Don't Push. Warning: Rant!! Enter at Own Peril

[guinaevere]

I'm most likely going to come across as extremely unlikable in this thread. And I'm sorry, because I don't enjoy being that way. But, just as it's impossible to go through life without ever hurting someone's feelings simply by being an honest person, it's nearly impossible for me not to explode in frustration if I don't soapbox rant.


Usually, I'm able to handle this sort of thing fairly well when it comes up. But lately, the growing numbers of guy friends in my life who are consistantly pushing the boundaries of my friendship are taking their toll. And I have to admit to myself that I'm sick of it. I no longer wish to deal with it in my usual way, as clearly, my way is not effective.

When I say 'I have to admit to myself,' this is accurate. I generally prefer to go through life with the attitude that for the most part, no big deals are no big deals. The sun still shines. I wake up each day in a free country with a roof over my head... life is good. But as of the past couple weeks, I am officially worn out. I've been snapping at, and complaining to friends whom may be comforting, but not in anyway helpful to complain to.

Part of what I believe life is about is taking ones' experiences and learning from, and being able to share these with the hope that others may learn as well. So forgive me, but I'm going to give a lesson to some of you guys out there, whether you want/like/need it or not. Probably, most of you fall into the "not" catagory. But an unwilling audience hasn't stopped me yet.


:goes up to blackboard:
Today's Lesson is: "Don't Push!"


All through my life, I've had a lot of guy friends. Maybe because I was a tom-boy as a little girl. Maybe because it's because I was very close to my Dad & my two brothers, and never had a sister. Maybe because I'm allergic to Bath & Body Work shops. I don't know. But, as many girl friends as I've had over the years, I must have had three times as many guy friends. Quite honestly, this has never been a problem in the past.

For some (to me) inexplicable reason, over the past 6 or 7 months, I've found that in both online and real life relationships, I have to spend more and more time explaining that when I said, "I like you as a friend," I meant just that. A friend. No more.


My girl friend Natalie thinks it's because people misunderstand my intentions. I always try to support people and friends. "great job, Rebeccah!" "You're my hero, Clinton!" That's how I am. It's important in this world to encourage those around you. If you and I don't embolden others to be the best they can be, who will?

But words of encouragment are not code for: Let's run off and start a new life together. I tend to think most people would agree with me. Natalie feels guys hear these words differently. I dunno.


So. Back to guys and pushing. "What's it all about, Gwen?" you ask.


Guys, say you have a friend who happens to be female. Say you happen to dig her beyond the typical confines of friendship. Say you let slip that she's special to you. Or you flat-out confess your undying love & devotion to her. Or, more likely, you've admitted something in between. It doesn't matter where you fall, let's just say you have swung the raquet of love, and now the ball is in her court.

This is not about the girl who hits back a ball of returning adoration.


This is about the girl who rejects your advance. Either in plain english, "Ew a yucky boy!!! Stay away!!" or by deftly avoiding a confrontation. I beg of you, on behalf of all womankind, Be a Gentleman, and LET IT GO! What is infuriatingly rude, disgustingly manipulative and completely inexcusable is the idea that the girl somehow owes YOU a sort of explination, when all she ever claimed to be was your friend.

If I can be anymore blunt, here it is. She owes you no reason, no explination, no logic, no timeline for when she may be interested in you. Nothing. A person, no matter how hard they try, can not make themselves be attracted to, or interested in another person. And more importantly, nor should they be asked to try!

That is not the behavior of a friend. It's selfish, and completely without any consideration or regard to the other person. As I say, not the behavior of a friend.


Similar to a few online instances, I've got 2 friends that I quite honestly have no interest in hanging out with anymore, because the entire time, I'm made to feel as if it's wrong of me for not being attracted to them. Or alternately, I'm looked to to walk around on eggshells, soothing their wounded egos. So, I sit there, pretending everything is fine, that I'm happy and having a grand time, when I'm completely miserable. And all that repeats in my head is, what is the incentive for me to continue these friendships?

I don't mean to be so selfish. I know friendships are a give and take relationship. I have no problem with that what so ever.

But these friendships have become so distorted from the framework of what they once where, that they're unhealthy. So much so that I wind up with a nice headache, with a side of nauseua and get to finish it off with lost sleep (terrific bonus for an insomniac).


Now, I do know heartbreak, and I sympathize with anyone who has ever suffered unrequited love. It sucks. It does. I'm not denying this fact, or the pain the two instances bring.


And writing this, I feel I must be some self-centered ogre to complain that I'm the desire of anyone. I can't understand those who live their lives where everything that happens to them is a huge drama. I'm not like that. I live my little life, work, meet people, hang out, take care of my Mum, play video games, watch animation, make jokes about myself and go to bed. The idea that I have a handful of guy friends who consistantly push the boundaries of my friendship (either out-right or subtly) despite my blatantly telling them, "No. Thank you" would be flattering, were it not for the unsound direction these relationships have taken, and their ultimately fraying my mental state.

Hammering and pushing someone because they don't return your affections does nothing but drive the other person away.

And if a girl is interested, she's got a mouth. She'll let you know. These aren't Victorian or pre-Victorian times. As crazy as we may be as a gender, we are very well equipped for expressing our feelings. As irrational as they may be.



Right.

I needed to get this out for a number of reasons. Anyone who so desires, blast away. I need any sort of feedback you may have. As stinky as I feel having to write these feelings and problems out to be seen here, I suspect I'll feel even stinkier delivering this message in person.


The ironic thing is, many of the women at the Center were never brought up to recognize that they can be friends with men without having to provide romantic favors for them. This is one of my lessons to them, and it's one that almost always makes an enormous difference in at least one of our ladies' lives.

Why is it that when I tell a friend this, they behave as if I hadn't meant it or challenge my reason for rejecting them?!

"My feelings are a fact, not a personal delusion. They are valid for me. What business have you got trying to tell me how I ought to feel?"
--Barbara Michaels Mertz
--Borrower of the Night

[Stewie]

*checks testosterone at the door*
Don't blame guys for being guys. We're built this way. And it's women's fault for being so cute.

Honestly though, if your male friends are "constantly pushing", then they are not Men. Not taking a hint, or trying to turn a friend into oh-so-much-more is one thing. But not accepting boundaries is unseemly.

As for friends trying to take it up a notch, I give you one of the Axioms of Manhood: Every woman can be everything to you.

[Weatherman]

Bera with me as I'm probably gonna pick this one apart piece b ypiece. I've been in situations that either were similar to what you're describing or were viewed that way by a third party, though obviously I was on the other side of the picture.

I'm most likely going to come across as extremely unlikable in this thread. And I'm sorry, because I don't enjoy being that way. But, just as it's impossible to go through life without ever hurting someone's feelings simply by being an honest person, it's nearly impossible for me not to explode in frustration if I don't soapbox rant.


Usually, I'm able to handle this sort of thing fairly well when it comes up. But lately, the growing numbers of guy friends in my life who are consistantly pushing the boundaries of my friendship are taking their toll. And I have to admit to myself that I'm sick of it. I no longer wish to deal with it in my usual way, as clearly, my way is not effective.

When I say 'I have to admit to myself,' this is accurate. I generally prefer to go through life with the attitude that for the most part, no big deals are no big deals. The sun still shines. I wake up each day in a free country with a roof over my head... life is good. But as of the past couple weeks, I am officially worn out. I've been snapping at, and complaining to friends whom may be comforting, but not in anyway helpful to complain to.

Part of what I believe life is about is taking ones' experiences and learning from, and being able to share these with the hope that others may learn as well. So forgive me, but I'm going to give a lesson to some of you guys out there, whether you want/like/need it or not. Probably, most of you fall into the "not" catagory. But an unwilling audience hasn't stopped me yet.


:goes up to blackboard:
Today's Lesson is: "Don't Push!"


All through my life, I've had a lot of guy friends. Maybe because I was a tom-boy as a little girl. Maybe because it's because I was very close to my Dad & my two brothers, and never had a sister. Maybe because I'm allergic to Bath & Body Work shops. I don't know. But, as many girl friends as I've had over the years, I must have had three times as many guy friends. Quite honestly, this has never been a problem in the past.

For some (to me) inexplicable reason, over the past 6 or 7 months, I've found that in both online and real life relationships, I have to spend more and more time explaining that when I said, "I like you as a friend," I meant just that. A friend. No more.


My girl friend Natalie thinks it's because people misunderstand my intentions. I always try to support people and friends. "great job, Rebeccah!" "You're my hero, Clinton!" That's how I am. It's important in this world to encourage those around you. If you and I don't embolden others to be the best they can be, who will?

But words of encouragment are not code for: Let's run off and start a new life together. I tend to think most people would agree with me. Natalie feels guys hear these words differently. I dunno.


So. Back to guys and pushing. "What's it all about, Gwen?" you ask.


Guys, say you have a friend who happens to be female. Say you happen to dig her beyond the typical confines of friendship. Say you let slip that she's special to you. Or you flat-out confess your undying love & devotion to her. Or, more likely, you've admitted something in between. It doesn't matter where you fall, let's just say you have swung the raquet of love, and now the ball is in her court.

This is not about the girl who hits back a ball of returning adoration.


This is about the girl who rejects your advance. Either in plain english, "Ew a yucky boy!!! Stay away!!" or by deftly avoiding a confrontation. I beg of you, on behalf of all womankind, Be a Gentleman, and LET IT GO! What is infuriatingly rude, disgustingly manipulative and completely inexcusable is the idea that the girl somehow owes YOU a sort of explination, when all she ever claimed to be was your friend.
"Ew a yucky boy!!":confused: Somehow I don't see any girl who has guy friends coming up with a line like that.:p

And how is it manipulative to simply want to know why? And I don't mean continualy hounding someone till they break down and say it as that never gets to the real reason why the girl/woman said no in the first place. What I mean is a simple explination beyond "I just don't like you in that way." An explination like that only breeds more questions and uncomfortable situations.


If I can be anymore blunt, here it is. She owes you no reason, no explination, no logic, no timeline for when she may be interested in you. Nothing. A person, no matter how hard they try, can not make themselves be attracted to, or interested in another person. And more importantly, nor should they be asked to try!

That is not the behavior of a friend. It's selfish, and completely without any consideration or regard to the other person. As I say, not the behavior of a friend.
I can't speak for the guys who have been pushing you as they've acted well beyond anything I ever did, but if they're willing to act in a mature manner and accept that it's just not going to happen in that way, I would think some kind of rational agreement could be reached about what is and is not ging to happen and why said things are the way they are. An information vacum only breeds bad things.


Similar to a few online instances, I've got 2 friends that I quite honestly have no interest in hanging out with anymore, because the entire time, I'm made to feel as if it's wrong of me for not being attracted to them. Or alternately, I'm looked to to walk around on eggshells, soothing their wounded egos. So, I sit there, pretending everything is fine, that I'm happy and having a grand time, when I'm completely miserable. And all that repeats in my head is, what is the incentive for me to continue these friendships?

I don't mean to be so selfish. I know friendships are a give and take relationship. I have no problem with that what so ever.

But these friendships have become so distorted from the framework of what they once where, that they're unhealthy. So much so that I wind up with a nice headache, with a side of nauseua and get to finish it off with lost sleep (terrific bonus for an insomniac).


Now, I do know heartbreak, and I sympathize with anyone who has ever suffered unrequited love. It sucks. It does. I'm not denying this fact, or the pain the two instances bring.


And writing this, I feel I must be some self-centered ogre to complain that I'm the desire of anyone. I can't understand those who live their lives where everything that happens to them is a huge drama. I'm not like that. I live my little life, work, meet people, hang out, take care of my Mum, play video games, watch animation, make jokes about myself and go to bed. The idea that I have a handful of guy friends who consistantly push the boundaries of my friendship (either out-right or subtly) despite my blatantly telling them, "No. Thank you" would be flattering, were it not for the unsound direction these relationships have taken, and their ultimately fraying my mental state.

Hammering and pushing someone because they don't return your affections does nothing but drive the other person away.

And if a girl is interested, she's got a mouth. She'll let you know. These aren't Victorian or pre-Victorian times. As crazy as we may be as a gender, we are very well equipped for expressing our feelings. As irrational as they may be.
True, she does have a mouth, but alot of guys have a tendancy to view the women in their lives a female versions of themelves in some way, and that includes the tendacy of alot of guys to hide their feelings about someone till it gets to be too much to hold in and it all comes spilling out rapidly. And I personally know some girls and women who just aren't very good at expessing their emotions. A blanket statement like th one you made isn't good way to sum up what I see you're trying to say as it just paints every guy and gal with the same brush, missing the underlying details that make every situation different.


Right.

I needed to get this out for a number of reasons. Anyone who so desires, blast away. I need any sort of feedback you may have. As stinky as I feel having to write these feelings and problems out to be seen here, I suspect I'll feel even stinkier delivering this message in person.

The ironic thing is, many of the women at the Center were never brought up to recognize that they can be friends with men without having to provide romantic favors for them. This is one of my lessons to them, and it's one that almost always makes an enormous difference in at least one of our ladies' lives.

Why is it that when I tell a friend this, they behave as if I hadn't meant it or challenge my reason for rejecting them?!

"My feelings are a fact, not a personal delusion. They are valid for me. What business have you got trying to tell me how I ought to feel?"
--Barbara Michaels Mertz
--Borrower of the Night

Good luck in delivering that message, but I highly doubt it's going to turn out the way you want it to if you go in with the attitude and preconceptions that you've stated here. It's probably just going to turn into a really ugly situation with a lot of hurt feelings and destroyed relationships. I would highly advise that you take a moment to settle yourself down before doing this and if you start to feel frustrated when talking to them just step back and take a few deep breaths. Don't let a bad situation spiral out of control into a worse one.

You're not a "self-centered ogre". but you have obviously been hurt by what has happened and you're acting very defesively as a result of that pain. I'm gonna wrap this up by saying remember, they'e in as much emotional pain as you are right now. If you're all lucky enough, you'll all be able to handle this maturely without it turning into a massive disaster, but it's going to require alot of patience on your part and theirs to let people say what they have to say.

[Martianinvader]

I really don't know how so many girls can still be oblivious to this fact...

...but when a guy offers to be a girl's friend and do things for her...nine times out of ten he really means "I want to be your friend at the moment, but I'm really doing it because you're hot and I want to get closer so we can fall in love." Seriously, if a guy walks up to you and he's being all friendly, no matter who he is...HE WANTS YOU!! DUH!! ALWAYS expect that from now on. It's the universal truth.

But maybe you can answer a question for me, Gwen...do girls ever have the same fantasy? Do they ever try to get chummy with a boy and secretly dream that the boy will ultimately be charmed with her and fall in love? Or is it only men who do that, and since women can't figure it out, men are all doomed to fail?

[Ben]

I understand what you're saying, though I'm not entirely with you on the "it's all their fault" line. Sometimes relationships just have to end when the parties involved realize they had different expectations going in, and neither person is in the wrong because of that, frustrating as it is. "Get over it, let's just be friends" is not an easy thing for most people. It's fair to say the most difficult friend-relationship in my life was with someone where one of us was in that situation relative to the other. It has worked out in the end and we're better friends because of it, but it took literally years of long nights and a lot of tears to get there. Neither of us blames the other. Just as you said, you can't make yourself be attracted to someone, but that person can't make himself be un-attracted to you. I wonder if that made any sense.

Anyway, what I'm saying is "Let's just be friends" and magical poof everything's good just doesn't seem... normal. What's normal is 1) you're done being friends or 2) you work through it and it takes effort and time before you can be friends again.

[krazymed]

Thanks for the advice, guinaevere. If I ever have a female friend, I will seriously take this into consideration.

[SSJPabs]

Heh, and here I was going to ask if it was okay if I didn't worship the ground you walk on :p

Anyhow, yeah that can be tough. I however, generally agree with Martianinvader. It's wrong though, it works MUCH better if you become friends with a girl to date her FRIENDS as opposed to dating HER. Anyhow, I also submit for your reading pleasure (and to prove my male chauvinism I guess) The Ladder Theory (http://www.intellectualwhores.com/masterladder.html). Do I subscribe to the Ladder Theory... not entirely.

[James]

The blame mainly falls with Hollywood. It presents this image that after a few adventures a friendship matures into love more often than it doesn't. It likes to show casts slowly moving from friends to love (mainly because the viewers demand that fantasy). The sad thing is, the viewers - and society - start to expect it to happen in real life, and get very frustrated when it doesn't happen.

I hear a lot of whining on the net about girls not liking said people, as if somehow life is expected to hand over on a platter the lady that said guy choices. It doesn't happen like that.

I think boys get so caught up in this fantasy hope, that friendship will blossom into romance, so much they end up not looking further a field and waste time lingering hoping and expecting that suddenly their feelings will be reciprocated. That's a great pity as in the end it just builds up the issue when it does finally boil over.

Now I'm not knocking such guys. A lot of them aren't nasty people, often it's insecurity or an inability to read people which leads them to making this Hollywoodesque assumption and when it finally hits that it's not happening, it's hard thing to deal with.

However deal with it you must. And I agree with Gwen you just have to swallow it. "Let's just be friends" is a hard thing to do, and it may become harder when that lady starts dating someone else, but you then just have to decide how much that friendship is worth. Maybe you have to distance yourself if you think you'll end up being more of an ass when that time comes.

Certainly they don't owe you anything. No one owes ANYONE anything when it comes to having to explain themselves. If someone says, I'm not interested, they don't have to explain why. If they do, that's their choice, but unlike Hollywood, in which people explain themselves for the sake of plot narrative, life isn't like that. They don't have to explain why they aren't interested or why they aren't comfortable with these sort of issues. They're life, not yours, they owe you nothing. Deal with it. It's not a fun situation, but it's not a ball in the park for her either. Uncomfortable for both - however trying to find out why she's not interested isn't going to change the fact she isn't. Nor will it give you some inside knowledge to convince her that she is wrong.

There are no Hollywood speeches. No 10 words to make her fall in love with you. There is no owing dramatic Hollywood dialogue. This is real life. People don't always become lovers. Be happy with friendship, that is far more long lasting and JUST as rewarding. The fact someone respects you enough to be a close friend sometimes says far more than if they have you as a lover - they aren't trapped in a mix of chemical and emotional signals with you, they spend time with you simply because they like YOU. Try not ruin it. :)

[AndreaBeaumont]

Guin, I've come to realize there are roughly three types of guys. Because like you, I have a huge number guy friends verses two or three close girl friends.

There's...

The observant man, who's able to realize when it's just a friendship relatively quickly.

The more typical man, who's genuinely a little clueless but more innocently than anything.

The creepy guy, who is just that, creepy, manipulative, weird about the whole thing.

You seem to be getting the latter. To which I empathise. I've had my share of those as well. Somehow now, maybe out of necessity, I've honed my ability that during the first couple of conversations I have with a new potential friend, that I can tell which of the three he is pretty consistently. I tend to avoid the third... by running like hell in the opposite direction. I have been in more extremely uncomfterable situations than I can count on both hands, whereas a totally platonic friendship has been quickly derailed by awkward attempts to make it something more. I've been pushed up against a wall and forceably kissed twice, a third time in a car, around eight extremely uncomfterable conversations, including those following the three incidents above and a few other situations as well. All of which I proclaimed we were just friends at the beginning of the friendship. See how much good that does?

I'm never been extremely sympathetic to women's 'problems'/rants threads because they're usually whiney. But this is completely founded and a totally legitimate issue. The only advice I can offer is be extremely careful who you call your friend from now on.

[Stu]

...but when a guy offers to be a girl's friend and do things for her...nine times out of ten he really means "I want to be your friend at the moment, but I'm really doing it because you're hot and I want to get closer so we can fall in love." Seriously, if a guy walks up to you and he's being all friendly, no matter who he is...HE WANTS YOU!! DUH!! ALWAYS expect that from now on. It's the universal truth.
That's not true. At all. I mean, I work with several women, as thier lackey, no less. I don't really want anything from them except some conversation when I get bored. Your quote is well, narrowminded. Hell, I talk to girls here on TZ, most of whom live several thousands of miles away. I like them and all, but I'm not trying to sleep with any of them. Hell, I'm unaware what most of them look like.

You really haven't thought this through. I mean, what about my friends girlfriends? I get on with them so surely I must be trying to steal her away from him, right?

[ZorBrak]

I can't speak for the guys who have been pushing you as they've acted well beyond anything I ever did, but if they're willing to act in a mature manner and accept that it's just not going to happen in that way, I would think some kind of rational agreement could be reached about what is and is not ging to happen and why said things are the way they are. An information vacum only breeds bad things. I agree with that. Nothing is more insulting and immature thana girl just blowing you off when you take the time to express interest and they ignore you or act oblvious. Makes the situation much worse.


Welp all I'll say is it's just male to be pushy and aggressive and a lot of women tend to like it. Even thoughs that say they don't. Women I find are contradictive creatures and it frustrates ol' Craigory. But I'm going to look at the issue from both sides in this post. It even adds to the attraction for some guys to show agressive devotion to "winning the girl", though a lot of those girls who like to play like that are super-ficial whip crackers in my experience.

I know because I was over weight as a kid I never stood a chance with girls I was into so I got aggressive about working out and when I finally started dating last year the first girl I got with could have been Jennifer Garner's clone...I know my aggressive attitude to get with her probably helped. I didn't push her against a wall or make out with her without warning or anythign I was just, well in strong pursuit. It's not quite a simple as all being stubborn with some guys.

It's hard to explain.

Coming from the background I have, I could promise you before I got all "hot" as I hear, more often than I actually believe lol, I would get considered creepy by a girl and not even given a chance....it frustrates the hell out of you if it begins to happen consistently. There are PLENTY of superficial females who will do this and try to blame any emotional frustration for either her or him, on him. It's not completely the guys fault. You can't prevent anyone from being sincerely interested just like you can't prevent anyone from rejecting you.

I do understand what you are saying though and a lot of guys are pushy in the *wrong* kinds of ways, not the flirty kinds of ways, just relentless and forceful and by all means stay the heck away from those losers. Sadly a lot of girls go for just that kind of guy but deny that they do or get with one and tell themselves they are going to "change" him. Sorry ladies, but most smart guys aren't exactly play-doh :D.

So a larger more complex aspect of the problem is that there are just as many different types of personalities among women as there are among men and a commonly held perception is that aggressiveness has to be less about exuding confidence and more about displaying strength, forceful tendencies, or looking at women in an inferior manner.

With me, if I'm interested in a girl, I tend to let her know as I'm getting to know her now instead of months, years, whatever down the road. I know guys love the idea of moving from friendship to romance...but girls just don't. I figured that much out, and as much as I disagree with this aspect of the game in many ways I play my position as I should I suppose :), I let them know I'm into them before any serious er anything (friendship or romance) begins and I go from there. I do however often start ignoring girls if they give me the friend line that early in knowing them though...why waste the time? I have enough friends :p, that and if I see them as a dating interest they tend to be somewhat different than the kind of person I'd just want to be friends with, although sometimes that's not the case either. All depends.

It's almost too complex of an issue for me to agree or disagree with you in any complete manner.:shrug:

Bah. That's what I say to the issue.

[Fone Bone]

I really don't know how so many girls can still be oblivious to this fact...

...but when a guy offers to be a girl's friend and do things for her...nine times out of ten he really means "I want to be your friend at the moment, but I'm really doing it because you're hot and I want to get closer so we can fall in love." Seriously, if a guy walks up to you and he's being all friendly, no matter who he is...HE WANTS YOU!! DUH!! ALWAYS expect that from now on. It's the universal truth.

But maybe you can answer a question for me, Gwen...do girls ever have the same fantasy? Do they ever try to get chummy with a boy and secretly dream that the boy will ultimately be charmed with her and fall in love? Or is it only men who do that, and since women can't figure it out, men are all doomed to fail?My two best friends are lesbians. Explain this again to me.


Now, I do know heartbreak, and I sympathize with anyone who has ever suffered unrequited love. It sucks. It does. I'm not denying this fact, or the pain the two instances bring. Speak for yourself. Next to monkeys, pie and Elmo unrequited love is the greatest thing EVER!:anime:

My best friend came out last month and another of her friends (one of the creepy kind AndreaBeaumont mentioned) has been upset because this means he'll never get her into bed. He's been saying stuff like she should sleep with him just to make sure she's not straight, and that she might change her mind because he is so well-endowed. He told her that it was unfair for her to lead him on and not even let her "throw a shot in her". He told her to think about his c*** and the damage she was doing to it.

Maybe it's just me but that's selfish AND gross. He's a creep and I hope he gets run over with a truck. My best friend, who being used to hanging out with cretins (yours truly excepted of course) ;) hasn't even stopped talking to him. Probably because she has been friends with him for so long (since high school, when they dated) and had no idea what a creep he was. (I didn't either. I used to be friends with him too cause he liked Rescue Rangers but DANG I had no idea he was that creepy.)

Gwen, I sympathise, I do (you too Andrea Beaumont) but if it is such a big problem you shouldn't be friends with them anymore. If a person is coming on that strong and you tell them to back down and they don't well, heck, they probably never will.

[James]

I agree with that. Nothing is more insulting and immature thana girl just blowing you off when you take the time to express interest and they ignore you or act oblvious. Makes the situation much worse.
No offense Craig m'ol' mucker, but this is the perspective I think men - and women in some cases - need to get over. You make it sound like your interest in the woman is like some act of generousity; you've taken time to express interest as if the man had no benefits from such a prospective partnership.

The fact is it comes down to understanding boundaries and reading body language, also excepting the rights of the other not having to do something embarassing and non production as having to "explain themselves" as if rejecting someone is wrong and they need to defend their decision.


Welp all I'll say is it's just male to be pushy and aggressive and a lot of women tend to like it. Even thoughs that say they don't. Women I find are contradictive creatures and it frustrates ol' Craigory.
Lol. Or maybe some women expect it. I don't think there are many women who actually like it. Women - like men - can like strong personalities. Alpha males who take a lot of attention can be attractive. That doesn't mean they liked to be pushed around or subjected to excessive and pushy questions by men they don't want to get involved with.

In the same way some men are attracted to strong women who know what they want - doesn't mean they wanted to be interrogated by all women.

Biggest mistake for men is seeing how other men work with women and assume a) it's the right way and b) it's a method they can use, when it neither suits their character or body language. Often, those who try and emulate Alpha behaviour - which is often dubious behaviour anyway - end up looking.. creepy.

Yes, a lot of men dominate through power. My father was one. One of my close friends swore by the "just persist till they give up.." and it worked for him.. but on top of what is arguably psychological abuse, he was pretty charismatic and physically attractive. Worked for him, doesn't mean it was ethical or that it would simply work for you.

As I said there is no hard fast rule which will guarantee success. I think as soon as men realise that they may be come less confused from this humble male opinion! :)

I know because I was over weight as a kid I never stood a chance with girls I was into so I got aggressive about working out and when I finally started dating last year the first girl I got with could have been Jennifer Garner's clone...I know my aggressive attitude to get with her probably helped. I didn't push her against a wall or make out with her without warning or anythign I was just, well in strong pursuit. It's not quite a simple as all being stubborn with some guys.

Persistence. As I said, it can be successful for men, especially ones with looks. I think it's a dangerous route to take and it's one where you HAVE to read the signs. I think some persistent men can't.

In fact, a lot of overly persistent men I see don't actually know what the girl's thinking, get more irritated because they don't understand her actions and that makes the more persistent and frustrated to understand them.

Like with a jury, Jury's always look for motives in crimes. Motives are fairly irrelevant to the judicial system, it's facts which matter. It's not the WHY it's the HOW. Same for relations. WHY she's not interested shouldn't matter, the fact is she is NOT. That should be enough for her space and your own self respect.

Coming from the background I have, I could promise you before I got all "hot" as I hear, more often than I actually believe lol, I would get considered creepy by a girl and not even given a chance....it frustrates the hell out of you if it begins to happen consistently. There are PLENTY of superficial females who will do this and try to blame any emotional frustration for either her or him, on him. It's not completely the guys fault. You can't prevent anyone from being sincerely interested just like you can't prevent anyone from rejecting you.

Girls can't help it if they don't find you attractive. That's life. And if it's someone you are not attracted too, I bet it does get creepy if they keep bullying you far more than it's someone who turns you on. Strangely, I think guys would have the same issue. It's not about being superficial.

Guy's have this stupid believe - again offered by Hollywood - that while guys do have to have sexual attraction, a girl just sees "the heart" and how you look doesn't come into it. It DOES. That doesn't mean all girls expect a beefcake, but whatever their thing is, to a degree, they have to be attracted to you. Whether it's because you are fat, too thin, overly muscley... if you aren't that girls thing, it's not surprising that they don't offer interest. Sometimes it's just presentation. Hygine.. There is a sort of indignation men have that they are not "picked" and you look and think "well, maybe if you brushed your teeth, or lost a little weight, or gained a few pounds you may look presentable". I've never got this man "fact" that women are expected to see through the physical and just be attracted to the heart and if they don't, they are clearly shallow...

Yes girls are perhaps less physically orientated in pairings to guys, but they still are HUMAN. They still have interest in physical form. Some are very picky, some might not be. Some might not mind thin people, some might find it yuck. It's not superficial. It's only superficial if it's the only thing they are interested in. Women are people too, you know. Craig losing the weight made him more attractive. Nothing shallow about that - I'm betting losing the weight also made him feel more confident and present himself better - even if just in body language. Male/Female, confidence is a BIG key. Not in being a show off, but being cool with yourself. If you don't like yourself, gonna be hard for someone else to. So maybe it wasn't "less fat" or "more muscley" but something more inate which made him attractive.

Nevertheless, women do look at body too.. just not to the extent that men do..


Sadly a lot of girls go for just that kind of guy but deny that they do or get with one and tell themselves they are going to "change" him. Sorry ladies, but most smart guys aren't exactly play-doh .
What's it they say? Men don't want the girl to change, and women try and change the man... :D

I don't think men or women are perfect.. HOWEVER, since this board has a LARGE male population and I imagine many youngsters and people with adulation/women issues (as the age brings) they would do better than try and defend maledom and LISTEN to a female perspective. It might help them in their future relations!

[Mek]

But maybe you can answer a question for me, Gwen...do girls ever have the same fantasy? Do they ever try to get chummy with a boy and secretly dream that the boy will ultimately be charmed with her and fall in love? Or is it only men who do that, and since women can't figure it out, men are all doomed to fail?
I'm not Gwen (nor do I wish to be, heh), but in my own personal experience, that is *sometimes* true.

Without going into details, I'm kinda experiencing that at the moment, but with the way things are RL, it might last too much longer. XP

[Style]

You see, I'm an extreme introvert by nature. I have a hard time making friends. However, at my old high school, I gained some notoriety and popularity, (partially stemming from my winning the school's first-annual talent show for a stand-up routine,) and I got pretty comfortable there, so I was confident and had a lot of friends.

Some of those friends were female. Unlike my peers, (at the time,) I was actually pretty comfortable engaging girls in conversation and forming platonic friendships. While the idea of dating some of them occured to me, I didn't really seriously consider it or make those kinds of advances.

Until my Senior Prom.

I actually went Stag to it. And wasn't expecting anything more than have a grand old time with my friends. Well, one of the girls who was a friend of mine really was spending a lot of time with me then, way more than normal. So I really was wondering if she was prompting me to "make a move."

I asked her to a lunch date the next week, and we had a good time. We talked to each other frequently during the summer, and things were going fine, I actually thought they were progressing to something "more."

Then I first started college. This is where my extreme introvertedness came back into play. I had an extremely hard time making new friends in college. I'm still struggling, in fact. Getting dejected and longing for the friendships of old, I really tried to push things ahead with that girl to compensate for my loneliness in school.

Well, I smothered her with too much attention and nearly ruined things there. But I gave her some time and tried again, and our "relationship" lingered for another year before giving up the ghost, but it became clear we had different expectations at this point. I wanted the "something more," and she said she "always just wanted to be friends."

I wasn't sure if what she said was always true or if she had changed her mind when I became to "clingy." But it didn't matter. We tried just being friends, but it didn't work, and eventually we just had to stop talking to each other.

I really fell bad about what happened now. Because during high school she avoided male friends because she was afraid she'd "give them the wrong impression" and hurt their feelings. I was one of her first male friends, and that's precisely what happened, but I blame myself instead of her for that.

But to my credit I never tried to "push" her into a relationship, I did respect her when she said "lets just be friends." My problem was that I naively hoped she'd change her mind about that, especially after I had removed all incentive for her to do so.

So what's the moral of my story? People like to hang around with those who are confident with themselves, like are was initiallly. They don't like to hang out with people who are desperate, or clingy, which is what I became for a time.

So guys, if a girl rejects your advances, waiting and hoping she'll change her mind, trying to convince her she's wrong, and not respecting her are the worst things you can do. Just be confident in yourselves.

And don't expect Platonic relationships to evolve. They usually don't, and I find that the female platonic friendships I've maintained and haven't "pushed" have been much more fulfilling.

In the end, I don't know how much this applies to the topic, but that's my personal experience and what I've learned.

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

The blame mainly falls with Hollywood. :)
Sometimes Hollywood is merely a dressed up reflection of society. Obviously a lot of people in Hollywood THINK this is how society works. And where do they get this idea? Especially since so many Hollywood execs are men.

Now, this is a generalization that doesn't apply to every man, but I find that it's very difficult to cultivate male-female friendships without having some sort of sexual tension to have to deal with. People probably will lambast movies like When Harry met Sally, but at least it's honest. The sex DOES always get in the way!!;)

[Stewie]

Sorry for the OT, but I've said all I have to. And anything else I might have has been covered.

Next to monkeys, pie and Elmo unrequited love is the greatest thing EVER!You may not be appreciated until after your time, but truly, you are a wise man.

[Mynd Hed]

You know what Chris Rock says on the subject, right? "Men don't have platonic friends. Men have women they haven't [had sexual encounters with] YET." Nor do women have platonic friends, according to Mr. Rock, because to a woman a platonic friend is "a [sexual encounter] in a glass case. In case of emergency, break glass!"

This, of course, is an overgeneralization for the purposes of comedy. But I really do think that there's a grain of truth in the words of everyone's favorite Oscar host. Guys have this tendency to view friendship with women as a good first step toward a romantic relationship. This problem may, as SJJ suggests, be exacerbated by Hollywood, but I think it's really just a natural consequence of shyness. Some guys-- I'd even be willing to go out on a limb and say MOST guys, especially younger guys-- are just plain scared to try to initiate something with a girl they don't know very well. The ones who have a hard time learning to control this fear find it safer and easier to initiate a friendship first, and then trying to initiate a romantic relationship later on, when they feel more comfortable.
Likewise, there's a certain type of woman who consciously or unconsciously understands this fact of male behavior, and maintains male friendships in part because she knows that any time she chooses, she can turn these friendships into romantic relationships. There's another type who tends to be completely oblivious when her male friends are really angling for a romantic relationship.
Your average male of the type I've described above has run into several of both types of woman before, and in both cases it's frustrating. The former doesn't really have any interest in him as a person at all-- to her, he's an object to be manipulated. The latter is more well-intentioned, but no less infuriating to the guy, as she is constantly giving what seem to him to be mixed signals.
So your average male of this type has been alternately dangled on a string and rejected for years, making him bitter and resentful but ever more desiring of the female sex. That sort of attitude hardly helps his chances in the future. It's a vicious cycle, and it usually requires some external force-- finally getting together with someone and the boosted confidence that brings, a religious experience, a near-death experience, SOMETHING-- to break it.

None of this ramble really gives you any concrete advice to help your situation, Gwen (not that you're really asking for any-- it sounds more like you just need to vent, which is fine). But if absolutely nothing else, understanding where the other side is coming from might help you deal a little more gently with your misguided suitors.

I understand what you're saying, though I'm not entirely with you on the "it's all their fault" line. Sometimes relationships just have to end when the parties involved realize they had different expectations going in, and neither person is in the wrong because of that, frustrating as it is. "Get over it, let's just be friends" is not an easy thing for most people. It's fair to say the most difficult friend-relationship in my life was with someone where one of us was in that situation relative to the other. It has worked out in the end and we're better friends because of it, but it took literally years of long nights and a lot of tears to get there. Neither of us blames the other. Just as you said, you can't make yourself be attracted to someone, but that person can't make himself be un-attracted to you. I wonder if that made any sense.

Anyway, what I'm saying is "Let's just be friends" and magical poof everything's good just doesn't seem... normal. What's normal is 1) you're done being friends or 2) you work through it and it takes effort and time before you can be friends again.

You's a smart man, Twage. You've always got to be ready for the very real possibility that the guy just isn't ready to set aside his romantic feelings and be friends with you again-- in fact, it usually isn't "again," because while it's possible that the guy honestly only developed romantic feelings for you after becoming friends, it's much more likely that he was romantically interested in you from the beginning but lacked the confidence to express it. It's painful, but it's something both of you might have to deal with.
Even if you can be friends after a romantic revelation, you can't just instantly go back to the way you were. You're going to have to find a new equilibrium, and that takes time and effort.
This may sound crass, but if the guy in question really is a pretty decent specimen of humanity, never underestimate the effectiveness of setting him up with someone. (-: Just don't make it too obvious that part of your motivation (besides that fact that he IS your friend and you want to see him happy) is to get him off your back.

And how is it manipulative to simply want to know why? And I don't mean continualy hounding someone till they break down and say it as that never gets to the real reason why the girl/woman said no in the first place. What I mean is a simple explination beyond "I just don't like you in that way." An explination like that only breeds more questions and uncomfortable situations.

As a guy who's asked the "Why not?" question way too oftenin the past, I've got to disagree with you on this. It's a question to which there's just no good answer. What's she supposed to say? "Well, I WOULD go out with you, but you're too tall and gawky and you've always got something in your teeth." Get real.
Besides, for every guy who asks this question out of an honest desire to understand the other person or in hopes that she'll point out a real problem in his approach so that he doesn't make other women uncomfortable in future romantic exploits, there are ten guys who treat whatever she says as a prescription. "Well, she said she and I are too different, so if I like everything she likes and agree with everything she says, THEN she'll love me!" "She said that I don't have enough ambition, so if I enroll in college and get a promotion at work, THEN she'll love me!"
Answering a question like that in a superficial way is dishonest and disappointing, and answering it in a frank, honest way (during a very sensitive emotional point for the guy, when he's at his least likely to take it well) is just asking to have to reject a repeat attempt in a month or two.

[William C. Maune]

And if a girl is interested, she's got a mouth. She'll let you know. These aren't Victorian or pre-Victorian times. As crazy as we may be as a gender, we are very well equipped for expressing our feelings. As irrational as they may be.

All I have to say at the moment is that I don't think I agree with this, as much as I wish it were true. From what I've seen in life, most folks of either gender have a hard time expressing their feelings/interests.

That being said, I'm sorry to hear about your situation and I hope it improves for ya in the future. It doesn't at all sound like a pleasant place to be in.

[Weatherman]

In fact, a lot of overly persistent men I see don't actually know what the girl's thinking, get more irritated because they don't understand her actions and that makes the more persistent and frustrated to understand them.

Like with a jury, Jury's always look for motives in crimes. Motives are fairly irrelevant to the judicial system, it's facts which matter. It's not the WHY it's the HOW. Same for relations. WHY she's not interested shouldn't matter, the fact is she is NOT. That should be enough for her space and your own self respect.

Actually, why IS very importanty. Nothing ever just "happens" in a vaccum. There's always something that casued what ever happened to happen. If that something isn't known to both sides in the relationship, and yes a friendship is a relationship, then nothing can be learned from what happened. How is someone supposed to make any kind of positive change in their life if they don't know why something is happening?

I've been on the otherside of relationships similar to the one's Gwen's talking about, though I never had any real romantic goals in mind, and being accused of this kind of behavior really hurts, especially when it comes from someone you consider a friend. Now, if one side in the relationship is simply unable ir unwilling to be a grown-up about the situation, there's probably not a whole lot that can be done in a positive direction, but there are still things that can be done that are at least less negative.

[Weatherman]

As a guy who's asked the "Why not?" question way too oftenin the past, I've got to disagree with you on this. It's a question to which there's just no good answer. What's she supposed to say? "Well, I WOULD go out with you, but you're too tall and gawky and you've always got something in your teeth." Get real.
Besides, for every guy who asks this question out of an honest desire to understand the other person or in hopes that she'll point out a real problem in his approach so that he doesn't make other women uncomfortable in future romantic exploits, there are ten guys who treat whatever she says as a prescription. "Well, she said she and I are too different, so if I like everything she likes and agree with everything she says, THEN she'll love me!" "She said that I don't have enough ambition, so if I enroll in college and get a promotion at work, THEN she'll love me!"
Answering a question like that in a superficial way is dishonest and disappointing, and answering it in a frank, honest way (during a very sensitive emotional point for the guy, when he's at his least likely to take it well) is just asking to have to reject a repeat attempt in a month or two.
Perhaps should clarify a little. I ment that a statement like that deserves a little more explination. SOmething like "I do like you as a person, but not in a romantic way. You're just not the kind of person I'm looking for in that way."

Just chopping off the relationship at the knees is a really lousy way to go about it. It only leads one or possibly both parties wondering "What if I did this or did that or didn't do this.....ect. ect. ect."

[Aquadementia]

For some (to me) inexplicable reason, over the past 6 or 7 months, I've found that in both online and real life relationships, I have to spend more and more time explaining that when I said, "I like you as a friend," I meant just that. A friend. No more.
Maybe it would help online if you had a new avatar.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Aquadementia/AlGal.gif

Maybe because I'm allergic to Bath & Body Work shops. I don't know.
But, I like soap that smells like tangerines.
Why am I coming off so girly lately?

But words of encouragment are not code for: Let's run off and start a new life together. I tend to think most people would agree with me. Natalie feels guys hear these words differently. I dunno.
To speak frankly, some guys, ok most guys, ok all guys, ok it can't just be me,
anyhow,
some guys have their heads so far up their ass they'll take any attention as some sort of come on. What else could it be?


I don't know what's going on in other peoples heads, but that kind of "devotion" sounds like someone more concerned about getting attention then they are thinking about the other persons feelings.

Be a Gentleman, and LET IT GO!
No kidding.
Sure, sometimes there are some big time emotions that have developed and it makes it hard for people to deal with each other.
Usually though, if you get shot down, just move on.
There's nothing wrong with admitting an attraction to someone, but if someone is just getting around to finding out the other person doesn't feel the same way, I doubt they have too much invested in it. They have to know that wasn't their only chance at happiness, it doesn't label them a looser for all time and there's no need to take the "she must be crazy" route.

[Fone Bone]

Sorry for the OT, but I've said all I have to. And anything else I might have has been covered.

You may not be appreciated until after your time, but truly, you are a wise man.I know, right?

Sometimes I wonder if I didn't believe this if I would still be a 29-year-old virgin.:D

[Martianinvader]

Speak for yourself. Next to monkeys, pie and Elmo unrequited love is the greatest thing EVER!:anime: Then you must be the happiest man alive, because if there's anything easy to attain in this world, it's that. The rest of us, looking for TRUE love, have to spend what can amount to decades looking.

My best friend came out last month and another of her friends (one of the creepy kind AndreaBeaumont mentioned) has been upset because this means he'll never get her into bed. He's been saying stuff like she should sleep with him just to make sure she's not straight, and that she might change her mind because he is so well-endowed. He told her that it was unfair for her to lead him on and not even let her "throw a shot in her". He told her to think about his c*** and the damage she was doing to it. Maybe it's just me but that's selfish AND gross.It's not just you, and that's beyond selfish and gross. It's guys like that that deserve punishment and heartbreak, not well-meaning guys who assumed girls liked them based on subtle clues, but were too afraid to ask.

Gwen still hasn't returned to this topic yet, and there's a lot of insight into the male mind to be found within. I hope she absorbs a lot of it. She's really gotta see this from the other side, because I can't support her first post at all.

[Fone Bone]

Then you must be the happiest man alive, because if there's anything easy to attain in this world, it's that. The rest of us, looking for TRUE love, have to spend what can amount to decades looking. I do all right in the happiness department.:)

It's not just you, and that's beyond selfish and gross. It's guys like that that deserve punishment and heartbreak, not well-meaning guys who assumed girls liked them based on subtle clues, but were too afraid to ask.

But how can somebody who knows somebody for fifteen years SAY something like that? This ain't the same guy I knew and if it IS I seriously misjudged him years ago (although most teenagers hang around cretins.)

[Phantasm]

Girls tend to do this a lot.I have seen my fair share of situations where whenever around any guy, they act all flirty and cute and all smiles but when it comes to the inevitable instance of the guy returning the 'attention', they run to sob on their best girlfriend's shoulder, whining about how every guy wants 'more'.In the end they all throw dramatic fits, pointing accusatory fingers at the poor XY bearing member of the lot and make him feel guilty.

It is as simple a fact as it is an apparently complex truth to understand; guys and girls just don't stay platonic friends. 'The sex part always comes in the way'.Let me go as far enough to even say that platonoc friendship between a guy and a girl just isn't meant to be. Physically and emotionally. Even when you find yourself in a state where you are in a position to prove the general perception towards this guy-girl friendship wrong,in the end there's really not much you can do about the 'grim' reality of you having ovaries and your 'male best friend' having sperms.:sad:

As for the guys, I can't blame them. Its just so embarrasingly common to see girls trying all sorts of things to grab their attantion. Not implying at all, that something along the lines was your intention when you befriended the dude, just prodding at the possibilty that probably that is what they all expected of you. Sad, I know. But if a guy comes up to me and asks about my day, in all honesty, the first thing running through my mind would be what does he really want?:shrug:

I guess all I can say is just stop trying to be thier friend.We all know it just doesn't work that way in the end.

[SSJPabs]

All I have to say at the moment is that I don't think I agree with this, as much as I wish it were true. From what I've seen in life, most folks of either gender have a hard time expressing their feelings/interests.We touched on this a bit when talking to a girl I know a while ago, about why nice guys are always taken. She said that if I a girl actually articulates an attraction first, everyone will think she's slutty. Plus most girls don't really want nice guys because if you have to go up and talk to him first, he's not the kind of guy you're going to have any fun with. But yet you still complain when they're taken.

It's funny really, (and who knows if Guinaevere is like this or not but most girls are) but just SAY WHAT YOU MEAN.

So basically what worked for me was to act like an arrogant jerk to actually meet women, and then reveal my nicer side if we decided to stay together longer than a week or two.

Note: I don't know if this is acceptable for this discussion in terms of language but I think it should be stated

I think the ladder question works best: If a guy and girl are alone, she excuses herself to go to the bathroom and then comes out naked and asks the guy to have sex with her, what will the guy do?

That answer to that question is a good place to work from.

[Fone Bone]

Girls tend to do this a lot.I have seen my fair share of situations where whenever around any guy, they act all flirty and cute and all smiles but when it comes to the inevitable instance of the guy returning the 'attention', they run to sob on their best girlfriend's shoulder, whining about how every guy wants 'more'.In the end they all throw dramatic fits, pointing accusatory fingers at the poor XY bearing member of the lot and make him feel guilty.

It is as simple a fact as it is an apparently complex truth to understand; guys and girls just don't stay platonic friends. 'The sex part always comes in the way'.Let me go as far enough to even say that platonoc friendship between a guy and a girl just isn't meant to be. Physically and emotionally. Even when you find yourself in a state where you are in a position to prove the general perception towards this guy-girl friendship wrong,in the end there's really not much you can do about the 'grim' reality of you having ovaries and your 'male best friend' having sperms.:sad:

As for the guys, I can't blame them. Its just so embarrasingly common to see girls trying all sorts of things to grab their attantion. Not implying at all, that something along the lines was your intention when you befriended the dude, just prodding at the possibilty that probably that is what they all expected of you. Sad, I know. But if a guy comes up to me and asks about my day, in all honesty, the first thing running through my mind would be what does he really want?:shrug:

I guess all I can say is just stop trying to be thier friend.We all know it just doesn't work that way in the end.Where does my two best friends being lesbians fit into this?

Ulp! I'm not gay, am I?

Are we also to suppose that a guy can't be friends with a gay dude or a lady with lesbian without the other person wanting something in return?

This stuff is sure confusing.

[Kuja's Light]

Pssh, genders are mere lableings in the end. I say just discuss things in a mature fashion, and don't bring genderness into it. Cause frankly, not every guy wants sex, and just because someone thinks about it at times, DOES NOT mean they want it either. I wish people would understand that.

Anyways, I've found I can chill out easier when chatting with female friends at times. One thing to keep in mind, at least in my mind, it's stupid to hide some things. Just say what you feel, and in a mature fashion, and hopefully it'll work out right.

[James]

Actually, why IS very importanty. Nothing ever just "happens" in a vaccum. There's always something that casued what ever happened to happen. If that something isn't known to both sides in the relationship, and yes a friendship is a relationship, then nothing can be learned from what happened. How is someone supposed to make any kind of positive change in their life if they don't know why something is happening?
Understandable, however if the scenerio's we are talking about which cross the boundaries from friendship to relationship - or the hope thereof - there isn't likely to be a single element, and that's the issue. Men (and maybe just people generally) like to condense things into simple explanations.

"She doesn't like me? Specifically I must have done something to offend her and that's made her not like me.." with a sort of mentality which is thinking if they can locate that one tactical error things would have been different, or they maybe able to isolate it and stop it happening with another girl. The fact that another girl has a totally different personality unless you are doing something STUPIDLY wrong it's not going to be something that will carry over from relationship to relationship.

If it's something so stupid it can be singularly defined and is something that damages ALL relationship prospects, I would hope that your mates could tell you what it is.. it would probably be something glaringly obvious.

Often when guys want more, it's not because they've not done something right or wrong, it's just there is not the level of attraction they want. Pleading for an answer as to what they did wrong doesn't help anyone as there may not be a single definable answer.

Relationships and friendships are complex. Why do we like someone? Why do we not? Why do we fancy x over y? Sometimes asking for an answer may not just offer a reply which doesn't cover all the issues, it maybe inaccurate. A girl may know how she feels, but interpreting that is hard. You may end up getting an answer which isn't fair or accurate and carrying that on into your next relationship. As I said before, confidence is a vital part of any relationship.

So that brings me to that final reason, confidence. Interaction is something which gets better with experience, not tips. We work inately. Experience brings understanding. Pulling out answers can bring out replies which don't aren't accurate for various reasons and can be damaging to the ego. That damage can be stuff which isn't even entirely accurate. So rather than just moving on and trying again, you just end up with MORE baggage.. and that confidence issue may actually affect your next relationship. That explanation as to why it wouldn't work/what you did wrong may just fixate you on a phantom problem.

By all means, if you are turned down ask if you want to know why beyond compatiablity. 9/10, if someone says "no", you aren't going to be able to extract any information which will change that and as I said it could be damaging. So the question one must ask, is persisting for a good answer worth it for yourself? Will it help? What will it do to any remaining friendship?

I'm not being condesending here. I've asked. Not aggressively, but when some relationships broke down I wanted to know, somehow deep down thinking it would make a difference if I understood where I was going wrong... and that's the danger - one is asking what YOU did wrong.. when in fact it could be that she is not compatiable with you and you just don't know it.. you might be great.. it's just her.. so again, why burden your self by pressuring for an answer that might be slanted against you?

I've learnt the hard way and I imagine many here will only learn this through experience also. But from my experience, if they aren't interested and they aren't forthcoming as to why (and I admit it's a natural inclination to ask), don't persist. Let it lie, move on. Plenty of fish out there. Plenty of good ladies and men. Just cos this didn't work doesn't mean either of you are bad/crap/rubbish/not worthy just it's not really meant to be.

Move on and let it go guys, just let it go! :)

[SSJPabs]

Just cos this didn't work doesn't mean either of you are bad/crap/rubbish/not worthy just it's not really meant to be.Of course, sometimes it DOES mean that you're bad/crap/rubbish/not worthy. Deluding yourself does no good either. If you're an 8, you're an 8, if you're a 3 you're a 3.

[William C. Maune]

It's funny really, (and who knows if Guinaevere is like this or not but most girls are) but just SAY WHAT YOU MEAN.

I'd guess that Guinaevere probably does say what she means in situations like this. However, while I don't think an explanation is due in most circumstances (as others have discussed), I do agree with you that most people do need to be clear, say what they mean and give a definite answer. Someone may be thinking they are giving the other person the "no" message, but the other party may not understand, be confused by what they perceive to be mixed signals, etc., etc. A definite, clear response helps set the boundaries for most folks. The exception is the type of folks Guinaevere is dealing with, but otherwise it can be rather helpful for most folks out there.

[creeper]

This thread sends me back to my early high school days. I used to be extremely overweight. Well, i wasn't that bad, but bad enough. I always played the role of the "great friend" and "confidant". The thing about investing that much time on someone and getting to know them it's easy to fall on some feelings. When I was nieve to how the dating game was I would tell them and watch everything just fall apart. I was always so hurt by their reaction. I took it personally. I didn't realize until the following year my place in the dating totum. Overweight and visually unnatractive guys get last picks on women. So if you had feelings for someone in the high end of the totum you had no chance.

Realizing this I kept my feelings a secret. Of course there would be times that I would confide in a "friend" and later they'd spill the beans to the girl. The girl, no matter how close we were did everything in her power to make sure I knew she wasn't attracted to me. Whether it be not talk to me or be extremely mean.

The world is a cruel place. I went through this for the majority of high school. My junior year I had lost a considerable amount of weight. As a result my place on the totum went up. There were many girls interested, though none came foward until they were in commited relationship years later. So I had missed my opportunity to take advantage of my new place because I thought I was still in the same situation.

The fact that the dating totum exists, whether anyone admits it or not is a shame. It only proves how shallow women and men are. Girls don't generally go for imperfect guys. Nor will they give them the time of day relationshipwise. Mind you, there are some that have had enough "game" to talk a girl into being interested and taking the time to truly know them, but it's so rare it's not even worth talking about

Me personally, I have always said if a women cannot accept me while I'm fat and at my ugliest then they are not for me. I even made a pact with myself, if i ever lost the weight I wouldn't even bother because I know the women that are interested wouldn't have given me the time of day in my old body.

I think it's all perspective. After my first year I liked certain women but didn't try to pursue them, but as soon as they found out my feelings, it didn't matter that I treated her the same. I was always doing something to "pursue" her. Some women get so paranoid, they actually sever ties to make a point. It's so redundant because me personally I never treated them any differently. I was the same old guy. The only thing that changed was that she knew I liked her. I think it's the women's failing if they can't accept the humanity of life, and that some men may have feelings. This doesn't mean they'll jump their bones, or even that their interested in an actual relationship. It just means they like them, plain and simple.

[Harley]

And if a girl is interested, she's got a mouth. She'll let you know. These aren't Victorian or pre-Victorian times. As crazy as we may be as a gender, we are very well equipped for expressing our feelings. As irrational as they may be.

Hello to my fellow tomboy. From what I've been observing, we're kinda exceptions to the rule. Most girls expect guys to pick up on the signals. Then they spend time figuring out all that nonesense and they're then further confused when they get to the chicks that don't mess around with all that nonsense and will tell them if they're interested.

Heck. Women confuse the hell outta me and I am one. If you've been very clear though and they're now causing you to lose sleep, then I don't really think anyone can't blame you at all for dropping them.

Just to confuse Zorbrak more, I've never had any problems with the friendship to relationship thing. Although, that friendship went to a relationship very quickly because I expressed interest and asked the guy out.(Gah. Age. Back when I was 16-17) I’ve also never had any interest in the bad boys. I’m all about the nerdy guys. =D

[Kaner]

What the funk? I thought guinaevere was married to that tall guy in all her pictures. Have I been hallucinating again?

-JerkBox

[Leaping Larry Jojo]

What the funk? I thought guinaevere was married to that tall guy in all her pictures. Have I been hallucinating again?

-JerkBoxGuin was married once. Apparently it ended badly. Not sure if that guy you're talking about was her husband, though.

[guinaevere]

First and foremost, thanks to everyone for taking the time to read my ramblings, and for offering so much in the way of insight and opinion and experience. I appreciate more than I can say.

And how is it manipulative to simply want to know why? And I don't mean continualy hounding someone till they break down and say it as that never gets to the real reason why the girl/woman said no in the first place. Well, first, I did mean that the in the 'hounding' sense. I have no problems with the initial "why not?"
What I mean is a simple explination beyond "I just don't like you in that way." An explination like that only breeds more questions and uncomfortable situations.Yeah, but the truth is, too often, there isn't a logical, explainable way. As I say, women aren't always terribly rational. And it's not just us. Do you like the color blue over green? Why? Why not. Personal preferences aren't able to be dictated out logically. You either are attracted to/interested in someone, or you are not.

Now, there are definate times when you can simply say, "well, I don't like that you're A, B, C & D." The problem with that is, sometimes the guy will try to alter the appearance of his behavior to please the girl, with the hopes that she'll then like him. That very rarely works, because 1) the guy is basically only altering the appearance of his behavior, as I say. and 2) because the girl still isn't attracted to him.

I would think some kind of rational agreement could be reached about what is and is not ging to happen and why said things are the way they are. An information vacum only breeds bad things.Absolutely. No arguement there.

And I personally know some girls and women who just aren't very good at expessing their emotions. A blanket statement like th one you made isn't good way to sum up what I see you're trying to say as it just paints every guy and gal with the same brush, missing the underlying details that make every situation different. Again, you're right in that every situation has different nuances and dynamics. But perhaps I haven't said what I meant to clearly. My thought was this: If the guy hints, pushes, asks, et cetera, and the girl doesn't respond in the affirmative after numberous attempts, then it's very definately, "NO."


It's probably just going to turn into a really ugly situation with a lot of hurt feelings and destroyed relationships. I would highly advise that you take a moment to settle yourself down before doing this and if you start to feel frustrated when talking to them just step back and take a few deep breaths. Don't let a bad situation spiral out of control into a worse one.Thank you Weatherman, you're a sweetheart for that! Truth is, this has been going on for months, with my consistantly having to push the guys in question away literally or figuratively. My feelings have been hurt because my very clearly expressed wish to be nothing more than friends has been completely ignored for so long, and I tend to think these guys aren't terrible losses in the friend department.

I hate to say that, I do. But, as I pointed out towards the beginning of my rant, I've had SOO many guy friends over the years who never behaved this way towards me. Just simply equal friends. If these guys can't handle it, I'm sorry, I'm moving on.

they'e in as much emotional pain as you are right now. I definately know and recognize this, and trust me, it's only because I've felt this all along that I've continued my friendship with them.

Seriously, if a guy walks up to you and he's being all friendly, no matter who he is...HE WANTS YOU!! DUH!! ALWAYS expect that from now on. It's the universal truth.:D Trust me, I know a player when he walks up to me. Honestly, Atlanta should be known as Playah's Town. But again, I refer y'all to the many guy friends I've had over the years that treated me as an equal, and never overstepped the 'friend' boundaries.

But maybe you can answer a question for me, Gwen...do girls ever have the same fantasy? Do they ever try to get chummy with a boy and secretly dream that the boy will ultimately be charmed with her and fall in love?Oh, without question. And what's worse, is that so many of us girls are attracted to the ruder, more 'dangerous' types of personalities. Yes, we subconsciously think to ourselves, "he loves ME, he's good to ME." When 99% of the time, he isn't. He sees a vulnerable girl who cowers to his wants and needs, and he takes advantage of it.

Or is it only men who do that, and since women can't figure it out, men are all doomed to fail?LOL. No, men are not all doomed to fail. I heard it said within the past few months that good men win when it counts. They may lose the more popular, attractive girls who go for the idiots I just referred to. But ultimately, they'll wind up with a girl who'll be wonderful for them.

My big brother is a good example. It took him 37 years, and a visit to eHarmony.com to find a good woman who was perfect for him. He had a lot of heartbreak on the journey, but now it's moot. And now, he finally won when it counted.

Just as you said, you can't make yourself be attracted to someone, but that person can't make himself be un-attracted to you. I wonder if that made any sense.An excellent point, and yes, that made perfect sense. The issue is, how one handles the fact that they can't just turn off the feelings. If nothing but flat-out friendship is going to continually hurt them, then ya might want to retreat from battlefield. If the person is sadistic, and doesn't mind the continual heartbreak, stick around for the friendship. But don't keep pushing the other person when it's clearly not wanted.

Anyway, what I'm saying is "Let's just be friends" and magical poof everything's good just doesn't seem... normal. I can't tell you how much I agree with you.

The blame mainly falls with Hollywood. It presents this image that after a few adventures a friendship matures into love more often than it doesn't. It likes to show casts slowly moving from friends to love (mainly because the viewers demand that fantasy). The sad thing is, the viewers - and society - start to expect it to happen in real life, and get very frustrated when it doesn't happen.It's funny you mention that, SJJ, because earlier this afternoon, listening to a voice mail from one of the guys in question, I suddenly blamed the Bronte Sisters and Jane Austin for paving this street. =)

Nor will it give you some inside knowledge to convince her that she is wrong.ExACTly. And please folks, I'm not a cold-hearted fill-in-the-blank. I've very clearly and exhaustively laid it out more than once to each of the guys the very basics of my reasons for not being interested in well, being interested.

The fact someone respects you enough to be a close friend sometimes says far more than if they have you as a lover - they aren't trapped in a mix of chemical and emotional signals with you, they spend time with you simply because they like YOU. Try not ruin it. :):applauds: Very nicely said.



The creepy guy, who is just that, creepy, manipulative, weird about the whole thing.

You seem to be getting the latter. To which I empathise. I've had my share of those as well. Can I agree and disagree at the same time? :D In these cases, none of them are creeps, else I wouldn't have become good friends with them. But yes, there are a good number of those types out there as well, and yes, you run as fast as you can when they hone in.

Nothing is more insulting and immature thana girl just blowing you off when you take the time to express interest and they ignore you or act oblvious.Totally agree. But then unfortunately, many people today live in very small worlds. They ignore the cashier at the store, while going through the check outline without looking at them, or even saying, "hello" & "thank you." And these seem to be the sort of people who can't be decent enough to say "that's very sweet, but no thank you."

I know guys love the idea of moving from friendship to romance...but girls just don't.Interesting. And from personal experience, again, I totally agree with you. The only guys I've gotten romantic with where ones that I wanted to from the start. And there was no way the guys didn't know that.

Speak for yourself. Next to monkeys, pie and Elmo unrequited love is the greatest thing EVER!:anime: :giggles:


Welp all I'll say is it's just male to be pushy and aggressive and a lot of women tend to like it. Even thoughs that say they don't. Women I find are contradictive creatures and it frustrates ol' Craigory.
Or maybe some women expect it. I don't think there are many women who actually like it.I often say it because it's humerous, but it's only funny because it's got a grain of truth in it: We women are all crazy and stoopid.

There are a lot of women who mistake a guy who pushes that girl for love. They ration it: "he wouldn't be spending this time/energy on me if he didn't want me. I'm the one who's special to him." When meantime, all the guy wants is to get a girl who 'gives it away' with as little disagreement as possible.

Women - like men - can like strong personalities. No question. But strong personalities don't necessarily mean brutish, caveman personalities. These are two very different things.

I'm not Gwen (nor do I wish to be, heh):p Fine. Kick me while I'm down. :D

I wasn't sure if what she said was always true or if she had changed her mind when I became to "clingy." But it didn't matter.Sorry to hear this, Style 92. But I tend to think you're very right in a number of times on your post. Unless you there understandings that girl & boy are officially bf & gf, and there is a expressed desire by one for the other to smother them with affection, then keep a decent distance. It's hard to do, I understand. But ultimately, it's better policy.

You know what Chris Rock says on the subject, right? LOL. Funny, I've listed to that concert a hundred times, and never really considered that to be true.

There's another type who tends to be completely oblivious when her male friends are really angling for a romantic relationship.:raises hand: That's me. How many times I've had my girlfriends smack me with what was extremely obvious to them, and my response typically is this, "... no! Don't be silly. We're just friends!!!" :bangs head on desk: I tend to be stoopid with relationships, don't I?

None of this ramble really gives you any concrete advice to help your situation, Gwen (not that you're really asking for any-- it sounds more like you just need to vent, which is fine). But if absolutely nothing else, understanding where the other side is coming from might help you deal a little more gently with your misguided suitors. Both venting, and asking for feedback.

This may sound crass, but if the guy in question really is a pretty decent specimen of humanity, never underestimate the effectiveness of setting him up with someone. (-: Just don't make it too obvious that part of your motivation (besides that fact that he IS your friend and you want to see him happy) is to get him off your back.LOL. :taking notes: ;)


As a guy who's asked the "Why not?" question way too oftenin the past, I've got to disagree with you on this. It's a question to which there's just no good answer. What's she supposed to say? "Well, I WOULD go out with you, but you're too tall and gawky and you've always got something in your teeth." Get real.
Besides, for every guy who asks this question out of an honest desire to understand the other person or in hopes that she'll point out a real problem in his approach so that he doesn't make other women uncomfortable in future romantic exploits, there are ten guys who treat whatever she says as a prescription. "Well, she said she and I are too different, so if I like everything she likes and agree with everything she says, THEN she'll love me!"
exactly.

Answering a question like that in a superficial way is dishonest and disappointing, and answering it in a frank, honest way (during a very sensitive emotional point for the guy, when he's at his least likely to take it well) is just asking to have to reject a repeat attempt in a month or two.Thank you, Mr Hed, Sir. It means a great deal to me that there's at least one fella out there who sees my point of view on this. Yes, I see their view, I just would like for them to see how the question and whatever form of answer is supplied generally brings no satisfactory resolution.

Maybe it would help online if you had a new avatar.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v421/Aquadementia/AlGal.gifROFL!! Gwen E Newman! Brilliant solution to the online problem. Now, about my real-life issues...

Gwen still hasn't returned to this topic yet, and there's a lot of insight into the male mind to be found within. Dude, gimme some time! I've been away one day, and I have a million posts here to read and respond to! :p
I hope she absorbs a lot of it. She's really gotta see this from the other side, because I can't support her first post at all.Trust me, MI, as much as you may think I don't I DO see the other side. That's why I've let things go on as long as they have.

Girls tend to do this a lot.I have seen my fair share of situations where whenever around any guy, they act all flirty and cute and all smiles but when it comes to the inevitable instance of the guy returning the 'attention', they run to sob on their best girlfriend's shoulder, whining about how every guy wants 'more'.I agree. And while I suffer from what many of my friends call the 'cute factor' (why can't it be the 'gorgeous factor?!'), I'm really not big in the flirtation department. One, I'm no good at it. Second, I've always felt that flirting should only be done with those you're no-question-about-it interested in. Because flirting is the trial step to see if they're interested in return.


Let me go as far enough to even say that platonoc friendship between a guy and a girl just isn't meant to be. Physically and emotionally.
This is where I have to completely disagree. I still have a large number of guy friends who have never been interested in me (nor I in them) in anyway other than a good friend.

It's funny really, (and who knows if Guinaevere is like this or not but most girls are) but just SAY WHAT YOU MEAN.Oh, so now we have to learn how to communicate?!? Good grief, you're expectations are exhausting, Pabs. :p

I think the ladder question works best: If a guy and girl are alone, she excuses herself to go to the bathroom and then comes out naked and asks the guy to have sex with her, what will the guy do?You know, at first the prude in me provided a knee-jerk reaction which I won't repeat. But on second thought, that's a great test question to consider.

This thread sends me back to my early high school days. I used to be extremely overweight. Well, i wasn't that bad, but bad enough. I always played the role of the "great friend" and "confidant".Heh. Strange. In high school I wasn't overweight (though I believed myself to be), and I was the girl that the guys went to for 'girl advice.' Now I'm dieting to get back to some sort of respectable shape, and look at what's happened. :sweat:

Just to confuse Zorbrak more<snip>Cool! Let's mess with his mind! :conspiratorial wink:

What the funk? I thought guinaevere was married to that tall guy in all her pictures. Have I been hallucinating again?LOL!! Nope. The only guys in the pictures I've shared here are my two brothers. I tend to keep my pics of me and my friends private.

[Ben]

This is where I have to completely disagree. I still have a large number of guy friends who have never been interested in me (nor I in them) in anyway other than a good friend.

True. With one of my best friends (who is female) we have been asked, "Have you guys ever made out or something?" to which our simultaneous response (I'm not kidding) was "Ewww!" We are such good friends that we know the other's personality implicitly... and we actually might get along pretty well as boyfriend and girlfriend. The thing is, neither one of us is attracted to the other. At all. Small hurdle. :p As a sibling-like relationship, though, it's a lot of fun.

[BrendaBat]

Origionally posted by Guinaevere
For some (to me) inexplicable reason, over the past 6 or 7 months, I've found that in both online and real life relationships, I have to spend more and more time explaining that when I said, "I like you as a friend," I meant just that. A friend. No more.I know how you feel Gwen and I totally understand your need to rant. I've been dealing with the same type of situations off and on ever since I started college. :rolleyes:

I had my first brush with a pushy guy a few months ago. I met him outside one of my classes and he seemed cool. He liked cartoons and anime and was pretty fun to talk to. When he started showing signs that he might be interested (i.e. getting clingy and horning in on the quaility time I prefer to spend with my girlfriends), I mentioned in casual conversation that I had a boyfriend and hoped he would take the hint. He didn't.
When he started buying me gifts, I realized that it was best to just tell him what an ass he is for chasing a girl thats already taken and never speak to him again.
Thanks to that unplesant experience, I have a hard time forming platonic friendships with new guys. :(
Thank goodness I have plenty of left over platonic buddies from high school. :D


Although I have to admit, shooting down a friend I've known and cared about for years would be a lot harder than cutting off ties with some loser I've only known for a few months. Honestly, I'm not quite sure how I'd handle it if one of my male friends suddenly told me he wanted something "more".

[creeper]

There are ways to get over the "friends" hurdle. I've seen it done many times.

[Wounded_Dragon]

I must be insane for diving into a relationship discussion, but anyway...

This may sound crass, but if the guy in question really is a pretty decent specimen of humanity, never underestimate the effectiveness of setting him up with someone. (-: Just don't make it too obvious that part of your motivation (besides that fact that he IS your friend and you want to see him happy) is to get him off your back.
Oh, ouch. That was done to me twice in high school. One of the few times I hated being intelligent, as it became obvious to me what was going on. And the set-ups didn't work either.

One, if the 'friends' line didn't send up the flare, nothing short a frying pan to the head will get it into their skulls. I'm dense and even I get that.

Two, I've personally never seen a nice guy get a date that didn't involve a friend from childhood known for years. I know my best female friend from high school met a nice guy at a summer camp, but I wasn't there to see that.

Three, females aren't as good at picking up subtle as they'd have men believe. As I was, err, dropping hints that I hoped my female best friend would be something more. Were the roses and poems too subtle? :sweat:

Four. This one's petty I suppose, but at least you're attracting single men (I hope). The only females that feel comfortable talking to me are all attached. It's gotten to the point where if a woman talks to me I can safely assume she's married or engaged.

[Weatherman]

First and foremost, thanks to everyone for taking the time to read my ramblings, and for offering so much in the way of insight and opinion and experience. I appreciate more than I can say.

Well, first, I did mean that the in the 'hounding' sense. I have no problems with the initial "why not?"
Yeah, but the truth is, too often, there isn't a logical, explainable way. As I say, women aren't always terribly rational. And it's not just us. Do you like the color blue over green? Why? Why not. Personal preferences aren't able to be dictated out logically. You either are attracted to/interested in someone, or you are not.

Now, there are definate times when you can simply say, "well, I don't like that you're A, B, C & D." The problem with that is, sometimes the guy will try to alter the appearance of his behavior to please the girl, with the hopes that she'll then like him. That very rarely works, because 1) the guy is basically only altering the appearance of his behavior, as I say. and 2) because the girl still isn't attracted to him.
Not always. If were to ask it wouldn't be because I want to get together with the person who rejected me. I would be asking in an honest effort to try and see what others see in me good or bad and figure out if there's a way to make what others see as being bad in me into either something good or to excise that part of myself that made things break down.

Again, you're right in that every situation has different nuances and dynamics. But perhaps I haven't said what I meant to clearly. My thought was this: If the guy hints, pushes, asks, et cetera, and the girl doesn't respond in the affirmative after numberous attempts, then it's very definately, "NO."
In my experience that's not always the case. Alot of girls have just as many problems seeing that someone is interested in them as guys do.

Thank you Weatherman, you're a sweetheart for that! Truth is, this has been going on for months, with my consistantly having to push the guys in question away literally or figuratively. My feelings have been hurt because my very clearly expressed wish to be nothing more than friends has been completely ignored for so long, and I tend to think these guys aren't terrible losses in the friend department.
Heheh, thanks.:o
After that much time, maybe it is time to just cut it off and move one. Just out of curiosity, have you attempted to get one of these guys friends to talk to them about this in a diplomatic way? Not exactly reccomended, but it could be an option of last resort.

[Tash]

...

This one time, in English class, me and some other guys were talking about women. I (somewhat) jokingly said that I'd never get a girlfriend. Then, a friend of mine (female) turns to me and said something (I forget what exactly) that began with "You'd have one if... *something about herself*". Out of shock, I gave her a "What did you just say?" look, and she shut up after that.

If she had acually said something, I'd have said yes. *shrugs* Her fault for over-reading body language.

*walks off*

[Mek]

Fine. Kick me while I'm down.
Hey, it's what I do best.

[Lucky Bob]

Not being well-versed in the romantic arts, let me just throw out a few random, dashed-off thoughts.

1. I have platonic female friends that I would likely never consider a relationship with, and I have platonic female friends who are on the "maybe later" list. The decision is a conscious one. I have enough to get settled in my life before I pursue the unsettled world of love. But hey, I ain't Superman. A little deliberate coy glance from even platonic friends, and I could forget that for a moment (or longer). So, I think that the responsibility is on both sides to maintain proper social decorum.

2. Elmo is evil. Well, maybe not as evil as Bert. But he's still evil. If you play "Elmo in Grouchland" and "The Exorcist" together...there are a lot of startling coincidences. You have been warned.

[Fone Bone]

2. Elmo is evil. Well, maybe not as evil as Bert. But he's still evil. If you play "Elmo in Grouchland" and "The Exorcist" together...there are a lot of startling coincidences. You have been warned.Elmo's not evil. You are.:p

[James]

Elmo's not evil. You are.:p
Can't they both be? ;)

Haven't seen you here in a bit LB, nice to catch you once more.

[Kaner]

I've only read a couple of posts so I might end up sounding like an *******, but toss those guys to the wind guinaevere. Let 'em cool there heels for a couple weeks and if they can't chill tell 'em to use their guilt trips like a suppository.

-JerkBox

[Fone Bone]

Can't they both be? ;)

Haven't seen you here in a bit LB, nice to catch you once more.My plushie Elmo tells me he loves me. (He talks). And he wouldn't lie. Trust me, I can vouch for Elmo's goodness. (I try to be good too.)

[guinaevere]

Not always. If were to ask it wouldn't be because I want to get together with the person who rejected me. I would be asking in an honest effort to try and see what others see in me good or bad<snip>There are definately times and people who actually are looking for the insight for the reasons you suggest.

Just out of curiosity, have you attempted to get one of these guys friends to talk to them about this in a diplomatic way?Yes. In fact, more than once to each person in question. If it weren't for this being the case, I'd have no reason to get frustrated at anyone other than myself.

Not being well-versed in the romantic arts, let me just throw out a few random, dashed-off thoughts....HE LIVES!!!!!!!!! I thought I had done you in with my musical offering. But it's your own fault for bringing up the subject of fine polkas.

So, I think that the responsibility is on both sides to maintain proper social decorum.Responsibility stinks. I want less of it.

2. Elmo is evil. Well, maybe not as evil as Bert.Dude. Bert is bad news.
http://www.bertisevil.tv/img/bertmug_kl.gif
^one of my fav pics^

[sKorpia]

I suddenly blamed the Bronte Sisters and Jane Austin for paving this street. =)

How many times I've had my girlfriends smack me with what was extremely obvious to them, and my response typically is this, "... no! Don't be silly. We're just friends!!!" :bangs head on desk: I tend to be stoopid with relationships, don't I?
Can't speak for the Bronte sisters, but I have to defend Austen here. All of her heroines start off their stories with potential marriage partners. There are no platonic friendships (no, I don't consider Mr. Knightley and Emma's pseudo guardian-child relationship a platonic one) that end in marriages. The case of mistaken intentions in Emma was due to Emma's blindness but she most certainly was not friends with Mr. Elton. So I don't think Austen applies in the "friendship to relationship" case. The marriage game was her main focus, reflected by the society of her time and of which she exclusively writes.

As for your friends openly pointing out the obvious, maybe next time you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss their observations.

In my experience, after a guy declares his affections (subtly or not) to an uninterested girl, the friendship either wanes to a "not such a close friend" level or it completely fades. And I'd personally rather have it this way than try to continue a somewhat close friendship, at least for some time after the confession. Otherwise, it's weird having that extra layer of feelings to work around or through and be considerate of. After all, you can't very well go on about a new guy that you like to this guy that you've just shot down without feeling like a cruel person.

Then again, this is why I'm rather picky about whom I let into my inner circle of friendship. No big loss if the ones on the edge leave.

[guinaevere]

Can't speak for the Bronte sisters, but I have to defend Austen here. All of her heroines start off their stories with potential marriage partners. <snip>Actually, I was thinking along SJJs lines, where popular media (hollywood, novels, et cetera) will depict the waning of one character for another, and because of their intent feelings, their love is eventually returned. (Which is pretty much a staple of the Bronte's and Austin.) And which isn't always the true to life, as we know.

As for your friends openly pointing out the obvious, maybe next time you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss their observations.Yes. I think this may tie in with my problem accepting compliments. But I'm not sure. In any event, I'm trying to be more receptive to such observations.

Otherwise, it's weird having that extra layer of feelings to work around or through and be considerate of. After all, you can't very well go on about a new guy that you like to this guy that you've just shot down without feeling like a cruel person.I'm definately noticing aspect and having a dandy time dealing with it. =\

[DisneyBoy]

Heya Gwen.

First off, beautifully written rant. Comprehensible. Funny. Honest. So much so that I don't think it can be categorized as a 'rant'. Instead, I'll think of it as a much needed conversation. A MNC for short.

I, as a man, am especially glad to hear what it feels like for a woman being on the recieving end of unwanted affection, since I know I've maintained relationships with women for many years despite the fact that I was interested in them. Looking back, and forward to my future relationships, I certainly have no desire to put a friend in the position of having to pretend like everything is okay when things obviously aren't. When things aren't okay, friends need to talk and listen and get through it maturely. If this MNC was a trial run for what you're going to tell your many gentlemen friends, you'll do fine. It was all laid out, clear as could be.

And no, it doesn't make you a monster. You shouldn't feel like you have to play a certain role in anyone's life, and if people treat you like you should, even when you give them time to recover, they're being selfish. Desire is a selfish thing by nature. If they have a relationship with you that's good for them, then they should be happy to return to it when you say "sorry...this is it". If the relationship isn't good for them, then they'll realize it and drift away from you. Either way, it's better that you're honest with them.

...but when a guy offers to be a girl's friend and do things for her...nine times out of ten he really means "I want to be your friend at the moment, but I'm really doing it because you're hot and I want to get closer so we can fall in love." Seriously, if a guy walks up to you and he's being all friendly, no matter who he is...HE WANTS YOU!! DUH!! ALWAYS expect that from now on. It's the universal truth.

I'm not saying this to nit-pick ya, MartianInvader, given our GG-related squabbles, but blanket statements about men's intentions really won't help Gwen understand us any better. As it is, she's got a pretty good handle on human nature anyways, it seems. Physically is a selling point in any relationship, sexuality aside. People want to be friends with people who in some way visually intrigue them or relate to them. I know every man here could think of one woman, if not several, with whom he'd maintained a relationship of some sort that wasn't the result of lust on his part. I'm also sure they could name several women that they kept in touch with, and became close to, with the hopes of it being something more. People are friends for different reasons.

In the spirit of honesty Gwen, I'll admit that I lost a friendship this past year, due to what my friend referred to as "pushing". We'd known each other for years, she and I, and had started becoming close friends, despite her having a very close best friend, and tight circle of gal pals, her sisters included. I liked all her friends just fine, and felt like she was integrating me into her circle. It wasn't fun feeling like a face in her crowd, but I saw some potential for us being friends, long-term. I've never had a friend with which I was close, and after getting to know her and her best friend, I guess I wanted in. Anyhoo, when all her other buddies couldn't make it, she invited me on vacation with her. I was thrilled and found myself there with her sister, and her sister's friend.

I hadn't expected to be the odd man out, but it quickly started to feel that way. The girls would pillow fight, and I'd stand by, laughing, but not getting too invovled, not wanting to seem the perv. There are obviously fewer activities friends of the opposite gender can both partake in, and rolling around the bed pillow fighting would be one of them. That aside, my friend was also noticeably quiet around me. Since I'd known her to be a party animal, this was a surprise, although I noticed she seemed more at lease with her sister and the other gal.

Concerned, I asked her if things were alright between us. Given that she and I were spending summer vacation together, I'd expected that she was hoping to get to know me better, but instead, we weren't talking much at all. She got upset, told me things were fine. She just gets quiet on vacation. I figured, okay, and tried just enjoying the silence. But by the last day of the trip, my nerves were shot. I wasn't fine. I was honest with her, and told her I considered her a best friend and had figured her invitation was her way of saying she also saw us being friends for a long time. It sounds strange. Maybe I just felt us drifting apart on a trip when I hoped we'd be closer together. One thing was clear though...we were no romantically interested in each other. Sure, she's cute, and I'm quite the hottie myself, but we were just too honest and stupid around each other for there to be any kind of 'sexy' allure. She was more like a sister, I guess.

When we came back, I attended her surprise birthday party and was litterally, a face in a very huge crowd. I gave her an album of the pictures I'd taken, and she showed them around, but her mind was clearly not on me. Not that it should have been or anything, but by that point it was obvious something was wrong.

Days later, I called her up, upset. She decided we should talk later, so the next night we did. For three hours. The end result? She was open to us staying friends, but wanted me to realize that firstly, she thought the idea that I felt like I was gradually lowering on her friendship totem pole was silly. We all know who matters most in our lives. There are numbers. Who is the first person you call when you're lover has dumped you? Who do you run to when you have good news. I guess we have different friends for different reasons, but if I had been her "laughing friend" that had changed. I was adrift in a sea, and needed an anchor. She left it up to me, promising that if I chose not to keep in touch, she'd still be civil with me should we happen to cross paths.

I though long and hard about it. And it hurt, feeling like I had failed somehow. Like I had mistaken her interest in me as a person. But in the end, I knew I missed her laugh most. So a week later I called her up and told her so, and we agreed to mend.

Ready for the shocker?



That was in September. It wasn't until December that our paths crossed, and when they did, she threw on a smile and was civil. Only she had never called, never shown any interest in me after I tried to patch things up. No calls. I specifically chose not to call her, and boy was that hard. Everytime I wanted to chill or party, hers was the first name that came to mind. Obviously, my name hadn't popped up in her head much. So I asked her straight out, in a private moment, why she hadn't called me. It wasn't an angry confrontation. Truth be told, I was pretty devastated. Lost a sister here people. She said "I didn't realize I was supposed to call". There it was. The honest truth. I wasn't on her mind, so I promised to try and remove her from mine.

But, being the type of person who tries to try even when he necessarily shouldn't, I brought her a Christmas gift basket filled with treats I specifically knew she liked. Her eyes practically popped out of her head when she saw me. She said thanks and her mother awkwardly encouraged me "not to be a stranger".

That was the last time I saw her/spoke with her. What can be said from all this? Well, I pushed without realizing it. I was afraid I wasn't really much more than a casual passer-by in her life, and was proven correct. What I blame her for, and this really is the only thing, is saying that we were fine, and then ditching me. She left me hanging for four months, and made no attempt at reconciliation. Then again, I can't blame her for that either, can I? If I was a 'whatever' friend causing drama in her life, it's understandable that she'd just ingore me, nothing lost. Me? I think about her quite a bit. I still wonder if I should pick up the phone, but really, I won't let myself. She's sending a message. So I'm understanding and respecting that. Besides, I deserve friends who won't austracize me if I tell them I feel like we're drifting apart.

So, thanks Gwen, for providing an outlet for me to get that off my chest. Not a story of romance, but one related to pushing. Sometimes we push people in ways we don't realize. Sometimes it's best just to say goodbye. Sometimes it's best to actually try to fix things. But it's never best to sit around feeling like you're to blame. In my case, I just have to stop allowing myself to feel like that, and learn something from that strange and abrupt ending. You Gwen? You need to tell them where things are at. Try not to be mad. If you see a future friendship with these guys, tell them that, but be clear that's it. Leave it up to them. My friend was very good about that. She just wasn't good at keeping up her end of the friendship once the storm had passed. That's important too.

I don't think I'm being helpful here. Sorry if I'm not. This post? THIS is a rant. Next time I'll try for a MNC.

[Toss]

you rock Gwen! finally, a girl who doesn't "NEED" a boyfriend, perhaps doesn't even want one! I totally know how you feel. only the problem I face are with girls, not guys. (no not in the nasty way, sometimes I just want my little friends to leave me alone.)

[Chris Wood]

Manipulative types are always a pain, although I'm not quite sure that males lead in that department.

Chris Rock's sentiments are fairly accurate. While it is not impossible for women and men to have truly platonic relationships, it is rare and generally requires some sort of barrier, such as one person being in a relationship or obviously unattractive.

Otherwise, men have ulterior motives the majority of the time. I recall my sister telling me once about this "sensitive" guy who listened to her ramble on about her problems in the middle of the night. I thought "You idiot!" Sensitive or not, he was obviously trying to score brownie points.

Anyway, from what I've observed friendship is generally a lousy way to start relationships. It's always awkward to try to make that transition. Better to just go straight for the jugular.

[mikestorm]

I know a guy exactly like you describe. He diliberately chooses not to acknowledge the lack of reciprocation, and instead works on the assumption that he simply hasn't given her enough opportunity to acknowledge his advances, and paradoxally becomes even more overt.

You pretty much need to say to him "I'm not interested in you. Not now; not ever." after which he imediately responds with a mixture of insistence that she misunderstood him, and latent hostility towards her to prove it to everyone else who happened to be watching.

As a casual bystander it's both incredibly painful and amazingly enthralling to witness. I just say to myself over and over: Just. Stop. Talking. but he doesn't and consequently the girl feels the need to kick her obvious noninterest up a notch.

The worst part is he's developed a bit of a reputation. Girls either avoid him or are mean to him right off the bat in order to deliberately get off on the wrong foot with him.

He really is a nice guy (when women aren't involved). The thing is these guys you're encountering would act the exact same way with any girl who gave them the level of attention you have. It's not that you attract them, it could be that you might not rebuff them as quickly as other girls.

Besides, you dont' have to tell me that those guys don't mean squat, as you and I both know what we have is the real deal, and I can feel in my bones I'm very close to finally getting you to see the light. Right Gwen?


Gwen?

[Chris Wood]

Besides, you dont' have to tell me that those guys don't mean squat, as you and I both know what we have is the real deal, and I can feel in my bones I'm very close to finally getting you to see the light. Right Gwen?


Gwen?

Hmm... maybe being more aggressive would help.

[guinaevere]

First off, beautifully written rant. Comprehensible. Funny. Honest. So much so that I don't think it can be categorized as a 'rant'. Instead, I'll think of it as a much needed conversation. A MNC for short.Wow. You're my new best friend. :D Thank you. I tend to get carried away sometimes, and fear I don't communicate my feelings very well. So I appreciate that.

When things aren't okay, friends need to talk and listen and get through it maturely. If this MNC was a trial run for what you're going to tell your many gentlemen friends, you'll do fine. It was all laid out, clear as could be. Update. Two down. Two to go.

And no, it doesn't make you a monster. You shouldn't feel like you have to play a certain role in anyone's life, and if people treat you like you should, even when you give them time to recover, they're being selfishPart of the problem I have, is that my natural personality is to embrace people (not physically, but figuratively). I'm good at making others feel at ease and comfortable. And I know the hurt a lot of people suffer, and that there are some seriously hurtful people out there. I don't ever want to be the cause of another persons hurt, I don't ever want to reject someone because they're different.

Back when I managed a Mrs Fields Cookies, there was a caregiver with 3 adults with special needs. Also in line, were just some high school or college kids. One of the adults was saying 'hello' to the kids in line, and they just totally blew him off, and were even pretty rude about it. That alone broke my heart. I mean, why? He's being friendly to you. Do you get off on being mean to him in return?!

My point? Well... I'm not entirely sure. :sweat: I guess, it's just that it's nice to be nice to people. It doesn't cost you anything, it doesn't hurt you. And it's how I believe we're supposed to be to each other.

So, when I have to finally put my foot down and lay out boundaries, I feel like I'm being a mean person.


In the spirit of honesty Gwen, I'll admit that I lost a friendship this past year, due to what my friend referred to as "pushing". <snip>Sorry to hear this, DisneyBoy. It sucks to lose any friend.


There are obviously fewer activities friends of the opposite gender can both partake in, and rolling around the bed pillow fighting would be one of them.Not that it helps or makes a difference at this point, but it doesn't sound as if they were being very sympathetic to the fact that you were there, and obviously shouldn't join in their frolic. :shrug:


Sure, she's cute, and I'm quite the hottie myself, but we were just too honest and stupid around each other for there to be any kind of 'sexy' allure. She was more like a sister, I guess.LOL! That right there, is the very foundation of so many of my friendships. :sweat: But you know, I like it that way.

There are numbers. Who is the first person you call when you're lover has dumped you? Who do you run to when you have good news. I guess we have different friends for different reasons <snip> Very interesting point. I'll have to work that into a lesson, because you're absolutely right. There are roles that we all need to have filled by our friends.

Truth be told, I was pretty devastated. Lost a sister here people. She said "I didn't realize I was supposed to call". There it was. The honest truth. oh... Ouch.

What I blame her for, and this really is the only thing, is saying that we were fine, and then ditching me. Not the act of a bold person.

Besides, I deserve friends who won't austracize me if I tell them I feel like we're drifting apart. You deserve and I'd imagine, you'd want friends who don't treat you like a pariah.

I don't think I'm being helpful here. Sorry if I'm not. This post? THIS is a rant. Next time I'll try for a MNC.Didn't seem like a rant to me. I appreciated it a great deal.

you rock Gwen! finally, a girl who doesn't "NEED" a boyfriend, perhaps doesn't even want one!:D I definately seem to be in the minority. A lot of the women at the center consider me some sort of heroine to the female gender. We've had quite a few discussions on this subject. :sweat:

sometimes I just want my little friends to leave me alone.)From someone who values privacy more than just about anything, and doesn't get much of it (because of having to take care of Mum), I can totally understand that desire.

Manipulative types are always a pain, although I'm not quite sure that males lead in that department.I'll agree with that.

It's always awkward to try to make that transition. Better to just go straight for the jugular.:D I like that attitude.

[Mek]

Hey, some of us, like me for instance, would do anything to have at least one friend RL: female OR male. -_-;

Not that it's any excuse for them being pushy, but c'mon...

[SSJPabs]

Once again, let me post the rules. These maybe crass and crude but they do indeed, work.

(Guy)Rules:

1) If you are looking for something stable, don't go for someone totally different. If you are completely different it is VERY unlikely that you will be able to build anything lasting without a lot of effort. You need common ground.

2) Some magazines say that you can got out with anyone if you say/do the right things, wear the right clothes or use the right body language. This is a lie. They say this to sell magazines. If someone doesn't want to go out with you - they don't want to go out with you! If you are their friend, or they say they can talk to you like they would another girl stop. Realize you are dead in the water as far as dating goes and there's nothing you can do about it. Ever!

3) Don't be a doormat. The kind of girl who likes that is not the kind of girl you want to be with. In fact, if you are a "nice guy" you can act like a jerk at the beginning. Note that I said ACT. If you actually are a jerk prepare yourself for lots of one-and-done's. If you are a "nice guy" that acts like a jerk, you will create the illusion of confidence (both for yourself and outwardly) at the beginning and can reveal your nicer side as the relationship progresses.

4) You become friends with a girl to date her friends. Not her. THIS IS THE BEST WAY TO FIND DATES! If you date or TRY to date her, the circle breaks and then all her friends will not have anything to do with you until they are no longer her friends!

5)If you can't make friends... you are just screwed. Learn how before you attack dating because you've got other issues to tackle first.

[guinaevere]

I just say to myself over and over: Just. Stop. Talking. Heh. That sounds like what most of my friends keep saying to me. I don't get it. Is it a joke or something? :D Okay, so I talk too much.

It's not that you attract them, it could be that you might not rebuff them as quickly as other girls.Possibly. And if I cause my own problems, so be it. I still can't just be rude to someone who deserves a kind word & smile.

Besides, you dont' have to tell me that those guys don't mean squat, as you and I both know what we have is the real deal, and I can feel in my bones I'm very close to finally getting you to see the light. Right Gwen?


Gwen?You know, we were *this* close to making it work, and you have to go run off with the Patriots. Things will never be the same between us.

Hmm... maybe being more aggressive would help.:Bursts out laughing and whaps Desslar with paper fan:

3) Don't be a doormat. The kind of girl who likes that is not the kind of girl you want to be with.Truer words were never spoken.

In fact, if you are a "nice guy" you can act like a jerk at the beginning. Note that I said ACT. If you actually are a jerk prepare yourself for lots of one-and-done's. Eh. By the same logic, if a guy can act like a jerk to you, stay far, far away.

And Mek, if it's any consolation, you're not alone, though you may feel it. My younger brother (my very best friend) is the funniest, brightest guy around, and really he has no friends aside from me. Deserves a whole lot better, that's for certain.

[Weatherman]

This one's going to have alot of cutting and pasting.:sweat:
DB, man, just tonight I had something really similar to that happen to me. It really hurts to learn that all of the effort you put into something was, in at least some ways, wasted becusae they just don't seem to care about you the way you care about them.
But, being the type of person who tries to try even when he necessarily shouldn't, I brought her a Christmas gift basket filled with treats I specifically knew she liked. Her eyes practically popped out of her head when she saw me. She said thanks and her mother awkwardly encouraged me "not to be a stranger".I did virtually the same thing for two of my female friends. Needless to say, it didn't work like I had hoped either time.:sad:

Besides, I deserve friends who won't austracize me if I tell them I feel like we're drifting apart.One, it's ostracize, and two, AMEN!


He really is a nice guy (when women aren't involved). The thing is these guys you're encountering would act the exact same way with any girl who gave them the level of attention you have. It's not that you attract them, it could be that you might not rebuff them as quickly as other girls.Alot of people would probably say the same thing about me right now. It really really sucks to me in that kind of position.

Part of the problem I have, is that my natural personality is to embrace people (not physically, but figuratively). I'm good at making others feel at ease and comfortable. And I know the hurt a lot of people suffer, and that there are some seriously hurtful people out there. I don't ever want to be the cause of another persons hurt, I don't ever want to reject someone because they're different.

Back when I managed a Mrs Fields Cookies, there was a caregiver with 3 adults with special needs. Also in line, were just some high school or college kids. One of the adults was saying 'hello' to the kids in line, and they just totally blew him off, and were even pretty rude about it. That alone broke my heart. I mean, why? He's being friendly to you. Do you get off on being mean to him in return?!

My point? Well... I'm not entirely sure. :sweat: I guess, it's just that it's nice to be nice to people. It doesn't cost you anything, it doesn't hurt you. And it's how I believe we're supposed to be to each other.I can say that means you're a godo person. You don't just drop people out of your life the seccond something goes a little wrong betwene you and them and you believe that everyone deserves to be treated decently if they haven't done anything to warrant being treated another way.

If you can't make friends... you are just screwed. Learn how before you attack dating because you've got other issues to tackle first I'll disagree with your other points to a degree, but I'll agree whole heartedly with that one. You can't have a girlfriend/boyfriend without having friends period first.



As I said a little ways up, I had what I thought to be a good friendship go through it's final death manuvers tonight, and it really sucks when you find out that not only do you not mean what you thought you ment to someone but that all of that person's friends have been working against you to try and force you out of that person's life any way they can. Bit of a paradox, you want to be friends with someone but they surround themselves with people who don't want you to be that person's friend, so is this person you're friend or not?>_<

Good luck dealing with these guys Gwen. I'm sure you'll find the best way to get them off your back without hurting them. Hurting people never really does any good.

[mikestorm]

I still can't just be rude to someone who deserves a kind word & smile.I couldn't agree more; in fact I smile maniacally during most of my waking hours, the point is, however, that nowadays there's not enough of that going around, and that may be part of the problem. Those starved for attention (these words might be on the strong side and I'm sorry if I offend anyone) might misconstrue your small gesture.

If I were to make a list of people who practice random acts of kindness, you'd be at the top. I know this firsthand. The last thing I want to do is to suggest you curb your enthusiasm and let apathy set in, effectively squelching one of the nicest things that make Gwen Gwen.

I'm just suggesting that you first hone your "guydar" to first determine which of the three Andrea Beaumont categories a given guy falls into, and then err on the side of caution. It even kills me to suggest this as it erodes the selfnessness of your demeanor, but concern for your self preservation (and sanity) takes precedence.

[Lucky Bob]

Chris Rock's sentiments are fairly accurate. While it is not impossible for women and men to have truly platonic relationships, it is rare and generally requires some sort of barrier, such as one person being in a relationship or obviously unattractive.
Oh.


:sad:

[Mynd Hed]

In fact, if you are a "nice guy" you can act like a jerk at the beginning. Note that I said ACT. If you actually are a jerk prepare yourself for lots of one-and-done's. If you are a "nice guy" that acts like a jerk, you will create the illusion of confidence (both for yourself and outwardly) at the beginning and can reveal your nicer side as the relationship progresses.

I'm going to have to beg to differ and call this bad advice. It might have some short-term effectiveness with the sort of girl who unconsciously looks for jerks, but those types of girls tend to have issues, and there are only three likely outcomes:

* The guy does as you say and "reveals his nicer side." Consciously or unconsciously realizing that he now lacks the very qualities that attracted her in the first place, the girl loses interest and either breaks things off or fails to work to maintain the relationship, ending in a mutual or guy-initiated breakup.

* The girl's self-esteem problems that lead her to be attracted to a jerky-acting guy in the first place eventually drive the guy crazy, and he breaks things off.

Or, rarest but worst of all:

* The guy, after a long period of being rewarded for jerky behavior and punished by lack of attraction from his lady friend for nice-guy behavior, actually becomes the sort of jerk he thought he was just pretending to be.

The kind of girls that nice guys really want to date, the smart, mature kind that have outgrown their adolescent attraction to bad boys, won't be attracted to a jerky attitude in the first place, even if it is supposed to be an act.

[James]

I agree with Mynd. BAAAD ADVICE. :D

Never be anything other than who you are because:

1. You'll have to drop the act sometime and then what? You won't be the person she initially liked, in fact you'll be the opposite. In some enviroments, that will be a change in the power balance and she may either naturally or consciously walk over you. You both have to know how you both are as people, distort that and you distort that balance between a couple.
2. You may think "acting like a jerk" is easy, but you'll probably get the jerk bit right, but not the confident bit.
3. You are mixing confidence and self worth up with being a loud and superficial idiot.
4. You are betraying what makes you, you for a quick fix.
5. Be yourself and you'll most likely find someone more suitable than if you try and be a catagory of man you are not. Even if you are lucky enough to pull it off and look like the confident "jerk", you'll attracting a girl that's not going to be suitable.

Advice:

Be yourself. Be PROUD of who you are. Afterall, what you do and how you act is how you generally like to be day to day. Maybe you might need to be a little more confident, or better presented, but these are tiny elements of ettiquette that shouldn't change what you are all about.

No woman is worth trying to be someone else for. That's just silly.

Don't be a walkover in a relationship. Be honest with what you expect from a relationship. Don't bend over backwards to please a lady just because you feel if you don't she'll walk. If she's that superficial she's not worth it.

Treat her as you expect to be treated yourself in all situations. That pretty much goes with how you treat anyone. :p

The world owes you NOTHING. Don't get into a tantrum if things don't go your way or expect that you owed detailed explanations/diagrams as to what went wrong. Again, referring to the above, would you honestly feel comfortable if a girl constantly interrogated you to what she did wrong? Is that attractive? Could you honestly define the singular aspect which meant it went wrong and can you totally define whose to blame? The answer is very likely to be no.

Remember, life goes on. Fail once, doesn't mean you'll always fail. Nor do I believe there is ONE person for you. And even if there was, deal. Don't whine, live and move on. Someone else will appear.

This all comes from personal mistakes, personal success', watching other people's mistakes, other people's success', a little reading and a LOT of common sense.

Don't make life more complicated than it is by playing games. Just be yourself and be happy with who you are. If you aren't happy, maybe you should look at how you can rectify that before trying to make someone else like you. Self discovery is a key to self confidence (not in a jerk way) and that is a key to a good relationship.

[Chris Wood]

Oh.


:sad:

Ummmmm, nothing personal directed at anybody there. I'm just saying that if you find your aquaintance of the opposite sex to be attractive then a completely platonic relationship is generally difficult.

[Weatherman]

Ummmmm, nothing personal directed at anybody there. I'm just saying that if you find your aquaintance of the opposite sex to be attractive then a completely platonic relationship is generally difficult.
I can be, but it doesn't have to be. You just have to tell yourself, over and over if need be, that it's not going to happen like that and be thankful that they even want to be yoru friend. I'll personally testify, it's not easy, but it can be worth it. And not to get up any false hopes or anything but, who knows what the future holds? It does help though if the friend who's on the other side of the equation is mature enough to not react badly to a confesion like that.

[EinBebop]

Man, I wander away from TZ for a couple of weeks and I miss all this fun.

Ode to Guinaevere
A Hopeless Man's Lament
(semi-autobiographical)

My brain sees you pushing me away, but my heart
knows that you long for me as I for you.
The bond of friendship that we share
has become a wall to what might be.

"War!" I declare. "The barrier must fall!"
Powered by the strength of my resentment
I wield my mighty Sledgehammer of Love
and throw myself upon the accursed wall.

Surely now my beloved guinaevere will acknowledge
the undeniable power of true love embodied in this weapon.
But looking up from the platonic rubble I find
that dearest guinaevere has fled.

I curse again, but this time at my own foolishness.
I was too clumsy with my love;
I did not swing it with the precision and skill
deserving of one so perfect.

I sit upon the rubble and wait for my body
to join my soul in death, for having been
in the presence of Joy herself... Wait,
how did I not notice a beauty even greater?

The gods have seen the pureness of my heart and sent
one even fairer than ------------ but I remember not your name.
I have put all my childish fantasies behind me because
I have surely never known true love before this moment.

I again take up again the Sledgehammer of Love.
Love must conquer all, and so I must cling
desperately to it and destroy anything
that does not submit to its holiness.

[BrendaBat]

Nice poem EinBebop! :)

Origionally posted by Weatherman
As I said a little ways up, I had what I thought to be a good friendship go through it's final death manuvers tonight, and it really sucks when you find out that not only do you not mean what you thought you ment to someone but that all of that person's friends have been working against you to try and force you out of that person's life any way they can. Bit of a paradox, you want to be friends with someone but they surround themselves with people who don't want you to be that person's friend, so is this person you're friend or not?>_<That reminds me of an epiphany my friend Matt and I had after one of his break-ups. You know that old saying "When you marry someone, you're marrying their family as well"? We discovered that, when you date someone, you're also dating all of their close friends (especially when, like us, you're a college student and the only time you get to see each other is on campus when said friends are nearby).
Anyway, Matt HATED all of his girlfriends pals (and they all hated him, too)
and he and his girlfriend had a lot of arguements when she wanted to invite them to hang out or he insulted them. This wasn't the only factor in their break-up, but it was a big one.

The moral of this ramble is: Don't date someone if you can't stand their friends. It probably won't work out.

[Weatherman]

Nice poem EinBebop! :)

That reminds me of an epiphany my friend Matt and I had after one of his break-ups. You know that old saying "When you marry someone, you're marrying their family as well"? We discovered that, when you date someone, you're also dating all of their close friends (especially when, like us, you're a college student and the only time you get to see each other is on campus when said friends are nearby).
Anyway, Matt HATED all of his girlfriends pals (and they all hated him, too)
and he and his girlfriend had a lot of arguements when she wanted to invite them to hang out or he insulted them. This wasn't the only factor in their break-up, but it was a big one.

The moral of this ramble is: Don't date someone if you can't stand their friends. It probably won't work out.
No kidding, and my situation was only a friend. But we all have to live with the consequences of our decisions, and my former friend will have to live with having chosen them over me, though I can get along with people I don't like just fine. I just don't make any extra effort to, well, care about them.

[Chris Wood]

[Weatherman]I can be, but it doesn't have to be. You just have to tell yourself, over and over if need be, that it's not going to happen like that

You can tell yourself whatever, but if the attraction is there your thoughts are still going to come around to the same thing.

and be thankful that they even want to be yoru friend.

Whoa, let's pump up the ego a little there.

[guinaevere]

Ein, I love the poem!!

Whoa, let's pump up the ego a little there.:D I think all Weatherman was meaning was to be thankful for the Blessings we *do* have. I don't think he was saying "oh, I'm such a total hoser, no one wants to be friends with me."

[Weatherman]

:D I think all Weatherman was meaning was to be thankful for the Blessings we *do* have. I don't think he was saying "oh, I'm such a total hoser, no one wants to be friends with me."
More or less, thanks. :)