Windows free computer lab

[Psycho Fox]

Here is a article( A Computer Lab with No Windows, Part I (http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=7418) ) that talks about a school computer lab in Manitoba that completly done away with Windows which I think is a good idea not only for the reasons in the article of cheaper hardware and adminiteration but it would easiler for students to learn Windows after learning Unix then learning Unix after learning Windows.

[SlyBoy]

Here is a article( A Computer Lab with No Windows, Part I (http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=7418) ) that talks about a school computer lab in Manitoba that completly done away with Windows which I think is a good idea not only for the reasons in the article of cheaper hardware and adminiteration but it would easiler for students to learn Windows after learning Unix then learning Unix after learning Windows.
Urge to kill rising... :D

[Magwheel]

hey, that's great! Kudos to Mr. Leung. Besides the basic fact that it's linux, and his school's getting the benefits that are inherent to that, the idea of thin clients, and having all the work done on the server, is really cool, since I personally expected to see a bunch of common linux boxes (I'm a newbie to linux setups, though). AND the fact that they're so cheap and readily available is nice, too. I hate to see "obsolete" hardware go to waste.

The LinuxK12 project is intriguing. I wonder how widespread it already is (probably not very :shrug:, but I haven't looked into it yet) and, more importatly, how long it will take for this or a similar trend to spread. Linux in the classroom... this will some day make me want to masquerade as a teenager and go back to high school. Or maybe not. :p

Can't wait for part II

[zmanjz]

University of Delaware had X-terminals in all their computer labs

(Terminals that accessed a huge Unix mainframe.)

in 1999, they replaced these with Windows machines.

I had to use unix for a year.

I hated it.

Now I hate huge soulless companies (MS) as much as the next guy, but from my personal experience Windows XP is the best user operating system ever.

I'm not a Programmer. I stopped taking CISC classes after I discovered that I hated C++ (Pascal and C were fun, but too simplistic and limited)

I'm a Power user, and I still remember most of my old MSDOS v 5.0 text commands. I was truly angry when MS did away with the DOS background in WinME.


But lets be realistic here. I'm above average and I dislike most non-XP Opsystems.

Most people are neither like me NOR are they like Programmers. They are regular people who simply want the computer to work and do what they want it to do. Forcing students to learn an operating system that has no use in the real world (I consider Computer Programmers to live within a closed off sub-set of reality called "Fun Land") just seems wrong from a useful skills perspective.

So unless this school is using these systems ONLY for future IT professionals/hobbyists, I believe that this is a bad Idea.


(Now don't get me wrong. I like the Idea of having options. I learned C and Pascal in Highschool on systems so primitive that they had no OS other than their chip bios, and that taught me alot about computers... BUT non-windows computer classes were ELECTIVES. the other students were not required to learn complex programming or user techniques.)


IMHO Unix/Linus systems are great for certain people. Just like a manual transmission. I like knowing how to drive both, but I CHOOSE to drive automatic because it's less to think about. I have some gear-head friends that ONLY drive stick, and I have some friends that are afraid to even touch a stickshift.

so inconclusion of my rant, I dislike making lower education students learn on a Non windows system.

Now back to my study of Bourjaily v. US (ALL NIGHTER BABY) (It's the sleep deprivation that makes me cranky.)

[Psycho Fox]

But lets be realistic here. I'm above average and I dislike most non-XP Opsystems.

Most people are neither like me NOR are they like Programmers. They are regular people who simply want the computer to work and do what they want it to do. Forcing students to learn an operating system that has no use in the real world (I consider Computer Programmers to live within a closed off sub-set of reality called "Fun Land") just seems wrong from a useful skills perspective.

You can use Linux for a regular desktop beside there is the problem what do you teach them, MacOS, OS/2, AmigaOS,MorphOS,BeOS,Geos,GEM, there is alot of desktop OSs and the school can't assume that you will find your self infront of a Windows machine. Buy using *nix it is free and if you can work on it then you can work on anything from OS/2 to MacOS.

Besides like the article said students that were introduced on Windows are computer illeterate they only know windows even if you sit them infront of a different version of Windows they are lost while people introduced on *nix can easily port what they learn to other systems. I remeber tutoring people and they learned on Win98 and I have Win2000 via emulation and at first they go crazy cause they just memorized Win98 they didn't really learn how to use it and got confused just by the idea of seeing the Windows desktop in a Linux window while people that used any other OS are not spooked by it.


IMHO Unix/Linus systems are great for certain people. Just like a manual transmission. I like knowing how to drive both, but I CHOOSE to drive automatic because it's less to think about. I have some gear-head friends that ONLY drive stick, and I have some friends that are afraid to even touch a stickshift.
If that the case then OpenBeOs can be used for the people that don't want to think while still giving cheaper admin costs.

so inconclusion of my rant, I dislike making lower education students learn on a Non windows system.
I don't think tax dollars should force people to learn a commercial OS when there is perfectly good free OS out there and hey if people come out of school with a BeOS and *nix experisnce they might have a different view of Windows and just run a BeOS or *nix box at home and we can finally get rid of Winsucks

Also when I went to HighSchool I was using a Amiga and becouse of then having Windows as a standard I had to dish out for a Dos card for the thing where if they went for *nix or BeOS I could have just partitioned my HD and have it as another OS.

[Lucky Bob]

No fanboyism here, just fact, right?

"Yhea". :D

But seriously, like I've said many times over, other OSes are good, but not great. In fact, I've yet to find one that is. Including Windows.

I have been leaning toward Linux, lately, since I find the movement itself fascinating. But from my experience with Linux, there's still a lot of stuff that needs to be ironed out. I've spent a lot of time with Red Hat 9 trying to resolve compatibility issues with some of my hardware. I'm thinking about switching to Mandrake at this time, but we'll see.

Meantime, though, I'm not one to write off Windows entirely. Love it, or hate it, it's brought computing to the mainstream. I don't think that it encourages computer illiteracy. Don't forget, the mere idea of having a computer in every household is barely a decade old. Many people grew up with computers being bland one-or-two purpose machines on which they spent hours typing in facts and figures. Most of my most computer-illiterate companions today grew up with such machines and use the same archaic terms when talking about their modern personal computers. Still others recall the days in which they saw mammoth mainframes manned by guys with coke-bottle glasses and dusty labcoats. Most of THESE people have bought a computer for the first time in the last 2 years, or so.

My point is, that each OS has their good and bad points. Would I use Windows for future power computing? No. Would I use it for general gaming or quick work? Yes. Would I use Linux with the roles reversed? Yes. But I wouldn't put one above the other. I find that just as annoying, if not more so, than the bratty fanboys who used to go around finding joy in posting the word "Di$ney" in every other sentence. (Or, in modern terms, the different "Xbox is teh sux0rs!", "Nintndo pwnz j00!" discussions in the Video Games board.)

How about this. Why not let people decide on their own what OS they want on their computer? Different people have different needs, these days. And different OSes have different stregnths. And as awareness of that continues to grow, the general populace will decide accordingly. We're exiting the baby years of personal computing. It's only natural that people will get accustomed to the latest technology.

[Psycho Fox]

Meantime, though, I'm not one to write off Windows entirely. Love it, or hate it, it's brought computing to the mainstream.
That is a Myth and MS rewritting computer history Acorn, Atari and Commorder brought computering into mainstream with cheap powerful computers. MS says they made cheap computing but back in the early 80's you could get a fully functional computer for only a few hundred (Less then windows machines now) and the C64 still holds the record for most sold computer model. Don't forget MS was always eons behind is compeditors, Windows 3 was worse then GEOS that came 5 years eariler and ran on much cheaper hardware meanwhile Apple,Acron,Commodre and Atari where 2 generations ahead battleing it out for multitasking mutimedia home computer oh yes and they were devloping internet support while it took MS till 1998 5 years later again as MS in the ealy 90's though the internet would never make its way into the home. I laugh every time MS says they innovate when you have to beat them over the head with innovation before they see it.


How about this. Why not let people decide on their own what OS they want on their computer? Different people have different needs, these days. And different OSes have different stregnths. And as awareness of that continues to grow, the general populace will decide accordingly. We're exiting the baby years of personal computing. It's only natural that people will get accustomed to the latest technology.I just think that if people learned on BeOS and *nix they might expect more out of the OS. I get tired telling people that OS as functional as Windows back in the day could fully boot in less then 5 seconds on hardware less powerful then today. Even the Navy fell into the stupidity of running NT that resulted in a aircraft carrier being dead in the water due to a general protection falt. I think it is in the people best intrest to teach the youth of reliable OS before we see NT running nuclear missles.

I think people should use what ever OS they want as long its not Windows as it is obsolete technology the hurts innovation

[Lucky Bob]

...

I was going to say something, but never mind. No sense in bringing VG Board-type discussions to the Cafe.


(Internet Rule #142,783,930-526235.6321b: The fanboy's not worth it.)

[SSJPabs]

Interestingly enough, in a very poor region of Spain (where Pizzaro and Cortez were born actually) where the head of the local government is providing the populace with free copies of Linux. Since it's open source, and it costs nearly nothing to burn CD copies it's cheap. He hopes to use it to allow the regular person access to the vast library of information online.

[Magwheel]

I would agree with zmanjz, about making non-IT people use Linux, except that Linux isn't harder to learn than anything else they "force" high school students to learn, and high school students are more open to academic challenges than even young adults are ;). And when I think about it, necessary Windows skills are basically a subset of the skills you should learn in linux. Makes sense to me that learning on linux wouldn't hurt anyone. HOWEVER, I am not a professional in nor have I studied the field of "what's easier to learn after you're learned which one first". So, all we can do for the next few years is theorize. Or at least, all I can do for the next few years is theorize...

As for eradicating Windows.... I think cigarettes, air-bag theft (no joke!), and reality TV are a bigger nuisance to society, so... soon as those are gone, I'll campaign more heartily to get rid of Windows. As long as I can design the flyers and so on :D


EDIT: and yes, SSJPabs, that is interesting. I wonder how the people are doing :p

[Psycho Fox]

I would agree with zmanjz, about making non-IT people use Linux, except that Linux isn't harder to learn than anything else they "force" high school students to learn, and high school students are more open to academic challenges than even young adults are ;). And when I think about it, necessary Windows skills are basically a subset of the skills you should learn in linux. Makes sense to me that learning on linux wouldn't hurt anyone. HOWEVER, I am not a professional in nor have I studied the field of "what's easier to learn after you're learned which one first". So, all we can do for the next few years is theorize. Or at least, all I can do for the next few years is theorize...
Not only that but the school can provide a copy to any platform the students happends to have for free. I have a unix clone on my C64, okay no X11 so just command line but still a person with a old C64 could still do the assignments at home if *nix was a standard for school. It also means the school can make use of donations of such old hardware. Think how much money would be saved if they can use old Amiga 3000 UX, Archimedes A7000 or even an Acorn A4 laptops and to the students they seem as fast as their modern fast Pentium at home as the real power is in the sever not the client so the school just buys one or two big power servers.

I think it is a waste currently that the school don't want old Amiga,Acorn and Atari hardware just becouse they won't run Windows, well they can all run *nix.

[Romanesque]

University of Delaware had X-terminals in all their computer labs

(Terminals that accessed a huge Unix mainframe.)

in 1999, they replaced these with Windows machines.

I had to use unix for a year.

I hated it.

I had to put up with the same thing for three years, myself. Actually, we had plenty of labs with Windows, but most math and science courses required software on the Unix machines... and it was an engineering university, so the Unix labs were inescapable. Hate is far too mild a word to describe my feelings toward those labs. However, I wouldn't compare a relatively ancient Unix setup to a modern Linux distro, which offers a lot more in terms of usability.

Now I hate huge soulless companies (MS) as much as the next guy, but from my personal experience Windows XP is the best user operating system ever . . . I'm above average and I dislike most non-XP Opsystems.

You must be... very lucky.

I loathe WinXP, for a very simple reason. I've never seen a single installation of XP go for so much as a week without something going terribly wrong. I've wasted far too many hours trying to fix other people's XP related problems. Regular, everyday people, here. I can't imagine trying to deal with that kind of stuff every day... though I could probably make some money off of it... hmm...

Most people are neither like me NOR are they like Programmers. They are regular people who simply want the computer to work and do what they want it to do.

In other words, they want technology without responsibility. Why can't people see the potential danger in this? We've been fortunate over the last decade... the technology hasn't advanced far enough for people's ignorance to cause too much damage, but I fear for the future. I don't expect everyone to become industry-level experts, but people need to get over their "I just want it to work" attitudes now, not later.


Forcing students to learn an operating system that has no use in the real world (I consider Computer Programmers to live within a closed off sub-set of reality called "Fun Land") just seems wrong from a useful skills perspective.

With Linux gaining more ground every year, I don't think it will be too long before knowing how to use it will be a necessity. Furthermore, assuming the student's access to Linux includes the use of a decent window manager, the skills learned should translate over to basic Windows usage fairly well.

Incidentally, no, I don't believe Linux is the answer to everything... yet. There are still far too many useful Windows applications that don't have decent Linux counterparts, which keeps my time split evenly between two worlds. However, none of those applications are anything the average user would have any use for... all the basics they would need are covered by Linux. Some usability issues still need to be addressed, IMO, but hey, even Windows has it "quirks", right? ;-)

But it seems that if one uses Linux in any way at all, one's instantly labelled, making one's opinions on these matters nothing more than fanboy ramblings. Oh well...

--Romey

[SlyBoy]

That is a Myth and MS rewritting computer history Acorn, Atari and Commorder brought computering into mainstream with cheap powerful computers. MS says they made cheap computing but back in the early 80's you could get a fully functional computer for only a few hundred (Less then windows machines now) and the C64 still holds the record for most sold computer model. Don't forget MS was always eons behind is compeditors, Windows 3 was worse then GEOS that came 5 years eariler and ran on much cheaper hardware meanwhile Apple,Acron,Commodre and Atari where 2 generations ahead battleing it out for multitasking mutimedia home computer oh yes and they were devloping internet support while it took MS till 1998 5 years later again as MS in the ealy 90's though the internet would never make its way into the home. I laugh every time MS says they innovate when you have to beat them over the head with innovation before they see it.Must resist... urge... to kill...

[Lucky Bob]

But it seems that if one uses Linux in any way at all, one's instantly labelled, making one's opinions on these matters nothing more than fanboy ramblings. Oh well...

--Romey
I object.

I hope Linux does very well. In fact, I am a Linux user myself. I like it, but like yourself, I don't think it's the end-all-Great-White-Answer-to-everything. And the day it becomes such is when all computers will disappear and reincarnate themselves into something infinitely more complex.

There is nor will be such a thing as the perfect OS. There's no such thing as a perfect woman, either. But, we make do with what we have.

(It bears noting, however, that there is such a thing as the perfect car. A McClaren F1, to be precise. But I digress.)

I don't have a problem with a Linux preference, or MS preference, or what have you. What I have a problem with is people who have nothing better to do than sit around and disparage something for the sake of disparaging it. I didn't like it with the anti-Disney crowd, I don't like it with the anti- crowd, and I don't like it with the anti-Microsoft crowd.

Rather, I view it all as the natural progression of technology and the market. Keep in mind, again, that computers have only been mainstream for a VERY short amount of time. And there are growing pains along the way. As awareness of Linux and its abilities grows, so will public interest. I mean, IBM ran a Linux ad during the Super Bowl! Doesn't get much better than that.

Again, love Linux, cherish it, and whatever. I don't mind that. I like it, too, and hope to use it exclusively someday. But people posting stuff like "everyone should have a choice of OS [i]except Windows" kinda irks me. I mean, if that's not fanboyism, (or its yet-unnamed but painfully present counterpart of unadulterated hatred for a particular brand or company) I don't know what is.

[Mynd Hed]

In other words, they want technology without responsibility. Why can't people see the potential danger in this? We've been fortunate over the last decade... the technology hasn't advanced far enough for people's ignorance to cause too much damage, but I fear for the future. I don't expect everyone to become industry-level experts, but people need to get over their "I just want it to work" attitudes now, not later.
Umm, WHAT potential danger? We're talking about a desktop here, not a nuclear submarine. An operating system is a product, and just like a car or a television or a vacuum cleaner or any other product, people are going to buy the one that's easier to use. I'm sorry, I just don't see any "potential danger" in people not needing a degree in computer information systems in order send an e-mail-- other than that they might crash their own desktop, that is. Should someone need an engineering degree to operate their Honda Civic, now, too?

[SSJPabs]

Umm, WHAT potential danger? We're talking about a desktop here, not a nuclear submarine. An operating system is a product, and just like a car or a television or a vacuum cleaner or any other product, people are going to buy the one that's easier to use. I'm sorry, I just don't see any "potential danger" in people not needing a degree in computer information systems in order send an e-mail-- other than that they might crash their own desktop, that is. Should someone need an engineering degree to operate their Honda Civic, now, too?My problem with Linux users is the same for Mac users. The vast majority I've met try to convert me. If I wanted to use that operating system I would! Heh, I have nothing against learning Linux, infact we have linux labs at my university, but I have no idea how. I'm waiting until I have a free computer I can put linux on and monkey around with it without worrying about accidently deleting my registry, or causing the motherboard to burst into flames. It's funny, I have lots of computer expert friends, several even own a computer repair shop but whenever I run into a problem they always are stumped. :D

I use Win2K right now and am very pleased with it. I'll never go to XP though, I'll got to a Mac first.

Free BSD... or Linux? Which is better?

[Romanesque]

Umm, WHAT potential danger? We're talking about a desktop here, not a nuclear submarine. An operating system is a product, and just like a car or a television or a vacuum cleaner or any other product, people are going to buy the one that's easier to use.

People's cars, televisions, and vacuum cleaners typically aren't networked (yet). That's not often the case anymore with computers. People who deal with their systems on a level no deeper than "I just want it to work" are a risk.

I'm sorry, I just don't see any "potential danger" in people not needing a degree in computer information systems in order send an e-mail-- other than that they might crash their own desktop, that is.

"I don't expect everyone to become industry-level experts." --Me

You either missed or ignored that. I don't expect everyone to get engineering degrees, but I do expect them to keep themselves informed and up to date, which requires that they move beyond "I just want it to work". The same knowledge will also help them keep their systems working.

Should someone need an engineering degree to operate their Honda Civic, now, too?

I wouldn't want people on the road unless they were properly educated about their vehicle and the rules of the road (for the safety of everyone involved), and I expect some sort of equivalent for computing, even if such education is entirely voluntary.

--Romey

[Psycho Fox]

In other words, they want technology without responsibility. Why can't people see the potential danger in this? We've been fortunate over the last decade... the technology hasn't advanced far enough for people's ignorance to cause too much damage, but I fear for the future. I don't expect everyone to become industry-level experts, but people need to get over their "I just want it to work" attitudes now, not later.
true but I woner if there average person just want the computer to work why don't most people own a Mac?


With Linux gaining more ground every year, I don't think it will be too long before knowing how to use it will be a necessity. Furthermore, assuming the student's access to Linux includes the use of a decent window manager, the skills learned should translate over to basic Windows usage fairly well.
That and it takes the schools out of the OS wars as everyone just run *nix as another OS. You run Windows, simply install *nix as another OS on the machine if you have a PC incompatible with Windows like say an IYONIX running RISC OS then the student does the same think and run *nix as another OS

I hated that teachers refused PDF format and wanted word when I was a Amiga user meaning I had to convert to HTML go to a Windows machines and convert the HTML to MS Word.

Again, love Linux, cherish it, and whatever. I don't mind that. I like it, too, and hope to use it exclusively someday. But people posting stuff like "everyone should have a choice of OS except Windows" kinda irks me. I mean, if that's not fanboyism, (or its yet-unnamed but painfully present counterpart of unadulterated hatred for a particular brand or company) I don't know what is.
See MS remeber has been proven by a court that they are in fact a monoploy (the appeals are not to over turn that they are a monopoloy but MSs punishment for being one).

MS Dos was a hack of CP/M, MS stole computing processing time by hacking to mainframes while devloping Basic for the Altair. MS stole Burst's technology for Windows Media 9. Then MS goes after people bootleging MS products? Hey MS stole more then there average person that bootleged Windows and MS Office.

Microsoft makes Nintendo during the NES days look like a boy scott.

See I think the problem is a clash of the old computer users and new. Those that used Amiga,Acorn,Commodore,Atari,ect back in the day saw first hand MS distory compition in the industry and are sore about it. The people that were introduced to computing after MS distroyed compition and their PC works so they are content and never knew of the computer industry of old where MS was joke and people wondered how long before they would go belly up becouse they're products where horrible and oboslete before they hit the shelfs yet without compition the newbies don't see how crappy MS is.

[SlyBoy]

[left]true but I woner if there average person just want the computer to work why don't most people own a Mac?

That and it takes the schools out of the OS wars as everyone just run *nix as another OS. You run Windows, simply install *nix as another OS on the machine if you have a PC incompatible with Windows like say an IYONIX running RISC OS then the student does the same think and run *nix as another OS

I hated that teachers refused PDF format and wanted word when I was a Amiga user meaning I had to convert to HTML go to a Windows machines and convert the HTML to MS Word.

See MS remeber has been proven by a court that they are in fact a monoploy (the appeals are not to over turn that they are a monopoloy but MSs punishment for being one).

MS Dos was a hack of CP/M, MS stole computing processing time by hacking to mainframes while devloping Basic for the Altair. MS stole Burst's technology for Windows Media 9. Then MS goes after people bootleging MS products? Hey MS stole more then there average person that bootleged Windows and MS Office.

Microsoft makes Nintendo during the NES days look like a boy scott.

See I think the problem is a clash of the old computer users and new. Those that used Amiga,Acorn,Commodore,Atari,ect back in the day saw first hand MS distory compition in the industry and are sore about it. The people that were introduced to computing after MS distroyed compition and their PC works so they are content and never knew of the computer industry of old where MS was joke and people wondered how long before they would go belly up becouse they're products where horrible and oboslete before they hit the shelfs yet without compition the newbies don't see how crappy MS is.:mad:

You're really making my blood boil now...

[Lucky Bob]

See MS remeber has been proven by a court that they are in fact a monoploy (the appeals are not to over turn that they are a monopoloy but MSs punishment for being one).

MS Dos was a hack of CP/M, MS stole computing processing time by hacking to mainframes while devloping Basic for the Altair. MS stole Burst's technology for Windows Media 9. Then MS goes after people bootleging MS products? Hey MS stole more then there average person that bootleged Windows and MS Office.

Microsoft makes Nintendo during the NES days look like a boy scott.

See I think the problem is a clash of the old computer users and new. Those that used Amiga,Acorn,Commodore,Atari,ect back in the day saw first hand MS distory compition in the industry and are sore about it. The people that were introduced to computing after MS distroyed compition and their PC works so they are content and never knew of the computer industry of old where MS was joke and people wondered how long before they would go belly up becouse they're products where horrible and oboslete before they hit the shelfs yet without compition the newbies don't see how crappy MS is.Okay, that had nothing to do with what I said, and it's pretty much another bash.

Council for the exposure of fanboys rests. :rolleyes:

[Psycho Fox]

Okay, that had nothing to do with what I said, and it's pretty much another bash.

Council for the exposure of fanboys rests. :rolleyes:Think of it this way lets say a company uses child labour for a product so then someones says boycott said company becouse they use child labour.

Well MS has a long list of unethical behavoir so some people say boycott MS becouse they eradicate choice.

[Magwheel]

The irony being, of course, that people should theoretically have the choice to choose a company which limits choice in general. So, in order to promote options, we eradicate/remove options! But if we don't eradicate this option, we might as well be making the others less valid! Oh my, what a conundrum we have on our hands!!

OS usage trends interest me, for sure.... but I forget what direction the discussion was supposed to go in (I think I used the word eradicate too much ;)). where were we? :p


EDIT: And yes, I do have to agree with Psycho Fox that MS's monopoly and ethics are annoying. That's why I use AbiWord, winamp, and editpad, and would like openoffice for XP. oh well!

[Lucky Bob]

The irony being, of course, that people should theoretically have the choice to choose a company which limits choice in general. So, in order to promote options, we eradicate/remove options! But if we don't eradicate this option, we might as well be making the others less valid! Oh my, what a conundrum we have on our hands!!

OS usage trends interest me, for sure.... but I forget what direction the discussion was supposed to go in (I think I used the word eradicate too much ;)). where were we? :p


EDIT: And yes, I do have to agree with Psycho Fox that MS's monopoly and ethics are annoying. That's why I use AbiWord, winamp, and editpad, and would like openoffice for XP. oh well!And that's the beauty of it. If you don't like Windows' default programs you can find ways to replace them. I rely heavily on open-source projects and other freeware like OpenOffice, Winamp, Foobar, CDex, The GIMP, and such. (All on Windows.) And if you don't like Windows, there's nothing stopping you from getting a system without an OS at all. In fact, some manufacturers are even providing alternative OSes. (Wal-Mart comes to mind with their Lindows deals. Dell has started to get into the Linux community, and I bet they will start making it an option soon for home PCs.) So, it all works out okay. It's just a natural progression. Despite Fox's rants to the contrary, most home users never owned a computer for serious use until Windows 95 came out and after. I know my family didn't, despite the fact that we owned a Commodore 64/128 and an Amiga before our first Windows machine, and they were little more than game machines for us for the simple fact that they were (for our needs) crap at productivity. (But they had some cool games. *sigh* Memories.)

And now, Apple has made an OS that is actually hip, and Linux is making a splash. And people are taking notice. It's just the natural progression out of the baby stage of personal computing into the next. "Monopolies" don't last forever, just long enough. Competition always will out in the end. (Case in point? Look at the history of game consoles. No matter how often there was one kid on the block, there was always another who tried fairly soon. Now look where we are.)

And I'll say it again. I don't care what OS you use any more than I care about which finger you use to pick your nose. We're talking about a bunch of bits and bytes that barely exist. In the end, they're all each just another stinkin' program. Hardly life-threatening.

My beef is with the people who have nothing better to do than to sit around and hate one particular company, and post their little crusades on internet message boards. We don't allow it with anything else, why do we allow it with this sort of discussion? By all means, I think new technologies should be talked about and discussed, but that can be done without resorting to "m$ windoze is teh s uck lololloololololol!"

But ah well. Like Admiral Ackbar said after seeing the dead mouse..."Who listens?"

[Psycho Fox]

And that's the beauty of it. If you don't like Windows' default programs you can find ways to replace them. I rely heavily on open-source projects and other freeware like OpenOffice, Winamp, Foobar, CDex, The GIMP, and such. (All on Windows.) And if you don't like Windows, there's nothing stopping you from getting a system without an OS at all. In fact, some manufacturers are even providing alternative OSes. (Wal-Mart comes to mind with their Lindows deals. Dell has started to get into the Linux community, and I bet they will start making it an option soon for home PCs.)
You still have the problem over 90% of people sit on MS products

Despite Fox's rants to the contrary, most home users never owned a computer for serious use until Windows 95 came out and after. I know my family didn't, despite the fact that we owned a Commodore 64/128 and an Amiga before our first Windows machine, and they were little more than game machines for us for the simple fact that they were (for our needs) crap at productivity. (But they had some cool games. *sigh* Memories.)
I think you might be too young I am a bit, I only used my C64 and later C128 for hosting a BBS and home work but if you look at the marketshare of the 80's the C64 was in most dorms as they were a cheap computer for students and with GEOS they could do term papers, spread sheats and anything else theachers want.

The Apple ][ was the first PC to find its way into offices and Visicalc made it a regular sight in accounting offices.

IF you look at the early years of the internet you'd notice Unix,Amiga,Mac,Atari and Acorn users dominated it back then and Windows 3.x users was a minority as they were late to get online.

Amigas were used heavly for video production and animation, the first season of Babylon 5 was done on Amigas (and the first animation on the net was done by Amigas) since Amiga the FIRST PC to do video was the Amiga and not even the big ass heavy metal machines with gobs of more computing power at first could do what the Amiga could do in 1986. The Amiga required the big boys to get their act together since after the Amiga with video toster people demanded better video workstations.

most photo booths in the late 80's and early 90's were powered by Amigas

A number of Genesis games were devloped on Amigas running Unix since Commodore made a deal with Sega.

For awhile Amiga workstation could be seen through NASA running Unix . You could also see them running hospital equipment. The London Underground use to be run on Amigas running Unix.

Alot of music in the late 80's and early was done on Amiga's and Atari's until Amiga music software made Atari's obsolete and also Mac got into the market.

The fact of the matter was while you saw the Amiga and C64 as gaming machines others saw them as workstations infact after Commodore went bankrupt in 1993 sale for the Amiga still climed as corperations wanted to get as much stock of Amiags as possible since for most the Amiga became the backbone of their operation. I don't think Disney or WB wanted Amigas just to play games and if it was good enough for them to do video&music production and animation, I think the average person could use the Amiga to balance their bank book, write letters and surf the net. It worked for me, I could surf the net while lissening to MP3s, while printing a paper something that that you couldn't do till Windows 98 and back then Windows was up to 3.11

Macs before Win95 were used in the publishing industry: comics,magazines,books,newspapers and such were done on them (and still are). OH and and for education

Again if Macs were good enough for the likes of DC and Marvel it should be good enough for there average user.

Acorns like Macs were used in schools and also in publishing just not to the extend of Macs

Atari well yhea Atari could never connect to the business world

By 1995 Amiga had Amiga OS 3.1 that was more useful the Windows 95 and if they didn't go bankrupt in 1993 they probably would be up to 4 by then. Acorn had a even more refined OS then Amiga by then and more powerful hardware. Atari was shooting it self in the foot and Mac like Amiga been there done that.

And now, Apple has made an OS that is actually hip, and Linux is making a splash. And people are taking notice. It's just the natural progression out of the baby stage of personal computing into the next. "Monopolies" don't last forever, just long enough. Competition always will out in the end. (Case in point? Look at the history of game consoles. No matter how often there was one kid on the block, there was always another who tried fairly soon. Now look where we are.)
Yes but the problem is the lack of innovation as I said Amiga workstation in 1993 with only 30MHZ was doing what you could do with a 300MHZ computer and it was far more responsive then Windows. The Acorn (now IYONIX) running RISCOS with only a 600MHZ can whip a Windows 2000 on a 2 GHZ CPU.

Also look how MS was able to kill BeOS before it even got off the ground now it is open source like Linux. MS was even able to kill OS/2 that had the backing of IBM

And I'll say it again. I don't care what OS you use any more than I care about which finger you use to pick your nose. We're talking about a bunch of bits and bytes that barely exist. In the end, they're all each just another stinkin' program. Hardly life-threatening.
But if you look at 1993 it was easier to get data around then now since back then there was standards so you can transfer data to other systems since noone owned the whole pie yet now since Windows has over 90% and are unethical there is MSs standards and the real standard.

[SlyBoy]

I think you might be too young I am a bit, I only used my C64 and later C128 for hosting a BBS and home work but if you look at the marketshare of the 80's the C64 was in most dorms as they were a cheap computer for students and with GEOS they could do term papers, spread sheats and anything else theachers want.
But you're only talking about YOU did, not what MOST people did with the C64, Atari 8-bit, etc.

[Psycho Fox]

But you're only talking about YOU did, not what MOST people did with the C64, Atari 8-bit, etc.Look, Visicac sold off the shelf as did Geos so I don't think everyone was just using they C64 to play games. GEOS a C64 OS with no real games and mostly a office OS became so popular Commodore eventully bundled it with C64s.

[Lord Dalek]

Wow, a computer lab completely linux. Back in middle school we used Apple pizzaboxes instead of windows.

[Romanesque]

But you're only talking about YOU did, not what MOST people did with the C64, Atari 8-bit, etc.

Actually... he does have a point... C64's and such weren't exactly uncommon household items. Where they were, they were used, and for many many sorts of tasks. They may not have been as common as the PC of today, but they did play a big part in getting us all there.

--Romey

[Psycho Fox]

Actually... he does have a point... C64's and such weren't exactly uncommon household items. Where they were, they were used, and for many many sorts of tasks. They may not have been as common as the PC of today, but they did play a big part in getting us all there.

--RomeyYep and you could get a C64 card for the Amiga and they were not cheap you could get a whole C64 for the cost of a C64 card (and you needed a Amiga to plug the thing in) so I don't think anyone bought them to play C64 games on their amiga they sold becouse people wanted to convert their work from C64 to the Amiga.

Of course now you can do it easily with software emulation but this was 1985.

Oh and here is the second part (http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=7419&mode=thread&order=0)