China & Japan: What your opinion?

[Son Gokuu]

With all what been going on in China about Japan and the war, it has made me ponder about these issues. I mean why is China asking for and apology from Japan when Japan apologised 17 times since 1972!! What more do they want? Blood? The they protest about the textbooks in Japan, they must learn that every country will have different ways of telling the history during the Second World War. Then there's the fact the moaning about Japan invading thier country, what hypocrites.
What a load of crapola this protest is, all I can say is that, before any apology from Japan, the Chinese should apologise to Tibet and Vietnam, after all they invaded these two countries. They should learn to realise Japan already apologised, and should learn to put what happened on the war behind them, I mean we British have, the Germans have, and so have many others. They should apolgise for the riots and the "anti-Japanese" protests, not only at Japan, but they're own country for making a mess, and a disgrace to thier own country. Mind you, Japan asked for the apology for the protests the "anti-Japanese" did, but China refused, with this, Japan was dissapointed. As for Japan apoligising, it's been done 17 times. Maybe Japan, could do one more, maybe to shut them up! Let the baby have it's bottle, as the saying goes.

I have nothing against the Chinese, only the "anti-Japanese", I mean come on. The Japanese have apologised almost 20 times for what they did. Yet China hasn't apologised what they did to Tibet and Vietnam. All this does kind of anger me, as it is an act of a hypocrite, and anact of being an ingrate.

To error is human. To forgive divine.

[Zach]

Japanese people are very kind and well-mannered. The anti-Japanese need to get over what has happened and move on.

[Kagetsu]

That will always be an issue with China, nothing Japan says or does will ever change it. North Korea is the same.

[zmanjz]

Basicly the chinese protests have nothing to do with history and everything to do with power. (On a side note, Mao killed more Chinese citizens than the Japanese ever did.)

couple of things to keep in mind.

1. The Chinese government has learned it's lesson about unregulated demonstration (tienemin). They don't allow it to happen, and the demonstrations that do happen are either sanctioned by the government, or even more likely, Instigated by the Chinese government.

2. China is trying to wrest asian economic power away from Japan and Taiwan.

3. If China can make Japan look bad to the world, then they can use that to increase their own market share and political power.

4. With China increasing it's military drasticly over the past two years, the Japanese government is actively considering increasing their JSDF, OR even taking the steps of creating an "Actively defensive military force".

(It doesn't help matters that there are oil rich islands that are claimed by both China and Japan. If China tries to take them militarily, the US will automaticly assist japan, guaranteed. BUT if china tries to take the Islands through something like the UN or some other International Arbitration body, it's china's hope that they could make Japan look "Undeserving of the islands" and with the assistance of China's Allies at the UN, recieve control of the Island chain, and the Precisious minerals/oil therein.


I believe that whatever Japan did wrong during WW2, they recieved their just retribution for their crimes, and since then, they have become one of the finest countries of the world.

Basicly it's all just a big powergrab by China.


(And I don't know if this is a political thread or a current event thread, so I've asked the other moderators to close this if they feel it is.)

[sKorpia]

I believe that whatever Japan did wrong during WW2, they recieved their just retribution for their crimes, and since then, they have become one of the finest countries of the world.
So that makes it okay that they whitewash history? Does this now mean that America can glaze over its history of slavery? That the Germans can erase the Holocaust from their textbooks? That the British can ignore their history of drug dealership? If you don't remember things accurately, how can you remember what not to do in the future? How can you learn or grow?

I'm not sure I could take the apology of somebody seriously if s/he turned around afterwards and claimed what the apology was for never happened or distorted the truth to minimize the damage to some sense of image.

There isn't a country on the face of this earth that is blameless on a international scale. Everyone's done something to somebody at some time. There should be apologies on both sides, honest and heartfelt, but both governments are stubbornly hardened under the skins and blood of the dead. I'm hoping that the younger generation gets out from under this. I know that there is at least one voice in Japan. Unfortunately, he (I believe it was a he; it could have been the entire creative group behind that manga) was silenced by censorship about the rape of Nanjing.

[Stewie]

For Japan to not put what happened into text books is unseemly to me. (That is what is happening, right?) But China doesn't seem to care about that as much as an excuse to be angry at the Japanese.
I don't see that there are any good guys in this debate. Just people looking to gain an advantage.
Japan as a nation has certainly paid for the crimes that they committed. There's no need for further punishment, but then again, that's not what is being called for. They certainly shouldn't be ignoring bad things they had done. And it's not that hard to be honest about what your country did (in a book) without making it about blaming anyone for it. Blame isn't what's needed. Learning is.

[James]

So that makes it okay that they whitewash history? Does this now mean that America can glaze over its history of slavery? That the Germans can erase the Holocaust from their textbooks? That the British can ignore their history of drug dealership? If you don't remember things accurately, how can you remember what not to do in the future? How can you learn or grow?
However the protests are very much simply a government sanctioned method of allowing the country blow off steam. As far as I'm aware, it's one text book is it not that has not recounted the historical events correctly. It doesn't ignore the events it "downplays them" as has been commented in the media.

To be frank, it's perspective. There are two sides to every story. For example, American Independence to the Americans is taught as the right to be free of the shackles of the British Empire, the British are taught essentially it was a veto of taxes. It's all perspective. Is there really a true historical fact?

As long as the Japanese don't utterly ignore certain occurances (which as devils advocate I believe they have tried in the past in regards to the occurances at Nagasaki and Hiroshima) then I don't think there is an issue here. If a text book downplays it, but there is other information still available, I don't think it's as massive an issue as China makes out. If there was a total removal of objective historical evidence from Japan's public domain regarding China, it would be a very different story.

Our nations are all accountable for obmissions and it is in the realms of fantasy to see that change. China is hardly a country free of secrets and atrocities I'm sure.. but their relevance and perspective depends on what side of the coin you are on.

While I'm not condoning any censorship or "downplaying" of history, it happens. By all reports I hear, Japan's offense seems fairly minimal compared to the protests in China. This is a textbook interpretation not a governmental denial.

I appreciate how this would genuinely anger many Chinese, but the whole situation has a feeling of political motivation.

Maybe - in the interest of good relations - the Japanese should consider the positive implications of ammending this historical interpretation, but I do feel there are political currents which aren't entirely pure at work here.

[Stewie]

To be frank, it's perspective. There are two sides to every story. For example, American Independence to the Americans is taught as the right to be free of the shackles of the British Empire, the British are taught essentially it was a veto of taxes.Ha! It took me years to really figure that one out for myself.

[sKorpia]

As far as I'm aware, it's one text book is it not that has not recounted the historical events correctly. It doesn't ignore the events it "downplays them" as has been commented in the media....If a text book downplays it, but there is other information still available, I don't think it's as massive an issue as China makes out. If there was a total removal of objective historical evidence from Japan's public domain regarding China, it would be a very different story.
Explain the censorship of the manga then. That's outside the realm of public school education and it was still shut down (internally, externally, it really doesn't matter because the implications of either are very bad). And it's one textbook this time, but there's been a history of anger at textbooks in the past which have done the same thing as this current textbook. Since none of that ever got closure, it just keeps building up with each successive textbook that continues to "downplay" or ignore the issue.

I think it'll continue to be a massive issue until the survivors of that massacre die off . . . and if the stories, which have to be told, have managed to educate without spreading enmity. I had nothing to do with Nanjing, I have no family ties to that region and no relatives who lived through it, but even I wondered how I could possibly have Japanese friends or like anime when I read the accounts. It didn't last long, that feeling of conflict, and I still have Japanese friends and watch anime. Still . . . the brutality, the wanton destruction . . . it's a sucker-punch to the gut. And the pictures are worse. Just the thought of downplaying it seems wrong to those who suffered.

It'd be easier to teach that chapter of world history as a lesson on how easily man can be cruel to man. Like that psych experiment that had students play-acting wardens and prisoners. Unfortunately, no leader in the world wants to hear that lesson. Or have their soldiers learn it.

China's best move, really, is to be the bigger country and apologize for the violent demonstrations. That would lend more credence to their claim that Japan's not responsible enough to take the post it wants. After all, responsible countries own up to morally culpable acts . . . don't they?

[Kuja's Light]

The Japanese may be well-mannered, but they have their own bad things so to speak. Firstly, they disrespect many non fully Japanese people I've heard. Also women there aren't as open to do things as American women. Which is really sad.

[Son Gokuu]

Good to hear some opinions on this. I agree that Japan did do bad in the past, but they have learned from this, so there is no need for any punishment. I belive the Chinese need to be punished for what they did to Tibet and Vietnam, and especially for being hypocritical. I belive that, yes the protests could also be to do with power.
Another subject but related to Chinese power and econmany (as you know I did updates on MG-Rover - our last major British owned car manufacturer), but I don't know whether the Chinese did a good move to pull out of the deal with MG-Rover or whether it was foolish move, they got the intellectual properties for the K-seris engine and the Rover 25 with out any deal with MG-R. It makes you wonder, are they being sneaky as they know it will sell like hot cakes there and they don't have to buy and/or pledge money to MG-R, or was it all a terrible coincidence that MG-R collapsed, and the Chinese were really concerned about the financial status. Hmmmm. I just have my suspicions.
As for the women in Japan issue, at least it's not as bad as some middle-eastern countries, where women must have arranged marrages, if they look at another man they get stoned to death, this is why many people from these countries come here, becuase they are free, but thats another story! Mind you China isn't any better to women, are they?

At least Japan has one of the lowest crime rates!

[James]

Explain the censorship of the manga then. That's outside the realm of public school education and it was still shut down (internally, externally, it really doesn't matter because the implications of either are very bad). And it's one textbook this time, but there's been a history of anger at textbooks in the past which have done the same thing as this current textbook. Since none of that ever got closure, it just keeps building up with each successive textbook that continues to "downplay" or ignore the issue.

Well, contrary to what people here might say, I don't think any censorship to Manga is quite a gag on public resources. :)

Personally, I'm for public domain. It is interesting however, that you condemn so harshly Japan for it's actions and yet China I'm sure isn't exactly forthcoming with it's historical records with it's own people. I mean no disrespect to the Chinese, but I believe the nature of the Chinese government is not one based on public domain and the individual rights of the person. I would imagine that makes for a more singular perspective in it's education.

Does that make Japan's policy right? From the outset - being not a great follow of Japan's society - no. However, as I said the issue here between the two countries is a little more deeper than this issue of the text book..

After all, responsible countries own up to morally culpable acts . . . don't they?
And that would require a univesal definition of morality, which I'm not sure there is one. History and life is extremely conplex, wraught with individual eddies that create cirumstances. Speak to the Japanese about World War II and you'll see an entirely different perspective to the West's account.

[Son Gokuu]

Well, contrary to what people here might say, I don't think any censorship to Manga is quite a gag on public resources. :)

Personally, I'm for public domain. It is interesting however, that you condemn so harshly Japan for it's actions and yet China I'm sure isn't exactly forthcoming with it's historical records with it's own people. I mean no disrespect to the Chinese, but I believe the nature of the Chinese government is not one based on public domain and the individual rights of the person. I would imagine that makes for a more singular perspective in it's education.

Does that make Japan's policy right? From the outset - being not a great follow of Japan's society - no. However, as I said the issue here between the two countries is a little more deeper than this issue of the text book..

Exaclty! It is more than the textook issues, I'm not being nasty, but quite frankly I don't give a monkeys toss about the textbook issues anymore, every country puts thier history in thier own perspective. However I digress, the mai problem is China, they want the Japanese to apologise what they did during the war, and either the Chinese have either a memory of a Goldfish and keep forgetting, or they are being stubborn, after all the Japanese apologised 17 times since 1972, so it's been done. yet they are being hypocrites, they want the Japanese to apologise for this, when they themselves haven't apologised to Tibet and Vietnam. This just sickens me.

[Son Gokuu]

Explain the censorship of the manga then. That's outside the realm of public school education and it was still shut down (internally, externally, it really doesn't matter because the implications of either are very bad). And it's one textbook this time, but there's been a history of anger at textbooks in the past which have done the same thing as this current textbook. Since none of that ever got closure, it just keeps building up with each successive textbook that continues to "downplay" or ignore the issue.

I think it'll continue to be a massive issue until the survivors of that massacre die off . . . and if the stories, which have to be told, have managed to educate without spreading enmity. I had nothing to do with Nanjing, I have no family ties to that region and no relatives who lived through it, but even I wondered how I could possibly have Japanese friends or like anime when I read the accounts. It didn't last long, that feeling of conflict, and I still have Japanese friends and watch anime. Still . . . the brutality, the wanton destruction . . . it's a sucker-punch to the gut. And the pictures are worse. Just the thought of downplaying it seems wrong to those who suffered.

It'd be easier to teach that chapter of world history as a lesson on how easily man can be cruel to man. Like that psych experiment that had students play-acting wardens and prisoners. Unfortunately, no leader in the world wants to hear that lesson. Or have their soldiers learn it.

China's best move, really, is to be the bigger country and apologize for the violent demonstrations. That would lend more credence to their claim that Japan's not responsible enough to take the post it wants. After all, responsible countries own up to morally culpable acts . . . don't they?
Yes, but not only does China need to apologise for this monstrocity of a protest (was it ever a monstrocity seeing it on BBC News24, sniggering and throwing stones and other 'missiles', the smug looks, even a group was destroying a Japanese resturant, and as the repoter said, the owner could have been Chinese!). They should also apologise to Tibet and Vietnam, otherwise they will be hypoctrites in the eyes of many.

[sKorpia]

*sigh* I just get upset when people go off as if Japan is the only Asian country worth trusting.

As for the apology, Son Gokuu, read what I said above about the sincerity of the apology. For China, the general feeling is that the Japanese were never sincere in their apology for what they did during the war. And I hope you realize that by war, I'm talking about 1937-1945, not the Western belief that WW2 only went from 1941 (or 1939) - 1945. Can you be sincere in your apology while still making an annual pilgrimmage to a memorial that's erected to the same people who committed those crimes against humanity during the war? Would the world have believed that the Germans were repentant over the Holocaust if the current German leaders still visited and paid tribute to a memorial for Hitler and the Auschwitz doctors?

And, btw, all countries are hypocrites in the area of owning up to what they've done in the past. (Why yes, that sentence in my previous post was said tongue-in-cheek.) It's part of why America will support Japan's bid for the UN and never pressure them into giving a sincere apology. Have the British ever apologized for drugging an entire nation into "giving away" a prime shipping harbor?

As for the belief that I'm being biased, no, China's got a lot of bad blood and dirty secrets. So does every country on this planet. Do I believe that the demonstrations were goverment-orchestrated? Yeah, I can totally believe that the Chinese government had a hand in it . . . or at least looked the other way for a while when they went down. I never said that they shouldn't apologize for it.

What's been interesting about this situation is how many uninformed people (I'm not saying here; I've been noticing it in the news) have such automatic opinions about it, without any knowledge or appreciation for the history behind the relations between these two countries. I'm not sure how much of it is spin, designed to inflame passions against the Chinese government. But, whenever stuff like this comes up, I do worry about history repeating itself in the form of internment camps and discrimination. And I'm an American citizen!

Here's another interesting thing. Son Gokuu goes off on a seemingly unrelated matter, describing the actions of the Chinese businesspeople as "sneaky" and generally playing into the stereotype that "them Chinks cain't be trusted!" Ever think about it as a business strategy? Or that maybe they have legitimate concerns for pulling out? That businessmen all over the world jockey and vie for any advantage they can get? That to be cunning and smart in order to get to the top is actually how the world works? (And if you don't believe me, try applying for med school with a bunch of wound-up-way-too-tight pre-meds.) The prejudice isn't blatant, but the flavor of it has remained.

As for the censorship of the manga, no it's not a widesweeping lockdown on public resources. But if the Japanese government was behind it, that implies that they don't want those views of the war accessible to kids and teens and that they have demonstrated that they are okay with shutting down publications that don't suit their needs. If it was self-censorship by the magazine or publisher, that indicates that they're afraid of some type of punishment, that the clime or public atmosphere isn't open to (or outright hostile to) any mention of the incident. It's not as if the manga was a comic book version of Iris Chang's book. It just mentioned the incident, had a few pages and panels on it. And it wasn't even a main focus of the manga itself. Well, we all know how, under the self-censorship wrought by the Comics Code, the comic book industry fared in those conditions and what types of stories were allowed to be told.

[Son Gokuu]

[QUOTE]
*sigh* I just get upset when people go off as if Japan is the only Asian country worth trusting.

As for the apology, Son Gokuu, read what I said above about the sincerity of the apology. For China, the general feeling is that the Japanese were never sincere in their apology for what they did during the war. And I hope you realize that by war, I'm talking about 1937-1945, not the Western belief that WW2 only went from 1941 (or 1939) - 1945. Can you be sincere in your apology while still making an annual pilgrimmage to a memorial that's erected to the same people who committed those crimes against humanity during the war? Would the world have believed that the Germans were repentant over the Holocaust if the current German leaders still visited and paid tribute to a memorial for Hitler and the Auschwitz doctors?Actually, look at France, they have a memorial gloryfying Napoleans past, and hasn't sparked outrage. 'nuff said. I may be going on like a broken MP3, ut has China apologised to Tibet and Vietnam. I don't think so! Touche!

As for the belief that I'm being biased, no, China's got a lot of bad blood and dirty secrets. So does every country on this planet. Do I believe that the demonstrations were goverment-orchestrated? Yeah, I can totally believe that the Chinese government had a hand in it . . . or at least looked the other way for a while when they went down. I never said that they shouldn't apologize for it.But China has to move with the times and forget about the past. It can't be changed, what do they expect magical elves to sort it out for them.

What's been interesting about this situation is how many uninformed people (I'm not saying here; I've been noticing it in the news) have such automatic opinions about it, without any knowledge or appreciation for the history behind the relations between these two countries. I'm not sure how much of it is spin, designed to inflame passions against the Chinese government. But, whenever stuff like this comes up, I do worry about history repeating itself in the form of internment camps and discrimination. And I'm an American citizen!Here's another interesting thing. Son Gokuu goes off on a seemingly unrelated matter, describing the actions of the Chinese businesspeople as "sneaky" and generally playing into the stereotype that "them Chinks cain't be trusted!" Ever think about it as a business strategy? Or that maybe they have legitimate concerns for pulling out? That businessmen all over the world jockey and vie for any advantage they can get? That to be cunning and smart in order to get to the top is actually how the world works? (And if you don't believe me, try applying for med school with a bunch of wound-up-way-too-tight pre-meds.) The prejudice isn't blatant, but the flavor of it has remained.What a load of bloody tripe! Don't rush to colclusions matey! You may find yourself in more hot water than you can bear! I wasn't "sterioyping", I was pondering on the issues, wther it was good for them not to go through with the deal or not. Besides the interlectual properties they bought off MG-Rover were for the K-seris engine and the 25 small-hatch, they haven't got the right to the brand, so it may not work. Mind you they sell Morris Itals and rebadged Austin Maestros, so who knows what can happen. But you see I was for the deal with the SAIC (Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation) and MG-Rover, it would have been great for it to go through. But it can't be a buisness plan, 5000 out of 6000 worker were made redundant, how devatstaing, for our last major car mauufacturer to go like this, oh, wait you don't know what it's like to see this, you live in a country who has GM and Ford going big time, but then they are benefiting from profit losses. You see, you blast my country, I blast yours back, isn't that lovely!
As for trust, you can't trust every country, you can't trust anybody or anything.
But as for what going on, China has to move on, the past is the past, okay, then, they should forget the deal with MG-Rover, and perhaps revive DeLoreans, they can modify one and go back in time. Everybodies a winner!
Maybe everybodies a sinner!

You play dirty I can play dirty. Touche!
:p

[SSJPabs]

I fear China as I fear no one human construct now living. The only things I fear more than China are disease and global climate change. As such I can see myself countenancing just about anything to keep them in a position lower than that of my own nation. Also I enjoy some aspects of Japanese culture and so I am clearly siding with Japan here.

The thing is, the Chinese have always believed they are the center of the universe, hence why they called themselves the "Middle-Kingdom" and with their economic leverage over the United States I sweat bullets every other day in regards to China.

However I am saddened and discouraged with myself for my fear of China. Also, I am more than willing to side with India in the next 50 years if nothing else as a check on China.

[Son Gokuu]

I fear China as I fear no one human construct now living. The only things I fear more than China are disease and global climate change. As such I can see myself countenancing just about anything to keep them in a position lower than that of my own nation. Also I enjoy some aspects of Japanese culture and so I am clearly siding with Japan here.

However I am saddened and discouraged with myself for my fear of China. Due to various reasons I won't go into hear.

At least I recognize that it is soley fear. So also, I am more than willing to side with India in the next 50 years if nothing else as a check on China.I see you're point. Seeing the protests, I felt fear, fear what the future will hold. But I also was angered by this, by the actions they did by causing a riot. Why can't they talk it over like human beings. I don't think Japan should apologise (yet), only once China apologises to Tibet and Vietnam and thier own people.

[Turtle25]

I've always said I think the Japanese are a culture with a lot of deeply rooted issues, and revisionism is a symptom. I think they do it because they know they can get away with it, thanks to people like you. While I dislike China's government (policy and history wise), the Japanese government is no better in regards to their past, and in some ways their present. Their culture has just been open for longer, letting them paint a sunny face on everything.

Ironically, I seem to have trusted the old British colonial government better than either the Chinese or Japanese governments.

[William C. Maune]

I've always said I think the Japanese are a culture with a lot of deeply rooted issues, and revisionism is a symptom. I think they do it because they know they can get away with it, thanks to people like you. While I dislike China's government (policy and history wise), the Japanese government is no better in regards to their past, and in some ways their present. Their culture has just been open for longer, letting them paint a sunny face on everything.

While I don't think whitewashing of one's past is a good thing, I think how a country handles itself in the present should be the more important factor. To roughly quote what someone inteviewed said in a recent news story on this, "I'm almost 50 years old and I was born after WW2, what do I have to apoligize for?" If a country improves then I think it should be recognized, otherwise continually holding a country to its past doesn't accomplish much. In this day and age China is generally not only less open, but a far more oppressive a country than Japan.

[Wild Goose]

Frankly, I'm more worried about China than Japan.

Also, bear in mind - after WW2, Japan has not done ANYTHING remotely agressive to it's neighbours at all. The big bully in Asia is now China. Last year, a Chinese sub snuck into Japanese waters, and the Chinese simply blew off the matter like it was nothing. (Dunno how the sub crew felt after the JMSDF chased them around for 2 days...)

China has the world's largest standing army, and is in a prime sopt to project power anywhere. It's built a runway on the disputed Spratly islands, which could conceivably be used as a staging point for nuke-carrying Sukohoi Su-30 fighters that they own... and that runway allows those Sukhois to reach anywhere in SE Asia.

And yes, Mao killed more people than Japan in the Cultural Revolution, as well as the Gang of Four did when they were in power.

[Chris Wood]

I just want to see a grudge match in a cage. Maybe with Mr. T announcing.

[Son Gokuu]

While I don't think whitewashing of one's past is a good thing, I think how a country handles itself in the present should be the more important factor. To roughly quote what someone inteviewed said in a recent news story on this, "I'm almost 50 years old and I was born after WW2, what do I have to apoligize for?" If a country improves then I think it should be recognized, otherwise continually holding a country to its past doesn't accomplish much. In this day and age China is generally not only less open, but a far more oppressive a country than Japan.
Exactly, whitewashing a past is wrong. As for what was said from some of the Japanese, yes again, what do the 'younger' generation or those born during and after WW2 have to apologise for, they were't involed in the war. Mind you those involved in the war, it wasn't thier fault either most of the troops were brutalised into doing what they did by thier commanding officers.
I must also agree the Japan is less opressive than China, learning about Japanese life, it does seem there is some freedom, women can get a job for instnace, they can have freedom of speech though being outspoken is bad manners, the list goes on, the is hardly any repression. Yes women don't get treated as equal, but it's the same here, women don't get a higher pay, us fellas do, but I guess cheaper car insurance for women does cancel it out ;) .

[Son Gokuu]

I've always said I think the Japanese are a culture with a lot of deeply rooted issues, and revisionism is a symptom. I think they do it because they know they can get away with it, thanks to people like you.Whom are you reverting to. For the record squire, don't point fingers. Monkeys point.

[Kuja's Light]

Women have much more freedom here, despite not getting as much money as a man in the general case.

Anyways... I have no qualms besides those issues with Japan. That's how I am personally. Either get over it or not.

[Son Gokuu]

Women have much more freedom here, despite not getting as much money as a man in the general case.

Anyways... I have no qualms besides those issues with Japan. That's how I am personally. Either get over it or not.
Well each country has it's own way on gender issues, yes, I'm a lad, yes when I mentioned the insurance issue for example it does anger me, as a young male driver it's not fair, the "safe driver" issue isn't gender based, and whoever thought it was and made this "discovery" should be dragged out onto the street and shot! It's down to the individual person and how they think.

However I digress back onto the topic, I belive it is best for China toget over what has happened, and put what happened behind them, let's face it us British and the Germans don't bicker on about what happened with WW1 and WW2 (1914-1918 and 1939-45 respectivley), we've put it all behind us, so, yes, we do get taught about it in our history lessons, but thats as far as it goes.

Besides the Japanese textbooks that have offened the Chinese have NOT even been published yet, so it may or may not get approved! Even if it is accepted only a handful of Japanese school are to use it. We live in a funny old world.

[Ben]

With all what been going on in China about Japan and the war, it has made me ponder about these issues. I mean why is China asking for and apology from Japan when Japan apologised 17 times since 1972!! What more do they want? Blood? The they protest about the textbooks in Japan, they must learn that every country will have different ways of telling the history during the Second World War. Then there's the fact the moaning about Japan invading thier country, what hypocrites.

Yeah, it makes you wonder. Maybe if the Japanese apologized because they were sorry and not for political expediency's sake then we might be on the road to reconciliation right now.

Basicly the chinese protests have nothing to do with history and everything to do with power. (On a side note, Mao killed more Chinese citizens than the Japanese ever did.)

You're right in that China is much worse in terms of government and political liberty and that they are taking advantage of Chinese public opinion (and Japanese pigheadedness) to accomplish political objectives. But I wouldn't be a good constructionist if I let you get away with saying it's all about power.

The Chinese government would never be able to harness their agenda to these protests unless there was a very real cultural conflict going on. The average Chinese person today may not have detailed knowledge of the distant past, but he or she does have a general feeling that China is a great nation that should dominate Asia, did so at some point in the past before the Europeans, Americans and Japanese came along, and will and should dominate Asia again in the future. This is not just an attitude held by people in the government, which should be fairly obvious given how large the protests have been.

Japanese attitudes vis-a-vis China, for their part, haven't really changed all that much in the last hundred and fifty years. They still have their inferiority complex that makes them defensive and hostile to China, and that's been there since even long before the Meiji Era. The other important thing to remember is that there was not very much of a change in leadership in Japan after World War II. Briefly, the Japan Communist Party and other incipient left-wing parties tried to liberalize Japan, but in the late 40s and into the 50s the US became increasingly paranoid about Communism, to the point that supporting the prewar leadership in the form of the LDP (which, it turns out, probably received covert funding from the CIA for much of its Cold War history) was seen as the price we had to pay to hold the Soviet Union at bay. The US thus supported amnesty for purged politicians, including Kishi Nobusuke, prime minister from 1957-1960, who was a Class A war criminal and had been a minister in Tojo's wartime cabinet. Japanese corporations, including those that had been involved with production of war materiel (like Mitsubishi), were allowed to continue through the postwar for much the same reasons: expedient, fast recovery to fight Communism. Even some newspapers that were largely responsible for promoting the war stayed in the postwar. The Asahi Shimbun even kept the same logo (though now it likes to think of itself as more of a center-left paper relatively speaking). The result of all this is that Japanese people start to think WWII (or The Ten Years War, depending on your POV) couldn't possibly have been their fault. At worst it was a fluke, a brief, misguided detour on the Meiji path to modernization. At best it wasn't Japan's fault at all-- they were just there to help other Asian countries industrialize and anyone who says otherwise is simply lying. There really are Japanese who think this and they're not insignificant in number.

The even more dangerous type, though, is the intelligent, often ex-liberal cadre of neoreactionaries who to some extent acknowledge the atrocities Japan committed and Japan's responsibility for the war but say that so much of it is lies that it's better forgotten and should stay out of the classroom for the good of the nation. The emblem of this (very recent) movement is Professor Fujioka Nobukatsu, a professor of education at Tokyo University, and his Committee to Write New History Textbooks, and a more popular cultural figure is revisionist manga-ka Kobayashi Yoshinori. Fujioka argues that history classes aren't about teaching history, they're about cultivating national pride, and what is selected to be taught should be strictly based on that goal. I wish I could say these figures represent the lunatic fringe and are never taken seriously, but there are a lot of Japanese who agree with them, many of them very young. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

As long as the Japanese don't utterly ignore certain occurances (which as devils advocate I believe they have tried in the past in regards to the occurances at Nagasaki and Hiroshima)

You're saying the Japanese have tried to ignore Nagasaki and Hiroshima? Are we talking about the same country here?

I think it'll continue to be a massive issue until the survivors of that massacre die off . . . and if the stories, which have to be told, have managed to educate without spreading enmity. I had nothing to do with Nanjing, I have no family ties to that region and no relatives who lived through it, but even I wondered how I could possibly have Japanese friends or like anime when I read the accounts. It didn't last long, that feeling of conflict, and I still have Japanese friends and watch anime. Still . . . the brutality, the wanton destruction . . . it's a sucker-punch to the gut. And the pictures are worse. Just the thought of downplaying it seems wrong to those who suffered.

There's no reason to blame Japanese young people automatically for what their grandfathers did, just as there's no reason to blame me personally for the firebombing of Tokyo, Dresden, or Kobe, or for the Vietnam War, the atomic bombings, the atrocities Saddam Hussein committed as an American proxy, the postwar criminal treatment of Okinawans, the Mexican-American War, the American-supported coups in Latin America, I think I've made my point. At the same time, I accept that the culture I carry is the same culture that enabled or even caused some of those things to happen, so I am accountable to the future to recognize those problems within myself and fight to prevent my society from doing something like that again. Though I don't think I've been doing a very good job of that lately.

And American textbooks downplay all the historical events I mentioned (particularly Vietnam) from here to next Tuesday. The Japanese and Chinese aren't the only ones guilty of this particular historical crime. It's just that the people whose countries we devastate usually stay so poor that their opinions don't matter to us.

Exaclty! It is more than the textook issues, I'm not being nasty, but quite frankly I don't give a monkeys toss about the textbook issues anymore, every country puts thier history in thier own perspective.

Looking at Japan independent of any comparison to China, the textbook issue is still a big problem. The attitudes behind creating textbooks that turn a historically important atrocity of rape, murder and pillaging into a brief phrase like "looting at Nanking" (which is what happened in an earlier incident, I haven't seen the exact quotes from this one), the attitudes I previously mentioned, replicate and strengthen themselves through school textbooks. Texts are much more important in Japan than they are here, since they provide the entire framework for the course and the teacher has little to no freedom to deviate from them. The teacher is also rarely if ever allowed to bring in outside sources, since what texts are approved to use in the classroom is so strictly controlled.

And it's not just companies writing revisionist texts that's the problem. The government has made a practice out of "failing to approve" and sending back for specific revisions texts that play up the war too much. The prime example is Ienaga Saburo's texts. Ienaga is/was (he might be dead by now) recognized as a preeminent scholar of Japanese history, and he wrote the first postwar Japanese history textbook under the occupation (for elementary schoolers, called Footsteps of a Nation). His later high school history texts were sent back by the Ministry of Education for specific revisions that asked him to de-emphasize Nanking, Okinawa, and even the importance of common laborers to building Japanese history. There were other changes they required as well, very few of which could remotely be justified under the narrow criterion of "historical error."

Understanding the historical causes behind these general attitudes is more important than harping on the Yasukuni Shrine or international textbook dispute issues. But the fact is that Japan had and has serious problems as a struggling democracy. If we paper over them by saying China is so much worse then we're making exactly the same mistake we made in the 1950s re: the Soviet Union, and when we did it that time we caused a lot of the problems Japan has now. Japan has to approach its own problems (and American scholars of Japan have to approach Japanese problems) on their own terms, without the contamination of contemporary East Asian power politics, or they will never truly be solved.

I fear China as I fear no one human construct now living. The only things I fear more than China are disease and global climate change. As such I can see myself countenancing just about anything to keep them in a position lower than that of my own nation. Also I enjoy some aspects of Japanese culture and so I am clearly siding with Japan here.

As I said, it's possible to enjoy Japanese culture and not "side" with the Japanese government. Alongside the attitudes I mentioned there is also a long tradition of liberal pacifism and it too is continuous from the prewar era. Granted, it's a history of being successively crushed, but they do keep trying and it is a distinct kind of liberalism from any other country in the world. It's also the brand of intellectualism that gave birth to some of my favorite directors (Takahata, Miyazaki, Kawamori).

And re: being scared of China, Americans tend to overestimate China and underestimate India. China will certainly be a bigger and bigger player in East Asia and could even have a shot at regional dominance if we're not careful, but realistically China doesn't have a shot at becoming a serious global rival to the US for at least 50, probably more like 75 years. And that's if things go really well.

[Weatherman]

I siding with Twage on this one. He's got alot more insight into contemporary japanese attitudes and contempory japanese history then the rest of us sicne he's spent a fair amount of thime there doing research and stuff. Japan did and does still have a very blatant militaristic and revisionsit streak. Downplaying the war in school texts is not, as Twage noted, a new controversy that just broke last week. It's been a long-standing dispute between Japan and the rest of Asia.

And, just to add more thought to the pile, alot of this stmes from the fact that while the rest of Asia has serious human right issues both past and present, none of them have gone running around occupying their neighbors and committign atrocities the way Japan did from roughly the turn of the last century after the Russo-Japanese war till the end of WWII. It's one thing to abuse your own people, it's another to be abused by a foreign power.

[Son Gokuu]

But is it right for the "anti-Japanese" Chinese to act like morons with these protests for a tetbook that hasn't been published, and, IF it does get approved only a small number of Japanese schools will accpet them? Besides China is being hypocritical for not apologising to Tibet and Vietnam.

[Ben]

But is it right for the Chinese to act like morons with these protests for a tetbook that hasn't been published, and, IF it does get approved only a small number of Japanese schools will accpet them? Besides China is being hypocritical for not apologising to Tibet and Vietnam. I would tell 'em to sod off meself!

I'd like to see you come face to face with a Chinese homeless man orphaned by the Japanese invasion or to a Korean woman who as a girl was taken by the Japanese army and systematically raped by Japanese soldiers in Manchuria or Taiwan and tell them to "sod off." I don't understand why you're so intent on a) defending the Japanese and b) equating the Chinese government with the Chinese people. You're being very unfair, even callous. Just as the problems of the Japanese government are not the fault of every single Japanese, the problems of the Chinese government are not the fault of every Chinese who is angry at Japan.

I'm trying to open up the discussion to take into account the bigger historical factors at work here. Did you even read my post?

[sKorpia]

Thanks, Twage.

There's no reason to blame Japanese young people automatically for what their grandfathers did...At the same time, I accept that the culture I carry is the same culture that enabled or even caused some of those things to happen, so I am accountable to the future to recognize those problems within myself and fight to prevent my society from doing something like that again. [Note: my emphasis added] Though I don't think I've been doing a very good job of that lately.
I agree that there's absolutely no reason to blame the young people. What I was describing (and I didn't make this clear enough through my quantifying phrase regarding no personal ties, for which I apologize) was an emotional response to the horror.

Now, as to the reason why I bolded part of your text: After wrestling for a few years with the issue of responsibility, I've come to the conclusion that this statement, "It was my grandparents, not me! I shouldn't have to take responsibility for the sins of my fathers", is a load of crock. Every future generation takes on the responsibility when they absorb the knowledge. As Twage pointed out, it's not the responsibility for fixing the past but for ensuring that the future doesn't make the same mistakes. This is the ultimate price we pay for knowledge and the ultimate responsibility that comes with accepting knowledge. I don't think enough people realize this, especially those who believe that the past is somehow less important or not relevant to the present and future. Nations, just like people, are shaped by their pasts. An ancient sore spot, unless openly addressed and resolved, will continue to influence present and future relations.

I didn't read Son Gokuu's response to my post. I couldn't bring myself to slog through poor formatting again; it hurt my eyes. Was there anything worthwhile? (No, I'm not being sassy. I'm being honest.)

Another note on fear. While some here have expressed fear over China's position (somehow, North Korea and the entire Al-Qaeda network fell off the world map, I see), I in turn fear you. With the right mob mentality, I forsee the potential for anti-Chinese lootings and riots in the Chinatowns of America along with that ever-latent fear of internment camps. I'm not paranoid. I'm not saying it will happen. But I know how quickly public sentiment can be turned against a group and I never put it past humanity to repeat history. I could feel this same fear in Asian-American communities during and after the Lee Wen-Ho/Los Alamos thing. How glorious, the return of fear-begetting-fear.

[JetMaster5]

Well, people are stupid. And they will remain stupid unless each person actually starts researching about political issues and think for themselves, rather than have the story fed to them constantly by biased newspapers and popular, local, government-controlled media outlets.

[Chris Wood]

Incidentally, most nations probably indulge in some degree of "whitewashing" in their history books. It's a natural instinct. Just pick your junior high text.

[Son Gokuu]

I'd like to see you come face to face with a Chinese homeless man orphaned by the Japanese invasion or to a Korean woman who as a girl was taken by the Japanese army and systematically raped by Japanese soldiers in Manchuria or Taiwan and tell them to "sod off." I don't understand why you're so intent on a) defending the Japanese and b) equating the Chinese government with the Chinese people. You're being very unfair, even callous. (No I'm not, what a POS this info is) Just as the problems of the Japanese government are not the fault of every single Japanese, the problems of the Chinese government are not the fault of every Chinese who is angry at Japan.

I'm trying to open up the discussion to take into account the bigger historical factors at work here. Did you even read my post?Oh Jesus bloody Christ! Here we go again, jumping to bloody concluclsions! What is with people!
The only pepole I have a problem with are the "anti-Japanese" Chinese, they're more like extremists, and there is nothing more than I hate the extremeists. They were chanting "The Japanese must die", when it was only a minority! I know it's not the Chinese fault, my mistake is I forgot to put the "anti-Japanese" ones. But, when I think of it now, I'm laughing in my head, and why? I'll tell you, there they are protestsing against the Japanese, but when you cinsider the facts:
1) The damn book isn't published yet, and the past is the past, and;
2) The damage they are doing is in thier own country, they are damaging China, not Japan.
I'm not siding with any one, it just the Chinese haven't apologised with what happened with Tibet and Vietnam (hopefully, with this being ostenacious, no-one will miss this importan issues out). You are also right in the above (for once), it is NOT the Chinese Governmants fault, they have being oing thier best to stop the protests. It's just I hate all extremists, whether they are "anti-Japanese", Muslim extremists (like that nonse Abdul Hamza preeching on our streets to kill the British), or "Animal-rights" extremists, like this tosser who stole a Rabbit from a magician a few weeks back and let it into the wild, what a nob-head, the Rabbit will be killed by others since it is tame. All extremists can go bugger off all I care. I edited the previous post to shut a few mouths up anyway, these "anti-Japanese" extremists, they need a life rather than protest about a book that isn't published and will be accepted by a handful of Japanese schools, you heard a handfull. In fact ALL extremists need a life, killing people doesn't solve anything, being bullish doesn't solve anything, it's all as useful as a chocolate fireguard.

[Son Gokuu]

I didn't read Son Gokuu's response to my post. I couldn't bring myself to slog through poor formatting again; it hurt my eyes. Was there anything worthwhile? (No, I'm not being sassy. I'm being honest.)
Sassy no, but audacity springs to mind. I bet you think you're very mature. Someone ought to teach you a lesson in manners madame minx, becuase at this rate I'm not impressed by your attitude, you are very chlidish and you must learn to act you're age, at least I'm responcable for my actions, and I do have my dignity, and I don't not wish to have my intelligence insulted, but yes, I know your kind of people, your all the same, attitude attitude attitude, how you all bore me, all as exciting as a Vauxhall Nova (not very in other words). My, my how you insult me. Me? Not putting anything worthile? Tsk tsk, very very dissapointing. If your eyes hurt, you shouldn't be puttin' those fingers in there :p .

[Son Gokuu]

Incidentally, most nations probably indulge in some degree of "whitewashing" in their history books. It's a natural instinct. Just pick your junior high text.
Well done, for putting this info in. You deserve a bucket load of Brownie Points! Kudos. I couldn't have said it better myself, I guess the textbooks in our schools will have some sort of "whitewashing" somewhere!

[RD!]

I'm confused... you like anime so you're a martyr for the Japanese people no matter what?

So... you don't like Chinese food?

[Ben]

I'll tell you, there they are protestsing against the Japanese, but when you cinsider the facts:
1) The damn book isn't published yet, and the past is the past, and;

It's not about the textbook. The whole point of my post was to try to have people forget about the textbook. It's about the war.

I'm not siding with any one, it just the Chinese haven't apologised with what happened with Tibet and Vietnam [color=black](hopefully, with this being ostenacious, no-one will miss this importan issues out). You are also right in the above (for once), it is NOT the Chinese Governmants fault, they have being oing thier best to stop the protests.

First of all, if the Chinese government were really trying to stop the protests all the protesters would have been in prison after the first day. The government is at the least allowing the protests to happen and at most actively supports them. Secondly, you misread my point about "the people aren't the government." You keep bringing up Tibet and Vietnam. Tibet was more the Chinese government's fault than the fault of the common Chinese people on the coast. They have little to apologize for in terms of Tibet, especially when you consider China has a totalitarian government.

It's just I hate all extremists, whether they are "anti-Japanese", Muslim extremists (like that nonse Abdul Hamza preeching on our streets to kill the British), or "Animal-rights" extremists, like this tosser who stole a Rabbit from a magician a few weeks back and let it into the wild, what a nob-head, the Rabbit will be killed by others since it is tame. All extremists can go bugger off all I care.

Hatred of any kind makes you an extremist too. Moderation and understanding are the keys to approaching these issues.

The sod-off bit was, if I was representing Japan, I would say to these "anti-Japanese" extremists, they need a life rather than protest about a book that isn't published and will be accepted by a handfull of Japanese schools, you heard a handfull.

As I said, it'd be harder to dismiss people's feelings like that if you could meet them in person. They have other grievances besides the textbook. That was just a catalyst, opening the valve on years of pent-up anger at the Japanese.

I'm not defending the Chinese government. But I believe that the poor who were affected by the Japanese invasion years ago and have still not received an honest hearing from Japan are not the ones at fault here.

Well done, for putting this info in. You deserve a bucket load of Brownie Points! Kudos. I couldn't have said it better myself, I guess the textbooks in our schools will have some sort of "whitewashing" somewhere!

I think Desslar will agree that simply because every nation has its problems doesn't mean it's OK to sit back and ignore them.

[zmanjz]

ok, this one IS getting out of hand.


Closed.