Sony in trouble (patent infrintement+dualshock+stuff)

[Nimbleness]

Technically Sony Computer Entertainment, but who's keeping track(?).

LOS ANGELES — The U.S. District Court in Oakland, California, has ordered Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. and its U.S. unit to pay $90.7 million in damages to Immersion Corp. for patent infringement over controllers used with PlayStation game consoles. In the ruling handed down Thursday, the federal court also ordered Sony Computer Entertainment and Sony Entertainment America Inc. to stop selling the PlayStation and PlayStation 2 game consoles using Dualshock controllers as well as more than 40 game software products. Japan Today (http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=4&id=332037) via Elite Bastards (http://www.elitebastards.com)

I Guess that leaves Nintendo next ,but doesn't seem like they're interested in them. Looks like Sony should've taken after Microsoft. Link (http://www.freep.com/entertainment/videogames/gbits16e_20050116.htm) in case your wondering.

[Dark Fact]

What in the heck???

Tell me this is all a big fat joke! :eek:

[Jon Hanson]

Whoa, I wonder if they have a legitimate case, because if they do Sony is in for a world of hurry. My one question is why this suit wasn't filed earlier.

[Dark Fact]

Sony won't take this lying down. They've come too far with their PS2 only to have it pulled now.

[Nimbleness]

It was. I added some stuff in to help clear things up.

[Nin-Nin69]

APRIL FOOLS lollercopter! :D:D:D:D:D

[Dark Fact]

APRIL FOOLS lollercopter!

April Fool's isn't for an entire week! :mad:

[Artimus Gigan]

April Fool's isn't for an entire week, you FOOL!!! :mad:That's what makes it funny

Nobody Expects and Early April Fool's Joke

[Martianinvader]

I don't believe that either; show me another link.

[Wilco911]

I read elsewhere that Microsoft was also a defendaint in the case alongside Sony, until they settled out of court for 26 million. Apperently after that they went and bought stock in Immerson.

[Dark Fact]

That's what makes it funny

Nobody Expects and Early April Fool's Joke

What does that make April Fool's day then? Chopped liver?

[Artimus Gigan]

What does that make April Fool's day then? Chopped liver?No, it makes it expected

If only the Aztecs had realised this, Cortez wouldn't have gotten the jump on them

Atleast much later in history, Kahmehameha realised this and kicked Captain Cook's ass and unified the islands

[Dark Fact]

Why are you comparing childish pranks to sneak attacks in wars?

[Artimus Gigan]

Why are you comparing childish pranks to sneak attacks in wars?
Shock Value=Sell

[Dark Fact]

Shock Value=Sell

If I want shock value, I'll watch a courtroom drama, NYPD Blue, or any japanese horror flick. If I want to do something funny, I'll tell a joke. I don't need to embarass other people's intelligence just to get my jollies.

[EinBebop]

I don't need to embarass other people's intelligence just to get my jollies.Neither do I, but it's nice to know the option's there when I want a quick jolly.

Although the 'you FOOL' remark seems out of line for someone who has issues with attacks on intelligence.

[Dark Fact]

Although the 'you FOOL' remark seems out of line for someone who has issues with attacks on intelligence.

Point taken. I'll get around to modifying that.

[Nimbleness]

I read elsewhere that Microsoft was also a defendaint in the case alongside Sony, until they settled out of court for 26 million. Apperently after that they went and bought stock in Immerson. Yeah, there's been a couple different figures reported. According to the press release (http://www.shareholder.com/Common/Edgar/1058811/1157523-05-1581/05-00.pdf) (pdf) the final settlement ended up being 82 million.

[Chad Bonin]

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D893OTH80.htm?campaign_id=apn_tech_down

I've heard this at a few places; if it turns out to be a striking blow against Sony, preventing them from making the Dual Shock, I wonder how this'll effect the PS3. There's probably enough rumble-enabled controllers out there to last the run of the PS2, and they could easily release a dual-shockless iteration to fill in the controller void... but that'd suck.

Or it'd be funny to see Sony freak out.

[Invader_Spooch]

Tons of money+Massive Legal Power=Settle Out of Court.

They're Sony. It won't phase them one bit.

[Charlie]

I'm sure Sony will fight it and then probably settle out of cort like Microsoft, minus the buying 10% of stake in Immersion Corps. (http://www.macworld.com/news/2003/07/29/msimmersion/)

[fuchikoma]

I wish this could bring an end to vibrating controllers since they are annoying and I have no interest in seeing the early onset of carpal tunnel syndrome in children who have grown up with such gamepads.

[Matt-a-Tastic]

So... um, are they saying that the rumble is damaging peoples healf or summat

[Mr Cat Dog]

Or it'd be funny to see Sony freak out.Somehow, I don't see that one on the cards one bit. This really won't affect Sony much, an out-of-court settlement for a large amount of money, then they'll be back making stuff like nothing had ever happened.

[Killtacular]

They'll just take the vibration out and call it something else. Who cares. The vibration adds nothing to the game experience these days.

[SSJPabs]

Snipped because of Knux Five's discussion on the Dual Shock: Banned? thread. I think I [and Reuters] had the better title though. Anyhow I guess discuss there.

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=619259


Sony Ordered to Halt PlayStation Sales


Reuters

Mar. 28, 2005 - Sony Corp. <6758.T> said on Monday it was ordered by a U.S. court to halt sales of its blockbuster PlayStation consoles in the United States and pay $90 million in damages to a California tech company, Immersion Corp. <IMMR.O>, whose shares jumped more then 5 percent. Sony Computer Entertainment (SCE), Sony's gaming unit, said it would appeal the decision by a California federal court in the patent infringement case.

[Batman's Biggest Fan]

Damn. Sony is about to lose a lot of money.

[fuchikoma]

I can just imagine how this is playing out in the Japanese media if they are reporting it at all. The big bad American conglomerate, Immersion, picking on the little Japanese company, Sony, who just wanted to make people happy. The Japanese refuse to take responsibility for ill deeds and will paint themself as the victim when they are the victimizer such as the time Japanese corporations were caught stealing trade secrets from IBM I believe it was.

[Wilco911]

Copy&Pasted from that Yahoo article also about this.

The district court decision included an order to suspend PlayStation sales, but that order does not hold while an appeal is being heard. Sony will continue to sell its game machines in the United States, the spokesman said.

[Weatherman]

*looks up* Ok, someone seems to be on a fast track to nowhere around here. :rolleyes:


Seeign as the order is on hold pending appeal, this wont chaneg anything, but it's still a major hit for Sony no matetr how it's played right now.

[Sketch]

This wont stop Sony of course. But it serves 'em right for these few years when the PS2 got much more attention than the poor Xbox and GCN.

[Lord Dalek]

This means little but it's good to see the "invincible" sony get shot down for once.

[silverwings]

Serves Sony right. They got too big for their britches, and I love seeing giants fall. :D Course, it's a terrible way to go, but such is business.

My question would be, does this affect future consoles (like the ps3)?

[James]

This wont stop Sony of course. But it serves 'em right for these few years when the PS2 got much more attention than the poor Xbox and GCN. Has anyone read the article? How does that make any sense whatsoever? This is a dispute over technological infringement, it has nothing to with Karma which seems to be the way most here are taking it.

They remove the vibration technology and move on (pending on how they appeal). Worst case, the Vibration is removed and they continue selling. I hardly think vibration sells games these days. May have in 1999, but not anymore.

This just seems like a gloat fest - which is all fine, providing people keep SOME grounding in what they are gloating about. :p

[solarflere]

Its only for PlayStation and PlayStation 2 and 47 software titles not PSP, and that is not that bad at this point.

Immersion, a California-based developer of digital touch technologies, claimed Sony Computer Entertainment infringed on its technology that makes a game controller vibrate in sync with actions in games, the Japanese game maker said.

The $US90 million awarded by the court is more than triple Immersion's total revenues of $US23.8 million in 2004 and represents two-thirds of the company's current market value of around $135 million.

[Speedy Boris]

Who cares. The vibration adds nothing to the game experience these days. I wish this could bring an end to vibrating controllers since they are annoying and I have no interest in seeing the early onset of carpal tunnel syndrome in children who have grown up with such gamepads. Yeah, the vibration was a cool novelty when it came out, but after a few years it got old. Half the time, I just play with the vibration off, because it either adds nothing to the experience (e.g. most platform games) or is annoying (e.g. most fighting games).

Really, the only games which come to mind that made good use of the Dual Shock rumbles were Metal Gear Solid 2 and, of all games, Turbo Prop Racing. You actually felt like you were on the water.

In contrast, the X-Box controller's vibration is so subtle that it actually works. Halo, in particular, makes a good use of the rumbles without going over the top.

[SNS]

Yeah, the vibration was a cool novelty when it came out, but after a few years it got old.
While I would admit that it isn't as cool as when it was new, I wouldn't agree with it getting old (it just feels like a natural part of gaming to me now & I would hate to lose it).

[Invader_Spooch]

This wont stop Sony of course. But it serves 'em right for these few years when the PS2 got much more attention than the poor Xbox and GCN.*world's smallest violin*

Because it's totally Sony's fault why the Gamecube doesn't sell well, and has nothing to do with piss-poor marketing, lack of 3rd party support, small library of games (with a limited selection), and the refusal to give the average American consumer what they want (BTW, reguardless of what you may think, Nintendo fans are NOT in the majority). Blame Nintendo and the gaming public for why they fail, if anything.

Textbook "wah serves Sony right, they are killing Nintendo" response.

And I don't know why the XBOX was even brought up, seeing as it's doing quite well stateside.

Serves Sony right. They got too big for their britches, and I love seeing giants fall. :D Course, it's a terrible way to go, but such is business.
Right, because Sony sure is falling. If this is what did them in as a company, then they're in really weak shape to begin with.

[SSJPabs]

*Right, because Sony sure is falling. If this is what did them in as a company, then they're in really weak shape to begin with.Well the SONY brand has weakened considerably in the last 5-6 years and their market share falling in most of thier various enterprises. The game business was the jewel (some might say the only old-skool SONY success as with the Walkman) in SONY's crown.

While this won't make Sony fall, this does hurt their strongest (relatively speaking at least) area which is something they did not need.

Also for the record I'm use to vibration and if it weren't there I know many games that would feel decidedly odd without it and I think it actually does improve a few games (note: a few).

[William C. Maune]

Well the SONY brand has weakened considerably in the last 5-6 years and their market share falling in most of thier various enterprises. The game business was the jewel (some might say the only old-skool SONY success as with the Walkman) in SONY's crown.

Yep, despite all the different areas Sony is involved in, video games make up 44% of the companies profits. While many of its other areas are slumping, their video game division has had to carry the weight. Thus, anything that hits the video game division is going to hit the company hard.

That being said, the judge immediately put the injunction on hold upon issuing it, pending Sony's appeal. Ultimately, Sony will likely settle the case, but likely still pay a hefty, but undisclosed, some of money in the process.

[Tommy Lawson]

Yep, despite all the different areas Sony is involved in, video games make up 44% of the companies profits. While many of its other areas are slumping, their video game division has had to carry the weight. Thus, anything that hits the video game division is going to hit the company hard.

That being said, the judge immediately put the injunction on hold upon issuing it, pending Sony's appeal. Ultimately, Sony will likely settle the case, but likely still pay a hefty, but undisclosed, some of money in the process. Realistically, by the time this actually gets to a final, absolute decision, it will likely be far less of a fine to Sony, the Playstation 3 will be out in the market replacing the PS2 console, and I'm guessing non-rumble wireless controllers will be included with the PS3 system. If Sony doesn't settle, I'm not expecting the decision to be not to allow PS1 and PS2 to ever be sold again. I wouldn't be surprised to hear Sony announce a $99 PS2 console without the rumble feature at E3 and just continue selling their systems.

[Sketch]

*world's smallest violin*

Because it's totally Sony's fault why the Gamecube doesn't sell well, and has nothing to do with piss-poor marketing, lack of 3rd party support, small library of games (with a limited selection), and the refusal to give the average American consumer what they want (BTW, reguardless of what you may think, Nintendo fans are NOT in the majority). Blame Nintendo and the gaming public for why they fail, if anything.

Xbox is still behind Playstation 2 by quite a bit and the GCN is usually not far away from Xbox. And in Japan Xbox is doing horribly... Really the only place Xbox is a good competition is in the US (for obvious reasons). GCN does quite well in Japan and the UK among other places. But the reason I bring up Xbox as well is because both GCN and Xbox suffered from a lack of 3rd party games because PS2 got most of the third party support.

Well Sony did get a year on the GCN and Xbox and because of this Sony dominated the market entirely.

3rd party support was mostly on PS2 because more people had it. And more people had it because it came out first. While this wasn't that big of a deal overall... Nintendo and Microsoft typically just got the left-overs when Sony was done with them. So MS and Nintendo had to work up a good library of first party and 2nd party titles. I believe they both did well on this front. Sony's always gets a bone thrown to them but MS and Nintendo have to work harder for that same bone. It was genius for Nintendo to let Namco borrow Link for SC. Nintendo knew how to get a piece of the pie that time. However Sony still hold the market share so they'll continue to get the most bones.

I fail to see what's wrong with Nintendo marketing. I think their commericals are pretty good entertainment... And Xbox's commericals are awesome (they're almost better than the system itself). Nintendo is more family friendly overall and thus it gets the title "kiddy" but is it so wrong to make family friendly games? Must all games be "mature"? I don't see Ratchet and Clank or Jack and Daxster getting so much flack. I don't even see Sonic getting as much flack as Nintendo does in general. Not every game should be edgy for the sake of being that way. Variety is the spice of life.

Of course Nintendo fans aren't the majority. I never said they were. It's a fleeting group indeed. Sony owned this generation console war simple as that.

Perhaps you consider me merely a Nintendo fanboy. Yes I love Nintendo but I also love Sega and Rare (well at least I did... until they started putting out crap. But Conker looks promisign). Really it comes down to this... I freak'n hate Sony and their freak'n Playstation. And yet... I have one just so I can play some games I'll never get on GCN. I bought Budokai II for PS2 only to find out that several months late a GCN version would be coming out. I would have waited if I had known that. It's one thing to have a month, two month even three month wait between releases but for a game not to get ported until a year after the PS2 version... That's just bad for business. Not many people who wanted wouldn't have the PS2 version by then. This is what pissed me off about SCIII being a PS2 exclusive.

Back on topic...

I don't expect any little thing like this to stop Sony. Not at all. But let me enjoy my moment dang it!!!

[SuperSaiyaMan]

Dual Shocked: Sony Immersed in $90.7 million fine, injunction

http://www.gamespot.com/b.gif
US District Court favors San Jose tech company Immersion; Sony injunction to halt American sales of PS2s and affected materials.

Three years ago, Northern California technology company Immersion Corporation brought a suit (http://www.gamespot.com/news/2002/02/12/news_2847302.html) against Sony Computer Entertainment and Microsoft Corporation claiming patent infringement of its proprietary technology used in the controllers for the companies' home consoles: the PlayStation, PlayStation 2, and Xbox.

http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/Ads/common/advertisement.gif
http://adlog.com.com/adlog/i/r=7027&s=591965&t=2005.03.30.17.12.48&o=1:&h=pi&p=2&b=4&l=En_US&&site=6/http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/Ads/2443/10/Ad-300-250.gif (http://adlog.com.com/adlog/c/r=7027&s=591965&t=2005.03.30.17.12.48&o=1:&h=pi&p=2&b=4&l=En_US&&site=6/http://www.advertisingingames.com/)

Microsoft settled (http://www.gamespot.com/news/2003/07/29/news_6072673.html) out of court with Immersion in 2003, avoiding messy legal proceedings for $26 million, which also got Microsoft a 10 percent stake in Immersion.

Sony, on the other hand, left the decision up to the courts, a move that appears to have cost the company a serious chunk of change. Last Thursday, United States District Judge Claudia Wilken ordered the electronics giant to pay Immersion $90.7 million in patent infringement damages. The fine stems from the $82 million awarded to Immersion by a jury's decision (http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/09/23/news_6108298.html) on September 21, 2004, plus prejudgement interest of $8.7 million tacked on last week, which Sony unsuccessfully objected to.

The tiff involves Immersion's technology that creates the "rumble" feature that causes controllers to vibrate in sync with events in games. The court found in favor of Immersion's claims that Sony's Dual Shock controllers, the standard sticks for Sony's PlayStation and PlayStation 2, and several of its games infringe on two of its patents.

The Oakland, California, court also ordered an injunction stating that Sony is to immediately stop selling the PlayStation, PlayStation 2, both versions of the Dual Shock controllers, and 47 games found to use the vibration technology, including Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3, Grand Theft Auto: Vice City, and Gran Turismo 3. The injunction only affects sales in the United States.

Sony immediately appealed the decision and has been granted a stay of permanent injunction, allowing Sony to sell its products as normal during the appeals process. However, Sony will have to pay a licensing fee to Immersion for the duration of the stay.

By Tim Surette -- GameSpot (http://www.gamespot.com/)
This is bad for Sony...good news for everyone else;)

[Mog]

Give me one good, logical reason why this is good for anyone. Microsoft already paid, Sony has lost there battle but will appeal and probably come out on top, and Nintendo has yet to be targeted. I see nothing good about this. I have yet to see why the hell Immersion has gotten any money.

You know what would be funny. If the porn industry turned around and sued Immersion for stealing their "idea" of vibrating objects. Please. This is stupid.

[SuperSaiyaMan]

Give me one good, logical reason why this is good for anyone. Microsoft already paid, Sony has lost there battle but will appeal and probably come out on top, and Nintendo has yet to be targeted. I see nothing good about this. I have yet to see why the hell Immersion has gotten any money.

You know what would be funny. If the porn industry turned around and sued Immersion for stealing their "idea" of vibrating objects. Please. This is stupid.It was meant to be a joke on the last part. Oh, and Nintendo developed their own rumble technology back in the N64 era, and just improved on it.

Edit: Would YOU buy from thieves?

[Artimus Gigan]

Edit: Would YOU buy from thieves?People have no problem buying pirated software which then in turn jacks up the price of the original copies, which in turn make the companies add higher costs just to turn a fortable profit.

besides a patent infringement really isn't theavery, considering they have to pay licencing fees

so both were righted...or whatever

[RAINMAN]

So why did they wated 10 years to do this insted of PS1 era? Some people would do whatever it takes to make money.

[Chris Wood]

This doesn't mean anything until Sony actually signs a check. I'm sure the court battle is far from over.

[Rook]

its probably more of an act of revenge against SONY for the sake of just hating them...

[Noukon]

Nintendo has yet to be targeted.
Nintendo has been paying licensing fees to Immersion from the beginning. Both Nintendo and Microsoft are also shareholders in Immersion.

[fuchikoma]

I haven't read anything definitive on why Nintendo has not been targeted but I sure have read a lot of speculation.

People have no problem buying pirated software which then in turn jacks up the price of the original copies, which in turn make the companies add higher costs just to turn a fortable profit.
Console games are still $50 a piece new and sometimes less.

[Noukon]

I haven't read anything definitive on why Nintendo has not been targeted but I sure have read a lot of speculation.
As I said in the post right above yours, Nintendo has paid licensing fees from the beginning, and, additionally, is a shareholder in Immersion. They won't ever need to be "targeted."

[SNS]

So why did they wated 10 years to do this insted of PS1 era?It would be impossible to sue them 10 years ago considering that the PS1 wasn't released with Duel Shock, it was introduced years later.

[Punisher]

All this really means is PS3 won't get rumble, and that doesn't matter because rumbling usually adds nothing to the gaming experience.

[Beat]

Rumble was standard feature in this generation's console's, but depending on the case, that probably won't happen next generation.

I will miss the occasional rumble though.

[fuchikoma]

As I said in the post right above yours, Nintendo has paid licensing fees from the beginning, and, additionally, is a shareholder in Immersion. They won't ever need to be "targeted."
The proof is in the pudding. Where is your pudding? I have heard this rumor before except for the part that Nintendo is a shareholder. The only company that is known for a fact to be a shareholder is Microsoft. Another rumor I have heard is the N64 rumble pak uses different technology from the technology Immersion patented and the force feedback in the GC controller is based on the rumble pak technology so Nintendo is in the clear. Yet another rumor I have heard is that Nintendo's patent on the rumble pak would nullify Immersion's patent if Immersion tried to take Nintendo to court.

It would be impossible to sue them 10 years ago considering that the PS1 wasn't released with Duel Shock, it was introduced years later.
If you check Immersion's patents they were issued a few years after the dual shock controller was introduced.

[Noukon]

The proof is in the pudding. Where is your pudding? I have heard this rumor before except for the part that Nintendo is a shareholder. The only company that is known for a fact to be a shareholder is Microsoft.
I read about Nintendo's involvement with Immersion in a mainstream news article, but since I don't really keep complete tabs on all of the news articles I read, I don't have a link or anything. You can feel free to not believe me.

[Chad Bonin]

http://www.nintendojo.com/infocus/view_item.php?1142316282

Wow, one year later.

Nintendo, someway or another, has avoided infringing on this patent (probably due to their creating it first from scratch, unlike those that copied them and Immersion). Microsoft now pays a fee to Immersion.

Sony, what'll you do?

[Captain Harlock]

http://www.nintendojo.com/infocus/view_item.php?1142316282

Wow, one year later.

Nintendo, someway or another, has avoided infringing on this patent (probably due to their creating it first from scratch, unlike those that copied them and Immersion). Microsoft now pays a fee to Immersion.

Sony, what'll you do?
Nintendo avoided it because they don't use a dual motor, while Sony and Microsoft do. Microsoft threw their money around early and settled out of court, buying a part of the company. Sony tried using their legal muscle and failed, so they'll most likely do a big payment.

Rumble/Vibration is one of the dumbest implimentations in console history. It should be done away with anyways.