"Everybody Loves Raymond" The Final Season Talkback (spoilers)

[SirLemming]

Judging by the quality of this episode, I'll probably lack the will to make talkbacks for the rest of this season, so if anyone else wants to take over, go ahead. Otherwise there just won't be talkback.

Last week's episode was a shocker. This week's episode was just a stinker. Not that the quality of it was dramatically worse, but last week just had that extra shock to gloss over the problems. And of course, both these episodes are just riding the wave of last season's badness.

For one thing... When are this season's writers going to remember that Ray and Debra have children?! I somehow missed that last week until my parents pointed it out to me (I guess they're more prone to realize something like that). For all we know, they never said good-bye to their grandparents. That's a HUGE oversight. And in this episode it continued to be an oversight. They could have added a little something to some of these scenes, as some sort of contrast to all these grumpy, unlikeable adults. But more importantly... were they with Ray and Debra, visiting their grandparents? That seems logical. Or were they at home, with a babysitter? Or with Robert and Amy? Whatever happened, I think it should have been shown or at least alluded to. Surely it wouldn't be too difficult or out-of-character to give Marie a line asking where the grandkids are, since she's always taken care of them and would be curious.

But speaking of out-of-character... Geeze. The writers don't seem to have any respect for the characters any more. They seem far more interested in working in whatever funny lines they came up with than in paying attention to the flow of the plot in relation to the characters. Debra had far too many little witty narrative asides. Raymond fell into the writing trap he's been falling into for the past few seasons. "It'll be funny if he screams annoyingly at the end of the SENTEEEEEEEEEEENCE!" Marie was an over-the-top stereotype again. Frank was okay, mainly because he didn't do much. Robert's monologue to God was just plain ridiculous, so incredibly unrealistic.
And the minor characters were also horribly written and acted. I'm referring of course to the decidedly Seinfeld-ian condo officials. They really just didn't act like real people. Their lines were mechanical comedy devices. You could practically see the writers' pens sticking in their mouths. (What the heck was up with that guy making the "whole bologna" motion? That's comedy?)

Of course, the other problem is that a lot of this comedy at the expense of the characters just wasn't funny.


Well, I can't say I expected a lot from this season. Hopefully it picks up a little bit now that the "special episodes" are over. If not, whatever. It'll be in the grave soon enough.

[Speedy Boris]

Missed tonght's episode- the TV in my apartment was being used. Oh well, doesn't sound like I missed much. I watched Star Wars Episode IV with commentary instead. :D

[Fone Bone]

This episode made me mad because Marie and Frank's behavior ruined Robert's and Amy's living situation but everyone treated them with kid gloves. Marie is a truly horrible, manipulative person who after wrecking her son and daughter-in-law's life by her alienating and mean-spirited behavior, has the nerve to blame the situation on everyone but herself. If Ray Romano truly has a mother like that, my sincerest sympathies are extended to him.

[Speedy Boris]

I didn't feel like starting a new talkback thread for this, but tonight's new episode was "Angry Sex". Ahem. Yep, "Angry Sex". So the gist of the plot is that Marie says yet another insensitive thing to Debra, and they have a fight. Debra is so angry that she can't sleep, so she might as well unleash her pent up frustration on Ray using sex. And so Ray goes and brags about how great it is to his friends. Robert is appalled, but Ray tells him he has a fat ass, and that he's a girl (Frank later reinforces this). Marie wants to apologize but Ray, addicted to the angry sex, doesn't tell Debra. Then the whole thing predictably blows up in his face. Anyway, on with the review-

It looks like even though Frank and Marie moved to a retirement home, they're still going to be appearing on every episode of the show. I guess nothing, not even a 40+ mile difference, can keep those two out of Ray & Debra's life. ;)

So-so episode- the best part was when Ray and his friends were discussing the angry sex. The parts with Ray trying to cover up the story were a bit unoriginal because they've been done SOOO many times, but there were still some laughs in there, mostly from Ray saying that by telling Debra the apology too soon would be dangerous because good can only come out of lots of pain. Like when you buy new shoes- they hurt at first but then you break them in and they feel good. Robert comments, "That made absolutely no sense." :D

In conclusion, not the funniest, but it had its moments. And it was nice that Marie actually showed some character by initiating the apology. GRADE: B-

[SirLemming]

It had a pretty good amount of funny moments (as far as new episodes go), and it overall had the makings of a good episode.

But... it was just WAY too mean-spirited. I can't believe how insensitive Raymond was. And not just neglectfully insensitive -- "potentially cause serious damage to your wife and entire family's mental health" insensitive. It started to get honestly shocking, really, at the point where Raymond started to not tell Debra about Marie's apologies and stuff. Not only was that disgustingly mean, but he's pretty stupid to think he can actually cover up all of that. Really, I'd just hate this guy if he were a real person.

It would've been a better episode if he merely took advantage of Debra's bad mood instead of actually purposely creating and prolonging her bad moods. That was just... beyond wrong. It was truly abhorrent.



The kids were once again absent from this episode. Next week's episode is called "P.T.&A." (geeze, another sexual one?), which implies that maybe the kids will be involved. Assuming it's a play on "P.T.A."

[Fone Bone]

I didn't feel like starting a new talkback thread for this, but tonight's new episode was "Angry Sex". Ahem. Yep, "Angry Sex". So the gist of the plot is that Marie says yet another insensitive thing to Debra, and they have a fight. Debra is so angry that she can't sleep, so she might as well unleash her pent up frustration on Ray using sex. And so Ray goes and brags about how great it is to his friends. Robert is appalled, but Ray tells him he has a fat ass, and that he's a girl (Frank later reinforces this). Marie wants to apologize but Ray, addicted to the angry sex, doesn't tell Debra. Then the whole thing predictably blows up in his face. Anyway, on with the review-

It looks like even though Frank and Marie moved to a retirement home, they're still going to be appearing on every episode of the show. I guess nothing, not even a 40+ mile difference, can keep those two out of Ray & Debra's life. ;)

So-so episode- the best part was when Ray and his friends were discussing the angry sex. The parts with Ray trying to cover up the story were a bit unoriginal because they've been done SOOO many times, but there were still some laughs in there, mostly from Ray saying that by telling Debra the apology too soon would be dangerous because good can only come out of lots of pain. Like when you buy new shoes- they hurt at first but then you break them in and they feel good. Robert comments, "That made absolutely no sense." :D

In conclusion, not the funniest, but it had its moments. And it was nice that Marie actually showed some character by initiating the apology. GRADE: B-
Actually Frank and Marie got kicked out of the retirement home due to their boorish behavior. They now live with Robert and Amy in their old house. (Gotta love character progression!):rolleyes:

I agree with SirLemming that Ray's behavior was pretty dispicable this episode. But really, it seems that EVERY episode one of the main characters does something hideously wrong. (It's usually Marie followed in second by Ray). I want to know why Ray and Debra don't just move far away now that Ray's a sportscaster. Robert and Amy should move too. Marie and Frank are horrible people (at least Frank's behavior is partially involluntary.)

And honestly if Ray's so horny, he should just get a grip (pun inteneded).

[Speedy Boris]

OK, I missed last week's episode. Wow, they moved in with Robert & Amy? Something told me that their departure in the season premiere wouldn't be permenant.

[SirLemming]

P.T.&A.

Another episode that could have been good with... severe changes.

The basic concept -- Ray being upset about Debra dressing suggestively -- was good, but it was introduced way too late. For almost the entire episode, Raymond looked like a malicious lying man who should've been divorced a long time ago. Especially off the heels of last week's episode, it seemed more like "Everybody Loves Satan". And it made the whole episode feel really contrived, aimless, and pointless. I mean, you know what's going to happen, with Ray's lie eventually getting found out after his continued cover-ups, and there's gotta be more to the episode than that.
Debra's reaction to the PTA's supposed comments was idiotic. Doesn't she have any self-respect? It's totally out of character. With this and a lot of other aspects of the episodes it really seems like the writers are willing to sacrifice character to get laughs. But they don't NEED to. It's just not worth it. The episode could have been just as funny -- and much, much funnier -- without being so unfaithful to the characters.
Amy was brainless and overacted in this episode. Completely worthless.

Like the past episode or two, there have been a few more laughs than last season, but the overall feeling I got from it was just... blah. Even the best laughs were pretty predictable and stupid, saved by good acting (Peter Boyle never seems to lose his touch, and almost completely survives bad writing). It's another sad case of the writers trying to cram witty lines into everything. That's not how real people are. Comedy characters are almost always more spontaneously, successfully witty than real people, but these characters really just seem to be trying too hard.


And this is the FOURTH STRAIGHT EPISODE with no sign of Ray & Debra's kids. What the heck?! There's just something very wrong with that.

Next week's episode is called "Ally's F". I wonder if they'll somehow manage to have no kids in that episode too.

[Speedy Boris]

Once again, I missed tonight's episode. That makes 2/4 this season. Oh well, doesn't sound like I missed much, once again. And this is the FOURTH STRAIGHT EPISODE with no sign of Ray & Debra's kids. What the heck?! There's just something very wrong with that. Incidentally, I made fun of the whole "kids don't appear on camera" in one of my Good, Dirty Fun scripts that was a ELR parody. Whenever the kids would come on camera, Hardyman would frantically push them into the bedroom. "Now stay there for 22 minutes!" ;)

[Fone Bone]

Ray is a horrible person. Debra should divorce him.

Bummer of an episode.

[Speedy Boris]

Tonight's episode, "Ally's F" was actually quite good. Almost a harken back to the earlier days. First off, Ally is in the episode, not just hidden off-camera the whole time (wow, hard to belive she's 13!). Second, Ray isn't horribly out of character (unless you count his psychotic discipline rant at the end, even though it was funny). Third, the Math teacher is played with hilarious disorder by Robert Joy. It's almost hard to describe, it was so good. Basically this is a teacher who can't stand 7th graders and constantly looks like he's about to explode with pent-up fury. His role was a comic joy (pun intended) to watch.

Finally, Marie & Frank are out of most of it, which is a nice breather from the amount we've been seeing them in recent seasons. And Amy, of all people, had the funniest line of the night. She was talking about how all teenagers go through a rebellious phase. Like when she was in choir, she was supposed to sing "What a friend we have in Jesus", except she said "What a friend we have in cheeses". :D

Best bit: The phone in the fridge (then Ray puts it in the freezer after hanging up)

[SirLemming]

LOL THE MATH TEACHER IS WACKY AND HAS ISSUES

Some time in recent years the gods of comedy wrote a commandment: if a minor character is really mean and psychotic and seems to have lots of "issues", it's funny. Also known as "The Soup Nazi Principle". It's a trap that all sitcoms seem to fall into in their dying phases. The segments with the Math teacher were incredibly predictable and unrealistic.

But that was only part of the episode. Overall, the episode wasn't outrageously bad, just kinda lame. And at least we finally saw the kids again.

I really don't get what caused Raymond's exagerrated, unfunny tirade at the end, though. Huh?

The problem of characters making little side-comments was diminished in this episode, but still present. Marie's comment about "I have blonde curls" was just weird and totally unnecessary. Then there was when Marie said "Don't take this as a criticism..." and then it cut to Robert saying "But brace yourself just in case." Yeah, thanks for explaining that. Geeze.

[Speedy Boris]

Some time in recent years the gods of comedy wrote a commandment: if a minor character is really mean and psychotic and seems to have lots of "issues", it's funny. Also known as "The Soup Nazi Principle". And the Soup Nazi was hilarious. Look, I don't think they should have characters like this in EVERY episode, but once in a while it's great. It's nice to be introduced to new minor characters aside from the 6 or 9 we've known for years. Besides, minor characters are almost always underwritten. Look at any of the one-shot characters from Seinfeld. Yet most of them always make me laugh. It's a trap that all sitcoms seem to fall into in their dying phases. The segments with the Math teacher were incredibly predictable and unrealistic. Unrealistic? I've known teachers who are a lot like that. Maybe not quite that extreme, but who get extremely frustrated whenever someone can't understand concepts of a subject. I even had to stay after class one time for being "bad" because I couldn't grasp reciprocals. I could relate to those scenes.

[SirLemming]

I'm not saying the Soup Nazi wasn't good (though I'm not exactly saying he was, either), but you can't write every minor character like that, which is what sitcom writers seem to be doing these days. The Soup Nazi was not an everyday person. But a lot of these minor characters are everyday people, yet they're written to be psychos. And I really just don't find it funny. It's very predictable.

[Fone Bone]

I liked this episode a lot and it was nice to see Madelyn Sweeten billed in the opening credits. Her typical teenage rants felt kind of forced but I loved how she asked Debra quietly if all boys are stupid and Debra said tentatively yet quickly "Yes."

Ray tirade at the end made sense to me. He doesn't want his daughter dating and wants her to stay a little girl forever. Nevertheless I am glad this is the last season or Ray could concievably become as annoying and overbearing as Tony Danza on Who's the Boss.
The math teacher made me laugh.

[Speedy Boris]

I realize tonight's episode, "Crazy Chin", was a repeat from Season 8, but hey, it was new to me. So feel free to, you know, discuss, as they say in this business. ;)

Anyway, not the funniest episode ever; certainly Ray was a bit much in his sarcastic remarks (jeez, he's getting as bad as Frank these days...). But I like how they explored why Robert touches food to his chin (turns out he was feeling neglected when Marie would feed Ray as a baby), and it was interesting to hear all the stories that Marie & Frank told about Ray & Robert. And of course, Debra flexes her amateur psychology muscles.

[SirLemming]

I remember not liking this episode in general, but what sticks out most to me is Debra's psychology stuff. She seemed very airheaded about that.

[SirLemming]

Boy's Therapy (200th episode?):
Started off lame, got better. It was another predictable "lie gets found out" plot, but it had a little more of a twist to it, with the good coming out of their skipping therapy. I wish they could've cut the crap and done more stuff on the level of the "accidental therapy" scene, which was very good. It had the sentimental stuff, of course, but I tend to feel that the presence of sentimental stuff spawns funnier moments in a show like this, instead of mindless gag-circuses like the first segment, which like most of the recent episodes seemed like its sole purpose was to please the audience. The hyper laugh track sure doesn't help, either.
The women unfortunately continued to be very airheaded and one-dimensional in this episode. Like when Debra and Amy ran into the kitchen squealing about the guys going into therapy. And Monica Horan is doing some unbelievably bad acting. Amy's a friggin' idiot.

[Fone Bone]

This was a good episode but the women WERE acting like morons. Being angry at Ray, Robert, and Frank because THEY wanted them in therapy is juvenile. Amy's assertion that them talking out their feelings would be "cute" just shows that she misses the point of therapy entirely. I expect this kind of thing from Marie but not from Debra and Amy.

The highlight of the episode was of course Frank's revelations on why he was so hard on the boys when they were younger as well as the startling fact that his father beat him growing up and Ray in Robert were the first in the Barone family to have that cycle broken. Unfortunately this awesome scene only made the women seem MORE petty than usual, especially since the episode ended with them believing nothing was accomplished with the guys going to the track.

A good episode none-the-less. Phillip Rosenthal episodes always tend to be great anyways. ****.

[Fone Bone]

Surprisingly sucky episode tonight. Gather ALL of the inlaws together, money in the bank, right? But no, they focused on Debra's parents. The BORING ones.

Best scene was Hank and Pat coming in at the end of the episode to find Deb's parents half naked extolling the virtues of divorce and casual sex. Man, I wish they had been in it for the whole episode. **.

[Speedy Boris]

Yeah I only caught the last 5 minutes of this one- I was watching "Best in Show" on Comedy Central for most of it (love that movie, BTW). I agree that scene with Amy's parents coming in and then quickly leaving was classic. I liked Frank's line about how he knew it was 4 AM because "it was my third pee".

Y'know, I think it says something about some divorced couples when they get back together without getting re-married. Like the entire relationship was purely sexual, and nothing (or very little) else. Makes you wonder if Debra's parents were like that...

[SirLemming]

I thought the Thanksgiving episode was pretty good, for this season. And now, at this rate, they just might put out a worthy series finale.

This episode wasn't nearly as good as the best seasons of the show, of course, but it had a few very funny moments and a good overall sense of focus. It was less gag-driven and more plot-driven.
I dread the fact that this is likely some sort of "Rob & Amy" spin-off pilot, but it was actually better than most of Rob & Amy's recent scenes as a married couple.
And the absence of the kids actually made sense in this episode. I was pleasantly surprised to see the writers actually address that issue. Or maybe I'm just reading into it too much. But whatever the purpose, Marie's point about the kids was very interesting, and fitting for the last season of the show.

Just a little bit less over-the-top stuff would have made this an on-par ELR episode. Marie's manipulativeness and favoritism was still a little too overstated. Robert ripping the thermostat out was too stupid (after all, as they emphasized quite a few times, he IS a cop), and the line about the thermostat being set to 72 would have been funny without that. Ray's delivery was over-the-top; he's become less lovable and more annoying. Many of his comedic lines would have been funnier if they were delivered with the insecure subtlety that used to make him so funny. (Regardless, his "stripper" line was hilarious.)

[Fone Bone]

It was all right. Marie was even more annoying than usual. Actually I think I liked how Debra was handled this episode. Beyond being surprised at how horrible Marie was being, just taking it all in stride. Brad Garrett overacted a lot, taking a page from Ray Romano's playbook. Is it just me or do Robert and Amy have ZERO sexual chemistry? They have great personal chemistry and they're great together but I just didn't buy them making out. A decent episode. ***1/2.

[SirLemming]

I don't really know what to say anymore. This episode created a stink that will linger over the entire Earth for centuries to come. Raymond continued to be the biggest jerk on Earth, and the other characters weren't much better. The plot constantly telegraphed itself, the gags ranged from awful to confusing, and the characters were as flat as possible. (Ironically, the most likeable character in this episode was Peggy.) I could go on, but it'd basically be the same as my comments for all the other episodes this season -- minus the positive ones.

We're in bad fanfiction territory now. Anyone could've written this crap.

Oh, and the laugh track just keeps getting more annoying. All the "awwwws" and "oooooohs" and the general exaggeration... Either they're doing a bad job with it or they're getting stupid audiences.

[Fone Bone]

Aw, it wasn't THAT bad. First off having Fred Willard describe Peter as a layabout disppointment was REALLY funny. Anytime him and Georgia Engel are on-screen the show can do no wrong.

I agree that in the second half of the show Peggy was really the only likable character. But that's not odd because I've always liked her and way she drives Ray nuts.

Stephania returning had absolutely no payoff. I can't think of a single reason for her being there, other than that this is the last season and the producers had respect for the actress who plays her.

Speaking of last season vibes MOST long running shows in their last seasons tend to have good payoffs for minor characters (remember Cheers win of the prank wars with Gary's Tavern, the return of Harry the Hat, and Andy Andy's cameo?) and it was nice to see Peter and Peggy have a happy ending. Even though I saw her walking out of his bedroom coming a mile away. ****.

[SirLemming]

Another thing that irked me about the whole Peggy thing was that they seemed to disregard the second episode with her in it. That episode gave me the feeling that Raymond understood her a little better than he did before, but in this episode it seemed like he was totally ignorant about her as a person.

[Animelee]

The episode itself wasn't bad -- the thing that irked me was definitely the audience. Even on Ray Romano's website (www.rayromano.com (http://www.rayromano.com)), he says that in the first season, the audience didn't laugh enough, and now they laugh too much. I whole-heartedly agree.

Actually, I think that the audience over-reacts to dissings and what-not. I mean, I was surprised with Stefania's arrival, and I can understand the over-reaction over that. What I couldn't understand was the audience clapping at jokes that would've generated a normal amount of laughter in previous seasons. It gives the recent episodes this, "You go girl!" type of atmosphere, if you know what I mean.

Like I said, the episode, and all recent episodes, are ruined by the audience. I thought yesterday's episode itself was bad with Raymond acting like a whiny out-of-character baby, until I heard Robert addressing his "assness" towards the end of the episode, which made me realize that the writers and actors were aware of Raymond acting weird-like. I was getting scared that he would be like this for the rest of the season. Phew. :sweat:

And, unlike Fone Bone, I did not see Peggy coming out of Peter's room coming, and I was just as surprised as the audience! I wonder what that says about my intelligence and/or imagination. :sweat:

[Fone Bone]

And, unlike Fone Bone, I did not see Peggy coming out of Peter's room coming, and I was just as surprised as the audience! I wonder what that says about my intelligence and/or imagination. :sweat:It says you should watch more TV. NOW!:D

As for the laugh track, I've always found them annoying so an audience reacting loudly to characters they've come to know and love for the past nine years is understandable. They are still nowhere NEAR as bad as Married...With Children's audience. At least they don't hoot. And at least they don't applaud everytime a major character enters a scene (see Happy Days).

I was kinda troubled that Peggy's second appearance was forgotten too SirLemming but then I remember that Ray has always been somewhat of a cretin and I buy it.;)

[SirLemming]

Started out pretty good with a solid concept, but about halfway through it went overboard. I'd rather have seen a whole episode about Debra throwing the letter out, with Ray eventually... oh, I don't know... forgiving her.

And anyone who thinks I'm too hard on the show should know that I really was prepared to overlook the character flaws in favor of the good direction the episode appeared to be heading in, but when it got to the part with Marie asking a favor in return, it was at the point where to overlook the flaws my head would have to be above the episode's atmosphere completely.

[Fone Bone]

I just can't believe Debra threw out a letter from Mohamed Ali. And then had Marie cover for her. Nothing good was going to come of that.

[Fone Bone]

Oh. My. GOD. That was HORRIBLE! I stared at the screen in dumbfounded disbelief. They FINALLY get a normal person on this show and the entire family has to be jackasses to him. I couldn't believe the bile spewing forth from these characters that at one point in time hadn't all been shrill cartoon buffoons.

JUST. SHUT. UP. 0 stars.

[SirLemming]

The final bit before the credits, with the door swinging by to reveal Marie, was AWESOME. A true classic moment. The best moment in this season, last season, or the season before.

As for everything before that... I don't know where to begin criticizing. I just kinda felt like, "I give up." It's useless to try to point out each and every thing that was wrong with the episode.

And am I the only one who felt that this episode kinda just kept going on and on and on? It was like an endless cycle of Debra apologizing, Raymond over-apologizing, and another family member coming in to make the next faux pas. I was like, geeze, just get to the point already. It was truly repetitive, which is a criticism typical of music, but not TV shows... ?

[Fone Bone]

The final bit before the credits, with the door swinging by to reveal Marie, was AWESOME. A true classic moment. The best moment in this season, last season, or the season before. I guess. I'm still not upping my grade though. Too little, too late.

As for everything before that... I don't know where to begin criticizing. I just kinda felt like, "I give up." It's useless to try to point out each and every thing that was wrong with the episode.

And am I the only one who felt that this episode kinda just kept going on and on and on? It was like an endless cycle of Debra apologizing, Raymond over-apologizing, and another family member coming in to make the next faux pas. I was like, geeze, just get to the point already. It was truly repetitive, which is a criticism typical of music, but not TV shows... ?I would have had a lot of problems with this episode had it lasted five minutes.:sweat:

[SirLemming]

I guess. I'm still not upping my grade though. Too little, too late.Oh, heck, man. I intended that as more of a fake-out than anything. I had to give props to something totally awesome, even if the rest of the episode was pointless garbage that has no business being the fifth-to-last episode of the show, or even the fifth episode of the show.

[Fone Bone]

Oh, heck, man. I intended that as more of a fake-out than anything. I had to give props to something totally awesome, even if the rest of the episode was pointless garbage that has no business being the fifth-to-last episode of the show, or even the fifth episode of the show.Whew! This goes back to me being a cretin, right?;)

[Animelee]

I thought this episode was pretty good, actually. I mean, in most episodes, isn't it always about the family standing around for twenty-two minutes and over-reacting to random flaws that are brought up by other family members, and then bringing up their flaws, etc.? This was actually the best episode in a while, and to me, it does fit in with older episodes.

I just kept feeling embarassed the entire time watching it -- embarassed about the stupid things they kept saying, and I felt really sorry for George the entire time.

[Fone Bone]

I liked this episode but Amy and Debra are horrible together. They always have these cute plans to get the men to "open up" which seem to me to be more about gossiping and being nosy than actually trying to help people.

I will miss Peter Boyle as Frank (he and Robert are the only two main cast members I will miss at this point...Well, maybe Amy too.) He was great this episode. I love how he just refused to say anything to Debra and Amy other than he was going to kill Ray and Robert.

This episode contradicts the episode where it is revealed Marie and Frank have sex at least once a week. True, a couple of years can lower a man's libido at that age but I always liked the idea that Frank was "competant" in that department especially since Ray isn't. I was disappointed that both he and Marie decided to completely forego sex for her cooking. As long as nobody else is happy, Marie wins.:shrug: ***1/2.

[SirLemming]

Holy CRAP. As Fone Bone said, Debra and Amy are a deadly combination now. And I mean deadly as in "they kill the episode". This episode started out being the best episode of the season by far -- and I guess it still is, really -- but MAN did it go downhill when Debra and Amy kicked into airhead mode, as they've often done lately. At that point I just have to stare at the screen saying, "What the heck."

[Fone Bone]

Holy CRAP. As Fone Bone said, Debra and Amy are a deadly combination now. And I mean deadly as in "they kill the episode". This episode started out being the best episode of the season by far -- and I guess it still is, really -- but MAN did it go downhill when Debra and Amy kicked into airhead mode, as they've often done lately. At that point I just have to stare at the screen saying, "What the heck."I also think there is ego-stroking involved with the both of them. They think they are better than the rest of the family so they think if they "help" with the family's problems they can prove it.

Hasn't Debra on MANY occasions said how much she hates Marie's "help"?

[SirLemming]

I also think there is ego-stroking involved with the both of them. They think they are better than the rest of the family so they think if they "help" with the family's problems they can prove it.

Hasn't Debra on MANY occasions said how much she hates Marie's "help"?Exactly. It's so out of character it isn't funny. And I do mean that as literally as possible.

[Fone Bone]

Exactly. It's so out of character it isn't funny. And I do mean that as literally as possible.They should have a psychologist do a dissertation on all of the characters in the show. The picture would probably not be pretty.

(Although I pretty much described Debra and Amy in psychological terms above I am not a professional. Although I bet I'm right.);)

[SirLemming]

(Yeah, ELR came back tonight.)

"I just wanna be close to everyone in this family."
"Why?"

Best dialogue in the episode. Other than that, it had the same problems as every other episode of this season -- bad characterization, bad dialogue, over-the-top acting, and a laugh track that enjoys all of this WAAAAAAY too much -- so it's useless to go through all of these problems in detail again. Basically, this is exactly why they didn't want to do season 9 in the first place.

The sad thing is that Robert was completely right in what he said about Raymond -- season 9 Raymond -- in this episode. "He has no soul." Unfortunately, Robert wasn't much better either.

[Fone Bone]

Ray's a jerk. I don't like him. While I do feel Debra and Robert take every opportunity to dump on him he was so mean to Amy who although is a busybody is still incredibly nice.

It's getting to the point that the only character on this show I still like is Frank. Sure, he's messed up in a lot of ways but the episode earlier in the season showed there were reasons for that. This is probably the most unlikable group of characters on TV since Seinfeld and Seinfeld made the entire cast total bastards on purpose. **.

[SirLemming]

You know, I'm starting to see a pattern here: all comedy shows should stop at season 8. Frasier peaked there -- Niles & Daphne got together during the season 7-8 cliffhanger, and season 9 was when it definitely "jumped the shark". Most people agree that The Simpsons got to its dark years in season 9. South Park is really starting to show signs of age in season 9, whereas season 8 still had some good stuff going for it. And ELR... well, in all reality it was basically dead at season 7 (and I think "Robert's Wedding", the season 7 finale, should've been the end of it all), but season 9 is the season where the show is truly wearing out its welcome. It's really just... comatose. These episodes have no value at all -- they just go by and have no effect on me whatsoever. Like I mentioned before, it's clear why they wanted to stop last season.

[Fone Bone]

Cheers broke this rule but it was an exception I feel. Friends also had a decent last couple of years. What's really perplexing about this season of Raymond is that all of the critics are saying that the show shouldn't stop because it's as good as it's ever been. Which just goes to show that TV critics don't watch this show.

[SirLemming]

I thought this was, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the best episode of the season. Now, if it were in season 5 or 6 it'd be crap, but it was pretty enjoyable. There was less overacting than there's been lately, more likeable characterization, and some actual heart to it. FINALLY. Debra and Ray do love each other. The ending, where Ray admits how he's just so attracted to Debra all the time, is the kind of thing this show's been needing for so long. And some of the stuff was just really funny, like Raymond acting seductive and most of the opening segment (trying to demonstrate the faces their wives make).
There was certainly some of that unlikeable element that's been in recent episodes, since Ray was once again trying to manipulate Debra. But they addressed it better here, and it wasn't so mean-spirited, because you actually could see where Ray was coming from and he seemed to understand the repercussions of what he was doing. It was significantly different from "Angry Sex". SIGNIFICANTLY.

A flawed episode, but really, I'm willing to overlook the flaws because I did in fact enjoy watching it. See? I'm not a total killjoy.

Oh, and Debra really should've made this episode a TV-14, man...

[Fone Bone]

I agree. This episode was awesome. Is it just me or did Ray Romano work out since the last time we saw him shirtless? And yeah, Deb is HOT. And like you said even though Ray was being manipulative we understood WHY and sympathized with him. The whole episode was just funny and actually showed Ray and Debra having affection for one another which is a rarity nowadays. I loved it. ****1/2.

[Fone Bone]

I'm honestly not sure how I felt about tonight's episode. I think having Hank be a pyromaniac was a little too out there as a believable resolution to the Pat smoking plot. I have to say Georgia Engel was hilarious tonight. When that cig was dangling out of her mouth she looked like an old waitress working at a coffee shop. I feel bad for Robert but it was IDIOTIC for him to smoke that cigarette. With his crazy family what did he THINK was going to happen once Amy smelled smoke on him?

Unfortuantely I have a feeling this is going to be the final appearances of Hank, Pat, and Peter. Unless the finale is an hour long they really won't have room to bring back EVERY character. I'm still wondering how Peter's relationship with Peggy is going though.

This was a good episode even if it stretched credibility and was a little out there. ****.

[SirLemming]

It was alright. There was some interesting character stuff towards the end. Could've been funnier. Not particularly awful.

[HellCat]

Hope no one minds me bumping this up. I've been watching the show on it's weekday premiers here (why channel 4 is relegating sitcoms to early morning I don't know) and the series finale aired today.

Generally, I was disapointed in this season. Just about every ep had the plot of "Ray or Debra does something and tries to keep it hidden from the other but they find out and all 3 Barone couples have an argument, each trying to show everybody else up in relation to the secret". Debra in particular was a very unlikeable character throughout, especially in the episode where Amy tries to bond with Rey (though Amy was perhaps just as unlikeable in the therapy ep). Towards the end though, there was some improvement and we got episodes that were slightly more creative and enjoyable (why do sitcom writers seem to think the only way to get humour is to have people constantly taking shots at one another?) I'm kinda glad they kept Peter out of most eps as he's generally annoying and unlikeable (the only ep I've liked the character in was the older one where his parents kick him out).
The final episode itself could have been any episode really. The only thing that made it seem like a closure ep was the characters showing their true feelings for once so audiences would perhaps remember them in a better light.