Do suicides go to Hell?

[EinBebop]

I've got my own opinions which I'll state eventually, but I'm curious what others think.

[True Noir]

That's what I was taught. I was taught that suicide is a sin and that they go to hell. I really never got to into it or anything so that's all I know. Funny thing though(not really funny) I just remembered, suicide isn't illegal in Japan.

[JohnCrichton]

There is no Hell. :p

[Czar Gato]

Theoretically, yes, IMO. However, you shouldn't ever assume someone who committed suicide went to hell, because you don't know what state of mind they were in at the time. If they had perfect reconciliation between the act and death, or if they were mentally ill or not thinking clearly, then that could effect where they go. Just what I think, though.

[Kury Wagner]

Earth is a living hell. . . but according ot the Bible, yes. If you take a life (even your own) it's an unforgivable sin. . . But I'm not Christian, so I'm probably not the best one to ask. . .

[Frank Castle]

Yep if you kill yourself you go to hell. That's what I believe.

[Aquadementia]

If worrying that they may go to hell for committing suicide stops someone from doing it, then they should go on believing that. Use whatever works.

[Rafeal v1.0]

Well, suicide is a sin i guess, and since you cant repent from commiting that sin, you go to hell.

[Cartman]

My answer is no, they don't. I personally don't believe in Hell (at least as a place).

[Eddie G.]

From a religous stand point, yes.. But I was yelled out for asking, "Why would God not like gays if he made them?", insisting my dead dog had much a soul as people do, and that there actually is evidence to support evolution so I never saw eye to eye with what I was told in Sunday school.

First off I find the idea of very strict rules for what is a sin and what is not a sin to be a flawed system. Murder, lying, and stealing all can be good things. And it has nothing to do with the ends justifying the means, there are situations where all these things are what need to be done (In other words good). So suicide as in the act is not by definition a sin since there can be situations where suicide is right. For example if someone were to sacrafice his life for another that would without a doubt be the right thing to do.

So no suicide is not really a sin as in it is at least not always a sin. But I'm guessing Ein that you're talking about the most common "Life sucks" type of suicide. For one thing I never fell into that whole "It's the coward's way out" bull because at the end of the day it is bull. I felt that when I was depressed I had the right to consider killing myself, and if anyone said I was just beeing a coward I would feel that they really just don't understand what I was going through. This is why I can't consider me not killing myself eventhough I wanted to proof that anyone can work through it, at the end of the day I don't know what the people who did kill themselves were going through. I bet a lot went through the same stuff I did and a lot had it better than me. But there are a lot of people who didn't have the family and will to survive that kept me alive, so personally I can't say anything against these people because I don't know what they went through. I also feel that since God either does not exist or lives in the shadows we really don't owe anyone our life, it belongs to us.

For personal stanards I would never kill myself. It goes against who I am, I have a strong moral code that involves helping others, killing myself would go against that personal code. I also live off people, I just like being surrounded by people. Most people have some fear of public, for me heaven would be me just talking to an audience forever. But I'm getting a little off topic, the thing is that these things are personal. It's pretty unfair for me to expect others to live up to standards that I set for myself.

In the end before you commit suicide there are two questions you need to weigh...
Is there another weigh?
Who would I be hurting?
These questions saved me, and I'm sure they could save other people.

So anyway...
No, the act of suicide is not a sin.
Yes, there are some direct effects caused by the suicide victim that hurt other people.
No I do not think it is right to judge suicide victims to harshly.
Yes, I would be ashamed to kill myself.
No, I don't hold others to this standard.

[FredNash]

Please refer to appropriate sections of What Dreams My Come (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0765308703/qid=1099691450/sr=8-5/ref=pd_csp_5/104-8664612-5458309?v=glance&s=books&n=507846/toonzone03).

[Speedy Boris]

Well, suicide is a sin i guess, and since you cant repent from commiting that sin, you go to hell. Sorry to play devil's advocate, but there's a flaw to that statement. If someone were to sin RIGHT BEFORE they die, I seriously doubt God would condemn you to Hell just because you didn't have a chance to repent. Like let's say you said a curse word under your breath and a jet plane drops on your head. I highly doubt God will say, "Oh, SORRY, tough cookies."

Having said that, I believe suicide is wrong. Whether you would go to Hell or not after doing so is a gray area (I mean, is it even addressed in the Bible directly?), but I'll just say that, if you do it because of selfish reasons (i.e. not suicide to save another's life), you're not going to get many brownie points. ;)

[Eddy]

Although it is considered a sin, I would say no. Killing yourself isn't a good thing to do, but I don't think if you do it you automatically go to Hell.

I'm supposed to be Catholic, but a lot of my beliefs seem to be somewhat different. For example, I don't think homosexuals go to Hell either.

[SirLemming]

Earth is a living hell. . . but according ot the Bible, yes. If you take a life (even your own) it's an unforgivable sin. . . But I'm not Christian, so I'm probably not the best one to ask. . .You're right about the latter portion of your statement.

Many people seem to think the Bible says that suicide is a direct ticket to Hell. That's not true. This belief is likely based on a very technical rule-based (and therefore wrong) theology. I'm guessing the idea behind it is that you don't get a chance to ask for forgiveness for suicide. But I'm pretty sure that salvation doesn't hang on whether or not you confess each and every one of your sins, specifically. Sure, people try to account for this by saying "forgive all of my sins" when they get saved and then every once in a while after that, but does that really determine whether or not you go to Hell? I don't think so.

I believe that suicide is a sin, but heck, there are lots of sins. It's not right to do, but it doesn't cancel your salvation, either. I don't see why it would. It's one of many bad judgment calls that one can make. Salvation shouldn't be reduced to such a technical thing, because that's contradictory to its very nature.

[Duke Psychology]

Sorry to play devil's advocate, but there's a flaw to that statement. If someone were to sin RIGHT BEFORE they die, I seriously doubt God would condemn you to Hell just because you didn't have a chance to repent. Like let's say you said a curse word under your breath and a jet plane drops on your head. I highly doubt God will say, "Oh, SORRY, tough cookies."

Having said that, I believe suicide is wrong. Whether you would go to Hell or not after doing so is a gray area (I mean, is it even addressed in the Bible directly?), but I'll just say that, if you do it because of selfish reasons (i.e. not suicide to save another's life), you're not going to get many brownie points. ;)
i believe the exact same thing.

[Conan-san]

I well past gave up trying to figgure out the mechanics of Christianity/religion as I seemed to go round in circles.

[creeper]

If "hell" actually is real then I would have to say no. Good people are good regardless. If someone is in such saddness that they kill themselves, then it's really up to what they've done why they were here on earth rather the act of killing themselves that would determine whether they went to hell or not.

Anyways, heaven and hell, are probaly concepts made up to make death easier. They thought that one will go to paradise makes the transition a lot easier. As for the concept of Hell it gives one the opportunity to make up for sins before they die.

I don't really believe in the Bible as it was written by man and most likely altered from it's original state. We have no guarantee whether it was and "act of God" or and act of men, who knew that people are sheep and will believe just about anything if you give it supernatural origins. Anyways, if the bible was real it would make more sense for God to come up with a current version, out of a bolt of lightning for every one of his followers. That way there would be almost no dispute. Alas we get the altered version.

The simple answer is don't kill yourself and you don't have to worry about going to hell. Life is what you make of it. This by the way is coming from a guy who has tried many times to kill himself. Not worth the stress on everyone else. Whether I'm happy or not I like to see others happy.

[Toss]

suicide is a sin, yes, but if the suicidist was Christian, they probably won't go to hell. I mean, God looks at all sins the same way. Stealing a cookie from the cookie jar is as bad as murdrer. and if you steal a cookie from the cookie jar, you proabably won't go to hell. I think it's the same with suicide. you probably won't go to hell, you will, however, have to answer to God for the murder you've commited, just the same as if you'd stolen a cookie from the cookie jar.

[Master Moron]

There is no Hell. :p

I agree. I believe when we die we're just...dead...death sucks...

But, you know I remember reading somewhere that maybe all the worthy people have already been taken off to heaven without us knowing it, and we're all in purgatory and we don't even know it.

[HumanoidTyphoon]

As far as I can remember from the Catholic point of view no. I mean ask yourself this if Mother Teresa commits suicide would she then be sent to hell? No, your fate is decided on the type of person you are not one single act. God is a forgiving being and wouldn't send you to hell unless you deny him.

[Czar Gato]

suicide is a sin, yes, but if the suicidist was Christian, they probably won't go to hell. I mean, God looks at all sins the same way. Stealing a cookie from the cookie jar is as bad as murdrer. and if you steal a cookie from the cookie jar, you proabably won't go to hell. I think it's the same with suicide. you probably won't go to hell, you will, however, have to answer to God for the murder you've commited, just the same as if you'd stolen a cookie from the cookie jar.Gotta disagree here. I think there are two different levels of sin- venial and mortal. Stealing a cookie froom a cookie jar would be a venial sin, murder a mortal one. The former doesn't kill the grace in your soul, the latter does.

However this is a Catholic point of view, and other Christian Churches have other ways of looking at it I'm sure.

[Obi]

If you take a life (even your own) it's an unforgivable sin. There's a difference between murder and killing.


And the only unforgivable sin, as far as I know, is not accepting Christ.

[Cartman]

I agree. I believe when we die we're just...dead...death sucks...

But, you know I remember reading somewhere that maybe all the worthy people have already been taken off to heaven without us knowing it, and we're all in purgatory and we don't even know it.
I believe that Heaven and Hell are more states of mind than places. I just cannot see any justification for eternal damnation. I don't believe even murderers deserve to spend eternity in a "place" like Hell. I think punishing them on Earth is good enough (life in prison).

I'd like to think we go somewhere when we die. I just don't think we need to spend a whole afterlife of eternal damnation. Eternity is, well, forever.

I know a lot of people will disagree with me on the issue, but that's fine. This is an interesting topic and it's nice to see different people's viewpoints.

[TimTwoFace]

I know the official Catholic standpoint is that if you commit suicide, you're hellbound. Why? The most precious gift God gave you is your life, and to turn back at him and say that you don't want it, it's a tremendous insult.

My own personal viewpoint is similar to that, but I don't think you'd go straight to hell anyway. There's always purgatory, there's always a chance to still reconcile in the afterlife, and there are actually some situations in which being forced to kill yourself is the lesser of two evils.

-Tim

[Obi]

Interesting thought: what if someone killed themselves like a samurai in an effort to restore honor to their family/friends/whatever?

[The Wolverine]

Earth is a living hell. . .

Exactly.

[TimTwoFace]

The samurai way of life didn't clash with Christianity for quite some time. Unfortunately I'm not too knowledgeable on Japanese history and the major religious beliefs of the country - but it'd be interesting to see what that unique point of view would be.

-Tim

[Sandoz]

The Catholic teaching on suicide has changed. It was originally said that those who commit suicide go to hell because it is a murder they cannot repent for. Today it's been recognized that since a sin like murder is only mortal if you know exactly what you're doing and do it anyway, and most people who commit suicide are not in their right mind when they do it, it's not always a "go straight to hell, do not collect $200" ticket. And that's what I agree with.

[Mr. Pedro]

I was thinking, aren't we all slowly committing suicide with poor diet, lack of exercise and a plethora of bad habits?

Back on topic though, this actually came up during a youth class that my church had a few years back (Catholic, BTW). I don't recall exactly what the verdict was, but it was explained that people who are suicidal are often not of sound mind (tunnel vision, I suppose) or are possibly be mentally ill. They would be defined as "sick" and while this is no excuse for suicide, it does make the point that the individual had little or no control over his or her frame of mind when the suicide did occur.

I personally don't feel that suicide is a one-way ticket to Hell. It just sounds so unfair, especially if it was a benevolent, God-loving person. I seriously doubt that the rest of my family feels that suicides are Hellbound (as there have been several members of the family that have sadly taken their own lives in recent years).

*Sandoz pretty much just made the point that I was hoping to make, but I worked too hard to get all of these thoughts down just to throw them away*

[Clayface]

I don't believe in unforgivable sins or hell. So, ummmmm. NO.

[James]

I'm amazed how little sympathy has been shown here for those who commit such an act. Religious lore aside, has no one any empathy for people who are driven to suicide?

Suicide is a horrible thing. Yes, it leaves a terrible bereavement on the family, a horrific hell for them, but consider how far gone a person must be to feel so little for their family to care? Imagine being so mentally ill, that even those you love no longer matter.

For many this is the state of suicide, a mental illness.

We don't damn people for depression, so we shouldn't damn them for any other form of mental illness.

Personally I believe if there is a god of any form, he'll be a little more understanding than his human scribes. Suicide, like any form of depression is a mental issue which is very hard to deal with. It's easy for those who don't suffer to judge and declare "how could he do that to his family" without trying to understand the mental state of that person.

I think as we become more learned as a species we should becoming more understanding to medical condition and human fraility. Rather than condemn it, be it by our religion or by our own opinion, we should feel pity for those who are so ill they want to take their own life.

IMO, We need to stop judging people by our standards of living and look at the issue more objectively. Christianity teaches not to judge and to show compassion, I worry when I don't see much of it going around on such an issue.

I won't be replying much to this thread as I think it's a dead topic. Like politics, it's one which people have their view and being so personal, it's unalterable. Therefore such threads just exist to try and prove our view is more relevant than someone elses. *shrug* My apologies for sounding grouchy on this, I've learned sadly that when it comes to religion and politics, there is little that changes and we tread a dull path of declaration and explanation.

I needed to add mine simply because I think it was a viewpoint needing reflection, I don't expect it to change anyone's opinion here which, if I was utterly honest, is disheartening, but not unexpected. ;)

All the best - whatever your opinion on this subject maybe. :)

[Lord Dalek]

They did in Dante. Are you reading that by any chance?

[Zebi]

My belief has always been in reincarnation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation). There is no Heaven or Hell, but a period of rest and reflection between incarnations. A person who commits suicide would not face eternal damnation, but might end up facing the issues they were trying to escape in a future incarnation.

[ThePeterNetwork]

First of all, suicide is a bad thing, and nobody should commit it for any reason whatsoever.

As for the existence of hell, I believe it does exist. That is why when I die from my heart attack at 50, and I'm denied entry into heaven, I will choose to become a ghost.

[screw on head]

Suicide is a horrible thing. Yes, it leaves a terrible bereavement on the family, a horrific hell for them, but consider how far gone a person must be to feel so little for their family to care? Imagine being so mentally ill, that even those you love no longer matter.
Someone at my High School committed suicide last year. I knew him only in passing, but he was a good person and I have a very hard time believing he would go to hell because of such a desperate, horrible act. I don't think he would suffer eternal damnation for it.

I agree with SJJ 100%. I've observed the shock a loss like this has on a community, and SJJ very elequaintly puts this topic into perspective. Well put my friend, it couldn't be said any better.

[Fone Bone]

That is between the person who committed suicide and God.

I'm a little sick of people being so judgemental and passing off their personal beliefs as holy. Come back to me when you've actually talked to God and know what His divine plans for humanity are.

[Zebi]

That is between the person who committed suicide and God.

I'm a little sick of people being so judgemental and passing off their personal beliefs as holy. Come back to me when you've actually talked to God and know what His divine plans for humanity are.
I definitely agree with you, Fone Bone. What I posted earlier are my beliefs about what would likely happen to someone who has committed suicide; however, no one but the Divine truly knows what happens to each one of us after death. I would like to believe that the Divine (whether you address it as God, Jesus, the Goddess, etc.) is a lot more forgiving and loving than we can possibly understand.

[The Landstander]

Though I'll admit I'm not a religious person, I'll just interject a story:

I had a cousin, a local musician (though on his way up). And a great guy; worked with a LOT of charities, very nice in general. He was a religious person as well, even had some songs about God in his music. At one point he even worked with Mother Theresa for a few months as part of a group.

Then, for awhile some things started going wrong for him. Then one night he got a little too drunk, went out, and killed himself.

So, even though I'm agnostic, I have a little trouble believing that if God does exist, someone like my cousin would go to hell just because of a drunk mistake like that.

Just a thought.

[Fone Bone]

I definitely agree with you, Fone Bone. What I posted earlier are my beliefs about what would likely happen to someone who has committed suicide; however, no one but the Divine truly knows what happens to each one of us after death. I would like to believe that the Divine (whether you address it as God, Jesus, the Goddess, etc.) is a lot more forgiving and loving than we can possibly understand.Yeah, but I misspoke a little. You are right, there is no proof that any one religion is correct. When I spoke of God I should have said divine being or higher power. My apologies to anyone I may have offended.

[Zebi]

When I spoke of God I should have said divine being or higher power. My apologies to anyone I may have offended.
I don't think you offended anyone at all. :) I'm just in the habit of saying "the Divine" when I talk to others about religious terms because I'm aware that others may think of the Divine in terms of God, the Holy Trinity, Jesus, Allah, or whatever. But I certainly am not offended by someone else using "God" in their posts.

[Fone Bone]

I don't think you offended anyone at all. :) I'm just in the habit of saying "the Divine" when I talk to others about religious terms because I'm aware that others may think of the Divine in terms of God, the Holy Trinity, Jesus, Allah, or whatever. But I certainly am not offended by someone else using "God" in their posts.Whew! I try to always be polite.:)

[SirLemming]

By the way, for those who aren't well-versed in the Bible, just to re-iterate a point that I'm almost 100% sure of:

THE BIBLE NEVER SAYS THAT SUICIDE TAKES AWAY YOUR SALVATION.

Really, I don't think it ever even implies it. It's a human fabrication based on a certain view of salvation and repentance. And in fact the Bible has quite a few instances of righteous self-sacrifice, although I suppose there's a difference between that and suicide. But it's still not all like, "NEVER KILL YOURSELF".

[Eddie G.]

First of all, suicide is a bad thing, and nobody should commit it for any reason whatsoever. Once again I think that is a little unfair, maybe you're right and I won't say you are. But the fact is you haven't been in every situation, you haven't lived what others lived through and I don't think it is right to say "There is no reason to do what you did" when you really have no idea what every suicide victim was going through. You're also discounting situations where someone kills himself for the sakes of others.


I'm amazed how little sympathy has been shown here for those who commit such an act. Religious lore aside, has no one any empathy for people who are driven to suicide?
:crying:

[Caffeine King]

I was taught when I went to a Catholic school (kindergarden to 5th grade I went) that suicide is bad and that you go to Hell if you do it.

But my uncle commited suicide a year ago and he was a good man and I have a hard time thinking that God sent him to Hell just because of that...

[TimTwoFace]

I'm amazed how little sympathy has been shown here for those who commit such an act. Religious lore aside, has no one any empathy for people who are driven to suicide?
I can sympathize with people who are reaching out for help because of an issue in their lives. I'd do whatever I could to help these people. But if they go ahead and kill themselves anyway, I still have no pity for that one act - no one should ever be that far gone. If they're lonely and haven't a real friend or family in the world, there are people they can call for help.

Really, suicide doesn't say anything to me except that, at least in that one instance, you were a terribly weak human being.

I know it's harsh, but I still believe it. As I said, I'd do whatever I could to make the person avoid such a horrible outcome, and usually it works; I'm all for being a warm, loving, caring person in order to help someone that is that depressed. Threatening suicide is often just an outlandish tactic just to get noticed, in case it wasn't abundantly clear already. But, at the same time, there should be nothing that should still push a person to do that.

It's harsh but that's how I see it - especially after seeing my sister going through the exact same thing a few years ago.

-Tim

[EinBebop]

They did in Dante. Are you reading that by any chance?Indeed.

[Dark Soul]

Yeah I heard that if you commit suicide you go to hell because its like taking somebody's elses life which falls under thou shall not kill. But thats just me so.

[Jade_GL]

I am going to be brief.

I had a best friend of mine commit suicide when we were both 13. I am now 22.

After a lot of thought, I would say that even if there was an afterlife, a person could not, and should not, be damned for one act if the rest of their life was spent as a good person. I think that this idea was created by church officials, not by any deity. I don't recall a *Thou shalt not kill thyself* passage in the Bible, and I doubt it's as cut and dry as a person either being in or out.

Then again, I don't really believe in anything like an afterlife at the moment, ut even when I was an avid churchgoer, I didn't think that God would be so cruel as to throw aside someone just for one sin.

[Zach]

According to the Bible, one sin and your screwed for life unless you repent to Jesus. The Bible teaches that works aren't the number 1 thing, that faith in Jesus is. However, it is said in the Bible that faith without works is dead. I believe in God and Hell, and to take your own life is like insulting God for even allowing you to live on this planet. I'm not really religious, but I do remember this stuff from church. I really don't live like christians say I should, so don't take it like i'm trying to brainwash anyone reading this. Make up your own freaking mind about religion.

[SirLemming]

Yeah I heard that if you commit suicide you go to hell because its like taking somebody's elses life which falls under thou shall not kill. But thats just me so.Indeed. But plenty of murderers go to Heaven. Well, I mean, I guess there's no proof, but most people agree on that.

[Zach]

Well, it depends on what terms the murder was commited. Like, say if you kill someone in self-defense, you will go to heaven. But if you walk up to some guy on the street, bust out your nine, and cap him in the head, then you'll go to hell.

[Scythemantis]

I despise the entire concept of heaven/hell/sin/judgement and consider it only a sick and twisted fabrication. I don't know or care what really happens when we die, there's too many possibilities to worry about any of it.

But I will say that I have heard far too many stories of people who lost a loved one and were told by christian friends/relatives/even random passersby that the person was already burning in hell for dying in sin. I have to ask - even if someone FIRMLY believes that such a thing is true, WHAT makes them think they're accomplishing anything by saying something so hideously cruel? It goes far beyond being inappropriate and straight into the realm of "completely batshit insane". They always seem to think it's somehow going to "save" whoever they're talking to, somehow NOT understanding when they've just created a new aethiest ....or gotten their face kicked in.

[SirLemming]

I'd say that anyone who doesn't believe in Heaven or Hell should probably stay away from this thread. Just a thought...
Well, it depends on what terms the murder was commited. Like, say if you kill someone in self-defense, you will go to heaven. But if you walk up to some guy on the street, bust out your nine, and cap him in the head, then you'll go to hell.I don't believe that at all. Killing someone in self-defense really isn't even "murder" in my book. I believe that even if Osama Bin Laden were to accept Jesus as his savior, he would go to Heaven. We've all done bad stuff and no Bible I've read says anything about where God draws the line between bad and REALLY bad.

[Phantasm]

According to my beliefs yes. God gave us life, ONLY he has the right to take it away.We aren't the ones to decide when we should move onto the next life.

[Fone Bone]

I despise the entire concept of heaven/hell/sin/judgement and consider it only a sick and twisted fabrication. I don't know or care what really happens when we die, there's too many possibilities to worry about any of it.

But I will say that I have heard far too many stories of people who lost a loved one and were told by christian friends/relatives/even random passersby that the person was already burning in hell for dying in sin. I have to ask - even if someone FIRMLY believes that such a thing is true, WHAT makes them think they're accomplishing anything by saying something so hideously cruel? It goes far beyond being inappropriate and straight into the realm of "completely batshit insane". They always seem to think it's somehow going to "save" whoever they're talking to, somehow NOT understanding when they've just created a new aethiest ....or gotten their face kicked in.Actually SirLemming Scythe has a point and I'm glad he made it. I don't believe athiests or agnostics should feel uncomfortable about entering this thread.

I think it is horribly cruel for people to tell families who lost a loved one to suicide that their loved one is burning in hell. In my opinion there should be a special place in hell reserved for people who are that callous and heartless.

Edit: So you know I was being snarky. Like I said before who goes to Hell is God's judgement alone and you or I have no say in the matter.

[Czar Gato]

But I will say that I have heard far too many stories of people who lost a loved one and were told by christian friends/relatives/even random passersby that the person was already burning in hell for dying in sin. I have to ask - even if someone FIRMLY believes that such a thing is true, WHAT makes them think they're accomplishing anything by saying something so hideously cruel? It goes far beyond being inappropriate and straight into the realm of "completely batshit insane". They always seem to think it's somehow going to "save" whoever they're talking to, somehow NOT understanding when they've just created a new aethiest ....or gotten their face kicked in.People like that come close to making me ashamed of being a Christian. Honestly, I don't know what possesses them to say that. I personally would much rather them say they were praying for my deceased love one, because I think prayer helps everyone even after they die, and like I said earlier, You cannot possibly know what was going on in the head of the person who just committed suicide. They could have been sick, overwhelmed with emotion, or they could have possibly even had complete reconciliation between the time the act was committed and the time they actually died.

[sun]

I'm amazed how little sympathy has been shown here for those who commit such an act. Religious lore aside, has no one any empathy for people who are driven to suicide?

Suicide is a horrible thing. Yes, it leaves a terrible bereavement on the family, a horrific hell for them, but consider how far gone a person must be to feel so little for their family to care? Imagine being so mentally ill, that even those you love no longer matter.

For many this is the state of suicide, a mental illness.

We don't damn people for depression, so we shouldn't damn them for any other form of mental illness.

Personally I believe if there is a god of any form, he'll be a little more understanding than his human scribes. Suicide, like any form of depression is a mental issue which is very hard to deal with. It's easy for those who don't suffer to judge and declare "how could he do that to his family" without trying to understand the mental state of that person.

I think as we become more learned as a species we should becoming more understanding to medical condition and human fraility. Rather than condemn it, be it by our religion or by our own opinion, we should feel pity for those who are so ill they want to take their own life.

IMO, We need to stop judging people by our standards of living and look at the issue more objectively. Christianity teaches not to judge and to show compassion, I worry when I don't see much of it going around on such an issue.

I won't be replying much to this thread as I think it's a dead topic. Like politics, it's one which people have their view and being so personal, it's unalterable. Therefore such threads just exist to try and prove our view is more relevant than someone elses. *shrug* My apologies for sounding grouchy on this, I've learned sadly that when it comes to religion and politics, there is little that changes and we tread a dull path of declaration and explanation.

I needed to add mine simply because I think it was a viewpoint needing reflection, I don't expect it to change anyone's opinion here which, if I was utterly honest, is disheartening, but not unexpected. ;)

All the best - whatever your opinion on this subject maybe. :) Again SJJ you are absolutely correct...those who suffer from that level of depression, do not need condemnation, but sympathy and understanding. Especially for those left who have no idea why. I have known 3 that have done it...A medical condition that serious, should be treated as such, rather than some sort of condemnation or "You are a sinnner," SJJ's post is well thought out, and written..Please think about it...Stuart:sweat:

[Ben]

The samurai way of life didn't clash with Christianity for quite some time. Unfortunately I'm not too knowledgeable on Japanese history and the major religious beliefs of the country - but it'd be interesting to see what that unique point of view would be.

This looks like a job for... Eastasianculturefreakman!

Anyone who's seen The Last Samurai has seen that prominent samurai defeated in battle were often allowed by their enemies to cut open their abdomens before their enemy lobbed their head off, but samurai were also ordered to commit suicide by their masters for various reasons. Often this occurred in situations where their master had been left in a tough position by another lord, and so the samurai also served as a kind of noble "fall guy" so their master didn't lose face. The most famous case is that of the "47 Ronin," the forty-seven samurai who found themselves caught between a rock and a hard place-- basically their master Asano took a swing at one of his enemies, Kira, in the shogunal palace and Asano was ordered to commit suicide and give up his realm to the government. The 47 former samurai of Asano waited to Kira to let his guard down and then they killed him in honorable revenge and in keeping with standards of loyalty to their former master. They gave themselves up and were ordered to commit suicide to atone for their crimes, even though they had done nothing wrong in the eyes of the samurai code.

The fact is that suicide as a symbolic act is not limited to samurai. It also has a long history in Confucian doctrine as a punishment and as a protest. My favorite example is the large group of Confucian Korean scholar-bureaucrats, the most intelligent and formerly the most powerful people in Korea, who committed suicide together in the middle of Seoul in 1911 IIRC to protest the Japanese occupation of the city. Another famous modern example is that of the martial reactionary author Yukio Mishima, who in 1970 barricaded himself inside the commandant's office in a Tokyo Self-Defense Forces base and committed ritual suicide to protest the loss of traditional Japanese values.

Eastasianculturefreakman, away!

[Psycho Fox]

I despise the entire concept of heaven/hell/sin/judgement and consider it only a sick and twisted fabrication. I don't know or care what really happens when we die, there's too many possibilities to worry about any of it.

But I will say that I have heard far too many stories of people who lost a loved one and were told by christian friends/relatives/even random passersby that the person was already burning in hell for dying in sin. I have to ask - even if someone FIRMLY believes that such a thing is true, WHAT makes them think they're accomplishing anything by saying something so hideously cruel? It goes far beyond being inappropriate and straight into the realm of "completely batshit insane". They always seem to think it's somehow going to "save" whoever they're talking to, somehow NOT understanding when they've just created a new aethiest ....or gotten their face kicked in.
I agree, I also don't understand why people think that if there is a hell it is there for some sort of pointless eternal torture . Since we change over time, I would think all but the most thick headed sent to hell will eventully change. Thus there has to be more complexity to an afterlife system or you'd have innocents traped in hell that figured out their sins long ago making their torture pointless.

[Elven Moon]

I don't believe in heaven or hell. So, you can't go to a place tha doesn't exist, in my opinion.

[SirLemming]

Actually SirLemming Scythe has a point and I'm glad he made it. I don't believe athiests or agnostics should feel uncomfortable about entering this thread.I wasn't specifically addressing ScytheMantis. But I'm just worried what this thread could turn into if people who don't believe in Heaven & Hell start asserting that. I see more bad than good coming from it.
I mean, sure, I don't mind if people who don't actually believe in the stuff offer their insight on said beliefs if they know something about them, but other than that it could take us into an argument that's beside the point.

[sun]

Actually SirLemming Scythe has a point and I'm glad he made it. I don't believe athiests or agnostics should feel uncomfortable about entering this thread.

I think it is horribly cruel for people to tell families who lost a loved one to suicide that their loved one is burning in hell. In my opinion there should be a special place in hell reserved for people who are that callous and heartless.

Edit: So you know I was being snarky. Like I said before who goes to Hell is God's judgement alone and you or I have no say in the matter.
Another well thought out post that I totally agree with...Stuart

[Demon_Child]

Why do you even want to think about something like that? Those people were tortured in life and now you want to know if they are tortured afterwords? Its just horrible.

As for me I don't believe in heaven or hell; so no they don't go to hell.

[Phantasm]

Why do you even want to think about something like that? Those people were tortured in life and now you want to know if they are tortured afterwords? Its just horrible.
Well...I think we can't exactly be sure if those driven to commit suicide are really 'tortured'. Isn't it possible that they are just some horribly pessimistic people who can't handle short commings of any sort?

Besides, if someone holds a firm belief in the concept of heaven and hell, it is unlikely that they would even commit such an act in the first place.So noone in any family would have to deal with people telling them about their loved one being in hell.:shrug:

[Scythemantis]

I agree, I also don't understand why people think that if there is a hell it is there for some sort of pointless eternal torture . Since we change over time, I would think all but the most thick headed sent to hell will eventully change. Thus there has to be more complexity to an afterlife system or you'd have innocents traped in hell that figured out their sins long ago making their torture pointless.
Yes, I personally I find it hard to believe that any human being, even Hitler, would really literally deserve an eternity of non-stop pain and anguish, and the idea of it being based exclusively on a person's beliefs is just too obviously fabricated to frighten people into adhering to biblical law, which may have been neccessary to maintain order in old times, but now we have a little thing called government.

If hell exists it is either temporary, unintended for human souls, or it just plain isn't all that horrible. The biggest fault is the idea of people enjoying themselves in heaven kowing that the ones they love could be writhing in agony somewhere. Heaven couldn't be pure or perfect if its inhabitants are that heartless, yet it can't be pure or perfect if they're sad about it either. It just doesn't work.

[SirLemming]

If hell exists it is either temporary, unintended for human souls, or it just plain isn't all that horrible. The biggest fault is the idea of people enjoying themselves in heaven kowing that the ones they love could be writhing in agony somewhere. Heaven couldn't be pure or perfect if its inhabitants are that heartless, yet it can't be pure or perfect if they're sad about it either. It just doesn't work.Heaven is a place without sin. Sadness, however, is not a sin.
An interesting passage in Revelations says that in Heaven "God will wipe away every tear from their eyes". As my pastor pointed out, how can God wipe away tears if nobody's crying?

[EinBebop]

An interesting passage in Revelations says that in Heaven "God will wipe away every tear from their eyes". As my pastor pointed out, how can God wipe away tears if nobody's crying?"And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away." - Revelation 21:4

[Dalamar13]

God...This thread is a real buzz kill. T_T

I don't believe people who have commited suicide go to hell. I've had two very dear friends commit suicide and both were good men. One of them had actually saved 4 peoples lives once when he was the first to come upon their car wreck. I find it hard to believe that some supreme being would punish either of them for their final act.

I have had a number of "good christians" tell me that Jeremy and Daniel are burning in hell for their transgression... Only people who have been in this same situation can even begin to fathom how angry that made me and how much it hurt me.


anyway I'm gonna go lay in the corner now... =[

[Calico]

My mother tried to kill herself a couple of years back because she suffers from a very painful disease. I'm lucky that she survived, and I don't believe in hell, but if she'd succeeded and someone tried to tell me she was 'burning for all eternity' I'd have to get very, very violent. :mad:

[Fone Bone]

Well...I think we can't exactly be sure if those driven to commit suicide are really 'tortured'. Isn't it possible that they are just some horribly pessimistic people who can't handle short commings of any sort?

Besides, if someone holds a firm belief in the concept of heaven and hell, it is unlikely that they would even commit such an act in the first place.So noone in any family would have to deal with people telling them about their loved one being in hell.:shrug:This is a VERY interesting post because it proves that you can't know what someone else is thinking. Even if you try to put yourself in someeone else's shoes you really can't. I have schizo-effective (A combination of Schizophrenia and Bi-Polar) and as hard as my therapists, councilers and DMH workers try to understand what I'm going through they really can't because they aren't suffering from it.

I was in a state hospital for four years. I don't fear hell in part because of how horrible it was. I still have nightmares though I've been out for five years. While in what me and my friend Rob lovingly call "The Bin" I knew a guy named Keith. Keith was super-nice and defended me when one of the scary patients was giving me a hard time. My friend Michelle who I met in there and am still friends with was best friends with Keith.

One night Keith escaped. He was found the next day on the hospital grounds soccer field. He had hung himself. He was gone. Dead. Michelle was devastated.

And you know what? I had been going through a similar thing. I wasn't as depressesd as he was but I knew why he did it. When you are in a state hospital you lose the will to live. You can't ever imagine getting out of it and you become despondent and hopeless. I had felt for a long while that the only way I was getting out of there was in a box.

I didn't kill myself. Michelle didn't kill herself. Keith did. And if anyone tells me he went to hell because of a chemical inbalance in his brain partnered with unbearable living conditions I will tell them to shove it. They don't know what it was like. They never will. If Christianity gives people comfort about what lies beyond this life that's fine but it isn't an excuse to be judgemental and to pretend they have a grasp on something they will never understand.

[Czar Gato]

*hugs Fone Bone* :(

[Fone Bone]

*hugs Fone Bone* :(Hugs Czar Gata right back.

Don't worry. I'm fine now.:)

[Shnay]

Well...I think we can't exactly be sure if those driven to commit suicide are really 'tortured'. Isn't it possible that they are just some horribly pessimistic people who can't handle short commings of any sort?
Maybe a few, but that's not the case behind the vast majority of suicides. I think there are a few here who really don't understand the complex medical and pyschological nature of sucide.

I didn't plan on entering this thread, because I'm not one who believes in hell, and I pretty much agree with what Sir Lemming says about who should be contributing to this particular discussion. But it's hard for me to hear repeatedly (both here and elsewhere) that those who commit suicide are selfish, weak-minded people. In some cases that's true, but overall that's a grave misinterpretation of a very serious issue.

I think I'll leave my thoughts at that.

[Eddie G.]

According to my beliefs yes. God gave us life, ONLY he has the right to take it away.We aren't the ones to decide when we should move onto the next life.But isn't that questionable, I mean really even if God exists a man who by accident falls of a cliff is not killed by God but by physics. The thing is it was God who created physics and it was God who lead that man there, if God really was planning to end this man's life. So could it not be said that suicide is just like physics, you may kill yourself but it could still be part of God's plan.


Besides, if someone holds a firm belief in the concept of heaven and hell, it is unlikely that they would even commit such an act in the first place.So noone in any family would have to deal with people telling them about their loved one being in hell.:shrug:
People kill others all the time, but they have a pretty firm belief in the justice system. I know you can find a flaw in my logic but the fact is people do lots of things knowing the consequences.

Anyway discussion of Hell and killing yourself is not complete without.
To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,

[Maxie Zeus]

Has anyone here read Graham Greene's novel The Heart of the Matter? The climax of the story turns pretty much on this issue.

The main character, Scobie, is a Catholic military policeman stationed in west Africa during World War II. He is, not to put too fine a point on it, a guilt-ridden wreck, even though he has nothing particular to feel guilt-ridden about. Mostly he's just deeply conscious of all the ways he's failed his wife, his friends, his colleagues, and the people who, as a policeman, he's supposed to protect. After taking a bribe (he needs the money to send his wife on a much-needed vacation) he winds up having an affair, and he just goes to pieces and decides to kill himself.

It's a bleak decision: He decides to do it not just to get himself out of the lives of those he think he has ruined; he chooses to kill himself because he knows it will damn him, and he feels he has disappointed God most of all. He wants to kill himself because he wants to spare God any further pain.

The novel reaches its wrenching climax when Scobie, as he prepares the fatal tablets, actually hears (or, okay, thinks he hears) God pleading with him not to go through with it: "You say love me, and yet you'll do this to me--rob me of you forever. ... So long as you live, I have hope. There's no human hopelessness like the hopelessness of God. Can't you just go on, as you are doing now?" But he pushes the voice away.

At the end, after he's killed himself, though, Greene gives it a brilliant twist. Scobie's wife observes that her late husband was a "bad Catholic." This irritates her priest: "Are you so bitter against him?" "I haven't any bitterness left." "And do you think God's likely to be more bitter than a woman?" This doesn't necessarily reverse matters, of course; Greene never comes out and says anything about the final disposition of Scobie's soul. But it's a reminder that behind all the "rules" of theology is the figure of God. It's not the "rules" that are important. It's God.

A lot of people think that God uses the rules the way a policeman uses the law, or an exclusive club uses its charter: He does everything he can to put people in jail, or to keep them out of heaven. Others think getting into heaven is like getting a credit card: if your "rating" is good enough, you'll get an unsolicited offer in the mail. On Greene's view, as far as I can tell, it's much more like getting married, with God as the psycho girl who wants you to propose and will play any dirty trick that's ever been invented to get you to pop the question. It matters less what is in the rulebook than what is in the heart--but that doesn't mean than you yourself know what is in your heart, so complacency isn't really an option.

I don't know what the correct answer is, of course. I just thought I'd toss out a complicating story.

[BLACKHEART]

This kind of talk like has always amused me so like if I am so unhappy with my life and I very miserable like killing myself would only send me to hell? What if I was in great pain and just living was hell in itself? Huh? I dunno like that just does not make any sense to me.

[SSJPabs]

This kind of talk like has always amused me so like if I am so unhappy with my life and I very miserable like killing myself would only send me to hell? What if I was in great pain and just living was hell in itself? Huh? I dunno like that just does not make any sense to me.Well the point is Hell would be worse and there'd be no escape from that...

Anyhow, I don't think suicides automatically go to hell. I'll just leave it at that.

[sun]

Maybe a few, but that's not the case behind the vast majority of suicides. I think there are a few here who really don't understand the complex medical and pyschological nature of sucide.

I didn't plan on entering this thread, because I'm not one who believes in hell, and I pretty much agree with what Sir Lemming says about who should be contributing to this particular discussion. But it's hard for me to hear repeatedly (both here and elsewhere) that those who commit suicide are selfish, weak-minded people. In some cases that's true, but overall that's a grave misinterpretation of a very serious issue.

I think I'll leave my thoughts at that.
I agree with Shnay completely...as he said those who commit suicide are said to be "weak, selfish, and weakminded people...That is not true, and only in a very small percentage, "might'' it be true..I'll end it this way..One man who did it, that I knew, went to one of the leading hopitals in the Chicago Area, begged the attending Psychiatric resident, to admit him,my friend was in very bad shape...The attending psychiatric resident, who he knew, refused...He was gone in 36 hours. He did what was right, he asked for help, but the hospital refused...That my friends is the truth about suicide...The people are sick, just as a heart patient is sick..They need help, sometimes even ask, but help is much less available now, then it was 20 years ago when this happened..It is a terrible illness, that strikes many. and is very sad...Let's let this one go. Thanks. Stuart:sweat: