Mammy 2 Shoes and Jerry

[mammy2shoesfan]

I think that should make a cartoon about Mammy Two Shoes vs Jerry the Mouse. Mammy Two Shoes finally kicks Tom out HER HOUSE (I said it HER HOUSE) for good and thats were the fun begins. Mammy face would finally be revealed I would have look her like Monque (The Parkers, Queens of Comendy) and I would also have her voice her with Mammy's old speech pattern just with a 2004 twist.
I would start things off with Jerry bored because is been nothing to do without Tom around. They would some flashback clips of some Jerry's memories of Tom and then he gets a idea of how to have some fun. Next we go into Mammy's room where she is shown sleeping. Jerry stands on her bed making all types of noise to wake her up but the noise is drown out by her loud snoring. Jerry is then knocked off her bed by one of her hard snores. Jerry lands on the floor and find a needle than a lightbulb appears over his head :evil:. Takes the needle and pokes Mammy's foot that is sticking out of the covers. She jumps up in the air hits head on the celing and lands on the floor. A dazed Mammy opens her eyes to see Jerry stareing her in the face she jumps up and yells Jasper (as a throw back to the first T&J cartoon) Thomas save me Thomas save me and thats when she remebers he is gone and the adventures begin from there. Would anyone else like to see cartoons of Mammy Two Shoes vs Jerry.

[Hypestyle]

Ya gotta be kidding:eek:

Mammy as a character is best left buried... original hattie mcdaniel voice or not, that whole era was hardly role models for today.. They'd just as soon bring back Coal Black & the Sebben Dwarves--
http://www.toontracker.com/coalblack/coalblack.htm

....so do those Tom & Jerry DVD's have those eps at all.. do they use the original voice track or the revised one?

[Prism]

I seriously doubt that Mammy TwoShoes was that bad of a stereotype. She was an authority figure who more then likely owned that home and didn't seem to take any guff off of anyone. How anyone could call that negative is beyond me.

[Lost_July]

I seriously doubt that Mammy TwoShoes was that bad of a stereotype. She was an authority figure who more then likely owned that home and didn't seem to take any guff off of anyone. How anyone could call that negative is beyond me.

Mainly people think that because of her name and the era that the cartoons were made in and who they were made by. But I do see where you're coming from.....

[Brainatra]

Don't know about other people of African descenet, but I'd sooner leave her, as the other poster said, buried in the past with similar stereotypes of African-Americans at the time.

As for owning such a nice house, it *might* be possible (esp. judging from the cartoon where she's at a party and leaves Tom alone with Jerry wreaking havok), though given the stereotypes of African-Americans in 1940's entertainment/the limited roles they were offered (for women, as maids or, well, "mammys" [caretakers for White families and their children]; for men, janitors, servents, train porters, ditch-diggers, musicians, and other marginal roles---all said roles with the actors speaking with a "Mammy-in-'Gone With the Wind'"/"Amos and Andy" dialect; no James Earl Jones-well spokenness for this era's Hollywood) and the general atittudes of White Americans toward Blacks in the 1940's in general (including, well, Hollywood movie/cartoon producers) as being, well, poor and "unimportant" (among the more *printable* things), I'd doubt it.

Such stereotypes toward African-Americans (and of course everyone else who wasn't White) in entertainment as listed above were heavily common in entertainment in the late 19th century and the early half of the 20th century, but started to lessen (somewhat) in the 1950's, as the civil rights movement picked up steam and the NAACP flexing enough muscle to get stuff like "Amos and Andy" off television (it was turned from a radio show into a TV show for two seasons in the early 50's, with Black actors playing the parts [vs. the white actors on the long-running radio show]; reruns were offered by CBS for syndication up to the early-to-mid-60's or so, after which no station would be caught dead rerunning the show...). There's plenty of children's toys, puzzles, books, cookie jars, etc. with various by-today's-standards grotesque Black stereotypes depicted during the first half of the 20th century, but generally weren't given a second thought.

Re: Well-off-Blacks: Of course, there are some examples of somewhat- or very-well-off African-Americans during the 1940's (though of course, they almost all lived in the segregated Black neighborhoods all cities had at the time), and the wealthier ones' influence on their communities. Still, most Blacks of the 1940's definitely didn't dress the way Mammy did unless they were, well, on-duty as maids or whatever for someone else---rather different from the old photos I've seen of my grandmother. ;-)

As for bringing her back in new episodes, you'd have just as much luck bringing back "Amos and Andy", frankly...

-B.
Who still doesn't much like "Tom and Jerry", though not for reasons related to ethnic stereotyping...

[mammy2shoesfan]

As a Black American (Haitian American to be exact) I never felt anything negative about the character matter of fact I was happy to see a black character on TV. As I understand a black woman did her voice and there are people that talk that way am I right or wrong. Maybe not all the time at work they may speak proper as we all should but at home you speak the way that’s most comfortable to them right. As far as dress she wears a one piece dress with a smock how many white 50 TV moms wear that. As far as negative stereotypes I think that they are on TV right now ever see that silly a**show on Fox Meth and Red (I love Methodman and Redman to do death but that show needs to go) and I could think of some more just as dumb or worse (haven't seen Soleplane yet but the commercials make that movie look like the worst in stereotyping). So I think Mammy 2 shoes needs to brought in the new century with her own show showing that you can have Blacks in cartoons doing slapstick humor without any of the negative feelings that may have existed in the 1940s. Anyway the way they shows blacks in cartoons are pretty corny to bad (Proud family to me is pretty hit or miss) but (Staticshock was good) that’s a problem with cartoons since the mid nineties. I think its time to go back to the old school style of animation.

[mammy2shoesfan]

Ya gotta be kidding:eek:

Mammy as a character is best left buried... original hattie mcdaniel voice or not, that whole era was hardly role models for today.. They'd just as soon bring back Coal Black & the Sebben Dwarves--
http://www.toontracker.com/coalblack/coalblack.htm


I recenty had a chance to see Coalblack to see if it was has racist as I heard it was and to my surprise I didn't even find anything I find offensive at all. All black cast and good jazzy feel. IMHO I think people should stop trying to be so PC all the time and just enjoy some things for what they are entertainment and if something offends you there is always a simple cure for that turn the channel until its off (its really that easy). The way things are going one day Fred Flintstone will be found offensive.

[STARTOUNZ]

The way things are going one day Fred Flintstone will be found offensive.He probably is, but more for being a sexist than racist. If you remember the episode where Wilma worked for the Rockenspihel company, Fred was angry with her for taking the job and having his dinner broadcast on television instead of on his table. One scene has him openly saying "A woman's place is in the kitchen!" Sure bet the ladies would take offense to that statement. I still liked that episode mainly because of that Rockensphiel song. For a while, I couldn't get if out of my head! :p

The Flintstones did make some progress in terms of having black characters on their shows. A very small number were seen on the 80's Saturday morning series, one of which was unfortunately a stone age version of O.J. Simpson (I think it was O.J. Simpstone here) making a guest appearance offering some health tips. :o But more notably, the Flintstone Kids had a recurring character named Philo Quartz, the brainy son of a police detective and was one of the few stone agers who actually wore shoes. He indeed followed his father's footsteps as an adult Philo was featured in the 90's Flintstones Christmas Carol as a police officer with a couple of minutes of screen time. And IIRC, the Captain Caveman and Son segments of the Flintstone Kids had a black woman as the town's mayor.

And in regard to the Mammy 2 Shoes character, I'd rather leave her in the past and move forward to more positive black characters. Frankly, I don't understand your obsession with her, especially since her face wasn't even seen in the T&J cartoon. It's overdue that the media move beyond the southern and ghetto stereotypes and bring in a wider variety of black characters on prime time TV as well as cartoons. Significant progress was made with shows like The Cosby Show, A Different World, and Living Single. And in relation to one of your other topics, there are intelligent cartoons like Static Shock that is black-dominant, as well as smart female characters like Valerie on Josie and the Pussycats, Dee Dee on Captain Caveman and the Teen Angels, as well as the sharp and sassy Numbuh 5 on Codename: Kids Next Door. Now that we're in the 21st century, it's more important to move forward (not backward) in getting more of the latter types of characters on cartoons and prime time than the aforementioned Mammy 2 Shoes. :)

[mammy2shoesfan]

Why can't we have all types and not just the ones that are just to perfect. I'm cool with Valerie and Dee Dee character types but they all shouldn't be modeled after them because there are a more than few black Bubbles (Jabberjaw) running around. What I'm saying in the 21 century there is room to show all types of characters cause there are and it would get boring to see the same "postive" character (whatever that really means anyway) all the time.
My obsession with her I didnt know that I had one I'm just a fan. As far as the no face thing I don't believe they ever showed Nanny's face (Muppet Babies) does that make her any less of a character and for the record they showed Mammy2shoe's chin in on ep and her whole body in another.

[Brainatra]

>>He probably is, but more for being a sexist than racist. If you remember the episode where Wilma worked for the Rockenspihel company, Fred was angry with her for taking the job and having his dinner broadcast on television instead of on his table. One scene has him openly saying "A woman's place is in the kitchen!" Sure bet the ladies would take offense to that statement. I still liked that episode mainly because of that Rockensphiel song. For a while, I couldn't get if out of my head! :p
<<

Actually, there's several episodes where Fred tells Wilma that "a woman's place is in the home".... which, I sadly suspect, probably made the Flintstones a more "realistic" depiction of America's attitudes toward sex roles in 60's society (pre-"women's liberation" at the end of the decade/the 70's) than its live-action "Donna Reed" counterparts of the early-to-mid 60's.

The spinoffs of the original show have shown Wilma in various paying jobs (besides the ever-generic volunteer work for the "women's auxiliary club." "Auxiliary" to *what*, I wonder?!). IIRC:

- "Little Big League": Wilma becomes a baseball player (briefly).

- "The Flintstones Comedy Show" (early 80's): Wilma and Betty are reporters for Bedrock's "Daily Granite" newspaper (working for "Lou Granite"---an analog to "Mary Tyler Moore" character Lou Grant, who had his own spinoff airing at the time where he was an editor of a paper). Capt. Caveman (in his secret identity) worked alongside them.

- "I Yabba Dabba Do" and "Hollyrock-a-bye Baby" (and presumably "Flintstone Family Christmas" as well): Wilma and Betty, in a manner similar to the "Blondie" comic strip's plotline of the early 90's, start their own catering business (no doubt Rockenspiel's experience and the 25 or so ensusing years of feeding Fred helped Wilma gain experience for this job!).


>>The Flintstones did make some progress in terms of having black characters on their shows. A very small number were seen on the 80's Saturday morning series, one of which was unfortunately a stone age version of O.J. Simpson (I think it was O.J. Simpstone here) making a guest appearance offering some health tips. :o

Well, OJ *was* still known as a retired football star in the 80's---and respected as such. Enough to get in those "Naked Gun" movies (which are now, erm, "different" to watch...).

>>
But more notably, the Flintstone Kids had a recurring character named Philo Quartz, the brainy son of a police detective and was one of the few stone agers who actually wore shoes.<<

I recall he had a big-screen TV in his bedroom (and a bust of "Albert Einstone").

>> He indeed followed his father's footsteps as an adult Philo was featured in the 90's Flintstones Christmas Carol as a police officer with a couple of minutes of screen time. And IIRC, the Captain Caveman and Son segments of the Flintstone Kids had a black woman as the town's mayor.
<<

Since I'd hold that the "Flintstone Kids" mostly "doesn't count" (vs. the original series), I'd assume that Fred met Philo either as a kid or an adult, but not Wilma or Betty, while Philo still had his usual personality. Still, it surprises me to see that he grew up to become a policeman (then again, Barry "the Flash" Allen was a "police scientist"...). Of course, there's the remote possibility of the Philo Fred was with in the Christmas special was an now-older version of Philo's dad (if Philo's a "junior"), but that's quite doubtful.

Yep, in the Capt. Caveman shorts, the town's mayor was a black woman.


>>And in regard to the Mammy 2 Shoes character, I'd rather leave her in the past and move forward to more positive black characters. Frankly, I don't understand your obsession with her, especially since her face wasn't even seen in the T&J cartoon. It's overdue that the media move beyond the southern and ghetto stereotypes and bring in a wider variety of black characters on prime time TV as well as cartoons. Significant progress was made with shows like The Cosby Show, A Different World, and Living Single. And in relation to one of your other topics, there are intelligent cartoons like Static Shock that is black-dominant, as well as smart female characters like Valerie on Josie and the Pussycats, Dee Dee on Captain Caveman and the Teen Angels, as well as the sharp and sassy Numbuh 5 on Codename: Kids Next Door. Now that we're in the 21st century, it's more important to move forward (not backward) in getting more of the latter types of characters on cartoons and prime time than the aforementioned Mammy 2 Shoes. :)[/QUOTE]
<<

What you said.

While there's room for Black characters with negative personality traits, I'd wager there's a difference between, say, a Black villain Batman faces off against or whatever and a character with heavy "baggage" of being from the days of Blacks depicted as grotesque stereotypes (and the connotations to the attitudes of society of the time)---along with a name like "Mammy" to boot (never mind that even Hanna and Barbera ditched her by the 50's for that generic-"Dennis the Menace parents"-esque white married couple, while keeping Spike, Tyke, and other supporting characters).

Granted, "Soul Plane" (which looks really really stupid---and doesn't do much for , judging from the promos, depicting black gays as anything other than "sissies") isn't helping, but it's a completely different world (no pun intended) today for Blacks in entertainment vs. the days when White actors depicted the characters on the "Amos and Andy" radio show...


Plus, the last thing Time-Warner needs is the massive media backlash for such a decision. ;-)

-B.

[STARTOUNZ]

Since I'd hold that the "Flintstone Kids" mostly "doesn't count" (vs. the original series), I'd assume that Fred met Philo either as a kid or an adult, but not Wilma or Betty, while Philo still had his usual personality. Still, it surprises me to see that he grew up to become a policeman (then again, Barry "the Flash" Allen was a "police scientist"...). Of course, there's the remote possibility of the Philo Fred was with in the Christmas special was an now-older version of Philo's dad (if Philo's a "junior"), but that's quite doubtful.

Well, to me, Fred and Philo looked to be about the same age. Since Pebbles was a toddler in the Christmas Carol movie, they likely would be in the mid-to-late 30's. If it were Philo's father, he'd be in his 50s or 60s and probably might have retired from the police force by then.


While there's room for Black characters with negative personality traits, I'd wager there's a difference between, say, a Black villain Batman faces off against or whatever and a character with heavy "baggage" of being from the days of Blacks depicted as grotesque stereotypes

There have a few interesting black villains featured on certain cartoons in recent years. Among them were Armory, who was featured in the Batman Beyond series. He didn't start off as such as he was a top notch executive who married the mother of one of Terry's friends. But when his company started going into the red and he lost his job, he resorted to theft as a means of maintaining the high income life for his new family. Utilizing his technical skill, he built a high-tech armored suit and used various sophisticated weapons to pull off a number of robberies before Terry stopped him. Another good villain would be Cree, Numbuh 5's older sister on Codename: Kids Next Door. A former KND herself, she defected to the dark side, teaming up with "Father" in an effort to bring down the organization. Considering she has beauty as well as brains, her appearances on the show are always a treat whenever they come. ;) You could also include the various villains featured on Static Shock, in particular Ebon (the shadow metahuman), who's become the hero's main nemesis over the course of the series.

[mammy2shoesfan]

Explain to me what is so negtive about Mammy2shoes. I say its her house, she may have been orignally a house keeper or maid but whats really wrong with that. So being a maid or housekeeper is a negtive thing ok. She spoke with a southern accent so for everyone that is black who speaks with a southern accent is negtive even better. The only negtive thing that I can think of is that there is a mouse in her house.

I remeber the Cop and Mayor from Flintstone Kids. I'm glad that they even bothered to show a Black Woman Mayor. I really wish that they played more of that early 80s Flintstone's show because I didnt see it growing up and from what I've seen of it has been chopped up.

[Brainatra]

>>Explain to me what is so negtive about Mammy2shoes. <<

Well, besides what I said above (basically, just another tacky ethnic/racist stereotype from the "Jim Crow" days)...

>> I say its her house, she may have been orignally a house keeper or maid but whats really wrong with that. So being a maid or housekeeper is a negtive thing ok. <<

Uh, I never said that. What I was trying to say was that at the time her cartoons were made, literally *every* depiction in the mainstream world of the day---- radio, comic books, comic strips, children's books, children's toys, movies, etc.--- depicted Blacks as being low-level servants to Whites, when not being stereotyped as being lazy, clueless dolts, or only talented at singing and dancing. Mammy Two-Shoes was just another character in this line of attitude/thought, no different and with no more thought put into her by the animators than the depictions of Japanese during World War II in entertainment (or of Chinese running laundromats/etc.), and just as one-dimensional (esp. since the real stars of her shorts were Tom and Jerry---she was just there anyway to set up the conditions of the plot: "don't break the vase/mess up the house"/whatever)...

I think the amusing movie "Cats Don't Dance" from WB a few years back was making thinly-veiled references to this state for Black actors/actresses (no matter how excellent they really were) being forced into limited/stereotypical roles by mainstream society.


>> She spoke with a southern accent so for everyone that is black who speaks with a southern accent is negtive even better.<<

Uh, no. Wouldn't call it "southern" as much as "stereotyped Black English dialect", a la all Chinese depictions mentioned above speaking "pidgin English" (aka the "ah-so" mode of talk), or the way the Black actors/actresses were forced to talk when they had speaking bits at all in movies of the day (no matter how well-spoken or talented they were in real life)...


>> The only negtive thing that I can think of is that there is a mouse in her house.
<<

That, I'll agree with (then again, I kept wishing for someone to call in the Orkin Man on Jerry's sorry self----and/or ship "man's best friend" Spike off to one of those animal shelters that *don't* have "no-kill" policies. Yeah, so I never liked "Tom and Jerry" much to begin with, so sue me...). ;-)


>>I remeber the Cop and Mayor from Flintstone Kids. I'm glad that they even bothered to show a Black Woman Mayor. I really wish that they played more of that early 80s Flintstone's show because I didnt see it growing up and from what I've seen of it has been chopped up.<<

I saw it when it was originally on TV--and since it was a 90-minute show (which was the main gimmick in the late 70's and early 80's to hold onto audiences as much as possible/avoid the fact that they were running low on ideas for new shows---until the Smurfs came along anyway and stirred things up...), that's why it's probably chopped up.

The last time I saw this show was, as noted in my Flintstones timeline thread posting, a mid-90's Univision Spanish airing. Given my Spanish skills, it wasn't the easiest viewing experience, but I do note that the stupid "rock" puns don't translate well ("Los Frankenpiedras" are "The Frankenstones"... "piedra" is Spanish for "stone"... (shrug)). :-)

-B.

[Brainatra]

>>Since I'd hold that the "Flintstone Kids" mostly "doesn't count" (vs. the original series), I'd assume that Fred met Philo either as a kid or an adult, but not Wilma or Betty, while Philo still had his usual personality. Still, it surprises me to see that he grew up to become a policeman (then again, Barry "the Flash" Allen was a "police scientist"...). Of course, there's the remote possibility of the Philo Fred was with in the Christmas special was an now-older version of Philo's dad (if Philo's a "junior"), but that's quite doubtful.

Well, to me, Fred and Philo looked to be about the same age. Since Pebbles was a toddler in the Christmas Carol movie, they likely would be in the mid-to-late 30's. If it were Philo's father, he'd be in his 50s or 60s and probably might have retired from the police force by then.
<<

Valid point re: Philo's dad's age by the point in time Pebbles is a toddler.

Of course, in the 90's movies, I figure Fred, Barney, Betty, and Wilma had to be in their mid-to-late 50's at the *youngest* by my logic (probably mid-to-late 30's in the original series + 20-25 years of time passing until the two movies), and Fred was still plugging away in the quarry (for an apparently-still-not-retired Mr. Slate, who'd probably have to be even older than that...though I'd assume CEOs don't necessarily call it quits automatically at age 65, I suppose.)...

Still, wonder why someone of Philo's intellect wasn't working behind a desk somewhere, specifically in whatever Bedrock's prehistoric equivalent of a forensics lab was (the usual excuse by modern writers for what Barry "The Flash" Allen's job was, vs. his old generic "police scientist" description). Not saying beat cops are dumb by any means, of course, just wondering why he was stuck watching for people running red lights in that special (though I guess if he were behind a desk, we'd get yet another "Fred gets arrested and hauled to Bedrock City Jail" plotline as the only way to involve Mr. Quartz in that show :-) ).

Besides, just think of it---a prehistoric "CSI: Bedrock." Plots about solving mysteries with only dinosaur footprints to go on, uh, the mystery of why a mammoth hunt went horribly wrong, and of course---the inevitable spinoffs: "CSI: Orbit City".... "CSI: The Scooby Gang"... "CSI: Townsville"... etc. etc. etc. ;-)

Re: Black villains:

Guess most of "Static Shock"'s various baddies would qualify. Not a fan of KND, so can't comment on there...

-B.

[Steve Carras]

Meant to reply a few days ago but somehow typing in here was disenabled ever though I was still able to post..:)

Anyway I hope the poster some messages ago regarding JABBERJAW's black Bubbles meant a black version thereof since the character's a white blonde..:) (and perpetuating likwe Melody of JOSIE which DID have an early day HB black who (MELODY) ALSO promoted a sterero--that of the dumb blonde..pish! I'm listeting to Nop Doubt and Gwen Stefani of the group is NOIT a dumb blonde..just somewhat er, ditsy!)

[mammy2shoesfan]

I don't understand but what I remember saying there is even room for a black version of Bubbles. Now when did I say anything about being a dumb blond I just meant most shows have at least one dumb/disty character right. I used Bubbles from Jabberjaw at the time because she was the one I could have thought of but there are plent other characters that would have fit, Shaggy, Wheelie (Transformers), Boozka, Clumsy Smurf, etc. So no where was I singleing out blonds notice that all ones named where male so I wouldnt be called a sexist there are some pretty dumb/disty guys all I have to do is look at my brother for example.