...

How do you put spoiler tags by the way?I'll need to know that for this thread.

[Lord Dalek]

I'll be picking up mine in an hour and 20 minutes.

[atf487]

i just picked mine up, and i felt like such a loser. the woman there gave me a strange look...

but i was on another forum, and uhh...i thought this was funny:

"Errr 'Arry , you happear to 'ave made a sloight problam wiv your latest spull" grumbled Trimbledee dejectedly.
"Oh, Trimbledee, *snort snort* what do you know about it you rotter! MWHA guffaw!" replied Harry, grabbing a line of coke.
"Lookee here young master, thats no way to be go talkin' to one of yer elders" retorted Trimbledee with a slight tinge of anger.
"Oh I suppose you're right," replied Harry politely, "Mammy always said I could be rude. Now, help me with this spell to get Hermione's training bra off"

[KuwabaraTheMan]

Well, it took me about 6 hours to read(started at 1 AM, finished just before 7), and it was well worth it. Really enjoyable book. I didn't like most of the other DA characters being ignored in this book, and Neville having such a small role after everything that happened in Order of the Phoenix, but aside from those complaints I thought it was wonderful.

[Drachentöter]

I'm trying to take my time reading this one as I don't have the free time I did with Order of the Phoenix and don't want any interruptions during key moments of the book. So far I just finished chapter nine for today.

Some non spoiler notes: I'm starting to wish it were as long and drawn out as the last two books since I'm creeping up on being almost halfway done and sixth year has only just started which means stuff at the end will be even more rushed than usual. Also, I can guess where Rowling had to cut content to make Half Blood Prince less lengthy. There are some prime spots for setting development and characterization that were glossed over in narration.

I don't like the American cover so much. Pretty dull as I think we've read a scene with Dumbledore and Harry looking into a Pensive (or Pensive-like substance) at least twice before. And they used heavy shades of green for the Goblet of Fire cover already plus the back cover is just the three kids looking up at a Dark Mark, though I'm glad to see they're making Ron less ugly. At any rate, the cover on the topic post looks a lot more intriguing.

My initial thoughts on the plot:

-The scene with the Prime Minister surprised me. Rowling could not have been aware of the London attacks at the time of writing the first chapter, but it certainly must be eerily relevant now. I hope critics don't label her as insensitive because of it.

-Obviously, the big "initial shock" for book six is Snape. Personally, I doubt he's been playing for the other team all this time. I'm a little disappointed that Rowling keeps going back to the "is Snape a traitor or not?" game when it's been revisited time and time again, but I guess it's an extremely central theme to the plot. Or she's running out of red herrings to throw at the readers.

At any rate, that Unbreakable Vow is going to be a very sticky situation, I can tell.

-I refused to go beyond chapter nine, so I'm not sure who Harry thinks the "Half Blood Prince" is, but of course any sane person's initial assumption is Voldemort. They even made the Riddle Diary connection, but that makes me somewhat suspicious to jump to the most obvious conclusion. At first I was thinking maybe Lily when Slughorn said she was a good Potions student, but then the "Prince" thing wouldn't make much sense. I haven't been keeping up with the book rumors, so I have no idea if people thought the title referred to Voldemort or not but it would seem a little too....general for the penultimate book if that were the case.

All in all, it's a really satisfying read and it's tempting to go beyond my limit, but I really want to savor this one. I plan to check back on the thread only when I've read ahead, so no fear of any huge spoilers as long as they don't give away the entire ending.

[Lord Dalek]

Pull's out book *SNIFF* Smells like Rowling!

[IanC]

7 hours to finsh reading this book.

What an ending.
Good bye Dumbledore.

Snape's is a bastard basically, i cant believe he killed him. (tho i never really trusted him)

Plus they are acting a bit like teenagers, loved how Rowling described some of the kissing bits.

I dont think book 7 will be set in Hogwarts, going by what Harry says.

[Yash]

Characters calling each other sluts, swearing, and flipping the bird = instant win.

Did your characters finally grow up, Rowling? :sweat:

[Lord Dalek]

Did your characters finally grow up, Rowling? :sweat:Well after the angst fest that was Order of the Pheonix, nothing's sacred in the Potter-verse.

[BeastBoyWonder]

7 hours to finsh reading this book.

What an ending.
Good bye Dumbledore.

Snape's is a bastard basically, i cant believe he killed him. (tho i never really trusted him)

Plus they are acting a bit like teenagers, loved how Rowling described some of the kissing bits.

I dont think book 7 will be set in Hogwarts, going by what Harry says.

My feeling is that I wouldn't go as far as to blatantly call Snape evil yet. There are quite a few things that still don't make sense about it.

[Phantasm]

I'm half way through chapter nine at this point and couldn't help but notice, isn't this book very fast paced? Until now there hasn't been a 'breather' moment and it seems as if important event after important event is thrown hastily in a sequential order, with no apparent down time ,perhaps in fear of lengthening the book?

[mookie75]

How do you put spoiler tags by the way?I'll need to know that for this thread.
I've wondered that for awhile too. It looks like it's just like most other things. use "spoiler" and "/spoiler" in the usual brackets. ---> [ ]

*test spoiler*

[Fone Bone]

My feeling is that I wouldn't go as far as to blatantly call Snape evil yet. There are quite a few things that still don't make sense about it. In what way? I am insanely curious about this as it seemed fairly straightforward to me. I should have known something was up when Rowling made him the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher. It's tricky because the story was written in a such a way that you SHOULD have been shocked at Snape's betrayel. (I know I was). I know Rowling is the master of red herrings but the idea of setting Snape up as a bad guy in the second chapter seemed to be one. But it wasn't. But it was. Does that sound right? The story was written in such a way that you were SUPPOSED to think Snape was up to no good which "clever" readers like myself would realize was a red herring to Snape's motives, but it wasn't. Rowling DIDN'T throw the twist in so it was as shocking a red herring as anything. I mean Harry had been a complete dunb ass through the first five books so the idea that he was right about Malfoy and Snape (although I'm sure we all suspected he was right about Malfoy) was an even bigger shock than if Rowling hadn't written in chapter two that Snape might be a traitor.

Speaking of shocks Dumbledore's murder was the biggest in the book. I kept thinking "This is wrong, Dumbledore's only pretending to be gone this is all just a plan of his and Snape's" and then we saw his body. Then his portrait was on the wall. Then Fawkes left. Then they had his funeral. He's not coming back and I have to admit I felt his death more than Sirius's as Dumbledore has been in the books since the beginning and we really only knew Sirius for three (two if you factor in we spent most of book three believing him a murderer).

And anyone know exactly what the deluxe edition of the book included? I only heard about it from this thread and I hate to think I missed a hundred pages of the story. This was unlike any other book in the series in it's surprises, muted tones, and revelations. I'm still processing it. It doesn't help that we have awesome Teen Titans and Justice League Unlimited episodes tonight. My poor fanboy head is spinning in three directions at once.

[Zero-V]

DON'T click if you hav'nt read the book, this is for those who did

http://darthpotter.ytmnd.com/ (http://darthpotter.ytmnd.com/)

[bigddan11]

All I can say is wow. I knew Dumbledoere would be prominent in this book, but I didn't realize how prominent until the end. I also was shocked to see how Snape was at the end. I never would have thought that Snape was a half blood, much less a Prince. I can see a bunch of romance has dev eloped now in Harry Potter, but it looks like all the minor characters have been pushed aside now. Book 7 is going to be quiet interesting when it's released, but it's a shame it'll probably be July 2007 that it's released at earliest.

[Wounded_Dragon]

Who are these characters and what have they done with my HP cast. Good grief.


I know some people don't like Hermione, but good lord! she transformed into a fraping jealous stupid nag in this one. Ron's still a jealous prick, but he gets women with that behavior? So that's what I've been doing wrong...

Final chapters spoiler
And anyone who DIDN'T think that Snape was going to be a traitor was fooling themselves. If I hear any more "theories" on how Severus is really a good guy I'm gonna sock somebody.

[Fresh V]

Wow, you are finishing this book on the day it came out?!

[Wounded_Dragon]

Wow, you are finishing this book on the day it came out?!
Err...yes. Spoilers were hard enough to avoid before the book came out. Now they'll be practically impossible. TZ's relatively safe in that regard but most of my HP places aren't.

Plus, I wanted to get the pain out of the way. You ever get that burning pain in your muscles when you're exercising too much but you're trying to push through? That's what it felt like reading this book.

[bigddan11]

What do you mean why are you finishing it in one day. It took me roughly 10 hours to finish my copy, but 8 of those hours were at work, so in reality it probably took me about 6 1/2 to 7 hours as well.

[zmanjz]

EDIT: I'm removing my spoiler tags. If you dont want to read spoilers, then you're in the wrong thread.

...

I'm overwhelmed.



wow, Snape is a bastard. I mean we all knew this, but it was terrible to see. Personally, even if snape is a double or tripple agent, I hate him for killing Dumbledore.

as for other things that happened..... it was all too rushed.

Harry/Ginny. I've been looking forward to this for over a year, and that's all we get. An aknowledgement that they had great times together, but can't be with each other?!?!?

(I went through this crap between the "reluctant hero and his his beloved-redhead who can't be together because loving the hero is too dangerous" at a funeral, at the end of the first spiderman movie. I hated watching it then, and I hated watching it now.)

seriously, the Harry/Ginny relationship was underwritten. I would rather have waited another 6 months or whatever for her to have fleshed it out more.



Now, what about his reaction to Sirius's death. In OOTP, he had nightmares and angst about the death of Cedric Diggory.... a person that he barely knew. But now, Sirius is dead, one of the few last people he could truly rely on and consider a parental figure, and it seems like he expended any feeling he had about it in OOTP.

the harry/ginny thing is killing me. After all that time that Dumbledore talked about how strong love was, what's the first thing Harry does after Dumbledore's dead but he pushed away his loved ones so that they don't get hurt. I hope Ginny Bat Bogey's him into thinking for a change.

most of the story seemed to be focused on how Riddle became voldemort. I'm glad that we now know the keys to his "Immortality" and I hope that and end can be quickly brought to him, but right now, between the Harry/Ginny thing, and Dumbledore's death, Snape's murder, and Dumbledore's lack of any tactical skill whatsoever, I'm a little upset at the book.

I hope that Ginny realises that Harry is a moron, but that he's worth the trouble.


With 6 books so far, 3 with happy endings, and 3 with horrifying endings, I wonder what the 7th book will hold. Will Rowling's legacy be:

A: Life is hard, but the love makes even the most dire challenges worth fighting.
OR
B: Life sucks.... and then you die.


I'm going to need to re-read this a couple of times... andhopefully, I'll feel better about the story later than I do now.

[mr jinx]

In what way? I am insanely curious about this as it seemed fairly straightforward to me. I should have known something was up when Rowling made him the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher. It's tricky because the story was written in a such a way that you SHOULD have been shocked at Snape's betrayel. (I know I was). I know Rowling is the master of red herrings but the idea of setting Snape up as a bad guy in the second chapter seemed to be one. But it wasn't. But it was. Does that sound right? The story was written in such a way that you were SUPPOSED to think Snape was up to no good which "clever" readers like myself would realize was a red herring to Snape's motives, but it wasn't. Rowling DIDN'T throw the twist in so it was as shocking a red herring as anything. I mean Harry had been a complete dunb ass through the first five books so the idea that he was right about Malfoy and Snape (although I'm sure we all suspected he was right about Malfoy) was an even bigger shock than if Rowling hadn't written in chapter two that Snape might be a traitor.


i was thinking of the princess bride when reading that chapter. *so i could surley not choose the wine in front of me.* as George Bush says, "fool me once shame on... the point is you cant keep fooling me." i was trying to out smart ol Jo but why do i even try. i guess she can keep fooling me.

[Fone Bone]

Still processing...
I have to say I'm a little bit disappointed with Snape's betrayel. Firstly, Dumbledore trusted him so damn much and if J.K. Rowling only used that as an excuse to blindside us I have to grumble that it worked all too well. It also fits in with a disquieting pattern of these books. Despite protestations to the contrary the idea that blood doesn't really matter in making a person a great wizard, it's disquieting that EVERY SINGLE SLYTHERIN CHARACTER IN THE BOOK has turned out to be a bad guy. Snape was INTERESTING in the first five books because despite being a bastard he was working on the side of good after a change of heart. He was the most interesting character in the series because of this contrary nature. I have to say that if Rowling's ultimate moral is that blood doesn't matter she does a disservice to her message by having every single Slytherin character be evil. They are all inter-related and come from the same stock. If there really IS such an anti-prejudice lesson in the books it does a huge disservice to the message by having a group of people segregated and ALL undesirable. It's reverse discrimination by saying that a group of people HAS to be bad just because of what house they belong too.

I also wonder how this will effect the Harry Potter movies. Alan Rickman has always portrayed Snape as kind of an aloof, misunderstood guy. It will certainly be more jarring to see his Snape murder Dumbledore in the sixth movie because while Snape killing him was shocking it was almost understandable with the way he had been behaving in previous books. Despite being "multi-layered":rolleyes: in the first five books it will be most jarring to see Rickman's Snape turn on Dumbledore after giving no real horrible behavior in the movies so far. I really think this turn of events does not bode well for the movie franchise.

On the Harry/Ginny thing although I was originally a Harry/Luna shipper (and I was rewarded with a delightfully ditzy date) I have to say it makes more sense for it to be Ginny. As for Harry telling her at the end that they couldn't be together, I took there to be a silent "yet" at the end of the sentence. Once he vanquishes Voldemort he gave me the impression that was when he'd let himself be happy. I DO have to say that Harry was a total ass in Order of the Pheonix so I was gratified that he was sensible and not too angry in this book. I had been afraid they would extend the hormone plot through this book as well.

As far as the rest of the D.A. not really being invloved with the book I notice that Neville and Luna were both there when it REALLY counted which makes up for their reduced face-time in the book. Indeed if Harry really DOES decide to leave Hogwarts with Ron and Hermione I would like to think Luna, Neville and Ginny would play a role in the book. And I, like Ron was delighted with Luna's Quidditch coverage.

As for the Malfoy having trouble killing Dumbledore, I probably would have thought better of Dumbledore's instincts that Draco should be on the good side if another guy he trusted hadn't just murdered him moments later. As it stands, though I found his crying fits to be surprising I expect horrible things from him in the last book. By the way, his having his head on Pansy Parkinson's lap was just creepy.

I guess in the end year seven at Hogwarts will not actually take place there which was another shock the book offered. I have to say that the book was as good as any book in the series and different enough from the others (the Voldemort flashbacks were fascinating) that I feel jutisfied in giving it ***** despite my disdain for the direction Snape's character has taken.

[Fone Bone]

i was thinking of the princess bride when reading that chapter. *so i could surley not choose the wine in front of me.* as George Bush says, "fool me once shame on... the point is you cant keep fooling me." i was trying to out smart ol Jo but why do i even try. i guess she can keep fooling me.I have YET to succeed in guessing where Rowling's prose is going. It's a good thing but I always feel like an idiot after reading her books.:p

[bigddan11]

You know, last time I saw a lover's group occur like Harry/ Ginny did in this lovely book, it ended with the lady having the last laugh and breaking off a wedding. The film: Spider-Man 2. I see something similiar occurring in Book 7, but I also look at the fact that Ginny and Luna don't know how to apparate, so they can't apparate with the gang like Neville could if he joins up with them.

[the Amanda]

I'm so horribly disappointed. I loved all of the books and Order was my favorite. This book is like a Star Wars prequel -- many favorite characters are there, in name, but they are wooden, hollow shells of themselves.

Dammit, JK, you cannot convey that two people love each other merely by writing "Oh, they had a relationship." Ginny and Harry had maybe one half of a meaningful conversation throughout the whole book. That's inexcusable. Hermione relegated to a bit part is also inexcusable. Pretty much no minor characters (except Ginny) AT ALL hurts me inside. AND I LIKED SNAPE'S CHARACTER DAMN IT, AND NOW HE'S SHALLOW AND BORING. And Dumbledore was a trusting old fool after all... :crying: All the action is relegated to the very end of the book. Malfoy's plot is guessable from the start. It's so bad. It's so very very bad. I'm going to go try to pretend that I didn't read that now.

Oh, and the four flipping horcruxes. Someone's been playing too many video games. Is one of them stashed in an ice world, another in a fire world, another in a jungle, and the fourth in a robot-infested metropolis?

[BeastBoyWonder]

In what way? I am insanely curious about this as it seemed fairly straightforward to me. I should have known something was up when Rowling made him the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher. It's tricky because the story was written in a such a way that you SHOULD have been shocked at Snape's betrayel. (I know I was). I know Rowling is the master of red herrings but the idea of setting Snape up as a bad guy in the second chapter seemed to be one. But it wasn't. But it was. Does that sound right? The story was written in such a way that you were SUPPOSED to think Snape was up to no good which "clever" readers like myself would realize was a red herring to Snape's motives, but it wasn't. Rowling DIDN'T throw the twist in so it was as shocking a red herring as anything. I mean Harry had been a complete dunb ass through the first five books so the idea that he was right about Malfoy and Snape (although I'm sure we all suspected he was right about Malfoy) was an even bigger shock than if Rowling hadn't written in chapter two that Snape might be a traitor.

Speaking of shocks Dumbledore's murder was the biggest in the book. I kept thinking "This is wrong, Dumbledore's only pretending to be gone this is all just a plan of his and Snape's" and then we saw his body. Then his portrait was on the wall. Then Fawkes left. Then they had his funeral. He's not coming back and I have to admit I felt his death more than Sirius's as Dumbledore has been in the books since the beginning and we really only knew Sirius for three (two if you factor in we spent most of book three believing him a murderer).

And anyone know exactly what the deluxe edition of the book included? I only heard about it from this thread and I hate to think I missed a hundred pages of the story. This was unlike any other book in the series in it's surprises, muted tones, and revelations. I'm still processing it. It doesn't help that we have awesome Teen Titans and Justice League Unlimited episodes tonight. My poor fanboy head is spinning in three directions at once.

My best friend Mike and I had a lot of fun discussing the book while and after reading it. The Dumbledore/Snape/Harry/Voldemort relationship is a small part of the subject matter that we speculated on and attempted to deduce. 'Course its all speculation (that's where the fun in the HP series lies :-P), and its impossible to tell anything for sure until the seventh book to come out, but there are a few things about the death of Dumbledore by Snape to take into consideration.

Its important to note that Dumbledore seemed to be trying to wrap things up and take care of his affairs, particularly with regards to Harry and Voldemort. Dumbledore undertook a substantial amount of effort to include Harry in on the information and action, and kind of develop his independence. Not only has Dumbledore passed on the content of the prophecy and the circumstances surrounding it, but close to the entirety of his understanding of Voldemort and even allowed Harry in the process of filling in the missing pieces. Unlike my friend Mike, I don't necessarily think that Dumbledore had a "death wish," but that he saw most of his duty fulfilled and saw the circumstances around his death fast approaching. By the end of the book, Dumbledore clearly regarded Harry's well being to be more important than its own, and its entirely possible that Dumbledore valued Harry's independence and Snape's position as a trusted ally of Voldy more important than his own life.

Its also important to realize that the relationship between Harry and Snape is largely based upon prejudice. That's not to say that Snape isn't a real piece of work (because he is), but Harry has often treated Snape with just as prejudiced and unfair of an attitude as Snape has to Harry all the way from the first book. With regards to the recurring themes of prejudice and redemption, these themes that are inherent to the books could very well end up applying to both Malfoy and Snape.

All of that lays the groundwork, but I think it all really boils down to the Unbreakable Vow and scene with Narcissa Malfoy and Bellatrix Lestrange near the begginning of the book. Even with Snape's "explanation" of everything to Bella and Cissy (which admittedly, if Snape really were a traitor, is entirely plausible), there are a lot of details and plot points from previous books that still don't jive. For example, near the end of the Order of the Phoenix book there is a scene where Harry is trying to convey to Snape just exactly what the hell is going on. They then rush off to the Department of Mysteries. Because of Snape's initiative and correct interpretation of events, the Order was able to save the kids and keep the prophecy from Voldemort's hands. That's something that Voldemort and the Death Eaters don't know about, and were Snape traitorous scum I can't see him having done that because there'd be no clear incentive for him to do so. Offhand, speaking of prophecies, I liked what the book had to say regarding self-fulfilling prophecies and fate, etc.

Snape making the unbreakable vow to retain his credibility and also protect Malfoy was a calculated risk to retain his credibility and position, and it ended up biting them all in the ass. Snape most likely told Dumbledore of what transpired as soon as it happened (which is part of why Dumbledore was thoroughly unsurprised when Harry told him what he did), and Dumbledore knew then that it could very possibly go down like how it did... it seemed pretty clear that he anticipated something like that, and its probably what Hagrid overheard Dumbledore and Snape arguing about. Snape probably wouldn't want to kill Dumbledore, but Dumbledore likely insited that Snape do what was neccessary when the time came. Keep in mind that he wanted Harry to fetch *Snape* very soon after their Horcrux adventure. The stalling Malfoy was probably because he'd rather have Snape kill him than have Malfoy become a murderer.

In that final scene before Dumbledore's death, there are at least three possibilities of what Dumbledore was trying to convey to Snape: Albus could have really been begging for Snape to spare his life, acting for the benefit of the Death Eaters, or begging for Severus to kill him like what they had agreed on beforehand. While JK certainly fleshed Dumbledore's character out and humanized him quite a bit in this book, I highly doubt that the first possibility is true and that Dumbledore woul grovel for his life like that, especially since to him "to the organized mind, death is but yet the next great adventure." In the same light, its also important to consider that Dumbledore could have easily released Harry from the petrification and had himself saved, but left Harry petrified to watch events unfold.

There is also the final scene to consider. Sure, Snape did say that the Death Eaters should leave Harry for Voldemort to contend with, but there were still a few things funny about that scene aside from Snape "saving" Harry. Given the way that Snape was owning Harry, the Death Eaters could have arguably taken Harry with them back to Voldemort. Also, up until the point that Harry calls Snape a coward, Snape was *still* offering Harry very useful pieces of advice in terms of non-verbal spell use despite the circumstances, which alone clinches the deal in my opinion.

So given the assumption that Snape must kill Dumbledore to fulfill the Unbreakable Vow, and that Dumbledore considers Snape's position as one of Voldemort's essential assistants to be of utmost importance, it all fits together very well: Snape makes the Unbreakable Vow, Dumbledore wraps up everything that he needs to do with Harry and gives him the knowledge that he needs, enforces to Snape that killing him is important (resulting in the argument that Hagrid overheard), Dumbledore getting Harry to fetch Snape as soon as they get back, Dumbledore not letting Harry save him but allowing him to witness the events under the Invisibility Cloak, pleading with Snape to have the courage to kill him, and then what transpires in the final scene.

Its true that Snape loathes Harry with every fiber of his being, but also appreciates the neccessity of his existance. Ironically, Snape could end up being very much like Sirius, where doing what seems like the right thing damns him to percieved guilt by everybody else. I'm almost certain that there's more to a very nuanced character like Snape than meets the eye -- Dumbledore had his reasons for trusting snape, and I'm *very* interested to see how that pans out.

[Wounded_Dragon]

That theory only works if you suppose Snape is a good person. I find it far more likely that he isn't, especially since his school books contain dark magic spells in them, that he wrote in them. Spells that can kill.

There was no proper development of Ginny and Harry/Ginny. Just "I saw her over the summer, I miss her not in my year" and throw in some jealousy.

Hermione whines at Harry for cheating but does it so Ron can play Quidditch? What the heck is going on here?

[BeastBoyWonder]

That theory only works if you suppose Snape is a good person. I find it far more likely that he isn't, especially since his school books contain dark magic spells in them, that he wrote in them. Spells that can kill.

There was no proper development of Ginny and Harry/Ginny. Just "I saw her over the summer, I miss her not in my year" and throw in some jealousy.

Hermione whines at Harry for cheating but does it so Ron can play Quidditch? What the heck is going on here?

If the theory "only works if Snape is a good person," explain how and why Snape kept Voldemort and the Death Eaters from the prophecy in the last book as well as saved the kids, why Dumbledore asked Harry to fetch Snape immediately upon their return, why Dumbledore would be groveling for his life given his attitudes about death, and why Snape was still giving Harry good advice disguised as insults as he always has throughout the series. Also, its entirely possible that people have once practiced the "Dark Arts" and not stay evil or redeem themselves. Having once done Dark Magic isn't enough to conclusively call Snape evil.

[the Amanda]

Having read some interesting theories as to how Snape might still be good, I feel somewhat better about this book. At least Snape is still an interesting character. Go Snape!


Still wasn't worth 400 pages worth of bad shippy fanfic. Luna was a hoot, though.

[Wounded_Dragon]

If the theory "only works if Snape is a good person," explain how and why Snape kept Voldemort and the Death Eaters from the prophecy in the last book as well as saved the kids
Snape mentions early in the book that he's spying on Dumbledore for Voldemort. Snape did NOT keep the prophecy from Voldemort, that was everyone else.


why Dumbledore asked Harry to fetch Snape immediately upon their return, why Dumbledore would be groveling for his life given his attitudes about deathDumbledore was pleading because he didn't want to be wrong about Severus. That has no bearing on whether Snape wasn't evil.


why Snape was still giving Harry good advice disguised as insults as he always has throughout the series. That's opinion and you know it. Snape has never deliberately helped Harry of his own accord ever.

EDIT: The broom bit from book 1...keep in mind that Severus owes the Potters a debt.

Also, its entirely possible that people have once practiced the "Dark Arts" and not stay evil or redeem themselves. Having once done Dark Magic isn't enough to conclusively call Snape evil.I think casting AK on Dumbledore *is.*

It's LONG past time for the reason Dumbledore trusted Snape so much to come out, but the crap Dumbledore fed us doesn't meet muster.

[BeastBoyWonder]

Snape mentions early in the book that he's spying on Dumbledore for Voldemort. Snape did NOT keep the prophecy from Voldemort, that was everyone else.

Yes, he says that he's spying on Dumbledore for Voldemort to Death Eaters. That in itself provides sufficient motivation for what he said. Regarding keeping the prophecy for Voldemort: In the original post, I referenced the scene where Harry tries to convey to Snape about what he thinks is going on with regards to Voldemort torchering Sirius in the Department of Mysteries. Snape correctly interpreted what was going on and relayed that information over to the Order of the Phoenix that Harry was headed over to the Department of Mysteries. It was the Order members that saved the kids and the prophecy. Had Snape been on the Death Eaters' side, it would have been of utmost importance to ensure that the prophecy got in Voldemort's hands. Instead, he completely foiled their efforts. Why would Snape have done that if his loyalties did not truly lie with Dumbledore?


Dumbledore was pleading because he didn't want to be wrong about Severus. That has no bearing on whether Snape wasn't evil.

Still, were he pleading with Severus like that it ultimately came down to whether Dumbledore lost his life over it or not. Dumbledore quite clearly took care of his affairs with Harry, and quite clearly valued Harry's life much more than his own. Given his attitude toward death, I just can't see him pleading along those lines.


That's opinion and you know it. Snape has never deliberately helped Harry of his own accord ever.

EDIT: The broom bit from book 1...keep in mind that Severus owes the Potters a debt.

Snape has always loathed Harry, but helped him and given him good advice, for example with regards to shielding his feelings, saving harry on the broomstick as you mentioned, the scenes from book five i talked about before, trying to teach Harry to use nonverbal spells, etc. If Snape were truly evil I doubt he'd have much concience about the "debt" he owes to the Potters.

EDIT: To add to the list, I just remembered, Snape also could have easily not tried to save Harry from the percieved threat of Sirius and Lupin in the third book, as well as try to back Harry up by showing his Dark Mark to Fudge in the fourth.

I think casting AK on Dumbledore *is.*

It's LONG past time for the reason Dumbledore trusted Snape so much to come out, but the crap Dumbledore fed us doesn't meet muster.

Casting Avada Kedavra doesn't neccessarily make someone evil, to our knowledge. Having the Dark Arts background, Snape clearly understands how to cast it. However, unlike the Cruciatus Curse, we don't know for certain what the prerequisites of casting Avada Kedavra actually are.

Dumbledore isn't an idiot, and he must have trusted Snape for a very good reason. Much like Harry, when it comes down to it Snape is Dumbledore's man and has proven himself to be unquestioningly loyal. The more I think about it, the more I realize that Dumbledore and Snape envisioned something like this coming as soon as Snape had to make the Unbreakable vow. Dumbledore trusted Snape enough to do what needed to be done and perform what I consider to be the ultimate sacrifice, and Snape has given up everything for that.

In any case, I think there's a good amount of evidence for both sides, and I think the way JK has structured this part of the plot (particularly the ambiguity) is downright brilliant. I can't wait to see how it plays out.

[Karl Olson]

Having once done Dark Magic isn't enough to conclusively call Snape evil.

Especially since Harry, albeit unintensionally intially, does use Dark Magic in this book. However, the fact that he takes a stab at a couple Dark Spells in the attempt to take down Snape means that it's also he's willing to take on that burden on directly if he thinks he can serve justice by it (which would be oddly Snape-like if Snape's really on the side of good.) In fact, it's probably a good thing Hermione and Ron insist upon coming with him - they should help keep him stable and honest as long as they don't die. I mean, I could totally see the pyrrhic victory angle out of JK (losing the friends, resorting to the same dark magic to off him, becoming what he hates, etc,) but I could also see the triumphant victory (friends lives, power of love, etc) just as easily. She set it up very well, and really, that what this volume, and really all the volumes up until now have been: set up. Various little bits scattered across over 2,500+ pages leading up to grand finale.

And yeah, I'd definitely run with Snape being another twist and element, and that Snape is still on the side of good. In fact, it's probably good that some people are firmly convinced like Harry and the rest of the Wizarding world in that book that Snape has gone dark. It means that he secretly inform the minstry of various dark happenings without cumberance. He can play deep throat. This is great for J.K., because yet again she'll be able to sucker punch the readers who are taking Harry's view on Snape as law, and in general, it means that JK's writing is as good as ever, if not better. The fact that we are 6 volumes in and we still can't honestly pin him is awesome. It's really sharp, and it's great writing. Any good double agent would not make his intensions known this early in the game, if Snape isn't evil, then he's still smart enough to know when you've got to make a sacrifice play. I could easily believe the row with Dumbledore was about issues with killing him.

An interesting note is how much this volume does feel rooted in modern events. Definitely some eerie overtones, and maybe even some outright commentary (the false imprisonment angle being particularly direct, as was filch's searching of students.) Frankly, it's somewhat Tolkien-esque, which is a good thing. I've got a feeling it may not come up as much in the next book, so this was probably the only time to get those feelings in there as well.

[RayChuang]

After just finishing this book (which I thought was excellent--her best work since Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban), I may want to propose this controversial commentary:

What if Professor Dumbledore deliberately set up his own passing? :eek:

Crazy idea? Not as wild as you think if you read the book carefully, because you note that Dumbledore was already quite weak physically when we see him for the first time. That tells me (in my humble opinion!) he may be dying; it's probably the reason why Dumbledore is imparting as much of his knowledge of Lord Voldemort to Harry Potter personally as fast as possible so Harry Potter can better directly confront Voldemort. Is it possible that Professor Snape unwittingly killed Dumbledore to fulfill Dumbledore's master plan, an act that will set the stage for Voldemort's final fall? :confused:

[BeastBoyWonder]

After just finishing this book (which I thought was excellent--her best work since Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban), I may want to propose this controversial commentary:

What if Professor Dumbledore deliberately set up his own passing? :eek:

Crazy idea? Not as wild as you think if you read the book carefully, because you note that Dumbledore was already quite weak physically when we see him for the first time. That tells me (in my humble opinion!) he may be dying; it's probably the reason why Dumbledore is imparting as much of his knowledge of Lord Voldemort to Harry Potter personally as fast as possible so Harry Potter can better directly confront Voldemort. Is it possible that Professor Snape unwittingly killed Dumbledore to fulfill Dumbledore's master plan, an act that will set the stage for Voldemort's final fall? :confused:


LOL, that's exactly what I was saying.

[Wounded_Dragon]

Yes, he says that he's spying on Dumbledore for Voldemort to Death Eaters. That in itself provides sufficient motivation for what he said. Regarding keeping the prophecy for Voldemort.AGAIN, you're assuming he's lying to the Death Eaters, because you want him to be good. Big hole there. I'm not going to bother justifying why Snape's actions pre-HBP are for Voldemort because Snape SAID they were for Voldemort. Until proven otherwise, I go with what's been shown. And Snape has never been shown to be a nice guy. Ever.

Still, were he pleading with Severus like that it ultimately came down to whether Dumbledore lost his life over it or not. Dumbledore quite clearly took care of his affairs with Harry, and quite clearly valued Harry's life much more than his own. Given his attitude toward death, I just can't see him pleading along those lines..Oh please. There's a difference between not being afraid of death and being suicidal. Dumbledore is the former but you're saying he is of the latter.

As for taking care of his affairs, that's not much of a surprise, given how tense the atmosphere in the WW. It seemed like anyone could die (at least until we got to the shipping crap.) At that point, I imagine Dumbledore was trying to keep his affairs in order at all times.

Snape has always loathed Harry, but helped him and given him good advice, for example with regards to shielding his feelings, saving harry on the broomstick as you mentioned, the scenes from book five i talked about before, trying to teach Harry to use nonverbal spells, etc. If Snape were truly evil I doubt he'd have much concience about the "debt" he owes to the Potters..The debt may or may not be be a matter of consciene. Look at the Unbreakable Vow.

He has never given him good advice that he couldn't have gotten from anyone else.


Casting Avada Kedavra doesn't neccessarily make someone evil, to our knowledge. Having the Dark Arts background, Snape clearly understands how to cast it. However, unlike the Cruciatus Curse, we don't know for certain what the prerequisites of casting Avada Kedavra actually are..
You missed the point. Casting the AK to KILLLLLLL is an evil act.


Dumbledore isn't an idiot, and he must have trusted Snape for a very good reason. Much like Harry, when it comes down to it Snape is Dumbledore's man and has proven himself to be unquestioningly loyal. .Dumbledore's made mistakes before. And KILLING Dumbledore isn't exactly the best sign of loyalty.


The more I think about it, the more I realize that Dumbledore and Snape envisioned something like this coming as soon as Snape had to make the Unbreakable vow. Dumbledore trusted Snape enough to do what needed to be done and perform what I consider to be the ultimate sacrifice, and Snape has given up everything for that..Again, you have to make a HUGE leap for that.

In any case, I think there's a good amount of evidence for both sides, and I think the way JK has structured this part of the plot (particularly the ambiguity) is downright brilliant. I can't wait to see how it plays out.The evidence for Snape being a cold-hearted "illegitimate son" is all over the place. How he treats everyone else is indicative of it. You have to look at Snape with the rosiest of glasses to believe this theory of Snape being good.

Too bad Dumbledore is just the kind of optimist that would.

[BeastBoyWonder]

AGAIN, you're assuming he's lying to the Death Eaters, because you want him to be good. Big hole there. I'm not going to bother justifying why Snape's actions pre-HBP are for Voldemort because Snape SAID they were for Voldemort. Until proven otherwise, I go with what's been shown. And Snape has never been shown to be a nice guy. Ever.

I wasn't citing that as an example of him conclusively lying to the Death Eaters -- that example was merely to show that you can't neccessarily take what he said to Bella and Cissy at face value because there are other very plausible motivations for his saying that, each one as equally valid as the next. As I've shown previously, he SAID that his actions were for Voldemort but there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. I never said that Snape being a "nice guy" had anything to do with it, he's a bastard and clearly prejudiced against Harry, but that's different than understanding the neccessity of Harry's existance and being loyal to Dumbledore. I believe that the books have shown enough evidence that Snape does value Harry's existance and loyalty to Dumbledore. Right now this entire argument is based upon the assumption that Snape is blanketly "evil" and pointing out the logical fallacies of that. You have yet to show the logical fallacies in the theory that Snape could possibly have more noble intentions without making the assumption that he doesn't first.

Oh please. There's a difference between not being afraid of death and being suicidal. Dumbledore is the former but you're saying he is of the latter.

As for taking care of his affairs, that's not much of a surprise, given how tense the atmosphere in the WW. It seemed like anyone could die (at least until we got to the shipping crap.) At that point, I imagine Dumbledore was trying to keep his affairs in order at all times.

I wasn't calling him suicidal -- I was merely explaining that given Dumbledore's attitudes toward death he wouldn't be pleading because of a consequence that resulted in his death. Under the assumption that Snape is evil, you are correct in that Dumbledore's pleading to Snape could be construed as begging for Snape to reconsider, but under different assumptions its just as plausible that Dumbledore was reinforcing and legitimizing what he'd already asked Snape to do. Admittedly, his pleading in itself isn't indicative of anything, although its highly doubtful that he was merely pleading for his life.

As far as taking care of his affairs, the general tone of the book and the way Dumbledore continously reinforced the importance of Harry's life over his own is indicative that he was expecting death coming.

You missed the point. Casting the AK to KILLLLLLL is an evil act.

I'll refer you to Karl Olsen's post. Does using the Cruciatus Curse make Harry evil? What is the justification for casting AK to be evil?

Dumbledore's made mistakes before. And KILLING Dumbledore isn't exactly the best sign of loyalty.

Killing Dumbledore is a sign of loyalty if it is what Dumbledore and Snape are planning from the start, and what Dumbledore wants.


Again, you have to make a HUGE leap for that.

This is purely conjecture, based upon a different set of assumptions than yours. That part was not meant as a rebuttal to your post.

The evidence for Snape being a cold-hearted "illegitimate son" is all over the place. How he treats everyone else is indicative of it. You have to look at Snape with the rosiest of glasses to believe this theory of Snape being good.

Once again, there is a difference between behaving in a boorish, prejudiced, ignorant, and uninformed manner and being outright "evil." You already feel that Snape is evil, and use that to substantiate all your arguments against why Snape could possibly good (because he has to be evil because he's a meanie), whereas there are clear problems with the notion that Snape is blanketly evil in general that are not already related to underlying assumptions that he's good.

Too bad Dumbledore is just the kind of optimist that would.

It is true that Dumbledore makes mistakes, but he's not gullible by any means (just look at his treatment of Tom Riddle once he gets to Hogwarts). Dumbledore does but trust and show faith in people, but its not blind... if he regarded people like Tom Riddle and Lucius Malfoy with the suspicion that he did, he would certainly not just accept Snape like that. Even for people that he [I] does trust, such as Harry and other members of the Order of the Pheonix, he witholds quite a bit of information from. Case in point: Harry is the only individual that Dumbledore passed all of his information onto regarding the prophecy and an entire understanding of Voldemort's being. That's not the kind of stuff that he's told Snape, and in that sense I don't find him gullible. Both Snape and Dumbledore are much more nuanced and complicated characters than what you're making them out to be.

[Wounded_Dragon]

Apparently murder is no longer evil...I think that ends my participation in this discussion.

[AF$]

Dumbledore's made mistakes before. And KILLING Dumbledore isn't exactly the best sign of loyalty.

I disagree. It's entirely possible that after he made the Unbreakable Vow, he went to Dumbledore and they went over their options. Dumbledore realizes he is dying and knows that they need a presence on the Death Eater side to know what is up. Sacrificing himself to Snape/Malfoy lets him keep his spy (and erases the loyalty issues that some Death Eaters had, I would imagine). There are a million different scenarios for both sides that could be used to explain whether Snape is good or evil.


The evidence for Snape being a cold-hearted "illegitimate son" is all over the place. How he treats everyone else is indicative of it.

This is true, which is precisely why so many people think Snape is still good. JKR never seems to tip her hand THAT much when concerning future plot twists. It really wouldn't surprise me at all to see Snape redeem himself somehow in some character-defining moment in the last book.

Also, any guess on who RAB is? If it is someone they have already mentioned in the books, my guess who be for Regulus Black. He's the only person I can think of with first and third initials of R and B.

[BeastBoyWonder]

Apparently murder is no longer evil...I think that ends my participation in this discussion.

There's no need to get emotional about it or take it personally. Seeing as I'm a pacifist and I'm against killing of an unwilling subject in any form, I would agree with your revulsion to murder. However, once again, calling it "murder" reveals a preconcieved notion of it being unwilling to begin with. The alternate explanation of why it occurred explains that Dumbledore, in fact, did want to die at that particular moment by Snape's hand. His pleading to Snape could be construed as another confirmation of that fact.

[Wounded_Dragon]

There's no need to get emotional about it or take it personally. Seeing as I'm a pacifist and I'm against killing of an unwilling subject in any form, I would agree with your revulsion to murder. However, once again, calling it "murder" reveals a preconcieved notion of it being unwilling to begin with. The alternate explanation of why it occurred explains that Dumbledore, in fact, did want to die at that particular moment by Snape's hand. His pleading to Snape could be construed as another confirmation of that fact.
Here's the flaw in that thinking...you admit Dumbledore's suicidal. But if he's as intelligent as setting all this up that you theorized, he should know Harry needs a lot more help than what he's been given so far. His "training" in this book consisted of basically home movies...One night of conversations and viewings should've been enough, but Dumbledore dragged it out, leaving Harry quite unprepared for the task that faces him now. Harry couldn't even deal with Malfoy, Snape swatted him like a fly at the end...Harry is woefully underprepared and again, it's thanks to Dumbledore's regimen.

How is this setting up Harry to succeeed? Looks more like throwing to the wolves to me. Maybe even murder (placing a minor in a dangerous situation that he cannot reasonably be expected to escape from)

As for Snape: I'm working towards getting my teaching license and Snape has always been the antithesis of everything I've been taught. If there's something Snape does, do the opposite and that's what a real teacher does. At least until the college level/upper-mid high school levels and in Harry Potter, perhaps the 6th and 7th year books. Snape's been doing that to 11 year olds.

He's the Anti-Me. Kinda hard to not be emotional about that.

I usually want Snape to be good in Fanon, actually, precisely because I loathe Canon!Snape because of this.

[BeastBoyWonder]

Here's the flaw in that thinking...you admit Dumbledore's suicidal. But if he's as intelligent as setting all this up that you theorized, he should know Harry needs a lot more help than what he's been given so far. His "training" in this book consisted of basically home movies...One night of conversations and viewings should've been enough, but Dumbledore dragged it out, leaving Harry quite unprepared for the task that faces him now. Harry couldn't even deal with Malfoy, Snape swatted him like a fly at the end...Harry is woefully underprepared and again, it's thanks to Dumbledore's regimen.

How is this setting up Harry to succeeed? Looks more like throwing to the wolves to me. Maybe even murder (placing a minor in a dangerous situation that he cannot reasonably be expected to escape from)

As for Snape: I'm working towards getting my teaching license and Snape has always been the antithesis of everything I've been taught. If there's something Snape does, do the opposite and that's what a real teacher does. At least until the college level/upper-mid high school levels and in Harry Potter, perhaps the 6th and 7th year books. Snape's been doing that to 11 year olds.

He's the Anti-Me. Kinda hard to not be emotional about that.

I usually want Snape to be good in Fanon, actually, precisely because I loathe Canon!Snape because of this.

Your revulsion to Snape is totally understandable. He's a revolting person and a terrible teacher, and its absolutely inexcusable that any teacher would treat children in such a fashion. He's a very nasty and prejudiced person to many of his students, but *especially* from Harry's point of view. Harry doesn't exactly give him the benefit of the doubt though, ever, which is why after everything its inconcievable to him that Snape might not be "evil." There's a *huge* difference between being ignorant and nasty in the way you treat people and having completely evil intentions... Snape's proven himself to be a more complex character than that, and although he hates Harry, has understood his neccessity and saved him on countless occassions.

As far as Dumbledore's death, here's kind of how it goes down: Its not that Dumbledore is "suicidal" and doesn't want to live, but that Snape had no choice but to agree with the Unbreakable Vow to maintain his cover. When discussing it with Dumbledore (and this is where it falls into a bit of conjecture), they likely come into a disagreement about whether Snape should break the Unbreakable Vow (assuming the consequence is death or something like that), or Dumbledore dies. Snape would rather sacrifice himself, but Dumbledore is insistent upon taking the fall. This is likely for a couple reasons: Maintaining Snape's position at Voldemort's side is really important, and because Snape's "defeat" means that Malfoy would die too. Judging from the scene between Dumbledore and Malfoy, Dumbledore clearly regards Malfoy as an innocent thrown into circumstances far beyond his capability, and he doesn't want Malfoy to become a killer. This is why Dumbledore stalls Malfoy, so that Snape can kill him in place of Malfoy and fulfill the Unbreakable Vow. This is why Dumbledore chooses to die by Snape's hand -- its the product of their "worst case scenario" analysis.

As far as Harry's training is concerned like what you mention, if Dumbledore knew that he might go at any point it is not the training of Harry's skills that's important, but rather what he needs to know that is. Harry's skills are going to continue to develop, and that's something that he can do on his own. On the other hand, Dumbledore can do a few things for Harry that would be much more difficult for him on his own: Dumbledore gives Harry the essential background information that he needs to take down Voldemort, and he also involves Harry in the process, allowing him to become more indpendent and free from dependency on Dumbledore. The other stuff Harry will grow into and can take care of on his own, and given everything that Harry's done and mastered so far, Dumbledore knows that.

Its also interesting to note JK's word choice when describing Snape's reaction before killing Dumbledore. He could have been unsettled about what he had to do to Dumbledore much in the same way that Harry was unsettled about giving Dumbledore the drink.

EDIT: I just reread the last bit of the story again for the first time, and there were a couple things that struck me: I'd mentioned earlier that Snape could have probably taken Harry back with him to Voldemort. Upon re-reading it, Snape saved Harry from the Cruciatus Curse of another Death Eater and had Harry at his complete mercy... Buckbeak did come to save him after seeing Harry attacked, but there was quite a span of time where Snape and completely and utterly mastered Harry, and the Death Eaters could have brought him back. Also, Snape wasn't even close to brutal enough for having been revealed as a Death Eater... he could have killed Hermione (whom he told to tend to Flitwick, instead) and dozens of others, but he just let them all go.

[RayChuang]

Steel, I'll make some comments in spoiler mode:

1. I think we need to be ducking a lot of brickbats over what we BOTH think about Dumbledore's passing. :sweat: As I said earlier, note the fact Dumbledore is far more physically frail in Half-Blood Prince than in previous books; he is definitely very close to the end of his life and wants to do as much as possible to get Harry Potter to be ready to finally confront Voldemort. If Dumbledore was in far better physical condition I don't think he would be revealing so many secrets about Voldemort's past to Potter until later.

2. I am pretty impressed at how Rowling filled in the backstory about the past of Voldemort's family line. That tells me by the time when his mother was alive that the wizarding world has effectively shunned the descendants of Salazar Slytherin.

3. Note that in Books 4 through 6 that Rowling has a somewhat dim view of newspapers in the wizarding world. Note Rita Skeeter's scandalmongering, Luna Lovegood's embarassment of her father's newspaper, and everyone putting down The Daily Prophet as mostly inaccurate.

4. Have you noticed that in this novel a lot of the British lingo that was excised in the past American editions are gone? The current US-edition novel has pretty much kept most of it intact.

5. If you carefully read between the lines, why do I think that Potter is an unintentional horcrux of Voldemort? That explains why Potter has the head scar and why the Sorting Hat nearly put Potter in the Slytherin house.

[Agent S7]

This book can be summed up in three words: It's Magically Delicious.
:eek: :)

[Lachesis]

So given the assumption that Snape must kill Dumbledore to fulfill the Unbreakable Vow, and that Dumbledore considers Snape's position as one of Voldemort's essential assistants to be of utmost importance, it all fits together very well: Snape makes the Unbreakable Vow, Dumbledore wraps up everything that he needs to do with Harry and gives him the knowledge that he needs, enforces to Snape that killing him is important (resulting in the argument that Hagrid overheard), Dumbledore getting Harry to fetch Snape as soon as they get back, Dumbledore not letting Harry save him but allowing him to witness the events under the Invisibility Cloak, pleading with Snape to have the courage to kill him, and then what transpires in the final scene.

Its true that Snape loathes Harry with every fiber of his being, but also appreciates the neccessity of his existance. Ironically, Snape could end up being very much like Sirius, where doing what seems like the right thing damns him to percieved guilt by everybody else. I'm almost certain that there's more to a very nuanced character like Snape than meets the eye -- Dumbledore had his reasons for trusting snape, and I'm *very* interested to see how that pans out.


Thanks for that. This is *exactly* how I see things. Rowling has really harped on Harry's prejudices against Snape coloring his actions, and now he's got the rest of the staff and his friends thinking along the same lines. It's too pat, and obviously setting us up for Harry *finally* getting past all the bad blood (pardon the pun). He's already started empathizing with Draco.

[Wounded_Dragon]

If that's what you consider what Harry needs to know to win, then I consider Dumbledore an accomplice to attempted murder, along with Snape. Skills improve my arse.

Sometimes an evil guy is just that: an evil guy. It's not like the rest of the book was handled with subtlety and grace.

[Matsuo]

I have to say. Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince was such a snog-fest. But that's partly why I enjoyed it so much. I really, really think Rowling did a great job at "upping" the book's maturity. And yes, I love the Harry/Ginny match up. It makes me happy to no end.

But I think the 2nd chapter, the one where Snape makes the Unbreakable Vow was a dead give away to the true Snape. Firstly, if you remember from Ron's explination of what the Vow does is that if it is not completed the one who makes the vow dies. Secondly, I'm placing mucho importance on Dumbledore repeatedly saying he trusts Snape, even though Snape killed him. But the final battle of the chapter confused me a bit with the exchange between Harry and Snape while the Death Eaters were tryign to retreat. This is the last evidence I have to suggest tells us what Snape's really up to. Even though Harry was coming at him with everything he had, Snape did not choose to kill him outright. My theory is, Dumbledore's death at the hands of Snape makes there no question in Voldemort's eyes that he is loyal. Now this could give Snape a chance to instill his own manipulation in Voldemort's plans from now on. In short, I think Snape's a good guy, and Dumbledore was an unfortunate death that had to be completed in order to further Voldemort's own demise.

The fake Horcrux made me cry. All that for nothing. But it's good to hear that at least the one who really has it is planning to destroy it. The initials R.A.B.? Wasn't Sirius' brother named Regelus? Or something like that. His name came first into my mind after he was mentioned once or twice in HBP. And the letter did state that he should be dead by the time the letter was read.

I bet the 7th book will be really, insanely dark as Harry looks for the Horcruxes alone. Then while he's doing this I could almost bet Rowling will switch to Ginny's/Ron's/Hermione's point of view at Hogwarts. I really, really think Ginny will play a massive role in the next book being Harry's love interest. I can't put enough emphasis on that.

[Hordesman]

Dumbledore's meetings with Harry were also to assess his state of preparation. I say he's on the right path, having been written as beginning to empathize with both Riddle and Malfoy in this book- and Snape in the previous one. And then there's Pettigrew who owes his life to Harry. In Star Wars, that's what ultimately ensured Luke's success. And where it all start? From a mentor who allowed himself to be struck down in the young man's presence.

And that might make Snape the soldier with the worst duty: to stand and fight against what he is truly loyal to in order to save it.

Ginny/Harry kinda threw me, but I liked how it was presented. If there is one thing I can't stand it's "Harry loved Ginny because she was beautiful, a great Quidditch player, etc." Love happens, it's not explained and sometimes it just comes out of the blue. And I feel JKR was pretty good about showing rather than telling- even if it was Harry's pov, just like anything else in these books. Where do you actually read the words "Mrs.
Weasley did not like her future daughter-in-law"? The conflict is entirely presented and resolved in Harry's pov. And Fleur's love and resolve are mirrored in Ginny's scene at the funeral. Ginny is Harry's match imo. And Lupin? Well, I'm glad he found someone new. Here's hoping for the Creevey brothers who showed up on page 300 with Harry fangirls.

[g_UnIt_GaNsTa]

Can anyone explain the last Harry Potter to me? I only got around 20 pages in and then lost the book and I want to buy this one without being lost.

[TuffyCatt]

After dwelling on the book for a while and reading some of these posts, I think I'm going to have to agree with everyone who feels that Snape is still possibly good. Immediately after finishing the book, I had decided that Snape had been evil all along, that he was a terrible, lying, betraying person, and that poor Dumbledore had been fooled at last. However, after thinking it over for a while, I just can't accept the fact that Dumbledore could be so easily deceived. I don't think there is absolutely anything that Dumbledore has made more clear throughout the course of the books than the fact that he totally trusts Snape. There must be a reason for that. I'm leaning toward the large amount of evidence that shows that Snape is still on the right side, that he and Dumbledore had discussed the fact that Snape may be forced to kill Dumbledore, and that Snape showed his loyalty to Dumbledore by carrying out the order. I'm not saying that I believe that Dumbledore was suicidal. I think that Dumbledore really wanted to stay around for as long as he was able, but the time had come where there really wasn't any other choice. In order for Snape to continue to seem loyal to the death eaters and for Voldemort to continue to have faith in Snape, Dumbledore had to die.

I also feel that something else important may come out of Dumbledore's death. The brief glimpse that Harry gets of a joyful Phoenix rising from Dumbledore's body at his funeral makes me wonder, although I haven't really come to any conclusion about what it might mean. If it is true that something good will come of Dumbledore's death, then I think the possibility that Snape is evil is also plausible. Even if Dumbledore knew that Snape was still working for the death eaters, he may have trusted Snape in the fact that he knew Snape would kill him in the end, which is what ultimately had to happen. I don't know if that makes any sense...oh well. I feel that this theory is a little shakier and has less going for it than the "Snape is still good" theory, but J.K. Rowling has surprised me many times in the past and I'm sure that she will continue to do so. However, whether Snape is good or evil, I will never believe that Dumbledore's trust in him was unfounded or that Dumbledore was deceived.

Anyway, that's what I think. As for the book as a whole I thought it was quite good and I overall really enjoyed it. I thought the book was a little rushed in some places and the relationships that developed in book sometimes felt a little weird, but nothing was too bad. I love pretty much every meeting between Harry and Dumbledore. I love the respect that Dumbledore has for Harry and how we got to know Dumbledore even better throughout this story. The fact that we are all being kept guessing at the end of this novel just goes to show what a good story teller Rowling is.

[bigddan11]

You know, with the entire Hogwart's being closed deal that occurred at the end of the book, I'm thinking Hogwarts is more likely the location of the final battle between Harry and Voldemort in the next book. I think Hogwarts will be included, but most of the action won't take place there. I basically see Book 7 occurring in 2 possible ways:

1) Harry, Ron, and Hermoine search out 3 of the remaining 4 horcruxes, and then they battle the final 2 at Hogwarts with Fawkes returning because of Harry's loyalty to Dumbledore. Along the way, they are forced to kill Death Eaters guarding each horcrux, and when they realize that RAB is Regelus they are forced to return to Grimwauld Place and confront the Order of the Phoenix members who insist on joining him for the rest of the battle.

The other possibility is this: 2) The members of the order have been locating the horcruxes and have taken them to Hogwarts setting a trap for Voldemort. Voldemort gathers all his forces and attacks Hogwarts with all his might, but he finds that the leader of the Order is now Harry leading to the final showdown.
No matter what you say though, Book 7 will be quiet interesting when it comes out. Snape's true character still needs to be revealed, and if Snape truly is on the side of the Order, then someone else in the Order must know that Dumbledore was going to be killed at the end of Book 6. My guess would be McGonagall, because Hagrid was to stunned to have that type of knowledge. I'm interested to know what the Ministry is going to do though in Book 7, because they've basically done nothing in Book 6. Could they be a hindrance to Harry? Will they join Voldemort? Will Harry be revealed as a descendant of Gryffindor? All answers will be revealed, hopefully in July 2007.

[Wounded_Dragon]

Dumbledore is not infallible. In fact, he's capable of huge mistakes. I thought OotP had cleared that up for everyone.

[Fone Bone]

Harry being a horcrux wouldn't make too much sense unless Rowling wants Voldemort to win and kill all of the characters which is a questionable decision in a children's book. One has to destroy the other and Harry can't actually kill Voldemort if a piece of him resides inside him.

After hearing Steel's arguments Snape's betrayel makes even LESS sense if that's possible. I personally think it can go either way although I would be beyond impressed with Rowling if she decides to make Snape good and Malfoy innocent as this conflicts with what the books have told us so far. As I said the message that blood doesn't matter rings false if both Malfoy and Snape are evil. I'm betting Rowling knows this and will make one or (hopefully) both good in the final book.

Good explainations Steel which give me hope for the final book (Snape was my favorite character before because he was complicated). The idea that Dumbledore knew he would die and was trying to get Snape to fulfill his mission is an interesting one. There WERE a lot of things about Snape's betrayel that didn't make a lick of sense and the fact that he killed the ultimate good guy in the book and is still so hard to peg is a good thing.

One problem: Though Harry has matured beyond recognition in this book without Dumbledore to explain these things, IF Snape is good HOW will this information be conveyed to Harry? The one problem with the theory is that Dumbledore SHOULD have told someone else if Snape and Dumbledore had planned this (preferably McGonagal or Lupin). Not telling ANYONE (and EVERYONE was shocked by these turn of events) was a huge mistake as if Snape was still working for the Order he would still need SOMEONE to keep in contact with. This is the only problem with the theory, but as far as I'm concerned is a huge one.

Edit: One last thing concerning people's issue with all of the "snogging" being handled without subtley and grace: That's what being a teenager is about. You don't always have a real reason why you are attracted to someone and vice versa. It was certainly handled better than most of primetime televsion's ships. Even Buffy and Angel seemed to only be each other's one true loves because the writer's tell us so, rather than any substantive reason.

[silverwings]

SNIPTook the words right out of my mouth. I entirely agree with the views on Snape.

I still think he's redeemable and that this was what had to happen.

I also felt very sorry for Malfoy. I really want him to become a good guy now. He's in need of a little redemption/revenge himself.

I was surprised to find Snape to be the HBP. The fact that he's head of Slyerian (sp) whose founder hated everyone who wasn't pureblood... I find that incrediably ironic.

I was also surprised at how little the HBP had to do with anything in this book. Yes, his book helped put some things in motion, but otherwise the title (for the first time) was incrediably misleading.

I want to know who R.A.B. is. I think this was the worse cliffhanger Rowling has given us yet.:D

[Fone Bone]

If that's what you consider what Harry needs to know to win, then I consider Dumbledore an accomplice to attempted murder, along with Snape. Skills improve my arse.Maybe. But's it's also possible that defeating Voldemort is more important than putting other people at risk.

Sometimes an evil guy is just that: an evil guy. It's not like the rest of the book was handled with subtlety and grace.Sometimes a cigar IS just a cigar. But considering how little I've been able to predict these books I'd say it's likely it could still go either way.

[enigmatic_one]

Hey all, I'm a long time lurker who's always enjoyed reading all the various debates and discussions on these forums and finally decided it was time to join up and leap into the throng myself.

That said, I'm especially intrigued by the debate just going on here concerning whether or not Snape was killing Dumbledore on his orders or not (upon finishing the book and meditating on it for a while I myself had begun to have similar lines of thought, eg Dumbledore begging Snape to kill him rather than what seemed to take place). While the discussion was most fascinating to read, I felt something had been overlooked by both parties. Dumbledore arrived on the astronemy tower extremely weakened by the potion he had drinken in Voldemort's cave, and the fact is that we do not know the extent of the fraility. It is entirely possible that the potion was poison and that regardless of how events played from then on that he would have died. Assuming this is the case, there are three possible options. One, that he could allow Malfoy to kill him, a feat that malfoy did not seem prepared to do, ultimately, and something I doubt Dumbledore would have wanted (although at this point it seems likely that Voldy will have Malfoy killed, I still have hopes for his repentence and redemption in the next book). Two, that Dumbledore could somehow save himself, defeat the deatheaters, only to die shortly after due to the poison, thus making his death pointless and consequencely killing Snape as well due to his unbreakable vow (remember, this is all assuming that Snape is indeed still loyal to Dumbledore). Or thirdly, that Dumbledore could allow Snape to instead kill him (a short time before he would die anyway), allieving any shadow of doubt from Voldemort that Snape was a traitor and firmly establishing him in a place of trust where he shall be able to assist Harry in the final battle, when it really counts. Some might say that this last option is discredible due to the fact that Snape didn't know Dumbledore was dying anyway, but I would remind you that both wizards in question are highly skilled in legilmens and so some telepathic conversation may have taken place prior to Snape's arrival on the tower.

All that said, although I beleive there is significient evidence that Snape is still good and due to JK's style of writing, that the subtleties are not there by accident, I do sincerely hope that I am wrong and that he is evil because regardless of his motives, after seeing him kill Dumbledore (figuratively seeing), I really do hate him and want to see him killed as a treacherous coward.

On an entirely different note, I too felt the moment R.A.F. was mentioned that it had to be Sirius' brother and furtherly beleive that he's actually still alive out there and will help Harry in the next book.

(PS. Absolutely loved the book, possibley the best one yet. Much easier to read than OotP.)

~Enigmatic One

[TuffyCatt]

Just to clear up a point made in my earlier post, I don't believe that Dumbledore was by any means perfect. I understand that he had the ability to make mistakes. However, the fact that his trust in Snape was something he believed in so strongly, and that his trust in Snape is something that he's been repeatedly defending since book 1, makes it almost impossible for me to believe that Dumbledore's trust was founded only Snape's repentence over the death of James and Lily. There has to be more to it. Dumbledore may have the tendency to be optimistic about people, but by no means is he gullible or easily manipulated. I may have been able to believe that Dumbledore made the ultimate mistake in trusting Snape if it weren't for the fact that that trust was something that Dumbledore believed more strongly in than almost any of the other opinions that he's expressed throughout the books. There must be some reason behind this, a reason that we still don't know. Anyway, that's why I still think, in this case, it's impossible that Dumbledore was truly deceived by Snape.

[Wounded_Dragon]

Maybe. But's it's also possible that defeating Voldemort is more important than putting other people at risk.
I'm not following this at all. Dumbledore took his sweet time finding out that they need to destroy holcruxes and never got around to teaching Harry things that might be needed to accomplish said task. And Harry didn't do too well in the task he underwent in this novel.

[Karl Olson]

Hmm... now that I think about it, Harry's right, there are a lot of similarities between Snape and Voldemort. However, that allows for another element to come into plyay: mirror characterization. Yeah, they were very similar in a lot of ways, however, one critical difference comes into play: Dumbledore trusted Snape, and he never trusted Voldemort. Sure, Occulumency comes into play, but the truth is that Dumbledore was the most powerful wizard outside of Voldemort, where as Snape is nothing in comparison, so Snape's not likely to bamboozle Dumbledore. This act had to have been something Snape and Dumbledore knew could happen, and that worst case scenario played out. Both likely knew it was best if Harry thought Snape was evil cause Harry is total crap at Occulumency (probably why Dumbledore made sure he was frozen to witness the events.) If they told him the truth, it was much too easy for that truth to be discovered (especially since Voldemort could look into his mind even easier because of the scar,) and then Snape's sacrifices, and in turn Dumbledore's death, would be for nothing. Snape is, in a sense, a better character than ever, and he's right when he says he's not a coward. The cowardly thing would have been to die for his noble cause - break the vow and die for Dumbledore. Living for the noble cause, to help save the wizarding world, no, the entire world, from a freakish madman bent on remaking civilization in his image, even though you may become a pariah, may end rotting in some god-awful prison for the rest of your life, may end up dead at the hands of the very people you were trying to protect, is brave because it's a lot harder than just playing the martyr.

[enigmatic_one]

Hmm... now that I think about it, Harry's right, there are a lot of similarities between Snape and Voldemort. However, that allows for another element to come into plyay: mirror characterization. Yeah, they were very similar in a lot of ways, however, one critical difference comes into play: Dumbledore trusted Snape, and he never trusted Voldemort. Sure, Occulumency comes into play, but the truth is that Dumbledore was the most powerful wizard outside of Voldemort, where as Snape is nothing in comparison, so Snape's not likely to bamboozle Dumbledore. This act had to have been something Snape and Dumbledore knew could happen, and that worst case scenario played out. Both likely knew it was best if Harry thought Snape was evil cause Harry is total crap at Occulumency (probably why Dumbledore made sure he was frozen to witness the events.) If they told him the truth, it was much too easy for that truth to be discovered (especially since Voldemort could look into his mind even easier because of the scar,) and then Snape's sacrifices, and in turn Dumbledore's death, would be for nothing. Snape is, in a sense, a better character than ever, and he's right when he says he's not a coward. The cowardly thing would have been to die for his noble cause - break the vow and die for Dumbledore. Living for the noble cause, to help save the wizarding world, no, the entire world, from a freakish madman bent on remaking civilization in his image, even though you may become a pariah, may end rotting in some god-awful prison for the rest of your life, may end up dead at the hands of the very people you were trying to protect, is brave because it's a lot harder than just playing the martyr.

Well said, well said. That's sort of what I was trying to get at towards the end of my post; Snape is too rich a a character for Jk to just toss off like that for the sake of a plot twist. One of the great things about Snape, especially in this book, is that we as the reader had the opportunity to hear what he told Dumbledore's side, and also to hear what he said to Voldemort's side, and yet even we could not know for sure who he was truly loyal to. I've head it theorized in the past that Voldemort has another agent infiltrating Hogwarts (the "most loyal member who's at Hogwarts" whom he speaks of after his ressurection in book four. Yes it seemed to be Crouch, but Crouch denied him in court! Plus it seems too great of a givaway to have it payoff so easily). If Voldemort does have another agent, then they too would have access to both of Snape's testimonies and would also be unsure. By having Harry not know about Snape and Dumbledore planning the death, he can now provide and absolutely real account and fully convince everybody, including any other spies, that he is "Voldemort's man".

~ Enigmatic One

[Drachentöter]

Ah! I think I just unwittingly spoiled the mystery death. >_< Teach me to randomly highlight short spoiler tags...

I still want to post thoughts as I go along though. I just finished chapter twenty-three after a reading from midnight to 2am and from 11:15 to 2:15...so that's about 6 hours and fifteen minutes that I've been reading total.

-It seems to me as if Rowling dumped Cho Chang (a wise choice) for Ginny as Harry's love interest (a lukewarm choice for me at best). Ginny never seemed like a properly fleshed out character to me and she's always been something of a chameleon that suits the environment. She was really shy when Rowling needed her to be shy and now she's extremely brash and visible because Rowling needs her to catch Harry's eye. I suppose such changes in teenagers aren't uncommon, but Harry's sudden change in attitude from one book to the next kind of cheapens the relationship. I would've liked to have seen some more hints in the last book if this is supposed to be the definitive love interest.

But still, better Ginny than Cho.

-I cannot believe Harry does not realize who the Half-Blood Prince is. This really angers me, because it's a poorly contrived mystery when all the clues point to Voldemort. Unless Rowling has a very well-thought-out explanation for someone other than Voldemort, I'm going to call foul and say that the characters aren't being true to themselves. Between Harry, Ron, and Hermonie (who feaking knew that Sirius Black sent Potter a Firebolt for no good reason), someone should've said "Hey, maybe it was Tom Riddle."

In fact...of course...I just realized.

The Advanced Potions Making book could be one of the Horcruxes. The one that Dumbledore thought was either a Ravenclaw or a Gryffindor heirloom. Possibly not, since the book isn't talking to Harry or anything and it'd be kind of tired to do a Tom Riddle book again but...

-And one more theory, I think the boy that Moaning Myrtle was referencing in the boys' bathroom was Malfoy, probably shaken with nerves because of the task he's performing (or failing to perform) for Voldemort or whoever.

All in all, I'm being pretty critical and it's not my favorite book of the series so far (Order of the Phoenix is my favorite, followed by Goblet of Fire, this could fall somewhere above, equal, or below PoA). For one thing, the excessive use of Dumbledore's office and the Pensive almost bore me, were it not for the fascinating information behind it. I wish Rowling would convey Voldemort's past in more original ways throughout the book, but again, I'm assuming the need to trim down length forced her to use the same technique over and over again and use Dumbledore as a narrative mouthpiece.

But it's still J.K. Rowling and it's still an absorbing story and I can't wait to finish it. Just a few notes on the possible spoilers I stupidly stumbled across:

If Snape actually betrays the Order, I will be very, very angry and disappointed because it will strip Snape of the many layers that made his character interesting in my eyes. I think he's more interesting as a triple, quadruple, quintuple agent than a simple double agent who's completely evil.

If Dumbledore is the one who dies, it would make sense to me. He's been holding Harry's hand throughout the series, so he would be the one who should be killed off before Harry makes his final confrontation. Gives the showdown a sense of urgency and significance, since Harry would be the last barrier between Voldemort and power. At any rate, it would be a much better death than Sirius' was last book, which is my least favorite aspect of Order of the Phoenix. Sirirus had a lot of potential as a character, but Dumbledore has just about been completely fleshed out. Honestly, Sirius' death has had little impact on Harry's story whatsoever in Book 6 so far.

[Fone Bone]

I had forgotten to take into account that Harry sucks at Occullamency. The entire theory fits. It can now go either way.

[IanC]

4. Have you noticed that in this novel a lot of the British lingo that was excised in the past American editions are gone? The current US-edition novel has pretty much kept most of it intact.
Wahay, the US publishers have seen sense.

[Karl Olson]

I had forgotten to take into account that Harry sucks at Occullamency. The entire theory fits. It can now go either way.

Exactly, which is excellent writing, cause it means you need to take in all those little bits from the past 2500 something pages. Though Potter would never rat out anyone if he swore not to, he sucks at hiding his feelings. As such, the only way Snape can keep his position as a double agent is for Harry to believe Snape's just plain evil. You convince people of that best when you kill their mentor. If Voldemort takes a stroll through Potter's mind to try to double check Snape's motive, all he'll find is seething, intense hatred.

Shoot, Snape may just have to die at Potter's hand by the time all is said and done because he'll either have to fess up and risk detection (unless Harry does work on his Occlumency, in which case, he could be trusted) or be killed or atleast captured and imprisoned by Potter (or another good wizard/witch) to ensure that no one ever works out his true purpose, because if the Death Eater caught wind of him being an active member of the Order, he'd be dead anyway. Better a quick death than a long, painful torture for information (because Snape is a skilled Occlumens and a sharp potions master and therefore the only way he'll give up knowledge is brutality; he can fend off any other means of information extraction,) and then a violent, painful death.

Basically, this book really only gets things started. The next book is were amazing stuff gets to go down, and it's where an amazing amount of possibility lies.

[atf487]

I've just read a ton of well formed arguments, and I totally agree that snape isnt't entirely evil. The only thing I have to add is that maybe Dumbledore was trying to get snape to give him a potion to make him feel better after taking the potion to get to the horcrux, but with Slughorn there it may not have been that idea.

When it's all said and done, though, book 7 is gonna be a total beast of a novel. Problem is, I don't know if Harry can pull it off. in OotP he was totally ruled by his emotions, and was making very rash decisions. He even destroyed Dumbledore's office, and despite his maturation in HBP I'm not sure if he's ready to go on his own. With the current stream of novels, I almost expect Harry to be killed off, unless he has the help of an entire army.

[peacebyanymeans]

Hey people! Read this: http://www.livejournal.com/users/garlandgraves/3409.html

It's really insightful to R.A.B, the Dumbledore/Snape Conflict, the locket/Mundungus theory and some quotes to support it.

[Kasumi]

She was really shy when Rowling needed her to be shy and now she's extremely brash and visible because Rowling needs her to catch Harry's eye.Actually, it has been stated that Ginny has always been brash. She was only shy because she had a crush on Harry. In OotP, she showed her true colors to Harry.


-I cannot believe Harry does not realize who the Half-Blood Prince is. This really angers me, because it's a poorly contrived mystery when all the clues point to Voldemort. Unless Rowling has a very well-thought-out explanation for someone other than Voldemort, I'm going to call foul and say that the characters aren't being true to themselves. Between Harry, Ron, and Hermonie (who feaking knew that Sirius Black sent Potter a Firebolt for no good reason), someone should've said "Hey, maybe it was Tom Riddle."Um it's not Voldemort. Rowling told us this a long ways back.

Anyway, I finished the book a few hours ago and I gotta say it's one of my favorites. It blows OotP out of the water. Actually all the other books blow OotP away but that's just me.

I whoop for the Harry/Ginny (could smell the whole 'break-up' thing a mile away), Ron/Hermione (Big whoop for them), and other things. Remus/Tonks was way tacked on though.

And I gotta agree with Snape not being evil. My friend called me a fool for it but he's blinded by his hate for Snape. And I was being pretty reasonable too.

[Steve Jester]

My feeling is that I wouldn't go as far as to blatantly call Snape evil yet. There are quite a few things that still don't make sense about it. Like the fact that Dumbledor could be asking to be killed be Snape? I was right about my predection of Dumbledor's death, but that is NOT how I expected it.

In any event, took me 12 - 13+ hours (I am very through...) and I must say this is Jo's best work so far. Many characters came full circle. I am now waiting for Book 7.

And on another topic, I wanted to kill Jo when Ron and Lavender got together. But Jo redemed herself with Harry and Ginny (although it was short lived.)

[Phantasm]

YES!!!!!!

Its EXCATLY! What I was hoping for ever since book 1!!!
Harry and Ginny!
Ron and Hermione!!!!!

*does a happy dance*

"Been kissing Pigwidgeon, have you?"
I love Ginny!

LOL!:D

[Fone Bone]

Exactly, which is excellent writing, cause it means you need to take in all those little bits from the past 2500 something pages. Though Potter would never rat out anyone if he swore not to, he sucks at hiding his feelings. As such, the only way Snape can keep his position as a double agent is for Harry to believe Snape's just plain evil. You convince people of that best when you kill their mentor. If Voldemort takes a stroll through Potter's mind to try to double check Snape's motive, all he'll find is seething, intense hatred.

Shoot, Snape may just have to die at Potter's hand by the time all is said and done because he'll either have to fess up and risk detection (unless Harry does work on his Occlumency, in which case, he could be trusted) or be killed or atleast captured and imprisoned by Potter (or another good wizard/witch) to ensure that no one ever works out his true purpose, because if the Death Eater caught wind of him being an active member of the Order, he'd be dead anyway. Better a quick death than a long, painful torture for information (because Snape is a skilled Occlumens and a sharp potions master and therefore the only way he'll give up knowledge is brutality; he can fend off any other means of information extraction,) and then a violent, painful death.

Basically, this book really only gets things started. The next book is were amazing stuff gets to go down, and it's where an amazing amount of possibility lies.I full expect Snape to die in the last book but I doubt it will be by Harry's hands. IF the theory is right it's possible he'll sacrifice himself to save Harry's life.

Also forgot that Dumbledore appointed Snape Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher which he knew was jinxed which is possibly because he anticipated things might have to go down the way they did.

[Kathy Kane]

I completely agree with Steele about the Dumbledore/Snape thing. I bet that Dumbledore made him have another unbreakable vow for him to kill him. I wonder what Harry's reaction will be when he finds this out. I also think that the vist to the cave was a final test for Harry, to see if he could endure hurting Dumbledore and a test of loyality. I loved the line "Dumbldore's man through and through".
My favorite part of this book was how Harry had changed from last year, he was so MATURE and he was thinking things though, like when he got Slughorn to give him the information and how he stood up to Scrimgeour. This is no longer the Harry, that was angsty from last year or the one from previous books. I enjoyed that the most, his charicter has grown up and isn't taking orders he's giving them. I also notice that he was more physical this year too, like throwing Mudungus against a wall for stealing Black's stuff.
Speaking of which there's theory that R.A.B. is Regulus Black, Sirius's Death Eater brother.
Now as for the teen drama, it's understandable, and I think Harry realizing that relationships between friends will have conquences later on, even when he tries to patch things up (that was sneaky of him, Herimone's Helping Hand)
Anyway, I do think that some things came out of nowhere, Lupin and Tonks, HBP being Snape, Snape is the DADA and the new Potions teacher. I do think that I wished for more details about Harry's school year and I didn't like Harry's obsesion with Draco. Speaking of which, I think Harry should have listened Murtle and found more out about Draco's dilema before acttacking him. That was one brutal curse. I liked the darker stuff, like the zombies!

[Steve Jester]

YES!!!!!!

Its EXCATLY! What I was hoping for ever since book 1!!!
Harry and Ginny!
Ron and Hermione!!!!!

*does a happy dance*

"Been kissing Pigwidgeon, have you?"
I love Ginny!

LOL!:D
:confused: unless i missed something in that last chapter... Ron and Hermione didn't get together in this book. All though Jo kinda made it highly likely in book 7.

And Harry/Ginny was there, but was "called off" in the last chapter. Though I think that Jo's not going to keep them seperate too long ;):evil::evil::evil::evil::evil::evil:

[Fresh V]

I just got my book today. I hope this thread I still here by the time I finish it.

[TheEvilClown]

I got my book today as well and I have already read 5 chapters of it so. I will let you all know what my feelings are after I read the whole thing which will probally be early in the morning because I can't put the book down.

[purplehairedwonder]

Well, due to an abysmal performance by my softball team on Saturday, we were knocked out of the tournament early, so I was able to get my book earlier than anticipated. And now that I'm finished and my head is sufficiently spinning, I'll share some of my thoughts.

I have to say, many of the theories I've read in this thread are well supported. I would like to think that Snape is still good at the core, and looking back through the back and to some of the arguments, I'd say there is a good case for either side. Snape is such a complex character that it becomes very difficult to pin down his exact motivations at any one point. By killing Dumbledore, Snape not only saved Malfoy's skin, but proved his allegience to Voldemort to the Death Eaters and fulfilled his Unbreakable Bond, therefore saving his own life. Dumbledore was indeed much weaker in this edition and seemed to be preparing Harry for an iminent time that he would not be around to guide him. Thus, after drinking the potion the locket was hidden under, Dumbledore was probably dying as it was, and was pleading with Snape to kill him and do what had to be done. The look of revulsion on Snape's face was then not for Dumbledore, but for the act that he had been forced to commit. Pure conjecture, of course.

The chapter title "Flight of the Prince" made me realize who the Prince had to be, but it was still a surprising revelation. Though it should come as no surprise that Harry's potions would improve with the identity of the Prince. However, despite some small important things the Prince's potions book allowed Harry to do (like save Ron), I was surprised at how small a role it/he played in the whole scheme.

I have to wonder, after Kreacher's betrayal of Sirius in OotP, if when Harry told him "Get out of it," if he'll find a loophole in taking that to mean to leave, as when Sirius ordered him to leave the kitchen, he left the house. However, how much use he would be anymore, I'm not sure.

Speaking of Sirius, I was surprised at how Harry (and Lupin for that matter) seemed to be taking it. Sure, JKR mentioned Harry spent a lot of sleepless nights over it, but I was expecting there to be more, especially after his reaction to Cedric's death. I was hoping to see some explanation about the veil this time, but alas, there was none, so we're just supposed to accept that Sirius is dead. I was expecting to see something more out of Lupin as well, considering he was now the only Marauder left (Wormtail of course, not counting). Perhaps he was internally in anguish, but we never see much of that. And I was surprised to hear that Tonks felt guilt over Siruis' death as well. And Tonks/Lupin? Didn't see that one coming.

The fact that there was an archway that lead to the Horcrux makes me wonder if there was any connection to the one in the Department of Mysteries. It could be a coincidence, but I wonder if perhaps, beyond the veil there is something (for lack of a better word). Then again, the archway there was in the wall and the one Sirius fell through was in the middle of a room. But at the same time, I'm disappointed in the lack of explanation about his death. He was my favorite character (excepting Harry) after all.

Poor Bill, being attacked by Greyback and having his face permanently mutilated to some extent. But it was nice to see that Fleur, despite so many of the Weasely clan hating her, was still in love with him. And their wedding occurring in the events of the 7th book, of course. That seems to prove the point that McGonagall makes about Lupin/Tonks: "Dumbledore would have been happier than anybody to think theat there was a little more love in the world." So, with the obvious dark atmosphere that will permeate the 7th book, there is that shining beacon of love that Dumbledore made such a point about being important throughout his whole life.

The romance in this book seemed a bit underdeveloped, but at the same time, all of it came from Harry's POV, and how often is love something that is easily explained? I was so happy to see Harry/Ginny and hints of Ron/Hermione. I doubt that Harry will be able to keep Ginny away from him in the next book. Again, the theme of love conquering all and such. I think Ginny being a love interest for Harry will be important.

I still think, despite his small role in this book, that there is something big in store for Neville. We hear about his new wand, and he and Luna were the only other D.A. members to come when called.

I have to wonder if Scrimgeour is going to be any better than Fudge. He seemed to have the same politcal frame of mind as Fudge, though he was falsely imprisoning people rather than ignoring the danger. Stan Shunpike as a Death Eater? Not likely. I just loved Harry's comment of being "Dumbledore's man, through and through." And of course, the tip of the hat to the second book: "He will only be gone from the school when none here are loyal to him."

I think it's interesting that Harry plans to go to Godric's Hollow and visit his parent's graves. Will Harry then be revealed to be a descendant of Gryffindor? I have to think yes. What could be a more appropriate final battle: Slytherin vs. Gryffindor, for everything. And of course, Ron and Hermione refusing to leave his side. I have to think that Ginny and Neville will also play part in his search for the Horcruxes.

I think Harry made an important realization during Dumbledore's funeral: "And Harry saw very clearly as he sat there under the hot sun how people who cared aboout him had stood in front of him one by one, his mother, his father, his godfather, and finally Dumbledore, all determined to protect him; but now that was over." He realizes that his final safety net was gone and that Voldemort's destruction became his task. But at the same time, it may be a foreshadowing of events to come in the next book as well.

I had a mental image of the Dead Swamp from Lord of the Rings when Harry saw the bodies in the lake. Sent a massive shiver down my spine.

I enjoyed all the bits of humor that were scattered throughout the book. I especially enjoyed when the Gryffindor password was "Abstinence."

Overall, it was an excellent read and I'm going to need to go through it many more times, combing for details. JKR is definitely a master storyteller. There are so many ways this could go, and as I have been fooled more than once trying to guess, it's almost impossible to tell. But that's half the fun, I think. Anyway, 5/5.

[Mike Spartz]

First of all, I would like to address Fone Bone. In one of your earlier posts, you mentioned that it disappointed you that Jo made every single Slytherin character in the books evil. Now I know you later reconsidered your answer on Snape, however I'd like to show you two other Slytherin's who aren't exactly evil.

The first is a man I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned yet in this discussion, I am speaking of course of Horace Slughorn. Slughorn is, in my opinion, a most interesting character. When I first met him, I never would have believed that he was a Slytherin. He just didn't fit the mold of past Slytherins that we've met who are suppose to be mean, ruthless, and spiteful. Slughorn was, strangely enough, kind to Harry and Dumbledore and the only thing that I didn't like about him was his nervous tone of voice. Later on the Hogwarts Express, I got a much better picture of Slughorn and his Slytherin side. He was neither brash, nor crude, but cunning! His "Slug Club" was an outlet for his ambtions, he wanted to surround himself with powerful wizards because by doing so, he could guarantee himself power and status. Slughorn is not unlike a regluar Slytherin. He values all the same things including power, wealth, and respect but instead of sneering he ues charm to win him favors. This attiude toward life does not make Slughorn evil, but rather vain and arrogant.

The second Slytherin that I want to mention is Draco Malfoy. Malfoy has always been a snot-nosed brat as we all know. This book however, he's branched out and we finally learn something new about him, something abmirable. Draco is loyal to the ones he loves. He knows to put his family first and this quality puts him above his father in all respects. Lucius is a scum bag who serves no one but himself. Lucius regarded his wife and son as property that he could do whatever he wanted with. Draco on the other hand only became a Death Eater because he foolishly thought that he could use his new position to gain favor with Voldemort - a favor that he would use to protect his mother and father. Draco is by no means an angel, but he's not pure evil either. Dumbledore knew enough about his personality to deduce that he was not a killer and now we know enough to consider him a Death Eater not by choice but by loyalty.

Now onto another topic. The next person that I want to discuss is Harry. Is it just me, or did Harry really grow up in this book? He's no longer that skinny little kid we met on the Hogwarts Express all those years ago. The Harry in HBP is confident, in control of his emotions, and even a little cheeky. Did anyone else notice that none of Harry's closest allies played a big part in this book? In the past, Ron and Hermione have always helped Harry out of the most dangerous corners of his life. HBP shows us that although he still relies heavily on his friends for support, Harry has really emeraged as a strong leader. Look at the way he talks to Rufus when the new Minister tries to beckon him into the Ministrys hands. The new Harry stands his ground and talks back to Minister, demanding that he be shown some respect. I can't imagine the Harry of old doing that. Additionally, Harry seemed to be wandering off alone a lot more this book, and it was he who figured out that Malfoy was up to no good - not Ron or Hermione. I'm not saying that Harry is growing apart from his friends, because the three of them are stronger than ever, but he is showing tremendous maturity particularly at the end when he admits that he knows what he must do and that the pr